 Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to my conversation with Sadguru. He doesn't really need much of an introduction. This country and the international community know him well. He's a mystic, a visionary, humanitarian, a yogi. And he has a really fascinating outlook on how spirituality can help business, the economy. And we're really hoping to tap into that today. As a journalist, I travel to some of the world's hotspots and I continue to see death and destruction on a daily basis. And it's my job to bring that to your living rooms. But I also see the spirit of humanity. The human spirit is an incredible thing. And you can also see in these communities that one person can make a huge amount of change. So in my conversation with Sadguru, we're going to talk about these things. How you as individuals can make change and what our responsibility is individually, collectively and as a society. Really great to talk to you, Sadguru. Let's talk about firstly this concept of inclusive economies that you coined some 12 years ago. You took the idea to Davos. If you can briefly first tell me what you mean by it. Say Namaskaram to everyone. When you run a business, whether you make safety pins or computers or cars, somewhere the fundamental intention is you want to sell your safety pin to just all the 7.3 billion people. You're not thinking, I want two billion people to use my safety pin, others can use whatever they want. You want all the 7.3 billion people to use your safety pin. So this you can approach it either as a conquest or as an inclusion. If you approach it as a conquest, then the very process of what you're doing will be destructive in many ways, both for yourself and to the people and to the general ecology and the situation. But if we do it as an inclusive process, not just conceptually, but in activity, in actual work that we do. There are many ways you could include people in making those safety pins, where your production and your marketplace could be just about the same. If you do not include everybody, your business is not really matured in real sense. Whether you will get to sell it to all the 7.3 billion people or not is another matter. Somebody else may be also doing the same thing, but your intent is to include everybody into what you're doing. Now, if you want everybody to have it, not because you want to somehow sell something, because you want to contribute to their lives by giving the best that you can give, naturally businesses will grow. But the most important thing is people get included into the process. When this inclusiveness happens, you will see you sit on a very stable and safe platform for your business. Because these days businesses are growing larger than nations. In their budgets, many businesses have become larger than many other nations. When you have such a large investment and at stake, so many things, a nation has an army, a nation has various other instruments to protect itself. A business doesn't have these instruments. Its only safety is how much people want it. The safety of your business depends on how much people are loyal to what you're doing. If you build that loyalty and that inclusiveness from people around the world, then you are sitting on a safe platform. When you are sitting on a secure platform like that, you will have many opportunities to innovate, do many things because now creativity flows from variety of places. I'm just saying, suppose you're selling a safety pin, I'm sticking to the safety pin as the most basic product. If you just give out a call across the world to your customers, please design a new kind of safety pin if it's possible. For all you know, you may get thousand different designs free of cost. Like this, we can do many things. I don't want to go into the detail of how each business can be run, but businesses should start looking how to make it more inclusive. Rather than approaching, you know, when I was first at the Economic Forum, I tried to change this terminology. People were referring to India as an emerging market. I said, don't call us a marketplace, we're people. If you see a human being as a human being and you see how to contribute to that human being's life, that human being will become yours in many ways. I mean, you think this way and you have reached a mystical level where you can approach these things in a humane way. But the fact remains that the bulk of the global wealth is in the hands of a handful of people. I mean, just in a session previously to this one, they spoke about 70% of India's wealth is in the hands of 10% of the people here. 50% of the country's wealth is in the hands of 1%. So it's all good and well to ask a big business to be more inclusive and be more humane in their approach. But it's actually on the grassroots level, it's not necessarily happening. So when they say wealth, they are thinking in terms of stocks and shares and stuff. That's fine. You don't expect everybody in the country to own that, all right? The important thing is everybody in the country and in the world should be able to fulfill their fundamental needs and their well-being. If we see how to facilitate this, instead of seeing them as marketplace, if you see them as human beings and see how to facilitate this, instead of manufacturing what you want and try to sell it to them, if you manufacture what they want, what they need in their lives, it would become very inclusive. We prepared an elaborate system of how this could be done for a variety of industries. Has it become more inclusive than before in the last ten, twelve years? I would say yes to some extent, not to the extent that we would want, but definitely it's a little more inclusive. And you can see this just now, I've been on a 30-day ride across the country. I've been driving from Kanyakumari to the foothills of Himalayas. As I see India, I've done this many times earlier on a motorcycle, later on driving around. The last time I did was about nine years ago. Nine years ago, how India was. Nine years ago, what people's condition was. What it is today is phenomenally different. At least 80% of the roads that I drove on this time is as good as anywhere in the world, really. Only one thing is the road is good once in a way on odd guys coming on the wrong side. I think he's an American guy. I mean, you're right. And we often report internationally about India's growing middle class and that people are becoming more affluent. But