 We will begin again this 21st of September 2020 trust, you have been well, time for a discussion now we look at the state of the nation and most importantly the role of the church in the national discourse, a brief round of the things you talk about will be looking into the COVID-19 response, how things have been and you remember the church was the first response to the COVID-19 protocols, all the guidelines that are given by the minister of health and the government at large, we will be also looking at the political drum beats that have begun with talking about the campaigns of the 2022 general elections. We have been seeing what has been going on and of course we will be looking into corruption. There's a case going on on the COVID-19. You could say billionaires that like it has been put in the public domain, money has been eaten and so KEMSA is one of the agencies or the departments that is being looked into. We have had the corruption cases going on with our governors the latest being the Migori governor Bardo and of course we've also had others who have been charged with corruption. And lastly we'll be looking into the leadership and the kind of dignity and respect our leaders have. Are they sending a good message to us here when they speak the kind of words they speak to the audience or to the public, is it a good message? I'm speaking to political analyst Socrates Private and Rev. Michael Kurya. We'll be looking so much into this. Keep it Y254. Send us your comments on all our social media platforms Y254 channel on Facebook and Twitter. My name is Dereva Hilayi. Welcome to the program. Gentlemen, good morning and welcome. Now Rev, I want to begin with you regarding COVID-19. When COVID-19 landed in Kenya and it was first reported in March, the first protocols or the guidelines that were given by the government was the social distancing effect. And they looked into the social places and one of them was the church and the church was told Hakuna church, Zikafungwa. Other places remained like the bars and what have you but later they were closed. But looking into the church it was affected. This is a place where people go for spiritual nourishment, having the strength and we were in a pandemic. Someone would have hoped church would have been the best place like it happens when other calamities come, the church comes to be a safe haven for us but now we are not going to church. Now, how the church responded to the government's directive? Do you think in other areas or in other forms of the government's directive this is what should be done? Well Hilary, I must confess that as a church we were one of the institutions that was heavily hit because in the history of the church of Kenya, nothing like that has ever happened. Where one day you just received the directive from the government that due to COVID-19 you are hereby directed to close shop and that means there is nothing that should be happening in church. The Sunday worship was suspended and that came as a surprise and it also brought a lot of trauma and especially to those people who have been accustomed to attend church every Sunday and especially the elderly. That was the lifestyle that on Sunday I just wake up, I shower, I take my breakfast and then I go to church because there is something that church does to people. It's an opportunity for you to bond with God, it's an opportunity for you to pray, it's an opportunity for you to hear the word of God. It's also an opportunity for you to interact with other Christians. And so you can imagine the absence of that and that is why a majority of initially a majority of the people did not take that kindly. And if you can remember immediately after the directive, even after a month, some people were still especially the diehards, they still continued attending church until the government put down its feelings. And say hi guys, this thing is really, really serious. But from where I sit and I think the government would have done a little bit more consultation with the leaders of the church because the church has its own systems and structures on how to do things. Disregarding all that and then bombarding us with directives which we eventually obeyed as faithful, godly citizens. But I think a little bit consultation would have been done because there are some churches which are big and they can be able to comfortably have a service and observe the 1.5 or 2.5 or whatever distance it is. Just before I let you go, the message that the church send, think the members of the public or the public in general, do you think they took it kindly in regards to being disciplined as a people? Okay, well, they did not take it kindly. And this is the reason as to why they did not take it kindly. Because the details that were given were being given out, they were still scanty. I think the government had not done proper civic education in informing people this is where COVID-19 started, this is what COVID-19 is, these are the effects and this is actually what you will do. See, there is a sense in which people felt betrayed. It's like if I have some information, I need to relay it to you in a very clear manner. I paint a picture so that at least even by the time we are making a collective decision, I don't feel kind of betrayed. I don't feel like you've ignored me and that is what the church felt. By the way, a lot of people at that particular point, and there was this debate, that there is probably something that the government is hiding. Not that the government was hiding something, although it is not for me to be the advocate for the government, but you see when you do not release full information, when you do not shed light on certain things. I think many people in all Kenyans have never been in a pandemic. I think the last pandemic to be experienced in the world was it in 1918, maybe some people can tell me. The Spanish flu. So now you can imagine you're telling people a pandemic. Number one, somebody does not understand what a pandemic is. Or an epidemic. And then all of a sudden there is an atmosphere of fear that has been created. And then all of a sudden there is a cessation of movement. And then there is lockdown. Now you can imagine all this confusion. Now, since time immemorial, people have always found refuge in church. And if you look at the history of Israel, even when the temple was being constructed, when Solomon dedicated the temple to God, this is the prayer he made. In times of pandemic, in times of war, in times of epidemic, even when we have seen the genistu and there is disaster in the land, when we come and call on your name in this temple, here our prayer. Now, in the midst of a