 All right guys, what we're going to do is Defqons always played spot the Fed, right? How many of you have spotted a Fed before? None of you Okay, you're all fucking lying What the fuck are we doing up here anyway? Okay, here comes priest. What we're going to do is priest is going to pick on or not pick out What he looks what looks like a lame or we're going to play spot the lame or and you guys in the audience are going to Determine who the lame or is so Priest please you know pick out some You've watched full metal jacket stand up sir come on down private snowball come on down sir No, no don't sit down Is that you? Ted stand up Sit down. I Didn't say Simon says stand back up. Let's see how many times we can do this Well, there we go Uncle Sam's misguided children. Okay. What I was saying was We apologize. We are trying some new things in terms of crowd control. Obviously. It's not working this morning We apologize We do take your suggestions to heart. We do try to correct the problems that we find Obviously the one we have right now is not working We are also having a is anyone here from DHS Next panel is DHS and I can talk about them since they're not here It's the DHS experiment It's to find terrorists So the guy next to you is not sweating out in the hall probably a terrorist turn him in I Know it's you're not sweating Jim Like Jim explain we do the spot the Lamer So I'm going to walk amongst you and basically pick people out about five or six Just line up right here, please right out in front where everybody can see you Priest you're doing a good job. I don't think we need to go any further. These guys look pretty lame Or we'll kill you That's good priest. Thank you. You want to ask the first question No Okay, we're going to number you guys look at me One two three four five and six Okay, number one The question is where do you store your porn and you have to answer loudly? Lamer John Which one to you all can find yourself referring to anime characters that's hot Use the microphone guys Not you. All right number three What does a RBN stand for? Lamer, I'm not telling you to try Number four have you ever had a lightsaber fight in public? Number three, do you patch your neighbors network computers to avoid malware infestation while you borrow their wireless bandwidths? You love your laptop more than you love your significant other She just wants to answer Number five Pay attention here Because you could have done this when you were drunk and you might not remember that that's not an excuse Now have you ever have you ever tried to get a picture with Jim Christie? She's looked me in the eye That she remembers Jim Number six, okay, this is a hard one. How many episodes of Star Trek? Did will we didn't kiss a girl? Okay, we're gonna vote who thinks number one is the Lamer cheer clap nobody number two number three number four number five number six Okay, number one number four and number five and six can sit down Okay, we've narrowed it down All right, another round of questions number now. It's one and two, okay? One do you have a three and a half inch floppy? Alright number one what reading material do you keep in your bathroom? Reading material magazines It's on the op-ed Number two would you prefer to go out with a hot chick or play world of Warcraft? Tom number one Is your idea of a social event a LAN party? Number two name at least five Intel x86 machine instructions, that's enough Number one have you ever purchased virtual gold or virtual weapons with real money? Last question Chris Number two for you to be up during the day. Would you have to move to Tokyo for you to be away during the day? Would you have to move to Tokyo? Okay, this is the final vote number one I'm not sure I have to ask any more flippant questions number two Okay, number one you can have a seat number two if you would come up here, please Would like to present you with the coveted spot-the-lamor t-shirt Says a fence feds burn another one at DEF CON 18 All the fans have swag for you badge challenge coin patch This is this is the coveted National white-collar crime center pocket protector Take your hands out of your pockets. Excuse me, sir We also have a vacation All right, anybody else want to play some more contests okay This year we've been allotted two tracks. So the first track is to deal with criminal cases and Forensics and that kind of stuff. So we got mostly law enforcement guys up here At one o'clock, we have another panel to talk about Cyber strategies and policies. So if you'd come back at one o'clock for that. Thanks priest sure, please Thanks, please We have armed all our Panelists with our coveted bullshit flags So if we think your question is bullshit, we're going to let you know if we think That the answers are bullshit. We're also going to wave our flag. So, you know cheering is allowed Now we're going to just do a quick introduction and then we're going to open up the questions that we've got a microphone down here in the center aisle the center aisle this aisle Okay, I'm Jim Christie from the Department of Defense cyber crime Center Was a special agent with Air Force off special investigation for about 24 years Been a computer crime investigator the whole time John Tom in the interest of keeping this brief. I'm going to set the stage. I'm John Garris I run the NASA computer crimes division. We catch hackers over to you. My name is Barry Grundy I'm a assistant special agent in charge of the Treasury Department's Treasury Inspector General for Tax Administration in brief because I know that's a Familiar to a lot of people we oversee tax threats to tax administration internally and externally for the IRS My name is Trontima with the FBI I'll run the National Cyber Investigative Joint Task Force and I want to thank you for the job security My name is Tom Tolore. I'm a retired NASA executive I built the original computer crimes division at the