 Hello and welcome everyone to Golden Threads first session's first event of No Summary. This is a live stream series of conversations with artists that don't fit in a box. No summary essentially means our identities and our work are too complicated to fit in one box. And I'm really delighted to begin this session with Nakama Samini. I will just take a moment to say for those who don't know Golden Threads is the first American theater company focused on the Middle East. We are based in San Francisco and we are now obviously sheltering in place and because of COVID-19 we are producing these digital programming which we actually hope to continue onward. So I'm delighted to welcome Nakama Samini, Iranian playwright to be our first guest for No Summary. Nakama John, how are you? Hi, hi Toran John. Hi everybody. I'm so happy that I'm here and I'm ready to discuss you about all the background of the play and everything and I'm so happy that you made this fantastic production of my play. I'm really proud of you and your group that you just tried to fight with Corona in a very very very unusual way because I remember that we had this plan to produce this play for the stage but because of the Corona we couldn't do that so I think you did a great job and I really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you and just to provide some background to our audience, Nakama is referring to the radio play of the language of wild berries which is a play of hers of one of the most recent plays that Golden Thread was originally planning to stage this fall and because we weren't able to do that we produced it as a radio play and we'll talk more about that but let's begin with you and your background Nakama John tell us a little bit about you know your childhood and how you began your theatre work. Sure Taranjan actually I was born in Iran I was born in Tehran I think it doesn't need to mention the year but it's easy to find it is actually 1973 and then I just completed all my education process in Iran I got my BA in drama and MA in cinema both from University of Tehran and then I got my PhD from another university again from I mean University in Tehran in mythology and drama. Mythology. Exactly mythology and drama so then it's about like yeah after after getting my PhD I seriously and professionally started to work in both theatre and cinema but my main focus was in theatre writing for theatre. Yeah I think it's interesting because so many people are not aware that there's actually professional theatre exists in Iran and how active it is and also how active women artists are in Iran. Can you tell us a little bit about that about how you create a theatre production in Tehran what is that process like? Okay so actually it's like all over the world and yeah I also have heard from many of my non-Iranian friends that they have no idea about how theatre goes on in Iran but I have to say that this is very powerful and very I mean serious media in Iran and just as an example just I want the audience know that every now I mean actually in pre-corona period every night you could find over 100 performances in a city like Tehran so it means that theatre is a very live art in a city like Tehran so I know that even in the city now I am in like Seattle you never can find 100 performances every night to choose in between. So the process of making theatre is just like all over the world first you need to find the text so I mean the first step is producing the text and then a director and producer with together find the text and try to make it produce for the stage and I think it's as I mean when I was trying to get familiar with what happened in United States for example when I started to work with you and your company I understood that there is no big difference in between the process of producing theatre or a play in Iran and in United States and all over the world. So as a playwright let's say you finish a play and then what do you do with it afterwards do you immediately publish it do you go to a director and say hey I want you to read this or do you go to theatre companies like what is that process like? Okay so I just explained my own experience but I'm sure that the other playwrights experience should be or may be different but mine is that I used to work with some some directors through years so there are like four or five directors that I can trust them and I used to work with them so they always ask me about a new play and I always I'm thinking about them and when I write a play I would I always think about okay this one is fit him or her so so for me as a playwright who has this like 20 years career behind now I know some directors who interested in my works and who I can trust them so it's not very difficult to find directors and sometimes some producers and some unfamiliar companies just call me to ask about my new work to make them produced so this is this is my experience but I know that this is not as easy for young playwrights that would be much more difficult for them to find their own director and the and let their play produce but anyway this is the process it takes years to it takes years actually to find your matching producers and companies and directors yeah to to build relationships with artistic collaborators that you trust who know your work and and are are eager to produce your work exactly exactly I know I'm one of them so I also wanted to ask a little bit more in detail I know that for example something that's different in Iran is that before a play can be produced or published it needs to go through an approval process can you talk about that for us a little bit okay yeah that is something I know that that is something very unusual for people who are working in theater in any country but Iran so yes that play should be read by some kinds of sensors and that they give you your own ideas and you have to you have to think about the ideas and maybe change some part of the play but the point is that Iran is a very complicated country and you never can follow anything in Iran just with one formula so yeah that I mean in a very very surface of this story there are some sensors and some writers and they give their own ideas and we need to change but it's not true I mean we get sensors ideas and we try to change it in the way that we want to make them happy and at the same time keep our main idea so I can say that in in in 20 years that I worked in theater what I remember is a kind of eternal fight in between sensors and writers so through these years now we I mean we it seems that we know how to avoid red lines and we grow up with censorship but now I think this this obstacle can be solved by on or creative ideas that is what happened in cinema in theater in painting and everything and it is why that we still can work it's probably worth explaining that in in Iran there is a ministry of culture correct and that there is an office of theater or dramatic arts and within that office of dramatic arts there is like a censorship committee or a review committee so these are government employees that essentially review the work and then issue as you said you know red line the text and and issue I guess they call it recommendations but but what's surprising I know when I yeah go ahead no no go on sorry I just thought that you are changing the point okay no no no I just wanted to say that knowing that one might expect a very sterile theater a theater that doesn't discuss social issues or political topics and that is actually not the case in Iran I can say that I when I saw theater in Tehran I was blown away by how I don't even want to say brave because that seems small but how