 I'm Mark Shlov, the host of Think Tech Hawaii's Law Across the Thief program. The coronavirus pandemic has covered the world with dark clouds. It has changed how we live and work. It has changed the practice of law in Hawaii. What was once normal is gone. Many lawyers now work from home and some courts are closed. However, there may be silver linings for the legal profession in those dark clouds. I've asked Hawaii lawyers, Bruce Sherman, Stephen Gutman, Nalaan, and Summer Kayavit, to share the light they have seen behind the pandemic clouds. I'm going to ask them each to answer a series of questions. First of all, we're going to start with Bruce and we're going to go in alphabetical order by first name. What changes have you seen because of the pandemic that have positively affected your law practice and personal life despite the adversity and negative impacts that have caused them? Bruce? Thank you, Mark. Thanks for putting this together, too. I think probably everyone will agree the increased use of technology and, particularly for me, the use of remote Zoom hearings for non-evidentiary matters in court. You can argue emotion from your office. I've done that a few times. I found it incredibly beneficial. I can focus more on the opposing counsel's argument. I have my own papers right in front of me. I'm not shuffling at the last minute and standing up. I find that my arguments, at least they appear to be, to me, are more measured and cogent. Another aspect of it, though, is I think it saves clients a lot of money. That's something that I think sometimes the court forgets to mention or talk about. They talk about access to justice, but there's a vast or middle-class people who really can't afford to have a lawyer fly out to a hearing in Maui for 15 minutes and bill them for the travel time and the hours, $1,200, $1,500. These people, they should be entitled to pick a lawyer from wherever they want to pick a lawyer. The same is, if an Outer Island lawyer wants to come to represent someone in Oahu, they shouldn't have to travel like that. It's really a waste of time and resources. I ask you to consider, because I'm involved in family litigation in the Midwest, I get to see fee statements and think about what you would feel like getting a monthly fee statement for a 15-minute hearing that was at least $1,500, and then maybe several of those. I think we need to focus a bit on the legal consumer and how it impacts them. The reality is, the majority of practitioners are solos in Hawaii. This matters to everyone. I've also participated in a mediation online back in the Midwest, and we had a very experienced mediator. He sent out a packet describing everything. He said up front in the packet, he had questions about doing Zoom mediations at first. After doing a few, he came around. He prefers them to in-person ones. The video is a silver lining. That's what you're saying. The use of it and the irony is this. It's nothing new to the court system. I think at least 10 years, they've been doing criminal arraignments via video. When you talk about constitutional rights, they're none too much more important than the arraignment and the advisement of rights and entry of a plea. That's not new. Your silver lining is the video here, or Zoom meetings, Zoom hearings that cost less for clients. Well, they cost less for clients. They make me more efficient. They don't disrupt my day by having to go back and forth to various hearings at court. What happens if you have an hour between, let's say, a hearing in court? What do you do? It's almost too little time to go back to your office because then as soon as you get there, you have to go back to court. Again, it makes the court more efficient as well. All right. Let me go on. Na, what are your silver linings? I definitely agree with what Bruce just mentioned. I think on the other side also for firms, you have a quite amount of staff, also attorneys, that really expedited, I guess, the process for law firms to incorporate, I guess, electronic case file and management system. You think about it now because everybody may be working from home or for our office, we have a list of half our staff working in office, the other half working at home. You will need an efficient system that would work, enable everybody to access kind files or work products. That is a good thing. If you are off island or if you are at a certain event, then that efficiency is very important. Before, because it takes a lot of time and resources to really change from paper to paperless office system. Now it's almost like out of necessity. Firms have to invest on that. Also, we are also emphasizing more on trainings of attorneys and staff for utilizing the new technology and also cyber security training. I think that's super important as well with all these headline news of how that could impact our clients' interests. In the meantime, I think, as a working mom, I feel the legal profession is really not well known for friendly to families or for working mothers. But now I think the pandemic, the remote working style of leaving or working really has enabled that to be a possibility. You are able to balance your life and work a little bit better now. You can still attend to your children's school events, but maybe after they are good or bad, you can still hop on your remote system, keep