 Hello and welcome to Town Meeting TV's coverage of Town Meeting Day 2023. My name's Bobby Lucia and I'll be your host for today's program, which is one in a series of forums that we'll be hosting an advance of Town Meeting Date this year. And in our forum series we invite candidates, municipal officials, and other folks in the area to unpack the items and races that you'll see up and down your ballot this year. As part of our coverage on the Burlington Ballot on Town Meeting Day, today we're focused on a ballot initiative to establish a community control board to oversee the Burlington Police Department. If passed by Burlington voters, and then by the Vermont legislature and the governor, this initiative would create a board of seven to nine Burlington residents chosen by local non-profit leaders, a city councilor, and the mayor, and the board would be charged with investigating incidents of excessive force and other misconduct and making disciplinary decisions including the dismissal of officers and or the police chief. And this question made it onto the ballot through a citizen petition, which garnered the necessary 2000 or so signatures required to reach the ballot. And as a city, charter change, as I mentioned, if it does pass, it also has to pass the Vermont legislature and be signed by the governor to take effect. And so to better understand this ballot initiative today, with us we have Milo Grant, who is a longtime Burlington resident and who currently serves on the Burlington Police Commission. So Milo, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you so much for having me. So Milo, we'll dive into the initiative shortly, but first, why don't you tell us just a bit about the Burlington Police Commission and what your role is on that body and what that group is charged with? Certainly. Thank you. So I do first want to say that I am here speaking as a citizen who serves on the special committee to review policing policies and currently serves on the police commission. I am not speaking on behalf of the police commission as a whole because the police commission as a whole has not made any statement on the ballot item. I'm just talking about what my experiences have been. With regards to the police commission itself, what we've been doing since I've been on the commission, which the last two and a half years, we've changed some things. In particular, something I think that most people can relate to is a re-examination of the complaints process and also a inviting in additional resources such as NACOL, the National Association for Law Enforcement Oversight. National Association Community Oversight of Law Enforcement, thank you, sorry. And getting advice from that organization and other resources to say what's the best thing that we can do for Burlingtonians who file complaints against our police department and what does that process look like? So when I first started, we didn't actually see the complaints. We were told about them. So we didn't really know what they were. So now we actually see the complaints. We can see the original written complaints. And then there was the whole process about, well, who confirms that a complaint's been received? What type of deliberation should there be? Who then confirms what information is relayed to the complainant? Things like that that weren't always happening before. So making those type of changes, I think that's one of the most relatable changes that the average Burlingtonian can relate to. We have with our meetings added educational components. We talk about things that affect the average Burlingtonian. We talk about things that affect police officers because the average Burlingtonian really doesn't understand the things that our officers have to deal with on a daily basis. So we had an excellent speaker on officer wellness. We had an excellent speaker that talked about how certain use of force incidents that have gone viral. What are the back stories? What caused this? Was there an officer on the road that shouldn't have been and because of certain reasons why he shouldn't have been? Not because they were a bad officer, but because they had already been through something traumatic and had to continue with their shift when maybe really they should have been given a break. So there's a lot of things that go on, but unfortunately there are also issues of a lack of equity in policing and that is something that unfortunately we have seen in our area as well. So talking about racial disparities, talking about the best way to address racial disparities, hopefully having a change in the way we address certain communities because despite the fact that we are in one of the white estates in the country, Burlington is very diverse. You can go into certain areas of Burlington and you could be walking around in Brooklyn and that's because we have a number of new Americans that live here. Our schools are going to change our community in just maybe the next 10 years. We're looking school-wide as of the fall of 2021, roughly 38 percent of the children are a part of the global majority. We have some schools that are well over 50 percent, some are in 40 and some are in the lower 30s. That's way more than a lot of people realize and these children are growing up, they're working in our community, so there's more interactions and as we can see with issues at sporting games and the like that their presence is not always welcome and that does spill over into other aspects of our society including policing. So we discuss that as well and we do look at use of force incidents and we do our best to say what can we do better, right? What can we do better? Because sometimes it's not about punishment, sometimes it's not about firing someone, sometimes it's about what we can do better, what training needs to be revisited. Training should not be considered a one and done, especially around de-escalation. You know, where all types of people work in different businesses where you have rules and standards and procedures you should follow and then if you don't how is that addressed, right? And it doesn't mean that someone has to be fired but it does mean sometimes that you have to take a look and say how do we prevent this from happening again, how do we have honest conversation about that and how do we know that that's what the leadership in the department is doing and that's sometimes where I feel we butt heads at least from my personal opinion. Who sits on the Burlington Police Commission and how is that body kind of composed? Certainly, so for any commissions generally you can go to the city's website and you can look to see what positions are open. Most of the commission seats are two and three years depending on the commission and you fill out an application for what commission you're