equally, do you think in a technological age, it's also creating resentment in this country as well, where you can see that someone has the latest iPhone, for example, or they have the best job. They have more access to information now that perhaps it's creating more of a resentment, especially with this current generation. The resentment could be there in certain segments of society or in certain people, individual people will be resentful for so many things. Within a family of four or five, one person will be resentful about somebody else within the family. So unfortunately, human beings are still like that. But I don't believe your resentment is rising. Aspirations are rising. I don't think resentment is rising. It is just that, as we were talking, every small thing is reported. Every small thing comes into your sitting room. So it looks like everything is going up. But believe me, the world is more peaceful than it ever was in the history of humanity. And the number of people, the populations have multiplied, but still our violence is not multiplied. Still there are things which must end. That's a different matter. But today, if ten people die somewhere, it's just the blood pours into our sitting room because of you. We do. I mean, because people have access to so much information, death and destruction has always existed. In fact, less so now, I would say, but because we are able to instantaneously give people that information, they see it immediately. At the same time, there are so many tools or technologies to express your resentment. The moment you feel something, immediately you're on the Facebook. If it was 25 years ago, by the time you walked home, it would be gone. But before you go home, you already texted a thousand people and they said so many things and by the time you go home, this resentment has multiplied into ten thousand people. So which was not so earlier. You got upset about something you had physical activity to do. By the time you walked home or reached your workplace, normally it would be gone. But today you try to express it. But at the same time, what I see is, I'm seeing one thing among the kids, because they're so exposed to so many things, which we were not exposed to when we were children. There's a kind of a wisdom about them also. They're able to take these things with a certain kind of a dispassion about a lot of things. We grew up at a time where always people around me and myself, we were always talking about a revolution, the times of, say, you know. But not today. Today people are talking about their aspirations. They're not thinking of large scale disruption of present situations to achieve something. They're seeing how to exploit the present situation to fulfill their aspirations. In our time, we did not think of our own self-aspirations. We thought everything, the whole system has to change. This has to happen. That has to happen. I see from that hotheadedness that we were as youth, today I think they're a little cool and I think the terminology has changed. See when we were young, if something was really good, we said, oh, it's hot. Now they're saying it's cool. But I mean, we are seeing fractures globally in the international community. I mean, there's been so much discussion around the election of Donald Trump, you know, why that happened. With Brexit in the UK, why that's happening. With the migrant crisis, with people being pushed out of their homes in communities and conversations about far right movements in Europe. Do you think attitudes globally are hardening? You talk about the revolution of your time and people are more cool now. But from the experiences that I have reporting in these places, that I sense that attitudes are hardening and people are identifying more now. There's more sense of identity politics. I think we have, in the last couple of decades, we have overdone this political correctness too much. People are sick of it. Trying to be right about everything. Not looking at what people's needs are, but too much political correctness, every word that you say, you have to say it in a certain way. This has led to a certain level of frustration, particularly in the United States. Now they're trying to protect their rights because they feel threatened. The majorities, the majority communities in various nations are feeling little uncomfortable because they feel slowly it is being taken over. Whether it's real or it's just perceptionally, it doesn't matter. But this feeling is strong. It is strong in India also. Because constantly talking, minoritism, people feel uncomfortable. What is going to happen to us? So we must understand this. Minorities have always stuck together. And because of this, politicians have played these games because minority votes are the only things which come en masse. Majority votes will never come en masse. So they always focused on them, gave them better things to such a point. I must tell you this, this is shocking, but it happened in this country. One of our former prime minister said, the first access to all resource must be to the minorities, particularly to the Muslim minorities. You should not say such things. Even if you intend, you should not say such things. Why did you find that shocking? How can the nation's resource belong to anybody? Even if you say it must belong to majority, it will be shocking for me. I'm not saying it is shocking because it… he pointed at a particular community. I'm saying it's shocking in a democratic country, which is a secular nation, that you think it should belong to one particular segment of people is wrong whether it's majority or minority. So when you make these kind of statements, postures and positions get hardened by other people to protect their own interests. What is economic will take on a religious hell, you know, hue altogether. It's essentially an economic issue, but it will take on a religious tinge. Once it takes on a religious tinge, everything becomes uncontrollable. Do you think that's a result of a lack of leadership? Do we have a global lack of leadership at the moment? There is lack of leadership in a certain way, but at the same time we need those kind of leaders only when we are in crisis. Rest of the need time, we just need a CEO to manage the nation. Only when you have to lift a nation out of some pit, then you need that kind of an inspiring leader. Rest of the time you don't really need that kind of leader. More a manager is good