 You can now follow me on all my social media platforms to find out who my latest guest will be and don't forget to click the subscribe button and the notifications bell so you are notified for when my next podcast goes live. But the reality is he'd done what he'd done, but the punishment was going to end his career. The punishment would have ended his career. The punishment would have, he would never afford the Europeans. Without fighting in the Europeans, he couldn't afford the Olympics, etc, etc. When we're in court, it will be all guns blazing. You know, I'll be on, I'll be putting on a show. You will not think for a moment that I have a single doubt in your innocence. I said, but between these four walls, I am also obliged to tell you the truth. And you are, you have no chance. You just don't have any chance of winning this. I was put into a murder in the Old Bailey. It was three and a half months. I was the youngest person in my, I mean, I was 23. We've, we're all being tracked daily. You don't walk more than 30 meters about being recorded on the camera in this country. I had to go and say to him, you've got no defense. You're looking at about 17 years. And I was thinking, how's he going to react to that? I mean, what, what, how's he going to react to that news? Peterfield is a sexuality. It can't be cured. So by its very definition, they are always a danger. Always. That's never changing. And boomerang. Today's guest, we've got Tony Kent. Tony Boy, how are you? Thanks very much for having me. Yeah. Thanks for coming on. So talk class barrister. You work with all the biggest cases in the UK. We're more so London, but yeah, you're pretty much all round. All round the year. Book offer as well. Yeah. Got your fifth book, I believe. We've got four books here. We've got Mark for death, killer intent, power play, no way to die fiction, partly. All completely fiction apart. Well, this one here, the second one, Mark for death, is that's kind of a what if that's something that almost happened. And the rest of them completely made up. Interestingly, when I first wrote the first one, say interestingly, you can decide that. When I read the first, what wrote the first one, I gave it to the publishers. And there's a cross examination in there. It's not a legal thriller, but one of the characters is a barrister. And someone here, they say right what you know. So I wrote about a barrister and he ended up going off and doing these ridiculous things and nothing like what a barrister does. But when you meet him, he's in a court case. And when I gave the book to the publishers, they gave it back and said, we really love the book, but that court case is ridiculous. That would never happen. And I said to them, it's actually word for word, something that happened three years ago. It's a cross examination that I did three years ago. Word for word. The rest of the book is completely made up. But that cross examination wasn't. And they maybe changed it. I still had to change it because they said people just won't believe it. Too far faced. Yeah. That people would think it was fake. I just interviewed the kid. Ward Dogs had made a film about him. Gun Runner. Yeah. But his partner was a nutcase. And actually watered it down because people wouldn't believe the stuff that he actually did. They would think it was fiction. Even though some of the stuff in the film, they thought it was a lie, but majority it was all true. Well, that's with Mark for Death, which is the second one. That is the only one that's, as I said, it's sensibly true. It's the only one that's not true, but it's based on something that might have happened. And it's, that's a legal thriller. The only one of them is a legal thriller. Some of them are sort of action, political sort of Lee Child, Jan Reacher kind of things. That one's about a serial killer and a trial. And the serial killer is based on a real person. 100%. I mean, if the guy ever reads it, God knows what happens to me. Luckily, he's never coming out. But that one, he genuinely, completely based on a real person. And I had to take out probably 70% of the stuff he really did. And still, when people read it, the only criticism I get is, oh, that guy's a bit unrealistic. How can he do all those things? And all you think is, he did a hell of a lot worse than that. He did a hell of a lot more than that. You've got some top-end cases, like one of the high-profile ones was Anthony Joshua, where you've saved his career. No doubt that he got a knock guilty, which we'll touch on. But before we get into everything, I'd like to go back to the start of my guess, get a bit of an understanding about you, where you grew up and how it all began. I grew up in West London. I grew up in a council estate in West London. I come from a massive Irish family. There's three hundreds of us. On one occasion, years ago, I was walking down the street and some lads were walking towards us. And my mate said hello to them. And I didn't because I didn't know who they were. And after we got past them, he turned around and said, you're not talking to your cousin Leon. So I don't have a cousin Leon. Apparently I do have a cousin Leon. We just walked past him. There's literally over 100 first cousins. My mum was one of 17. So I come from this massive Irish family, all brought up in West London. And I was brought up in a council estate. And the reason that I went into what I did, the reason I became a barrister was because my brother, my oldest brother, has been in and out of prison for the last five years. I think he's been quite good. But before that, Tilly was about 45 in and out of prison, 17 years old to 45. And I went to watch him when he was on trial once. And it's the only time we ever went to watch him. And the reason we went to watch him was he hadn't done this. He actually was innocent of this one. And the reason we knew that is because the police had lied and pretended they'd found stuff in my mum and dad's house. Now, whatever my brother was, he was shit scared of my mum. And so there is no way he'd have had anything in the house. And they were there when the search was carried out. So they know nothing was found. So the police were lying. And on that one occasion, we went to support him. On every other occasion, we knew that he was guilty. And yeah, we were under no illusions about him. But on that one occasion, we went to support him and I got about 15 minutes into the trial before I completely forgot my brother was there and I was just completely taken with this barrister and what he was doing. And over three days, before they ever got to a jury, over three days, he had all of the evidence kicked out as inadmissible when he proved every single piece of dishonesty that they pulled. And I remember walking away from that. So I think I was 14 years old, walking away and saying to my mum, that's what I want to do. But when I said that to her, she said, that's great. That's really good. That's a good ambition to have. Don't tell anyone because they're going to laugh at you. Because back then, we just imagined being a barrister was like trying to become Pope. It's just, it wasn't for people from our background. How were you at school, Tony? Especially if your brother's came down that life of crime and for you not to go down the same path as him. Like, how were you? Did you see yourself slipping to go down? It's not like you say, it's not to put people down, but did you know I don't want that life when you watched him? I did. I hesitate to say that in any forum that he might see because he will take that as credit and he'll start telling me that I owe him. Because he's just that kind of character. But yeah, I did. I saw that. I saw that as the thing, that wasn't the way to go. A big part of it, several things, a big part of it was I just didn't want to do that to my mum. I saw how much that destroyed her. I was five years younger than him. We've got a brother in between and we've got some behind. But I watched that. And I was just at the right age to not want someone to upset my mum. And actually, I think that my, the way I reacted to that barrister was I think probably about my mum as well. It was probably the way she'd reacted to him and how grateful she was. And it's almost like a superhero coming in and saving her son. And so yeah, that was a big part of it. I was quite bright. I did quite well without trying. I did spend quite a lot of my, what should have been GCSE years, pushing tarmac, wheelbarrows, and climbing up ladders and doing roofing and all that stuff because it was expected in our family that we would finish school at 15, 16, go off and work for dad or work with dad or work for dad and we'd all learn to be builders, which is what the rest of the family did. And that was fully what I intended to do. And then I got my GCSEs and they were quite good without really trying. And it was at that point that I thought, maybe I should give this a go. Maybe I should try. So then I did my A-levels and ended up not trying that hard again but trying a bit harder. I did very well at the A-levels and at which point I got to 18 and mum said, maybe you should do that barrister thing, give it a go because if you're getting to this point without much effort, then a bit of effort might make all the difference. So that was a big factor. I was lucky that I was bright. I mean, it's just pure luck. That's why I don't mind saying it because otherwise it sounds a bit arrogant, isn't it? But I was just lucky that way. And boxing. Boxing was a huge part of it. I'm a big believer that if you can give kids a direction, then that's great. If you can give kids a direction that outlets all the testosterone that's teeming through you when you're growing up and being a teenager, that's even better. So I look at my eldest brother. He went the way he went. I look at my next eldest brother and you think he didn't do the same things. He learned some lessons from his older brother but at the same time, still didn't go where he would probably want to have gone now when you're looking back. And I just think the difference between this was boxing because while they were out on the streets and in pubs and fighting in pubs and doing all these different things, I was in a boxing club and I was training and I think that gave me the direction that I otherwise wouldn't have had. I think that's important for kids is to learn some sort of combat with boxing, karate, mixed martial arts that whatever it is to it keeps you... I don't know, you've got to learn when you speak to the people I've spoke to, you tend to... a lot of their lives pathed out with their younger years and I think having some sort of combat skills teaches you not to be... I wouldn't say it'd be a man but it just gives you an extra bit of purpose. A lot of people, the angriest people I know is because it's their scared. I believe anyway it's because they're scared. What's the steps to become a barrister? What do you need to do? When I did it, they've changed it ever so slightly now but when I did it, you went to university which I went to Dundee University where they teach English law weirdly even though Scottish