NASA Inspector General's office and I've been retired for about 10 years. I had 31 years in federal law enforcement Morning, I'm Colonel Mike Convertino with the US Air Force commander of the 3 18th Information Operations Group my group performs reverse engineering malware analysis intrusion detection and and also Provides defensive mechanisms custom government only defensive mechanisms to Protect US Air Force and DoD networks Mike before you pass it on Are you recruiting this year? We are We have a large number of jobs that remain unfilled. We need good talent And we don't really turn anybody away even even when people have maybe Stepped across the line. We redirect them to our we don't turn anybody across as the line Special line for them. Well, yeah And that's that's part of my deal too. I actually have no authority to arrest you and I'm not interested in arresting you I'm here to recruit you. So Come see me after I'm Bob Hopper with the National Act for the Crime Center We teach state local law enforcement Computer forensics and as a side note, I've been coming here four years So I usually fly in on Monday and we do this and fly out on Saturday or Sunday I'm 32 years old This So this is what this will do to you Loud Chris Hi, I'm Chris Mitchell. I'm a civilian member with the Royal Canadian Mount Police. I helped develop forensic software for a tech crime program Okay We need questions. This is this is all for you guys. So line up. Let's have some questions Come on, come on Determine later, of course Yes, sir. Hi, I heard just heard recently that the Mastermind behind the Mariposa botnet was just taken down. Do you guys have any information on that? Yeah, the Slovenian police arrested them Tuesday The Spanish police arrested a few other people. I think early this summer long was stuff that we did domestically. Yeah, it just happened Nobody's behind you. We got a second question Okay Line up guys if you have questions Do you folks communicate with each other on problems issues? How do you think they got here? No, I mean at work and I was do you do are there interagency connections between you guys For everything or is it just certain? No, we don't talk to each other at all. I've never met these people in my life Yes, we do we have we there's there are a lot of working groups and task forces that work on various cybercrime issues in particular the IG's the treasurer inspector general and for tax administration and the NASA IG the smaller Computer crimes unit actually do rely on each other on the FBI and some of the larger agencies very much for Intelligence and support in the field. So yes, there is there's this carry to local areas In other words like sheriff's departments and police, you know city police forces and so on. Yes, it does and it's US wide then It's actually international not just us It just will a Canadian man police they come from Canada How do you guys really feel about the cyber command and why aren't they here today? No cyber commands here. You just don't know where they are Yeah, you know I'm the Air Force and every service has a component that it offers Forces that it offers to cyber command. So when you say cyber command is not here I guess I'm effectively their representative. So if you have any questions, let me know I can probably spot 12 if you want Like this field has been pioneered by people who had been breaking the law now when I was like You know going through my training and all that the message was that in order to stop this behavior We have to stop hiring the people who are violating the systems that we're building now What I just heard is that you know you're looking for people and you're not Too worried about the fact that lines have been crossed has is that a shift again in the industry position? Well, I'm the one who said that I didn't mind people crossing the line But remember these guys are law enforcement guys, so they do care if you cross the line But I'm not What I will have what I will do is even after you've paid your debt to society In terms of these guys we kind of direct people to our support contractors so people can do white world research unclassified research on all sorts of malware and Still contribute, you know to the Air Force and the defense of the country to be able to work For any one of our agencies you're going to probably have to get a clearance and there'll be a background investigation So if you have broken the law in probably the last five years that will probably eliminate you for For a period of time if you've stayed clean for five years You're probably going to be eligible for independent on how severe a crime you committed So, you know, it's dependent and there has to be a period of time where you're you're clean Anybody else? Well, yeah on that. I mean if you're leet, I want to talk to you I mean it doesn't matter and we may not be able to give you a TSSEI clearance, but I still want to talk to you Hi working in the Private space with consumer protection with a lot of the threats that are out today fake antivirus phishing things like that It's been very hard to get law enforcement engagement for you know Hey, somebody just lost 50 bucks over there Where at scale it's billions of dollars, but it's just in all these little drips What are your thoughts on how law enforcement can get a better handle on that and how can private industry? Interface better with law enforcement to ultimately get prosecution so the National White Color Crime Center and the FBI Have a facility in West by God, Virginia Called the Internet Crime Complaint Center We take complaints online from victims and we don't really care whether you lost five bucks or five hundred bucks The FBI is does a really really good job of doing analysis on those cases and following up With those investigations that meet their threshold what we do with our analysts from our Side of that is take those cases that