 Mm-hmm. What's going on, you guys? Right, Jarazi here. Thank you so much for joining me. This is my very special guest, Karl Schmidt. Well, you should all know if you don't. From... Nothing. Keep introducing me. I want to hear the adulation, the admiration. Yeah. So, Karl is a very good friend of mine. Have a sit. Get going. Way back. Way back. Having a little kiki here. We are having a kiki. And Karl is the genius mind behind Plus Life Media. Do you know what, thank you. Do you know what I would like you to do? I'd like you to take this footage and then I want you to find the last video we did together, sitting on a sofa. I'm gonna... And do a side-by-side comparison. I think I was sitting on that... I don't want to do that. Why? Why? Why don't you do that? They'll be like, was this one shot with a white angle and the other one was it? Well, that's something we can talk about over the next few minutes. But it's interesting because we haven't done this since we sat in my studio apartment on a sofa that I ended up having. And now here we are on a much more luxurious sofa in a much more luxurious apartment that is yours on the 25th floor and Bose. And then celebrating all the success you've had. Look at this place. It's beautiful. It really is. I love it. It's my little heaven. How important is it to have a little heaven like this? For me, yeah. Being an introvert, it's critical. Is it hard to leave? Yeah. I will spend days here not having left. Sounds like heaven. All right. What do you want to talk to me about? I'm here. I've got, well, I'm trying to sit up straight to hide myself. Last time we chatted, we talked a lot about that old commercial. Oh, yes. That's right. The Grim Reaper. And I will put up a card. So if you want to watch that video from years ago. From 1987. Yes. Oh, that video. The commercial, not us. Then yeah, watch that. Otherwise, that's all we really, well, we got into some things, but we never talked about you or your life or your story. It's because it's not that exciting. No, it's fine. My life, my story. Well, I grew up in Australia until I was 10. And then from the age of 10, I moved all over the world. I lived in Fiji and New Zealand and England and here. And I'm grateful for that because, you know, when you're, when you're a kid in a teenage year, like, you're making me move again and you don't like it. But what it did was it forced me to, you know, make new friends and also be very open-minded about things, you know, different cultures and experiences. And when I lived in Fiji, I went to an international school. And so all my classmates were, you know, from every part of the world, they were Dutch, they were Fijian, they were Samoan, they were from America, they were Indian. Like, so, you know, there was never just a sort of a one-size-fits-all kind of thing. And how I now look back on that, fast forward to today and being someone living with HIV and living here in the United States, it just makes you appreciate and realize and celebrate what makes everyone different and unique. Kind of, you know, brings us all together as well. And so, which these days is hard to find. Which these days is really hard to find, unless you're on the DL, which as you know, you can't say that anymore. No, that was an inside joke. But anyway, so I grew up all over the place. But interestingly, here in Los Angeles, this is the longest I've ever lived anywhere in my entire life. And it's coming up 15 years. Do you love it? I don't know whether love it is the right term. It's, I will say this, it is home. And my judges for that is often like when I travel. Like, I know when I used to live in England, right? And I love London. But I would be landing into London after having been away and I'd look out the plane window and I would just sort of get in my stomach. When I land, when the plane circles out the right over your apartment and look back to LAX, and I look out the window now here, I go, I'm home. And that's a really nice feeling, a sense of belonging in that sense. The people are interesting, but do you see yourself settling down here? For now, yeah. Look, it depends. My parents got older, you know, my parents are in Australia, and, but I have a brother who lives here in the States. So this family here, yeah, for now, I mean, I'm a US citizen these days, as are you. I don't think either of us were US citizens when we left. That's funny. Yeah. I became a citizen when Trump was. Yeah, I did too, but I didn't want I didn't do I actually held off doing the ceremony. Yeah, I held off. Well, no, I qualified because this is a thrilling conversation for you to listen to. But you have to have a green card for like five years, right? And then after five years, you can become a US citizen. So my five years came up during Trump, but I waited until he was gone. And then said, I will go and be sworn in. I didn't want to be sworn in as a US citizen under Trump. But that's not what we're here to talk about. So you came to the US. And is this where you were diagnosed? No, I was diagnosed in England. And actually, I, which meant that coming into the US was a little tricky at the time because there were still rules and regulations about communicable diseases. That being said, I came in and I started treatment here. So when I was diagnosed