 So we are very happy to have our digital minister of Taiwan, his counterpart, DEPCOV-18, and I don't even have to tell him what to say because he knows what to do. Thank you everyone. Happy to be here. So to somewhat compensate the lack of Q&A time in the previous session, we will start with the Q&A. And if you have any device connected to the internet, please go to this website. It's called slido.com. And once you're on this website, it will be asked to enter a number. So without a hash, it's just 7, 2, 8, or today's date. And once you enter the three digits and you can press Join or a small, like, green button, and then you'll be dropped into this anonymous or pseudonymous chat channel. And here, feel free to ask me anything, like literally anything. And if you see other people's questions that you would also like to see me answer, you can just press Like. And the questions with the most number of likes will float to the top on this projection here. And for the rest of this hour, I guess, the next 15 minutes, I'll begin with a short introduction, maybe 15 minutes, maybe 20 minutes, about my work in the Taiwan administration in the public digital innovation space, the PEDIS, as you're seeing here. But meanwhile, as I'm talking, feel free to ask me any and all questions, which will show up in the phone here. And once there's sufficient number of questions, then I'll switch right back to Slido. My current favorite programming language is text slash plain. Character set, UTF-8. Yeah. It's one of the most versatile programming language there is, and I'll explore that more in my talk. I'm sure it's your favorite programming language, too. Okay. So let's get started. So unlike many people working on democracy today, I'm an optimist when it comes to democracy and especially internet democracy. This strange condition began when I was 15 years old. That was 1996. I discovered that the future of human knowledge and indeed future of democracy is happening on the web. And my education in the school is all out of date. So I told my teachers that I found this wonderful constitutional democracy called Debian. No, really I did. On the internet where people use counter-set methods and those very advanced algorithms and, you know, policy development process and so on. And I went to quit school and became my education on the wide web. And surprisingly, my teachers were very reasonable people and they all agree with it. And so after that, I just drove out of high school and started a few web startups and just participate in this wonderful community like the Internet Society and the open source and free software communities to basically see that how people can come to consensus or at least consent through radical transparency and rough consensus and so on. And so today I'm Thomas Digital Minister for a year and a half now. I'm applying the lessons that I learned when I was 15 years old that is to say civic participation, rough consensus, radical transparency to the representative democratic system here and surprisingly it's working and it's changing gradually our society. Now, right, so a year and a half, two years ago actually when President Tsai Ing-wen first became inaugurated as our president she said an inspiring statement in her inauguration speech. She said before when we think of democracy we think about the opposition between two opposing values. But now, from now on Taiwan's democracy need to become a conversation between many diverse values. So the key point here is the plural of this word value. So there's many values in Taiwan and we're going to build a conversational, deliberative democracy out of those very different but diverse values. And indeed previously, when people think about the government or the state or things like that people tend to have this picture. Like we have different departments, we have different ministries, we have different council within the parliament who talk to, for example, the environmental agency may talk to the environmentalist groups, the ministry of economy may talk to you know, developmental, you know, more capitalistic groups and so on. So there's different notes within the government to talk to the different sides of stakeholders and people imagined that the government is what brings people together and who arbitrates between those conflicting or opposing forces. Now this model of governance, as all of you know, has become bankrupt within the previous decade or so with the advent of the social web and indeed internet activism. And the reason is that people can organize now perfectly fine without a representative organizer from the mainstream media or from the representative democracy. And also because there's so many emerging issues, we can't have a different ministry or a different agency for each of them. And so if the government insists on being still this kind of rope in between, not only is this organizational value much lower than before, it will be torn between so many different interests that it becomes paralyzed. And so the distance between the government and the people while not increasing, the distance between people and people have much shortened and it leads to a recession or a distrust to the democratic institutions. So the way we're working on this is basically re-imagining the questions governance systems ask. Instead of asking who we need to represent or what is fair arbitration, we ask instead what is the due process in which the various different stakeholders can find common values. And given the common values, can we come up with solutions that works for everyone that everyone can live with? And so this is the idea of civic tech or basically technology that enables people to understand what's going to happen or basically technology that enable people to listen to one another. And this has basically a lot of international