enough. Actually there is a survey in India which shows that in many of the states, when they had the weakest chief minister, that state does very well in economically. Why is that? Because he doesn't know how to meddle with everything. So do you find, I mean, you've raised the kind of the previous prime minister, did you say the previous prime minister said one of, a former leader talking about incentives going to certain communities. Is that an issue that India continues to face in its attempt to be politically correct? See, somewhere we have to come to this. In a democratic country, numbers are important because elections are just a number game. Because numbers are important, people are trying to get those numbers whichever way possible. So our election commission has put so many restrictions. If you say one religious word, immediately there is a censure. There is, you can even go to prison by inciting something. So they don't do it in public meetings, they do it in those closed meetings, whatever. So one important thing is if a democracy has to succeed, individuals should vote as individuals, not as family, not as community, not as caste, creed or religion. Only when you and me vote individually what we want to do, whether we are right or wrong, it doesn't matter. We vote individually, only then democracy will succeed. Otherwise you're practicing feudalism with a democratic gob. So once it becomes feudalistic, naturally everybody's position hardens. What is the role of spirituality when it comes to business? It's very important in the sense, first of all let's understand what is spiritual process. Spiritual process does not mean looking up or looking down. It is not about believing something. It is not about going to a temple, church or mosque or whatever. Spirituality means this. When your experience of life transcends the limitations of your physical nature, then we say you're spiritual. When we say physical nature, what is physical about you was all gathered from outside, isn't it? The food that we've eaten, which is sitting here as a body, either we get it now or when we're buried one day, we get it that we are actually part of the soil. So what is soil is now sitting here and acting up like this just because it can prance around, it starts believing things. But beyond what we have gathered, there is something else, which you can call as life, you can call it whatever you want. But you exist beyond your body parts. So what body parts we gathered is just earth, which we have to put back one day. Something beyond that is within us. If we come to experience that dimension, then we say you're spiritual. Or if you're seeking to experience that dimension, then we say you're on a spiritual path. Now if you touch that dimension, naturally the sense of boundary will go away within you because boundaries are of the physical nature. Boundaries is a must for physical nature. This is me, that is you physically. These boundaries are very essential and this is needed. That goes for individuals, that goes for communities, that goes for nations. We call this a nation because it is a border, isn't it? So physical spaces are always defined by boundaries. A dimension beyond physical if you touch, there is no sense of boundary within you. It is naturally inclusive. If you bring people, actually when I was at… I was asked, Sadhguru, if there's one thing we can do for you that will change this world, what is it? I said, I will name twenty-five people, give them to me for five days. I will change the world. In two to three years' time, there will be a huge change in the world. Who are these twenty-five people? I named twenty-five heads of the major nations on the planet. Normally I need two and a half days to do this to people. But because they are politicians, I said five days. You doubled the time. Doubled the time just to ensure. If… I want you to understand this, whether it's yourself or anybody who's leading a business or a nation, if you sit here and if you can experience all these people, as you're experiencing the five fingers of your hand, after that I don't have to tell you what you should do with them. Once you have experienced something as a part of yourself, then everything that you do will be an expression of that. So if you run businesses like this, if you run nations like this, it'll work. How is this possible? Very simple. We could do an experiment. If you do like this and hold it, you will see something starts happening between your two hands, you know? I'm sorry. So what do you think ultimately then is missing from these twenty-five people who run the world? Why did you choose them? Limited identification. It's the only problem. The… I'm sorry. No, no, that's right. Sadguru has a slight cough and cold so he's asked me to bear with him. See, these people could have experienced when they're very joyful or loving. If you felt very, very exuberant within yourself, if you just take your hands and place it here, six to eight inches away from you, right here you will feel sensations. If nothing like that happened, then we have to do something horrible. If we… you have heard this, somebody lost their leg or hand. Though the physical leg was lost, the sensory leg was still there. They could still feel the sensations. It's called a phantom leg or a phantom hand. This is because sensory body has a presence of its own. Right now this water is here. This is definitely not you. But if you drink it, it becomes you, isn't it? What is it that you did? All you did was include this water into the boundaries of your sensation. I'm sorry. I'm not… Do you want… do you want… Nobody ever sees me unwell. Down of… Hmm? Oh, that would be great. Yeah. See, now this water is not you, but if you drink it, it becomes you. What you have done is, what was outside the boundaries of your sensation, you included it into the boundaries of your sensation. What you call as my body was all over the place. Today, because it's within the boundaries of your sensation, you experience it as myself, isn't it? Now I can teach you a method with which your sensory body can expand. Let's say your sensory body became as large as this hall. If you sit here, you will experience everything here as a part of yourself, because everything is within the boundaries of your sensation. This is what yoga means. Yoga means union. Yoga does not mean twisting and turning your body or standing on your head. Yoga means union. In your