directly artists tackled political and social issues and talked about topics from you know political reform or where is my vote to to social issues like addiction and homelessness and and I mean it was everywhere and I think that's partly maybe why I I also felt that the theater audience in Tehran at least was so invested in the performance right so once you you know you you watch a performance the the theater is packed there all kinds of different people in the theater diverse age groups from the look of it diverse income levels you know some who are more conservatively dressed and some who aren't so a very mixed audience and then after the performance it's like everybody goes to the cafes around the theaters and for hours discusses the content of the play and it just blew me away how invested everyone seemed in whatever the themes were that were discussed in the play do you want to I mean has that happened to you I know in your work you often deal with history you deal with relationships um and you know you deal with political issues in very interesting ways which we'll get to talk about but have you had that experience where audience members come and you know yeah ask the themes of the play with you with passion Toran you are very right it's unbelievable I mean audience theater audience in Iran uh is a phenomenon actually I I haven't seen something like that anywhere else actually because as you rightly mentioned you can find a diversity of audience young old educated non-educated any any any kind of people and when I say that there are or there used to be more than 100 performances on this stage I'm speaking about full full theaters I'm speaking about I mean kind of great reception for all this production so yeah that is very very interesting and I was I mean for years I was thinking about this phenomenon and the answer I found is that maybe because in Iran somehow theater I mean watching theater or attending in theater is kind of both entertainment and political slash cultural activity so I think it reminded me like um old Greek theater which was just like that both entertainment and cultural social even political activity just intervened together and people who attend in theater both feel like they are going to be entertained and at the same time to have a kind of political cultural activity and it's why that as you rightly mentioned once they they play finish and they just leave the theater they really want to continue what they watched in cafes or in their own home because they feel that they did something and they really want to talk about and I think one of the misconceptions also about Iranian society is the role of women right I understand and correct me if I'm wrong that majority of university graduates are women is that still the case 60 percent and so many so many women artists and business owners very active in society um very bossy in my experience um how has your experience as a woman been in in in being involved in theater production and also film production okay that's a very good question if I say that was easy and piece of cake and it was like the experience just like the experience of a male writer could have it's not true okay as a woman in a kind of traditional society like Iran that's not um easy to find your way and sometimes you need to struggle with so many obstacles from your family to till I mean to the government so there are many obstacles I actually in my own personal experience I was very lucky I grew up in a kind of Middle East educated family and my father was kind of very open-minded person so when I was like 16 and I told him that okay I want to be in theater and I want to do something in theater and at that the same at that time I was not sure that the whether I want to be an actress or writer or what but anyway so he told me that okay of course this is your life and it's your way and I'm proud of you okay do whatever you want so and I need to say that he was exceptional and in compared with other the other parents of my my other friends that they really wanted their daughters to be a doctor or an engineer so there was just two frames for us but anyway leg and generally your your idea about women in Iran is very true maybe being in cinema or theater for a woman is not easy but being a doctor or being somebody in society especially in big cities like Tehran is not difficult it is something that family push their daughter to have their own education and do something but I personally was so lucky my family really really encouraged me and then actually yes as a woman it was not easy to make people trust my mind you know they could accept me as as an actress much easier than as a writer that's interesting yeah because as an actress they need me your brain exactly your brain yeah exactly I mean of course I think that actors should be so wise and smart and they are they mostly are but the the point is that for a theater production you need actresses but you don't need a female writer so maybe sometime you prefer to have a male writer because you can trust to male brain more than female brain but I need I if I I try to summarize my answer with saying that okay my main struggle was to make them trust to a female brain as a playwright and as a script writer and I would venture to say that that's not that different from the US I think that that may be a global issue that women struggle with oh it's it's so tragic actually yeah it means that okay but to ranger I always say to my students that okay don't be discouraged because by remembering that is just about hundred years more or less that we started to be in society as writer as social activists and anything as a woman so I think we have a very long way in front okay so you sound hopeful I'm hopeful okay great I want to just mention that we the two of us we met in Iran while I was visiting there and I had the good fortune of reading some of your plays in Persian there and I knew that I wanted to translate them and hopefully direct them so last year when I was looking for an Iranian play to prove to include in our 2020 season you were one of the playwrights that I reached out to and we met at a cafe in Seattle while you were in Seattle and and we talked and I said oh I'm looking for a play that is about everyday life in Iran and then you just took out your play and handed it to me and and I read it I think that same day and called you and said yes this is this is the play it was it was almost magical and miraculous but it happened so easily so the play is called the language of wild berries and golden thread productions has produced it as a radio play our audience I invite you to go to our website you'll find the link to the podcast and if you haven't yet please listen to it it's a beautiful play it's about a couple yes it's about a couple who every year they have a ritual on their anniversary they take the same trip to the same town by the Caspian Sea and you tell us you tell us the story how do you okay I uh I want to tell this story in a way that doesn't give it away just exactly because okay that is my question can people um here to the radio play after this meeting this reception yeah okay okay so I think many will hopefully yeah great so I I want to tell the story in a way not to um spoil you know and not to ruin the dramatic point so as you rightly mentioned this is about a couple who are going to north of Iran to um completing their divorce process so they are on the way of separation yeah this is their 10th anniversary and they're exactly preparing to get a divorce exactly that's true and somebody is actually tracing them is that the right word tracing or chasing or following them