 Crispy Honolulu Hawaii. This is Think Tech Hawaii April 25, 2022. And I am Howard Wigg Hawaii State Energy Office. Welcome to you all. And you are devoted audience know that Hawaii is leading the whole nation in the provision of solar panels, and we are way way out ahead in many ways in energy efficiency. But how about a third alternative to hopefully one day reversing the trend of global warming and reversing the study increase in CO2 carbon dioxide by gobbling that stuff up and not only that but making good use of it, treating it as another natural resource. That's what we're going to be talking about to Christie Gamble, the senior director of sustainability for carbon cure and she's going to tell you all about what carbon cure is. But let me say that, if again we make use of that CO2 what a concept, and it turns out that the Hawaii Masonry Institute which represents all three concrete making companies on a Wahoo, they are fully on board with this program, and they are the movers and shakers and Christie works with all three of them. So, Christie Gamble, and where are you in Canada, Christie at the moment. Well, hi Howard, I am in Regina Saskatchewan so in the prairies where, unlike in Hawaii we still have snow on the ground. Well we're still pretty cool here, it's noon and it's just 81 and it'll get maybe up to 84 today, and then start dipping back down into the very low 70s. So welcome, welcome Christie, thank you for joining us all the way from Canada, and we, it's a nice sunny day out there, occasional drifting clouds trade winds, cooling us down. So on that cherry note, please tell us Christie what in the world is carbon cure, a little bit of background, and then what you do. Sure, well, carbon cure is a Canadian clean technology innovator who is on a mission to reduce the carbon footprint of concrete. And our mission as an organization is to reduce 500 million tons of annual carbon emissions by the year 2030. So that's equivalent to taking about 100 million cars off the road. And how we do that is through providing technologies to the concrete industry that allow concrete producers to actually utilize carbon dioxide that has been captured as a material in construction. So we're providing a solution that allows the usage of CO2 and the actual permanent capturing and getting rid of CO2. And so it's a really exciting innovation in the space of carbon utilization and it's ultimately a path to the global decarbonization of building materials and construction. And Christie, let me ask you, maybe you'll be able to answer this, of all the CO2 produced worldwide every year, what percentage is taken by the production of concrete? Well, the main ingredient in concrete is cement. So cement is the glue that holds concrete together. And cement production alone accounts for about 7% of the world's CO2 emissions. Yep. If the cement industry were a country, it would be the third largest country emitter behind China and the United States. Wow. Sounds significant and taking 100 million cars off the road. That's what's possible through the use of the carbon utilization technologies that carbon cure has developed and is in continuing to develop. Was carbon cure an accelerator type startup? Is that how it worked there? We were, yes. So we're past the phase now of being in a startup, but that is certainly the origins of our company. So carbon cure itself was founded in 2012. And it is a technology manufacturer for concrete producers. And we have been funded through various grants, venture funding, but also accelerator programs. And in fact, the main reason why we're coming to you today in Hawaii is because of the fact that we were part of the Elemental Accelerator program a couple of years ago. And that program really accelerated our adoption across Hawaii. And as a result, Hawaii is one of the most advanced states for usages of carbon dioxide captured concrete. And you, I think your operations are not confined to little old Hawaii. I think you've got just a few more operations worldwide. That is correct. So as of today, we have over 550 systems sold. So a system is out. We provide a technology to concrete producers. So any operating concrete plants can install our technology to then introduce captured CO2 into their concrete as an admixture, as a material in their concrete. Today, there are over 500 plants that are operating and providing concrete made with our technology in many states across the United States, Canada, and then every continent on the globe, except for Antarctica has at least one representative of carbon cure. So we're actually really starting to get a global reach, which is really exciting because a lot of that global growth really started for us in Hawaii. So Hawaii itself might not be international. It was the first step for us to make those international growth. Wow. Does a key more so know about this. She's the executive director. Oh, yes, of course. Yes. Absolutely. We have to inform her afterwards that star coming back back to a while who here. So, one of the countries that you are in I believe is China, you made inroads in China yet. China is actually not one of the countries currently on our operating map. So in particular, Singapore was one of the first international locations to really adopt the use of carbon care. Because I believe China is still the national the worldwide leader in the consumption of concrete because they do so gosh darn much construction there. Absolutely there's a hugely significant amount of construction happening in China, which means that's where the majority of concrete production is made and so of course China is part of our eventual path to decarbonizing the concrete industry will have to get we're going to achieve that goal of 500 million tons of CO2 emissions that will require full scale adoption across the globe. Wow. And any idea how many cars that will displace. So 500 million tons of CO2 