don't meet the FBI threshold do some analysis on those cases and Hand those off with that analysis to both sides of the jurisdiction so the jurisdiction that That's got the victim and the jurisdiction that's got the suspect and we put those two investigations together Just we had a conversation about this yesterday about ISPs and Credit card companies and various other people that are involved in in the fraud chain Retaining data because what we find is that that person that lost twenty dollars That normally wouldn't have their case investigated might be part of Fraud that that's a million dollar fraud once you cobble all those cases together So once they're aggregated and codified into one single investigation that victim might actually get some satisfaction so what you commonly hear is that person has Reported a crime and they might not think it got investigated when in fact it did and the case was filed as a large Fraud case they just weren't Called to testify So they actually might not know that that the case I actually got investigated Yeah, to piggyback on what hop was saying we benefited from the IC triple triple C's work Internet crime complaint center on a Nigerian case where NASA was victimized But it wasn't quite at the level that was enticing To many U.S. Attorneys offices particularly in the larger jurisdictions like Washington, D.C. New York We go there we found out that our guy was directly associated with Over 750 thousand dollars of lost complaints and we know that's just a fraction of the damage that he's done That tipped the scale and got people interested and we ended up arresting him and you spent a year and a half in Nigerian prison. I think that's a pretty good a pretty good outcome So so the complaint center The number of complaints has just grown phenomenally over the last three or four years I think last year we we're bumping a million complaints a year we also put in a We wrote a program that It's called ISIS that Helps state and local law enforcement With the analysis and cobbling together those cases it gives them the ability to communicate back and forth From both sides of that from the suspect side and the victim side And it's it actually works pretty well, and that was an excellent question And I will give you this pocket protector Knowing that you can put this on eBay and probably make as much as two dollars Hop hop or even autograph that for you guys who are standing in the back There are seats up here in the front, and we got your picture back there anyway, so you might as well come on out All right, the next question is the STS endeavor metal for you, man. I can see it cyber security act of 2009 I'd like to hear the panel's opinion in their position Could you repeat the question The cyber security act of 2009 Your position you could just go for against We're law enforcement. We enforce the law. I mean the Congress did a great job making Hey, we gotta have jobs where we go, you know, I was just wondering if the current position towards the Classified networks Do you think that it actively does enough assuming that since it doesn't close network that? Security features don't need to be a strict or stigs don't need to be as enforced Mike you look like you chomping there, so I mean the your question is a Little nabbed script, but okay as far as Security you're asking about security on our secured networks Okay, our classified networks. Well, we're not gonna really talk about that too much But you know, I mean certainly the posture on on secured networks is at or above What you might expect to see on our on our unclassified networks just because their criticality the value of the information and And and the fact that frankly some of the information on those networks could get people killed if it was revealed So it's it's really important You know that we make sure those systems are protected as best we can. I mean that's pretty you know generic answer But you know, it's kind of obvious from that This could be considered a follow-on What's the latest excuse for the leakage of 96,000 classified documents? from the secured network It just takes one stupid motherfucker That's that's a human problem one lion motherfucker with no integrity. That's all it takes Well Now you know why we have a lot of feds in the criminal cases that you guys are working on Are there any statue of limitations in the crimes that you're that they're being committed? Depending on the crime there are statues of limitations that you know, you'd be outside the scope But actually what so you did the crime did the hack at say in the 90s and we didn't find out about it Actually, the clock starts ticking when we discover it and start working the case. So It depends so as long as you're working on the case It's it's a whether there are statute of limitations spending on the violation if you don't what you're actually going to charge with If you don't gather enough evidence to complete it that you can talk to me later afterwards and I'll be happy That's an interesting question. Do you have a specific date? Yeah Cut through the bullshit and just confess right here You guys talked about working groups between agencies and sharing information What about What opportunities are there with private sector? Working with law enforcement as private sector are exposed to the same threats often times And they might have visibility that could benefit law enforcement and then law enforcement Could also provide information to the private sector to help protect their networks. There seems to be a little bit of a Information gap and some of the sharing that goes on between those two there is but we're working on it. So What we do every day is is Work with state and local law enforcement and in some cases federal law enforcement Part of our job we have the ability to kind of wear the government hat and the private sector hat because we're a nonprofit So we