 Thank you for joining me as I sit down with Pastor David and Marie Rosales from Calvary Chapel, Chino Valley, as we discuss marriage, raising children, and managing difficulties that arise in the family. We're ready to begin, so let's talk marriage. You know, speaking on that pastor, would you be able to describe the different meanings of love that are represented in the Greek? Because I want to go somewhere with some of these different types of love that are described in Greek. What are they, pastor? You know, if anybody is really interested, I believe that C.S. Lewis wrote a book called The Four Loves, and he does a scholar's job on the Greek and all of that. You have eros, which was a physical attraction, physical love, erotic. You have stargay, which is more of a fleshly kind of love. It's not the deepest form of love, but it's a word that's used to describe it sometimes. You have agape, which is the highest form of love, and you have filial. And filial is the brotherhood or sisterhood, relational love. And so there are aspects of love that are found in scripture. The three loves that are most commonly used scripturally, though, are the eros and the filial and the agape. And so one of my professors said, whether this true or not, I don't want to pass bad information on to our viewers. But one of our professors said that agape was really a word that was coined to express the kind of love that God had that was almost, and I don't want to stumble any of my scholars who may very well stumble across this. I don't want to come off like a Greek scholar. I'm not. But my professor said that agape was almost an invented word to try and describe the highest form, the highest form of love, which is a self-sacrificing, self-giving love. Filial was the more common friendship, kind of love that you would have. And eros was the physical aspect, and it didn't even have to be, quote unquote, a real love, is a physical drive that is consummated in physical activity. And so in marriage, the highest form of relational love should be agape, because Jesus loved us and we're to love our wives as a man, like Christ loved the church. And so the word agape is a word that would be used to describe that, which is the self-sacrificing, dying to self-kind of love. But at the same time, you know, Paul speaks concerning not defrauding my wife. And when you speak about not defrauding my wife, that he said, if you separate it all, make it for just a time for prayer and then come back. And what's he referring to, you know, not plain checkers, he's talking about physical love. He said, and the woman and the man actually have a debt to one another to fulfill that aspect of their love relationship. And so Paul made it very clear that when within the confines of marriage, sexual activity occurs, it has been created to be pleasurable. And it's intended by God to be enjoyed by those who are married, not simply to have children, because some can't have children, but because it is the highest form physically, physically, of showing the intimacy that occurs between a man and a woman who become literally one in their activity through intercourse. And so there's an actual unity that goes deeper. And so there's that erotic love. But the filial love, I would say that in my marriage with Marie over the years, you know, the filial has been the most common one. It's the friendship, it's that, you know, again, we hold hands, we don't even realize we're doing it. You know, it's true, you know, or at night when I'm in bed about to go to sleep, I'll feel a little hand reach over and touch my hand as she goes to sleep, you know, that's what she does. You know, that's just us, we don't think about it. And that there is a friendship, that's friendship, what we're doing here, this we enjoy each other and we kind of, you know, that's the way it is. And so I would say if you asked, you know, what has been the the thing that kept you together? We're friends. We're friends, first and foremost, but I love her with a an agape love, you know, because she's my girl. And the other aspects of love that are natural for those relationships have been part of us. But if you said, what do you think is going to keep you going? And I'll give you an example of what I'm trying to say. What's going to keep you going when you're old and old and old? We're old now, but say God gives us 20 more years. You know, well, I saw a picture of an old man, probably 90 plus years old and an older woman, his wife, and they weren't well. And but they couldn't be apart from one another. And they were in a room together. And and she's in her little cot, because they're not well. And he's in his little cot. And but they had to be in the same room. And they're reaching out across that divide holding hands. And my daughter, daughter in law, but she's my daughter, my Kareena said, I don't know if you're going to love it. This is kind of corny. And and I my tears started for me. I said, That's us. See, as long as I have her, and it's not sexual. It's not if I got her hand. I mean, heaven. And that's that's love, you know, that's friendship. And that's us. That's us. People see that. And