law and English law is completely different. I went to university at Dundee, did four years at university, then you come down and you go to what we used to call Bar School. I think they still call it that but the qualification's got a different name. Bar School is in my opinion a complete and utter waste of time because then you go off and you do pupillage and pupillage is basically an apprenticeship and that's where you learn your job. So you learn a lot of the law theoretically and the surrounding things at university. You go to Bar School and you get taught by a fair number of failed barristers how to probably not do your job properly could explain why they're now teaching in Bar School and I'll be in trouble for saying that but I'm sorry it's true. I gave up Bar School. I started in October. I stopped going at Christmas because they were teaching us crap and we had all the books and so I just said you know what I'm going to go and earn some money pay for this shit and I'll teach myself which is what I did and then after that you go to the thing that matters which is the apprenticeship stage which is pupillage. That lasts a year. The first half of it the first six months you follow a particular barrister. I was extremely lucky with the barrister I was given my pupil master for a number of reasons he's exceptionally good we got on exceptionally well he's still my best mate even now 20 years down the line we're actually in a trial together I'll be seeing him in about an hour and a half back in Reading and more than anything my mind works in a very particular way which isn't quite how most barristers work and so does his so just by pure fluke there's maybe sort of 10% of barristers who work a little bit differently to others and he happens to be one of them and happens to be one of the best of them and I was lucky enough to get him follow him around for six months and learn and see that actually all those weird ideas that I was having about cases I wasn't alone and you can apply things and look at things in a certain way and then go on and do it successfully so I learned from him but I was very lucky because because I'd come from the council instead I'd gone to Dundee not even English to do English law everything I did was you was outwardly wrong really and I thought you know as we all think I thought well the bar is all about Eaton it's all about Harrow it's all about very very and Oxbridge and none of the top places are going to want me i.e. the top chambers and so I didn't apply to any of the top chambers back then after that you had chambers like Matrix and you know they got they got names now but they didn't have names back then back then they all had an address so where they were based was the name of the chambers top chambers were Three Hair Court so I thought not applying to them Red Lion Court didn't apply to them few others but Three Hair Court was man united as was and I didn't apply to them because they would never consider me I applied to Two Bedford Row I got an interview at Two Bedford Row I turned up to the Two Bedford Row interview thinking I've never heard of these guys so who really cares and breezed the interview completely it's as relaxed as we are now rather than all nervous because I'm talking to Man United and it turned out that they were Three Hair Court and they just moved and I didn't know so I'd applied to the very very top set in the country by pure fluke because they had moved the dress about six months earlier and I wasn't up on my research and they took me on and I ended up going there doing my pupil who's there I spent the pupil who's last a year and they took me on and I spent 12 years there before moving on and doing my own thing so Scotland I think law school and I think seven years I think you've got lawyers I think you've got QC's judges, lords what's the difference with barristers in England what's the difference between England and Scotland we make the split much earlier in Scotland everyone becomes a solicitor not everyone, every lawyer not just everyone down the road but everyone becomes a solicitor and then the ones who are more inclined towards trialing the ones who are more inclined towards either a particular specialism or being an advocate will then qualify as an advocate but that comes later over here we're more of the kind of GP surgeon route so a solicitor will normally be a master of Jack of all trades and these days much more they become a master of one in a way they didn't used to but it used to be that generally they would be a bit of a jack of all trades you'd go to a solicitor they could do your conveyancing they could do your personal injury they could do your trespass they could do your crime it's not quite as simple as that now but that's how it was for generations and generations a barrister is a complete specialist they specialize in their area of law if their area of law is crime like mine then they're also a specialist advocate so I'm a jury lawyer my job is to stand up and talk to juries it's also to stand up and talk to judges I'm better at the juries than I am at the judges some lawyers would be completely the opposite of that so it's really the distinction is basically surgeon GP you go to a solicitor with your problem if it's a problem up to a certain point they will solve your problem once it goes beyond that point they will refer you to the surgeon which is the barrister to then deal with the more serious acute problem what was it like doing your first case your first trial the first trial I did is not the first trial I prepared for the first trial I prepared for was on my very first day so I did my six months following Craig Craig the pupil master around and then on the Monday morning I was supposed to be caught to represent some guy for jumping the barriers at where was he Stratford Stratford Station as was and for a guy I just watched Craig defending major criminals for six months major criminals major crime murder everything and my first case I found myself preparing more than I would see him prepare for one of those because you just get into this rabbit hole of I've got to be ultra prepared which is a huge mistake I prepped that got to court guy turns up that's not me that's not you that fellas in his fifties yeah so I'm only 23 no you're not you're 55 I'm 23 and it turns out over the course of the next couple of minutes that he's completely insane completely mad so my first what should have been my first trial became with my first having someone sectioned for his own for his own safety because he was in he'd gone to a point and it just tips over the edge at some point before the trial whether it was the day before there was a month before he was now dangerous to himself and to others so the first trial I should have done I ended up with a guy being sectioned the first trial I did do I can't remember I'll be honest why but my first three of my first three or four trials I am massively over prepared all of them which is not my way I'm not a big I obviously prepare but I'm not an over prepareer I'm a retrocut preparer the way some people are I react I'm much more reactive instinctive and that's what I mean about the 10% of barristers you work a bit differently I'm much more reactive much more instinctive naturally but I suppressed that and over prepared everything and I screwed them all up one after the other after the other I was just terrible at all of them because it just wasn't for me and then I was in chambers over preparing I think my sixth one when my pupil master and he saw I was doing he saw how much I was writing he saw how much I'd written and he said right leave all about there we're going to the pub and went to the pub and he got me completely and utterly wasted completely to the extent I woke up on his living room floor about half six the following morning in my suit and I had to be in court at nine and I'd done nothing apart from that stuff the night before which wasn't you know I was over preparing so much that all that work was on one witness out of six and I then went to court it was sitting magistrates in bank I went to court had to do it off the cuff had to do it instinctively won the case and realized that's where I've been going wrong so in my mind that's my first case but I know I lost six before that so it's important to not going raw but not going too prepared where it's like me doing interviews as well I don't have questions I feel as if I've tried having questions there and that kind of throws off what anybody is saying because when you're talking I'm thinking about the questions down here instead of just engaging in what you're saying which makes a huge difference the other day I stood up in front of the jury the other day I made an hour and a half speech the first 15 minutes of it were not great and they weren't great because I was trying to read it and I was concentrating going back to the points because there were certain points I really wanted to make and for whatever reason I don't know why but for whatever reason I just got into my head I didn't want to miss these points I convinced myself I was going to miss them so I had them all written and after 15 minutes just closed the laptop just put it down and just spoke to them for the next hour and 15 minutes didn't miss any of the points and it was far better and far more engaging because it was just me being myself and absolutely right a lot of people can be that way there was another chap in the same trial he made a speech that he clearly read out he'd obviously written it word for word it was well timed, it was well judged and it was him because that's just how he works there's no criticism of anyone that they were that way it's just what works for the person but you've got to make sure you find out what works for you because if you're kidding yourself that something works for you that really doesn't that's where the problem hits What was your first high profile case? First high profile case was a murder that I did almost immediately after getting taken on I was put into a murder in the Old Bailey it was three and a half months I was the youngest person, I mean I was 23 it was not on a killing it was a tralanking gang they had allegedly killed this chap because he'd upset one of their uncles he'd disrespected one of their uncles so he was corralled they basically corralled him to a point in an estate and not they but someone beat him to death with cricket bats hockey sticks so that was quite a high profile at the time it was 20 years ago the interesting thing about that is that's a case that actually ended up lasting 10 years because I did that trial I was the junior on that trial in murders and bigger trials you'll have a leading barrister and a junior barrister and I'm not going to lie I should not have been the junior on that barrister at that stage of my career I didn't contribute anything basically I was there every day I was taking a note the poor man that was leading me a great barrister called Michael Haynes was effectively doing the case by himself you shouldn't have a kid on a case like that and that was the first time round then we got an appeal and it