in England 15 years ago, or thereabouts, it was very different to how they do things here in the States. It's the same now. But back then, if you were diagnosed with HIV and your CD4 count was high and you were healthy and robust and all of that, then they didn't put you on meds straight away. It was kind of like, look, your body's doing what it's meant to do. It's doing a great job. We don't need to introduce this until... Well, wait, until HIV damage your body? Well, yeah, until it, well, yes. I mean, I know those were not the exact words, but yes, until it gets to a point where it can start to really have a risk. Yeah. And I think that the reason, reasoning behind that is that the medication itself was toxic. Yeah. And it's certain we've come a long way in the last 15 years. Yeah, it was. So, but when I got here, I remember going and I have no problem calling them out for it because it was disgusting behavior. I was at the LA Gay and Lesbian Center in Hollywood and they assigned me a doctor and this horrible little man, I was sitting in one of those rooms in a hallway, you know, like the curtains. So, it's like little consultancy rooms down a hallway. Yeah. So, other patients, you can hear kind of what's going on. Yeah. And this little man came in and read me the riot act for not being on medicine. And I said, well, hang on, you have to understand, I get my primary treatment is in the UK. And at this point, I was commuting back to England four times a year. So, whenever I went back to England, I saw my primary care physicians and did everything there. Yeah. And this man yelled at me. I mean, yelled at me. Can you explain what the riot act is? Oh, read me the riot act. Sorry, the riot act is like if someone yells at you, gives you a lecture. Oh, it's the same. It's an expression. No, no, no, no. Sorry. So, he yelled at me and said, basically, the language he used was well, you're going to die of AIDS if you keep doing this. You know, you obviously don't care that you're just going to let yourself die of AIDS. And I remember leaving and sitting in my car and bursting into tears. Because up into that point, I had lived for however many years without the meds. I mean, I knew I was HIV positive. This is pre you equals you being the go to, by the way, undetectably pre crap as well. Yeah, pre all of that. So, so I sort of lived like HIV was there, but it wasn't there because I didn't really have to do anything about it. Anyway, it wasn't until fast forward a few years, literally a few years later, and they discovered Kaposi sarcoma on me in a not so attractive place. Yeah. Well, it was not in a let's just say it was internal and not somewhere you typically go looking. It's amazing they found it. Well, yeah, they were checking me out for something else. And that's when it got real. And then that's when I got on the meds. But the sort of the irresponsibility of all of this is that then clearly for a period of time, I was more than just detectable. You know, and I was having sex with people. And sometimes they, you know, I would disclose my status and sometimes they wouldn't be a condom. So I was there was certainly risk factors. And anyway, needless to say, I got on meds, became undetectable very quickly, and have been a sense. And now I'm happy to say that in the UK and most countries, we know that the practice is uniform, your diagnosed, get on treatment, get undetectable. That being said, I just got back from Japan. And we're trying to do some work in Japan at the moment, because you equals you undetectable equals untransmittable only really works as a thing if people can get access and become undetectable. It's all good and well saying undetectable equals other. And it is. I mean, it's a game changer, but it only works if we can get everyone undetectable. And Japan still has this rule where you can't even get access to the HIV medicine until your body becomes so compromised. So the medicine treatment in Japan is free. But you don't get access to that medicine until you're in quite a bad situation. And then it's fine. So that so that like the whole point of you equals you, you might as well throw out the window in Japan. So we're trying to change that. And other countries around the world, but that is still the thing. That's our that's kind of our new calling, I guess. We're saying you equals you is a win-win, right? If I'm undetectable, then there's no risk to you. But beyond that, I'm putting less of a burden on the healthcare system. If you think about all of it, it really is a win-win. I'm healthy. You're healthy. Therefore, you're not having to take care of me in the system. So they win. And we're really pivoting away from the original you equals you would say, we have to get everybody access to this medicine. There's no excuse and no reason why people shouldn't get. And the epidemic can be stopped. We can stop the whole thing can be stopped right now. It's interesting when we talk about that. And I saw that the president and you know, other people have been making these great statements at about, you know, we all want to end HIV by 2030, right? So that's seven years or less. It's coming up. So if we know what we have to do, why do we still have criminalization laws? Like if everyone goes, we want this to end. And if we