metrics measuring this like the diversity of gender and participation in the internet like the rank of open data and accessibility like the access to e-participation platforms and things like that. And since 2015 Taiwan has been consistently ranked number one or number two in all of those metrics worldwide. And the reason is that at the end of 2014 there's a radical U-turn of national direction by embracing the wisdom of the crowd and open government as the national direction. And it was kind of catalyzed and epitomized by a Occupy movement back in 2014 where people occupied the parliament for 22 days in a nonviolent demonstration. And when we say demonstration it in like the demo day since, right? It's a demo because at the time the members of parliament Taiwan refused to deliberate a cross-strait service-trade agreement because they think constitutionally Beijing is part of Taiwan or something like that. But in any case they refused to deliberate a statement, a treaty. And so people occupied the parliament and did the MPs work for them by basically deliberating line by line what the service-trade pack entails. And there's more than 20 different NGOs in all the different streets around the parliament in a nonviolent way just deliberating aspects of this cross-strait service agreement. And it was part of the movement that supported the logistics and the ICT communication for this movement. And it's called G0V.TW or just GOV0. And the idea of GOV0 is very simple for any Taiwan government services G0V.TW we just registered this domain G0V.TW so that people whenever they see a government service or website that's not to the people's liking they can just fork that website and build a more interactive open version that just changes the O to a zero on your URL and it's very easy to discover. It solves the discoverability problem. So like for the legislation legislative UNGOV.TW the shadow government is just LY.G0V.TW it's very easy to remember it's a very neat hack. So the first project of the GOV0 movement back in 2012 before I joined was called budget.G0V.TW and it's essentially interactive platform that shows a visualization of the national budget and everybody can just look on the part the specific project that they're interested in if a real-time discussion on the discussion forum center on that budget item as the social object instead of on the budget as a whole and the idea again is forking the government and usually the GOV.0 projects are under a free software license or really the creative common zero license which is not a license it's just a declaration donation to the public domain and the result is that when the state level government at the end of 2014 want to incorporate this into like the participatory budget program and things like that and they have to ask anyone they just take the GOV.0 forked versions and merge it back to the state level governments and so far there's like seven different cities adopting this and as of this year the national government also merged this in so that today in joined the GOV.TW we can see all the 1300 national projects and all its KPIs deliverables and things like that and have a real-time discussion with the career public servants in charge of this project essentially bypassing the representative democratic system and so it enables a real discussion. So why are there so many civic hackers in Taiwan who during the sunflower movement just like me I just you know talk to my clients that I need to take a three-week leave because democracy needs me right there's hundreds of people who did that back in 2014 and why is that because I think I'm 37 now we're the first one that can actually do democracy after three decades of martial law which was lifted in 1989 around the time of personal computers and we only had our first presidential election in 1996 which is about a year of the popularization of the Royal Web. So internet and democracy they're not two things they're not two different branches people it's the same generation people it's the same thing in Taiwan and so the advent of democracy and the advent of internet and direct democracy it's the same time in Taiwan we don't have like 200 or 300 years of representative democracy tradition when we had democracy we had also the internet. So in Taiwan when we see or when we talk about free software we translate it as 自由 so it's always free as in freedom to you know assemble freedom of speech freedom to express and never free of cost because we know that freedom is never free of cost our parents generation our grandparents generation fought very hard to get those freedoms and it's up to us to use the software freedoms to keep the society free. And so at the end of 2014 and after the Occupy there's many mayors mayor candidates who were Occupy supporters or occupiers themselves who very surprisingly found themselves elected mayors when they did not expect it's something that also happened in Spain also right and in many other you know occupies in that time and so at a time the premier during the Occupy resigned saying I don't understand you people and so he just resigned and a new premier engineer said okay so from now on crowdsourcing and open governance it's just going to be the national direction and so the occupiers and us the supporters of the occupies the facilitators and the ICT experts were then hired into the international government in early 2015 to help designing systems to collaboratively solve issues such as Uber at a time and Uber in 2015 has entered Taiwan and operated legally using rental cars and professional drivers for a while but in 2015 they also introduced a new line of service called UberX and it is using unlicensed drivers and unlicensed cars and without insurance and the PR idea of Uber at a time is to use this MIM which is a virus of the mind right this MIM