 All right Michelle, first things first, before we get into retirement, let's just talk about the beginning of this executive director with the NBAP journey and how the opportunity interests you and how it came to be. So I wasn't looking for this, right? I really need to score that because not only was I not looking for this, to save my soul I would not have been able to say I would end up in sports. I've never played, always been a basketball fan, you grow up in New York, it's hard not to, but never for one second thought I'd be in the world of sports. So I'd literally just fell into it. I was in my old life, I was a trial lawyer, I tried cases that would typically last for many many months at a time and one of those cases settled, had some free time, a chance to read the newspaper, read about my predecessor being fired, thought that's a cool job. I'm sure they'll fill it in seconds and then some months later, I again picked up the sport section and read that they were still looking. So I don't know what happened but at that moment I began to Google, find out a little bit more about the business, about the circumstances leading up to his termination and frankly the more I read about it the more I thought this would be so cool. I gotta try it, right? And so I did and you know the rest is what they call history. Did you feel embraced right away as you stepped in? I know there's a lot of moving parts and I mean your experience I know you've dealt with just about everything but what were some of the interest in dynamics difficulties in terms of stepping into that role? Well bear in mind I stepped into a role where my predecessor had been fired. So it was already the suspicion about the utility of the union, can we trust anyone? Do we need this thing? And they made it very clear that the players that is made it very clear that I was going to have to earn their trust and they weren't kidding. I had to earn their trust. I was tested in ways that I think make absolute sense because again they felt at least, I can't speak on the bona fides of their problems with my predecessor but they felt as if they'd been burned. And so it's probably about two years in when I began to not see people look at me with a side eye, right? But no complaints about it. I think that in any job you have to prove your work but I think when you come into a circumstance where there's been sort of bad blood and litigation and all that and it's particularly important to earn the trust and the credibility and it's worked out. One of the things we talk about appreciate you is just how representation is so important as a black woman in this role. What was that experience in terms of the feedback you would get from people and recognizing just how important that role is and what the example that you set in terms of opportunities. And you know players so you will know something that many people did not understand about how in the hell I got this job, right? And they literally said she's not in sports, she's a girl and the black thing wasn't as much of an issue but you know she's a girl, she's a lawyer, what does she know about this? But one thing that if you know our players is you know that not all of them but a good number of them were raised by a single black woman, right? Who they all acknowledge saved their lives, right? I mean who they acknowledge they viewed as the most important person in their world and someone of incredible strength. And so these men had no difficulty appreciating that a woman can do important things. Heck, she saved my life, right? I mean who doesn't remember Katie's, you know, Harlow's speech on the MVP, right? I mean so in retrospect it was not difficult for these men to say a woman can do this because they've seen it happen, they've seen themselves as an example. And the more moms I met the more I said this was a piece of cake and I think their moms because their moms demonstrated and improved to them you know women are capable and can do anything that a man can do. And so it wasn't as big a lift as people might assume. They got it before they knew me. Who were, just for you, who were some big role models for you growing up a part of your journey? My mom, right? I also was raised by a single mom. My parents separated when I was very young. So my mom was absolutely saved my life. She was a very no-nonsense kind of woman who did not take kindly to the notion, well mommy we're poor. We're not supposed to be, right? So my mom was poor and then I've had, you know, oddly enough, most of my role models were men. And I think it's because of the profession I chose that just weren't a lot of women who would do a lot more now but there weren't a lot of women who were doing the kind of work I was doing. So you know the good news is I met some great men who believed that I had talent and sort of were available to help me get to the next level. A lot of people were role models that didn't even know that I was modeling myself after them because they didn't know me, right? And so, you know, I had people who I've admired that are strangers to me. Some of them are younger than me. In this job I've had players who have inspired me in ways that they don't even know about. I