work real closely with people like Cisco and Samantek and Mantek and McAfee and and on and on and on and We do just exactly what you're asking about we bring those experts from those entities to the table with law enforcement experts and Identify it from both sides the gaps as best we can Do you also work with private companies other than the commercial security? We do. Yes, we do. I Think often all the panelists up here We actually have tight relationship with private companies, you know Not just infrastructures not the big companies stuff like that because that's the only way you find out what's going on out on the net It's actually building those Relationships and speed is trust. It's commonly done in the Department of Defense We have a pilot program where we're actually sharing with a critical infrastructure to the cleared contractors the defense industrial base classified threat information To protect their their network. So we are sharing classified information In this particular pilot program. Is there an opportunity for private industry to become classified or not and non Contractors to be able to obtain that threat information under some sort of vetted Community, that's a policy question. You should hold for DHS in the second panel And just shift gears a little bit on the internet gaming enforcement Act There's a lot of these servers that are affected by that or overseas and I was curious about your approach to enforcement on overseas gaming resources and Second the follow-up to that are you going to come after my poker stars bankroll? Yeah, that's a part of that. Yeah, we're going to seize that Now you're talking like online gaming. Yeah, I'm like gaming the online gaming act that is in Congress, right? The one thing with online gaming is obviously it's a very it's a challenged one to enforce and to because where the servers are You know around the world or you know protection So that that actually there has been some looks at looking at it the departments looked at it But it's it is a challenge. I mean we're that's that's a hard one in force Is it just a jurisdiction challenge or is it a a challenge that they're just there sovereign countries? Well, I think it's more jurisdiction in sovereign countries because that that That creates the problem where your servers are overseas Do you guys know who the video professor is? The free um trials. I only recently discovered that if you get the free trial because my grandparents asked me about this and After 10 days of getting after you get the CD if you don't send it back They're gonna charge your credit card $200 and that's obviously a scam, but the small print is on the website So what do you guys if anything can you do about? Shady gray area stuff like that He's working for us out of here 51 Actually in that gray area of the the FTC Federal Trade Commission had some Authorities and powers to address that that's where I would suggest you direct the complaint And those gray areas where there's no clear violation of law and actually with your state Attorney General's office Seriously with that bring it up because the the state might have problems with that more than the federal government Right, right. Thanks. So this one's for my northern brother on the end here You said you're a developer Okay, um, no offense to you. I was just wondering why didn't the RCMP or CSIS send an investigator? Why did they send a developer? They're standing in line behind you Pardon me. They're standing in line behind you. Oh No Well part of the reason I'm here is actually to attend some of the conferences and learn a lot So I guess they thought maybe I would be able to Take away a significant portion from that. I hope so you got the short straw From a law enforcement standpoint It's come out in several reports that the majority of the hosting services that have spam and other malicious activities taking place Actually exists in the United States Much of these activities are somewhat illegal and detrimental to our overall security and well-being What if anything is law enforcement able to do or doing to assist in shutting down many of these hosting services That have these spam and other malicious activities taking place. Well, actually we've realized some success working with the FBI Secret service of how many people have heard of Makolo? Makolo actually was taken offline by their upstream providers because there was just a storm of complaints for such a period of time Ultimately, we got a search warrant which totally brought down their systems review of the data realized reveal the fact that they were opening up other bulletproof hosts I mentioned the FTC as you might imagine a lot of the criminal element that's using these these Rogue ISPs They're operating are overseas and we may not have a multilateral assistance treaty or any type of treaty for extradition So and in that particular instance on three FN price worked the other bulletproof hosts quote-unquote We partnered with the FTC and they have authorities for seizure When it's clear we provided evidence as long as along with other IT security researchers University of Alabama spam house etc a lot of people that the community really worked in this instance They provided enough evidence For the FTC to go under their authorities of forfeiture Apply for that and the judge ruled in the favor. So basically shut shut their entire ISP down And they also have a one million dollar fine on top of that. So in this particular instance We extracted some pain from the people providing the rest of his pain It's not the perfect solution particular for the law enforcement folks who want to see people in cuffs, but it's better than nothing Yeah, and going to a earlier comment you made about the Mariposa botnet takedown It sounded like you said it was a legal thing But was it not actually led by a commercial entity to actually take down the botnet itself and then