 Thank you Ada and thank all of you for being here today. I also want to thank The WordPress organizers and all the volunteers. This is awesome I am so impressed with everything that you've accomplished. I can tell you've put in some long Dedicated hours. I also want to thank a couple of people that because of them I'm able to be here today and speak one of them in the room is Joe Simpson, Ron Amick Rob from Maine WP and Yoast and of course the meet-up groups in my area Santa Clarita Valley meet-up and Accessible web plus WordPress in San Fernando Valley. So thank you all the people who are in the room today I know it's been a long day so far and I hope to keep you awake for the rest of the afternoon before we get to the good times for dinner and cocktails. I Want to let you know that my slides are available But I also have to warn you my slides are not full of text my slides are mostly images I learned a long time ago that people remember images So you may not remember the words I say exactly, but if you see something that's an image that I used it will remind you It's a nice trigger. So I happen to use images So you may find my slides at bit.ly. That's B I T dot L Y forward slash W C U S 23 and I'm going to allow you to know in advance that I may be standing at times I may be sitting at times those of you in the room saw that I walked to the stage with a little bit of assistance So if you see me disappear behind the podium, I'm still here Look up on the web as the kitten is sitting on the keyboard of a laptop computer looking at the screen It's a designer and there's a beautiful butterfly with wings of gorgeous several colors It's a developer and there's a picture of code that is used on a website There's a silhouette of two people standing in capes Wait, it's a web accessibility superhero Faster than a speeding bullet list Perceivable operable understandable robust Able to leap tall landmarks in a single bound header section navigation Consumes weak hag success criteria with every meal More powerful than a loco overlay And on the screen we have a computer screen with the words accessible to all and we have superheroes avatars that are showing up on screen Your web accessibility superheroes are A large group of people many in this room It is a group of people of all ages all sizes all shapes All abilities and all disabilities It is a group of people that you may find your quiet sweet mild mannered next door neighbor Or it may be your outrageous loud-spoken redhead Or someone with purple hair or pink hair That just won't stop talking about it But that's okay. It's that important But one thing this entire diverse group of web accessibility superheroes have in common is they all know That web accessibility is an inside job on the screen. I have a beautiful tree The leaves are a variety of colors, but you can also see the roots When this tree was planted it was very important that that seed be planted appropriately Those roots now have to be nourished They have to be tended to regularly in Order for that tree to maintain its beauty and its growth. The roots cannot be ignored So why web accessibility? This is a question that I do get asked at times and so I'd like you to think are you interested in web accessibility? because You found out From a web aim report that over 95% of web sites when tested were not accessible and the Entrepreneur in you said well, there is a business opportunity. I can make a difference Or are you one of those people that recognize that it's more than 25% of our population? globally That are disabled because it's not just those that are registered on the statistics It's also those who have friends and family who care and they only want to do business with businesses and websites that are ethically accessible to those that they love and That percentage is awfully low because it doesn't include Situational disabilities or people like me today who have a temporary disability In my case, I had a choice to make between falling over the dog or falling off the sidewalk And you can tell the dog won So that number of percentage of people who need a website to be accessible is actually larger than that 25% or Are you one of those people that is involved with web accessibility because it's the right thing to do? Or is it D all of the above? Personally, I believe it's D But there's also a question that I want you to ask yourself Why is web accessibility? important to you and Why do you want to be a part of making websites accessible? Because that affects how you're going to talk about it the who the what the why and That how make a difference based on how you Are committed to or perceive or are involved with accessibility if You are someone who is passionate about accessibility you care about the who and You care about the what which is making the website is accessible making the internet accessible and You care about the why? Because they deserve it. It's the right thing to do and in some cases. It's a civil right and You're also the type of person who is going to explain it ethically, and you're going to correctly do your web accessibility As part of your baked into the project. It's not an afterthought When I ask people how they talk about web accessibility I can get an idea of what kind of commitment they have and the struggles that they're facing in talking to their clients and It in my perception the more that you're involved with web accessibility the more you understand its value The more you feel for yourself that it's a benefit the easier it is to talk about Too