called sharing economy this MIM means very different thing to different people but for the Uber PR department at a time it means very specifically that code dispatch cars better than loss so we obey code not loss so it's like very simple message that spreads around the world it's not just in Taiwan and so it's a like epidemic of the mind so people after becoming a driver for a couple weeks maybe they feel that there's no protection that they didn't actually earn that much and they quit driving for UberX but during that two weeks time just like a common flu they would have spread through apps to their passengers and to other drivers and to other passengers and so it's impossible actually at a time for us to negotiate with an app or with a virus of the mind like the MIM quote unquote because it's in a different category it's impossible to argue with the common flu either right so at a time many state governments try to use old world methods such as confiscating like in Paris they confiscate the office confiscate the machines put people to jail and then the next morning Uber still operates right so it doesn't really work in the old governmental methods and so we thought about it and we thought that you know during the Occupy where people listen to each other's positions deeply and feel each other's feelings around the CSSTA maybe we can reuse some of that technique and to work on the Uber issue basically we think that deliberation is a vaccine of the mind once people have really felt and empathized with different sides positions and come up with common values people become immune to specific virus of the mind in the future so I promise to check the questions at this point so I'm just going to do it right now there's 17 questions maybe I'll just right so I'll finish this section and then switch right back to questions so a proper deliberation involves four different stages we use the system invented in Canada in 2005 it's called a focus conversation method or FCM and it's known as the ORI method also because it separates the discussion to four different stages the first is objective or facts where people ask each other like the government publishes open data all we know about UberX and we also ask all the private sector and civil society to donate data into this shared fact checked database and once people check the facts on the timeline we can all agree with the facts the various stakeholders then express their feelings for the same I'm angry and I may feel happy and it's all okay and it's not until we checked everybody's feelings that we find that there are some resonating feelings that people all feel as important concerns to ideate on so after the facts the feelings is the ideas the best ideas are the ideas that takes care of the most people's feelings and once we uncovered those ideas we then translated into legal ease now using the OAT governmental methods the main barrier is the language barrier the professional public servants the private sector lobbyists and the independent like academics and so on use a professional language while people on the street using a different language and so under this under this situation when people say the same thing but mean very different things the facts and the feelings gets clouded and ideas in this environment become ideologies ideologies are even more potent virus of mind that blinds people to new facts and to each other's feelings and so after we get everybody on the same page checking the facts that by itself is important we use a free software system under HEPL called PULIS and PULIS is a so-called AI power conversation that basically just provides a face to the crowd so we ask everybody to basically look at one statement that their friends are just a random person on the internet propose about their feeling their something so I think or I feel that passenger liability insurance is important so as you agree or disagree with the statements your avatar will move among your social media friends or you don't have to log in among well-known people on social media so that you can discover that so your friends and your family actually think about this in a very different perspective but they're still your friends and family you just didn't talk about this over dinner so it makes it difficult for people to antagonize to treat people with different viewpoints as enemies but rather it enables people to say that okay after answering a few yes and no questions I can also contribute my feelings and people kind of compete on feelings that resonates with the most number of people because we say if your ideas or if your feelings resonates with a super majority amount of people like that is across all the groups every group has more than majority agreeing with you then the feelings and proposals with the most resonance with the most consensus we use that as the agenda to talk with the stakeholders with the taxi unions with the Uber people and so on and so in this way we send the same URL to everybody and they spread it and one of the key interface design decisions during a pollist discussion unlike many other social media venues is that you don't see the reply button here there is no reply and what we discovered is if you have reply people focus their energy on discrediting the person who posted a comment that they don't agree with but like Slido pollist basically if you see something that you don't agree with your best recourse is to propose something more nuanced that other people can agree with and so after a few weeks in all the pollist discussions what we see is people recognize their differences in those devices statements but they don't spend more time on it and people instead spend a lot of time on refining the nuanced consensus so that people can resonate kind of compete with the most resonance across the different groups and so