 Back at still the breakfast in plus TV Africa and time for a first conversation. Well, the socioeconomic rights and accountability project in Nigerian based civil society organization also known as CERAP has sued the Nigerian president Muhammad Abu Hari over the agreement the country reached with the United States of America for the repatriation of funds stolen by the late military dictator Sonia Bachar worth about 23 million dollars. Now the agreement signed in August 2022 followed the 311 million dollars of Bachar loot returned by America in 2020. CERAP in the suit to filed at the federal High Court in Abuja is asking the court to direct the president Muhammad Abu Hari and the attorney general Malami Abu Bakar to make the details of his transactional agreement rather public. The body also wants to know the mechanisms put in place to ensure that the repatriated funds are not mismanaged, divetted or re-stolen. Now in filing the suit CERAP is relying on the Nigerian constitution the freedom of information act and the country's international obligations and we'll look at the reasoning behind this move by CERAP as well as its import as we welcome our guests on the program this morning. We have joining us Sogyi Oghaneri Bore. He is a management consultant and social commentator glad to have you Sogyi. We have also Dr. Abu Bakar Salihu who is a political scientist a public policy analyst and a lecturer at the Bayero University County. Gentlemen thank you very much for your time this morning. Thank you. Is there a need in your opinion for the federal government to do what CERAP is asking it to do? Especially bearing in mind the fact that this is a bilateral agreement between the United States and Nigeria and also bearing in mind that the federal government had previously said that these routes will be channeled into infrastructure projects by the federal government. Dr. Salihu are you there please can you hear me? Okay whilst we cannot hear Salihu let's go over to Sogyi Oghaneri Bore. Sogyi can you hear me please? I can. Yeah. Sogyi. Sogyi by the name of Gigi anyway. I think it's appropriate. I'm sorry. Can you hear me? Yes yes we can loud and clear please go on. Are we there and thanks to CERAP for the almost task of what they have been doing in calling the government out and asking for accountability. These uh looking for the real return of recovery were born out of corruption as it were and it is said that the government that has been done in the past and see corruption even where we are linked to the country but when these forms have returned they should be properly accounted for and for whatever for whoever they invested it should be made into the public. Right in any case the federal government is going to extend any forms except they are appropriated by the national assembly. So with these two points it's the hope on the government to only come out open with these recovered funds. It's also seen that the government is anyway aware of this and if these funds are not properly accounted for and whether they are invested in along with the connoisseur that they are also keeping from this under the rap or hiding which we could be said that the police are being treated through corruption and trying to set up for taking off the federal government of course to ask for explanation. I mean can you tell me? Yes we can. Yes we can. So your this report that I knew I would like to have been viewed that by this format therefore the price is great of five billion US dollar and since then since 24 years when we went into them crazy over three billion has been recovered or returned however we have not been told how these returns but over three billion dollars have been invested and what have been spent moreover national assembly has not prepared for response so it is said they have been still neglected and persuaded and persuaded by the federal government. We in this case there seems to be an agreement that has been spent by the United States of America and like you don't go in response for this one because the last time that was response in 2020 I think 2021 they have deported one of the funds. There was an agreement in 2021 that responds to groups for certain purposes. I'm not sure the US government wants to return funds and through the mutual corruption of the usage. So they are asking the federal government let us state that document. This is my lecture document. It's not a subsequent document that we should see what how what is contained in that document. Not to show my life, it's it's not coming to say we have agreed to spend the money in this way. I don't know if he's entitled or if he has the authority to appropriate such funds into such sectors even if it is for development of infrastructure. Let's first see that and I don't know why it is not possible for us to see that and the layout of the constitution of the federal public when it's not abandoned states in section 8 that the federal government cannot extend any funds except it's appropriated by the national assembly. So whatever they are doing is illegally. So ask them to not come okay and let us see this written document. Not about it to be bill that we cannot explain. So we hear Nita come to say oh the 394 billion returned last time it was spent to give you one foot for two million Nigeria for this comes up with for this. It's a big question that this government is not transferring the idea in particular with these response of the budget that was looted. Well let's look at the fact that you know the specific conditions of how the recovered loot will be spent and it was attached to the repatriation. Now do you think that the government that's the government they have stated that they will use this funds for you know capital project. Do you think that it will actually be what the government has said? I don't think so. Just as they have also said in the past that money is the greatest response return given to state work and agency or a new project. We can't see that. There is no documentation to this effect. No information to say that what they are saying actually what they did. So these are led the government with integrity issue. They are wrong property integrity that they just speak and they expect engineers to go to sleep with it but it's obvious that this is one of the very kids as in particular the second nature project is said to be able to spend the money on. It's not correct but from records second nature project is a PPP project. First governments have only paid their contributions and the people that have built it are going to collect their money and put only three to which we are not going to spend that money. That's why they have to complain and specific or hard to put this on. They have their branches of integrity on this matter and I'm happy that Sarah pointed out this. All right it was a PPP project at some point but since this administration came in we look at the history of the second Niger bridge from the days of the chief of Lusheko Basinger where