yeah and he is so suspicious and if at the beginning it seems that he is going to kill them for some reasons for some political reasons or something like that but um what I mean when play goes further and further um something more unusual and mysterious reveals to the story so and at the end um there is a very very there is a kind of shock I think for the audience I I really like the end of the ending of this play it's a twist actually the main twist happens in the end of the play so I think this is the story this is the main line of the story in the way that people I mean I really tried not to spoil the story yes the audience you did a good job um what was it like to hear the play in English oh very interesting very complicating feeling you know uh as you know my play been translated to different languages like Spanish French German and um recently Italian and uh I have heard some of the play readings in different languages of my own play and I didn't have any feeling because I couldn't understand response exactly yeah I just was happy that my my child stepped in different culture yes it was just like that and I didn't have any emotional feeling about what happened because I couldn't understand this but at this time especially when I uh listened to the play you directed I felt I had so many complicated feelings and I was so emotional first of all I felt that no the play has two writers me and secondly you and I really can I need to appreciate your great job for translating this play I I know that how you were sensitive about each word and I know that because you were talking with me for any any any words and any translations and what you chose for any word but what I felt firstly was how um the play now has two mothers not just one and you know it was something very close to me and at the same time very far so it was very interesting complicated great fabulous feeling thank you you're very generous thank you I can I can say that the process of translating this play was first of all a pleasure because it's so well written but obviously as you begin the translation process you you have to make choices and and uh this is such a layered uh play and there are so many hidden meanings so I wanted to I wanted to do justice to the many layers of the play and I think that's where the challenges were and some of the choices had to be made and I'm glad to hear that you don't feel like um any significant meaning was lost not at all no not at all no that's great yeah it's interesting to um I do think you know as someone who uh you kind of lives in both languages both in Persian and in English um it is it is a different story right it's the same story but in a way it lives differently depending on the language so that's an interesting that's an interesting experience I think to to hear it so now I can't wait to see a production in Persian it'll be fun so talk a little bit about the themes of the play I know language speaking of translation and the power of language I know language is a major theme in the play talk a little bit about uh and your own background obviously in mythology you kind you've kind of centered the myth of the tower of babel and the confusion of languages uh it it plays a central role in in the play and uh one character is working on his phd on ancient languages the other character teaches English in Tehran so talk a little bit about why language plays why did you why were you drawn to making it such a big part of this play um actually Toran as you said there are so many different layers in the play so um actually and for me as the writer of this play maybe it's not very easy to talk about all these layers and all these themes and I think that maybe audience can find even more ideas in the play that I ever talked about so but anyway when I was thinking about that play and when I was in the process of writing the play the first thing I was thinking was that how a generation um lose the language and the communication in in personal way and in political I mean situation both of them so then let me tell you that I tried I mean my main my main challenge in this play was to um show how personal personal problem or personal matters related to um political condition and mythological background so you know as as a person from Iran this is my own experience that how in a every single moment my personal issues are intertwined with political situation of my country and at the same time with the mythological background because as you know Iran has a very long long history and very I mean rich uh mythological source so it it seems that we are in between these two you know two points from from our back backside we are related to a mythological and historical background and in and I mean and from other side we are very related to a political situation of our country so in a country like Iran anything is political I have to understand this anything I mean drinking water is also political anything is political so in the play I tried to find a way to show how this couple and how their own very personal problem uh intertwined with their history and the politic of the country it's really interesting what you say because I think it really resonates with where the US is today right we are now experiencing uh our history right our history of slavery and the genocide of indigenous population of this country catching up with us and uh we are forced to face face it and and it is impacting our daily lives so these issues of social justice whether they are on a national level or a personal level are like you say intertwined particularly for uh the black population the latino population but also for all of us immigrants in the US we've become politicized our lives are now politicized right so our personal choices have political ramification and political meaning um which is you know what you're describing and I think what what happens in the in your play the language of wild berries um similarly the the issue of divorce the way you tackle it in the play right it's a very personal experience right but then but then you you give us this very very thoughtful profound political analysis of divorce and I think it it um it goes uh in parallel with language you know like how language yeah go ahead yeah talk about talk about divorce from a you know from a personal issue to to a political issue yeah actually um I I um I got this idea from my own life let's confess yeah because um okay let's say um when I wrote the first draft it was before I uh get my divorce I mean yeah so like five years ago when I wrote the or maybe six years ago when I wrote the first draft it was before my divorce and I didn't like the play at all I knew that something missing in the play something is not real I didn't have this experience so afterward after um tragically I got my divorce then I came back to the play and I try to rewrite it and I found lots of things in the play that I missed in the first draft and I got all of them from my own experience for example there there is a line in the play that you perfectly translated it so it's why that I wrote the the line because I don't want to ruin your translation by my own so it is something like you sleeping in a highway and memories drive over you the speed of 120 so that that is exactly why what I experienced after my divorce I really felt that all the memories are drawing over me in a very speedy way so yes so that is my personal life and at the same time I was experienced I was experiencing green movement in Iran which was a very I mean effective movement it didn't affect on government directly but it affected every single moment of our life afterward seriously yeah