pandemic, now people are being told do not even there go to church. I believe God is omnipresent and God is everywhere. But now people are wondering now if you're not being allowed to go to church, now where will we go? And so all of a sudden there was an atmosphere of fear, hopelessness, anxiety and nervousness. And you can remember it is during that season that actually a lot of depression and stress started taking place. It is during that season again that gender-based violence actually started increasing. And it was very fast. It started rising and they are saying 42%. Yes. And the antinist pregnancies which would later be backtracked to be forced information. Now socrates, just like Reverend has mentioned, when COVID-19 came there were restrictions, especially the cessation of movement in and out of several counties in the country. And then there was kafi which is still in force even today. We are hoping the head of state will be collapsing. It may be sometimes this week if it does, I know it will benefit the majority of us. Now how we responded to COVID-19 as compared to other nations and what we have had in terms of the fatalities from other foreign nations and even our neighbors. Here we are, our numbers are going down but the minister of health is insisting we should not lower our guards. To this end, do you think Kenya has handled COVID-19 in a right way? Observing the human rights and of course caring for the public? Well, thank you so much Hilary. It's always a pleasure to be here. Now moving fast, I think it's been a lukom approach from either the divides, the government and of course the larger cities in Rik. In terms of policy they did what they had to do. The clarion role of any government in the world is to take care of the lives of its citizens and their properties. That's where most policies are drawn from. So it's only natural that they had to regroup, reanalyze policies especially in public health, bring new things, a session of movement, things like masks and whatnot. That was a spirit attempt by government to make sure guys are safe, to make sure lives are not lost because that is their clarion role as a governing institution. But then the media kept on bringing alternative narrations. A popular one of the TV stations aired that whereas the government was advocating for guys to really take care of themselves through the protocols that were brought on board by world health organizations and MOH, there were billions of monies that the clarion version of money heist. Monies were being taken away, meant for public to help themselves from contacting the disease and whatnot. So whereas we want to really thank MOH and of course the entire government for moving with speed not only to update us on the curve how it's behaving but also giving aid to vulnerable communities, arid and semi arid lands receiving relief food and whatnot. We are also nostalgic about government's behavior borrowed from things that were aired on the media. So I think from my end it's been luqvum but we've tried in comparison with other states. I want to compare the South Africa as a nation. We did well. We really obeyed some of these guidelines that were brought on board. Guys began working from home, guys became birds to technology, guys would zoom and whatnot because they really felt that this pandemic, the way we are going to control it is by listening to what government is saying and staying at home. That's why to this date, I mean it's been four months and the curve is finally finding its way down. Life and normalcy is finally getting back and things like that. When we thought that we are going to have dead bodies in the streets of Nairobi, when we thought that government is going to procure these death bags so that mass graves and whatnot, the opposite has come on for. Now we can say that the numbers are going down, people are getting lives and the best thing is that vaccines that offer an antidote to this particular virus are being engineered. So we did well as a citizenry. I think it was the first, that very week when the COVID-19 was reported to have been confirmed in Kenya and the president called on the church. There were national prayers and it's true Kenya is a country that revokes the name of God. Today the numbers of fatalities as compared to other nations, you could say they are low. Yes, people have lost their lives, 500 and something, it's not just numbers, those are lives of people. But of course looking at our case Kenya, comparing to other nations. Are we favored of God? The prayers worked? Most definitely. I normally say that if there is a man to pray, then there is a God to listen and to answer those prayers. And I think we should wish him that we must never underestimate the power of prayer. Our God is real. And I can tell you just like socrates has said, there was a conversation that probably by September or August that Africa would be, people would be dropping dead. And I hear there were some people who were even preparing, they had bought many body bags, preparing for business. But you see God is not like a man, he is in heaven. And so I believe God just had mercy on us and then he favored us. And we also would like to thank God so much for the rapid response from different quarters. The doctors, the nurses, the religious leaders, the government. I think that concerted effort coupled up with prayer. People started, there was a time that people now took it seriously. And they started completely adhering to government's directive. Little things like washing your hands, putting on a mask, social distancing, avoiding crowded places. Because the same Bible tells us that faith without action is dead. That even in as much as you are casting God to protect, yes he will protect you. But he has also given us a mind. You cannot tell the Lord to protect you from the fire and then you walk right into the fire. You are telling God to protect you from the fire but when you get a fire extinguisher, you actually use it now to put out the fire. But I must agree with you that yes, we are favored of the Lord. Who are read not for the Lord. I think right now the situation will be totally different. You can remember the first time, man, my wife stayed in the house for three months. Fear, yes. And the restrictions that were there. And our children. In fact we remember where we stayed, we even, I think some few mamas, they just went to the garden and said, please can you just do not allow anybody to come in here. Because there was that atmosphere of fear, you don't know what will happen next. You remember, even there's a time, supermarkets, when you go to the shelves, there was nothing, there was panic