was the conviction was overturned and they were tried again so second time round I was led by QC and I won't name him because he was never there and I don't want to sort of name him shame but he was never there six days of a three month trial so I basically did that trial myself and we lost again but the difference in that time so I think it was six years later the difference between the kid who had done that at that point and then doing it again six years later and the result was the same was was incredible we ended up appealing it again and it was overturned again and there was an order that would be known retrial so everyone who was convicted has been convicted twice and then had their conviction crossed twice in that particular trial but it was the first big one that I did so even you go through a court case and you're up late and you're trying to get the right result, how hard is it when you lose is that a personal thing or is it just work I can take it a bit personally I'll be honest though it depends how much I've convinced myself we've won by the time I make a speech I am very convinced of my case and it's kind of a psychological thing I have to be very convinced of my case to make that speech because I make speeches in a very particular way I don't like to talk out a jury a lot of people will talk as a jury I like to talk to a jury and a lot of eye contact a lot of engagement, a lot of I like to bring their attention to the defendants a lot they should never forget that those men there their lives are in their hands and they should not forget that and so I do a lot of engagement with that and the only way to do that is to really believe in your case but I'm not going to lie the moment my ass touches the seat if I'm real then the realism does come back in and suddenly it's like well that went well but whereas other times you'll think that went really well and he should be acquitted in those second circumstances I can take it fairly hard I've defended two people in my career that I think I know absolutely were innocent and it doesn't mean that the others weren't but I think I'm 100% sure these two men were innocent and one of them was convicted and went to prison for 18 months I took that one particularly hard because I genuinely believe that he hadn't done it What happens if somebody comes in all the evidence you're defending somebody that is blatantly guilty but they still want to go through you know they're going to get done you know a lot of ego can kick in a lot of pride that they don't want to bow down to the system is that a difficult one as well you know it's easier the pressure's off because I will have told them categorically the words that I basically use is not a script but the words that I generally use I'll say look when we're in court it will be all guns blazing I'll be putting on a show you will not think for a moment that I have a single doubt in your innocence but between these four walls you're so obliged to tell you the truth and you are you have no chance you just don't have any chance of winning this etc etc I've been wrong I've told people that they've fought it and they've won rarely but it has happened but generally you'll sit down and say you've just got no chance this case the other thing that I say to them is getting you the best result doesn't always mean not guilty getting you the best result in some circumstances means getting you the best sentence get you realistic and then see what we can do with the facts to demonstrate that you might be guilty but you're not as guilty as they say and therefore your culpability is lower and so your sentence is lower and in a lot of cases in maybe the majority of cases that's the right approach see with the recall of the final speech when you do the talk the closing speech so see the closing speech is that a big part of the jury making the decision or is that they've already made a decision like how big is that speech for me in my cases I think it's fundamental because that's how I approach a case everything that I do in a case I see every single question that I ask is a brick that allows me to build a bit more of that speech so I have a case theory in my head I work towards that case theory occasionally something will happen in the trial that will throw the case theory off and you have to throw those bricks away to make a different war but generally everything I do is to allow me to make the best possible speech and I do think that it's one of the big fundamental features in cases that I do there are others I mean how well your defendant does in a witness box is crucial whether you even put the defendant in the witness box is crucial it used to be that the general rule was if you don't have to you don't put them anywhere near a witness box because the cliche was your case is at its best before they go in it never gets better after they go in and that's still kind of true but we I mean even look at what we're doing now and think about social media and think about all of the things we tell everyone what we have for dinner now we tell everyone the books we've read we tell everyone I just saw this film here's my opinion we're all sharing everything now and if you are alleged to have done something serious getting in and share we now live in a society where I believe a jury look at that and think that's a bit weird so where it's 20 years ago 21 years ago you would generally not put someone in now I think it's sometimes a mistake to not put someone in because I think the society's changed and we're such sharers the English and the British never used to be sharers we used to keep stuff to ourselves I'm still inclined to keep things to myself but most people aren't do you think mobile phones have made your job easier, harder with people being tracked and messages infinitely harder more convictions with mobile phones I've found the whole the whole stuff about the Covid vaccine hilarious they're putting that in your body so they know where you are we're all walking around with the world's best tracking device in our pocket it's absolutely if so don't need an isotope in your blood we're all being tracked daily you don't walk more than 30 meters about being recorded on the camera in this country I don't think the people in this country realise quite how much compared to other countries we're tracked it makes everywhere else including even China look positively liberal 30 meters maximum if you are in any form of city or even any town you're on a video camera but that just doesn't matter your mobile phone will convict you every time it will convict you every single time if you don't know what to do about it and without giving a lesson on what you should do about a mobile phone it's a killer it's an absolute killer and when we get round mobile phone evidence in a K the thing with mobile phone evidence also is perceptions you add that and then you add in perceptions from TV I know CSI is not on anymore but all those kinds of shows especially when CSI was on that was a terrible time there was that sort of 5 year period where CSI was massive and when that was going on you had to explain to every single jury you can't zoom in none of those things they do really work so stop asking you have letters coming from the jury could we zoom in on this photograph well you can but all you'll see is pixels because they see it on there and obviously they'll zoom in and suddenly it'll be really clear it's not how digital photography works but going back to the mobile phone it's the perceptions of it as well so a jury will think a mobile phone can tell you can zoom in and if I had my mind over there at the moment if it was sitting in my pocket they would think they could placement this table a mobile phone is actually much better at telling you where the where the user of the phone not a person because you don't know who's using it there's a lot of other evidence you need to bring in for that but a mobile phone is very good at telling you where someone's not but actually working out where someone is is much more difficult if you look think about this circle on this table what a mobile mask does if this is the mask in the middle you've got three sectors they're called azimuths you have a sector there azimuth there and azimuth there and azimuth there almost like a CND batch and all they can do is say are you in that sector within five kilometers of that mask maximum five kilometers about it that's all they can do now that is actually enough if you're tracking someone if you're following them from X to Y and they live at X and Y is where it takes place well then that becomes evidence but actually it's nowhere near as strong as people think it is so mobile phones are terrible for the defense of crimes that have actually occurred but maybe that's the point maybe they should be from a point of view of society not as effective as people think they are and that's what makes them even harder is that people think that they can show a lot more than they can so they do make things harder but actually perception of them makes it even harder because they're not actually as effective as you think Anthony Joshua, heavyweight champion of the world kid from London, phenomenal career what he's achieved is unbelievable he's fighting against Klitschko one of the best I've ever seen that he came from a started boxing late but we all know now we get charged with weed I think and you represented him in that case you saved the guy's life and he's probably as thankful for it I'd imagine but how did that case come about? because of my past in boxing and there's a solicitor that I work with all the time I refer to him as my business partner technically I shouldn't refer to him that way because we have two separate businesses that are just fairly interlinked but he's a former boxer he used to box in Scotland I used to box a lot and have a long career in boxing as well and we were introduced about by my head of chambers he was introduced to an awful lot of Barristers who claimed to have boxed they'd all basically been to boxercise so he agreed to meet me on sufferance we met each other we knew within 30 seconds of speaking that actually we both had and it was true in this case so we ended up getting on very well and over time he started giving me a lot of work because of Barrister's work comes from a solicitor he started giving me a lot of work I started sending a lot of my contacts to him to then come back to me because you can't go to a Barrister unless you go through a solicitor and we started working together a hell of a lot we were both very well known in the boxing world him more than me he was very well known in the boxing world because he did an awful lot of contract work for them now I don't know anything about contract work so I would look after people when they got in trouble either disciplinary in the sport so doping or going too far in the ring much rarer, harder to do that all getting in trouble outside but he he was approached about Josh now we'd never heard of him he'd won the ABAs at this point and I think we had heard the name but we didn't know who he was but it was in 2011 we were approached