many of our clients as we learn from the web aim report Never learned about it initially never thought about it initially and their web person didn't tell them and So when web aim does their one million site review every year and they find that over 95% of websites are still not accessible There's a lot of education that we need to do I Hear people tell me that web accessibility is hard You know sometimes getting up in the morning is hard But I'm glad that we do I remember when I first was introduced to WordPress and somebody said hey It's so easy. You're going to love it. It's great It wasn't for me It was hard. I didn't understand What it was I was supposed to be doing how I was supposed to do it and how come they thought it was so easy There was a learning curve And it's the same with web accessibility if you have not done it in the past and you're just now learning it It may occasionally seem hard because there's a learning curve But once you understand it it becomes an automatic part of the work that you do You build it into every website from the planning. It's not an afterthought When I go out and buy a new car if I at that time say well, you know what just give me any old car And don't include any air conditioning I'm doing okay until we come to a day like today here in DC. This humidity is just knocking me out I like the air conditioning so now I would have to take my car Back to a dealer or a car place and have them install air conditioning for me They're going to have to take it apart They're going to have to adjust a whole lot of components that Possibly weren't needed if the air conditioning had been installed in the first place It's the same with web accessibility when we build web accessibility in the initial Stage of our website. It is so much easier than going back in after the fact to remediate and Undoing the work that we've done Taking it apart step by step putting it back together Making sure everything plays well together and that can be very frustrating So if you want to make it easy Then we start by letting it be easy If you're the type of person that talks about web accessibility and on the screen I've just placed the face of a cat and a dog with horrified looks on their face If you go into a client and say lawsuit lawsuit lawsuit you're going to get sued everybody's going to take your money You're in trouble. I'm here to save you My experience has been that client is the least receptive Reason being is now they feel attacked You may be not the one that's attacking them, but they feel attacked They feel betrayed because whoever built their website didn't include it and The people that they take it out on are the disabled community They blame the disabled community that they're in trouble. It's an emotional thing So my recommendation is please don't start there Why would we want to give ourselves something difficult to overcome some people think that's the easy way through the door It doesn't work for me. I can't tell you it will be easy for you Not to do it or to do it but in my experience. It is the more difficult way and I personally like things easy It's so easy to learn about web accessibility The information is around us. I always tell people start with the course the free course on W3.org forward slash W AI and it is the introduction to web accessibility and it's free It will go over the who what how why give you a real up close and personal look of At people and the struggles that they have trying to access a website You will be able to witness these through videos people that need the website to be accessible and the difference that it makes I suggest looking on your dashboard of your WordPress site There are a number of meet-ups around the country around the globe that focus on accessibility Just do a search and you will find them and they have a number of meet-ups that focus on accessibility on WordPress and you can find them through your WordPress dashboard or through your meet-up Obviously come to WordCamp. We're here. We're working together. We're networking. Let's talk web accessibility And my favorite is the California State University of Northridge CSUN has a disability accessibility Technology conference once a year in March over 5,000 people in attendance over four days and all we talk about is technology web accessibility and user experience So if you have an opportunity to be near Anaheim in March, I would suggest don't miss it and of course Who can forget? We've got the web content accessibility guidelines When I was first brought to my attention that it was my fault that websites were not accessible and I certainly was embarrassed and humbled to find that out. I thought I was building great websites I was really proud of them But someone that is close to me who is blind wasn't able to access these sites So I would describe them. I thought I was doing a great job Until someone from Freedom Scientific showed up with a screen reader called JAWS And went to various sites and showed her what these sites sounded like through a screen reader. I was so excited I said here. Here's one of the sites I built. Please go there And he did and it was horrible So I thought well, okay fine. Here's one. I just finished. I'm so proud of this Please go take your screen reader to this site. So he did It was even worse What that screen reader said is it found its way across that web page was not what I was hoping it was going to do and I said I hear a website. It's really messed up And he said no ma'am Your website is really messed up I learned that day that I was