 Hi, everybody. Thanks for joining us today for this conversation. I've been looking forward to it so much since Nick reached out. I will let you tell that story, Nick, eventually. But just want to welcome everybody. And this is our conversation about writing trans realities. And it's really become, as we've prepared for this, a talk about trans realities and all of the aspects of theater. And I'm really excited to share that with you partly because I'm here to learn. I'm here to be enlightened. And by way of introduction, I'm just going to say my name. My name is Lauren Gunderson. My pronouns are she, her, hers. And Nick, why don't you share yours? I'm Nick Sommerfeld. Pronouns are they them. And I'm Scott Turner Schofield. Is he him or they them? Thanks, y'all, so much for being here. So a little bit of an intro, and then I'm going to pass it to y'all and maybe pepper you with conversations. But mostly I'm here to listen like everybody else. The way we wanted to start this, the kind of mode and aesthetic of the conversation is one of joy and welcoming and saying we think that there are more people out there who want to help and want to know how to help and want to know how to know how to do it right and be as welcoming as possible. So we want to lean into that and say, here's how. These are some tips for how to be awesome. And yeah, and we will make time to respond to questions in the comments. Should you want them? The description also has a ton of resources for those of you who want to know more about this. Reach out, continue the conversation, continue learning and growing. So there's a lot free to do. Yeah, and I'm just I'm so thrilled. Do y'all, well, okay, let me just brag about y'all for a little bit first. So Nick is from Oakland, California, right across the bay from me, an actor and a writer. And I could call you a consultant around these issues, certainly for sketch your work with killing my lobster. And there was just a really cool article about you in the San Francisco Chronicle, like big old picture there. And I was like, hi, hi. So Nick is rad and really started this whole thing when they reached out to me after a class and just said, let's talk about this. And I was like, how about you talk about it? That's a better idea. And then Scott Turner, Scofield, I know from my time at Emory, we went to college together. You were always just the beacon of creativity and questioning and challenging form and writing and performing. And you continue to do that with your work in theater, your one person shows, your movie just premiered, you work in TV and film and as a consultant and just all around change maker and bad ass. So I'm thrilled the other here. Why don't we start Nick with, actually, Turner, would you start with your kind of thesis statement, what you wrote so beautifully about like belief and inclusion and that kind of framework maybe? Yeah, well, as we were talking about this, there's so much to get into. So first of all, we're just going to go like deep and we know you can come with us. So let's just do it, right? We're trying to kind of frame like how do we put all the things that we want to talk about together? And what really just came clear to me is, look, theater is first of all a space of belief, right? We walk into a theater, we believe what comes on there, right? It's also a space of inclusion. Like the whole reason I do theater is because when I was a teenage freak, it was like the one place where I felt at home and included, right? And finally, theater is a place of expansion, right? It's where we go to grow ourselves, to grow our imaginations, to grow our empathy and our capacity to experience life with one another. So all of the things that we're going to talk about in this, everything from sort of the philosophical underpinnings of it to the nitty gritty how-to of it is all within that framework, right? That we all are invested in creating a space of belief, of inclusion and expansion. And this is just going to help us do it more and better. Awesome. Thank you. And Nick, do you want to tell us kind of how this whole thing came to be, which started with your awesome email? Yeah. Well, as mentioned, I'm a playwright and I had several friends who, when Lauren was going to do her online playwriting class, were like, have you seen this? Have you seen this? And so I started watching the class and I was really intrigued by everything Lauren was talking about. But I found myself having a lot of questions that I, that were about being a transwriter, trans stories, being a trans actor that I was really curious to get your perspective on. So it all started with an email of just like, hey, I've got questions. I would love to get your thoughts. I would love to have this conversation, to which Lauren was like, great idea. Great conversation. Let's make the class. Yeah. Allyship 101. Yeah, all right. There you go. That's how to do it. Just be like, sure, but you do it. I'll just show up. And then of course, immediately thought of Turner and all the great work that you do both as an artist and an activist and a consultant. So here we are talking about this thing that is so critically important. And honestly, if theater can't do it right, then nobody's going to do it right. So we're going to show theaters about creating the world you want to see, even if it's a strange new one, an impossible one at the moment, nothing is strange, nothing is impossible in the theater. And we all come to it going, I want to be better and know more and see the full extent of the human experience. So we are. So our cool structure for this is reverse engineering and experience. So we thought, what if we start in a rehearsal? Like let's just say it's a first day of rehearsal. What are the ways that we can make this place, the space, this imaginary rehearsal, super inclusive, super welcoming. And we'll kind of go back from there, kind of start what would that first rehearsal be like, and then kind of back it up to go, okay, well, how did we get in this room, the casting process? Who are the gatekeepers? How do we open up those spaces and then back it up from there? What show are we doing? How was it written? Why was it written? And then back it up even more to kind of who can we be after this? So we're going to start in rehearsal. Scott, do you want to start us in rehearsal? Yeah, so let's go back to pronouns. You want to start with that, Nick? Yeah, sounds good. I mean, the easiest way to make a space