by his coach at Finchley Boxing Club and they said look we've got this kid he's got himself in trouble he could be fighting in Olympics next year but in order to qualify for the Olympics he has to fight in the Europeans and the Europeans are coming up in a few weeks and because of the trouble he can't fight in the qualifier championship until this is resolved so we got it expedited got it all sorted out as quick as we possibly could and we went to court for trial and when we went to court for trial when we went to court for trial I couldn't win the case we knew we couldn't actually win the case in the circumstances so we had a very sensible conversation with the prosecutor and a sensible conversation with the judge and the conversation we basically had was look yeah we understand that he's committed the offense we understand that it is what it is and I don't mind saying that publicly because obviously he's been very straight about himself he's on record, he's in a book otherwise I'd have to be much more circumspect but the reality is he'd done what he'd done but the punishment was going to end his career the punishment would have ended his career the punishment would have he would never have fought in the Europeans he couldn't have fought in the Olympics etc etc so on the back of all of that I just fronted that up to the judge and said the reality is we'll have to fight this case and then we'll lose this case but if he was to plead guilty to possession which obviously he's guilty of as well if he was to plead guilty of possession you could give him the harshest possible period of unpaid work it would allow him to get his license back it would allow him to fight in the Europeans it would allow him to fight in the Olympics it would allow him in his future to fight in America which he could never have done if he'd had a supply on his record it allows him to have his life it also allows him to spend 300 hours in boxing clubs in a few months time once he's famous helping kids who might otherwise be on the streets so it allows it to be paid forward and as an outcome for a case like this for a kilo of cannabis as an outcome for a case like this surely that's a far more positive outcome to society than sending him into a prison for a short amount of time ruining his future no career left surely that's better the judge agreed prosecutor ultimately agreed with some encouragement from the judge and that's the route we went down and as you say the next day Scott he listed the jumps on the train up to Cardiff got before the ABAs basically made the same submission say look he's not guilty of supply he's just guilty of possession you can give him his license back they did that he went to the Europeans, he came second but second was good enough to qualify for the Olympics and the rest is history and you mentioned the Klitschko fight he gave me ringside seats to that and I couldn't go because of a bloody family wedding I sat at the wedding watching the fights with my wife kicking me under the table I didn't go to the fight I'm at least watching the fight because they don't start boxing too late that's why I've got to give him so much credit for everything he's achieved he's just a kid from London you know yourself in these streets that's drink, drugs, violence that was the norm and to come through that and to then be champion of the world yes he's had a blip the last year gear or so but that's boxing for you especially the caliber of Boxers now and it's unbelievable what he's achieved and how much that case there is out-pathed as a whole life man it's what they call a hinge of battle moment I mean they go back to a say about what-ibs and it's a what-ib or it's a hinge of battle there's a moment you can pick it's very rare you can do it but you can see in his life you can pick that one moment that changes everything and it's that moment what was it seeing him winning the belt so that did you feel anything for that I was just another case no I did feel some I actually did feel well about that more so than any other cases simply because I got to boast about it a little bit but not going to lie but mainly because we played our part in that we actually genuinely played our part in that and what he was doing was exactly what I told the judge he would do education validation for what I said because it was right often people think we just stand up and say whatever's going to work and of course we try what we try everything we can within reason for our clients but sometimes you are telling the truth entirely so I mean there's exaggeration and there's elaboration and there's all the different things we never lie you can't lie we absolutely and people may not believe that but we don't if a client tells us they're guilty we can't represent them the rules are simple and we wouldn't take the risk of doing that for someone we don't know say well yeah you told me that but don't tell anyone you told me that because the chances are they will one day tell someone they told you that so you don't take those risks but quite often you will put across the best case scenario and to see the best case scenario especially when it is very much the best best case scenario you've ever given because it's not every day I get to stand up and say but this man could be the heavyweight champion of the world I got to say that one day and then he became that it just shows we're giving people a chance what can be done listen a lot of people get chances and let's be honest they don't why was it so much on him that he would become heavyweight champion why was there so much belief to go and try and get the right result for him to then give him the chance that why so much when it ended up working out amazingly but why him was there a feeling there was an energy connection it was almost all wrapped up in London 2012 Olympics and the belief and I'll be honest I spoke about a world heavyweight championship during my time in the court but my focus really was on the Olympics my focus really was on this is next year this is in London I knew very well from the first fight I've ever seen that he was going to get the hometown advantage and no offence to Josh he needed the hometown advantage in that first fight people often talk about the final did he win that the final could have gone either way it was subjective it was whatever and I felt he won the first fight he had against the Cuban I think he very much got a hometown decision on that and there was an expectation that that would happen if he needed one almost someone who's fated to do something and it very much and he was also a really nice guy when I met him I'll be honest we sat in Wood Green Crown Court talking boxing for hours while we were waiting for a decision to be made because I made these representations early in the morning and a barrister who's prosecuting can't just make a decision they have to go back to the CPS and the CPS have to underwrite it and confirm it and it all takes time so he and I after we'd done our bit he and I spent hours chatting I mean just chatting away and talking boxing and at one point embarrassingly now I look back on it he was telling me at this time in his career I'd had more boxing matches than him I'd fought more rounds than he had but I was still 31 not in the shape I'd had been at 21 and we were talking boxing and he was saying I've had a bit of trouble with this particular style of boxing which was basically my style of boxing and at one point I even volunteered I said come down and spar with you thank god that never happened it just didn't even because you're talking about something you'd love to get carried away that's exactly what you do come down and spar with you we'll sort that out Josh don't worry thank god that never happened he killed me so he get Charzworth's possession what happens if we get Charzworth's supply but he was Charzworth's supply that's what we got was dropped yeah but what if we get Charzworth if he'd been convicted of it there would have been no career he only got his license back because that was gone possessions one thing supply is I mean they're both crimes but one's an over criminal enterprise the other one is I'm doing something I'm not supposed to do and so in terms of if it had been supply he would never have been able to fight in America now that would have made him unattractive at that time at that time America was the place for heavyweight boxing it was changing it's still been very much Klitschkos in Germany but it was still kind of where you had your heavyweight boxing that's changed very much since then and but no one knew that change was coming no one knew that the Klitschkos thing would be the beginning of the status quo so he would have been very unattractive to any promoter and he wouldn't have obviously been coming in with a gold medal from the Olympics that's why he was so attractive so he wouldn't have had his gold medal he wouldn't have had his European silver he wouldn't have been able to fight in America he would have found a promoter but who knows what he would have achieved it would have been what I can say is it would have been enormously more difficult massively massively hard also what we can't ever know is how many kids were helped by training with him for hours of unpaid work that he did in boxing clubs giving on giving back to kids paying it back etc etc who knows how many children might have gone one way but didn't how many children were oh I'm going to do this now how many people learned from the example we don't know it might be none it could be a hundred but you just don't know yeah it's mad to think that how somebody how one can decision can can change a life a split second can change a life going on for kicking on and actually staying on the path because there's been a lot of doubters thinking they'll just go back they'll not go as far as they did but like you say he was the king of the world then it's fair play to yourself as well is he thankful for that he gave us a lot of free tickets for a very long time so yeah we've not been in touch with him for a while now I think he's still in touch with Scott occasionally the difference in a barrister and a solicitor is a barrister is normally you know on the day you do your part of the thing but the relationship is normally built with the solicitor so he's a much longer term relationship with Scott but yeah we'd always get the tickets coming through and as I say we had the tickets to the Klitschko fight that I couldn't go to I will always resent that always and we went to watch him fight usek actually but we paid for that fair play to him for providing tickets he can't just keep giving for the years and years people fall out of touch what about the gold bullion when I read that what was that court case the gold bullion one was something at Taser there's something 24 times or 14 times that was the one time I've ever been intimidated by a defendant I was 22-23 and this guy was former French foreign legion English bloke I mean massive he was just massive about my height two of me across they're just massive and when I went into the room he's sitting there with his arm wrapped up and