 Hi everyone, welcome to this week's recovery room, holiday special, so happy Thanksgiving to our American friends, and yeah, there's no other place to start, holiday anxieties come up a lot on my community. Some people really find the holidays a hard struggling time and they want to talk about Is that something that you guys hear about and what? Is it something that's common? I know that it's common around the Christmas period, obviously over here, but we don't have the Thanksgiving celebrations over here, but yeah, is it something that you guys hear? All the time. Yeah, yeah, I think it's different from my anxiety disorder folks. There's one lot of stresses and from my eating disorder folks, there's a whole different lot of stresses around the holidays, so that's what I'm hearing. Yeah. And regarding the sort of things that you're hearing guys, what is it that you're hearing? Is it that people just don't want to be sat down at a table with the families or what? I'm sorry, I can't get at you first. No, so for me, it's a lot of how do I set boundaries? How do I manage family who are criticizing me or commenting for the eating disorder crowd? It's how do I actually eat this food that I've avoided for a whole 365 years? Because they can't control their food that they're being served on on these holidays. But then you've got the folks who are just afraid to leave their house for the first time, afraid to be exposed to COVID for the first time after a long time of quarantining. So it's unlimited. It's sort of unlimited how it can impact people. Yeah, I get that the criticism like, you know, their families and everybody wants to weigh in and give their two cents as to, you know, all you need to do is you just you just need a hobby, you just need a vacation. So, yeah, I'm actually talking about that today on my Instagram. It's it's a thing that's what I hear all the time. Love it that what unites it is expectations as well. All of those things are there is. There are expectations on me, whether it's challenging and eating disorder, leaving the house, all the things that Kim said. Will I meet the expectations of not only myself and the kind of societal fam familial expectations that are there, but also kind of the expectations of people around me and particularly in family systems as well. Family systems can be quite unforgiving and unfiltered. So, you know, there's lots of things that will set around a family table that aren't set around like a work table, but that way. And some people you might find that that's kind of abrasive in itself. There's a lot of pressure there. I still kind of get nervous when I go to family meetings because of grief, you know, and I deal with grief in my own way. And when you go to the you go to like a family meal and notice that your loved ones out there and it's different people dealing with grief in a different way. That gives me anxiety because it's like I like to just kind of be reserved, sentimental, talk about it when it's appropriate. But then when there's different people around the table doing their own thing, I mean, my family are miserable kids as well. They'll be like, oh, it's six years since we lost Dominic. And it's just like, oh, gosh, oh, we just lost Kim as well. Well, all right, Kim, right. It's been six years since we lost Dominic. Back from the dead. Yeah, so there's yeah, there's so many facets that can underpin your holiday anxiety. And the thing is, we talk about boundaries being great for people, putting boundaries in place and a lot of people have boundaries with their own families. And these boundaries become relaxed in the holiday period, what you say. You may be visiting people that they're family, but you might not get on with them. They might not be healthy for your mental health. And it can be, yeah, it can be really straining. And it can cause a lot of arguments over the holiday period. Yeah, yeah, anything, especially in people, it brings up emotions and you're upset and ready and frustrated by the position you're in. And then that emotion and that frustration, that anger then becomes anxiety. So it just becomes this escalating spiral and it's tough. People struggle. I used to. I was reminded when you said, like, I'd like to do like a podcast on this or something one day. But like, people are afraid of the overwhelming emotions because it then may trigger anxiety. And that includes positive emotions, too. Like, I know people that are like, oh, my God, I love I love Christmas. I love Hanukkah. I love insert religious holiday that applies to you. And it's really great. But actually, I found that when I get super excited, actually it triggers my anxiety, too. And there's that kind of holiday anxiety as well. Oh, my God, like, you know, when I wake up and see my presence under the tree, and that's really exciting, but also anxiety inducing. Yeah, I think, too, I think for a lot of people is when you're exposed around your family system, shame tends to show up a lot and shame is anxiety provoking, right? Like, it's it's an anxious response when we experience shame. No one wants to feel it. Shame is usually