that's us, you know, we need each other, you know, we need each other. And when I have everything with her, I'm free to love other people. Because I don't have any agenda. I don't have an agenda. I'm, I'm, I'm, she's safe and I'm safe. We're safe with each other. So I can love other women deeply. But I don't have the same love. I have love only for this woman. That kind of love, right? And that's all built on our friendship. So which one of these meanings of love is difficult for a husband to practice? Well, I don't think he'll ever have problems with erotica. I don't even think of that. Aros, are you kidding? No, I don't think Aros, let's just throw that out right now. I don't think he'll ever have a problem with that. I think that the the love that requires the deepest sacrifice is the agape. Yeah, because that is dying to self. And you can be a selfish friend sometimes, but you can't really love with the agape and be selfish at the same time. So I would say that the more pure and the higher and the most holy is agape. And that's what you seek the Lord for. Agape love is the, uh, the mark of a believer. And agape love is evidence of God's Spirit's presence in your life. And so it's the fruit of the Spirit. And so I would say that's the one to be pursued because when, when you do have the agape for your wife, when you have that, I'll lay my life down for you the way Christ did for the church. That's the highest form of expression that you can have. And so friendship has kept us together. It will always keep us together. Agape is what has made it deep and it's made it multi-dimensional. Yeah, so I would say agape is to be pursued, but it's expressed through your friendship. Would you say that in order to have the other, the filial and the other forms of love in a marriage that agape is the one that will allow those other ones to take place? Agape is the root of all other love. Um, so yeah, if, if, if you walk in the Spirit, then you don't fulfill the desires of the flesh. And so if you say, Lord, I want to be filled with your spirit and I want to express who you are to this world. Well, who is, who is he if he's not a loving, caring, compassionate, sacrificial God? Right? And so that's been my prayer. I've said this to our church, John. Perhaps you've heard, I don't know if I've said this recently, but the oldest prayer that I've prayed over the years, and it's been almost 50 years, it'll be 50 years in December that I came to faith in Christ. So it's almost 50 years of my life. I have prayed one prayer consistently and that is God teach me to love. And so fill me with your spirit as I want to love. I want to be a loving person. And so that's the key. And so if I can't love this woman here who's given me all, she, she held nothing back, John. She's held nothing back, nothing. You know, I, I, I don't deserve that. So I asked the Lord, help me to, to, to, to cherish and treasure that and to act the way that ought to provoke and be activity. Help me to act like I believe that. And I hope she knows that. I think she does, you know, all these years. I think she does. But that's what I do. And I think, well, would I tell any man, you know, die to self and love your wife? You know, it's interesting how Paul doesn't command the wife to love the husband, but he says, husbands love your wives, you know, you know, because Adam already had a job before he had a wife. He already was out there tending the trees in the garden. He was already doing fellowship with God. And so he's commanded to love her. It's interesting. She was created to love him. She was taken out of him and became his woman. But he already had other things going before he had her. And I suspect that there's some general truth in that with guys and get caught up in the jobs and their, their hobbies and other things and neglect our wives. But to me, and I've said this in church more than once. I told my kids this too. I've said, you know, one day I won't be doing what I do. One day I'll be quote unquote retired. And I told him, I want to be ready. I want to know this woman so I don't have to know who she is after I retire. And because a lot of guys hiding their jobs and their hobbies. And now they have no more jobs. And they're, they're, they can't play softball anymore and they can't do things, their activities and their hobbies bowling or shooting their weapons or whatever they like to do. And now they're sitting on a chair with this woman they don't even know. Who are you? Yeah. Your wife says you want some coffee and you say, you like coffee? You know, they don't even, they don't even know her. You know, well, I made my mind up. You know, Bible tells us, Peter said, do I with your wives according to knowledge? So I study her. You know, I, I, I study my wife. She knows this. She says it. No, you study me. And I do. And I study, I watch her. I, I, I could, I can tell you, I can tell you pretty much everything I could know of all these years of studying her. I know my wife. I know my wife. And she'll tell you that. There'll be times she'll start saying something. I'll say, oh, because, and she'll go, yeah. And that's, that's not bad. That's