working and finishing the stuff for clients. I think that is a blessing. Definitely, I hope this could be something. Also, maybe law firm need to consider, a lot of younger generation of attorney would want this to keep. If you want to attract good talents and retain your talents for the firm, then you may have to adjust your policy and to be embracing this remote working style and give that flexibility for attorneys, for staff. It sounds like the silver lining is that this technology, which was there, but was never really utilized, but now, because of the pandemic, we have to utilize it. We are learning how to utilize it within the firms. I would say not utilized because before the pandemic, a lot of the firms, we also started the process, but it wasn't always the number one thing we have to accomplish immediately, but now it becomes the pandemic. Everybody has to pee, but has to adjust fast to really adapt to that new technology, new system. I've seen attorneys on the mainland in certain practice areas, they even designed these apps to use with interact with clients, also managing their calendaring. Even for billing, that's pretty cool, because these days, everybody's hooked to the mobile devices and really the legal professions really now keeping pace with the technology. Usually, our profession hasn't been in that spot and now crisis brands the opportunity, this could be something we need to put in further thoughts and really adjust to the market. So, both you and Bruce have talked about benefits in the practice and in personal life. Both of you feel that there is benefits to both. Steve, where are you at? What are your silver linings in all of this? I definitely think there is both personal and professional savings and benefits to it all. There's really, it's a matter of time management. Bruce was talking about with Otter Island and it really becomes really, if you can see it real clearly when you have to go Otter Island and the court hearing frequently isn't even the 15 minutes Bruce was referencing. And so you've spent all this time going back and forth, but even when it's, I'm based in Honolulu and it's Honolulu hearings. You can check in just a few minutes before the court hearing. And once the hearing is over, you can immediately move on to the next item. I mean, it's just a tremendous amount of time savings and efficiency that I think is resulting from that. And at least the state district court is recognizing that because they actually are, have got in play a proposed rule that will make it permanent to allow for telephone and video conferencing on court hearings for everything other than trials and evidentiary hearings. I think there's a real recognition of that. I think it's also true for the bankruptcy court. All their hearings and the judges actually has done evidentiary hearings with the Zoom process and he seems to be very pleased with the results. That's good. I mean, that gives us another light here. I mean, in other words, there is a light behind the clouds with the courts. Also, the courts seem to be seeing the same thing. I mean, because all of you have different practices of law, but it sounds from what you say, Steve, is that the courts are recognizing that this may be beneficial. I think the courts are definitely recognizing that it's beneficial. And I think it's going to become permanent. Some of the courts like over on Maui allow, right now, you can either do it in person or by video conferencing. And I think they're going to continue to allow people to choose which one they're using. And depending upon the type of hearing it is, I think that does make a difference whether you do want to be there in person. But overall, I mean, the emphasis seems to be using the video conferencing more and more. Okay. And you like that? I like that. Okay. And you feel in your own practice, that's helpful. It is. I'm not that wild about it for if it's an evidentiary hearing or a trial, but on the motion practice, it really is very beneficial. Okay. Summer, what are the silver linings in your practice and personal life? Hi, Mark. Sure. Thank you. You know, like Bruce, Naa and Steve, I certainly echo their comments. I think one of the predominant benefits and silver linings through the pandemic that I found, both professionally and personally, is the increased use of technology. As Bruce mentioned, the technology was there, but really it's when the pandemic thrust us all into how do we try to maintain a sense of continuity and productivity despite being physically isolated from one another, from our clients, from our offices, from the courts. So many people, myself included, really accepted and ran with the use of technology and made it work for them. Certainly agree with the many different benefits that the increased use of technology offers. We don't lose time traveling. It's certainly more efficient. Results in cost savings to clients. Also allows for increased client participation, in my view, for clients that are particularly those on the mainland, but even local clients here as well, they can zoom into a motion's hearing and they can observe alongside, as I'm arguing, rather than waiting for the after the hearing report. There's something to be said for seeing it themselves, hearing the tone and everything that transpires live. So I do think that the clients in