around like, will I get thrown out of this this family system? And so I think even putting your entire anxiety disorder to the side going into a family system can be anxiety provoking in and of itself of, like, who's going to shame me and how much shame am I going to feel? I'm looking forward to the next family meeting. I'm a family success, so I can't wait. They're definitely not going to be any shame. Right, you're lucky. I totally, yeah, I totally understand that. A lot of people who were messaging regarding this live did mention what Josh mentioned on the fact of losing loved ones and that being brought up at the table and why Josh mentioned before that people have different ways of dealing with grief and one person's way may be to speak openly about it because that reduces their anxiety. That helps them with their grieving process, but there might be other people at the table who are triggered by that occurring. So it's a fine balance, a balance, I reckon. Yeah. Grief is huge. Grief is a huge piece of the holidays because the routines and the rituals have changed because, let's say, someone is no longer there. And a lot of people who have anxiety like they like things to stay the same. Like, change can be very anxiety provoking for them. So there are so many levels to how grief can impact a family. Yeah, let's just close this stuff. Holiday anxiety, you've got the animosity. There's always arguments and tables. Maybe you don't like conflict, maybe you're struggling with PTSD and that conflict kind of, you know, then the expectation of being around the table with this conflict tension, there always isn't my family. Everyone plays ailment top trumps, you know, who's got it worse. You know, I've got to do this. Like, it's so, it's so depressing. I just said in the comments that someone's put, it's family members who don't believe anxiety is real. So they feel like they're being dismissed for their anxiety disorders. All right, that's that thing where they, you know, family members and friends, I mean, they know what anxiety is, but they don't know what an anxiety disorder is. So they come at you with those like, you know, there's a pill for that or, you know, we got a pill for that. That's always a very dismissive thing to say. Or you just, you really just need a good vacation. Like we're thinking of going to Hawaii, come with us. Like, if I go to Hawaii, don't you think we can go? That's how everybody gets anxious. What do you have to be anxious about? That's my favorite one, too. You have to be anxious about it. This state of anxiety itself, an inward spiral of rumination, constant threat triggering and then worrying about that meta-constant. Come on, man. I hate it. On top of intrusive thoughts and OCD about killing you, your children, my family, everything, so much to worry about. Yeah. Ask him then, won't they? They'll be like, OK, you just want me to stay. I'll be staying. I was like, I've got to leave early. Yeah, I was here post yesterday was like, hey, look, I'm just trying to not be terrified of my own effing heart for three minutes. Just give me a back up just a little bit. And then we'll get to the thankfulness in a few minutes, please. Like, it's tough. It's really hard. I can see one of the comments my grandma told me to just just get my head straight. So there is a generation thing with anxiety, isn't it, the psychoeducation behind anxiety and some of the generations not being as woke with what anxiety and anxiety disorders are. There's so many, there's so many different, there's so many. Grandma's not woke at all. Get woke, grandma. Oh, grandma, sorry, sorry. But it's a real thing and the generation gaps between people can really be cause a lot of arguments to do with mental health. I hear that so many times. Well, it's interesting you even talk about being woke because that can be a big reason for big fights, right? Is one person is more open and politically correct than the other. I think from what I saw yesterday on social media was a lot of clinicians talking about going home to their family of origin and having to listen to the stuff that we grew up listening to after being. That can be incredibly overwhelming. And it's like you have to keep checking yourself like because you think you might go into some kind of rage at any point because it's just such a gap between the child version of you and the mature version of you. I saw a funny meme of somebody posted Thanksgiving making business for therapists in 1621. Everybody's immersed in the nonsense that comes up political stuff and everything. It's so true. No, that is so true. There must be so many people like the bite in the tongue when they're there. And why you say that so many arguments occur because of the people who can't bite the tongue and the 12-year-old kid that they once saw the grown up with their own opinions, their own take on life. And yeah, what people just won't take mental health dismissal anymore. Yeah, it's good. It's really good. It is. Yeah. I mean, I'm just amazed that showing people from Drew's and Kim's generation are speaking so openly about anxiety and