he's sling and even down to the way they'd wrapped the arm up it just showed how massive his arm was and what I had to tell him effectively was you've got no defence you were found driving they'd robbed the load of gold bullion and they'd brought they just didn't anticipate how heavy it was and so they're driving off and they had no way of getting away the van just couldn't hit any kind of speed so ultimately they get stopped the police you know jackknife them they get stopped he jumps out and I imagine the police have done is they've had exactly the same reaction that I had walking into the cell I think they've looked it and thought oh fucking hell we got how are we taking this guy down and it took them something like 17 different hits with the Taser to finally keep him down and I had to go and say to him you've got no defence you're looking at about 17 years and I was thinking how's he going to react to that I mean what how's he going to react to that news and his reaction was he looked at me he's smart he said why are you wearing something looser and I just thought God for that I just thank God that was the reaction because I did not want him kicking off obviously you've done a bit of boxing you can handle yourself are you about 6'4", 6'5", 6'2", so you're obviously a unite yourself like did anyone ever try and put it on you though several times yeah several times weirdly enough there's something strange about what I wear in court obviously there's something very strange it's 18th century fancy dress but it stops people remembering you're a bloke it stops people remembering that you are bigger than them and it stops them thinking that maybe when you take that stuff up you might go to a gym and hit a bag or you might have some experience of life outside of that courtroom because they get very aggressive from what they've seen and they wait for you occasionally it's happened to me a few times the most recent time it happened someone was saying no no wait in here because he's outside I said are you serious did you see this fella this is a man I made cry in a witness box and I'm going to worry about going outside so it's happened I think three times is it three times somewhere I missed certainly twice I think it's three times and every time it's had the same I had the same effects I walk out I won't have my jacket on because you can see someone's size much better just in a shirt I won't have my jacket on I walk out and as I get closer and closer you get to them you see the look in the eye suddenly changes and nothing happens what you generally find is proper villains or proper people involved in professional crime don't mess about with lawyers there's no interest in messing about with lawyers you're kind of either prosecutors or there's one particular prosecutor I know and I'd heard someone speaking about him and I thought I need to put this to bed because the guy talking about him was a dangerous guy and so I interceded and said you're wrong they thought he'd done something dishonest with the police to get the conviction and I said look I've got to tell you for what it's worth I've known the man 20 years he's the most honest person I know you're just wrong he hasn't done that and they disagree with me they said well we think he has simple as that we're not going to listen I need to persuade you because I think and they said nothing can happen nothing will happen to him and at that point I realised that even the prosecutor it's just it's hands off it's almost like a sacrosanct you don't touch the lawyers even if you think they fitted you up this guy that I'm talking about certainly hasn't there's no way he had but they didn't believe me and yet still nothing will happen to him don't worry but that's just our opinion and so it's very rare that there's any kind of confrontation because of that so the confrontation will normally come from people who aren't actually probably weren't being worried about hence whenever I walked out they've thought twice once you get outside and what is it with the Italian or the Cape and the Wiglet why is that still here in this I don't know and yet I hate to see it go I do think it creates a difference in court between the barrister and the witness and I think that distinction is important I do think it formalises the occasion it makes everything it makes everything more authoritative and to me it works but maybe that's because I'm just used to it but to me it works I was at courts and shit man it's kind of spooky it kind of gives you a fright you think fuck it's got a weird fucking airy vibe man as soon as you see that Cape and you're thinking I wouldn't say scary but it's creepy it's like just a presence where you think fuck when they talk you listen they've got a folder under there with your paperwork and you're thinking and that's what I mean about the formality and the status I think it affords you a status it's a status that plenty of barristers don't deserve but it still gives that status and if you go to a magistrates court and you're a barrister in a magistrates court you notice that you're not treated the same you're not treated quite the same even by the defendants because you're just in a suit whereas when you've got that stuff on it just creates that aura of something it also creates some anonymity so the likes of me I can walk out and not worry about someone recognising me and wanting to do something but some people can't some people would be more worried if they were instantly recognisable and so it does give the protection of anonymity as well so seeing you put that on is that a switch, game time can you, when you take everything off do you leave your work at home though or do you leave your work there and you go home a different character are you constantly thinking about cases I definitely go home a different character because I'm sure I play a character in court whether I realise I'm doing it or not I'm definitely doing that I'm playing a character when I go into court I'm playing the barrister I don't need to be that barrister to think about the cases so that character is put sort of side once I go home or I'm back to be in myself entirely I will still be thinking about the cases because you have to I mean we're now instantly available aren't we all round the clock I've got people phoning me up at 9 at night half 9 at night from prison cells one of the reasons one of the biggest complaints about law firms is we can never get the lawyers and so I decided a few years ago we would make ourselves available much more readily and my god people have jumped on that it's very good in terms of the work that comes in keeps the work coming in means we're on top of the cases it means that they are it means that they are also up to date in a way that others aren't but the problem is as with everything people become complacent and now if they can't get me at 9 o'clock on a Friday night they moan about that well you know I couldn't get you the other day to speak to a barrister on a phone other than me when never so the fact you can get me sometimes should be good enough for you and I also also explained to them you're in a cell and you got nothing else to think of so when you phone me three times in a day and you don't get me three times you think I'm ignoring you you haven't taken into account that all of your phone calls have come while I'm on my feet in court and of course can't answer the phone or even if they're not at that time that's 30 seconds per call on my day that I just happened to have missed that doesn't mean I'm ignoring you it means I haven't been able to answer the call and I can't phone you back because you're in a prison and so that's the you're kind of damned if you do or damned if you don't but you're much more damned if you don't even when you're doing the cases in that and you get to see images of people being shot killed all that stuff like how damaged is that upstairs that's why I like these podcasts so much because a lot of people can be on the authority but people need to understand that these people actually go through on a daily basis like this shit that they see like the kids and all that madness far worse than what we see they see far worse than what looks and it's people need to understand to pick that job man you're kind of the shit that they go through I know there's a lot of people turn to drink drugs with being in the police force I've interviewed enough people now but it's mad to think people don't see what they actually have to go through it's not just a case of tragic acts criminals or put your uncle or your dad in jail the shit that they need to see daily like do you have to go through that also with images the worst thing I ever saw wasn't a dead thing I'm not going to give you details of this because you'll haunt you but it still haunts me I've only ever been involved in one child sex case in my career I always said I wouldn't do it always said categorically I will not get involved in a case like that there is a thing called the cab rank rule you have to accept the cases you're given but I said to my clerks look I don't want to accept those cases so don't give me them so I'm not allowed to refuse them please don't give me them one time I was asked to go to south end and they said it's a sentence in south end what's it for I don't write in their papers will be at court so they'd obviously not been able to find anyone else to do it they put it on me to go and do it but hadn't told me what it was I would have gone anyway because it's my job but they dishonestly didn't tell me what it was I got to south end I opened the case and what I saw was it was a man he was charged with a sexual assault for a child and also possession of photos now when you have these photos you have to go in with the judge and the prosecutor and you have to grade them there's level one to level four if I remember rightly might be five it's a long time ago now since I did it it's level one to four or five four or five being the worst and many of these photographs in this case were the minor ones but I think there were six or seven of the top ones and without telling you anything about them I would say this not only do you look at it and think how can you be turned on by this you actually look at it and think how the fuck did you even conceive this how did this even occur to you as something to do that's how bad it is I came out and at the time we used to have solicitors come with us to court we don't anymore but there would always be a solicitor to support you back in the day and I came out and the solicitor who knew me well said Jesus you've gone white and I had gone completely white and I just drained from what I had to see I then stood up and did my job and one of the worst aspects of the whole thing is I did my job well I did a good job for the man because that's what I do and then I sat down and you were asking earlier about playing a character and all that sort of thing that's kind of what I was doing and when I sat down on my backside touched a seat the second I was sitting down I was just lost everything it was just disgusting myself and the one thing I could think I