is the equivalent to taking 100 million cars off the road. Okay. That is a heck of a lot of cars. That's a lot of cars yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, why don't you go in more and more into the whole process and how it how it works. Virtues of concrete ice or carbonized the concrete. Well, let's just talk about concrete for a minute so concrete I did mention earlier that concrete through the production of cement accounts about 7% of the world CO2 emissions. So it does have a significant carbon footprint attached to it. But that is because concrete is the most abundant material on the planet. It is the most abundant man made material on the planet second most abundant material period after water. And that is incredible. And it makes you want to think well why is concrete so abundant and that's because it's such a great product. So one of the things that I really want to highlight is that there are so many sustainable attributes to concrete. If you want to build a construction that is a truly sustainable construction, you need to build it to last. It's something that can withstand the elements, and that's really important in the context of climate change where, you know we do see mother nature throwing a lot more forces at our buildings and so making sure to build to last is a really important part of the sustainability conversation. So I think that there are a lot of ways of conversations as well and strategies to, you know, really reduce the carbon footprint of a building to have a sound infrastructure. And just overall enclosure. And just first of all want to highlight that concrete itself has an impact just because it's such a good material. And so what we need to do as an industry is to deploy more solutions to reduce the carbon impact of cement and concrete, so that we can continue within construction to use concrete for all of the good things that it provides, but with less of an impact on overall CO2 emissions. Now, talking about carbon cure and where we come in is carbon cures at the forefront of the CO2 utilization industry. We're really rethinking CO2. So what I mean by rethinking CO2 is that historically carbon dioxide CO2 has always just been a waste by product. You know it is the primary greenhouse gas that is hurting the ozone layer which is contributing to climate change. And one of the ways to minimize that impact is first and foremost to deploy as many solutions as possible to minimize the actual amount of emissions that are going up in the atmosphere. But we also need to find ways to utilize capture and then utilize that CO2 for something beneficial. And that's where we're at the forefront is conceptualizing CO2 is not just this waste by product, but is something that's actually useful. And as it turns out CO2 is a very useful material for concrete production. So what carbon cure does is we manufacture a technology that takes this captured carbon dioxide, and we inject it into the concrete as it's being mixed. And what happens is when CO2 is injected into concrete, a chemical reaction occurs right away with that CO2 converts to a mineral. So concrete just happens to have one of the unique properties of being able to convert CO2 into a mineral, a stone. So that means that concrete can actually get rid of CO2 forever because once it's being turned into stone, it's not going to go back to CO2 it's not going back into the atmosphere. So by introducing the CO2 into the concrete not only does it turn into a mineral we capture forever because we've chemically converted it to something else. But what's even more important is that this process will improve the concrete strength. So if you have stronger concrete that actually allows the concrete producers to use less of the material that gives it its strength which is cement. So cement also happens to be the most carbon intensive material in concrete. And so if you can use less cement, you're further reducing the carbon footprint of the concrete. So it's a win-win solution where we're able to utilize CO2 to then reduce further CO2 through avoiding the use of raw materials that have a high carbon impact. And what about transportation costs? Is that figuring it all? Absolutely. And I assume by cost you're referring to the CO2 cost of the transportation? Yeah, no that's absolutely. So by capturing CO2, purifying it, transporting it, that of course generates more CO2 through that whole process. So this is really important from a life cycle accounting to accurately measure and then report the actual CO2 footprint. So we do that through our process. We understand the life cycle impact. We acknowledge that there are costs involved. The benefits, the amount of CO2 that is captured and reduced far outweigh the costs. So any types of carbon accounts accounting that we report are net benefits that have accounted for those costs. And does, do any of the certification, the green certification organizations recognize this? Yes, that's a bit of a, not directly simply because green certification, so programs like LEED for example. LEED does not, you know, certify products. What LEED does is it has created a platform and a process through which designers can construct to more sustainable standards. So the use of carbon care helps designers, building owners to achieve those standards because it lowers the carbon footprint of the building, which is one of the objectives by LEED. So other building, green building programs are usually pretty similar. Most organizations stray away from trying to put a stamp of approval on one product or another, but rather just set a path for decarbonization that our product is one solution to help achieve that. Very good because we have already quite a few LEED certified buildings in Hawaii and it sounds like if they include carbonized concrete, they may be able to elevate their LEED status a bit. Yeah, yeah. And do you have any applications