you mean you mean it impacted it changed exactly yeah that is true so actually I when I was when I was rewriting the play I tried to get ideas from these two different sources the one was very personal which was my divorce my own divorce and the other one was so a general political source which was green movement and what happened at that time in my country yeah it's there is a speech in the in the play and will that really opens that up and and in a way presents us with a thesis of how a large social or political movement impacts personal lives with that note I want to actually open up the conversation to our um actors I think we are joined by Abraham Makani who played the part of Davut in the language of wild berries and Sal Matos who played the part of Daniel hi welcome both of you um and uh Mona your do you want to join us Mona Castro who is um who is part of the production the original production as projection designer but she definitely stayed on and supported the process for the radio play so welcome to all of you um I want to open it up to your questions for Narmeh um sorry I turned off my phone my microphone I thought that okay it's finished with me it's not done it's not not yet actually let me Sal and Abe and Mona let me let's give Narmeh a quick break um let me ask you what was the experience of being a part of this uh radio play what was that experience for you in terms of uh being a part of this play you know playing the part of Iranians or uh being in that environment what was that like Abe you want to start yeah I mean it was uh I mean it was awesome you know I uh I really love the piece um I you know was lucky enough to you know know you from you know working in the Bay Area before at uh Marin Theater Company doing Nura with Dan Moe who was the other uh lead in this piece and I mean you know obviously I I definitely wanted to do it live you know that would have been amazing but the fact that we that you all were able to to you know create this scenario where we could do it from from anywhere in the country uh I mean they sent us mics and the headset and recorded it you know on zoom essentially and another platform and it was uh I mean it was awesome to to experience it in a different way you know where we really had to listen to each other you know only from our voices and not really see each other and feel each other but um yeah I mean the piece is like a dream like you know I don't know it's like a it felt like a dream but it really encompasses what I feel it is to be in a in a couple you know you you go through these ups and downs and it's really beautifully put together so yeah I enjoyed it very much thank you Sal yeah um the play is beautiful I remember when I first read it before auditioning and just imagining you know what it would be like um to sort of see it uh on stage and you know fingers crossed hopefully one day um we can make that happen and uh the thing that was interesting for me was um playing Daniel again not to try to avoid spoilers but Daniel kind of exists in this very the whole play is kind of in this going back and forth between memory and um um and and the and the present and Daniel kind of kind of breaks the rules and he kind of addresses the audience and he kind of exists in his own sort of reality sometimes and so that was kind of actually interesting to play remotely because there were times where um there is that distance between the characters even though on stage he's right there with them he's not seen or he's you know there's something sort of magical and theory about it um so that was kind of interesting playing from afar and trying to find those moments of connection um like Abe was mentioning and then uh being able to kind of relish in those moments of disconnection as Daniel it actually kind of benefited I think the character a little bit um in in this sense Mona how about you you're Iranian what was it to you yeah for me this uh I from the beginning when we started um talking to Tara and which seems like it was age ago right before pandemic and all of that and we were so excited to stage this piece I left Iran like about a couple decades ago but like the roads that this uh play takes place that it's just it brings up a lot of memories and also I love the context of this really winding roads and this notion of memory and the challenges that this couple is going through socially and also personally the play with public privates that they you know what what they do what they talk about together so it's just it it really resonated so much and I love Nana's work she definitely thinks also very visually I think and I was so excited about making this happen like bringing this staging this and and you know be able to just really share this beautiful piece with the American participants or outside Iran um but the pandemic happened you know we were trying to really make it happen and but I'm so glad the radio play went along it's really beautifully captures I think the emotions and the meaning so well I still remain helpful that we're gonna at some point or I'm just gonna do this once yeah things are back in normal but it was just an amazing experience just being part of the group and just talking to everyone um it's it's a wonderful wonderful uh script do you do you have any questions for Navma at all um I I feel like we since we had that longer conversation there and I I'm I'm wondering if Navra you think of this also as a film do you see this becoming like an actual like a screenplay at some point I had I had actually thought that as well when I was reading it that it would make a beautiful film as well as a play okay so the good news is that a friend of mine who is a filmmaker and who lives in California but now she's in a Syracuse University maybe you have heard about her Suda Memora Dion and she is working on this play to make it um script I mean we are working with together actually but at the beginning that is really interesting point that you mentioned I have heard I actually at that time I had heard a lot about road movies but not uh play I mean road uh road theater or road play so at that time I was thinking that how I can um just make a new way to show that we in in theater we also can have a kind of road journey to show how character react to this um I mean to this new situation out of their home my my my plays before writing this the language of wild berries and that happened mostly in in a in a private kind of home homey place but it was the first time I tried to write something outside of the home and you know as the the title of the play shows I was very under the inspiration of the movie by Ingemar Bergman called Wild Strawberries so yeah actually at the beginning I was thinking about cinema but in in a in an opposite way how I can how I can borrow something from cinema for the theater we always do the I mean do the opposite way borrowing from theater to cinema but now I thought that's so interesting yeah that's really interesting yeah it's just and and I think in the visual thinking of you know the way the environment's there in and the way you talk about that it's I just find that's really wonderful and I have to say Torrance did such a beautiful job translating this because I read the Farsi script first and then when I read the translation it was like really captured the context and sometimes our words mean differently in Farsi and what we were trying to say and you really captured it right I don't know how hard that must have been I'm sure it's not easy it was a pleasure I have to say translation is such a it's it's like you go on a journey you you know I mean I'm a playwright also so if I really