knowing your wife, you know. And the blessing is sometimes she'll say, uh, no, there was something else. Now I learned something new. So all of that's good. And same, same is true with her. And she, she knows me. And I'll look at her and I'll say, you think I'm going to say this, don't you? She'll go, yeah, I'm not. I'm saying something different today. Well, really, you know, new. This is new, you know, so. Well Marie, if I were to ask you, uh, from a woman's perspective, which meaning of love is it difficult for the wife to practice if there is a difficulty in, in, in the meanings that pastor had given the Eros, the phileo and the Sturgy? Well, I would say, I would say the sexual, I think women have a tendency. I think a lot of women would withhold from their husband, um, because they get upset with them. I think I would say that's probably the most, most, most of the women have problems in that area. I would think, because if they think that their husband's not loving them, then they're not going to want to love them. It's a, it's, it's, it's, it's a terrible thing to, what's the word? What's the word I wanted? Bargaining. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You shouldn't be bargaining. I mean, I mean that, that part is not to be bargained. But I think that, I think that many people do, um, you hear a lot of, uh, problems in that area. In that area. You know, what's interesting is, is, uh, at least from a male's perspective, I can't speak on a female's perspective. It's funny, uh, I've seen and I've heard also that there can be an argument between the husband and wife or a disagreement and then, you know, then the husband's, uh, ready to be intimate in some ways. And the wife's like, no way. There's that different connection where men have, can have the capability of just having intimacy, uh, even after an argument where a woman's like, there's much more involved for a woman. And so there can be that disparity sometimes, which I find interesting of having that, uh, as well. And it's very real. I believe it's very real with the women. They, they, uh, hold on to grudges. Can, and yet, that's. They become tunative and they bargain. You know, that does happen. A tick for tack or the, if you're going to do this, I'm going to do that. Well, if you didn't do this for me, then I'm. Or they use their sexuality to get something they want. That's true. That's very true. Because a man, a man, a man normally, like you just said, uh, you know, man doesn't even need to know the woman's name, right? He doesn't need to know who you are, where you're from, anything. And, and there was a time when women actually valued themselves enough to think that those things are important. And sometimes it's sad, but sometimes women today, uh, may not see the value, uh, of what intimacy actually is. And in marriage, like Maria's saying, of course, she's right about that. Um, yeah, women, women can, because we hear this, we're ministers. I mean, we've been doing this for a long time. These are, these are things that people say to us. And, and Marie can speak, uh, you know, because she's spoken to hundreds, thousands over the years of women. And there's no doubt about that, that they use, uh, sexuality as, as a bargaining chip, or they use the word, uh, tell me I'm wrong on this one, or they say, I don't feel like it. That's right. No, I don't feel, yeah. I don't feel like it. Now, man's always going to feel like it. You know, there's a difference between men and women. You know, women say, no, I don't feel like it. You know, and then she punishes them. Yeah, it's true. You know, or whatever. Now, Marie said more than one conversation like that. Yes. It's interesting how that, and then the man cannot love her and it, then she cannot kind of hold out in the same time. And so it starts this. Yeah. The man begins to feel like she's, um, she's holding out on him, withholding from him, punishing him. And then he'll go into whatever. Some guys will do this. So say, I don't really think he'd do, you know. I mean, there's someone on a street corner right now, or I've got somebody in, on the job. I, when Marie and I first got married, I, I had a job, um, working in an office and, and, um, I, I, as a younger man, it's, I, you know, people don't know me very well on a personal level. They only know me as a pastor, but somebody working on the job site, you know, it's kind of, I was a friendly person. You know, uh, I like to say how friendly Marie is because she is. Uh, I am too though. You know, I'm the kind of person that, you know, I like to laugh and joke, get to know people. And when I was on the job site, I did that. And, and again, I'm a, a newly married man. And there's these two young women working in, in an office. And I had to, interact with them every day, every day, because they were part of my department, right? I'm not thinking anything of it. And I go walking in one day. And this one young lady says to me, um, my, my parents are gone. I was a young man then. My parents are gone for the weekend. And, and I live in Downey. And I at that time was living in Norwalk. I said, oh, she goes, yeah, I live in Downey. My