feel inclusive, especially if you don't know if anyone in the room identifies as trans, non-binary, anything in that spectrum, anything outside of being cis-identified, the easiest way to make a room feel really inclusive is to just ask people their pronouns, pay attention to them, and then use them respecting pronouns and really being aware of them is such an easy way to immediately make everyone in the room feel comfortable and like it's a safe welcoming space. And you know, sometimes people get, you know, what's the big deal about a pronoun, right? Like it's just a word and if I'm doing it with good intent, why does it matter? So first of all, there are people who are like, look, I'll take whatever pronoun as long as it's said with good intent. Great. But there are some people for whom this is about like, do you believe who I know I am? Do you just think I'm going through a phase or I'm lying or I'm crazy, right? Like, that's how deep it can be. And if you think about pronoun usage, right? From the minute someone says they're pregnant, we start using a pronoun for the cluster of cells growing in the body, right? That's how important pronouns are. They're used for us even before we're born, right? And yeah, it is a big deal to peel off that label and to change it, right? Or to sharpie over it, right? And put it back on, right? Sure, certainly, right? You know, one example that I use is I was driving in England for the first time and they drive on the other side of the road and you don't realize how much you drive instinctively, right? Like you drive with your body, you don't drive with your mind. It's not a conscious process. And I have everybody that I love in the back of this minivan. I'm like, I'm going to kill us all, right? And I had this, of course, my thought was, this must be what it feels like with pronouns, right? So we recognize that this could be a transition for you, right? But at the same time doing it, it's not a matter of preference. We've moved away from the terms, you know, preferred pronouns. They're your pronouns and they really matter. And not doing it, if you don't do it, that's not the first time somebody's done it all day. And have you ever heard the phrase death by a thousand paper cuts? It's like that. When someone misgenders you, doesn't use the right pronoun for you, it's like, you don't see me. You don't believe me. I'll never be known for who I am. Do I even exist? It gets really, really deep. And so that's why it's so important. And exactly as Nick said, just like Lauren did, right? Starting the conversation with yourself, right? By saying, these are my pronouns. I recognize that I'm not just the wallpaper, right? I have pronouns too, and I'll share them. And that makes a space for anybody who might use different pronouns, right? That you might not be able to immediately see or know. It gives them the space to say, okay, I'm believed in this room. I'm supported in this room and I can, I can share this information. And if you make a mistake, look, no big deal, right? You just, so for example, Nick said he'd like the papers. Oh God, I'm so sorry, Nick. Oh, man, this pronoun thing, it's so hard to do. Like adding like injury to insult there, right? Instead, you say Nick said he'd like the paper. I'm sorry, Nick, excuse me. Nick said they'd like the papers on their desk by Friday. You just acknowledge it, change it, move on. And do it right. You can't just keep forgetting. You can't just always be trying. There is no goodbye. You only do, right? Make a flashcard. It's for probably one or two people in your entire world, right? I often tell people it's not so much about the apology. Like, like you're saying, if you make a mistake, it doesn't have to be a huge thing. It's about the intent. If you, you know, if you're like, sorry, I messed that up, correct, move on. Like, we, you know, people can tell if you're trying. And like, if you're trying and you're improving, like we understand that there's going to be mistakes at the beginning. But like, if, if slowly there's just fewer mistakes, then that means the world because that just shows that the effort is there, which can really make a huge difference. Your intent really is very clear in these situations. But also if you get guilty and mad at yourself, it stops you from learning, right? Right. The other thing about learning and collaboration with pronounces, if you are having that experience of being mad at yourself, that registers and you know how sometimes it registers like you're mad at the other person? Yeah. When someone's just mad about something, sometimes you feel like you're mad at me, right? So in the collaboration of the, of a theatrical process, this tension can really become toxic in the room, right? So it's why we really have to go like, look, call this person by the character name, right? Or the character's pronoun, whatever you have to do to get there, right? But don't, there's no room for anger about this, right? It's just about taking care of the person and going in with that intent. And both you had said in our call before this about like we, we give people new names all the time in the theater. That's literally day one is here's you, here's your character, here's different ways of speaking about each other. Sometimes you call the person by their character name. Sometimes, you know, so we have this flexibility built in already. It's just you know, using it, applying it in a new way. And I mean, again, we can all, we can already click into that. And this is an even deeper usage of it. Right. Then there's the architecture of your space, right? So if a person walks in and they see that there's, that there's a restroom that they can use without thinking about it, right? Whether that's having male, female, and a all gender bathroom or all gender bathrooms all entirely, right? It doesn't matter how you do it, right? But as long as there's a space that someone can use both as a bathroom, right? And also as a dressing room, right? And I think that what's really important here is to stop thinking about gender, right? And actually just think about privacy, right? Yeah. Like, nobody likes a big bunch of stalls, right? Everybody would prefer to use the bathroom privately, right? Right. There are people who in, you know, we're in theater, right? There are people who don't care who are totally would be happy to be naked in front of anybody, right? I am one of those people that's I don't care, right? And there are people