the person that was causing the issue And I sought out to find a way to learn Today we have a lot more places to get education But the standards the web content accessibility standards Give us all an even working ground I would not recommend that you attempt to digest and absorb all of these at the same time It'd be like having your favorite meal laid out at buffet and you go over there and you say I'm just going to have it all All my food at the same time Not only is it impossible you'd be sick at trying So please do not do that to yourself with the web content accessibility guidelines Take them Reference them access them as you need them and you will find that doing web accessibility becomes easier and easier However Don't just rely upon We keg We have humans that access the web We need to be concerned about the human the user experience that that's not technical So there are things that we need to remember to do beyond The technical portion of we keg Why would we want to use wordpress? For web accessibility Could it be that The majority of websites around the globe are built on wordpress Could it be Well that it's easy to learn Has a learning curve, but generally easy to learn. Could it be that it is customizable could it be That there is a team on make dot wordpress dot org that is dedicated to the accessibility of wordpress And yesterday at the contributors day I had the pleasure of sitting with a number of folks That their passion is web accessibility and making sure that wordpress Inside and out is accessible So is it these four things or is it d and together now? all of the above That is for good reasons to use wordpress to build your site Plus we have not a lot of talking This particular image on the screen is a pink ribbon that has Pearls on it and it's on a website That is breast cancer awareness And this image was placed in the content when they were giving away pearls as part of a campaign So the alt description on this particular item is a pink ribbon with Embellished with pearls because it fit the content Another place on the website they changed the alt text because It didn't fit the content and they wanted it to fit the content which is appropriate Now in order to do that they couldn't do it in the media library They had to go through a text field where the alt description was And manually change it for that other page Because it was important to them that they wanted to make sure that the images fit the content and the alt description also did AI is also good at doing captions for our video We can caption live speaking events. We can caption videos Doing so not only is now a requirement for a lot of videos But it also relates to the image and brand of your client if they put videos on their website How well done those captions are says a lot about that client and how well you do that for the client Says a lot about the services you offer Now my name is Sumner. That's s-u-m n-e-r And many times AI has said my name is summer with an m2m And I must say I'm not a season It is also said I am some turf Which I think is Fort somewhere in the south Where some war was There you go. See that's not me either It is also called me thumper Which I know is a rabbit in a disney movie, but I also know that there's a video game from the 60s or 70s called thumper But my favorite Is it calls me thunder Now I know at times that I do get loud and people have commented when I get excited that I do but come on This one's just rude So AI does its part, but seldom does it get my name correctly and I personally think I have an easy name So when you think about what AI will do to your client's voice to the words that they speak in their videos, it's important A few years ago, we had a presidential inauguration in the united states and Amanda Gordon read one of her poems What she said was a country bruised but whole Benevolent but bold and those of you in the room can see that that is not what AI said It said is bruised but whole whole Benevolence but bold fierce and now it is kind of amusing Except to someone who really relies upon captioning So if a deaf person wanted to know what she really said That was not it And we have to be careful if that's the way AI is hearing the voices some of our clients May not like that either So in a live presentation We want to make sure and we are very fortunate that we have white coat captioning that is doing live Transcript today for you So we have a human That is capturing our words So we won't have those kind of mistakes If you are a person that likes to sing along with music and you like the lyrics Well, don't ask AI to give you the words to root off the red nose reindeer Because what it says on here in the english language i'll say that read can be read and it can be read So we'll give them that but when it says Read off the rent those reindeer I think it's way off base So here's where it you could use AI to begin with But now hopefully you're seeing that human Needs to get in there and make some changes AI is also what runs the automatic checkers that so many people use to test websites for accessibility And on the screen, I have an image of What looks like a stamp that says test passed But those that can see this image can see that there's some pieces missing from it The words kind of aren't filled in all the way it's kind of scratchy It's just not as crisp as you would expect for something that it just passed So what that is telling me is that AI is not 100% In fact yesterday when I was in the contributors day at the accessibility table There was a