mental health. It's incredible to see. And I'll always thank both of your father. That's OK. Fine. But I hear the dig in there. I did. I didn't hear the dig. I missed the dig. What was the dig? It was nice to get our generation, you and me, Kim. We're speaking about it, you know, the older folks. The old. I didn't see. I think of myself as their generation. I'm in denial. I've been here for a long time. Total denial till Dean brings it up and then it's like. Guys, I do want to do the the media part. So anxiety in the media. Because it was fun last time. A lot of people said they enjoyed it. And also our last recovery room was the best performing by a country mile. So well done to have run on that. Well, even with all the booze and stuff. Even with all the echoes, I guess. The poop jokes. I think I think you officially broke the internet last week, Dean. Right. So the first title is anxiety and anger are linked, which explains why they can feel so similar. This is coming from a worldwide mental health expert and family therapist who says that you should treat anger and anxiety the same way. Anyone want to jump in on that? I just I'm not going to give the official answer on it, but I was I was also talking about this with someone today, not not in the therapy practice, but it was part of the support worker there. And in some cases, a lot of ERP, there's applies, applies a lot to excessive anger and stuff like that. And that's what they were telling me in their therapy that they would kind of expose themselves to the safe lead to the stimulus of anger and not respond to it in that way. I mean, Kim would have to give you a more complex answer. But like, I just thought it was really interesting that there was a bit of an overlap there. But also you've got a pinpoint. Is the anger actually kind of telling you something? Well, if you're constantly angry and maybe you're in a situation that isn't sustainable, then maybe you've actually got every right to be angry, continue and that source of anger isn't going anywhere as opposed to just being angry. It's not going to happen a long time ago that you haven't processed. Yeah, I love this. So the way I understand anger is that it's quite a it's just a generational and an in hit like an innate part of who we are. So the way I understand and the research I've done around anger is anger is our another threat response, just like anxiety is another threat response. So if a bear is approaching us, we, you know, we set off the fight, flight and freeze and we have anxiety. But sometimes when we're in danger, anticipated or projected, we get into a fight mode, which can be anger and we go into anger response. So I agree that it can be the same, right? I think that we can experience in the same. They may show up physiologically the same and they can have the same sort of goal, which is to keep ourselves alive. However, I will give you my personal opinion on this is I was raised to believe in some respect or other through the culture of Australia that like women don't get angry like we shouldn't. It's not ladylike. And so I have four years had every time I get angry, I get anxiety because I'm I know I'm not I'm like shouldn't be feeling this, you shouldn't be feeling this. And that I would create a lot of anxiety. So like if my husband did something that infuriated me, I would experience more anxiety than anger because I'm like, I'm not supposed to say anything. I had to work through that in therapy extensively. That's a big thing in Australian culture, you said? I wouldn't say it's an entire Australian culture, but it was in my in my sort of circle of, you know, we we don't express anger if we do, we do it in a very kind, compassionate way. We don't set boundaries very clearly. You know, we don't we don't share our emotions that much. And so, no, it was it was I had a lot of anxiety around expressing anger. Now I'm excellent expressing anger. That's like a thing. Did you say that was like kind of women don't express anger? And they're not allowed to. Interesting. Yeah, it's it's un-ladylike. It's dramatic. You're seeking attention. Wow, lots of that's all wrong. The anger of women. Angriest people in my family were the women. No doubt about that. That's shit flight. It was no, but it goes back to that old kind of patriarchal view of women who are vocal, hysterical. Genuinely, a medical term used frighteningly not long ago. Yeah. Even anxiety disorders or anything that wasn't emotional conservatism was hysteria. They just had hostels of people diagnosed with hysteria because and it's and even though men had that said, oh, men, it was us. Shell shock and trauma and things. It was almost like like a sympathy there. But for women, no, they're just hysterical. And particularly for women with like postpartum depression and shit like that. They've had it. They've had it difficult. Do you think that women get more likely to be dismissed with mental health than men? No, I think men get more dismissed than women. Me too. I think it's the other way. Yeah, because I think men are expected to not allow they're not supposed to be vulnerable. They're