experience, everything became one, simply because your sensory body has been expanded. If your sensory body became as large as this world, you would experience everything as yourself. Sitting here for one moment, if you experience me as yourself, after that, do I have to teach you morality, thou shall not do this, thou shall not do that? Would it be necessary for you? So you're saying the problem is religion then? No, no, no. The problem is limited identification. You are identified only with this. So this is naturally either an enemy or something to get something out of. It is a marketplace. Other people have become our marketplace. If we saw them as human beings, if you experienced them as human beings, we would see how to contribute to their lives. If you see them as marketplace, you will see how to exploit them. So if you exploit them, there will be resentment. There will be... We can't live without you. But if we get a chance, we would like to do something to you. This is how the world is going on. So if the top leadership in the world within themselves is they experience a certain sense of union with everything around them, the very way the function will change. Why I'm saying this is, see, this is for the first time. This is for the very first time in the history of humanity. Today we have the necessary resource, capability, technology to address every human problem on the planet. You take what you want, nourishment, health, education, everything we can address. The only thing that's missing is there is no inclusive consciousness. Even 50 years ago, we wouldn't be capable of... Even if we intended, we could not do it. Thank you. 50 years ago, even if we wanted to do it, we did not have the capacity. Today we have the capacity and we are not... If we don't do it, that I call it as a crime against humanity. If we are not capable of it, that's different. But we are capable of it and we did not do it. That's a crime, isn't it? Do you think, though, that religion divides? You want me to get killed. See, the moment you believe one thing, you must understand this, why do you believe something? Do you believe you have two... Do you believe you have two hands? Or do you know you have two hands? I know. You know you have two hands. What would you believe? Something that you do not know, you believe. To pretend that you know. If human beings understand the immensity of not knowing, immensity of seeing, I do not know. If you see, I do not know. Only then the possibility of knowing opens up in your life. But now what we have done to humanity is, whatever you do not know, you just believe it. So you believe one thing. I believe something else. Today we are nice to each other. But when my belief and your belief comes to a competition, then we will kill each other. Do you think religious men, you know, people in positions of power that others follow exploit that? I wouldn't say they exploit that. They are also victims because they also believe. First of all, belief means this. You don't have the courage to admit something that you do not know as I do not know. What is your problem? What I know, I know. What I do not know, I do not know. What is the big deal about it? But that one thing humanity is not able to come to terms with is, they are not able to live with I do not know. But I do not know is a tremendous possibility. If you are in a state of I do not know, your intelligence is at its peak. The moment you think I know, then stupid things start happening out of you. So we have gotten human societies into this that everybody has to believe something. It's very important we bring up our children in such a way that they become sincere enough. What I know, I know. What I do not know, I do not know. What's the problem with this? But then there will be no religion. How would you feel about that? How would you feel about that? People think if there is no organized religion, everybody will go haywire. I don't think so. I have deep and profound trust in humanity. If you stir up humanity in the world, you will see it will go fine. It is not necessary because of fear of God you are doing the right things. You should do the right things because you experience life as a certain kind of unity. If you pay enough attention around you, you can understand very clearly you could not even exist here without the worms and the insects and the birds and the trees. You cannot exist here. This is how I launched this movement called Project Green Hands, now which translated itself into Rally for Rivers. I made people sit under trees and made them breathe in a certain way, set up a certain spiritual process. I said, see, what you exhale, the tree is inhaling. What the tree exhales, you are inhaling. One half of your breathing apparatus actually hanging out there. People sat like this and now they got into a tree planting frenzy, you can't stop them. Thirty-two million trees, they have planted living trees in Tamil Nadu where it's changed the landscape. You can't stop them anymore because when they see tree, tears come to them because there is a sense of unity. So our best insurance is our humanity. Not some from somewhere else and imposed law upon ourselves. Instead of stirring up humanity we are trying to make people believe all kinds of things. The moment you believe one thing and I believe another thing conflict is just a question of time. I mean, you spoke about the trees and people now planting all these trees. You've used the connection that you have with people and the fact that they follow you in a positive way but we've also seen men of God, God men, gurus, religious men use it to exploit people. Just recently we had a case here in India. See, unfortunately, corruption has seeped into every sphere of life. There are corrupt politicians, there are corrupt policemen, there are corrupt journalists. I wouldn't take a person. There are. Many of them have been caught on something or the other and unfortunately there are corruption, there is corruption in the so-called spiritual space also. So this is a more fundamental problem than being associated with one particular type of activity. It is there everywhere. But in this sphere of life, maybe it's more stark and more painful because this is a sphere of life which runs on trust. So this is why in many ways, in the last thirty-five years I have transformed the spiritual space. You don't have to, you don't have to trust me, you don't have to like me, you don't have