know that if you decriminalize HIV, there's one whole chunk that we've taken care of. And if you get everyone the medicine, there's the other thing. Like I don't understand why this stuff gets held up. We also want to stop it. Yet we're still putting people like you and I in prison for no reason. Even if there's no intent and we know that we can't transmit the virus, you and I can still be locked up in 30 states in this country. We can be sent to jail simply for not telling the other, I mean, the other consenting adult that we have HIV. It doesn't even matter if there was malicious intent or not. And it doesn't even have to be proved. They don't even have to prove it. Their word against yours. So you could be an angry bitter ex about something and go, fuck you. I'm sorry. I'm going to go and do this. And that's it. And you have to register as a sex offender. Well, not only is it just the criminalization that already exists, but now we're going to in a state where we're starting to roll back. Which is very scary. Well, I think that's got a lot to do with these politicians. You know, for so long, it's been a perfect box, right? And in the last 10, 15 years, we have Gen Z and millennials pushing through saying, actually, I'm not a him. And I'm not a her. I'm a this. And as LGBTQIAP plus people now become more acceptable, this box that society has so comfortably and safely lived in is starting to warp, right? And the walls are starting to go. And these people who are mostly cisgendered white men of a certain age don't want anything that's going to challenge the norm. I think the reality is in 15, 20 years, that box will not exist anymore. We'll have broken through it. And they have to realize that this new generation of people that God feels safe and comfortable enough to be who they truly are. And part of it is birthing pains in my perspective, because we we start to explore what gender fluidity is, intersectional sexuality of sex and all of it. And we push out, push out, push out, push out. And then we get these extremes. And extremes on the margin, that's what's publicized, that's what's put in the media. That's what commentators talk about. It doesn't necessarily represent the majority of us. And it might not be something that even really matters all that much in 10 years from now. But it's as we're growing and learning and discovering, figuring out what's what, pushing the walled out, it goes to the extreme, then it eventually contracts a bit. It's like this pendulum swing from conservative to progressive. Right. How important do you think it is? And let's just use the HIV space to have people who are living with HIV being part of the policy making and changing, that people who are having lived experiences are the ones at the highest level who go, actually, this is right, but that's right. Versus what we typically have now, which as I said, is mostly cisgendered white straight men in their late 60s, 70s, early 80s, who get to make the decisions for everybody. Yeah, I mean, anything that has to do with any portion of the population should have representatives from that, because they're going to know they have a lived experience. And they're going to know things and understand things that, even if you're trying to think logically about things, you're not going to know from right anecdotal situation. Like I get mad, I would get annoyed, I shouldn't say mad, I'd get irritated, it's probably better when you can be mad. When a certain, you know, national broadcaster that I sometimes associate with would do all these great things around a talk of LA or World AIDS Day and they produce this stuff. And I should say, this was the case, it's not the case anymore, because I've said something, but they would produce all this stuff. And I'd see it on the air and I'd say, who wrote that? It's not, you come and they'd go, Oh, well, we just got off. And I said, well, did anyone think to come and talk to the one person in the building who's living with HIV? I would have happily shared some experience with you. And that was the beginning. I'm very happy to say now that it's not the case there that whenever stuff like that we put stuff out like that, you know, and we have great connections with other HIV organizations around Los Angeles, things get very carefully looked at. But you know, the fact that I said, you've got someone living in your building with you all, and you're ignoring it. So I think it's really important that people like us have a voice at those higher levels. To me, it's obvious. But a lot of common sense stuff is obvious. And a lot of the people in this country don't know. So, okay, yeah, take me back a little bit. Okay. At what point did you go from living your life? Now you're on night, you're undetectable to, Hey, I want to talk about it was it was an accident. It wasn't really I know I was I wasn't in the closet about my HIV status, people knew about it. I mean, you knew about it. But I wasn't public in my professional persona. Yeah. So that was a scary idea of sharing that. Well, because it wasn't a calculated share, it was almost an accidental share. I didn't have much thought in it. I'd hesitated doing it. I had purposely sort of, you know, I was not in the closet about my HIV status as far as friends and family and