interested in and you give a little bit of information about yourself and it's reviewed by a committee on the city council and then voted on by the whole city council and you can go and you can speak on your behalf to say this is why I have something to offer to this committee in this process. So what you have are private citizens who've stepped up to serve and we have different backgrounds. I work in a field called consumer directed benefits. I help people with managing health reimbursement accounts, health savings accounts, things like that. We have Stephanie Segrino who is a college professor and an internationally renowned economist. So she's a fantastic resource with regards to looking at data. We have a commissioner Comerford who has a background in social work. We had our former chairman who just had twins. Congratulations. So with his time commitment being drastically reduced, he unfortunately had to resign but he is an individual who worked in a downtown bar. He works in downtown bars so he gets to see these things right up front. You know myself as a citizen, I've also DJ around town and I've DJ number shows. I've gone to a number show so I see what's happening downtown as well and we have another commissioner who works with people who have autism and the like and so he has this life experience. So what's great about this commission is we have these variety of life experiences that we can bring to the table to represent a variety of people in our community and advocate for them. Right okay and so this is it's a group that is appointed based on applications that are submitted and then who actually approves those applications and puts and so that it's the City Council. So that sounds a little bit different from what's being proposed through this initiative. Maybe we can get into it a little bit. So this initiative aims to establish a community control of police board which is appointed by nonprofit organizations around Burlington who are involved in racial justice work and also involve the A City Councilor and the mayor but can you talk a little bit about just how this board would be different from the Burlington Police Commission that you sit on currently. So what's interesting is that the the board would be independent and one of the reasons that the makeup that's being indicated in the ballot item is to really take a step to ensure voices that have quite frankly sometimes been previously blocked from being able to have a position express concerns around policing in our area and policing equity amongst the various groups that they would be representing. So it's a way to say we need to ensure that these voices are being heard. Right okay and my understanding also is that you were originally opposed to this charter change. I was. And you've since come around to supporting it. I was. I have attended meetings participated in conversations because I wanted to know what was going on. I wanted to know what people were talking about on the commission itself. We just kind of held our heads down and we just went on with the work. We're like we are going to continue with the work because there was this back and forth about the original charter change discussions that happened in fall of 2020 2021. But we were just like we just we don't know where all that's going to land. So as a commission we're just going to keep doing the work. And I felt that the commission could be that body that changes in the commission. Additional tools additional resources like the commission we have our own lawyer now. It's huge. It's huge because the city attorney's office doesn't really represent the commission and doesn't represent the city of the people of Burlington represents the city of Burlington. You know the administrative part. But that's like a different thing from actually representing community members who might not have had a good interaction with an officer. So that was a concern. But we have that tool now and we've had a lot of education including having an understanding of the directives and the policies. So I was feeling that yeah we can do this and I was like OK I'm going to have this conversation. I'm going to listen to what everyone's concerns are. I share these concerns. But hey just so you know what the police commission's up to. You know there's certain things I can't talk about that happen in executive sessions. But I could talk about the things that were discussing publicly. I incur I did a lot of outreach for the commission because I felt it was important for people to have an understanding of what the commission was working on what the commission was doing. And I went to these meetings and I talked about it. I was like hey we got a lawyer now. People are like oh that's major that's big. That's one of the big things that people felt an oversight body needed and a body that would be looking at accountability needed. But it became increasingly clear to me that the police commission wasn't getting the support that it needed. And then in fact more recently we've had the mayor and the police chief actively attack the police commission in a way that I personally feel is not appropriate. Like they have the police chief said in an open meeting that one of the reasons we didn't have lateral transfers. A lateral transfer is an officer that maybe has worked in another city or another state wants to change. Do we have an opportunity to bring them here to Burlington. They don't have to go through the full academy because they've already been through academy. They just have to go through some initial training about the city of Burlington and policing in Burlington. So lateral transfer you can get on the road a lot faster than someone who's just out of the academy. But that it was the fault of the police commission that they did not have applications at the time from lateral transfers. This is really amazing to say that the additional salary the additional incentives were not enough to overcome the work of the commission. So you're saying that people don't want to be here because they don't want oversight and they don't want accountability. What is that really saying about the type of officers that we want to attract. It's very deeply concerning to me and then September 19th our co-chair was asked to present the annual report of the police commission and this is a public meeting city council meeting near the end of the meeting September 19th anyone can go and watch this. And the mayor just said that the commission was out of sync with what the people of Burlington wanted that the commission was interfering with public safety and he said a number of things that were false. Then he said he was going to write a written response to to correct the record which he never did we're in February 2023 and he never did that. To me