respect the word of the playwright I really understand that nothing is accidental in a play and so I I try to dig deeper and deeper to understand tone repetition you know all of these choices because they're not you know they're not accidental something that you mentioned that reminded me that I've read two of your other plays and you're right that they both happen in a house the characters do not leave and and it's interesting just to look at your own work and it's is it does it feel like with the language of wild berries you've left home because now you're like on the road right yeah maybe it's why because I wrote the play in Seattle and at that time I didn't feel Seattle acts as my home you know so that was the first time I wrote I completed a play outside of Iran and outside of my own home but that is true my very recent play I'm rewriting this play is again it is not happening at home it's outside of the home and it's somewhere very mysterious I'm not going to talk about that but that is true I you know for me home is home is part of our identity and I wanted to put this couple out of their regular identity so that is what I'm trying to do with putting them out of their own and you know your how do you call it immune zone or safe zone exactly yeah I really wanted to put them out of their own safe zone to see how they react and how their behavior change it's interesting because I think there is we do behave differently inside the house as opposed to outside right that's that is a thing and and I just as an observer I find it interesting that while you were mainly living in Iran your place took place inside the house and now that you've become more of an immigrant exactly they're happening outside the house yeah yeah yeah that's true I mean when I write an article analyzing your career I'm gonna I'm gonna talk about that's great that's so dead on please do please do yeah I would love to read that yeah yeah actually I am a amateur immigrant I'm the amateur immigrant I have to say it's just about one year and a half I really decided to come out from the country but I need to say that for us as the people who immigrate from our own root and our own country home is a very big issue I think home is a I mean we all we always have this question that where is our home where is our home and so even when you write a play outside of the home still you are thinking about home yes yes yes I think it's interesting because when I'm yeah it's like belonging home and belonging these are these are the constant topics that we tackle as as immigrants one of our audience members has asked a question about dramaturgy I know that for the radio play we did some dramaturgy and Mona you supported this process also do you want to talk a little bit about your presentation yeah I mean there there are so many contextual aspects to the play that we were trying to and also like if your audience is I think Iranian perhaps they would have certain understandings of you know the location even that this happens or would this road to the north of Iran mean or how does that work what the green movements like that's such a signifier for the newer generations especially back in Iran so like how do you translate that or how do you give that context and you know I I'm a visual person so I just try to create this a bundle of giving context visually then how does it living in Tehran even mean because a lot of our understanding especially outside like from the west is the news media and how we think of certain countries in a particular way so we we hope that like I guess that those images or that kind of dramatic dramaturgy called visual dramaturgy just helps giving those type of context a little bit more connection with what is happening really in the play and what is this couple talking about really and one of the things that I think is interesting in terms of producing or directing and you know a radio play or working only with audio right like the only source of communication is audio so it's an interesting challenge to how much can you convey with audio and you know we had a brilliant sound designer James Ard who introduced so many layers of sound and really helped build the the various moments and the various environments but even in terms of working with actors you know how it was a challenge for me and I'm curious Abe and Sam how you felt but there were times that I felt like I was pushing you to exaggerate right because I felt like otherwise you wouldn't the moment wouldn't come across how how did it feel for you I mean I gotta say those those moments were difficult for sure because you know you you have the vision as the director but for us over here and we kind of have an idea you know since we're not able to really be there in the room with each other it's kind of hard to to really see the moment the way you know that it's gonna like after after hearing it you kind of you kind of realize wow I didn't even know that moment was going to be like that quick or that that sound was going to affect this moment in a way that you know we didn't when we were you know recording it um so yeah it's just I mean I trusted you though I knew that it was gonna you know be something beautiful but in the moment you can't really see it because you know we didn't have as much time to really delve into the work like we would if we were in the rehearsal process for a play um so it's much more like a film in that way where sometimes you you get a director that's able to kind of give you you know the leeway to really delve into the role and sometimes you just show up and are expected to create you know an Oscar award winning moment so um so it was difficult but you know that's that's the beautiful challenge of of these times and and you know this art form so I enjoyed it either way yeah how about you Sal yeah um it was uh it was definitely challenging in the sense that same I like to get in the room I like to you know feel the vibe of the energy and the stage and you know what you're wearing how you're I'm a very like movement I like to move around and so which I'm sure you guys saw when we were recording sometimes my hands would just be like going all over the place while I was talking um and then just remembering like those things that I would sometimes use to convey emotion uh emotion whether it's my eyes whether it's my hands those aren't going to be on the other side of what the audience in this version I'm going to see or hear um and so it was actually really interesting listening to listening to the play yesterday um and I think the emotions came through but I do think there were those times where you were like just take it like be really really happy just like be as happy as possible when you deliver this monologue and I you know when I felt like I was going like over the top with like over inflecting but then when I hear it I'm like oh no it actually in terms of just the audio it got they got us where we needed to go but of course in the moment I felt like I feel like a clown you know like laughing and like doing too much and but I think it ended up working and yeah I have to second the shout out to James the some of the audio things especially for uh Don Yall's uh yeah I have a bunch of monologues and there are these kind of mysterious musical scores and sound effects that were coming in and out and it really like transported the piece in a way that that I like I was I was surprised by like I was thinking I'm gonna hear the same thing that I've been hearing for every day that we recorded and it I even for my own parts I felt like I was transported so it was really cool to see how those things can can kind of like