who super care, right? Right. So for the people who don't care, maybe gender isn't actually important to them. They're just like, oh, whatever. I'm a dancer. I've been taking my clothes off in front of people for years, right? But for the people who super care, they don't want anybody in their dressing room or their bathroom, right? So thinking about it in terms of that and finding out from your cast, from the people that you're working with, like who really needs that privacy and who doesn't? And that's how you do it, not about gender. And again, we already have all these rules. It doesn't matter who's in the room, right? We know what's appropriate and what's inappropriate, right? If anybody's using a camera to record another person or touching a person inappropriately, like we already know that's inappropriate and we can all we already have rules and policies to deal with that, right? But on the flip side, we all know how to behave respectfully and like we're generally a bunch of grownups so we can do that. Generally created spaces for people for whatever reason, you might be uncomfortable, you have a private space. And do you think that's there's a way to to formally ask that maybe even an individual emails to the cast before they begin just checking in on, you know, what sort of level of privacy would you let? I mean, to just ask, I mean, that's okay, right? Yeah, can be part of your intake form. What do you prefer? What's critical for you to feel safe in this environment? Yeah, I mean, I think with a lot of this, it's safer to ask than assume, because assuming is is when you get in trouble. Assuming pronouns, assuming preferences of like bathrooms or dressing rooms or any of that. It's always, you know, the easiest option is just ask, because generally the person is going to respect that a lot more than just being thrown into a situation that they may be uncomfortable with. Yeah, when you ask, it's demonstrating your competency already. So you're creating trust by asking. And that only helps in all of the collaboration of your piece, right? And that is one thing you mentioned to Nick. We're we're all collaborators. When you are in a rehearsal space, we're creating this thing together using our minds and our bodies and our hearts and all of it to make this piece of art. And if anybody feels unwelcome, and if anybody feels unseen, then that's just a link in the tapestry that's going to fray. And the arts, I mean, if you're just thinking cold about it, the arts going to suffer because people don't feel like they're known and being understood by their own team. So, you know, we always have to talk a little bit about resources in this conversation to, you know, I've worked with a lot of spaces that are like, look, we'd love to build an all gender, you know, complex of bathrooms for people, but we just don't have that money. We didn't get that much in our capital campaign or whatever, right? And again, when you go back to asking if you're like, look, this is the situation, we only have this much space, right? Who how who do we need to take care of? And how can we do that? Again, is the beginning of your collaborative process, and it's completely all the way through the work at that point. Yeah. And you just problem solve from there, right? Yep. Anything else about like meeting one another in a space for our imaginary rehearsal? It's pretty good. Thanks, I think. Yeah, I think so. Great. All right. So now we back up to the question of kind of how we got in this room, which is a large topic about casting and who's invited into the space. And yeah, so do you want to, who wants to dive in about that? I guess a part of the reason that I, or I guess one of the jumping off points of my initial email to Lauren was, was partly getting in a very active playwright's thoughts on how to get people into the room. Because so often in casting, it can be frustrating to as a trans performers or non binary actors to be seen for anything other than a trans or non binary character. And it's great that more plays exist with trans characters now than ever before. And it's great that trans actors are being called in for those parts. But there's also other parts that trans people can play. And this idea of like, well, there is, we don't have a trans role this season. So we're not calling you in is to say that we don't think you can do anything else, which I never think is the intention of the organization or the casting director, but it's very much how it reads is that you don't, is that you're not given the opportunity to prove that you can play outside of being trans. And you know, it's really interesting, because when we talk about trans casting, there's always that first argument, right, which is to say actors can be anything, that's the point of its art, it's acting, right. And so if we if we silo our trans actors just into trans parts, you're already not doing it. But even getting to that point, right, is a progression, because until very recently, like maybe just in the last five years, have we come to a place where it's a matter of course now that people if you have a trans role, you look for a trans actor. And that's not I want to just really frame this for people because the frame got taken away from us by conservative forces. It's not a sensorial move, it is not an anti creative move. It's about expansion, right. So trans actors didn't even used to get to play trans parts. That's how deep this goes, right. Okay, so our the whole thing about casting trans actors in trans roles is step one to including trans actors at all in anything. Of course, we want to be able to play a rabbit, right, like or like I would love to play Kurt Cobain, like that's one of my like biggest like dream roles is to play like that my topic, right. Cisgender guy, right. Cisgender by the way, in case anybody's not familiar with the term. I'm transgender. Trans means there was a journey. Cis means on the same size side as so like Lauren, right, you're born assigned female at birth, right, you were a girl felt comfortable with that you're a woman now, no problem, right, on the same side as me assigned female at birth, not comfortable with that transitioned transgender man. Okay, so of course I want to play anything but I just wanted to get into the room in the first place. And so now to get into any room once in a while for one trans role feels awfully reductive as well. So it's about just like letting people in all the way and that's all