person sitting next to me who shared an article That the government in the uk ran a test on the 10 most popular automatic web accessibility testers And they wrote a blog report on their results So What do you think was the highest level of finding? Oh wait, let me tell you They wanted to make sure that it was a fair test So they created a web page with 148 errors Intentionally created these errors. They knew what they were and they knew That they should be easy to find So of all of these 10 automatic accessibility checkers some names some of you may know and use What do you think was the highest level of success? Anyone 70 you said thank you, but 30 close That highest level of accuracy was 40 percent It got as low as 19 percent And these were common errors Errors that they knew would be found in almost every one of their government websites So they were appalled to find out that AI could not find them This is why if you use an automatic tester to test your website You need to include persons with disabilities The statement that nothing about us without us Means that if you're going to build a website that's accessible and you want to make sure that it is Let us test it and tell you I feel very fortunate that I have a team of people that work with me And many members of that team Are persons with disabilities So they will give me up close personal Experience feedback as to whether or not what we created is actually working So one of my associates is blind and he will test with the JAWS screen reader And he will give me feedback as if he went to that website For the purpose of buying or using or gaining information from whatever was posted there And he will tell me how easy was it able to navigate Did it recognize The code to tell him what was the most important thing on the page the h1 Did it tell him how many h2s were on the page all the subheadings Was he able to get to the various content that he wanted and use the forms If not then we need to fix it where the AI may have told us it was okay Always good He will also tell me if the alt text descriptions were sufficient for the content on the page AI will not tell us that it will tell us there is text and text description But not if it's good If it fits the content of the page So we must have the human get involved To let us know that we're doing it right and we're on the right path When we want to include web accessibility in our satchel and in our toolbox what we're offering our clients It is very important that what we offer them reduce so with integrity that we are able to tell them. Yes This site has been Tested looked at overseen participated in By persons with disability the users that are going to access your website And so now I I know that at this point people go. Well, I don't know anybody. Where am I going to find these people? Well, while you're here at word camp you could kind of meet a few people and we will tell you where we find disabled workers to Work on websites with us or you could go to a company site called nobility. That's k-n-o-w b-i-l-i-t-y They have an entire division where they employ persons with disabilities for the purpose of testing and assisting with remediation of websites So that now you don't have to employ additional people But you certainly can have additional people be employed because you use their services This is very important my company The majority of our clients are brought to us by attorneys Attorneys who are representing companies who have either received a demand letter or are Negotiating a legal settlement Because their website was not accessible So even though it's not on my list of how I present web accessibility. It's how I spend most of my day I'm a specialist in web accessibility. I do not call myself an expert I personally believe that an expert has all the answers or a whole lot more than I do However, because this is what I specialize in I know where to get an answer So I don't have to fill my brain because if my brain gets too full it falls out the other side So I do keep people close at hand that can help me when I need an answer So I want to share with you quickly The top three things you may not have thought about that we see most often come across Some of these cases now. I know when I was talking to someone earlier He said, oh, it's always color contrast and I am here to say no, it's not Although color contrast comes in a lot of the time and it appears that web designers are now Paying more attention to it. What comes in more often than anything is the structure of the website The structure of the website That is not accessible to a person who does not use a mouse Can someone go through that website using only the tab key on their keyboard and you can test that very simply You go to your browser bar Where your url is go to the end of your url and hit the tab key on your keyboard And keep hitting it and see where it goes. Does it follow the flow of your website? Does it land where you are expecting it to land? Does it go from left to right from top to bottom? Sorry, I just hit my microphone If it does yay, if it does not Then you need to revisit How you structured your website Are your headings in order? Do you have proper navigation? We have found in our cases a number of sites That the tab will go to a navigation But if there's drop down and it goes to the first one on the drop down You should be able to hit your space bar and have it launch that To the wherever that link is supposed to go if it doesn't That needs to be fixed. That is the one we see the most The other one