partners. But professionally, I was because I work in television. And a lot of very well many people had said to me, you don't want to become known as the guy with AIDS on television. And, you know, I sort of listened to that. And I thought, yeah, and I also thought, well, my HIV diagnosis and me living with HIV doesn't affect how I do my job. Like it is so really why talk about it? I mean, there's no real reason to talk about it. But I hope that one day maybe somehow that I'll find more of a reason and I can talk about it and not worry about consequences. And then one day after a couple of cocktails, I wrote something on social media and went to bed and didn't think about it. And the next day it had completely changed because it went viral and went everywhere. So there wasn't a calculated thought about it. And once it had happened, it was like, well, I can't put that back in the box. So I got to roll with it. So do you have a moment where like, I don't know how this is going to affect my career? No, I had a moment of fear that that my primary employer at the time would think that I had done this as some kind of publicity get. So my concern was that they would think, oh, he's gone kind of rogue. And to be honest, I just hadn't thought about it. So it wasn't the case. And thankfully, they were all very supportive. So it wasn't so much of a problem. And, you know, I got asked the other day, do I think it's affected my career? And the answer is, I don't know, right? And it's certainly to my face with the exception of one person, everyone's being very supportive. But I don't know what people say behind the conference from your office or in private emails. So maybe people do go, oh, he's a little too vocal in that space. It's different than it used to be. If you were to come out either as gay, or HIV positive, being pigeonholed, I've heard that before too. As far as like, being an influencer and doing content, like, you don't want to be known as the HIV guy. You're so much more than that. You're so much bigger than that. That all may be true. But why should that hold me back from going? Well, and why not? And why exactly? And why not? And I will tell you this, I mean, there are several public figures now in this country who are openly HIV positive. And, you know, I don't have a problem. Billy Porter publicly said it and told me, I knew before he came out, he said, because of you, I can do this. And he said it since. And there have been other people. I think if you look at Jonathan Van Ness and other people in queer culture who have now felt comfortable to say it, I think someone always has to start. I didn't intentionally start. But I think you're able to go, well, it didn't go so bad for him. So maybe it'll be okay to me. I know of at least two other very well known eye profile celebrity people who are desperate to talk about him, but just still don't quite have the right voice for it yet. And it was the best thing ever because to your point, yeah, I don't mind being known as the guy, quote unquote, with AIDS. I don't have AIDS, by the way. Did you ever? No, you did. I know your situation. Well, no, see, now I had this conversation with a doctor on a podcast just this week, because I had a guest on Plus Live who got really mad at me. We were doing an episode about being older and living with HIV. And he'd come after me on Twitter, actually. And that's why I booked him on the show to talk about it. Okay, because he's like, you keep talking about HIV and HIV, but what about those of us with AIDS? And my understanding was, you know, you sort of AIDS is a symptom of HIV, right? Once, once if you're if the HIV has had such a good time wrecking your body, the next stage is acquire them, you know, deficiency syndrome. It's a it's a stage of HIV. And that is that, you know, something as simple as a cold, or, you know, a very minor thing that most of us would be completely okay with and deal with, that can kind of knock you down and take you out. But this man said, I was diagnosed with AIDS. And so I have AIDS. And then I had another long-term HIV survivor. So what was his issue that you weren't talking about the experience of living with HIV? Well, I wasn't we were just referring to HIV positive people, not people with AIDS. And I'm like, but you're still alive. And but I said, but you're not. I said, what are you? Are you undetectable? And he said, yes. I said, you don't have AIDS anymore. And so to this week, I asked the same question to a doctor. And I said, help me understand. And he said, well, it's about language and things have changed. Back then, yes, you got an AIDS diagnosis. So it was on your medical chart, you had AIDS. But the reality is that if you become through treatment, undetectable again, and everything, you're a person living with HIV, you're not someone who has AIDS. Right. Yeah. But from a medical standpoint, at some point, you you were diagnosed with, I guess, AIDS related. So I'm always considered AIDS. Are you diagnosed? Yeah. That's why I was told from just from a strictly medical perspective, which I think you think that still stands. Ask your doctor if you have. Yeah. Interesting. It's not I don't think that's helpful in the narrative. And I don't think it's reflective of any kind of. Because you don't walk around