think I was 25 or 26 the one thing I was thinking was me at 21 would have beaten the shit out of me at 25 for saying half of the things that I just said so I had to go and see him in the cell because you have to he tried to shake my hand that didn't happen some words were exchanged that I won't repeat because I'll get in trouble I could be suspended for saying what was said but you can imagine I then went up and I phoned my mum I went upstairs into the car phoned my mum and just broke down crying and then went and got drunk for two days and she ended up getting my pupil master who was the guy I mentioned earlier my best mate was my best man I was his best man etc she ended up after two days phoning him saying I'll cover my head from him can you go and make sure he's alright and he came and found me where I was basically just I couldn't deal with it so that's the only thing I've never been able to deal with and I mean when I tell this story it gets a bit upset because I can remember the pictures and it's just horrible absolutely horrible and so I look at police officers and I think you've got to do that every day I find weirdly that defence barristers have a lot of respect for police officers the ones that are wrong are absolutely reprehensible the ones that are corrupt are absolutely reprehensible the ones that are lazy and aren't breaking up their job well they're pretty bad as well because there's a great responsibility in that job you should be good at your job if that's your job there's no excuse for being lazy there's no excuse for being competent the ones who are criminal they've had a very long time in open prison with the people they fitted up but having said all of that at the moment there's a very big anti-police sentiment going on I'm afraid 95% of them are excellent that might be 95% of them are good of that 95% I'd say 80% of them are excellent it's a really hard job and I have the utmost respect for almost all of them that we are on opposing sides you've got the villains and stuff we've all watched crime films it's kind of sucked into the bad images the bad boys and the crime and the gangsters you've got a big high profile case do you get excited that you're working on something or is it just a case another day in the office? I'm not going to lie if you're in a big high profile case you enjoy it but I don't think I'll tell you the truth we didn't go into this case to defend shoplifters sorry to defend shoplifters I didn't go into this job to argue about double yellow lines or the calibration of a Gatso speed camera and I went into this job to do proper as you said, sexy crime there is an element of that I'm probably not supposed to admit it but of course there is if you're seeing something on the front page of the news you want to be in that case there are limits on that but I do want to represent Brinks Matt and I do want to represent the Securacore Rob Rear they're the interesting cases they're the sexy cases and of course you want to be in them is there any case you would have loved to have been on? I think I just mentioned them they're the two that I look at obviously Brinks Matt is a long time before my time and I wasn't senior enough to be considered for the Securacore but Craig my pupil master was in Securacore he was led by David Cameron's brother Alex in that case I mean that was some case that would have been very interesting to do I'm watching this stuff on Netflix now because I'm trying to get Kenny to know you on I've got a few contacts that know him but he doesn't he's old school whether you ever see him in front of a camera I just don't know a lot of people have surprised a lot of people with some guests have had on but that story is mad with the golden are you going to get him more likely to get him now than any other time because I've heard by various various contacts that might not know him that he's quite happy with his portrayal in gold he's portrayed by the Scottish chap who plays the lead in that fantastic slow horses but yeah I think Kenny at the moment is probably the best time to get him isn't it he's got his names out there in a way that for once he quite likes because the papers of Petredom are this and that over the years and you're going to get that in that involvement Charlie Bronson's up for parole when you're looking at that and seeing the things that he's doing and everybody loves Charlie he's done 50 years in prison he's never killed anybody listen he's a mad bastard you've got to be honest like he's took people hostages he is a screw loose if you're truly honest but when you look at that do you think he will ever get out he's going to get out this time I think from what I've seen they keep saying he couldn't handle the outside I don't believe that's an assessment you can carry out if you're not outside so I think they at least need to move into an open prison and give him some conditions and give him some opportunity because I mean they've taken that man's entire life that man's whole life has been gone because he doesn't react well pardon me to custody clearly he doesn't react well to custody to suggest that he wouldn't be able to handle being outside he can't handle being inside that's why he's been in there so long because he's not reacted well to it and of course he's done the ridiculous things he's done but it's been a he needs a chance isn't he I think he absolutely needs a chance he's an old man he's got a lot of money from his art and he's a multi-millionaire let him come out and enjoy his life put him on his life license he's straight back in if he needs to be straight back in but I think give him a chance without trying to be too controversial about it how many paedophiles do we lay out and they're released and then they're back in look at Gary Glitter Gary Glitter last night he's back in from trying to access the dark web the difference between a paedophile and Charles Bronson is paedophilia is a sexuality paedophilia that can't be cured they don't try and cure there's a cure for gameth but you don't cure straightness you don't cure sexualities paedophilia is a sexuality it can't be cured so by its very definition they are always a danger always that's never changing and yet we let them out and we let them out to in many cases offend again in many cases not so what you're not allowing the same giving the same leeway to someone like Charles Bronson a man who alright he might come out to what he does once he comes out but he is in his 70's it's quite unlikely that he's going to be bashing too many people up and again they can pull him back in I just believe the man needs a chance I think he really does need a chance that's all you can do that's down to him he's old enough and he knows that I don't think he's daft as people think you don't become all time all you know he's in media every other week he plays the game well whatever my chance like you say what's the most high profile case you've worked on that you can talk about and crime or kind of villains I can't really I talk about it to Joshua a lot because he wrote a book about it I can speak about stuff that's out there I can't really speak about stuff that's not which I can speak as it's easy to say about the ones I'd like to be in it's hard to talk about the ones I have been in you've got to protect your people as well how did you become how was that do you find these an escape with everything you have to do every day they're a complete escape and that's why I don't write realistic crime I write heighten thrillers my books are written so it's like you're watching an action film or a conspiracy action film so I mean the best the best description of a film that would be like them but they're kind of like James Bond for the 21st century there's two main characters one's a barrister who gets up to a load of shit that a barrister will never get up to and the other one is kind of my James Bond character he's an international intelligence agent and so it's all political the first one's all about the someone trying to bring down the British government this one's about a corrupt president in the White House no idea where that idea came from this one's about again set in America it's like a national well it's kind of like the guys who invaded Capitol Hill but I watched what happened with Trump when they tried to take America during the transfer of power and I thought at the time what if it wasn't Donald Trump leading these idiots what if actually they were being led by Tony Stark from famous at the time I'll be honest I thought Elon Musk but he's since proved himself to be a bit of an idiot but it was Elon Musk at the time that was in my head I thought what if it was Elon Musk that was doing this Donald Trump it would be so much more efficient so much more dangerous and so that's where that book came from so the only one that's actually realistically kind of like the way the world really works is is marked for death because that's much more about it's about a trial in the Old Bailey about a murder trial and about a serial killer how can people get these books everywhere I mean this one was the first one was Zoe Ball Book Club which the second one was Richard and Judy Book Club W. A. Smith Kingsbury's Waterstones Amazon they've done very well they've done very well they've done a lot better than I expected them to I mean with the exception of Powerplay they've all been best sellers Powerplay wasn't a best seller because her Powerplay came out in the second week of the first lockdown so because we sell all our books we sell in W. A. Smith railway stations, airports, supermarkets that's our big sales all the supermarkets sent all their books back because they needed shelving for tins and for toilet rock all the railway stations were closed all of the airports were closed so my run of best sellers went the one, two, four and that was sent back and it's very annoying because I think it's my best book could you not get it back out on we have re-released it with the new cover basically if one of them hits massive at some point then people will rediscover it it's just the way the book world works it's mad luck to be Barrister in an offer you must have so much content then if you run the environment you run ideas, visions to then write books does it make it easier with the job that you're in it makes it harder I mean you just asked me a question that I couldn't answer and I said I just can't tell you that I can talk about what I want to be and I can talk cases wise it's the same with that the people I represent all know that I'm an author they all get a kick out of it they all read the books if they were to read those books and see something in there that reminded them of something they were involved in the impact that would have on my career is enormous because suddenly whether or not it touched upon something it shouldn't touch on or not they would be worried that they can't tell me things and if they're then worried about things that they can and can't say the relationship dies so I often relate this to the myth of Tantalus which is the guy Greek mythology who they stood him in a pool of water up to here with fruit just up