shopping. People are buying all sanitizers, alcohol based tissue papers, food stuff. You get my point. Because people did not know what will happen next week. And so when you compare where we are at right now, from the beginning, I think God has been so gracious to us. We thank God that finally the card is flattening. We also thank God that slowly by slowly we are returning back to a new normal. Of course it will really take time before we get to where we were. In fact I don't think we will ever get to where we used to be. We've already been introduced to a new normal. There are some people right now, you've got it to a point where even if you don't wear a mask, you feel like there is something wrong, especially when you're in a mat or when you're in a crowded place. When you see a group of people and you're like, I don't have a mask. Exactly. And so we'd like to thank the very many people who just went down on their knees because that is the only hope that was left. True. Now Socrates, there are restrictions still enforced. Like the pubs are just the other day it was realized they were operating and it was not okay since there were MOH guidelines and protocols. The restaurants are operating within minimum time. If the president now elapses the or easins the restrictions that are currently enforced, do you think things will better in terms of the curve that you are seeing like it's coming down? Do you think things will be worse or will we have a likelihood of a surge in numbers? Well, I would want to downplay the likelihood of a surge because then look at the only place right now that is completely restricted in terms of access are pubs. Churches are beginning to have numbers despite directives. Restaurants arriving numbers despite all that. So you are not going to tell me that the moment we open the pub today we are going to have a surge. Well, there could be a surge but on a negligible percentage. It goes back to personal responsibility. It goes back to US Hillary, right? That this thing you've seen it, it's there, right? As much as you are a user to a pub you really don't want to go there as a person. You don't have to be forced by government. And I think right now government should shy away from doing the things they've done for the last four months but start giving civic education on how to approach COVID-19 mitigation at a personal level. They should find mechanisms of teaching communities that this thing now is a personal responsibility. It demands for certain level of discipline, right? Change of life, change of lifestyle, right? We have people who are at the red light. They are smartics, they are the diabetics and the sort of that group, right? So they have to find a way of offering certain level of capacity built into vulnerable communities. So that going forward the club is open, yes. It's very open. You have the freedom to walk in. But remember these are hot spots. So the discipline in your mind tells you that no, don't go there. There's a chance you'll catch this thing because you don't know who is in there, right? So I just think it boils down to personal responsibility. Let the government continue to put up the protocols, yes. For all the places President Uhuru is, we are really looking forward to him giving us a national directive going forward. But I strongly feel that they should transcede from offering all these things they are offering and all these numbers they keep on giving us to invest on capacity building for the societies around the Republic. Going forward, that will help. All right. Now Rev we must agree, lives were affected emotionally, economically. People lost their jobs. And I want to indulge in this. What did the church do even being closed at the time? Because now, yes, churches have begun operating not as normal. But now during that particular period of time when churches were closed, what were the church doing to the people? You see now when it was announced that now Kenya has been affected by COVID and there were lockdowns and the church was shut down, the schools were locked. Some people who were in businesses started shutting down and there were job losses and there was all this confusion that was happening and so many people suddenly slipped into depression because you're used to coming here every morning and now all of a sudden you're not coming here and this is where you get your daily bread. People started receiving half salaries, maybe the first month, the second month, by the third month some people are not receiving anything yet you have a family ticket. So one of the things that we did as a church is that we went to our reservoir, our reserve fund. There's a small fund that we normally have to support people and so some of the needy cases that were coming to the church we would give them food, right? Something at least to carry them through the week. Number two, we had some people coming in. At least people who were blessed by the Lord financially and then we opened up another kitty where people would just amalgamate their funds and then we would get a list of the needy people and we would give them food, we would give them clothes and then actually we also set up some kind of a canceling center where people would call and we would pray with them online and then we would just talk to them about just handling how do you handle this situation and we were not just talking to them from a spiritual point of view we were also trying to empower them that right now you're not going to work, yes. Is there any other thing that you can be able to do? Do you have a small piece of land in your backyard that you can farm some small spinach and skumawiki? Can you engage in some online business, all right? So that is partly what we were doing as a church. For clarification purposes is it the Anglican church or it's the joint churches that came together because I know you're representing particularly. Yes, I really cannot speak for the entire church in Kenya but at least the church that God has given me the privilege to serve the Anglican church of Kenya at least I know many parishes that is what they were doing and I probably went on social media you would see a lot of people lining up probably on a Wednesday or on a Friday lining up in a particular church just to go and receive food and any other thing and that tells you that the situation even some people who have never actually gone to church when it got to the worst of it they actually came to church because that is where they received hope and they received guidance and can I tell you something there's always a silver lining in every dark cloud I know of some people right now who have vowed that they are not