to love me. Just a simple procedure, like a science. So we call this inner engineering. It's a technology for well-being. You learn to use it, that's all. See, you're using a phone. You're using a Samsung, so you don't have to love the Koreans, you just learn to use the phone. So similarly, you don't have to love me, you just learn to use the method and it will work for you. So this has been my fundamental work. That spiritual process has to be dealing with it from faith as such because this is the technology and science and technology for inner well-being as there is a science and technology for external well-being. There is a whole science and technology for inner well-being. If you transmit it without frills, it will remain clean and good. So that's how it's working across the world right now. But somebody may misuse it always, but that misuse is there in every sphere of life, isn't it, unfortunately? It's true. On that note, I'll open it up to the floor and give you a chance to ask Sadguru your questions. I'm sure you have lots of things in your mind and thoughts, but two people there, if I can just get the microphone to them. Thank you so much. If you could introduce yourself. Sure. I'm Anjali Gopalan with the NAS Foundation, which is an HIV AIDS service organization. Sadguru, recently I have read about Mutammah, this really poor tribal woman who's taken on the Isha Foundation to get back her land, which she claims Isha Foundation has usurped and the land for over 400 other tribal families. Is there any chance that the Isha Foundation would return that land to the tribal people? If I had it, I would have. But the Isha Foundation has, and there's documented evidence. Please, there's no documented evidence or any kind of evidence. There are some people who should be pulp fiction writers who claim to be journalists right now, unfortunately. Okay? You are most welcome to come and examine everything that you want to. These people should be writing pulp fiction, but they claim to be journalists. Unfortunately, as she was talking about some spiritual leaders being corrupt, certain journalists have taken to blackmail. Okay? Right now, any journalist or anybody is free to come and investigate the entire process. If there is an inch of land, just an inch of land taken from anybody, I will leave the country. Is that good enough? Inch. Okay. Thank you very much. My name is Biraj Patnaik. And thank you for talking about the environment and inspiring young people. I think that's very, very important today. And that's a role we wish more people did. You just spoke about pulp fiction and journalists, but what about the Tamil Nadu government, which is filed in affidavit in the High Court, clearly stating and showing the violations, environmental violations, and construction violations of your foundation on the land, the blocking of the Elephant Corridor? I mean, leading to the situation where Justice Saripatnam, as you know, appealed to the prime minister not to go to the foundation for these legal activities, surely the Tamil Nadu government filing an affidavit in the High Court is not a work of fiction, Sadhguru. All right. Now, if there was substance to that, you think the prime minister would make the trip? Have some sense about what we are talking about, okay? If you have invested yourself in something already, and you have to say these things, but a thousand times, the World Wildlife Fund, Tamil Nadu Forest Departments and the environmental ministry, everybody has said there is no elephant corridor in the region, anywhere within 100 miles. And you go on inventing an elephant corridor which doesn't exist, what can I do? About the Tamil Nadu governments affidavit, Tamil Nadu government's forest department is clearly stated in the High Court that this is not an elephant corridor and not an inch of land has been taken by the foundation. If this is not good enough, somebody goes on filing an affidavit. I will tell you, they said we have chopped off an entire rainforest. So we produced the Google Maps of 2002, 2008, 2010, 2016 and 2017. Not a single tree has been taken out. Now you don't open your mouth on that. Why? You said entire forest has been taken out. Look at the Google Maps. Today there is technology, you can't sell your lies forever. Some of you believe if you utter a lie 100 times, it will become a truth, it will not. Okay, we've got a question at the front here. So I think the work we do with our firm is kind of infringing with your inner engineering because we are trying to potentially put 3D printed organs into people. So that's, again, inner engineering, giving someone a new life. To keep it serious, sir, my question is on the lines of the work you're doing with Rally for Rivers and, again, steering up the Indian youth's enthusiasm to kind of go out there and create positive change. Where do you see this going forward? Now it's Rally for Rivers. Do you see yourself being an advocate for much bigger changes and do you see yourself as being someone as a change maker who can drive the Indian youth towards creating positive change in this country? I'm interested in you, whether you're young or old. Okay, not just for the youth. About Rally for Rivers, we have presented a draft policy recommendation to the government. Now it is going to the state governments. We are also, we have put it online for the media and others and we are also sending it to all the top environmentalists in the world in case they can contribute something. But the important part is, largely all the states have agreed upon the policy. This was the biggest hurdle because it's a concurrent subject between the center and the state and they could never get the states to agree because they are various political parties. Now all the political parties, we brought them to concurrence that they have agreed to the how the river should be treated as such, which is a major step because concurrence has come, this makes it easy for the central government to go about the policy. It will definitely become a policy in a short while. When it will become a law, it may take some time because there are many social and other kinds of complexities in implementing this, but we want to set up large-scale modules which are economically successful to prove to the farmers this new way that we're talking about will work out to their advantage. Without setting up an economic success, we don't want to push it. Once it's an economic