don't think it's a cookie cutter, cookie cutter kind of thing. You meet people, you read about people and you say I want to be like blank and then you just try to do it. Could you give us a name or two of these people in the profession that you chose and in entertainment and just in prominent, in different prominent roles? I will, someone you don't, you won't know. Someone I worked with, this Robert Charles Overtree was, I still worship him. He made me the best lawyer I could possibly be. He knew he was a role model though. You know, as much as I love Barack, I think Michelle is spectacular, right? I met President Obama many times, three or four times, but I'm still waiting to meet Michelle, right? Because I think he was fantastic. Stacey Edwards is now my, Abrams rather is now my number one role model because of the work she did in Georgia. Gosh, you know, Harriet Tubman, who I've never met obviously, but I know her story. I love her story. Maya Angelou. A lot of black women, they don't know me. But I love them. I want to be like them. And, you know, those are the shoulders upon which we all stand. And, you know, I guess the one person I wish I had met, obviously, whatever world because he's no longer with us is Malcolm X. I think that was the first time that I began to appreciate that being an African-American was not a problem or something to be proud of. And I mean, I read his book when I was probably 10. I read it every year. I read it every year because it was too short of an inspiration. But, you know, we got plenty of heroes and sheroes out there. You know, as you mentioned, I mentioned in other interviews that the autobiography of Malcolm X was the most transformative book for me. And I didn't read it for the first time until I started college. And yeah, it took that long. And it opened my eyes and the things that you said in terms of, you know, taking pride in one's heritage, the color of your skin, where you come from, that whole thing, and shunning all those false narratives that people try to, you know, put upon you. So that's a big one. Going through so much, you talked about single parent household, I did as well. You know, being a trial lawyer, you have a lot of things thrown at you, except this executive director role with the NBA. And, you know, you're thinking it's going to be one thing. And then you deal with COVID. The George Floyd situation and talking about pride and bringing them out to Mexico, some of the other names that you did also, because Maya Angelou talked a lot about pride, and there are so many others that said a great example. What was that experience like in your communication with the players and forming, you know, keeping the conversation going in terms of what's important and things that are bigger than the game, and especially being in a sport that's predominantly black and being out at the forefront there. I actually began to get some hint about what the, I don't want to say political persuasion that the players were, but their commitment to community was even before I got the job. When Donald Sterling was in the news, I was watching to see what the players were going to do. I knew what I thought. I thought he needed to be drummed out of the league immediately. But I wanted to see, and I hadn't been hired yet, I wanted to see what these guys are going to do. And I will recall, I do recall, pretty clearly a media interview that Chris Paul, who was the president of the Players Association at the time, and a member of the Clippers team was asked about, you know, what are the players thinking about all this. And he said, and with the seriousness that I'll never forget, we're going to see what the league is going to do. And it wasn't a threat, but it was a promise that I heard loudly and clearly, and I suspect Adam did as well, because it wasn't long after that that the league announced that that Sterling was going to be banned. And at that moment, I said, I want to work for these men because they're no nonsense. And they clearly had some authority that they would not, you know, I'm not going to poo poo other other sports, but there are there are other sports that don't take seriously players positions on the some of these matters. And so that happened. And then I got the job and then you'll remember the ESPN interview, the ESPN, the ESPs. And I get a phone call the night and I don't watch, I don't watch the award shows, I just think they're ridiculous. But I get this phone call saying you watching the ESPs tonight. And I said, no. And the call was said, I think you should. And I went, Oh, my God, what, what, and it opens with that fabulous scene with these four brothers standing up there, we're all wearing black and it's a call to action. And that's when I knew who these players were. I said, you know, these men are not simply taking the money and running, they actually care about their communities. And so when, when, you know, when COVID hit, and we were all at home, and we're trying to get back to work and figuring out a way to do it safely. And then, you know, all, I'm watching these brothers and these sisters, because these basketball players, women basketball players, ain't to be played with. I'm