saying I have AIDS, do you? Nor does it reflect my health. But do you do you say, Hi, I'm Rafe Derraze and I have AIDS. No, I think that would be misleading to say that. Correct. But your AIDS diagnosed. I disagree with saying that you referring to people living with HIV is exclusive of people who are living with AIDS or AIDS diagnosed, how it whichever bucket you fit into. Right. It's like saying, you're referring, you're talking about human beings. Yeah. And because you didn't mention Europeans, right? Then you're leaving them out. Listen, you are following the water category of humans. Well, we're all very sensitive. I know. As I constant as I seem to discover a lot. And I think we just all need to just button up a little bit and not be so trigger Yeah, I would agree with you on that. Because it's not it's not contributing to the overall important. And I think, you know, look, there's a lot of there. Sadly, I think there is a lot to be angry about these days. But on the flip side, there's also a lot to be grateful for these days and optimistic about these days, especially when you look at HIV and where we're at. Yeah, look, it's true. Rates are climbing in parts of this country and around the world. We know about disparity. We know that there just isn't a fair level playing field when it comes to access and treatment and all of that. The flip side is we have, as I said earlier, all these tools and the medicine to stop all this. The question is, how do you get everyone on the same page? And that, I think, is the biggest struggle we've had from day one with this. Uganda just passed. Uganda just passed. This is reaffirming what they are already. Yeah, well, and you have to understand a lot of the African nations, Ghana, a lot of them have these horrible laws in place. What's interesting, I think, in most of sub-Saharan Africa, and we're talking specifically about anti-LGBT legislation. And I should say this is also the case in places like India. HIV infection rates are higher, actually, amongst heterosexual people than they are gay people. So I think, yeah, and so when we look at in the Western world and countries like the United States or England or Australia, it's predominantly HIV has been seen as a white gay man's thing. Whereas in sub-Saharan Africa and places like India and all of those countries, that's not been the case. It's largely because of the laws, right? So we don't talk about gay people. So they're in the closet, so we don't really know. But most of what we see is straight people. But what this does, this ridiculous law in Uganda that says that you can be punished by death for being gay just further puts everyone back in the closet and stops talking about things. And I was asked to finish the sentence the other day, which was the end of the HIV epidemic looks like. And I had to finish it. And that was four of us sitting around the table and I said, looks like this. People talking about HIV and not being afraid of it. Yeah. My cynical mind, you said a long shot. But we can't be there. And the reason I say that is not because it depends on what day you ask. Yeah. It's because it's HIV is so much more than just the virus. It's social. It's class. It's politics. It's all of it. So in order to solve that, you have to solve this huge comprehensive. Well, I say it all the time, HIV won't kill you, but stigma will. And that's the biggest hurdle right now is the stigma and the misinformation that is still out there. I've said this to you before. I've said this a thousand times, right? If you see a can of Coca Cola, you know what it is. Dug it. Whatever. If you see, you know, we know what a McDonald's French fry is. We know what, you know, if you hear the slogan, just do it, you know, it's Nike shoes, right? You know all this without and without really having much of a grasp of what goes into the French fry or what's in the Coca Cola or you just know it because we know and we need to get HIV to a stage where it doesn't matter if you're black or white or Asian or rich or poor or whatever, Catholic or Muslim, you know what it is. Oh, that's HIV. I know what it is. And you know what it is. We don't have that and it needs to be literally as simplified as that. Oh, that's what that is. I know what it is. But that's where we have to get the people. And I think it will take a very smart marketing person and agency to come up with a campaign that doesn't just speak to gay white men, doesn't just speak to people of color in the South here, but is universally, instantly recognizable that you go, that's what that is. I was going to say, you're talking about branding. Yeah, it's exactly. We need to kind of brand it like, you know, any other mass consumer kind of item, because although it's not something you sort of drink or consume, HIV can consume you. It's part of our world. And I think we have to sort of approach it more like that than just say undetectably equals untransmitable, take your meds. But I think shows like plus life are contributing to that narrative. I hope so. I mean, that's why we created it. The point. Yeah, it's yes, it's about HIV, but it's about living your best life. As the cease living with HIV, as the author, George M. Jung said in his book, you know, it's often very difficult to, to like and accept