we use a life consultation method where all the stakeholders are invited the taxi company, Uber union people and so on the co-ops and so on and we just check with them all the agenda that by this pollist conversation one by one saying do you agree and if you don't why, if you do why and because it's live stream with thousands of people watching people become bound to whatever they have said so Uber at the time said okay so we will work with our drivers to help them obtain professional driver's license and they're bound by the words they spoke at this live stream meeting and so just after this we then work on ratifying the new what we call the diversification of taxi and one of the highest score is actually contributed by the free software community by Irvin from the Mozilla community here who said that we should take this opportunity to upgrade the taxi regulations so that the best practices from Uber for example taxi doesn't have to be painted yellow and there's a two way rating system and so on could be used to facilitate better tax equalities here inside one and so led by that consensus and six other consensus items we then created a law so that now Uber is operating legally in Taiwan but only with registered drivers license cards and you also get email about your rides and insurance and so on every Uber ride and you can also call taxi with Uber and actually vice versa and so this is what we call a multi stakeholder consultation and after which people's consensus set agenda for the politicians to talk about so let's take some questions so there's 13 people I think 15 now would like to know how can we help other governments enable open standards this is an excellent question so in Taiwan we have this idea of the GDSB or the government digital service principle it is modelled loosely after the government digital service in the UK will also publish their digital standards and the GDS is kind of a thought leader in this area and they pioneer a lot of digital standards that are not just open as in open source or open as in open political or format but open as in open innovation where people everybody can contribute and one of their key principles is being user centric which we hear expanded in Taiwan meaning that the users here not only include citizens but also people working in the front line in the public service and the second thing that the UK GDS also basically advocates is that when you build a digital service you need not to only test with people and the front line staff but also test with the minister in the cabinet from the beginning to the end because ultimately they're accountable for this digital service and they can then solicit more idea of innovation from this service and again we adopted this in a way that we can contribute to this and also call for the leader to be basically cross disciplinary but I think the person who asked this question is maybe most interested in our GDSP number eight which says open first basically open is the priority and basically to reduce the time spent on developing services ownership open should be the foremost principle when designing and building services and by open we mean specifically that all the machine to machine data built by this system need to be available under an open license most commonly the Creative Commons attribution 4.0 license which is the default license for all the ICT systems built in Taiwan and also we prioritize open source and if the service component reuses existing open source components we recommend people to use Linux foundation speedix or SPDX manifest to basically solve this warranty issue for the system integrators because once they declare their reusable free software components under speedix the warranty in the legal perspective has a clear delineation and so by this we want to encourage people to innovate based on what the government has delivered and improve on existing government services by forking the government and occasionally getting it right and getting governments merging it back but not only open data and open source we also say that it need to conform with open standards and so that it could be reused and also it's built on common API and common components and all this is so that we can quickly reiterate and improve the services and so we have a support group of all the governments who endorse this standard it's called digital nations and previously known as digital five or digital seven depending on the number of people in it but we have a chat channel we share github repositories we basically communicate very regularly so that the governments who embrace open by default has this venue and I think our next meeting is in forward 50 in Ottawa in Canada this November and so basically all the governments are solving very much similar issues and all the components that we deliver is not just for improvement of our citizens but also offering it so that it could be reused by the government and people building their own self-governance system not necessarily state government or representative governments worldwide the answer to this is to develop and adhere to a clear government digital service principle to publish and circulate this widely to encourage this in the procurement laws and to encourage this in the accountability in the auditing laws in the statistics laws which we all have done and then participate internationally in support groups in the democratic and open governance governments and basically share these best practice or at least better practices as open tool kits and that's the thing that we're doing 12 people would like me to answer what do I wish from Debian I wish that Debian live long and prosper because because really along with other large end of us like the Mozilla Foundation and the Linux Foundation the Wikimedia Foundation so you fix the foundation upon which