 if I were that smart, I would tell everybody that, like, I've known Nick Elon for a few years now and he is legitimately like one of the smartest people I've ever talked to. Like, in fact, I went to him after the elemending became a thing. It's been a few years now and asked him how he would fix baseball just because he worked on the grounds crew for the Cincinnati Reds for a long time. Like, baseball is his number one passion and he came up with an idea that if it ever got implemented, I think would be incredible for the game. He just explains the dynamic strike zone, right? Yeah. I think it's great. I love the dynamic strike zone and let me tell you something. If that were tried at some point in the next year or two in the Atlantic League, it would not surprise me. It's really brilliant because you'd have to swing early on the count. You wouldn't be sitting there looking for a pitch. Yeah. Exactly. Like if you want to talk about, listen, we can talk about pitch clocks all we want. If you want to get the pace of play quicker, have guys swing earlier in the count. And if you are incentivized to swing earlier in the count, it's perfect. Like it is, to me, it is a flawless idea if you have an open mind about baseball. And the fact that it expands as you get deeper in the county advantage goes back to the pitchers. Incredible. Like to me, it's a perfect idea. Now, speaking of flawless, it has not been flawless the way Rob Manfred has handled this. And we've gone back and forth. And Don seems to think that his job could be in jeopardy. I don't think it is in jeopardy. I think his job is to make the owner's money. That has not been affected. Do you believe he's in any trouble at all, Jeff? I think your read on the situation, Michael, is perfect. I think until their money is threatened, that they, the owners, his bosses are going to let Rob Manfred continue doing what he's done, which is grow the game financially. And he's been really, really good at that. Now, you can argue, and I think you can make a fair argument that the commissioner's job is not just the financial one, but it's to shepherd the game in the right direction. But let me tell you something. Right now, I know this for a fact, right now, the Los Angeles Angels, who are opening their season at home against the Houston Astros are selling more tickets. I mean, lots more tickets. And you know why? Because Dodger's fans are buying them to go down there and through the Astros. Major League Baseball now, guys, has a villain. Major League Baseball has this unbelievably beautiful storyline, instantaneously built into its season. And the idea that more people are going to be interested in baseball, whether it is for the game being better or because you have these villains out there, there is still interest. And there is a very compelling, I think argument to be made that when it's all said and done, the cheating scandal is going to have been good for baseball. That sounds horrible to say it does. Like it makes it weird to me out saying that. But I think it's true. I think because Michael said the same opinion, Jeff, I think that's kind of wishful thinking. Number one, I'm not sure how sustainable it is because eventually it's just going to go away because baseball is not going to allow it to happen. You know, because it comes down to I'm going to like June 2nd, they come to City Field. You know, Jacob DeGramme's pitching, you know, I don't need him getting thrown out in the second inning because he pitched inside. Warnings are going to be issued right away. Baseball is going to be right on top of this. So yeah, first game of series, it'll go on for a little while. Eventually it'll just peter itself out and we'll get back into the nuts and bolts of the baseball. But even during the controversies with football with the deflate gate and with spy gate, I never heard football fans saying I'm done with the sport. I'm hearing a lot about that, you know, with baseball fans. I don't know if they're telling the truth or not, but I think there's just as much a possibility. Listen, you got to be honest, Jeff, people, a lot of people are on the fence about the sport, that the game is a little bit too slow. Yeah, they're flush with cash, but attendance has been ticking down. You know, you don't want to tick off the guy that's waiting for a reason to walk away from the game. So I think it's very much up in the air. And if it does go further downward, it's it's easy to bang the commissioner, right? I mean, it's easy if he loses the owners. And if these players are upset, I'm sure owners are upset too. I'm sure the sign branders are not happy with him. I'm sure Dodger ownership is not happy with him. Nope. So if you end up losing the right owner, you can end up being out of a job. Yeah, I think I think that you make some some very fair points in there. I will say this. What we're talking about with fans saying I'm done with baseball. It's just anecdotal. And you know, it's also anecdotal. The the water cooler conversations that are happening right now where people are talking about baseball and