there and every time he reached for it the fruit would move away every time he went down the water would go down it's where the word tantalizing comes from and I often refer to it as that it's like the myth of Tantalus I'm surrounded by all this fantastic stuff and I can't use any of it and so it's really frustrating so if I come up for an idea for a book I then have to run through that idea to make sure I'm not stealing anything my current idea for a book is what I'm literally about to start writing is my sixth book is going to be in two eras and I'm going to mark for death it will be about again a serial killer and trial and the idea of it is that I'm going to have my main character is going to be defending someone in 2000 and then defending him again in 2023 and it's both for murder so the first time round he's very very young like Michael's very young and he's living the life basically like I lived when I was in my twenties I'd love people to know what the bar was like when I was in my twenties it was horribly politically incorrect it was so much fun and I want people to know that because it's not anymore it's not the same the world has moved on a lot and we're not allowed to say or do a lot of things we did so I'm going to have half the book with that and then half the book now but with the two murder trials I've got to rack my brain when I'm writing to make sure I'm not stealing from trials that I've done so it actually is the opposite I've got all the inspiration in the world and I can't use any of it what good fear? I think I could at the end of my career Henry Milner did that Henry Milner oh you need to speak to Henry Milner you'll love Henry Milner Henry Milner is he was the preeminent criminal solicitor for London from through the late 70s through to the 90s he's still around, he still does a bit but he's writing books now and writing he's written his memoir you've been watching Gold haven't you? you know the Chinese solicitor that you were turning up that's Henry, he was not Chinese he's a Jewish fellow from Hattengarden for some reason they're doing their normal diversity casting even though it's set in the 1980s one of the head coppers is that lady she didn't exist, there was no women on that but you can't do that anymore can you for some reason so Henry represented Henry represented the other chap John Palmer he's represented everyone he wrote a memoir I think about two years ago I don't know how well it did because I'm not sure how well it was publicised but that's a memoir to read from a lawyer yeah that's proper old school isn't it because you're not really involved with the bitcoin and you ended up working with old chap's lawyer yeah we were involved, I've got to be very circumspect about this what can I say I'll say as much I'm editing myself as I'm speaking there was an allegation that this group were, I mean they weren't British but they were in Britain there was an allegation that this group were involved in money laundering on the dark web and the money laundering that they were allegedly doing was very much through bitcoin and the FBI and the NCA and everybody basically went through the doors there's a couple of them arrested over in America there's a couple of them arrested here we dealt with them here we had to get them a lawyer in America so we got an old chapo's lawyer the difference in what he charged them what we charged them was just enough we just looked at the difference and just thought we're doing all the work this isn't fair this is the culture they just charge so much more out there it's why Americans are so rich but we were doing an awful lot of back and forth trying to negotiate a route out of this that didn't involve charges and didn't involve this out of the other and what became very apparent while we were doing it it was really interesting we were successful there was no charges in the end hence I have to be so incredibly circumspect about it but what was really interesting was how little anyone knew about what was really going on see I was assumed that they've got to have people and they're great people that want to know this going back to gold in fact the program you've been watching gold it was like them when they're in that show they're trying to work out how would you launder this how would you monetize this gold and they're all completely blank until they talk to the guy from the Customs and Excites and he works it out it's kind of like that but they had no man from the Customs and Excites they were all completely oblivious to how this works as these meetings were going on hours after hours after hours gradually these guys were explaining to them by about the 8th meeting we were actually having lectures it was lectures on how the dark web works so I think a big part of the lack of the charge was they'd been given a free education so that's how that works obviously anything that might have been going on ended because you can't just not get charged and then carry on doing stuff that you shouldn't be doing and I always I can't help but notice the correlation between that ending and Bitcoin going down now it may be nothing it may be not connected at all but it's bloody convenient in terms of timing so that's all ended suddenly Bitcoin is not worth very much and I often wonder whether there's a connection in that way see when you've got because you get celebrity lawyers look at the big American cases, O.J. Simpson and the people who's worked on that same as in England and Scotland like we've got Donald Finlay, he seems to have been all the big cases back then but seeing a celebrity kind of lawyer does that help with your job or does it make it harder, like big cases around TV and people know who you are there's no pressure come on top I don't think there's any extra pressure to it I don't think there's extra pressure because he would never go out there and talk bollocks about what we can achieve there's this Asian fella at the moment doing the rounds on YouTube and he's laughable and he's talking about we'll do this and we'll do that and we've got this person off we've got that person off he's saying lots of things you shouldn't say I've got no idea why he's not been sanctioned for this already I'm not entirely sure he's actually a lawyer but he's giving it all this crap are they instructive me and I did this because his videos are wrong he's talking about something and we got him out not a free man surely you're saying he is a free man he's actually messes me on Instagram so can you do that as a barrister not as a barrister, as a barrister absolutely not solicitors have a bit more freedom most of the rules that cover solicitors firms are much stricter than they are for barristers but in terms of publicity I do probably about as any one and I probably hit the limit and I do most of mine for my books but people are interested in what I do in the day so the book publicity turns into bar publicity I also do a lot of TV shows I do get a lot of stuff on Netflix like meet marry murder and my love of my killer and stuff like that where I talk about cases they're not my cases I'm given information about them I answer questions about them and that's where that happens because I didn't do them if I did them I wouldn't be able to so I do an awful lot of that but yeah this guy going back to that this guy makes these ridiculous he's basically saying actually what he says is catchphrase for every offence there is a defence he spells both words wrong I mean it's just he spells both words wrong so I'm not sure how he's getting away I'm assuming he's not really a lawyer maybe he is but he's just he's laughable and that kind of a celebrity lawyer I think is the kind of person that's going to get themselves in trouble because he's making promises he can't deliver what we say to people effectively is we're going to do a good job for you we'll do a very good job and we'll always be honest with you and we will get you the best result we can in the circumstances and as I said to you at the outset the best result isn't always not guilty about that the very outset of the case if you know that the best result you're going to get is a good sentence you need to tell them because the earlier they act on that the better the sentence will be you know who's top boy it's their presence you don't need to be doing videos but we're living this age people are going through universities now to do law and they're making tiktok so we're making Instagram videos because they think this is the way the world angles both Tramie and Glasgow all the big cases had a presence when they fucking spoke people listened but that's what you want hopefully I never have to go down that route but you just know the presence he's got that he can win you a case see when you have to go through all that then and then how do you how do you find balance in your life with trying to do Netflix and books and what can try to very very difficult it's becoming much much harder I've got to make not a choice I do bad you need to change how I do things a little bit I need to find more time for more things I mean I was saying to you earlier I put about a stone on since I started my case that I've been doing in Reading for two and a half months simply because when I get back from court if I had time to go into I've got a little gym in the house I just don't have time to go in it because I'll come back and I'll have book things to do and I'll have interviews to do and I'll have law things to do as well I've got a four year old son that I like to put to bed and they've got people phoning me up and at the moment it never ends at the moment it doesn't stop I do need to find more of a balance I at least recognise that I don't have one and I think recognising that I don't have one is hopefully the first step towards rectifying that but I recognise that for about 18 months so I've done the thing about it The barristers have anything in place to go and speak to someone after a big court case or when you see bad images You can you do sort of in your chambers barristers all work in chambers they're all self-employed but a chamber is a collective and it's nice to have one I don't have one, I do have a chamber but it's the chambers of me because when I stepped away to set my sort of thing up along with my mates we set up together, we helped ourselves I helped him set up a law firm he helped me set up the chambers we work out the same office we have the same admin staff it's still separate but it's very close and that is where I get my support I think if I need the support I'll speak to him or I'll speak to a couple of mates who are at the bar but it's definitely better when you are in chambers because there's a lot more people there so if you've got a problem that you've seen something that this guy hasn't seen then that guy will have done this very suggestional thought of that it's very new it demonstrates a different world well-being didn't even feature back in the day so when I saw those horrible pictures and went off and drank myself into a stupor for two days there was no well-being then there was no sit down and talk about it and it does to a certain extent