that we're advocating to the representative democratic system that hey there is some merit in this kind of radical transparency in a kind of radical participation and as a anarchist conservative anarchist minister I have three conditions going in the cabinets the first is that I don't issue a command to anyone nor do I take a command everything is by voluntary association and this is straight from the Debian constitution where by constitution nobody can really be forced into doing any non-voluntary work and the second one is that I get to work anywhere on the planet and it still counts as working so it's teleworking and it also enabled a lot of e-government apparatus when people discovered that by a paper based delivery well they can reach me after a week or so it is far easier if you just use email but the third thing also very important is that when I develop this voluntary co-creation methodologies it is important for me to be radically transparent and by radical transparency not just meeting with lobbyists and journalists are all published online even internal meetings that I chair we also publish everything as a transcript two weeks after every internal meeting and so it looks like this is also using a free software system called Say It developed by I think my society in the UK so like when Debbie Plou speaking for Uber at the time come to lobby and have a conversation not only is our discussion on the record it's on 360 record so we can put on a VR cardboard and relive the conversation and every utterance has a permanent URL so you can get full accountability of who said what where and this is important for the government service because the public servants in this situation they become very innovative contrary to popular belief because previously when something gets right and people like it the minister always takes all the credit and if something gets wrong always the career public servants who didn't execute well and netizens has a way to blame the people in charge for it so in that situation there's no motivation for them to innovate but now with this radically transparent system not only is the civil society more understanding of the context before making a decision but also all the credit gets shared to the actual career public servants who propose something innovative in the first place and if anything goes wrong well because far as I know I'm the only minister in the world doing this it's all Audrey's fault so basically people I can absorb the blame while people share the credit so we get a lot of very innovative ideas frankly from the public service such as adopting a thoroughly free software system called Sandstorm IO for our entire public service and in all the different branches of government not just the administration and so basically we use early free software on this Sandstorm IO system, DAFAROS replaces drawbacks, either Calgary replaces Google spreadsheet, either PAW replaces Google doc, we can replace Trello and there's also Rocket Chat and I'm sure you know the other tools that the free software people use and basically we say any public servants as long as they have a GOVTW email address can enjoy this for free and even develop new applications on it because it's cyber security hardened we ask our best white hackers to attack it and filed a few CVEs so that we're reasonably sure that it's very secure now so that people can develop applications by themselves which is free software and like I don't know planning travels together, ordering lunch boxes together and things like and unleash innovation within the government because they know that this system can absorb the cyber security risk and I can absorb the political risk 17 people would like to know how to discover Dabian and what makes it interesting at such a young age do you run Dabian yourself, have you contributed to Dabian? Personally my desktop environment when I started learning I think it's around 1999 like system level programming I'm sorry has always been free BSD and so I've never actually I used the Dabian compatibility layer, I don't know whether that counts or not but I've always been a free BSD developer and contributed to also driver support in free BSD and also most of my contributions in the Pearl community and in Open Foundry here in Taiwan in the early 2000s were first committed to the free BSD port system so it's a different culture it's not copy lab, it's not copyright, it's copy center you go to the copy center and make many copies and so that's a very permissive community that's my primary community, the free BSD community but there's various efforts within Dabian to reconcile with for example the module signing system I piloted the module signing system in C-Pen in the comprehensive pro archive network and so there's a lot of packaging issues and so on so I basically chime in from here to there but I did not participate in the Dabian democracy but I really admire it from afar in the free BSD camp this Taiwan has an open source strategy, yes I'm glad you asked so it's called DigiPlus and I don't know how much of this is translated into English oh all of it, okay it's good so if you go to smart.taiwan.gov.tw so we tend to have one webpage for each major government policies so there's smart Taiwan, GOV, TW, there's AI Taiwan, there's BioTaiwan, there's also CI Taiwan I think that's not yet translated where the CI stands for Civil IOC which is shared open data and also open algorithm platform for all the different environmental data aggregated in a supercomputing standard that combines the peoples like the Gulf Zero side of our sensors and also the government side of government sensors so that we can all talk with the same fact based or evident based policy making process so I encourage you to check out smart Taiwan and also links to Asia, Silicon Valley and things like