watching them as a community. And, you know, they, and I'm out there, I'm living home, I'm out there too. I'm watching them with absolute pride. And then we finally get the protocols ready. And we're deciding whether we go back. And the question was, should we go back to play? Are we distracted from this unbelievably necessary national conversation? And I'll tell you, Michael, I was on probably 40 calls with players, some of them off the full team, some of them just, and it was fascinating. It was absolutely fascinating. The consensus was, if we go back, we're not going to go back and get people a distraction from this conversation. We're going to put it right in their faces. And so Black Lives Matter is all over the court, right? Guys are wearing slogans on their, on their, on their uniforms. We're doing, press conferences begin by, say her name, Brianna. It was, it was phenomenal. And we exact some, some concessions. I don't want to say concessions, because the league will say, no, we agreed with you. But we made some agreements with the league and the teams about how they would facilitate this discussion. And at that time, I'll get the vote out. And then, you know, when Jacob Blake was shot and in the bubble, and once again, was stopping that a meeting that took hours that night with over 200 players, again, I regret that not everybody in the world could have seen this because it was just fascinating to watch these men talk about what they were going to do and what, what the league was going to do and what the teams were going to do and argue and, and, and hug and fight and cry, but all in love for their communities, black and white, by the way, international and, American players. So I may be ashamed of many things that I've done in life, not many, but there are also some things I'm really proud that I've done in life. And one of them is blessed with the opportunity to work with these men. How can the NBA players involved continue to show their support for the efforts to, you know, make America better, lead more inclusive and keep that conversation going in terms of what's right and continuing to be a voice for the community? They can, they do it in ways that most people don't even know about. I mean, obviously they spend a lot of their own personal treasure into the community. We've built so many community centers, and by we, I mean, the players have, it's not just AAU basketball, I mean, they're doing things for them in neighborhoods that have horrible health care, food, deserts, education, STEM. I mean, it is amazing if you look at the range of things that the players invest their own resources, water, clean water in Africa, just extraordinary. So they do a lot that don't make the headlines, but they also use their platforms when it's appropriate to remind people that you may think of me as a basketball player, and I am, but I'm also a man, I'm an American, I'm a member of this community. And so, you know, whenever I've asked them or they've been asked to, for example, do a panel, Tobias Harris just did a panel for the Congressional Black Caucus on athlete activism. That's not going to be headline news, but it's going to be part of the Black Caucus' conversation about what they can do. But we are trying to do more about some of these ridiculous voting restrictions that are being passed in states, and we are going to continue to do more about that. So, you know, whenever, I mean, they do have day jobs, and so, you know, they're not community activists. I'm not, you're not, right? We do have to, you know, to make a living, and they are fathers, and they are husbands, and they are sons, and so they have to have time for their families. But I'm consistently impressed with their willingness to be a part of the conversation and if things get quiet to start things up again. And so I think we're going to see them, I mean, again, quietly, so much is being done behind the scenes. Their support of Black businesses is incredible. Their investment in Black community and real estate for affordable housing is incredible. But when it's time to hit the streets, they hit the streets too. They are. The last thing on this subject real quick, it is unfortunate that there was, you know, a tragedy led to so many of these conversations and so many, you know, speaking out. Some players have had no issue throughout their career speaking out on a variety of issues. But how much pride did you take? I know I certainly did in watching guys with the Brooklyn Nets who I didn't pin as the vocal type, but being so, you know, feeling the conviction to speak up and find their voice and to step up. And you mentioned how many guys were on these calls and how many people were out in the streets and a part of these protests and seeing guys who, well, I didn't, you know, peg him as someone that would speak up and be at the forefront of the front lines. I thought that was really beautiful to see. Not only the guys who you expect, but other guys who felt convicted to step up as well. Yeah, and especially during those calls, and that's why I said it's unfortunate that you guys couldn't have been at this meeting. I was like eating popcorn and saying, wow, right? So I never knew you had