that sense appreciate the ability to participate in the process along the way. I would also say, similar to NAH, echoing her comments about the increased use of technology, having benefits for working mothers, working families as well. For me, my daughter was born in February of 2020, right before the pandemic really hit our shores. So I know firsthand that being able to use technology to zoom into my court hearings, meet with clients, meet with others in the firm, that was just really a blessing in disguise for me at the time. Allowed me to stay at home longer with my daughter and to enjoy that time with her and maintain a full practice as well. So I certainly enjoyed those benefits and silver linings the pandemic. Yeah, that's interesting. And the point that you raised about clients being able to participate in hearings like motion hearings, I never thought about that. But yeah, I mean, normally the clients don't come to the motion hearings, at least in my experience. But and I want to dive into that now with each of you a little bit more. What are the beneficial innovations or good opportunities that have arisen during the pandemic with respect to that type of thing, with relationships with clients and other attorneys and even opposing counsel? What have you seen? And we'll go back, start again, Bruce, what are some beneficial innovations and good opportunities with respect to clients, other attorneys opposing counsel specific? I've got to say first that I think that we should all be willing to experiment even more and push the envelope. Certainly going to make mistakes. But you know, it's easy now and for me to zoom meet with my client. And you know, I can get a better reading from their face as to how they're digesting what I'm telling it. As to opposing counsel, I haven't really done many meetings other than hearings. But I have been partied to depositions on zoom. And that is a form of evidentiary hearing and they work. You know, I am a party in Indiana and I have my lawyer do an expert deposition. You send the documents over there. Well, depends on how you want to do it. You send them over the day before or 15 minutes before. And I can only say that it works. I think you might want to think about some other things that you could try to involving documents and exhibits. I'm not sure I would do it in family court because it might be important to actually see the demeanor personally. But you know, I have a co-counsel that, you know, we just had a zoom meeting in terms of strategizing on a case and it was helpful. You know, it and he told me about having done some arbitrations, limino arbitrations. And one tip he mentioned was that the representatives for the auto company or, you know, manufacturer did not turn on their camel. And it seemed really odd. That was his impression. It seemed as if they were ducking or or that there was a certain amount of arrogance. So unless you're having a horrible hair day or something, turn on your camera, you know, that won't happen with me. But okay, all right. And that's a neat point. I mean, we've talked a lot about technology and and it's that's interesting what we're discovering not what are what are some of the, you know, beneficial innovations, good opportunities you've seen with clients, other attorneys opposing council. So just give a few examples. I really like to share the screen of the document view function of zoom, you know, because I could have kind, you know, go over commercial lease, you know, I can just highlight on the provision that they may have questions is pretty efficient. You know, either teams meeting or zoom, those functions are really good. And I like the fact that for zoom, you know, I have clients who may be on the same matter, same transaction, but they're in different time zones. This is like a life see where when you schedule the meeting, you know, automatically converted to the time zone that, you know, your client is in and you know, people from different time zones can call into the same meeting. And we discuss very efficient for meetings, you know, attorneys, like professional meetings, like ADA conferences or community associations, Institute, American Lawyers Association, Immigration Lawyers Association, all those conferences, it used to be you have to make a travel, you know, a trip to the mainland, it costs a lot for hotels, for airlines, but now everything is remote. They operate at a much discounted rate. So a lot of more, you know, attorneys, you know, beginning practitioners, you can really utilize this opportunity to get some fill ease and trainings at a very affordable price. Although, you know, there's not that face to face personal touch there, you can still go through the Zoom sessions to communicate it with council practitioners in your field on the mainland everywhere. So that's awesome. A lot of those professional organizations, they also switch their networking events to virtual conferences. So there are a lot of opportunities if you're willing to speak, it's also awesome opportunity for you to market yourself by presenting remotely. So I think that's also something good coming out of that. Wow. Those are all really good examples, Steve. Yeah, let me give you another example that that's come up. The state district court's perception is that they're having more defendants actually appear