I go before Lusheko Basinger into the military times but we look at from this current republic Lusheko Basinger's time when he hardly before some days before he left office went to site and flagged off and the yard draw came in couldn't complete it. You know when they made promises and then of course had a PPP arrangement but it seems like since the Buhari came on board it's been more of the federal government saying we're going to fund this project and the cost going up I mean hearing this year Zainab Ahmadi Minister of Finance and financing about 157 billion now being spent on that that the initial cost had to be reviewed up to about 400 billion now because of rising inflation. So we might have to check maybe they still have spending money on the second Niger bridge. They're also talking about like you said earlier the the Legos Ibaro Expressway the Abuja Kanu yes road you have Legos Shagamu Ibaro Expressway Abuja Kaduna Zaria Expressway etc. Now there's something called the Presidential Infrastructure Development Fund which you know helps a lot some of these projects so everything that will be spent to pick on tractors from the Presidential Infrastructure Development Fund from anywhere sorry will be channeled through the Presidential Infrastructure Development Fund and I do remember yes yes I do remember I spoke to one of the media aides in the office of the president Nigerian Galale saying the structure of the Presidential Infrastructure Development Fund means that nobody can still even one dollar out of it you know the structure put in place so isn't that enough to give some sort of transparency that Serap is looking for to not one going to court. Yeah no if the first Serap went to court Serap has applied to them for this information and because they are not coming out today but not really they have to go to court to also impose a FOI law and it is court to come to bring it to compare them to bring out this information so if the if the if it's only the if that committee is transferring the first permission will not be exceeded from Serap because Serap they didn't know that they have probabilities in the court to hide that and I know this government is currently is they are shocked on that where it is they are probably called out so we're hoping that their continuation in the agenda is we are doing things we're not they don't even respect the court or us but that this Serap from the court for now is also making them go past the time to produce this couple even if they are extended not to even spend money in the areas that they have listed but with this case they will now be put on the line that if people who don't spend the whole money on this area let's put something on the ground that will be seen that will be seen to have is come out from this money so I think if you come with me in whatever form Serap is right to have gone to court they are they have the local standing to do that and it is interesting that somebody like them they are there to speak on behalf of the people so to guess for this information if they really will get that much for it they are to consider it in passing the testing and making the people to sit right to an extent that the money is put in those areas that they have listed so I think that in whatever I've got to constitutionally like I said even the money is supposed to be approved by even if they have a committee it's an income to the state if the federal government to the country because there's money that are left before legal I mean it's that if you are appropriated we can see those lines of all that proposal is on in the budget to put a budget so there is something about the rules and how we hope that we won't allow one can only be left without the money that they're eluded except the concrete evidence to show that the money's worth to that area that's my thing so so how do we achieve all of the things that you have said because I mean these are the concerns that Nigerians have actually raised the big notion with all of the looted funds is that these funds will be relooted and over time syrup is here suing the government because when we talk about transparency the process has not been respected so over time we hear government saying we will embark on capital projects we will I mean at some point there was a particular trench of the fund that was shared among 1.9 million poor Niger or vulnerable Nigerians if you like to say and so how do we get to a point as a country where we have a structure or a system that can ensure that funds that are looted are not relooted yes that's the point that will continue to raise our voice on this matter even if the fund bonnet even if the government is not to touch a third party because they seem to be really full with the gap of impunity that they don't care what people say this election here I am sure they have the elections here that are also appropriate for things that are not endable and all is explained in the in the line of the campaign fund we know we had a 2.1 billion dollars in the past so the government we should not start to ask questions because the more we ask questions no matter how they are their way trying to put them in check but for record do that we ask questions and go to court to see if they are coming compared if the government that has to respect the rule of law they wouldn't wait for this all right so Jay in 2020 this is about two years ago syrup they've been on this matter for some time and they had communication with the minister of justice attorney general awoka malami who is listed as a respondent a respondent in this suit that was filed on friday and he responded to syrup interestingly he responded to syrup saying that the federal government had no record of the exact amount of public funds stolen by the former military head of state sanya bacha but more importantly that the federal government had no records of the spending of about five billion u.s. dollars recovered loot for the period between 1999 and 2015 that's that's uh amazing isn't it uh um quite worrying you know what what are your thoughts on that um it was it was something you don't expect to get somewhere that they're having the government the government that that i that i do i throw you in the air if there is so much loud voice annoying asking for such information they come up to just put a word in the a word in this place and say this is what we are not aware so in in that it might not be responsible as a government to inform their students of what is going on they make you to go dig and dig they were at every point you are able to call them but i say oh we have found it they give you a response to that to that's the limit so i i don't know if i can really believe what that comes from this a government at this point because we had enough evidence and reasons to to see that they are they are very short on experience and accountability and that if you ask me corruption is corruption as as so exponentially increased from what we thought as we were