success, I think it will go like a revolution by itself. Yeah, true. Thank you for sharing with us all your thoughts. I just want to ask you a very fundamental question. You know some of us, and I'm from the global shapers community with the World Economic Forum, so we've been selected because we are interested in making an impact in the world and in the communities. So why is it that some people feel this way and other people don't feel this way? I've always struggled with trying to identify why is it that I have this kind of responsibility towards my country and my community, and some people just do not seem to have it. So does the upbringing, the schooling, have something to do with it and how can we inculcate this feeling in everybody? Definitely there are many influences, but the most fundamental thing that we need to understand is, as I was telling... Yelda. Yelda is... it's a question of identity. What are you identified with? If you're identified just with yourself, then naturally your intelligence will function only to for the well-being of this one. If you're identified with your family, your intelligence will function for the well-being of your family. If you're identified with the community, it works for that. If you're identified with the nation, it works for that. If you're identified with the entire life on this planet, it works for that. So this is the nature of human intellect. Whatever you're identified with, that's what it works for. One thing that's happened with modern education is we are only focusing on the development of the intellect. The other dimensions of intelligence are completely neglected. When I say other dimensions, in the yogic way of looking at things, we look at human mind as sixteen parts. They can be seen as four segments. This is called Buddha, Ahankara, Manas and Chitta. Buddha means the intellect. Right now, the entire modern education is totally intellect-oriented. Would you like your intellect to be sharp or dull? Sharp. So essentially, intellect is a cutting instrument. It's like a knife. It's alright to use a knife to cut something. So right now, you want to stitch something. If you use a knife, you leave it in tattoos. This is what is happening to modern human being because the only part of intelligence that they're employing is their intellect. They're trying to do everything with their knife. If you try to do everything with your knife, obviously you're going to cut yourself into pieces. As you get hurt, you will fix smaller and smaller boundaries for yourself. You step out into the world. If something hurts you, you put one boundary. If something else hurts you, you put one more boundary. If you get hurt within the family, you will make a much smaller boundary. Because you're employing only the intellect part of the intelligence, it's very important the future generations at least. Human intelligence has to be brought up in an equitable way so that the other dimensions of intelligence function. Only when they function will they be able to think of a larger identity. Otherwise, naturally, it's about me, me and me alone. So in this, you do very small things. You do very small things to yourself and ugly things to yourself because one thing that a human being suffers most is being trapped. The trapped need not necessarily be because somebody locked you up. The trapped can be just in your own mind. And people immensely suffer that. This is the transition you're seeing. When you are five years of age, your face was like this, slowly it becomes like this. You think you have grown up. At five, if you were so joyful, at thirty you should have become ecstatic, isn't it? But just the reverse is happening simply because intellect is the only dimension of intelligence you're using. You're trying to understand everything by cutting it open. If I want to know you, should I dissect you? But that's what you're doing in your mind, isn't it? Whatever you want to know, you dissect it with your intellect. You can know some aspects. I can know your liver, kidney spleen by dissecting you. But I will not know you as a human being. So this is something we have to focus on in our education systems. Hello. So Guru, I've always wanted to ask this question. And today I've got this opportunity. It's a very basic question. But yeah, we've always been told that, you know, everything is pre-decided in our fate and then it's all about luck. So I always keep arguing with my mom that, you know, I have to take risks, I have to become a big entrepreneur. She says, no, everything is pre-written. So what is in our control and what is not in our control? It is always confusing. So do we just let things go to happen or keep struggling and then make things happen? It's very confusing, Sadhguru. Please guide us. If you're making something happen, why should you struggle? But some things that really do not work in our favor, we keep, if I have to give, by taking a risk, I would like to give an example. Like for example, if we see Mark Zuckerberg's live story or Bill Gates' live story, it all began with so much of, you know, controversy and all that. But at the end they have really landed successful and now they're doing well. Can we really see stories like this? It confuses us, what part do we follow and then do we be honest or just keep doing or following things the way things come? There are many complexities in the question. Please sit down. I don't know where the honesty came into this and why it came to question. Anyway, see if you take charge of your physical body, if you have some mastery over your physical body, about 15 to 20% of your life and destiny will be in your hands. If you take charge of your intelligence, 50 to 60% of your life and destiny will be in your hands. If you take charge of your very life energy within you, 100% of your life and destiny will be in your hands. The question is only, have you taken charge of this? The problem is you're trying to take charge of the world. No, you have to enhance this. If this is enhanced, the activity you perform is naturally enhanced. This is like, you know there's a buddh circuit here, the F1 circuit is here in Delhi. You are on the Formula One track with your old Maruti 800. If you hit 300 kilometers per hour, all four wheels will fly in four different directions. If you want to be on a F1 track, you must have a reasonably good machine which can take it. So the important thing is you must enhance this one. But