it was ever about and we are trying to get to that place where anyone can play anything, but we have to equalize the field first. And I mean, this may be a dumb question, but you should be called in for male roles. That's it, right. I mean, I mean, if you think I can do it, I think so. I think that I mean, that's kind of how what I received in your question, which was such a great question because it's so simple and yet people go, and you go, no, it's, you could play a boy, you play man, I mean, that's, it doesn't have to be a trans man or non-binary. I mean, that just narrows. I mean, think about any other actor role if I could only play pink haired from Georgia, you know, live in San Francisco now with two kids, like, there are, come on. Yeah, and I mean, if you think about it, you just tip me off with the two kids thing. The only time we ever really know what sex, what biological sex a person is on stage is if they're showing us their genitals through sex or giving birth, right? Otherwise, I'm showing up, I am a man, I'm living my truth as a man, right? I identify as a non-binary transgender man, like it's a very deep concept, right? It's not the same as some people's more straightforward concepts, right? But I am a man and I'm showing up and if you didn't know that I was in trans and I didn't tell you, you'd have no reason to misunderstand it in any kind of way. So yeah, it is going back to the sense of believing, right? Like, if you believe it, probably your audience will too. I certainly do. Well, and also I think it's about reimagining like the reimagining casting beyond like, you know, those casting notices that are male, female, we need two men, we need three women, that sort of thing. I mean, I did a reading earlier this year where every actor played both male and female roles. And the playwright specified that every character should be played by either female identified or like non-binary, binary, trans-identified actors. That everyone plays men and women, but that no cis men are cast. And that's not to go too much into the play, that's very specific. Yeah, it's more, it has to deal with the context of what the play is talking about. But just the idea that like, in this play, I played both a female character and a male character, neither of which were trans. My roommate who is also in it, who is female, played a female and a male character, like, we're already embracing this expanse of like playing with gender, especially in Shakespeare. And that's part of how I got my start professionally in the Bay Area was with Shakespeare companies, because for some reason Shakespeare is easier to start to play with that. But it's so much beyond that, you can play with gender, you can play with representation outside of just like, and now we've gender-bent Shakespeare play, there's so much more you can do. And I think, I think if we start to break down this idea of what, how specific gender, specifically gendered, that's what I'm looking for, gendered casting has to be, then it opens up so many opportunities for everyone. It's not, I mean, like, yes, hopefully it'll get more trans people in the room, more non-binary people get to play other roles than what they might have been cast in. But it's honestly better for everyone to just open, kind of unlock that and open those doors to reimagine casting completely. I mean, it's interesting when you bring up Shakespeare in that way, because it does, that kind of, everyone is able to play and rethink and reimagine. But I mean, I was going, I was like, could you do it with, who's afraid of Virginia Woolf? Yeah. Could you do it with all my sons? Sure. Yeah. Could you do it with Raisin in the Sun? Yeah, sounds good. That sounds great. Like, you can just, I don't, I don't think there's a play and some, I think, are written, perhaps, I mean, there must be, if there's a rule, you can certainly break it. So there must be plays out there that, that needs some sort of gender specificity, but I don't think there's that many, or certainly it's not all the roles in that play and maybe one role needs to be more specific or the pair or to, if you're talking about a certain kind of, I don't know, something, but it's a really, it's a really cool thing to think about. Like, I think there are certain plays where you could argue that like, maybe the specificity does matter. Like Scott mentioned, if someone gets completely naked on stage, okay, sure. Like, I can understand if someone were to argue that like the vibrator play, as an example, is one where like, maybe they feel that like it changes the context if you have a trans person play that. I don't know, but like, it's not that you have to gender bend everything. I don't mean to say that, it's just we need to sort of unlock the rigidity of male, female, male, male, male, male, female. Right. I mean, even to take the Shakespeare thing all the way back, back in the Shakespeare day, when only assigned male at birth people were allowed to be on stage, right? And assigned male at birth people played women, sometimes playing women who pretended to be men until they were found out to be women, but really the actors assigned male at birth, right? Like that was, now that's an extreme case of gender bias, but nobody said, oh, I don't know, do you think he's believable? You know what I mean? Like, so we can take it back all the way to the most classical origins of our times of our whole industry, right? And see, we've been doing this forever. We just need to get out of our heads about it. And when you put a trans person into any kind of role, in the same way that when we do, or a similar way, it's not the same thing, but in a similar way to when we do color blind casting, right? Which I don't like color blind, we can talk about that. Color conscious. It enriches the story, right? Because it allows your audience to bring whatever they're bringing to it and think about it in whatever way they're thinking about it, which increases their engagement with your work. And that's all we want. It's not confusing. It's not distracting, right? Unless you have a real reason to do it that way that is not based in bias or received notions of gender, then try it. See what happens. Now one last little piece on this too. So I talk about this a lot in Hollywood for casting of like the barista, right? Like kind of general non-gender background roles, right? But I think it totally works for theater, right? If it's just a role that's like teacher or