supposed to be mainly in how they handle things and level headed and rational. You know, particularly in Australia, I think in America, we're a little more open, but still, I think it's hard for men to raise their hand and say, I need help. Yeah, we've got the same in the UK. So carry on embedded into our very fabric of our culture. Yeah, that's what we're up against. That's going to go outside Buckingham Palace and have a meltdown and scream, not keep calm, not carry on. Attack the guards, urinate on the palace walls, go crazy. In the name of a... Mental health awareness. Yeah, all for our mental health, of course. In Australia, there's a common saying called she'll be right mate. I don't know if you know that saying, but she'll be right mate is the absolute blanket response. Was the blanket response in the 80s and the 90s for mental health struggles? She'll be right mate. Like, it's a, you know, get up, come on, you'll be right. Yeah, Dean, we had that one in Manchester. So, be right, be right, be right. Great. So yeah, I can see someone, but I think anxiety can lead to anger due to feelings of irritability. Drew, do you want to pick up on that one? Yeah, definitely. I mean, I know for me, I was definitely more prone to anger, which sucked because I didn't, you know why I didn't like where I was. I was frustrated. I was, you know, nothing was working out for me and I was working hard at this thing. And, you know, I wasn't happy with myself. So yeah, I was, I was irritable for sure. I had a short, I mean, I had a short fuse anyway for a lot of my life, but it was even shorter than. But the bad part about it is I would get triggered and like super angry. And then that's super angry. Like I would turn into the Hulk and then I would immediately crush into like panic. So the Hulk would get wiped, like knocked on his ass by panic because the anger would turn into fear. So it was just as really, it was a shitty place to be because it was just as weird swings and like, no, I don't want to get angry because then it's going to make me panic or morph into panic. So yeah, but as I got better in recovery, that my trigger level came down or my tolerance level went up. I wasn't so irritable all the time. It was a natural progression, but I totally, I was much angrier for sure. That's really interesting. I hear so many people saying that that frustrated with anxiety that it comes out in anger. Often I hear people saying that they'll just like spontaneously start crying because it's all this built up emotion of anxiety that they're dealing with so often and they just don't have a source to outlay that anxiety on so people will be angry. People will be upset, some people get depressed. Yeah, it's really interesting. The next question guys, you're going to love it because I've just sent it in the news and you will love this one. So the title is the unexpected spiritual practice that majorly eased my anxiety. So this is from a American therapist. Oh God. I promise I'm not picking on America. But the lady says that the word oracle means to answer or a decision. So she created an oracle deck, which is a tool used to give you clarity and alignment and reduce anxiety. You'll do it purposely, Dean. I know you are. We just talked about it. Yeah. This is literally the third one. If you want guys to help. When you saw that book in the news, you were like, this is going to be great. What do you guys think of that? We need an opinion. This is in there. This is the third headline down. If you Google it, what do you guys think of a spiritual journey with an oracle deck to reduce anxiety? Anyone? It works for you. You go for it. Well, I think I have a question. So by pulling a card that gives you the answer to your anxiety, is that what they're saying? Let me just read it one second. I designed the deck because I needed new tools to help myself and others overcome anxiety, doubt, and fear. How fitting that the universe delivered it to my doorstep upon returning home from the emergency room that she went to for anxiety disorder. So it works by using grounding tools to reduce anxiety. So the people are told to focus on the card instead of what's happening inside them. Okay. I have an opinion. I think that for people with fear, that may be, okay, so we've got to really distinguish. A lot of people have solutions for an anxiety disorder, but really they have a solution to fear, right? Which is like, oh, you have some, you have fear, here's some grounding tools, but people fail to see that a disorder is a mental illness that requires a level of care. If that said, I found a solution to your experience of fear. I would go, okay, maybe that's a tool to put in your tool belt, but when they're talking about anxiety disorders, that is horrible marketing in my mind. I think the problem is when people are speaking about anxiety disorders, a lot of the time when it's in the media, when people are marketing and promoting it, they're just using the blanket term anxiety. And I think that's where a lot of the confusion comes about, even in our communities, when people don't realize, is it just anxiety