in Hawaii yet? We do. So we are very proud to work with three ready mix producers on the island of Oahu. So the first producer to adopt carbon cure was island ready mix. So I'd like to give a shout out to Shorty Koon if he is watching today. He is retired from island ready mix, but he was the one of the initial people to really take hold of carbon cure and run with it. And of course say hello to the rest of the island ready mix team for joining today. So we work with island ready mix, we work with HCND and we work with Hawaiian cement. And so all three producers are partners of carbon cure who have been installed the technology and are using it. And this has resulted in quite a few different kinds of construction projects. So one of the first demonstration projects was championed by the Hawaii Department of Transportation. So Ed Sniffin who runs the Hawaiian Department of Transportation is one of the champions for low carbon in Hawaii. And so because of that we did a demonstration on the Kapolei interchange just outside of Honolulu, sort of in the city limits. And it was one of the first uses of infrastructure, like highway infrastructure utilizing carbon cure across North America across our footprint. So that was really great because it accelerated the use of carbon cure by other departments of transportation in other states across the United States. And there's just a few states that are slightly bigger than us so yes, using just a little more concrete than a little old Hawaii. Well and generally speaking government organizations government entities like departments of transportation are, you know, typically slow moving to adopt new innovation. And it's great to work with a very energetic and innovative Department of Transportation to go through the proper types of validation process there's a lot of work to validate and verify the use of carbon cure concrete on Hawaii DOT projects. But we were able to do that at, you know, a pace that wasn't typical for government organizations and as a result of it had a demonstration project that has now led to further use of carbon cure on Hawaii DOT projects and you know it's really important because from the DOT's perspective, they're very aware that there's a lot of construction of highways that they're going to have to manage over the next 20 years because some of the highways will be lost to rising sea levels. So it's, you know, it's really hits home. When you realize that that's rising sea levels is going to remove some of the current infrastructure that exists they have to rebuild. And so the philosophy of the Hawaiian Department of Transportation is that we're going to have to rebuild let's make sure we're not contributing to the problem even further by reducing our carbon footprint of this new infrastructure as much as possible. Speaking of which we, there are several beat a lot of beachfront homes, including here on a wall and on the North Shore which gets the heaviest wave impact. Just a couple of months ago, the picture on the front page of the newspaper was a home that was no longer horizontal. It was diagonal. Why was it diagonal, because it had slipped down onto the wave born beach. And then another headline, just the last week was about a beachfront homeowner who borrowed some heavy equipment, earth moving equipment, and shoveled down a whole lot of sand and rubble on to the eroded to try to save his property to keep his home from slipping into the sea. So this is a very, very relevant topic in Hawaii at the moment. Yeah. It's it's heartbreaking to hear about then of course, knowing that this is just the start of it. And what's also really challenging about it too is that, you know, this tends to hit impact individuals who are coming from, you know, impoverished situations and so there's certainly an element that becomes very heartbreaking and and it's it's very motivating to take urgent action to address this because it's the hardest hitting populations who are getting hit even harder in many cases. Pretty nicely. We have a question from the audience. Is there any relation between carbonized concrete and the 3D technology where you form objects via the 3D. I've seen some 3D concrete in action and it's very exciting and very cool. So no direct relationship. The, you know, that's an innovation in concrete that allows a new application of the material. Certainly it's an innovation that could have compatibility. You know, in theory, you could have 3D printed concrete that is made with carbon cure that doesn't exist today. But it's, it's really exciting because what it does demonstrate is just that there's so much potential for concrete as a material, you know, concrete is kind of this overlooked material it's something to really think about it's, you know, you're walking on it every day and it's the foundation of your home, you don't really pay much attention to it, but there's so much that you can do with concrete between sustainability innovations like carbon cure. And then I'll see a look at these novel types of technology innovations like 3D printing and what that allows for for creating more affordable homes and different kind of versatility of construction so it's all very exciting. Our questioner points out that fashioning the concrete via 3D is a lot less expensive than conventional methods. I haven't heard as we haven't like said we haven't worked with 3D concrete directly so I can't confirm that but I have heard that that's one of the benefits of it so I'm really excited to see that technology, you know, really expand. And since I'm a historian, I'll throw another question at you. What is the oldest existing use of concrete that is still in use today. I think it depends on how you define concrete because there are early Pawsilon type of materials so Pawsilon is kind of like an ancient kind of cement so I'm going to guess that that's probably the pantheon or something like