followed up by other legal action and Now applying that standard to other botnets around the world Are we are we're going to have to look at commercial entities going after these things rather than actual law enforcement? Rendering some type of service to take these botnets down. I Think the answer question. It's more that yeah, we're going to work. It's a bigger problem It's not just the law enforcement or feds and rate jackets coming out. It's going to be a community Working together to bring down these things Given there just quickly follow up on that I'm aware of three cases just in California Where there might be some people in this room that helped out on them, but I would expect there probably is but But it was true partnership between people in the industry Basically collecting the evidence And handing it off to the right people and it was the FBI and FTC and and In one one case They chased a bad guy through Three ISPs finally completely got him shut down, but a lot of the bulk of that work was done by By people in the industry So that great partnership Law enforcement certainly at the state and local level don't have the capacity To impact that kind of problem. I mean that's truly just if the FBI and US Secret Service Some other federal agencies weren't there it wouldn't get impacted at all Given that there's been a modicum of success in prosecuting cyber criminals the big ones and that the cyber crime is not Taken as seriously not sensational to say a bank robbery in person and that the district attorneys are forced to use archaic laws and Establishing jurisdiction and account access. Do you see a point in time where the cyber laws? Both in this country internationally catch up with the cyber the cyber crime as it happens Certainly hopes up So it may be coming from another direction so that the Department of Justice just Three weeks ago announced the formation of a number of intellectual property task forces around the country So some of that's driven by cyber and some of it's not But that product That that has an access to cyber is probably going to get impacted by those task forces I see hope on the horizon just because it's on the it's on the president's agenda You know in the top five probably to address your question a little bit differently I spent a lot of time in the 90s and earlier Working to develop all those cyber laws we have now with the Department of Justice and a lot of people like me did In the United States we have very robust laws Ironically some of the civil liberties built into our cyber laws are stronger than those that are built into our Corporeal space laws that existed before cyberspace the issue For all of us that work in this field and worked in this field is these cases are international in nature And we're slammed 18 hours a day working them the operational tempo is very large And so when you work with nations overseas that either don't have these laws don't care We'll have ethics issues with their good governance issues You combine all those issues since these cases are international in nature. It becomes more difficult It just doesn't become a US legal issue to resolve them You have to work through these international issues You got to keep in mind over it acts taken on the part of anybody not just a nation-state can constitute an act of war in cyberspace, so We're good. We're in good shape in the US, but in other countries. It's not quite that way Thank you. Well, I'm going to follow up on that Dirty little secret is that the number one cybercrime in the world it has nothing to do with intrusions you know, it's child pornography and so the limited resources that Federal state and local law enforcement have a great deal of those resources are put to The predators that are preying on children And unfortunately in a lot of cases especially at the state and local level intrusions aren't looked at It's a matter of resources What are the panel's views on? The US government's desire capability to shut down the internet in the case in the event of a cyber attack. I Think there are two bills currently in the Congress that have been considered Question I've got is whose lead federal agency for a large-scale cyber attack You know who would take command control during a large-scale cyber attack such as something against critical infrastructure More than one area. So just example healthcare transportation, etc. Etc. Probably the FBI It depends on how it comes in I mean if you have like when I was at NASA we had 24-hour a day surveillance of our networks and sometimes we were the major victim if we were the major victim We would have the lead in the matter because we had the corporate knowledge We had the infrastructure and the resources in the area But as we're watching a tax come across the line often we'd see the Department of Agriculture or the Department of Commerce IBM is a victim. We don't have jurisdiction to invest to investigate Incidents in those departments. We either have to refer to the matter to those departments if they have cyber Investigative resources or not the FBI has jurisdiction across the government and they could go in and handle an issue For example in one of these other departments that we don't have jurisdiction in so in a situation like a Titan rain you know redo in other words, you know attack against let's say defense or I know another agency that is outside of the networks, you know controlled by Department of Justice What you're talking about is a team sport and that's why everybody's up here The FBI leads the National Cyber Investigative Task Force For that reason everybody here just about is at that table plus You know and it's a team sport divide and conquer everybody has everybody's a sensor today So when you're attacked you got to gather the information from all the different sensors and analyze it You know it's definitely a team sport today the people in the individual