that everybody deals with? The emotion that's there to protect us from fear, or is it a mental illness, an anxiety disorder that can have a detrimental impact on our day-to-day living? Yeah, yeah. And to be fair, they didn't say for anxiety disorders or anything like that. Okay, okay. It's interesting, because my mum's into loads of spirituality and things like that. And she uses it to deal with grief and stuff. And she's into these decks and sent, whatever he's called, sent Michael or whatever. And you know what, I think it's great for her because it really helps her contextualize what is an unfathomable tragedy that happened in her life, you know, she lost her own son. So she has a belief system that works. And that's why on the fence, it depends what your belief system is. If you're in spiritual school, I'll never tell you not to. I'm not, because I'm a miserable bastard. But there are other people out there that do and it works for her. And you know what? I sit there with her and chat with her about it and stuff and my mum's happy. So I would never dismiss it. If I'm on an anxiety disorder, I'd be marching on there and be like, no, no, no, this is compulsions, this is re-empty, reassurance-seeking, this is, we need to get out of that cycle. But yeah, if it's conventional external anxiety and it works for you, go for it. If you are, like Kim said, in the cycle, because anxiety disorder is always a cycle, if you're in an anxiety disorder cycle, then yeah, that can actually have a detrimental effect. I like what you said, sorry, Drew, go ahead. I like what you said, Josh, in that we have to be responsible for our own recovery. And if it works for you, it works for you. I like that a lot. Yeah, it's a very liberal approach, which is great in the society that we're living in. Exactly. I think that the oracle, like it's an oracle deck, it probably colors that story a little bit. If she had just said, I came up with some grounding technique that helps me come back to the present and ease my mind. We probably wouldn't be questioning it so much, but the fact that she calls it an oracle deck and attaches all that connotation to it, that raises a red flag for me, but I would agree with what you guys said. Depends on what the application is. She's not marketing it to people with OCD. There was religion as well. Someone just said there in the comments, it's fine, it's okay. But again, if it's for an anxiety disorder, no, it's something that requires specialist intervention. But if you've just got worries, I mean, it's been proven, scientifically proven, that praying lowers general anxiety, which is great. They didn't even did it. And I used to do it as a kid, even when I was religious, it was like therapy in itself. But if I'm praying for the anxiety to not have a panic attack tomorrow morning, or to not have an intrusive thought, it's not gonna work. Yeah. So would your take be that having those sort of chills like the spirituality, the religion is good for your overall sort of daily, weekly routine? Like if you have it, you're not saying if you have an anxiety disorder that you shouldn't pray and you shouldn't have these cards, you're not saying that, are you? No, no, no. Well, and I would, let me disclose something to you. I love those kinds of cards, but as Drew, I do, but as Drew- I'll take them for secret, Sandra. I'm coming out of the closet. It's an oracle deck. No, but that's the interesting, as Drew said, is I have a Pema Shodron card deck on compassion. I have one on acceptance and commitment therapy, like they're little decks and they're in a box. And so I think that the card style can be really helpful for people with, because remember, mindfulness is based on spiritual practices. And so it's a huge piece of the work. So the spiritual piece isn't a problem. I think like Drew said, if you're pulling a card to answer this question of uncertainty you have is where you may get into trouble. Or to take it away. Yeah, yeah. Please take away my fear. Please take away my, you know. Right, but there are CBT card decks there. I love the card decks format, but I think the content matters. Just like I like books, but the content matters. And I like podcasts and the content matters. So you say that me and D-A to keep collecting our Pokemon cards and meeting up at weekends and trading them. If you like, if you like. Hey, sure. Pokemon, love it. No, that's great. One last one from the media, then we'll go back into the questions, guys. Two women on how they stop in drinking cured their anxiety disorders. Because every time they would drink the next day they would have intense waves of anxiety. Now they went cold turkey, they stopped drinking and they believed that that is what cured them from an anxiety disorder. I would take this one because. Yeah. One topic that I cannot believe that I speak about more than any other, there's two, they're connected though, is coffee and alcohol. More than any other, those topics come up again and again and again. And I always say, and here's my own experience. I refused, I would not drink anything, any caffeine and I would not