now that they're doing the conference call, that the amount of cases that are going by default are down from what they were before the teleconferencing started. As to whether they've got any hard statistics to really back that up, I don't know, but I've had, I've heard more than one judge comment about the fact that the participation is up by pro se defendants. Another factor though, that I've also heard from a number of attorneys though, is in terms of settling cases, the lack of face to face ongoing interaction with attorneys is making the settlement discussions are not as easy as they were when everybody would be appearing at one time. Even though it may be a motion that has nothing to do with settlement, at least to get discussions going and getting people to think and get some interactions going. So there is leads to perception among a number of attorneys that from first settlement purposes, there is somewhat of a downside here. A third thing to mention though, as Bruce mentioned about the camera on, camera off, bankruptcy court, it's not with the camera on for the motions, unlike the other courts. And one advantage, at least when it's emotions, if the camera is off, one can certainly be doing other things while you're waiting for your case to be called. So there is something to be said if it's not for trial, not for evidentiary hearings, but just strictly for motions to handle the teleconferencing despite the telephone mechanism. Okay. Summer, what are some of the beneficial innovations and good opportunities that you've seen with respect to relationships, clients, other attorneys opposing counsel? Sure. I think right off the top, I would say that the pandemic has had the unique ability to be this common thread, this common issue that globally people are facing together. So in a sense, it's united people because we have this common issue, in a sense, a common enemy or something that we're all trying to figure out in our own lives, in our own families, in our communities. How do we work through this? How do we live, survive and thrive? And so it's, I think, had the effect in many ways of uniting people to see their common interests, common concerns that they're navigating through together. So it's a point of reference, I think, for people, clients, colleagues, opposing counsel in the courts to talk about, you know, hey, how are you doing? And to check in with one another. I think that as a related point there, it has increased the level of understanding and hopefully the level of stability, I think that we as attorneys are feeling in the profession. We understand that people are dealing with things just at an unprecedented level of concern in many ways. And so I think that this adds a layer of understanding and compassion that perhaps wasn't always there. And I would also say that that this has had an impact in terms of an attitude shift in the profession. We talked about earlier about the availability of technology and it always being there, but perhaps it was our own attitudes and our willingness to use it or not use it. Certainly now I think that more of us recognize the benefits to using technology and have embraced technology. Hopefully that willingness to try new things and the recognition that things are fluid, you know, we need to make the best of it. Hopefully that attitude can translate to other areas of our lives for the better. Well, that's really interesting that there is a human humanity point of all this. And a lot of the technology is what you've been talking about. Now, I want to know of these positive changes, which would you like to see become permanent? Bruce? All of them. My biggest concern is, and this is my opinion, but I'll be blunt about it, is that the legal profession and the judiciary is traditionally reactionary. And if you compare us to businesses and other things, we are way behind the power curve. And it's really a question of being dragged, kicking and screaming sometimes into the 21st century. I've worked for my home for over 25 years and I'm able to do it because of technology. And I was as confused as anyone when federal court started having you file electronically and same with state court. I finally kind of figured that out. But I forced myself over the years to get used to reading documents electronically without having to use a paper document. And I found that it makes it easier. You get used to it. I'm still wondering why we file things electronically and yet we still have to trundle over the court and hand off to courtesy copies. But maybe we'll solve that. That may be a generational thing. The next generation of judges will be more familiar with what we are seeing now as new. It will be old hat to them. Okay. Na, where are you at? What would you like to see permanent? I think definitely these new changes we are having, they're not, you know, after the pandemic over, it will stay with us. We just have more options. As I, you know, before the pandemic, we started to go through our firms, like old boxes of files left by, you know, retired attorneys. I could pull out those very touching, you know, handwritten letters. And there's also typewriter. You obviously see these yellow paper typewriting things. And you see this, you know, age passage, you know, it's like a history of our profession as well as the new technology goes forward. You