add to the magic yeah we should we should mention that the original music is composed by Mohamed Ta'alani uh who's one of our local uh musicians and composers here in the Bay Area and a golden thread resident artist so we're very proud uh of his work it's really beautiful work yeah and it's uh it's based on an idea that you gave remember you we talked about music and you said what if we take uh the traditional wedding song of Bada Bada Mubarak Bada and create these other variations do you want to talk about that a little bit? Yeah actually I was when I first uh listened to the radio play I was so surprised uh how he used this theme and this motif as the main main idea of the music and I really love this especially you know at the beginning we hear something based on this theme and at the ending you can hear the whole song in the background so I really like the this way I think there's kind of okay my my piano teacher years ago told me that actually this music is very very sad one it's for celebration of marriage but if you try to sing it slowly you feel that's how you feel that how sad it is listen la la la la la la la la la la you see how sad is this so bluesy exactly so how it can be the song of a the song of the celebration of marriage so it's why that I gave you this idea and I think you and he as the musician used this much better than what I told it's it's all his yeah I I just gave him that idea and he said oh interesting and then two weeks later you know he gave us this amazing compositions and we actually just used the fraction of what he has composed so I'm hoping that he will you know one day issue an album just on variations of what I thought that would be really interesting um now what is um because you've worked both in cinema and theater uh in Iran what is the how is it different are you as involved in the production of cinema um or do you stay away and can you can I can I can I ask you to ask the question again because there was something happened in my internet yeah um just curious about the difference between uh working on a cinema production and theater um and how involved you are uh I'm assuming with a theater production you stay pretty involved is that correct that's correct that's correct actually there is a huge difference um as a playwright I feel um very powerful in the process of the production you know I feel exactly in a theater play exactly but in cinema I feel that I'm the second person not the first person you know so yeah because you know you never are as involved as practitioners as a playwright and when you are working in cinema you know they I mean I always give my screen to the to the people who are working on that uh movie or series and then um of the world like a year later I can see the result so actually I'm not I literally I am not involved with the process of uh filming my script but uh in in in in the in the process of producing a play I'm always one of the uh first references so um actually that is much more joyful sometimes it's much more joyful which one writing for a theater of course because you know this is a this is I feel more more as a writer than when I write for cinema or for series I feel more I I more identify myself as a writer when I write for theater rather than cinema or series but actually I mean that is completely different file I also love to write for them and sometimes I really need I actually economically I very depend on that you see and I really I sometimes I really try to uh inspire myself by my own experiences in theater to write for cinema and series so and theater always been the main source of my inspiration so okay that is that is the answer we should we should mention that you are the writer of one of the most popular tv series in Iran Shahzad will you tell us a little bit about that tv series yeah actually that was super popular um both for Iranians who live in Iran and people who Iranians who doesn't live in Iran and who live in United States for example so I started to write that series like um maybe five six years ago and actually Shahzad changed my life because yeah yeah because before writing Shahzad I was mostly um actually known as a playwright and not a scriptwriter and then after a while I suddenly uh was known as a series writer and I got super famous and it was a very unusual experience for me I mean I let let tell you something funny about my experience in Iran when I was in Iran before writing the Shahzad I just like other people uh need to stay behind any line line for getting visa in embassy or anything I mean some other other lines but after writing Shahzad I had this experience that I was known so people came to me to say oh you are the writer of Shahzad please don't stay in the line you can come and you can skip the line so it was yeah yeah but it was I mean yeah writing actually writing Shahzad was a great experience for me to know how we can talk to a majority of people what I think and not easy to do with theater so theater is kind of the source of art the source of experience and for me writing a series beside the you know economical issues is a way to talk with so many people at the same time yeah and I think it was yeah exactly talk to masses and it was so precious for me I have a question oh go ahead sorry for for Nakmeju um with this this piece you know I guess in my view of of the Iranian like censor you know that they have in Iran um how did you kind of I don't want to say get away I feel like there's a fine line maybe with the work I don't want without getting too much away um but you know certain political aspects of it and maybe you know the things that go on in a relationship you know are touched upon in this piece and in my mindset as an Iranian-American you know you have this idea that the Iranian you know government doesn't want to portray themselves in that way or even touch upon you know things that are talked about in in this piece so how did you how did you manage that um I'm not sure that I could understand your question can I ask you to explain a little bit more about that let me explain that it's it's the same question we talked about before that there are themes in the play that are that seem overtly political or even the intimate relationship of a couple that are in the play that one would not expect would be allowed in in Iran so how did you manage manage it okay so um first let me give you a general answer and that I forget to uh say when I was when they were talking about censorship actually um there are two important points about censorship in theater in Iran first one is that uh censor I mean it is different from censor to censor how to censor a text does it make sense you know it really I mean there is no law there is no law you never have one red line that you know that red lines are so floating they're very subjective very subjective exactly it's it that's very true that's very true so I mean um it has um some um it's good somehow because you can do whatever you want and then tell that okay I didn't know that it is something I didn't uh I I wasn't allowed to write for example but um the downside is that okay you never know where you are uh behind the red line or the other side of the red line so but anyway so censors are different that is the first point and the other point is that okay the censorship um how can I say the censorship apply the censorship applies for cinema and for tv series it is very different from what happened in theater in theater it's much lighter I have to say they're much more lenient yeah exactly it's it's it's it's uncomparable you you can't compare the censorship in for example tv and what happened in theater so