yourself when you don't see other people like being celebrated and thriving. And so that's why we created plus life is to show everybody, no matter where you're from, what color your skin is, who you pray to, what, how you identify, that, you know, this is just a part of me and look how great every other part of me is. And that's what we do with it. And that's, you know, why you're there as our fitness guru. And, you know, we have a great team of people to just celebrate that. Yeah, I've got HIV, but look, look at everything else I can do. I think it's really important. And that's, you know, part of why we sit and have these conversations on your lovely leather sofa. Isn't it so cool if your dog over here, so it's plush. It is plush. What's going on? Are you, you, you are our health and fitness guru. How are you feeling about your health and fitness? Well, I have, I mean, as most of you who follow me know, I've been struggling with my weight. It's hard, right? 2019. I was like 160 pounds coming off of competing. I'm now 195. Yeah. Ish. I got as high as 210. I was, I'm 210. Okay. I stood on the scale today and I used to be 180. It's really hard. Oh, yeah. How do you stay positive and keep going? Because it is a, it's a struggle. How do you maintain your kind of outlook to keep pushing yourself? And do you, do you want to get back to that? Do you want to be bodybuilder Raif again? Yeah, I do. Yeah, I really do. I'm hungry for that. And I would say what I tell people lately is that I, I'm not Mr. Optimistic, hopeful, you know, spring chicken shot all the time. I'm not. It's true. He's not. My, my close friends know that I'm like a cynical, sassy, all clean. But the goal is that when you're feeling good about yourself, you have routine and you have processes in place that are going to support that and prop it up for as long as possible. And then when you inevitably, when I inevitably have my down, down moments and my down days and my down weeks sometimes, that I lessen the degree of that fall as much as possible. So it's all about kind of a balancing act. Yes. And supporting the positive and minimizing the negative. It's not about preventing either because they're both, it's just going to happen. That's natural. It's going to happen. So yeah. And the only way to do that, because you can't just suddenly start to fall into a depression or start to feel bad about yourself or whatever, and just be like, Oh, I'm going to do this thing. It's going to, I'm going to start gratitude journaling and I'm going to, and I'm going to, you know, talk to myself in the mirror and do affirmations. Right. You don't, your brain doesn't help you in those moments to think about constructive positive things. So that means when you are in a, in a place where you can think about those things and form habits and routines, that's when you have to do it so that when you do have a negative time, those things are already in place. It's like, you're going through your day and you have your routine that you do and those things are going to help you because you solidified that in the good times. I always say, I think it's really important to recognize that it's okay not to have a good day. I think it's so important because we, again, in this age of social media that we live in and, you know, everything's curated and we, and you know, we all do it. We put the best of ourselves out there because why would you ever put the worst of yourself out there? It's not that pretty. So we live in this sort of fast paced consumer world where everything we see, whether it's on our social media or even television, everyone's happy all the time. And we're constantly told to strive for happiness. That is the goal is to, you know, is to never be negative. I'm not a negative person. Well, guess what? Sometimes shit happens and it's okay to be negative. It's okay to sit there and go, fuck this, I don't want to do it anymore and throw a tantrum. It's okay. It's important though what, what is the most important part is once you've had your tantrum and thrown your toys out of the pram or whatever is that you say, okay, now I've solved a tantrum. How do I get up? I think it's how you get up that determines much to your point of talking about the fitness thing, which is what you say, how far you fall down in the mud the next time. But I think it's important to allow ourselves to feel the full range of emotions. And I think especially for those of us living with HIV, it's really important because we've been constantly being barraged with life is great, life is beautiful. And it is, it's all of those things, but sometimes it's not and sometimes it's hard. And it's okay because I think we said we're setting ourselves up for failure so often now because we go, oh shit, look at everyone else so happy and so great, or so in shape and so and I'm not. And it seems no matter what I do, I can't get there like everyone else. What we don't realize that everybody else is having exactly the same feeling as we are. And that's why I'm sort of glad that I'm kind of going through this phase of my life with my followers and social media. Do you have a name for your followers that they like the derasians? I haven't come up with my name. Derasians? You'll be my thrivers. That sounds like a mussel. I have a telegram