the non baseball fans who at parties are saying, Hey, what's with this astros thing and are showing more interest in baseball? Now, again, in a controversy, but in something tangentially related to baseball, and they have in years. And and to me, the science feeling standard is almost the gateway drug into the game. And the thing that could again turn them off is the fact that the game right now just isn't what it can and should be. The game is slow. The game does have too many strikeouts. The game has all of these great athletes who I believe are better at actually playing baseball than anybody in history. And that is no disrespect to heavily and no disrespect to make the name of Babe Ruth, Henry and all of the greats of the past. But I think if you were to throw them into the game right now, we're taking a year to figure out how to help hit pitches that are, you know, 93 mile per hour sliders like nobody through 93 mile per hour fastballs outside of Walter Johnson and Bob Feller. There were a handful of guys who were throwing in the mid nineties back when you know, the golden era players were playing now. Everybody is throwing that hard. So the game itself, the athletes who are playing it are better than they've ever been. Maybe you fall in love with that watching it just one time. So you can see the dam astros. Now, there's something I think that is a real problem with this though, Jeff. As long as I've been covering the sport 35 years now, I've never seen big time athletes go on the record and destroy other athletes. I think that's an issue. I mean, Manfred has to do something about it because that's not a good look. Have you ever seen this in your time covering the sport? I'm coming up on 20 years now. I haven't seen anything anywhere close to this. Let's flash back to Alex Rodriguez, guys, when he's trying to get his 162 game suspension overturned. Alex Rodriguez now understand it was an individual decision to use performance and answered drugs. But Alex Rodriguez was not getting slimed in the public at all. And he very easily could have been by players out there. He did think ill of him, but they bit their tongues. No one's biting his tongue right now. And that is, I think that's something, Michael, that even Major League Baseball didn't anticipate when they went out and did this. I think, you know, on January 13 when Rob Manfred issued his report, the vitriol was not nearly what it is now. But over the last month, something's happened. I think players have looked at the whole of this thing and seen the Astros response to it and found it entirely insufficient. And having been here in West Palm Beach for the last 11 days, having spoken one on one with most of the Astros players who were there in 2017, I can tell you right now, they haven't been punished. They haven't been suspended. But the punishment of knowing that your professional reputation, if not ruined, is at least tarnished. That your peers whose respect matters to you as an athlete more than anything, nothing, nothing more of you than your cheer. That is something that you will carry for the rest of your life. So the idea that they've gone without punishment, I just don't buy it. Well, I mean, but they have and one thing I wanted to bring up. Every standup you do has to be in front of that 2017 World Championship sign. That's number one. And number two, why isn't that title taken away? Forget about punishing the players. Why should they be allowed to call themselves champions? Why? Number one, blame my producer, Sean Fitzgeralds for that. He's a good man. He's a great man. He's the best. One A, of course, Oberman of all people was in my ear yesterday before the live shot, telling me to lift my left arm so I could put over the top 2017 World Champion. Like he was the devil on my shoulder. Literally. And number number two, why haven't they done it yet? You know, early on, I think we had a conversation about this where I laid out the argument why you can't strip or why you shouldn't strip a team of its title. Have you changed your mind? Um, I'm thinking a lot more about it now than I am. And here's the thing, like, I am okay changing my position on something if I feel like there's compelling evidence out there to change it. I don't feel like I'm being a flip flopper. I feel like my position is never in transit. And that I want to evolve as the facts reveal themselves more. And the truth of the matter is I can see an argument for doing that now. I really can't. I talked to enough people, enough people who I respect, not people who I think are really smart and thoughtful, who believe that to be the case. And if there are smart, thoughtful people out there who believe this, then at very least I need to reconsider my position. I'm not there yet. But I can find myself getting at some point. Now, we've heard from Manfred, I think he should be done. As far as you know, defending himself and defending the ruling we've heard from the players he's talking, he's talking again tonight, by the way. Well, I think that's another one. He does, you know, he does two, two media