doctor, what's to say what gender that is? And are you working out of a biased place by making the teacher a woman and the doctor a man? Let's just say. So just thinking about it in that way too, and just really, you know, when we diversify the texture of our stage, it's all the better. It's all the more reflective of the life we live in. And certainly for musicals where you have, obviously you have musicals, you have much more ensemble. You have choral people. You have people that are filling the stage and playing, popping in and out of kind of active named roles or not. And that's certainly such an obvious place to, as you say, present life as it is and also give great voice and space to everybody. And yet I find that in my experience, certainly not always, but musical theater is often the most rigid about like, no, we need this many females and this many males, which I find so confusing. Like for some reason it's like musicals are, I don't know, afraid, I guess, of going outside of that. I can't, to be fair, I'm totally just spitballing here. I don't know why that is, but I find it so strange that musical theater is where so much of this rigidity lives. I think a lot of people would would defer to the vocal parts. But all you have to do is look at the trans chorus of LA, which you could Google right now, and you'll find a whole broad spectrum of people who don't look like what their vocal parts should be. Right. And I will say to give a shout out to the O'Neill and to our director Erin Ortman and the project that my composer Ari Afsar and I took to the O'Neill last year as a musical called Jeanette about the first female congressperson in American history. She was elected in 1916. Really cool, like time in history. She elected before the 19th amendment giving women, white women the right to vote. And so it's a play about a lot of that. It's a play about a lot of, you know, purposefully cast with great diversity because, anyway, there's a point in the play where you kind of go, oh, that's why there's all of these amazing people. But we had a non-binary actor in our ensemble, which was an intentional choice to make sure that we expanded what we presumed we needed. And our director Erin Ortman really sought out this wonderful actor. That's a very loud beep. Sorry. And one thing we did was look at the script before we started rehearsal. And we had woman one, man two, woman three, just all throughout the whole script. And it was the realization that why? Why? Why? We don't need to do any of that. So we changed all of the ensemble parts to ensemble number one, ensemble number two, ensemble two, choral one. And it just opens up the entire play for who's singing. And it allows us to go, what sound do we need? Okay, we need more baritone. We know here it's not, we need a man and a woman. We need a sound that we're looking for. We need certain kinds of things. That's just a really easy thing that I didn't even think about until Erin was like, do you mind if we just go in and change everything to ensemble number? And I was like, that's freaking great. I mean, no, I did that. This is awesome. So pro tip. And I think that goes right into the next kind of big structural piece right about the story that we're telling. Yes. So backing up again. So we were at our rehearsal, and then we were getting our casting who was in the room and now discussing how the story is written, what story is written, what stories are allowed to be written and expected. And another part of the email that you sent, Nick talked about this, do you want to kind of kick us off? Sure. I mean, I, so when I teach, when I have taught sketch writing with Killing My Lobster in San Francisco, one of the things we talk about is especially in sketch comedy, you often have, especially like for the Killing My Lobster shows, you have six actors. And there's a variety there. And so especially if you have a character where the gender of the person doesn't matter, it's better to leave it open because you never know who's going to play that part. So I mean, similar to the like doctor-teacher thing, it's like it doesn't have to be a waitress, it can be a server. It, you know, and breaking down because there are only so many actors and you're not necessarily going, you never know how things are going to be distributed based on people's strengths and all of that. And so a fellow writer in San Francisco, Sean Owens and myself kind of co-created this document, which I sent to Lauren about writing above and beyond gender, like kind of breaking down. And I mentioned it a little bit in the casting, but breaking down this idea that like every role has to be assigned male or female, and sometimes just having a character that has a fully fleshed out description of who they are as a person and what their likes and interests are, but not necessarily attaching, they must be X, Y or Z as far as, you know, and sometimes you want to attach those things. If you want to specifically give an opportunity to like a trans actor, for example, you can intentionally make a character trans. Like that can be an active choice. You can intentionally specify a character be female because of this particular experience she talks about, but that breaking down the idea that every character has to be divided into the binary. It was a great document. We should make sure Hal-Ram puts up, puts, lets you put up that as an article because I'd love to share it with everybody. It was really great. And the other thing you talked about too, Nick, was about trans stories. Like if you're going to tell trans stories, making sure that they're not all terribly, terribly sad. Yeah, I believe what I said basically was that all trans stories are not either about coming out or dying because that is sort of the general narrative when it comes to trans stories. It's either the traumatic coming out process and usually in, I mean, often in the produced versions of that, it's very tragic and very emotional and all of that. Or it's about how they, how a trans person can't make it in the world that is set up for them and in the end they die, which is a really unfortunate only two options for most trans stories that are, that get produced, that get a lot of attention. So writing stories about trans people or including trans people that aren't those two topics. 