group that I've put together called Threatening Fam. That's very Tamren, the whole Tam Fam. Yeah, she has the Tam Fam. Yeah, she does. So and because we're social creatures by nature, it's also important not just to feel the way that we feel, but it's also important to communicate it, to declare it. Because a lot of us feel, we might say, okay, I'm having a down day of feeling depressed. But I can't talk about it. But I can't talk about it. I accept it, but I'm not going to share it with anybody. Well, and we also have to be better friends with each other because I think sometimes I look at these sort of my circle of friends and you know, you just hate them. No, I don't sometimes. But they hate me. But I think, you know, there's nothing works, right, at least for me anyway, when you're feeling down and not great. And you sort of, you let someone know and you go, I'm just sick of it all today. I find there's nothing worse than someone going, what do you have to be upset about? Look at your life. Look how fabulous it is. Look at you. You look where you live. And you just go, it just makes you feel like shit even more because you go, great. Yeah, I have this great life. What's wrong with me? What's wrong with me? Why can't I be happy? Look, and I come to you as my friend to say, I'm having a bad day. Can you just let me bitch and moan? And instead you're saying, what? Why? Look how great your life is. Oh, great. I'm such a fucking loser. I can't even be happy with what I've got. It just makes me feel worse. Yeah. I think we have the tendency as friends and loved ones. We're trying to pick, but let me tell you, that doesn't always work. A depressed person doesn't need to be reminded of how good they've got it when they are not feeling good about themselves. I think it's, I know what we're trying to do and it's a nice intention, but just don't. And when we're communicating, it's not necessarily that I need an answer from you. No, they just need you to listen. I just need you to hear it and to understand where I'm at. I agree. And that alone, that is like healing. Yeah. And you go, you know, I was with a very good friend of mine just yesterday and, you know, everything that kept coming out of their mouth was negative. I'm broken. I can't. I can't. I can't. And I went, okay, well, then that's fine. And it's sort of like, get it off your chest. And then I said, instead of saying, you know, I can't, maybe a shift would be, I'm struggling with because can't is so definitive. But if you're struggling with, well, then how can we get over that struggle? Because I think if you say, I can't, or I'm broken, or I'm this, and I'm guilty of it too, it's, it's, it's a closed book. And it's okay to let all that out. But I think, you know, I think the helpful way is to go, okay, but what if instead of can't, it was, you know, this is really, I'm not ready. I don't want to. I don't want to. I say I don't want to. That's often the case. I don't want to. Yes. I say yes. And then the minute I say yes, I go, I say yes. Yeah. What, what is your, what is your goal? And you mentioned a little bit about pivoting with you equals you. But overall, like, what, where do you see plus life going, growing into? And what, at what point do you say I've achieved fundamentally what I set up to do? What's next? Well, that's an interesting question for me, because I think part of my, the work I constantly have to do on myself is that I feel nothing I ever do is good enough. Come on. And so, and that's a double-edged sword, right? Because it means you're constantly kind of overly criticizing yourself, but it also continually pushes you. So I don't set it. So I think with plus life, you know, we set out to create something that was sort of a beacon for people who were newly diagnosed to look at and go, wow, it doesn't have to be all bad. But it was also created to educate and inform people who think that HIV has nothing to do with them. I can't, I get asked a lot by people, okay, so who's your demographic for plus life? And I say everybody. And the number of people at big corporations who have said, well, no, that you have to, no, you've got to have a demographic. And so my demographic is everybody. And then I go, who's demographic, HIV, what's the demographic for HIV? And they go, well, okay. And yeah, I said, but HIV can affect anybody. And it does. And it may not be direct, you know, it might be that, you know, I'm living with HIV, you know, but it's had an impact on my art, for example, that I don't know about. So we've created and we continue to evolve and create this space that is a resource for people to see what HIV really looks like in this day and age. An opportunity for people to share their stories and their voices and their experiences. And yeah, and I think by shared experiences, you know, it just gives an opportunity for people to see the reality and to learn. So I'd like us to just keep doing what we're doing. I'd like us to have a bigger reach. Plus life has always been in my mind, something that's very mainstream, it's not niche. It's, you know, we talk about science and we talk about all of that, but we do it and communicate it in a way that is easy, I hope to digest. I look, I put myself as the audience. You're much better than this at me than me