that and just incredible. Because, you know, bear in mind, those of us, many of us, too many of us in our community, we do well financially and then we disappear, right? And it's not, you don't have to do, I'm a Christian, I think you're supposed to do things for your, you know, your fellow man and woman. But you don't have to. It's not a law. And the fact that these guys don't simply take the money and run, but instead believe that they have to pay it forward and pay it back and do it with relish. They're not burdened by it. They're burdened by racism. They're not burdened by having to fight it. They're burdened by racism and classes, all the things that are rendered life for some of us, unfortunate and unequal. But they are, they are, they are unapologetic in their resistance to oppression, unapologetic. And it permeates everything they do, by the way. They bore, they want to. Why is now the right time to retire, Michelle? Because I promised myself that I would not die behind a desk. I just, I did that a long time ago. I said, you know, you love your work and I do. I've always been blessed with having, doing work that truly inspired me to get up in the morning. But I knew the danger of that. I said, you have consistently been making a list of all the things you want to do when you have time and you never have time. So if God is good and you have your help at 65, and I'm not ashamed to say I'll be 65 soon, you stop what you're doing and just smell the damn roses. And that's why it's time, not because I dislike the job. I love this job, but I've been working since I was 13. I think, I think I kind of deserve, takes me time. I've got friends who are retired and they're like, girl, you need to get out and get on this water. It feels good. You're gonna find the nearest boat. You're gonna find the beach. I'm gonna go to beaches. I want to do, I mean, I do a lot of traveling, but it's always business related. I never have time to just sort of get to know the community and I haven't had a vacation. I don't remember the last time I had vacation, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna still do some work. I'm not going to have a paycheck, right? Because I've also sacrificed such that my retirement is taken care of. I'll do a little work. I want to get back to some of the things I think are important in the community. I'm still passionate about criminal justice issues and I want to do some work on that. There's a little board work here and there, but ultimately when I get up in the morning, I'm gonna say, so what do you want to do today? Saw this headline, which I really think is cool because so many players have played ball on this court, including Kevin Durant of the Brooklyn Nets, Rucker Park and the other players association and their role in and breathe a new life into the Rucker. Yeah, I'm so excited about that. The Rucker, I grew up in the South Bronx, two older brothers, both of whom were passionate about basketball, both of whom thought they'd play in the NBA, neither of whom had any talent whatsoever. So of course they never got anywhere close to the league, but they played basketball. Every kid in the project I grew up in, every boy, young boy played basketball. And the Rucker was like special. I don't think they ever got to play in a tournament or anything like that good, but they always went to the Rucker every summer for whatever tournament and they were supposed to be babysitting me, right? And my mom didn't know this, but they took me to Harlem. So I grew up not so much watching the games, but watching the excitement surrounding the game. And so the Rucker has always been special to me as a New Yorker and as a basketball fan. And the first time I would been back to the Rucker after I got the job, I was mortified at the condition of the court. And there were efforts being made to get the court ready for different games. But I thought, you know, we don't treat, we don't treat, you know, this is a sanctuary like that. You know, this is a sanctuary. So just talking to some of the guys about it, you know, we got great places, we got Drew and all these lovely basketball mechas. But the Rucker, the Rucker has to be respected. And so we decided to read some new life into the Rucker. Construction is going on right now. We expect that we'll be able to reopen the park first week of October. And it can be such a glorious day to see. We're hoping to bring a lot of guys back, including Kai and Kevin. And the guys that grew up and then played at the Rucker when I have them come back and just give to give Harlem, just say thank you to Harlem and Harlem basketball because it's done. We've done well by the Rucker. Michelle, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for all that you've done for the league and representing and so good to talk to you. Thanks you. Thank you so much and all the best as you do what you want to do each and every day. And by the way, I think the work you do is pretty darn good too. I've always enjoyed your interviews. I don't do many of these things. And so it's only because of the quality of your work, Michael. Keep it up. Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Michelle. I appreciate you.