going back to employment because it is during this season that they became so creative and innovative and they started doing something that is giving them much, a lot of money than what they used to receive when they were employed some of them realized that kumbe hava kahiden talent and I think this is what I would say that we've been introduced into a new normal and so as a church we just acted as a catalyst of doing these things truly self-realization and not the actualizing that now I want us to move to a different matter COVID-19 came years but it defunds us with an existing pandemic and this is the corruption there will never go a government's project that we will not hear of a scandal going on now politically speaking Socrates have we had the political will completely to end corruption in our country because there are many cases ongoing right now Thank you so much Hilary You call it a pandemic also man I think we are ready to we are ready to achieve to flatten the corruption curve in our country I don't know how long it will take Investigations have been done people have been pointed out I've stolen lots of money and you don't see them convicted for their offenses this is because perhaps they are very big guys in the government of the day and whatnot when COVID-19 came it got the corruption scourge existing and when the two mixed and formed a cocktail it became a disaster for recipe a recipe for disaster right I just think the way Revrenta say that COVID-19 has introduced us to ourselves we've learnt a lot about us that we didn't know we would say conveniently then that before COVID-19 we were in some sort of comfort zone right and therefore COVID-19 again should be a wake up call not only for the government of Kenya but governments around the world that the larger citizen deserves better services especially in facets like technology and healthcare these monies that you know it's through COVID-19 that I realised there's a lot of money in government that were hidden the president literally cut his salary and that of the executive so that communities can be cushioned monies were taken from the private sector you see bank pledging millions and millions of money to cushion the less privileged we should not wait for COVID-19 to do these things because we have arid and semi arid lands we have people dying of hunger every day before COVID we need to move with speed and tap this money that is lost in corruption and bring it back to the people we need policy review we need re-institution of these agencies that are tasked to make sure public money is used well and COVID-19 presented that opportunity to the government of the day any person, whether the existing president or people who aspire to be presidents you are only as good as your last story if president Uhuru can find a way of doing drastic policy review on integrity issues in this country that will be his last good story so we have an opportunity to end corruption let's identify these guys let's jail these guys let me tell you today if ACC would catch one top politician or two in government and send them for even 5 years in prison a good number 70% would shy from stealing government money and that will be the beginning of a beautiful journey as a country the other day we were celebrating Waluke's case the find that he has been given and by the way right now we have forgotten about him Kenyans will forget very fast I don't know how many Walukes we need to arrest and charge in court we need to learn that corruption is bad what is the role of the church in fighting corruption and impunity in our country because it has been rampant I love the way you call corruption a pandemic and rightly so because especially in Kenya anytime you look at the corruption index man it's like we are almost taking the middle because corruption is in its basic form betrayal of trust the abuse and misuse of entrusted power for personal or private gain where we entrust you with a public office thinking that you are going to fight for our interest and for the interest of the nation only for you to turn against us and start using the same position and office to enrich yourself in dubious ways and if let unchecked that is what has landed this nation into a ditch and by the way Kenya is an extremely rich nation if the natural resources in this nation are prudently managed I can tell you for a fact would eradicate poverty would eradicate poverty but the reason as to why we have become an unjust society an equal society is basically because of corruption and I believe from where I am seated with the hold of my hand that we can eradicate corruption just like Socrates was saying that the person who has been found stealing public money you know it's not about negotiation get them, take them to court follow due process and get them jailed apart from being jailed get their property and return it back to the public and that is what Zacius in the Bible did Zacius was a tax collector and during those days tax collectors were among the richest people in the society you all know why and so one day Jesus was passing by and he was preaching and by the day Jesus was a very just person he wouldn't stand in justice he always fought for the rights of the poor the lost, the lost and the least in the society so he was bashing the leaders of the day and that message really permeated heart into the heart of Zacius and when Jesus actually looked at him he saw this man is sorrowful it's like he's changing and he says by the day today I'm dining with you in your house and it was like yes you because Jesus had seen an opportunity to transform this man that has been stealing public money while they were eating the guy stands and says by the way I've been a corrupt person he admits and says everybody that I have defrauded I am ready and willing to pay back 4 times what he has taken and this is how we introduce justice into a nation and so one of the roles of the church in fighting against corruption is using the pulpit as a non-vocacy platform where you know we meet a lot of people once in a Sunday we have the opportunity to influence a lot of people and so we use the pulpit as a platform to speak anti-corruption messages and I'm an avid believer that the gospel the message of the gospel is not complete without an anti-corruption message truly we will be taking a very short break and when we come back socrates will tell us whether we have as a case we are ready to return what they have taken from the public keep sending us your comments or reactions to all our social media platforms at Y254 channel on Facebook and Instagram as well at Y254 channel on Twitter we take a very short break stay with us