availability this spring, one in Florida and one in Arizona. His Arizona wanted this afternoon and I trust in my media brethren out there that they're going to ask a different set of questions and that continues to push this story along. So we will hear more from him today. He continues to talk, the players continue to talk. Don't you think it's time for Tony Clark to speak? Well, Mr. Legreppa, tomorrow he may or may not be at New York Met's camp having a union meeting with the Met's. So I believe that we are going to hear from Tony Clark tomorrow. See, that's... And I'm curious, I'm curious, Don, what questions or questions do you think he should be asked? Well, I think what should be asked is you have your players red hot at the few that the perception is you're protecting because, you know, Manfred said part of the reason he didn't go after the players is because it wouldn't have worked anyway. The players association would have appealed it. I wouldn't have had a leg to stand on as far as trying to discipline the players. Well, Tony Clark's got an opportunity to answer to that and what is he playing on doing in the future if something like this happens? Because remember, they waved it for the PEDs, right? Because the many overshadowed the few. He's got the same situation here where the majority of his players are upset. So I'd like to hear what he plans on doing. Would he talk to Manfred? Would he wave, you know, appealing if he tried to go after the players? If ever the 2019 investigation was reopened, which I think there is enough evidence, Jeff, that maybe the commissioner could reopen 2019 with the buzzers, that's where I want to know is how far is he willing to defend the few at the expense of the many? Okay, so there are a few points here to be made. And I want you to think about this and I want to give you some time to think about it because I don't know that you got a good answer for this, but I would love to know what sort of evidence you believe is out there. And don't answer the show. I'm going to finish my answer. But what sort of evidence do you believe is out there that proves the investigation should be reopened to look into the buzzers? Now, getting to your earlier point about standing up for the players, the union has a legal obligation to stand up for its members and to fight for them. And as much as in his heart, Tony Clark, especially the former player, may believe that what the Astros did was completely beyond reproach, the union would cease to exist the moment it does not fight for the players. So it has to do that. And that's part and parcel with this whole thing. Now, let's get back to the buzzers. What do you know, John LaGretta, but I don't. Because long before John Boy went and posted about buzzers, myself and other reporters at ESPN were looking at them, trying to find evidence that just did not find anything substantive enough to print. But what I do find curious is when the John Boy stuff came out and the commissioner was asked about it, he said we are already an investigator, it was already part of our investigation and we didn't find anything. Yes. Now, would that have been the stance like well after as more and more video started to go around? And I can I can I can tell you I can tell you right now. I know this for a fact every player from the 2019 Astros who was interviewed was asked about buzzers. Like they were asked about specifically buzzing band-aids. Now, maybe I take that back. I don't know if it was specifically said where they're buzzing band-aids, was there wearable technology? I don't know how it was praised, but well, that's important though, right from the semantics of it because it might not have been a buzzer. It might have been something else. And I'm technically not lying because it wasn't a buzzer. I mean, and here's the thing. The the lawyers at Major League Baseball are a lot smarter than anyone on this phone call and probably smarter than they can do. And so the idea that they would ask a question as narrowly as that is probably not real. I think if you make it as wide as wearable technology, that would make a lot of sense. Now, they were given immunity, right? So even if they had answered... They were given immunity in exchange for truthful testimony. If they are found at any point to have lied to Major League investigators, I offer you the case of John Copauella. My, you know, the majority of people listening probably don't know who he is. He's the general manager of the Atlanta Braves. Back when he was GM, they ran a foul of international signing rules by packaging bonuses. Now, this is something that under normal circumstances probably would have led to a one-year suspension. But John Copauella lied to Major League Baseball about it. Now, he has joined too with Joe Jackson and Pete Rose on the ban list. He is gone from baseball. So the idea that the the Astros players, if they were lying about this, would not be suspended. They will get suspensions and they will get long suspensions if their testimony is proven to be out true. But there's also the conspiracy theorist in me