I do claim to think you're in this job get a thick of skin but at the same time I suppose that's an old way of thinking of things and maybe the world is healthier now who knows I'm not sure it is better I like the old school way just a slap behind the head because the thing is about mental health I'm a big ambassador for mental health but now I'm looking at it there's more people speaking out about it but there's more people suicidal so is it really working? is it case I just pull up the fucking big boy pants and get on with it understand if you've got problems speak out the slogan we've got now is okay not to be okay, I get it but it's not okay to fucking live there because life has got to go on there's got to come a stage where you've got to pull the reins in and go wait a minute, I need to make changes like you were saying, I'll put on a store and a half I know what needs to be done I know what eating shit makes me feel bad I do it, I'm the only person I've got to blame I know people's got a lot of more in-depth issues in life and we've all got problems but at comes a stage we need to go okay listen, I need to make changes look at the world out and think let's look at the plus size stuff at the moment because we're talking about weight the plus size stuff this is fat is beautiful no it's not, it's unhealthy I can say that, I'm 18 and a half stone I shouldn't be, so I can say at the moment I'm free to say fat is not beautiful fat is not healthy and you shouldn't be fat if you can avoid it but we're not allowed to say that anymore we've now got to say I know you can't just have people in good shape in their underwear on a thing, you have to have everyone why? at the same time, yes we have to understand that we can't all look like Thor and actually Thor can't look like Thor unless he has not eaten for three days not drunk any water and then pumped himself up for five hours before that 30 second scene that's unrealistic as well but normality we do need to be in the middle and that is, that's just one example I think of the way the world is going a little bit wrong we're all, it isn't all all okay and as you say about mental health it isn't okay to not be okay it's okay to recognize you're not okay and to do something about it it's not okay as you say to not be okay and to live there and to be there forever and as always a lot of people jump on it I remember when I was first starting ADHD was the new thing everyone had ADHD five years later, everyone was on the what's the, not autistic but the one next to it I can't remember that word that's very, that's extremely aspergers everyone was on the asperger scale suddenly, everyone and you just think, where has this come from people jump on things people jump on things people look for excuses for reasons quite often because they haven't achieved the thing they wanted to achieve and they can't just if I lost a boxing match you're not going to get me saying you're not going to get me saying like Jake Paul suddenly, well I had a really bad camp and I had this I had a boxing match you lose a boxing match you lose a boxing match you would try and achieve something I've got an excuse for why this didn't do great reality is, it just didn't do great and if it hadn't done if that hadn't done great not in lockdown I would not have sat here and looked for a different excuse but I said, yeah that one could have done better shame because I liked it and as simple as that and I think we do live in a world in which there has to be they would say a reason for everything I would say an excuse for everything see a lot of court cases in America get filmed, they go live I think the Johnny Depp was that in the UK he did too there was one in the high court in the UK that wasn't filmed the one in America was filmed so why don't they film once here they do in Scotland now they do in Scotland we're starting to film some sentences which I agree with because if you look at the reporting of sentences they're never reported properly so you get all the outrage and I think that's done intentionally you get all the outrage, it gives us a new story for a couple of days but it's always bullshit it's always absolutely rubbish there's so many factors missing from the reports that you will be outraging I think this is amazing how has this happened, this is incredibly terrible whereas actually when you listen to the entire sentence you see the judge explain why they get in that sentence and judges are not often wrong with sentences especially these days because sentences are now very strictly set out in guidance from the government in terms of beyond that I don't know the answer I'm not sure I'd be comfortable being filmed I probably would be comfortable being filmed because I'm much more used to it than other barrisons but I still think it would put me off a bit and I think as some people it would pull off incredibly but much more to the point I think there's a lot of witnesses will be put off Do you feel a lot of trial by media? I know there's a kid in Scotland, Luke Mitchell when they were going through the murder trial the kid's innocent, he's done two polygraph tests him and his mum all the evidence against him there was no DNA, there was a lot of stuff I don't have a full part series on him I ain't a barist, I ain't a lawyer but the full evidence the kid that I believe is innocent obviously polygraph tests don't we get that but how many of his mum both passed this kid can get released if it mits his gout that's okay he can get released if it mits his gout but he still stayed in he apparently killed a 14 year old girl he was 15 at the time but the papers fucking killed him he says it was this, it was that relationships with his mum, music he listened to he had knives, that total trial by media do you find the media has a big part on pushing cases? I think that they're normally quite good they're normally quite good with what they have to do and the rules that they have to follow but I do think I think it's unavoidable you tell a jury at the outset of the case do not Google this case I don't and we have to approach the law we have to approach the court system with the belief that the jury are doing what we ask but is it likely that I've just finished a two and a half month case with some notable names coming up in the case is it likely that the jury when they heard those names didn't Google them I just don't believe it I've got no evidence that it's happening but I just don't believe it because I know the temptation would be there for me and for those who passed us it's an instinct but we have to accept that they follow the directions otherwise the whole system falls down but yeah I do believe whilst most traditional media are very good at following the rules some of them aren't and social media is a disaster for it because people just say whatever they want and it's impossible to police it it's impossible to police it what makes a good baddest that? there is no proper answer to that question because there are very good barristers who are so different to other very good barristers there's generally two types of barrister but then there are subdivisions of those two but you've generally got a flare barrister or a prep barrister and I'm very much in the flare side I've got friends that I think are superb who are in the prep side and I couldn't do what they do they are a better barrister than me at what they do and I'm better than them at what I do and it's hard to say which one's more valuable so it's really very difficult to say but I would say someone who absolutely takes their job seriously no matter how much fun you might have doing it no matter how much humour you might bring to the table and ultimately you've got to take what you do seriously I think probably if I'm going to give a single answer today it would be a sense of justice there's got to be a sense of justice whatever side you're on a prosecutor should not be seeking a conviction at all costs a prosecutor is there to seek and this is why I don't prosecute I stopped prosecuting when I was being pushed by the CPS to do things that I didn't feel were in the public interest a prosecutor should not be seeking a conviction they should be seeking the right result because the conviction isn't always the right result if the man is innocent if the woman is innocent they should be acquitted and a prosecutor should not be seeking that at all costs and if they've got a sense of justice they won't a defense barrister should have a sense of justice it should be this is wrong that's been done and particularly when you're defending because it stops being necessarily about the guilt or innocence of the person and starts becoming about the process that was followed you know whether or not it looks like this person had done it why did you do that to a police officer why was this done why was that done to actually look at the process that was going through because ultimately what the police have done or what the CPS have done have created the picture that is making this person look guilty but were the things that they did right were the things that constitute this picture correct because actually if they weren't and you take bits away because they were wrong it becomes much less compelling and much less clear and so I think for both sides it's a sense of justice just before we find ourselves on brother the relationship with Alfie Best Senior love him a bit man it's unbelievable what he's achieved how did that relationship come about we've just known each other for a very very long time I'm first met Alfie but I think we were both relatively skinned when I first met Alfie changed his I live in quite a nice house in Buckinghamshire the hell he wants last questions well two questions the pros and cons have been a barrister what's the positives of being a barrister is no two days are the same it's an incredibly important job it's a job that I'm incredibly privileged to do and if you're doing it to the right level it's interesting as it could possibly be you're doing something that matters and you're interested in doing it negatives are negatives that don't affect me anymore the ones that affect me the hours the hours are extraordinary you need a very very understanding family the negatives overall unfortunately for those who are doing legal aid and legal aid only is that even with the government changes they're only minimum wage the money they are paying young barristers is so poor they're no longer any decent young barristers nobody with any talent wants to come to this profession so where are our future KCs QCs, KCs where are our future judges where are our future senior barristers Tony would you like to finish up on anything? I think we've covered quite a lot where can people get their books again? Amazon WX Smith, Waterstones any independent bookstore they're generally available hopefully they're enjoyable hopefully when someone buys one they'll buy the rest Tony listen, absolute pleasure understanding of that life what it's all about what you go through and yeah, just the kingdom fair play yet, wishing nothing but success for the future thank you very much, cheers