it was just kind of like a shiny object. Oh here look now put your anger toward the police commission. And I just felt that was pretty astounding. We are private citizens we have stepped up to serve who's going to protect us from that. Right now there's the attitude keep your head down do the work. But I personally felt this was a little bit too much. I felt that it was really inappropriate for the administration and then the department head to attack the work of the commission then turn around and say the commission can be the oversight body because you don't like the ballot item. It's just ingenuous it's it's inconsistent and very worrisome to me which is why I changed my mind because you literally are pushing the commission aside and blaming the commission so you don't have that belief that the commission can do this work. And that's why my my personal opinion has has changed and why I support it because if anything it's it's going to push the conversation forward which has been allowed to lapse in a vacuum of leadership. So what do you expect might be might be different from a typical Burlington resident experience. If this initiative is passed and this board is established what do you expect that folks might might see as different about their Burlington experience. I would like to hope that an independent board would reduce some of the political flexing right like it's truly independent and it can't be affected by some of these some of these falsehoods and it could be certain things can never be fully public because you can't talk about certain disciplinary things but there could be a better faith in the process and maybe people can be informed on what is the result of an investigation. So for example we can look at a use of force incident we or a complaint we can discuss it we can review the policies and the procedures if we make a determination whatever our determination is the actual complaint doesn't get to hear about that at this time it's really quite remarkable. But that's where we're at right that is that is a hurdle we haven't gotten past. I would hope that the independent board would be able to do that because there's something to say that if you can't even communicate that that information how are you there for someone that's had an injustice done against them you know if that is what occurred you know sometimes complaints are not valid you know sometimes we get complaints that are not even related to Burlington Vermont right and they just be like oh you got to let them know they got a file for Burlington I or wherever someone just did a search for Burlington filed a complaint didn't realize they were in the wrong state. And that happens absolutely and then sometimes people file complaints and unfortunately they don't give us enough information we don't have enough information and if we don't have enough information to proceed we can't and that can be very difficult because sometimes people stay anonymous for a reason they're afraid of being targeted that's a real fear and we have to respect that but sometimes it does interfere with how much we can we can do for them. So you mentioned that the commission can make a determination based on an incident but where does so where does that determination go as it stands right now with the current power of the body of the commission. Well we can we can talk to the chief the chief makes the ultimate determination as it is now we can talk to the mayor if we feel strongly about something and the mayor does meet with the commission. What I what I don't like is that when they talk about the commission having access to information and body camp footage related to use of force and related to complaints and that we can we have these meetings with the mayor they kind of stop there. They're not always honest about the fact that sometimes we disagree. We disagree with a great deal of passion and we have a great deal of concern that things could have been handled differently especially in issues of de-escalation and especially issues around equity and policing. So they're very very hard conversations and then there's a lot of there's so much work that people don't see and that is you know when people go well you guys don't really seem to do anything you don't seem to really be able to change anything that breaks my heart. But I'm beholden to confidentiality rules and so I can only say that we are well and truly doing our best and we have made some changes and we're going to keep our heads down and keep pushing through and doing the work but hope that the city council comes around them the meeting that was this past Monday was very was it Monday was a 6th of March recommend people watch that meeting to discuss that resolution of resolution that predisposes that this valid item will fail. I don't think that's appropriate and then talks about how the city council after that will come up with ideas like you've had all this time to come up with ideas. So I thought that it was very it was and I spoke out at the public forum I was just like you're saying that people weren't there wasn't a community conversation about this and that's simply false it's false people have been talking about this for some time people were talking about this prior to 2020 right this isn't just about the summer 2020 we have outstanding cases use of force cases still against the city from incidents that happened in 2018. You know for someone whose whose life was forever changed and has a permanent brain injury and and we're still messing with that you know because we what's a fair amount right and of course the city can't talk about the negotiations or anything like that but I as a citizen can see something's wrong that has taken this long to and even just just the sessions his decisions very interesting reading very interesting but it's heavy right because it's a legal determination but the bottom line is aspects of this case can proceed because of the history of racial disparities and that's important for people to read because sessions is not a left-wing commie it's not an extreme progressive you know it because we've thrown around these these terms we've made everything political and all this talk about politics has taken away from talk about solutions and I I know our city councilors can do better I and and they're they're good people with good hearts but because some of this hasn't affected them or affected their families or their friends or people within their communities they don't understand what's happening and they don't fully understand the urgency so that's a concern as well and so you you also mentioned a minute ago that you know discipline isn't always gonna be the answer in response to certain complaints about the police department and I wonder what that means about the role of this