100% and there are so many tropes that we're not even aware of it because we only have tropes. Like if you look, there's a wonderful documentary coming out very soon. It's called Disclosure, Trans Lives on Screen. And I would say this totally relates to theater as well. The stories that we have received about trans people, A, were never written by trans people. And B, it's just trope after trope after trope. If you take the 1987 film The Crying Game, which spoiler alert, don't watch it because it sucks. This guy falls in love with a trans woman, doesn't realize she's a trans woman. When they go to be intimate, he finds out because of her genitals and then he vomits. And then what this amazing documentary does is it shows you all the ways from the Simpsons family guy, Ace Ventura, pet detective, right? Just, it's like five minutes of people vomiting. That became the trope. When you find out trans, you vomit. Yep. I mean, and it's just really unfortunate. Hollywood is a replication machine like that, right? And that's what we do. And that's just one glaring example. There are so many, and that's what I spend most of my time as a script consultant doing is going, okay, I know what you're trying to do with this, and I also know your intent. So let me just tell you, this is actually a trope. And here's how, and there's so many were like fish in water, right? So I got to work on Euphoria, which was heralded the character Hunter, there was called like, the most interesting trans character on television, the future of TV, like these amazing like accolades, when she simply just was being a girl and like she's complicated, she's interesting. But none of that has to do like the trans part is just like one piece of it, you know what I mean? The rest, and people are so amazed by the fact that like a trans character can have just like sort of a regular teenage, bizarre teenage history, right? Like that should tell you where we are right now. Yeah, it's radical to just be and to not be threatened or traumatized or abused. And as with any group, right? It's hard because theater is also a space of metaphor, right? One of the mistakes that I see make people make specifically around gender is to use it as a metaphor, right? And particularly around trans and particularly around non-binary people, like non-binary people are not magic. They have their own magic, but they're not like magic shape shifters, right? Like using that as a that's that's reductive, right? That would be awesome. I mean, yeah, I mean, I would, I'd be down for the record magic shape shifter. I'm okay with that, but no, but not as like a this is what we think of, right? You are are sort of constitutionally, right? If there's a reason to have a magic shape shifter and you want to use a non-binary character or actor, fine, right? But but you see that I'm saying with this, right? That you see people's fantasies of what we are, right? Or that the trans person, you know, one story that we struggle with a lot is for trans men, we've been historically invisible, right? Because for most of us, it's it's for a lot of us, it's very possible to blend in history. So, you know, the story of Billy Tipton, who was a jazz musician, he died in 1989, and that he was sort of a B level famous jazz musician. And no one ever knew he had wives, they adopted children. He was a scout master, right? He was able to live his life as his true gender, right? And people say, Oh, then we get to the lying trope, right? Is it lying if you're living your truth? Really? Right? Right? So we get through all this. And what one of the things that people have brought into this is to say, Oh, well, she never could have made it. So she pretended to be a man in order to have a career. And I just like the obvious retort to that. If it were as easy as putting on pants and changing your name to Jim, there'd be no women. Hi, Hilary Clinton. Hilary's like, right? Like, right, like, there'd be no women. So, so we have this idea that it's somehow like easy that like, I like, I've never really understood the idea that like, Oh, because it, you know, it when I was younger, I remember it was like, Oh, they want to be someone said, like, Oh, they want to be gay for attention. And I was like, do you, like, no, no one would do that. No one would go through everything you have to go through for like, no amount of attention is worth it. And so it's sort of the same thing of like, this isn't, it's not a, it's not a cop out, it's not a, it's not an easy, it's not a path of least resistance. Right? Right? Maybe the one can just say it. And it's tough when you do, when you are different in your gender in whatever way you may be, because gender is one of the very first, it's like, you know, race, gender, physical ability or disability are the first things we see about a person. And they're the first things that we base our impressions on a person. So when somebody is different in their gender, it's very obvious, which is why people think we're attention seeking. But the right seek attention can't stand up to the scrutiny that transgender people face every day. If you're doing it just for like, you know, giggles or whatever, it's not giggle worthy. So those people stop it pretty quickly. Right? Like there are people who do do that. But and back to the like, you know, dressing up as and not really being, which all through history, anytime in history, you've seen someone say, this person lived as a woman, right? That was a trans person. You don't go through all of your life, you don't, you don't become isolated from all of your family and all of your community and live in fear of being discovered, right? Right? For fun. Or for advancement. Yeah, this idea that being trans is a new thing that like has never happened before now is, I mean, is insane. Like there are so many examples throughout history, like hundreds of years ago of people, as Scott said, like living as, you know, not their assigned gender. Those are trans people. Those are like, there's no way someone would do like take that risk. And so, and I think some of those stories are starting to be told. I think that's really exciting. And I think, and I mean, just looping back a little bit to like this idea of like the stories we want to hear and like the narratives that are outside of kind of the everyday life of it. It also comes down to like, it doesn't, not all of these stories have to be written by trans people. I know that I, in my work, try to write trans, some at least trans characters, because I want to create those roles. And, but also, you know, I, I loved what Lauren said in, Lauren, what you said in your