for us as playwrights it's much easier to write what we think and what we uh want to express but in the in this single play uh the language of wife berries I knew that I will have some challenges with censorship because I was writing about um something like green movement and those political situation of Iran but fortunately I didn't uh face any any serious censor in Iran I I hope not after this conversation you know I need to be a little bit careful and I need to make a good choice of my words not to be in danger after this conversation but it's joking but you know because you know most of the censors got this play as a family play you know and I think they kindly tried to skip those political layers of the play so I could I could publish the play and I could make the play staged for over one month and just some besides some some lines I didn't change anything when I was working on the play and I think partly it was because when I was writing the play I knew that how I can avoid the red lines not to be in danger I remember one of the playwrights told me a story about censorship that uh the censors had an issue with a particular play with a particular word that he used in his play I don't know let's say elevator as an example and they asked him to change that word and so he changed it to to a number to like number four so wherever the word elevator showed up in the play he changed it to the number four and then it was published that way so like there's no logic or attempt at meaning or anything like that it's a little arbitrary is my understanding the Toranjan the funny thing is that I know that that playwright so and I know the trick he applied in his plays but the interesting thing is that if I remember correctly after years number four was in the list of censorship they caught on nobody can use the number four no five is okay uh three is okay but no four four four and half is Abe I have a question for you um can you tell us a little bit about your theater career as an Iranian-American how has it been are you often cast as like as a you know Middle Eastern part or is that rare or how is it um no I'm definitely cast as as Middle Eastern you know I think I not Latino I so I'm yeah as you as you know I am a half Latino half Persian mm-hmm and I'm fluent in Spanish speak very little farsi father never really taught me not magic will change that don't yeah yeah um but yeah I mean you know the industry for better or worse how it has been has has seen me as Middle Eastern and so the plays that I've done and you know the film and tv stuff I've I've had stuff where I'm able to like you know play a piece that has nothing to do with that but generally I do play mostly Middle Eastern yeah and uh but I you know who else should tell those stories I mean I'm I'm happy to tell those stories you know especially one like this or or you know like the piece we did at Marin Theater Company I mean I think it was a beautiful story so and that's Nura that play is enough me if you come across it it's it'd be worth seeing Nura by Heather Raffer is a beautiful play um if you feel like there are parts that you auditioned for that you think you would be perfect for but never get cast yeah like it was 99% of the time um but you know that's that's the name of the game it's uh persistence and perseverance over those kind of moments yeah how about you Sal what what has your theater career been like yeah um it's actually interesting it's kind of uh a bit of an inversion I would say of aides in a little in a lot of ways um I get put in the ethnically ambiguous box where they're like we don't know what you are and so we kind of just cast you as whatever is is around um but that does tend to mean uh rarely is it uh leading uh parts um and uh it's usually more side characters which I'm happy to do I they're usually more fun but um it's funny I'm I'm personally in uh half Filipino and I primarily identify as Filipino and I have not once in my career I've been acting since I was 15 so in 15 years I've not once played a character that was explicitly written as a Filipino character um but I've played many roles so um it's kind of you know I think it just speaks to you know what are the stories being told out there um and uh you know what where are those opportunities I'm happy to take them I actually I remember you know in the process of casting this wanting to be you know um wanting to be conscious of the fact that this is such a culturally specific piece of work especially after you know getting to read the play before auditioning and I remember reaching out and saying you know is it appropriate for me to audition for this role and we kind of had that conversation and um about Daniel specifically given that he um kind of exists kind of in this weird uh he's in reality he's out of reality and so there's um and I I felt honored to be a part of it and I wanted to make sure that uh with anything that we did and anything that we were exploring to be as reading up as much as I could about you know all the material that was provided all the dramaturgy all the historical context so that you know I felt uh that I was at you know doing justice to the culturally specific things that we were that we were exploring yeah you both did a great job and I I I will just say that at Golden Thread we um let cultural competency be our guide in casting uh and not so much looks because I think the politics of casting in the United States uh you know it's funny because we don't think about theater in the U.S. as a as a political game but it is a political game right there's uh politics of casting politics of what gets produced what stories are told who gets to tell um and how how we're represented and um and we are uh yeah like I said you know for us it's really about cultural competency and an actor's ability to do justice to the character's experience uh is how we um how we make our selections not my house I love that word Torrance by the way cultural competency that term that term of like cultural uh confidence is so so great great lens to look at theater as you said what's produced who gets to be in it to tell yeah that's great yeah because I mean there are artists who are you know from the culture don't identify as that culture don't know anything about it so I don't really see the point of like casting them in a part that they don't connect with or do justice to you know so um Navma how is casting in in Iran is it difficult or do you have an abundance of talented actors of all kind um actually there are many many talented actors because there are actually many private classes along with uh theater faculties in Iran uh and you can find many educated um actors and actresses come from these um private institutes or universities and faculties schools so there are many many of them and mostly are young sometimes it's not easy to choose in between them because there are many and most of them are so talented and as playwright do you get involved in casting do you have a say or is it the director mainly uh actually I can give them my suggestion and um that I mean directors always try to listen to me uh sometimes I say that okay I wrote this character specifically for this actor but sometimes and they and some of course they really try to find hair hair or him and bring hair to the product but um I mean the other times I just say that okay that is the features of the actor or actress I was thinking when I was writing the play oh the look so yeah yeah yeah so actually I I always are uh are asked to give some advices about the cast and that's very very interesting very very important I think one of the things I noticed in uh theater