you're trying to enhance activity. If you enhance activity without enhancing this one, this will break up. This is what a lot of people are doing to themselves. But if you focus on enhancing this, you will take activity in your stride effortlessly. Then you will see creating something is not a struggle. I interviewed Satya Nadella, the Microsoft CEO. He was born in India last week. And I said to him, the top nine CEOs in the world are all Indian. Why are they all leaving the country? Why aren't we seeing a Microsoft or a Google being created here in this environment? Because in this country, we still have a socialist backlog. There are some people like this who raised their hands in the beginning who doesn't like anything to succeed. If anything succeeds, they will go against it. Anything doing well, they don't like it. People are happy, they don't like it. So people go out and thrive. So should there be a Google or Microsoft here in India? I'm sure it's bound to happen because the time for Google and Microsoft is past. Something new has to come up. I'm sure it will come up. I'll take some more questions if there are. Yeah, just the lady in the back. Namaste, Satguru. My name is Ninna Clay and I'm in the business world. And I was just wondering that this inner engineering program that you're talking about, can it help people with psychological problems as well? Or remanifested problems? See, it depends. Psychological problems are not as simple as, you know, it's not black and white. There are too many shades in between. So all psychological problems cannot go under one banner. It is... every individual psychological problem is very unique. If there is no one solution for all of them, some of them are pathologically embedded in their system, which is not easy to handle. Many are induced because of the situations and the challenges that they face in their life. Those can be easily turned around. People who have become psychologically imbalanced because of situational pressures upon them, we can definitely turn them around. But those who have pathologically so, it's not easy. We can give them some relief, but will it be all fixed? That would be an empty promise. Thank you. We spoke about ambition earlier and you're talking now about anxieties and disorders and psychological issues. Do you think with the drive of ambition, more people are developing depression, anxiety, mental health issues? I personally don't like the word ambition because in a certain way, you're trying to impose your will upon the world. You want to be something and you want the world to cooperate to make you that something. If we transform ourselves from ambition to a larger vision, we can do the same thing very joyfully. Still, we will become who we become depending upon our capabilities, but we can do it joyfully with a great sense of fulfillment, rather than being crushing ourselves to become something. I keep telling people, most people are trying, you know, they're killing themselves to live. To live, you don't have to kill yourself. If you have to do this life joyfully, it's very important that you have invested yourself in a vision to create something, rather than ambition to become something. This is just a question right there. Hi, Sadhguru. Namaste. I'm Simarpreet Singh, global shaper from Chandigarh. I was reading Isha Foundation's blog and there is this one article. The heading is Sadhguru's Enlightenment in his own words. So, I want to know according to you what is enlightenment and how can other people be enlightened beings as you have mentioned your experience of getting enlightened. Can you tell us about that? Thank you. The blog didn't tell you. He couldn't figure it out on the blog. Let me put it technically because there are so many glorious explanations about what it is. As I was speaking earlier, see when you sit here, your experience of yourself is largely physical, isn't it? If somebody next to you pokes you, will you say, don't poke my body or will you say, don't poke me? Don't poke me, isn't it? Because your experience of the body is myself. But is it true this body is something that you accumulated over a period of time? Yes? What you accumulate can be yours. Can never ever be you, isn't it? Whatever you accumulate, it can be yours. It can never ever be you. Right now, as I'm speaking, I say this is my cup. You will think, oh, Sadhguru has some problems. But let's listen some more because everybody says he's wise. After some time, I say this is me. Then you'll say, let's go. Because this is your madness, isn't it? Something that you acquired, you think is you. Isn't that madness? So right now, that is the madness. What you accumulated, you think it's me. The day you are free of this madness, we will say you are enlightened. Experientially, not intellectually. It's quite difficult to get to that stage, you would know. It is not difficult. It is just that it's in a different direction than the way you're looking right now. When I say the way you're looking right now, can you see me? Yes. Use one hand and point out where I am. Ah, you got it wrong, Gelder. Are you everywhere? Is that what you're trying to say? This light is falling upon me, reflecting, going through your lenses, inverted image in the retina, you know the whole story. So where do you see me now? Within yourself. Where do you hear me right now? Within myself. Where did you see the whole world? Within yourself. Have you ever experienced anything outside of yourself? Your pains and pleasures happen within you. Your joy and misery happen within you. Your agony and ecstasy happen within you. Even light and darkness is only happening within you, isn't it? But what about the pain that others inflict on one another and the suffering? When was the last time somebody poked you with a dagger? I was actually in Mosul three weeks ago and I saw a lot of people poking each other with all sorts of things. See, when you say the pain that other people inflict, if it's physical, this is what the issue that he's raised now. If your experience is such, if you sit here, that you clearly, experientially know, you clearly know this cup is not me. Similarly, if you know, not because you're thinking about it, simply you know this body is just one more acquisition of mine. You will keep it well, you will use it well, but just because this is not me, I'm not going to break this. I'm going to keep this well because it's useful to me. If this is so, you