agencies that are law enforcement officers Like I was at NASA or when I was with the NCIS or the Defense Criminal Viscuit Service We're supposed to have vast vertical knowledge of what's going on in that department because that's something the FBI just can't have they got Too many things to do Going laterally across the US nation's law enforcement effort So when you combine these vertical and lateral approaches you hopefully get the type of team support you need to get things done That's what we try to do This question is for the two NASA gentlemen on the on the panel I've worked on a lot of doD networks and and I know that it's really difficult in the NASA organization based on the Leadership style of NASA different from the other doD networks And I was wondering if you could speak to maybe two different items One is on an enterprise level. How do you? Protect the individual machines because we know that the border is as safe as it can be But most of the users are inviting the bad guys in and so how do you detect the individual machines on the Downside and what kind of tools are you going to put in and what do you think the next best thing coming out of NIST? Will be to help with that Well, I'll let John answer what's going on at NASA presently and I'll be led to a historical perspective after that With regard to the approach with NASA first of all NASA has several missions The human spaceflight mission. I'm proud to report so far knock on wood It's pretty locked down the science mission on the other hand by statute is required to share data with the public And they do that through an extensive association with the educational Institutions not just in the US but across the globe so the attack surface for NASA is significantly higher than many of your US agencies That's not an excuse that it is what it is and also gives us a lot of business quite frankly but as far as the approach for Locking down the networks. I mean we're the agency is trying to do what everyone else is doing a defense in-depth approach Which is the only way it's going to work Hopefully that that answered your question I was just wondering if there was any enterprise tools that you were going to be introducing to help you with that The CIO's office, which I can't speak for directly is deploying various tools for an enterprise wide approach Can't endorse anything here Yeah, there was an article. I think a couple months ago from a Canadian University that identified a covert channels I guess hacking the Indian Indian Ministry of Defense for a number of years My question to you guys is that are there like contacts? You know who we start with on your guys aside To communicate if we thought there was some kind of a covert channel going on from our company To kind of start that process for identifying if in fact that you know is the case and You know how there was another I went to a security event where they The presenter was a was a private company a security company that said there was upwards of 80% of the corporations out There had some kind of a root kit And that you know these kind of channels are quite common whether or not they're being used is Is the other thing you know they might not be used The best thing to do if you're reported is get to know your friendly neighborhood FBI agent and Bring that to them so you can start with FBI or any of the any people in the panel I mean if the company's affiliate with doing defense contracts They want to talk into this the Air Force work talk to the Air Force so as high as it's NASA work talk to NASA There's a lot of places they can go it just depends upon if it's a pure commercial business and commercial fraud I wish we should involve the FBI be most likely your best best call now and do you guys see that or work with those people? those kind of you know events You actually see that every day every day Unfortunately, this is gonna be the last question guys. We're out of time. So make it very short. Thank you most likely it's more directed toward DHS but I wanted to have your viewpoint and opinion on this with the critical importance of the net I understand the argument to network shaping and traffic control of ISPs in the government influence in that but In lieu of protection of the First Amendment rights and equal access to the network as it's so important to our lives What is your response to network neutrality? Considering that P2P is under scrutiny and now that P2P is actually being used by commercial vendor and Also the issue brought to light By the shadow factory. It's a book that talks a lot about this. I suffer from ADD. Can you like shorten that up? Sorry about that. Just give us a quick question because we're short on time. What is your viewpoint on net neutrality? Well, I'm an old-timer and I was brought up on the internet and command line Unix Way back working cybercrime cases, you know, 79 80 time frame So I kind of believe in the old internet personally speaking for myself. I like it. I don't like all this regulatory oversight Personally speaking I'm retired. I can say any fucking thing. I want to The real problem you have in this country is it's very interesting We live in a Constitutional Republic, but we have vast laws that criminalized about everything And so you've got this conflict between openness versus security and democracy and it's a difficult issue Thank you I want to encourage everyone up there because I understand your difficult jobs But to press forward with net neutrality because honestly, that's the way we're gonna make us stay the US Okay, guys, thanks a lot. Don't forget we have another meet-the-fed panel on policy at one o'clock right here We do have a couple of bullshit flags Okay, and also we're gonna take these fine folks right across the halter room 111 So if you were online and did not get your question answered they will be able to do it over there And please exit to the right