drink any alcohol at all while I was in the thick of it because then it would make me feel different. And anything that made me feel different was very, very bad for me. So I avoided it like the plague. And as things went on and on and on, toward the end of it I would actually use like a glass of wine or a drink or a cup of coffee as practice, like, all right, let me bring up these physical sensations and move through them. But I hear people say that all the time. And again, I think this might be one of those, are they talking about just having anxiety or being stuck in the cycle of panic disorder or OCD, like that's a little different animal. So if they drank and felt crappy the next day and that just made them feel bad, then yeah, if you stop drinking, I'm gonna say sure, you won't feel that anymore, that makes sense. But I'm not sure that I would buy, like I stopped drinking that and it cured my anxiety disorder. My panic disorder magically went away. I don't know how that would be. I mean, I'm curious what you guys think. I often advise, you'll know this Drew and all of you actually, I don't know why, but like when you're in the midst of like intense panic disorder, where you have no psycho education, no knowledge of what's happening, I do actually recommend straight away, cut out stimulants straight away, just to overall ground you and then reintroduce you. Because there's no point being purist about it. I'm like, well, no, avoidance. No, I'm like, whoa, let's just give your nerves a little rest, Dr. Clare Weeks, like just kind of just, your nerves need to calm down first before we do this. And then I'll introduce that because ultimately the aim is to do what non-anxious you would have done, or as I hear in my practice all the time, what the old me would have done. I just wanna do what the old me would have done. I would have gone out and had some wine or some coffee in the morning or ate loads of glutinous food. I'm like, well, we can do that, that's recovery. You shouldn't know, anxiety or OCD shouldn't stop you from doing what you're originally doing. And actually you can regain your life back. That's what's gonna influence our exposure plan and our recovery plan. Let's go back to what non-anxious us would do. But at the same time, it's okay to cut things out initially in order to lay down your foundations for recovery. So for me, that's what I did. I did cut out caffeine initially. I did stop drinking initially. I did stop really kind of carb heavy foods because I do struggle with IBS as well. So obviously, you know, is it possible to do it without doing that? Of course it is, but you're allowed to make things easy for yourself and then build it up again. And then doing the fun exposures where you're like, I used to have a can of Diet Coke and let the caffeine hit me. I'm like, yeah, the same thing. So it's weird because it's like, I'm half hyper and excited, half thinking I'm gonna die. Yeah, well, when we're in an anxiety disorder, Josh, you often, you mentioned this on your course, which, do you know what I mean? It ties into the fact that you've got a Black Friday deal on at the moment and it's Black Friday, 99 for your course, which is fantastic. The links in my bio guys, if you wanna grab it, I would do. But back onto this, you often talk about the makeup, which is the makeup response when you're in an anxiety disorder and anything that like draws attention to something that's not feeling right. So I used to get anxious when it used to go from light like the dusk, when it used to go from light to dark and that would raise my anxiety because of the subtle changes in my surroundings. So coffee doesn't cause anxiety, but the response, your body's response to coffee can mimic an anxiety response, which then you can misinterpret and that can cause more anxiety. So I think I agree with you about cutting out the coffee, cutting out anything that can really like shine a light on, like give that makeup a heads up to look for these dangers. However, I've heard of people, and I do think I fell down this rabbit hole as well, of constantly looking on the back of like drinks to see if there was caffeine in them and avoid it, looking at chocolate as well, seeing that there was caffeine in chocolate and avoiding it. At least you'll do that. Not cause I'm mega afraid of it, I just don't want to be let in bed at 3 a.m. going a lot. Because you had something to eat that you didn't know how caffeine in it. Yeah, tyramine in chocolate sends me bananas. I'm just like, yeah, which is fine in the morning, but not at nine when I remember sat in, let in bed was like, why am I so irritated? Why can't I sleep? I'm usually tired. I'm like, there was tyramine in that pudding at the restaurant. I'm like, oh, fuck off. Yeah, but I know you mean like checking the packet to see if there's something there that may make me feel uncomfortable and uncertain. Yeah, it's trying to get the right balance. For me, though, what's really important is that the reason why I tell people to cut all that out initially is because 90% of what I do is psycho education. And I want people calm to