parents are gone. Um, you ought to come and pick me up and bring me to work. And I looked at her and I didn't say anything. I just kind of like, I didn't, I, no, I didn't hear that. And she said, you ought to, yeah, you ought to, you know, come on over. And, and the girl, her friend said, did you hear what she just told you? You know, she's inviting you. You know, she made it very clear. And I looked at her and I, I said, I said, something or other. And I went to my desk and I thought about it. And later on I told Marie, I said, I was hit on today, you know, and I was very uncomfortable with that. See, like I said, from the beginning I've told Marie these things. Well, John, that was when I was probably 25, 26, 26 years old. And so I planted our church. I was probably 31 or 32. And I used to stand in the back of the church at the end of services. And here comes this woman who had told me, did you hear what she said? And she had gotten saved. And she was going to Rawls Church in West Covina. And she says to me, do you remember me? Her name was Teresa. And I said, oh, yes, I do. You know, how are you, Teresa? I just, she said, I heard you got saved. I wanted to come to see, or I heard you pastor to church. I just wanted to come and see if it was you. It is you. And I wanted you to know that I gave my heart to Christ. And I'm serving the Lord at Rawls Church, my husband, this is my husband, so and so. And I'm looking back at a few years and I'm thinking, if I'd have been a jerk, if I'd have been flirtatious, if I'd have acted interested, what would that have done? Imagine, wow, what would that have done? You know, you never know. You never know. So it's for me, it's always, you know, just pursue the wife of your youth and always be ravished with her love like Proverbs says. If you can finish this sentence, if you both want to share, friendship with my husband, wife means. Chili beans. Speaking of chili beans, this is a shout out. Those cookies were really, really good. They weren't for you, John. I know. My wife had to hide them. They were so good. What was the question again? If friendship with my wife, was friendship with my husband slash wife means for to finish the question, finish that sentence. Just being with them. Just enjoying them. Anywhere you are, you're home. You know, Marie and I, it doesn't matter where in the world we are. As long as she's next to me, I'm home. So I'm complete with her. That means the world to me friendship with him. And so, like he said, it's just, we come home and we're there. It's just us. Two old people. Two old people kind of rolling around a house banging on each other. No. We don't. Marie, you know, as we were speaking earlier about sometimes using the different types of love to hold out from the husband, are there any repercussions when a wife lays down her life for her husband only to receive approval from him? I would think so. I would think that there would be only to receive approval from him. I would think so, John. Some of those things can be, I mean, I'm only doing it for him. I'm only doing it for her, which then doesn't, we're not doing it for the Lord anymore, right? It's now become about that person and what they can give me. Yeah. It's a take, a mentality rather than a give, willfully, lovingly giving. That's dangerous. That's a dangerous place to be. A give and take situation. Because as Pastor mentioned, what happens is potentially it can open the door for, well, if you're not going to, you know, if you're not going to give me what the things I need or the appreciation I, then I'm going to find, I'm going to look elsewhere. Exactly. And it can be dangerous. Yeah. It will be dangerous if you live your life together like that. A give and take. No, it's not about me. It's about him. The most important thing that you have to have in your relationship, and I know that Marie would agree with this, is a personal walk with the Lord. Yes. You know, when a man's ways please the Lord, he makes even his enemies to be at peace with him. When a man is seeking to please the Lord, he can be at comfort in his home. And when a woman's, see, so Marie, Marie cannot, and she knows this, so I can, I'll answer for her, because I know this is what she's saying to you right now, and I'll say it my own way, but I think I'm saying what she's saying. Yes. Marie wants to please me. I mean, she's supposed to, and I want to please her too. But she knows that if she tried to always please me, she can't, because I can change my demands. I can change what pleases me right now. And so she'll always be trying to figure out what can I do to make him happy. But if she pleases the Lord first, if she pursues the Lord, if she's in the Word with the Lord in prayer, in fellowship with God, has friends, she's growing spiritually. And as she's growing, those are the things that make her fulfilled. And when she's fulfilled, she's able to give to me from that abundance, from that, not to try and make me, oh, do something in return, but because she loves doing this, because it blesses my life. And I am able to see that she's not doing this so that I'll buy her a purse or take her to dinner