that believes that the players could have been protected. Because how what percentages are we working with? Is it 50% immunity so we can get information or 50% I don't want to I don't want to bust the players because I can't I can't do anything with them anyway because the players association is going to appeal it and I can't suspend them anyway. So it's convenient to talk about immunity when you weren't going to be able to bang them anyway. So here's the thing down there. They were they were granted immunity because of the lack of notice. Now that is a legal tenant and labor law that says that if something changes in your disciplinary track, you must be informed of it in order to receive it. Players were never informed of that because neither Jeff Luna nor AJ Hinch, who were tasked with doing that, told that to players. On the other hand, in this case, let me just finish. In this case, what would happen is they would be disciplined for lying to the commissioner. That is something that is not covered by lack of notice. And thus, the major league baseball players associate would have an impossible time trying to get that suspension overturned. Now you mentioned the legality of having to protect any player in your players association if you're Tony Clark. Okay, they did have some sort of wavering of that during the PD scandal where you're now allowed to suspend somebody for full year ban them from baseball because the player's association understood. No, but that was that was a collectively bargained disciplinary track. That's something that the Players Association and Major League Baseball agreed on, which is also something that's coming up. My point is, is that Manfred could still go to Tony Clark. Something can still be worked out here where at least Tony Clark is protecting the many. I mean, he's got players going on record and also some players, Jeff, going on record assuming that they wore buzzers in 2019. That's already been talked about too. So it's all the court of public perception. So we don't live in the in the real world here. We're living in the baseball world where the court of public opinion still matters and you've got players just assuming on record that they wore buzzers in 2019. So I think Tony Clark can sue this by the Players Association and the Commissioner to get together to at least allow in the future disciplining players who cheat. I can tell you right now that is already happening. One final thing. I think Rob Manfred is very bright. Why would he make a comment? Piece of metal. How could he be that tone deaf? I think that this is an unsatisfactory answer, Michael. So so please like please understand that breakfast. He screwed up. Yeah. Because even extremely bright men, Rob Manfred is is five times smarter on his dumbest day than I am on my best. Even extremely bright people say stupid things sometimes and he just said a stupid thing. That's I mean, that's that's all. And I think I think he knows that and I think he admits that and I'm I'm sure that that he looks at that and says, God, did I make a mistake there? Because the last you know, the last thing that you want to do here is is be flip or be condescending and that that to players and the fans was just insulting and it was, you know, I it's unfortunate like it. But at the same time, the man is paid extremely well and it has a job to lead baseball in the right direction. So you have to be, you know, I was there that morning when I was talking with Carl Ravich talked to him for 45 minutes. I thought Ravi was incredible in that interview. There were no softballs there. He went right at him. And you know what? When you are getting grilled for 45 minutes to be on the entire time, I'm sure you guys go home every day and say, God, I wish I wouldn't have said that in the second hour. God, why did I do that? I screwed that opportunity up and we have a chance to make our mistakes better the next day. Rob Manfred at this point with as much scrutiny as on him has no chance to fix his mistakes and just has to wear them. In 10 seconds, you think that Manfred will reconsider and take away their championship? Will he reconsider it? Absolutely. I just don't know at this point if he's willing to go and take it away and I will try and be as quick here as possible. Here I think is the calculus. Will taking away the championship, Michael, be enough to satisfy the bloodlust of the public and further beyond that is satisfying the bloodlust of the public a proper reason to do something as big as taking away a chance. Not the public though, Jeff. The players. The players are upset that they're getting away scot free. Not the public. Forget about the public. The players are a judge. Cody Ballinger, Michael, you you you get you're right about the players, but you can't forget about the public because ultimately the public's judgment is what is going to shake the narrative. Okay, but I think that when star players do something they never do that that should be noted. Yeah, totally 100% correct. Good stuff, Jeff. Enjoy that sign again. Take it easy, boys. Alright, thanks a lot.