know, these days, if we get a letter in the mail, we, if it's not a billing invoice thing, you will feel that personal touch as well. So I still miss person, face-to-face launch meetings with the clients, with colleagues, and also with the, you know, other attorneys. But I think once the pandemic over, we want to have like a combined of, you know, things. I'm more adaptable to, you know, keep what we have and also keep our options open, not definitely just swing to one extreme to the other. Okay. So that's, that's good. Combine, you know, keep and combine. Steve, what do we want to do? Yeah, I agree with that. Keep and combine. That's a nice, nice statement. I mean, I've been practicing long enough that I remember the time when, when there was not computers and moving into the computers and how this all, that, that was major changes. But I think we're just going to keep going in the same direction. And I think Bruce's comment about generational with the judges is very true. It's, I don't, I don't see us going backwards. I think the, I think the video conferencing is going to be permanent. Okay. Summer, you've made a lot of good comments about personal and technological changes. What do you want to see kept? Right. Thanks, Mark. Like the others, I do like the phrase keep and combine. And I would say that I hope that we continue to use technology for things that help to make our practice and our personal lives more efficient, more fulfilled. So perhaps using zoom technology for non-evidentiary hearings and, and certain matters of meetings that helps to bridge gaps between, you know, parties, but also to be able to be in a position to safely revisit in-person meetings, lunches, networking sessions and things like that. I certainly also do look forward to the day when I'm standing in a courtroom once again at the podium at council table. So I'm sure we'll get there one day. Okay. Keep and combine. That's a new phrase that we just made up here. That's great. Now we have just a few minutes left. I'd like to give you each a minute just to tell us what you've learned about life in the practice of law while living under the clouds of the pandemic. Bruce? Well, I think one of the things we've learned is we can do things better. We can use technology to be more efficient, to help clients, to help our own firms. One of the things I'm impressed with hearing now in summer is it's an important issue I think is that you can have a family and still practice, you know, in a law firm. You should be able to. The fact that, you know, this is sort of new now is a little sad, but I actually consider that a huge point. Here's one last question. I mean, there's so much more to talk about. Who on this conference call knows what a MAG-1 is? The old IBM Oh, the cards from about 1974. That was the state of the art back then when I started, you know, working in law offices. And it's amazing what we've done, but I want us to sort of dedicate ourselves to doing more and exploring what we can that we don't even think of now. Na, what have you learned about life in the practice of law during the pandemic? I feel that, you know, really recognizing that a legal practice is a marathon. You got to take good care of yourself in order to take better care of your families, your loved ones, and your clients. So ultimately, because of the pandemic can definitely fail. Sometimes it's easy to feel mentally down, you know, caring about yourself. I'm glad, Mark, you put together this panel. It's always important to stay positive in life. Same thing for the legal practice, you know, balancing your work and life. That's super important. Steve, what have you learned, life in law? Life in law, yeah, that there is life independent of all. But it's definitely learned additional flexibility, I think, with being able to do the hearings from home. You know, you don't necessarily, even though it's an 8 o'clock, 8.30 hearing, you can do the hearing at home, you don't have to be in an office. It's just the added flexibility, probably the biggest thing. Okay, that's good. Summer, please, you know, what have you learned about the life and practice of law while practicing life in law under the clouds of the pandemic? Sure, Mark, thanks so much for having me here today and for assembling this panel. I really, I definitely agree, just wholeheartedly with the comments that Bruce, Na and Steve have shared. Na, in particular, I often use that phrase, the practice of law is a marathon, not a sprint, especially when I'm talking to younger attorneys coming up because it really is. And so I think to be successful and to be well, you really do have to make sure that you take care of yourself. Well, being among attorneys is really an important issue. Attorneys need to take care of themselves in order to take care of their families and their communities. And that's something that I think the pandemic has brought it to focus for me as well. Well, this has been a terrific talk. I mean, we could talk for hours on these things, but we're through with our program. We're over now. I want to thank you all, Bruce, Na, Steve, Summer. Great, great thoughts. I mean, silver linings, keep and combine. I mean, let's keep talking about this. Thank you so much, Aloha, all of you. Thank you for participating. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.