we also see is if the tab lands on a form And it gets stuck. We call that a keyboard trap The one that we find the most is when you have those dates that have that carousel And you have to find the date for your month your date your year. I don't like those because I am spinning Forever to find the year I was born And at the same time however For someone using a keyboard it can be trapped. They can get stuck there and never get out of that field So unless you can find a way to fix that on your website Don't put it there Give the user the opportunity to manually enter That date or the time or whatever it is you were using that carousel for originally if we find that There is a problem with the keyboard excuse me keyboard only navigation That's going to be on every single one of your pages in your website. So it's quite Global and serious if they cannot access your home page How are they going to access any of the information within your website? And this is what we find is in a lot of the cases Sometimes it's easy for us to fix by getting rid of a particular plugin they may be using for a menu And finding another one that's better Sometimes we have to manually have them rewrite their menu So it really depends on how they built the site either way. We've got to take it apart to fix it The other thing we see a lot The issues with is the headings and design and what I have on the screen is Cement blocks in a path in the grass I personally suggest that the people that work for me before they start working on a website they plan it They know what's the most important information they want to convey. That's our header What's the second most what supports that header? What our h2 is going to be and do we have information that supports those sub headers? That would be an h3 we plan it in advance and That same plan applies to all pages If we have not planned out our h1s h2s h3s and so forth I saw a site that came across my desk just before I left for this trip And they had their h1 probably about two-thirds the way down the page On the next page they had eight of them And when I asked why and in between these h1s they had a few h6s And I asked why and the designer said well, it's in the style sheet If I want that size font And that look well, then that's what the style sheet says So I'd like to suggest to not be controlled by your style sheet That do not use it to style and design your website you can change What those h1s h2 fonts and such are in your style sheet, but don't let it control you You are the one that determines what that styling is and make it consistent That also brings in the design and the colors you use and the layout We have a site we're working on right now that every page gives the impression. It's a different website They thought it was cool It gave me a headache Be consistent in your design so someone knows they're still on your site And by doing so you make it easy for the user to get the information they came for And follow the path Some of you may be aware that there is a report. It's called the pound away report. You can google it It was done by a uk company And they found through all of their studies and statistics that over 60 Of people will bounce from a website Within the first four seconds if it's not accessible So if you have an e-commerce site and somebody lands because they want to buy a product But in that first four seconds they can't navigate They're gone your client has a very high bounce rate and a very low sales rate If you have a site that's informational and they cannot get to where they think they need to be on that site in the first Four minute four seconds. They're gone That's a very high bounce So if you want people to stay on your site make it a design That makes it easy Make a path. So when they land, where do you want them to go? What is the user experience? What do you hope they want to accomplish when they land there? Are they looking for answers and information make it easy to find If they want to buy a product make it easy for them to find the product find the product description get it into the card and check out Play customer and see what obstacles you may find This is also another area where it's essential to have a person with a disability Test that portion of your site e-commerce sites Are kind of in the target right now because they're so popular and people really need the information But if they can't buy what they're trying to buy when they get to the site, they're gonna bounce Make it easy for them to find what they want to buy Have a person with a disability Go to the site try to buy something And tell you what obstacles they had to overcome to do so I believe I've spoken fast, but I promise that they would be 10 things that I would suggest that you do Accessibility should be at the top of the list. It should be baked into your website It should be part of your plan. It should be everything that you do with a website should have accessibility in mind I do suggest that you go visit the w3.org and take that free class that's so essential And remember nothing about us without us include persons with disabilities in the work that you do Double check the use of your ai On your alt text make sure that your descriptions fit your content Unless it's decorative and then make it so Make sure that your captions are Correct and a friend of mine called meryl evans who is deaf has coined the phrase Corruptions because if they're not correct they pretty much that's what they are So make sure that your captions are correct Even though I will answer