absorb the psycho education. You're gonna absorb and literally absorb more and retain more information sat in this practice when you're calm and you not have four coffees to get here because you're gonna be like, if you're certain you're calm and it's almost like the premise of like hypnotherapy, not that I'm a hypnotherapist and will ever intend to be one. But when you are calm, it's done to the calmer you are, the more that you retain information. And that's what I like to do. It's like, let's make things easier, learn about psycho education and then reintroduce all these things again. And that's fine. So I was just saying, they're about to hop on an airplane. So maybe that causes them an anxiety usually. On an airplane. That's Kara. Kara's killing it. Sit inside the airplane. Don't go on it. On it. Get in it. Good advice from the panel. Kara deserves a shout out for that. She's working hard on her recovery and she's getting on a plane today. It's a big deal. Just a really good... Bosnit, you'll nail it. Just a really good comment, which was regarding the anger. That when this person sees angry people around them is that that causes them the anxiety? I think that's the any emotional upset can become anxiety thing. No, part of it. That's my first thought on that. Confrontation, somebody else is angry. Now they're upset, so now I get upset and then I get anxious because I'm upset. Well, I know a lot of clients who report anxiety around other people's emotions because they struggle to regulate their own and they're afraid of it. They're disappointed them, that they'll yell at them, that they'll judge them. Social anxiety is a big one for that. And if you have any trauma around abuse, I think seeing anger can create a trauma response as well of I'm frightened of anyone who has a presentation of anger. I've heard that often. That's always heartbreaking. My mom or dad, when they got angry, I was gonna be big trouble and then they carries through. It's so different to change. So yeah, sorry, go on, Josh. So I was gonna say, it's not just when stuff like that happens, it's not just like hardcore exposure. It's like with layers of compassion and understanding. Yeah. There's an emotional, proper emotional connection. Yeah. It's what stoicism really helped me when I really started to understand the fact that we're all defined by the stories we tell ourselves by what happens to us during the day and that the response that you get from someone or how someone interacts with you isn't to do with you. And it could be to do with that they've had a shitty day. They could have had the worst day at work with the boss. They could have just fallen out with their partner. They could be dealing with financial issues and then the interaction that you've had with them isn't on you. And I think with anxiety disorders, we always think inwards, don't we? So when we see someone who's being angry or aggressive towards us, we think, oh, that's because of us and that creates anxiety. But when you can separate that and change your behavior to how other people are acting and reacting with you, that was a big game changer for me personally. Yeah. Absolutely. It's not easy to do though, because it's the default thing to often think that people are out there to get you and the reason they're speaking to you is because of something you've done or you've said. I do totally understand that it goes against the norm, but changing your behavior to other people's reactions I think is a big game changer. It takes a lot of time and practice to do that. So that's not a thing you could just, people say, that's a really good pointy and I love that because I'm a huge fan of stoicism as well. And but there are so many common threads in Buddhism and Taoism also. And that idea that, well, what somebody thinks of me is none of my business is great and it's easy to say to somebody who's in the thick of that, like, oh, it doesn't matter, don't let them bother you. We can't just decide to do that. It does take a long time and a lot of practice and a lot of willingness to be really uncomfortable and just have that, ooh, that uncertainty and that feeling sit there and know, like, okay, I can handle this, but it ain't easy. But it's really useful, super. And just like recovering through an anxiety disorder, it takes practice, it isn't easy, it doesn't happen overnight. When you're doing exposures or whatever, the first time you expose yourself to an anxious response, you're not gonna be cured from your anxiety disorder. It's hard work, it takes a lot of practice and there can be a lot of setbacks there, but there is a pathway out of it. Right, I think that what we can do to tie it back to the holidays is I actually spoke a lot in the last week with my patients about using the holidays as an opportunity to practice just writing waves of emotions, right? Like, oh, you're sitting at the table and your family member commented on your food or on your anxiety. Can you actually give them zero response and just ride that wave out? And you'll be like, great, that's one, what? Okay, that's one down, what? It's just ERP. I