class about like, should I write this story? I think there's also that element of like, if I don't want to paraphrase too badly, but like, if, if you don't know anyone in that community to consult, if you've never met a person from a community to consult, whether that's like a person of color or a trans person, then like, maybe that's not your story to write. Yeah. Well, and I will say this is a good chance to talk about, there are people out there like Scott, who do this work, who are cultural consultants, and it's a much wider field now. I've used amazing and generous folks. Also, you pay these people. So just, you know, right off the bat, let's get that clear. And for those of us who, yeah, yeah, everybody should be paid for what they do. But this is, it's a great resource. And it's essential, honestly, if you are a storyteller that is, does not have experience in that life, lifestyle, culture, community, then reach out, find somebody who does, if it's a major part of your story, and then exactly what Nick says, if you're like, who should I, gosh, I don't even know anybody. I don't know anybody who's trans, why are you writing a trans story? Don't do it. Pass the baton, pass the mic. So yeah. And, you know, again, it goes back to what we were saying about casting. It's not about gatekeeping, who can do it. It's about, why aren't there more trans writers who are as cis writers, right? That's, bias has taken an economic tool for the, you know, it's really, it's like, we're only telling this many stories and we could be telling this many, right? So, you know, I have worked with cis writers who, there's a lack of arrogance that comes with it. If you're going to employ a consultant on your story, there's a level of humility where you say, I'm coming to you for your expertise, I'm going to believe you. I'm going to allow it to expand my consciousness, which will expand my creativity. I'm working on a movie right now that I can't wait for you to see. And where we started versus where we are now, thanks to the fact that the white cis heterosexual able-bodied dude bros that I'm working with, okay, were so humble. They listened to me, they asked questions to understand, not to push back, right? And they allowed it to inform their creativity. This is going to be an amazing movie about a trans person written by a cis guy because of the level of allowing in, right, that he did. So, it's totally possible, but we do have to go back to, we have to develop trans artists. Yes, trans writers, trans writers, dramaturgs, everybody, everybody. Yeah, and just adding onto that, your trans consultant should not be the only trans actor in the room. Those cannot be the same people. I have been those two things in many rooms, and it can be so much pressure to be the only voice in the room that can speak to something and also to have sort of, because then you're playing the part of consultant, but you're also, as an actor, you don't have the same authority in the room as like the director or the writer or whoever else. So, it has to be something where you're really willing to take up that space and sort of be the actor that voices the issue. I don't know if I'm saying it exactly right, but just that to be the only voice in the room, to be sort of implied consultant when you're an actor is such a weight to put on the performer, and that even if you just have another, you know, I mean, you should have a consultant ideally, but just having more than one voice in the room can really open the conversation up, can give that person support, can make it feel like an even playing field. Well, and I joke and say, if you have three trans people in a room, you have five opinions. And I also say very seriously to people, you're not just like at a cocktail party and meet someone who's trans and invite them to be your trans consultant. Being a trans consultant is a specific set of expertise. It's an understanding of all the tropes that we talked about of the history of representation. It's an understanding of how to get the representation that you want. It's an understanding of the world into which your story is going and why certain things will go or won't fly in that world. It's a speaking, you speak media, helping people tell their stories, whereas an actor, I'm very lucky. I'm lucky in that I've had the opportunity to develop a lot of those skills because employment discrimination has been what it is and I've had to wear a lot of hats just to survive. If I'd been given the opportunity to just be an actor, I would want to just focus on the actor things. That's a whole specific set of expertise where you're not thinking about all of this other stuff and nor should you have to and nor might you be able to. So relying, assuming the ability of your actor to be the representative for whatever group they might be a part of is not a wise idea for a lot of reasons. And building on that, I don't think I know a lot of trans actors, especially successful, frequently working trans actors that haven't also had to cultivate a lot of that knowledge, that haven't had to also kind of be their own advocate and be their own activist just to get the work. It's a reality of the business is often you sort of have to, you have to become your own activist for your community because otherwise there's no guarantee that someone else is doing it. But by contrast, I'm working with a lot of younger trans actors now who are like, I don't want to be an activist. I'm just an artist, right? And I'm so happy for them that they've been able that like we've done work so that they can get to that place, right? You know, and at the same time, we have to make room for that. I want just an artist, right? I'm happy to do this work, if that means you can do better work as just an artist. That's so great. Let's use that to transition to our kind of last segment, which is I just wanted to ask both of you to talk about theater from a place of joy and love and the moments that you clicked in, why you do this, what made you come to theater, what are the moments that you just are like, oh my God, that was the greatest show or this moment was so beautiful for me as a writer, as an actor, as anything, just to kind of tell us what great theater can be and has been for you. You want to go ahead, Scott? Sure, thanks. Well, I mean, like I said, in the very beginning, I was, I didn't know how to identify myself. I just knew that I was a big freak in a certain way and theater people were