will see you will be completely free from various things that normally people suffer. Just now, I've been on a 30-day ride across the country. All the other drivers who are driving with me, they have spare drivers. I have no spare driver because I am supposed to drive every kilometer. Daily I'm driving 12 to 16 hours a day and in these 30 days I did 142 events, events like this. And some of them are very large events with 20-25,000 people and 186 one-on-one interviews. That means when I'm driving, most of the time arrangements were made in the car for microphone, camera, everything. Continuously I was talking through the day and night and driving. Driving on Indian roads like that is not easy to do, okay? What is it that keeps you going? It's just that if you have a little space between yourself and your body, suddenly you will see the limitations of the physical does not rule you anymore. So is it easy or difficult to get there? It is not difficult, it's in a different direction. See right now when you say where am I, you say you point the finger here, but actually in your experience it's happening within you. If you were conscious of that, you would clearly understand all experiences within you are created by you. Maybe unconsciously, but it is created by you. Everything that happens within you happens because that's the way you're doing it. So this is why in this culture we said the way you're experiencing your life is your karma. The word karma means it's your doing. Today it's been misinterpreted, they think it's a faith. It is not a faith, it's the most dynamic way to live. When we say your life is your karma, it means your life is your making, 100%. Why is it then that the majority of the eight billion people on our planet follow the other path and not this path, if it's not difficult? You're counting me out unfortunately, as if I don't exist. See, because people have begun to live in such a way that their involvement with life is very superficial. They're busy making arrangements on the outside. They have not paid enough attention to the life that they are. But if you want to really live well, you must understand the mechanism of what this is, isn't it? Suppose you buy a phone. If you don't read the user's manual, will you be able to use it well? I'm asking, this is the most sophisticated gadget on the planet, isn't it so? Human mechanism, is there a better technology? This is the technology. Have you read the user's manual? So if you understood the user's manual fully and learned to use it that way, then that's enlightenment in a certain way. We've got time for one more question if anyone has something brief that they'd like, the opportunity to ask. Sadguru, anything yes? I think she's referring to the 188 interviews he did on the 144 events. See, in this 35 years, my average sleep has been anywhere between two-and-a-half to three hours per day. Because right now you check my pulse and see, because I have a cold and things, it's a little up, it's around fifty-two, fifty-four in that region. But if I'm well and if I sit in one place, it'll settle down to thirty-six, thirty-four in this range. It's going at ease. If everything is going at ease, then there is no stress of doing something. It's very important that human beings first learn to work upon themselves before they meddle with the world. If this one thing is done, then you will do the right things with the world around you. Because if you do not even know how to treat yourself well, how will you treat other people well? If you don't know how to bring well-being to yourself, how will you bring well-being to other people? It's not going to happen, it's just talk, empty talk. I was in a peace conference, international peace conference. Forty-two Nobel laureates were there. One after another, one after another, belting out long speeches, mostly read from paper, they don't even look up, they're just reading, reading pages and pages. Then when my turn came, I asked it so much talk about world peace. How many of you can genuinely put your hand on your heart and say that you have a peaceful mind? Your mind is peaceful. They were very honest, they said, no, we are not peaceful. But we want the world to be peaceful. See, the world is very peaceful minus the human beings. World is fantastic minus the human beings. It's only what is happening in the human mind, a larger manifestation is happening on the street, which is looking ugly. Otherwise, tell me what's wrong with the world. If you and me are not here, the world is just fine, isn't it? So we do not know how to bring balance to our own self, but we want to do that in the larger world, it'll never happen. We have to understand this. What you see as a world is just a larger version of who we are. If you don't fix this, we can't fix that. Do you predict that will ever happen? Because we're seeing a more divided, as we realized how small the world is, we're also creating more barriers and divisions. I'm not somebody who thrives on predictions of any kind. I don't like predictions because predictions go, are made from the cold facts of today. Predictions don't take into consideration what's beating in the human heart. Human beings are aspiring to do something about themselves like never before. And today, you know, I keep joking with people. I say, see, I'm the greatest guru ever in the history of humanity. They look at what happened to Sadhguru is becoming Mike Tyson or something. This is because when our Krishna came, when a Buddha came, when so many other great beings came, if they spoke, hardly fifty people could hear them. Today I can sit here and speak to the entire world. This was never before possible thanks to the technologies. So today this is possible. This is also possible that we could make the world meditative very much possible. And for the first time we are touching that many number of people as we would have never done before. So is it a possibility? Definitely. Will it happen right now? Not necessarily. But in our lives if we do not do what we cannot do, it's not a problem. In our lives if we do not do what we can do, we are a disaster. So it's my wish and my blessing that none of us should become a disaster like that. What we can do must happen. What we cannot do. On that note, I'd really like to thank you, Sadguru, for taking the time to speak to us and despite your cold as well. Thank you so much. I'm better now. You're better now. Thanks for coming.