because I've seen when you go to your doctor's appointments and you talk quite, you know, you have a real interest, whereas I go in and I'm like, am I undetectable? And is there anything I need to know? Because they start rattling off all this stuff to me and I don't know what it means. And I'm not saying this is the right thing, it's probably immature on my part, but I'm like, it's too much. It's too much. And for most people it should be there. Yeah, just quick, simple, to the point, move on with your life. And that's what it is. So that's what I hope that we can continue to keep doing and just making it as sort of this mainstream thing. And there are a lot of other great organizations out there that are doing the same work. And so we just want to keep collaborating with folks like that and people like yourself. And because I'm of the belief that we're in this together, right? And collaboration is key. I had someone come up to me once in New York from a publication and they shook my hand and they said, it's so nice to meet you, I know where the competition. And I looked and I said, what do you mean? And he said, well, you know, and I said, please, I said, oh my God, is that how you see us? Please don't see us as the competition. It's not with this is a collaborative effort. If you're doing good, I'm doing good. And we're doing good work together. It's not zero sum. Correct. You don't have to lose. But there are a lot of activists out there now, right? Whose egos have become ridiculous. And they're making it about themselves. And I take an issue with that. It reminds me of Eckhart Tolay when he talks about the pain body. Look at you being all all smart with pulling out. You know Eckhart, do I? Am I? He's the he's the little is he bald? I don't know. He's the little bald guy. He's the little white man. He's very like, okay, you can edit this bit out. I don't think Eckhart sees this he wants to be done. I'm not gonna edit this out. Eckhart, you know that you're a little short. He's an ego and he has released his ego. So it's so important because I mean, I know of a couple of people, you and I had some experiences, but we were in my trailer, the source of behavior that I just went, what are you doing? You stop it. Not you personally. I said, we there are some people out there and drives me nuts. We identify and I don't mean us, but the larger we with our pain and our trauma and that becomes indicative of who we are and our narrative that we tell ourselves and then we tell everybody else. So all these people who are activists and even fighting for so long, they identify with this trauma that they've been through and they are operating from that space into the world. And so it's guards up guns out territory and it's doesn't we have well, it doesn't help anybody. And I see that not just in people living with HIV, I don't know what you agree with you about racism. It's in every aspect of society. Everybody has their root, long extended pain and they're carrying that with them and it's informing the way that they go out to the world and we're all butting heads because we all have our own pain and we all are justified in that pain. And our ego says, I am victimized and I need to be and I need to be compensated and I need to be addressed. Yes. And I need to be recognized. Yeah. And that and that's so it's not helpful. It's not helpful. But I and I think it's, yeah, well, bless I say on this the better because I'll end up getting myself in trouble. We'll keep it on the deal. We'll keep it on the careful. This has been nice. It has been nice. We should do it again. We should do it kind of like every couple of years on a new calendar. Let's see what our bodies look like in a few years. I can't wait for this side by side because I was well, I was 30 pounds lighter when we did the last one. I know that likewise. Yeah, by Ben AI will have taken over and we'll just look, we'll have, I want legs. I'm glad I championed for legs for you people because didn't I say something about that AI stuff you did? I'm like, why don't people have legs? Oh, that's that's metaverse. Yeah, sorry. Well, whatever. I was like, you need legs. It looks very odd that you're just torso. What's his name? Facebook meta? Zuckabur. Zuckabur. Get on it. Give us some legs. God damn it. God damn it. Bastard. Yeah, more. Yeah, there might be the metaverse for all, for all I know. Hopefully are the better ready player one. Sure. This has been nice. Thank you for having me. Carl. Thank you for joining me. Thank you everyone for watching. Hopefully we didn't offend too many people, but it's nice to have just a slide into my dams if I offended you. Please. On the deal. On the download. I'm gonna get so much trouble for this. I love you all. He likes you all. I for the record don't. I don't love you all. I don't know those to be. I like you. I'm gonna start live streaming. So I think I'll post this as a live stream and then people can like sort of chat as they're watching. Okay. And I'll engage but put your questions, your comments in. This is what you do, isn't it? You do this down there. You too. Yeah. Yeah. And like and subscribe. And then we can follow up and I can follow up with Carl if you have any questions. Yes, please. Okay. I like to follow up. Goodbye. Till next time.