production in Tehran was that they rarely hold auditions they just go to the actors and invite them to join the production yeah that's yeah that's true yeah yeah that is very true but it's mostly for professionals you know professional actors never never attend in any audition they feel that they don't need this or they feel that it's not fair after years working to to to you know to be chosen okay so but but but it's not very true about um young actors who are not very um famous yeah and they are not they are not famous I mean being famous is more important than having experience it's it's unfair of course but um that is the reality yeah but I mean nowadays uh it's more you can find more audition for oh yeah yeah yeah it's it's more but still not for professionals and not for um kind of superstar actors yes yeah I made that mistake a couple of times I asked uh you know a couple of actors who uh I don't know they thought they were above auditioning I asked them to attend our audition and they were very offended exactly I can't imagine that is true yeah Toran John if we have time I would like have a just very quick question yes you do of course why did you choose this this text it's a very general question I mean it's it's what I what I said at our you know at that coffee shop in Seattle I was so 2020 is an election year this administration had been increasingly attacking Iran and vilifying Iran and I was afraid that Iran was going to become a ploy on the road to the election and I wanted as our fall production to stage an Iranian clay that featured everyday contemporary accessible lovable Iranian characters and you know and your play was it it was uh it was about an issue divorce that everyone can can relate to um and two contemporary you know a contemporary couple that is just dealing with marriage challenges both of them are interesting and layered and complex neither is a terrorist or an oppressed silent woman and you know they're both professionals and they have ambitions and they have inner emotional lives and you know it may sound simple or minimal but it's a huge thing right because representation I mean oh my god every time Iran is mentioned in the news is in the context of you know bullying and and political violence and and you never I can't even remember the last time I heard about Iran in a positive way on on the media I don't know have you guys do you guys remember maybe uh what's his name's uh trip to Iran Anthony Bourdain's trip to Iran when was that in the 90s or I don't even know when that was but that's like late 2000s right yeah yeah like that was the last time that I think Iran was represented in any meaningful way and it's scary it's scary because people don't know anything about the country and the US is in a position to really force violence on Iran and and it's scary it's scary to me I remember part of also one of the sorry sorry Abe just like the US not that there there is this lack of understanding or familiarity with the actual context of the country but also the youth most of Iran is like young people and what they're thinking what their lives are how and what one thing I really appreciated about this group here is like this is just a regular couple with their all their issues that are happening and it happens to be the stories of Iran and you really connect with them because they it's about a relationship ultimately that you know goes through all of these so I think that was one of the unique aspects of this just introducing the youth of Iran and their problems and their issues sorry Abe go ahead yeah because I I just to pick you back on what you're saying is yeah I mean I really like how this piece kind of you know shows a everyday couple and that we did it without like accents for example you know which I'm glad is now becoming more prevalent in in theater and you know another medium um but yeah just just so an American audience can connect with them you know because it's very easy when you put on the news and you see that it's always doom and gloom and you know I mean I thought maybe we were gonna go to war especially when when Trump bombed you know and killed that general I was very scared you know um but that's that's a very easy way to dehumanize the the people of Iran right that they're you know that I don't you know they don't they don't deal with anything except war so maybe we should just go and start a war there you know so yeah or that the government is so violent and corrupt and whatever that people people would welcome US interference or invasion you know and it's whatever the problems are it's their problem let them you know solve it I mean from my perspective for those of us living in the US I feel like our lives have been so politicized and we are our representation of our communities has really been narrowed down to like victim villain representations so in that environment I think depicting everyday life is the most revolutionary act you know depicting everyday relationships human relationships is really the most revolutionary act so um that was my goal and my hope and I think we did it looks so Navajo we only have just a few minutes left in our conversation which has been so enjoyable anything you want to add or something we didn't ask you uh actually uh what I forget uh is to appreciate your great job all of you I love the way you and made my play alive in radio I can't say on stage so it was so fantastic I really enjoyed and I found something new in my play through your performances so thank you all of you thank you Toran John and I I mean I I love that that expression of you when you say that showing the very normal life is now is a normal life in the countries like Iran is very revolutionary act I love this idea I agree 100 percent and I also really like what Abe said that how we are we are being dehumanized and we need to do something against that to show how we are human being like other people all over the world we have theater we have a cinema we play music we are just normal people and I think the first step is stopping violence against any culture is to show that they are human being you know so that is I think the first step so I really appreciate your great job and I wish I mean I hope you can continue this way to show Iranian normal life with its own challenges and its own I mean features and the other thing I would like is that still I am fantasizing a day that you can play you can perform this play on the stage I agree with Sam that performing on the stage is something else anyway full of energy and full of movement so I love this radio play and waiting for having you on the stage thank you thank you I plus one on that yes um yeah and we want to thank you for your beautiful play and your amazing work we would love to see more and more of you and produce more and more of your plays including the language of wild berries on stage to wrap up I want to thank everybody that participated in our conversation I also want to thank Wendy and Chris who are working behind back behind I don't know a digital sphere and we want to thank how around for live streaming this conversation once again we are Golden Thread Productions we are the first American theater company focused on the Middle East next year we'll be celebrating our 25th anniversary we are bringing our digital content programming to everyone for free if you are able to please go to our website goldenthread.org and make a donation to our company thank you so much for joining us and join us in two weeks for another conversation this time with four playwrights of Arab heritage thank you so much and have a lovely day everybody thank you Nadma John thank you