that and so when we talk about open society here and also about the education like interdisciplinary digital talents in the DigiPlus plan we specifically said especially in the education level that is to say K to 12 level but also because in the next 5 years all the college level students also need to learn computational thinking and programming half of it I think by the year like 2021 or something all of it needs to be based on free software if the student graduates and joins the private sector and choose to use proprietary software that is their choice and of course there is no doubt about it but while they are still children while they are still in the schools it is very important for us to not let the children or the students to be subject to vendor login so that by the time they graduate maybe the vendor has already moved somewhere else maybe the vendor lose interest in that product line and we see a lot of that dynamic so at least in the education system we are very firm that we prefer free software for education when teaching all those different you know digital plus power, smart machinery green energy technology and so on we prefer free software when it is in the school and so in the digital plus there is a strategy to raise awareness and have talents in school and there is also TWSS.io I think I hope I remember this right which is a again not yet translated into English oh it is somewhat translated to English but in any case yes so what this tries to do is basically by getting people sufficient education materials so people working on any level of education can point to existing communities and introduce their students to such community and even people working in like city level government or national level government can also point to the work cases of incorporating like PostgreSQL or like OpenStack or Docker ecosystem or TensorFlow or whatever and which is the success story and you are replacing proprietary systems because it is not about procurement anymore we already change our procurement regulations and the government digital service principle all that people need now is a boost of confidence, of gulish basically by people keep telling them it is okay to use free software and so this is the TWSS.io endeavor and if you find anything wrong with it or anything you can contribute please feel free to let us know in TWSS what is time is so restrictive on internet access captive mortals, registrar's ID for ITOM, Wi-Fi access etc is there a reason, bad experiences or not? Well the reason is usually cited as quote cybersecurity unquote but it is not a very strong reason. We are actively looking actually like in the Taiwan high speed rails to relax the captive portal because especially when you are on a high speed moving train it is very difficult to actually resume from hotspot to hotspots if you need to go through like five or three screens to register so that's the first place where we will relax this captive portal thing and then once this is done and piloted and proven that there really doesn't need to more you know cybersecurity guards that we can put out here cybersecurity guards elsewhere on the stack, not necessarily on the personal identification level then we will also relax the like internal within the government agencies we often provide two Wi-Fi one for employees of the government and one called ITI one also for visitors so the visitor Wi-Fi we then will also look to relax more and that's because in those two venues in the high speed rails and also in visitors to government agencies you already did your registration somewhere else where we don't physically actually need you to register again. I'm less sure about the city level public Wi-Fi like TPE3 or other city level Wi-Fi because they have a certain level of autonomy and we don't actually dictate what they do but we just pilot this relaxed logging portal thing and also establish corresponding cybersecurity rules and maybe the city level people will also get enlightened we'll see. There's 11 people who want to know is it possible to be a citizen to interact fully with the government without using any proprietary software and Clio asked because that's one of the cases that I'd like to show. It used to be very very difficult so just last May actually there was a petition that talks explicitly about it and very explicit last May there was a e-petition or national e-petition system which after 5,000 people participate online you can use email or SMS it's not a real name basis but basically after 5,000 people counter-signed a petition the government is oblique to respond to it and this petition is by this user experience designer Georgian which says that our text filing system is explosively hostile to users so it's kind of negative energy in that petition there's more negative energy in the body which I will spare you the quote but basically at time about 80% of comments in that petition are in the discussion area it's very negative it costs for the resignment of the minister of finance it costs there's a lot of accusations to the vendors who provide the system and all because in Windows there is a proprietary Windows-based application for text filing but for Linux and for Mac and basically non-Windows systems there's a Java applet and because last year the user experience become very, very bad people will see that please wait it's still installing some applet components but because the pop-up is by default blocked right so nothing happens and after 40 minutes people are still waiting and so it really is very very difficult to use and after the petition we basically there's a participation officer team in each ministry and each participation office or a PO is responsible just like media officer who talk to journalists or parliamentary officer who talk to MPs POs talk to such emergent petitions and by