or, you know, whatever. I'll see that, you know. And the same is true with her. We learned this at the beginning. We were married, as knew that was John, we were a month, two months, whatever, married. I mean, we're just freshly married. I still remember this. I've shared this again with the church. It's just something I've been open about. But I turned to my beautiful little girl, my wife, and I said to her, Mary, I said, you're so beautiful. You know, you're beautiful. I love you. She looks at me and she goes, what do you want? You know, one of those women to a husband look like what do you want? And I looked at her and I said, Marie, I can sleep with you anytime I want. I said, we're married. I said, I'm not giving you some kind of a play. I'm not trying to seduce you. I said, I want anything except you. I said, that's what I want. So she and I together, again, we were young. We were young at that time. We already knew. I already knew. No, I've already married to you. I've got you available to me as a wife. And I also know that you love me. And so it's all okay before God. So no, I don't have to say you're beautiful. I don't. I don't have to. And I don't. I just love you because I love you. See, so we put away that bargaining thing a long time ago. We never really had that. That's not one of the things that she ever needed to worry about with me. And I don't think that way. See, that's not how I think. So that was clear when we first got married. And that's important because my question, the other question would be, when a husband lays down his life for his wife, and she doesn't appreciate how, doesn't appreciate that, how is he to respond to that? Well, why is he laying his life down for her, right? Exactly. I mean, isn't that part of laying your life down, even if she doesn't respond? I mean, again, that's manipulation. You're really not laying your life down if you're expecting her to do something. Something in return, right? You're manipulating. And you know, pastors sometimes, and guys are going to probably get upset with this, but in that sense, sometimes men can be the biggest babies about it. And they can be, well, you know, I'm laying my life down. I guess it works both ways. But I've met with a lot of couples, and there's this mentality where, well, you know what? I'm laying down my life for her. So, you know, and I'm thinking, wow, you're laying your life. Shouldn't you be doing that anyways? I don't know what you're supposed to do. Any man, you know, again, you know, I don't want to make the men feel bad, and I don't want women hitting him with her elbow. I've seen that when I'm teaching. I've seen that when I'm teaching. I'll say something, and I'll see the woman turn and... I mean, it's so funny to see that, and it'll go all through the churches. And the guys, you know, moving, but everything like that. Okay, so part of being a man is simply growing up, you know, and if you have a conversation or relationship with your wife where you're open and you say, this is on my heart, you need to hear this, which is the way Marie and I are, I will tell her that. I will say, you need to sit down. We're going to have a talk because I want to share with you what's on my heart right now. And she knows that it's time to put down whatever it is she's doing. And well, I'm good. Okay, I'll be right here. And I have always done that with her. I am that guy that will say, we're going to talk. I'm not going to let this be something that gets between us. We're going to talk. And it isn't, I try so hard. You know, there have been times when I have felt that and there have been times when I have cried and I have said, you know, honey, be honest with you at this moment, I'm feeling kind of used. And I know that you're not using me. So I want to take responsibility for some foremost for even telling you that because I know you love me. But I need to tell you how I'm feeling right now, because feelings aren't always fact. And this is how I'm feeling. And I need to hear from you so you can help me to feel some security in this moment that I'm dealing with some stuff. And that's how I am with my wife to this day. If there's anything that I need to talk to her about, we will talk. And I'm not going to be that baby boy. She already had four kids. She doesn't need to talk. And sometimes I think in both cases that we expect our wives or our husband to be mind readers and not having that conversation. You know, it's so important to be open like that. And so the importance of sacrificial love in a marriage. You lay your life down, you love her every day. You wake up the next morning, you do it again. And then wake up the next morning after that and do it again. Unless she kills you in the middle of the night. Oh, thank you guys both for spending time and speaking about the importance of friendship in a marriage and for spending time too, let's talk marriage. Love it. Thank you guys. Thanks again for tuning in. Let's Talk Marriage is a ministry of Calvary Chapel, Chino Valley. If you've enjoyed this video, then please like and share it. We will see you again next week on another episode of Let's Talk Marriage.