coming to fight and how do we compile those two ends becomes and statistical to feel that these people that have been this uh uh uh corrupt become more something good at the end of the day as it were we are the finalize of their progress and their final and it's going to be any better than where they have been in the long all right let's let's uh we're being told that we have dr bubaka now uh bubaka thank you for joining us once again thank you for having me this morning all right then unfortunately i mean we have missed you on the conversation but quickly what are your thoughts sarah has always been at the front front fund i mean you won't talk about the front burner of uh sewing and litigation sewing the government bohari over some actions do you think that's really any um positive outcome for this particular one because it wouldn't be the first time we're still saying one and the same thing transparency is a big issue we can't really say that the funds that have been looted have been used for the exact papers that they were meant for or have been stated that would be used for so do you think that this makes any sense or does any meaning to it impact if you like to say uh good morning viewers out there uh actually i must start by commanding the effort of the federal uh government by either repatriating you know putting energy and it's an effort in repatriation of some of the huge uh money stolen by the past military uh leader so it's laudable it's commendable and it has ever right you know to actually serve as instrument or a watchdog to the business of governors in Nigeria because this is civil society organization that adheres to accountability uh management and human rights you know as since 1999 uh so many money was recovered or repatriated from uh the abacha uh luge uh to the tune of uh it was estimated to be five billion us there's no any publication the government has failed to publish it before the public domain on what exactly has been uh repatriated and how and we need to know all these and that is what has informed the action taken and the attorney general accessibility to information is one of the vital right of every citizen and this is one good aspect of uh democratic value in any society uh citizens must be vigilant uh citizens must commit what is happening the daily business of government must be known by the citizen citizen so so many money was recovered but no account this has led to a kind of uh mistrust a kind of uh people not having confidence in what government uh is doing as regard to repatriated uh amount of money that is said to be 23 million us uh so lack of lack of so many peculiarities that you know that are attributed to total countries you know make people not to have confidence in how government are spending this much yes it was agreement between a Nigerian government and United States of America the agreement was uh actually read on how to carry it out some even said that they will not repatriate this money all right so before before we go we seem to be having a bit of a network challenge with you there uh but i'll come back to soji um what we we hope hopefully we get it yeah yeah doc are you there sir can you hear me doc all right it seems you can't hear me but i'll come back to soji before we go because um it seems doc has a bit of a network connection i don't know if you can hear me um is there anything that can come out of this case that will prevent soji any mismanagement of these funds because i mean the agreement between the country uh and the United States of America uh is a sort of collaboration you know in order to use the money to write things it was said you know by the United States ambassador to Nigeria that um this latest repatriation brings the total amount of three three four point seven million you know and that um she actually said this this is the way it works as a result of the agreement 23 million will be transferred to the Nigerian government which through the Nigerian sovereign insurer and Nigerian sovereign investment authority will be used to continue infrastructure projects three key infrastructure projects located in strategic economic zones of the country and all so they've said this is that is there anything that will come out of of any sort of information made available to serap to say okay we're using this money this how much is sent to contractor a contractor b can that would still give serap anything to to to prevent to sell nothing will be stolen because i mean if they say oh we are appropriating it to contractors what guarantees that are either information is made available that funds will still not find his way to to pockets of these government officials i can call me right yes yes yes now thank you very much the evil designer we are probably faithless in it as a Nigerian in getting an initiative we're not hopeless and please call it out from the government in a way of the order we increase the they are they are we reduce the capacity to want to use the property funds because people are aware you only inspect what you expect we knew what is contained in that document and it's a project for infrastructure let us even know if it's the work that i've mentioned as i've mentioned by shu malami the the the research for a person so i will continue to say we're going to live on a boat that as much as they are they are not to us and that we are calling them we are aware to an extent we are in a way of actually changing the fact that because there is a population tendency will be reduced which will mean that will be a cost is even if they are planning to really put those worries in the areas that have been mentioned and those are not the areas that were mentioned in the in the agreement that is being kept secret they will actively think and try and put it in the automatically all right we cannot count the work of setup or the other civil organizations that are that are speaking on behalf of the people to ask the government question because it's okay it seems that the fact that government has been able to either judge people for speaking but it's visible as speaking for us who continue to propose them and and expand them not far from what they are doing all right no matter the outcome if even if it is not as we are expecting we are going to get totally to that point we are currently on this particular matter all right in this so you're saying you're saying it's not a loss cause something will school will still come out from this all right so Jay Oganeri Bury we want to thank you so much for your time it's a management consultant and social commentator uh Dr Abubakar Salihoo we're also sorry for the network interruptions apologies so that I'm sure we'll have it better next time he's a political scientist public policy analyst and lecturer at bio university counter gentlemen thank you so much for your time thank thank you very much well that's the size of it this morning we take a break and quickly we'll run through a second conversation please stay with us