basically saying I think not only very quickly 36 hours after this petition our PO Yang Jing-heng just posted publicly that everybody who complain about our text filing experience on non-Windows systems is cordially invited to a co-creation workshop some Friday in the ministry of finance and this is very interesting because just by proposing this invitation previously like 80% of people were just flaming and 20% of people were saying we're using Windows it works kind of okay but nobody really take key to them after this invitation is sent 80% of people started proposing useful suggestions useful recommendations and only less than 20% still remains trolling or flaming people but people don't pay attention to them anymore so basically what we did was inviting the trolls and who turns out to be not trolls they were just fed up with the text filing system and they had to vent their feelings but after they vent their feelings we then solicited ideas from them and people who can make it to Taipei make it to Taipei otherwise people can still participate using live streaming and one of the key thing here is radical transparency and also accountability meaning that people who say that it's you know the words are explosively crowded we just put that post it as words are explosively crowded that it is so brilliantly written that people are confused and then we just post it and people say you know instead of designing a system that makes people feel better people don't feel good at all when they think about filing taxes and so we should shorten the experience instead of trying to make people feel better and so on and so basically people who propose such variations online we just use service design methodologies and HODE 5 co-creation workshops with all the different stakeholders involving the text filing experience so this year the text filing experience for non-windows systems is entirely HTML5 based it adheres to the open standards people can just using any platform that can run a browser to access the text filing system so the short question to short answer to this question is that it has become more and more possible while we transform existing desktop oriented or window specific or Java applets into web based situations now if you insist that all the JavaScript libraries and CSS libraries that government system use has also to be open source or free software that would take a little bit more time you will need the current generation of system to be wholly replaced by post government digital service principle post GDSP systems but we are focusing on reducing the load on the client side first so at the time I think you can complete most of the interactions of the governmental issues like filing taxes and so on if you're okay with using a free software browser but there's still some proprietary JavaScript code this is kind of the question we're in at the moment but with the role of GDSP we're also looking to make the JavaScript and CSS and also the back end systems more non proprietary Anonymous would like to know the shared objects in the text filing plugin is not open source why because the copyright belongs to I think the vendor and back when we signed the agreement with the the GDSP was not in effect and so the contract basically attributed the copyright to the vendor who only conferred usage right to the government and the citizens this is a mistake that we will not repeat but at the moment we don't have the legal records for the current generation of plugin systems to be re-licensed as free software I tried but the easiest way is just for the next version of identification methods such as the national healthcare card which by the way is currently in public consultation if you want to contribute like you demand free software stack for the entire Medicare system please feel free to go to join GOVTW where we are now asking for consultation on people who are looking to virtualize the universal Medicare card and or to use NFC based authentication so we want to know about people's preference when it comes to the technology to the regulations as well as to the total cost of ownership and also of usage and so if you feel strongly about it please do contribute online on joint platform so that we can say to the people right in the contracts that people really feel that is very important for our next generation authentication methods to be non proprietary so please so 8 people would like to know what is your opinion on e-commerce application refusing to operating a restriction of free devices like rooted androids and jailbroken i-devices is it fair? well mostly I think they do this with the call to you know quote fraud prevention unquote it's not about fairness I think it's about the choice or the freedom of choice or the liberty of users the reason why GDSP prefers free software is because when it comes to healthcare or tax filing there really is no choice to be a citizen in Taiwan you have to go through some government sponsored API endpoints to produce some you know government sponsored form data and so on and because there is no choice we really need to be open so that people can hold us to account to be more transparent and also innovate on existing solutions but for e-commerce applications where there are no de facto monopolies when people still have a choice the government at the moment does not take a stance against the e-commerce apps who uses you know fraud detection or prevention methods that results in incompatibility with rooted Android and Android devices I think one of the possible direction out of this dilemma is to basically talk to people who work on quote fraud prevention unquote and just like how we talked with the high speed rails and the government agencies providing itaewon software and sorry Wi-Fi for free we basically said you can do your fraud prevention or