just like me in that way, right? That inclusivity, right? That place where people just all, all of them are all of themselves, right? That's so much what I love about theater. And that's what keeps me coming back to it. But what really kept me in it, right? So I had to do solo work because no one would cast me in anything else, right? So I did solo work. And in so doing, I ended up going to a lot of different venues where people saw my work, saw how I needed to be, to be developed and chose to develop me. I owe everything that I have to the generous people. And I saw this reflecting, it reflects in you more. And when this was what you made out of one question from one actor, right, to say, let's develop this, right? Like, let's give a platform, let's enrich this person who's bringing their energy to our craft. And I see that in everybody, almost everybody, 98% of everybody I work with in the American theater, right, has that reflex. And so that's what really keeps me staying. And what I think if it keeps happening is what's going to keep us relevant, what's going to keep us growing, what's going to keep this human reflex to tell our freakish stories, right? You know, it's going to keep it at the center of entertainment, right? And for me, I mean, I grew up a theater kid. My mom was a professional actress back in the day. I grew up seeing her in shows. I grew up doing musical theater and plays. And it sort of never occurred to me to do anything else. So I have mom to thank for that. Thanks, mom. But I think what kept me, or I guess what keeps bringing me back, it started with this feeling of like getting to be someone else. I think for a lot of my youth, I didn't really feel comfortable in my own skin. So getting to play another character was a very freeing feeling. Getting to be outside of myself was something that I couldn't go very long without. And so I think for a lot of my youth, it was that. And then as I became more comfortable with myself, it became actually wanting to be myself on stage, actually wanting to be able to show a piece of who I actually am and bring that to roles. And then the playwriting element of it like telling has always been telling stories that aren't what I see, that don't feel like what I think is words. I'm a writer. I think the thing that always keeps me coming back to writing is telling stories that I want to see, that I haven't seen, or that are very true to like my own little piece of the world and my own perspective. And just wanting to, and now, I mean now more than when I started playwriting back before I moved to California, it's about creating parts and telling stories that feel very true to the community, like the greater transqueer community and wanting elements of those stories not tragic often to be out in the world. That's awesome. Thank you for sharing that. And now just because I know we'll get a lot of questions about it. What's on your docket? What's upcoming? What are you excited about working on? You told us a little bit Scott, but tell us some more. And again, you can find the contacts and kind of a bunch of resources in the kind of description of this stream, but tell us what's upcoming? What are you working on? I wrote a play. I haven't written a play in like 10 years, and I wrote a play in January back when, remember when we were like just worried about climate change? I remember those days of old. Yeah, I wrote a play that I really liked and so I'm developing that. And my wife is working on another piece about climate change that's a musical that she's now shifting into podcast form. Cool. Yeah, so I'm helping her with that. And so yeah, I'm excited to get back into like theater or whatever that means for us now. And then when TV and film come back, we've got some other cool projects going on there too. Great. What about you, Nick? What's up? Well, the last two weeks, I've been doing a show with a company called the Queer Cats, which are based out of San Francisco, and it is a Zoom theater experience. There was an article in the SF Chronicle about it. It's a strange new world of theater in the digital age or in the quarantine situation, however you want to think about it. So I've been doing that. We had a show the last two Thursdays. We have one more scheduled this upcoming Thursday. You can find more information about that. The easiest way is just look up Queer Cats because that's the company and Zoom theater. And then the other strange delightful thing that I've been doing while in quarantine is still doing drag performance. I have a drag persona. His name is Chester Vanderbox. And I've been doing, I've done a couple drag shows. It's still something that a lot of we're all figuring out. Most of them have been on Instagram live, but it seems that slowly digital drag is moving over toward Twitch. So I think I've done two Instagram shows. I think the next one I'm doing is on Twitch. We'll see. It's a strange new adventure of how to perform against a camera. And then, I mean, I'm doing writing stuff, but none of that is going any has any plans yet. As the world is in a strange situation. Well, as mad as I am about this pandemic, what a fabulous excuse to get together to learn from you both, to share your wisdom and energy and spirit with the world. And I hope it's not the first or the last time. I hope it's what is the first time, not the last time. Yeah. And we'll see you on all the ways that we can see you. And I'll hopefully convince these two amazing folks to respond to some comments if you all have some questions. And yeah, we'll see you. Let's do this again. There's always more to talk about. Absolutely. Thanks for making the space. Thanks for our making, right? I'm excited about all the things that you've got coming up on this medium. There's a lot upcoming some more. And yes, a lot of classes upcoming in all manner of things. And every day there's something else that occurs to someone. So yes, that's the last pitch. Nick made this whole thing happen with a fabulous question and a great topic that needed to be talked about. And your class, the question wouldn't have happened if you hadn't started a playwriting class. So just point the camera, turn it on and good luck. But if anybody's out there and has anything else that you want to talk about or some sector of theater, something, let's make it happen. Why not? As long as the Wi-Fi works, we're good. All right. Thank you both so much. Let's stay in touch and stay safe, everybody. Thank you.