can imagine, I'm gonna pick Tim's house out. Everything is ERP. No, I think it's more just being radically willing to ride your emotions, right? Cause there's so many of them. We've talked about anger and we've talked about alcohol and all those things. And I think a lot of that is, I mean, yeah, we could call it ERP but it's also just feeling your feelings, right? Absolutely, have do. Being human. Yeah, is there anything else that you guys want to add that we've missed out? I think we've got through a lot. I can see we're coming up to the, to the hour mark. Is there any questions really that are popping up on the forum that you can say? No, I think, you know, people have been pretty much commenting in line with what we've been talking about. You know, what kind of things today? I have a feeling the Facebook feed is broken. We have primarily two people here. So sorry about that for those who watch in the- They've all abandoned us. They've abandoned us. But no, I think everybody's pretty much followed along with us. We don't have the same number of comments because I don't think we're alive on Facebook like we usually are. So sucks. Yeah. Well, we will upload it to the recovery room and we'll share it on our platform. So you guys who can obviously come and listen to it, who haven't listened to it. But yeah, I'd just like to thank everyone for coming back. I know it's the holidays for you two. So a big thank you to you two for coming and stopping by and Josh, obviously, thank you so much for everything you do. You're just shining beacon. We'll be chatting again shortly. I know. We're back. I don't have past eight. How is it? It was a long time yesterday. Yeah. Oh, don't, don't even get started on your off and yesterday. Why? Nevermind. Have a steak, Josh. Yeah. Can we move it to nine so I can eat something? Yeah. Yeah, of course. Everybody's just watching us take care of our business now. Yeah. So is anyone working on anything for the rest of the week? Do you guys just want to give a little outro before we go? Well, let me share it. So on Instagram, I did a full poll on people's anxiety questions, and it's a two part series on my podcast, your anxiety toolkit. One is specifically related to setting boundaries with family members over the holidays. So they will be coming out over the next two weeks. If you want to keep working through this stuff and by coincidence, I recorded them, you know, and not related to this episode, but those resources will be there in the next two Fridays. Your rep did with, they called out about, when you had the guest on Kim with OCD and Emotions and stuff, that was a really good one. Jack got their name. But anyway, it came up in my support group. You've got lots of fans in my support group. No one liked me. Kim, I'm really excited to come and record with you as well, very shortly. Yeah, so I know. I'm really excited about that. I can see in the comments, Nicky Neeson definitely relate to what you say, Dean, just wanting to highlight that, Nicky. Yeah, I'm glad you do. The words of wisdom from the Dean monster. The Deanster. Who has managed to keep composed today? No laughing fits, which is fantastic. We did good. I think we did really good. We did good. No gang. Drew, anything special happening? Just a lot of projects going on. And until if anybody's watching this live or you see it right away, if you look at my Facebook or my Instagram, there's a link over to get 7% slower and the anxious truth in Kindle format is 40% off and the audio book is 40% off. So I'm going to do the Black Friday thing too. Look at me, man. So if you don't have those and you want to grab them, there are links all over the place. So go grab them. Check it out. Dean, sorry, Drew, is our audio book uploaded yet? Is it live? Yeah. Is it now? How about now? Any minute now, it could be today. So we just keep annoying him every day. Like, is it done yet? Is it done yet? How about now? Is it now? I feel like I'm driving. Sorry, are we there yet? Yeah, are we there? Are we there? Yeah. Don't make me up to the start. Don't make me pull over and whack you. Don't make me up to the start as I will. Josh, I'm not touching you. I'm not touching you. He's touching me. Like, that's what I'm talking about. Yeah. Josh, any part in words you want to leave the community with? No, it's wonderful, but it's Black Friday. If you want to stop fearing fear course, come and join our live shortly and we'll, yeah, Dean and I will be talking nonsense and shamelessly selling our course like some Peckham Market stall salesman. Sounds good. Fantastic. And like Josh mentioned, the audio book which was produced by Drew, we'd like to thank you personally for everything you did there, Drew. And yeah, we can't wait for that to be out and we'll be back on the market stall. Sounds amazing. Sounds amazing. Love it. Yeah, some really exciting parts and I can't wait for the audience to hear it. It's all good. The cartridge. Thank you so much. The cartridge. It's going to blow everybody away. Anyway, sorry guys. Cheers guys. We're all the credit. So have the credit. We're out. See you next week. Bye.