board in and and the actions that this board might take what kind of actions do you envision the board could take that look less like traditional discipline and embody some other ways of responding to complaints about the police yeah so I don't know I think we can't say a exactly it's hard to know without specific talking about specific incidents so I can only say in general my hope is that the board would be more effective with accountability like right now there is literally a wall like because it an admission of the need for any type of improvement is seen in my opinion they find it to be either they feel weak they feel embarrassed they worry about liability you know even in the medical profession they have changed about how the way that they handle mistakes that are made you know and how they apologize to people because it's changed that whole issue of of lawsuits and accountability you know we have to start to look at things differently what we have now is not working for us it doesn't work you can keep slamming the door and you can just you know say to people that they don't have the proper experience you know people who are police understand policing and you can understand the difference between right and wrong and we when you think that we're at a point with Eric Gardner okay this can't keep happening you think we're at a point with Sandra Blant oh no this can't keep happening you think we're at a point with Omar Arbery and George Floyd oh no this can't keep happening because even though you had with Omar Arbery you had a former law enforcement officer and then you had cover-ups from the prosecution in that area and there's still some ramifications around that and why the case didn't initially proceed so you think you keep thinking oh it's gonna stop it's gonna stop people gonna understand and now we have Tyree Nichols right there has to be understanding that the status quo has to change and that it's not working and so one of the more controversial elements is that there not be representatives of law enforcement so I think what people need to understand is don't focus on what there isn't focus on what there is there's nothing that says that when you do an investigation you cannot as part of that investigation have witnesses with law enforcement experience and certainly have a lawyer you know we've we've had that experience in the police commission so I know it can work with an independent board but it sometimes you can't if you can't watch your own clothes then maybe somebody else got to come in and do it you know so um yeah that was a pretty simple analogy but it's the best I can come up with and it just says if this you know for me if this department has shown a good faith initiative toward improving accountability instead of attacking the commission that is trying to work on that and saying you're interfering with our public safety because officers are not going to want to come here because of oversight and accountability I'm like what do you want just a warm body I think what does that say how are you supporting our officers that are here what is a caliber officer you bringing in to work with them how are you going to support our new officers who are coming out right out of the academy how are you going to teach them if you haven't improved your process and if you haven't changed your view of things that are actually hurtful so it does affect all of the officers and and saying that you want accountability oversight does not say you don't care about the officers in fact you do care about the officers because sometimes when things get escalated you can end up putting yourself in danger right and we would never as a commission ask any officer to change a response if they need to protect themselves or protect another community member that's never what it's been about it's saying that when you had options because you weren't in danger and another community member wasn't in danger there could have been different choices that would make that better outcomes right so and and you touched a little bit on I know we only have a couple minutes left here but you touched a little bit on something that I've heard from folks in opposition to this ballot item this this initiative which is that the impact of this board might be present a challenge to recruitment and retention of officers right and I wonder if you can speak a little bit to that and and whether you expect that this board will yeah well who do we want to serve here what is that saying about who we want to is to serve and what we're willing to just turn our heads and ignore it's a deep conversation right and people are like to say it's funny because I'm like I'm here you wanted to have the hard conversation I'm right here and they're like oh no we were only kidding what does that say that officers won't come here because of accountability they got a very good contract and I'm not just talking about health benefits and salary which of course all workers are entitled to I would never question that but when we talk about how saving information about complaints and complaint history how long is that information saved it went from one year to two years whoop-de-doo still way below best practice so they and they're delighted with that contract so they have a lot of protections in that contract and I would have liked to have seen more for the community in that contract and the Berlin police officer's contract yeah yeah I would have any can any role in the development of that contract do you think I think you know when the CNA CNA was the the consultant that did the review of the police department came out with their recommendations part of the review of that was to say these are the items that are our direct would be directed the affected by the contract so they have to be part of the contract negotiation so all you can really do is say these are the things that need to be taken into consideration in order to promote community oversight and accountability as well as having a department that is doing best practice and not hanging on to the status quo because that's what's hurting us all it's hurting them it's hurting the community right okay well that about wraps it up here I think we're about out of time thank you thank you so much Milo for joining us and very much yeah thank you for tuning in to town meeting TVs ongoing coverage of local candidates and ballot items for this year's town meeting day you can find this forum and others at our website ch17.tv or on our town meeting TV YouTube channel and most importantly don't forget to vote on her before March 7th and keep in mind that your ballots may not be mailed you automatically this year so check in with your local clerk to request a ballot if needed and thanks so much for watching town meeting TV so long