cybersecurity on another layer in this system and not in the particular layer of requiring a captive portal and the MAC which is very easy to spoof anyway so I think just by talking to people like this or we talk to people who advocate copyright protection through blocking of the internet we say you know with IPv6 it's getting more and more impossible and watermarking or real-time watermarking methodologies it infringes on the consumers or customers experiences less and it is actually a better solution overall than just banning entire websites and so on so people have legitimate interests there are legitimate mistakes but as I said often we think of it as like a tug of war but in many different cases it is possible actually with some what we call social innovation a innovation that basically takes care of all the different sides of interest and leaves nobody worse off so I would encourage people who feel strongly about it to contact your local friendly e-commerce association like Wu Dianmian, Xiang Ye, Tong Ye, Gong Hui and so on who does have a forum to talk about things like this we use that forum to talk about fraud detection and prevention of like people selling counterfeit goods on Facebook to pretty good effect so I would also encourage you to contact your local association about fraud detection. Can we see any legislators supporting free software in the government movement like public money public code from the EFF well in Taiwan when you see this government the GDSP we already say this this is public code this is open data and this is open standards and also common APIs also a Linux foundation project called OAS3 which was Swagger to say that all the different systems built as long as it has a machine to machine component need to adhere to this machine to machine open API specification and the reason why we put an equal amount of attention on the source code license versus the machine to machine integration is that if we only talk about public code or the license it is very often that the system integrator would deliver something that is technically free software but it depends on for example expensive Oracle systems or even more expensive DB2 systems and things like that and that basically still restricts the reuse across different ministries and agencies but by saying you know for all the important export for all the batch level access that basically treating machine to machine accessibility the same way we treat universal access like for blind people we basically say while you may still depend on Oracle or DB2 at a point the next vendor can just build on your API and even batch export what's in this public money page database and rebuild a service without depending on any proprietary technological stack so I would argue that the freedom of portability is as important as freedom to fork and freedom to reuse and both are of course very important and constitutional I'm not supposed to speculate on legislators but there's various younger legislators in all the different parties who are also interested in this area is there any chance 8 people would like to know that I can urge deans of higher education facilities like NCTU to deploy IP version 6 well it's kind of a bootstrapping problem isn't it but this year we see a surge of IPv6 adoption actually after Taiwanese changed hands and embrace a very IPv6 first roadmap we see for example Zhonghua telecom has drastically increased the IPv6 connectivity of their mobile clients and we also see other telecoms and other appearing institutions and ISPs starting to adopt this trend and so once there's sufficient amount of people using the clients that are IPv6 enabled and even IPv6 preferred there will be sufficient pressure then for the service providers to provide as good if not better service over IPv6 and so I feel you're QQ I help you you're QQ but I'm QQ but I think really it is up to the students and the clients and the users of the internet the last mile providers to first build a useful and usable IPv6 environment before we can then demand the service providers to do so but we are seeing pretty good trends as of this year and so if you come back next year I think there will be sufficient demand from the user side to have the institutional internet service providers to provide IPv6 also so I'm technically out of time so I'll just take one last question what is my opinion of the European Union Journal of Data Protection Regulation or the GDPR my opinion is that the GDPR is a much needed conversation that translates the idea of data from what people will confuse with assets intellectual properties which are leaky abstractions that doesn't mean anything to a what we call data agency or a relationship based world view basically as a government institution if I hold your data this is the beginning of a relationship where you can ask what happens to the data who can update the data so it reflects the purpose and if I try to use the data in any way other than pure statistics I need to check with you first so that you can know what's going on and provide the most up to date data instead of leaving just a shadow of a digital trail that's five years out of date that results in more bias and so I think data agency and data as a relationship and also data accountability interestingly translate in Mandarin as three different words for people who ask for accountability it's called Wenzel for us who are held accountable it's called Dangze we should be accountable and the system within it that holds both sides together so it's not an agency or an accountability mechanism so Wenzel, Dangze and Kertz is a relational concept it is not a one-time transactional concept and I think GDPR is a much needed wake-up call for everybody to see data as a relationship and not as some digital asset or intellectual property so thank you very much