to thunder It's not my name Do more than auto checkers. They're great to start, but don't let them be the end of what you do Make sure your structure is correct Make sure that a person with a keyboard only can access your website Test it for yourself Make sure your design is consistent I suggest that you join the make dot wordpress.org and contribute This is not a place that you go post a question and get help and answers But it is a place that you have knowledge and expertise to be able to share With others as well Is a place though if you want to get answers you can go peruse What people have posted and you might find what you're looking for but it's not a help desk But it is an opportunity to contribute to wordpress So you go into make dot wordpress dot org and you look at all the available committees And see the one that you'd like to participate in If you really want to learn how to do captions, I suggest you go to wordpress dot tv Pull up a video or two. There are instructions on the website how to do captions for wordpress tv There's videos there that have been there for so long that they were never captioned And so that means that certain people cannot watch those videos Be part of the contribution and go and help by making those captions You will learn after doing it a couple of times the easiest way to do it But there are instructions step by step right there on wordpress.tv to do just that So of all of this that I had said You too can be a web accessibility superhero It's not that difficult and it's a whole lot of fun I met someone last night and he said if you had three takeaways from what you're going to share today What would you like people to remember and I said well after pondering I would suggest you commit to web accessibility Make it important Secondly, do it ethically Don't be the person just throws in a plug-in Or something else and tells the client that's as good as it gets and please now that I've told you that the ai is not Going to do the job for you don't promise a client a hundred percent And certainly don't guarantee And third have fun Web accessibility can be fun. You're making the internet better for everyone And you will be a person that is Standing apart from the crowd You will gain new clients and fun clients when they know that what you offer is inclusive You may not know that certain clients have a disability Because some disabilities are not visible I have a client that they wanted to change the colors on their website And I said you really can't do that because the contrast is really bad and he said this is what I want I said okay So we walked around his office with my laptop asking various people. What do you think of these new colors? Okay, everybody gave their input. We walked into his partner's office and his partner said stop. Don't ask me I'm colorblind He didn't even know that his own partner was colorblind And when I showed him the contrast on the colors he wanted to select his own partner would not have been able to read What was on his website? So he would have disabled his partner And his partner's access to that website So you will get the opportunity to educate clients in a way that no one else will Be their advocate as well Make sure that when you make their website accessible It's because you want them to succeed The better their website is The more users that it will attract and users that will come back They will be happy with you If you put them in a position Where they don't get the results that they want they will not be happy with you But they are according to the web aim report over 95 of the websites could use your help So the wonderful opportunity to make a difference I gave my gratitude at the beginning But I have this slide up here at the end as well because I'm very grateful to be here and be able to talk about web accessibility And I haven't seen a sign come up yet. So I'm assuming that I have time for questions if someone has a question Yes Do we have a microphone or can you yell out? Okay I'm just uh curious if you're aware what what is the most common screen reader at the time that um people Who are visually impaired are using um Back in the day when I first started building websites, you had to buy this very expensive thing and Are there um tools people are using now that aren't so expensive that are built into os's Great question and thank you for asking and here's where I'm glad that we had live captioning because up here I could not hear what she was saying But I could look at the screen And white coat made sure they understood you correctly So she asked about the screen readers the jaws was the first one that I was introduced to that was introduced to my family And it is the one that you do pay for However nvda is a free download you can go to nvda. You can download it to your computer And by doing so you can test it out for yourself and see what it sounds like you can go through the adjustments of the sound and the speed Most of the people that I'm associated with that use a screen reader on a regular basis They speak have the sound very fast. The voice is speaking very fast faster than I can understand But they do and that's all that is important But you can see the controls that they have for their screen reader There's also the Ones that are built into the accessibility features on your android and your iphone Because they have been upgraded to include accessibility you can use those to check out Your mobile placement of your website. How is it functioning on mobile devices? You can also get nvda for mobile