that in Rome. But I actually think the first use of Portland cement concrete is in Nova Scotia believe it or not in Halifax on a place called George's Island, which is not too far from our headquarters. Well, what I was thinking of was in what's now Lebanon, I believe, which was in the time of Christ, if the place was occupied by Romans, and they built a harbor there, and the harbor was partially constructed from concrete, and it is in use to this day. That is very cool. I'm going to have to brush up on some early concrete histories because that's a really interesting story. Because we, we talk about sustainability can't get much more sustainable than that. Absolutely. And what about in terms of looking at the resilience resiliency is a big, big, big factor these days we talk about not just energy efficient buildings and so forth so forth we talk about resilient buildings, because we know, speaking just in Hawaii, we know the big one is coming. We're having beautiful, beautiful winter we're having a beautiful spring, but that ain't going to last forever. Any resiliency related factors in concrete and specifically carbonized concrete. I mean, first of all, the use of CO2 has a neutral impact on concrete durability so there are some properties that are somewhat improved by using CO2 to make more durable concrete which can improve its resiliency to the elements. But for the most part it's, it's neutral. And really when you talk about resiliency we have to look at concrete itself as the answer to that question. And to me, a picture speaks a thousand words sometimes of now I wish I had this visual up and ready to go there's a home in Alabama that had been devastated that the entire neighborhood was devastated by a hurricane, but this one home was built with concrete specifically for the purpose of being resilient to hurricanes and while all of the neighborhood has been flattened. This one home is still standing. So I think that those kinds of examples were seen some more of that you know it's not only hurricanes it could be tornadoes, the different types of really, you know, really terrible type of weather events to best prepare for them. The best way to do that is to build concrete homes. We've only got a couple minutes but another quick quiz. I can't remember when it was, but was maybe 7080 90 years ago there was a horrible horrible earthquake in Tokyo that flattened virtually all the buildings. Yeah, except one prominent building what was that. And who was it designed by. Well you're asking me these trick questions here Howard you're going to have to answer that one yourself. There's a Frank Lloyd Wright building of. I'm going to guess concrete. Only building left with the standing. Yeah. You cited an Alabama example there was a similar example in the pen handle of Florida, which is, which is nearby one building left concrete. Yeah. All of us are going to be undergoing, you know, really terrible weather conditions in the foreseeable future. Yeah. Yeah, well it does go to show that the best way to protect not only your homes but the people in the homes you know you think about the impact on safety and and the potential to save lives and how important that is. So, you know, the first answer to being resilient is to build with concrete, but then the second answer as well is to build with the lowest carbon concrete that you can procure, because you don't want to, you know you want to minimize the impact that your construction is having on overall emissions. And one final resiliency question which you can answer. How good is concrete burn in the event of a fire. It's, it's one of the most fire safe materials by far. So it's, you know, there, there are all sorts of different kinds of fire ratings and codes that could, you know address that more specifically depending on different kinds of applications but ultimately that's another concept of resiliency right there is that you know obviously if you're going to compare it to a material like wood. It's not going to burn nearly as fast. And just for your benefit and the benefit of our widespread audience and we, I'm getting indications we've got a pretty gosh darn good audience out there, thank you audience. We're in in the building cold world, we were resiliency did not occur until about five, six years ago. And now it's all over the place because we know that the big one is coming. And if it's not in the form of a hurricane can be in the form of a monster tide, do the rising sea levels. And we're already looking at showing up showing up existing buildings that are within a tsunami zone or a rise of monster tide so and certainly new construction. Yeah, it's got to be just strong as a fortress now. Yeah. You know I've been involved in construction sustainability for about a decade now and the biggest trends that I've seen really hit a lot of steam over the past decade have been resiliency and embodied carbon. Carbon is the carbon footprint of buildings before the lights are turned on for the first time. It's the carbon footprint that comes from the building materials themselves and from the construction. So that's what we're addressing is reducing body carbon of buildings, but certainly you know just this awareness of how urgent it is to build resiliently, and also to minimize and eventually eliminate that embodied carbon impacts that comes from those buildings. And what we're after is, we're going to be okay, or at least I'm going to be okay my generation, but our children grandchildren we got to watch out for them and decrease that carbon dioxide in the atmosphere and on that very very I must bid fond adieu. Thank you Christy Gamble. So much all coming all the way from Saskatchewan. And thank you to all of our listeners and admirers and viewers Howard Wigg, Think Tech Hawaii. See you next time. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn and donate to us at thinktechawaii.com. Mahalo.