So you can see if a person is using a screen reader separate from the one that's built into the phone Or the tablet and like I said, it's a no charge unless you want to give them a donation, which is always great And so, uh, there's that I've also been asked from time to time the font that I use on my slides is called Acacin hyper legible And acacin is an organization For the blind and the reason that I choose the font it has the appropriate spacing The appropriate size and all of the letters are very clear that you can read them So when you choose a font You want to make sure that as many people as possible can read that font And I've received a lot of comments by using this font that it is readable and it's not harsh on the eyes Yes, sir awesome question I don't see that it came on the microphone. So i'm going to attempt to repeat your question Okay, you were asking about carousels And when something changes images from one image to the next Or when it changes one text to the next Okay, carousels Can be problematic And the reason that the problematic is first off according to the wikag standards We need to be able for the person to stop That carousel So that someone that needs to see what it's on the screen they have the choice For it to be there longer most carousels don't have that feature Most carousels become decorative images because There's no alt description for the images. So a screen reader misses them entirely Most carousels that i've seen done by plugins are not accessible by keyboard only So you have a large chunk of your website That your user cannot access If there's a way that you can take the information in that carousel and put it in your content You will find a greater benefit from it Also, there are times that people move the carousel so fast That no one can really absorb what was there. That's a cognitive issue Anyone with a cognitive disability is going to bounce That's also disruptive if there's somebody that has long covet right now Many of them have a cognitive disability that they cannot tolerate something changing rapidly on a website And they will bounce so we have a new segment of disability So why would you want a carousel? What are you wanting to accomplish? You want to show multiple images of a facility and the purpose is Aesthetic so you want people to be wowed by these images Okay, so you don't want them to know what else is on the website Do you want them to sit there and watch this little movie of changing images? Hmm When we choose something on our website, let's look at the value The value to the greatest number of users And let's just take it out of the equation. Let's say they had nothing to do with accessibility Is that what you want your users to be focused on when they get there and nothing else? Just look at all these pretty pictures sliding by Not now when you think about it In addition to But where do you usually place the carousel? Isn't it in the hero section? Okay, so when they land on your website, that's what they get If it's not accessible, that's when they leave So all that great information you wanted to absorb there must be a better way to present it Of course, of course we get these requests from clients I remember requests I would get from clients and they would say I want you to take the underlying out of those links It's ugly And I'd go no it's not Because if a client talks to me that way, I just kind of mimic it back But I tell them that it is essential that we have those links underlined For accessibility and so when a keyboard lands on those it also have additional focus So no, we're not taking the links out, but I'll make your website layout Attractive enough that you'll like those underlines on links So I think clients need us to educate them that yeah, that's a great idea. Can I make it better? Can I take your idea and make it better so the users on your website Do what you want when they get there You're welcome. Yes, ma'am The captioner did not get your question. So I will try to repeat what I think I heard You are talking about a browser when you launch your computer You open up in microsoft edge And you get what looks like a news layout of a lot of different sections I personally don't use microsoft edge. So I can't give you personal feedback on that But here's a couple of things I do know Microsoft is a big company microsoft has a very strong dedication to accessibility Microsoft has also said in several of their presentations that if it's not working now it will be That if we have created something that has a barrier let us know we will do something about it They have a real commitment So I can't answer to it because I personally don't experience it. I don't go to microsoft edge But I would say That microsoft has someone that would know that answer Since it's their product You're welcome. Thank you for asking Did I need to see another hand? I know we're down to the last few minutes I don't want to miss anyone if you come up with a question afterwards feel free my contact information is on the screen Please send me a tweet send me an email follow me on linkedin Linkedin is an excellent place to find persons who are disabled who are willing to test and work with you on your website Linkedin is an excellent place to find individuals that are dedicated to web accessibility And you can network with them. So I encourage you to do that And if you have a question you may also send me an email I will answer as promptly as I possibly can But I really appreciate all that you've been here and I appreciate all of your questions