 as you can all be here this evening for this debate, which will be moderated by my colleague, King McCarthy. And this is just the very first of your announcement. Thank you all for being here and tell you a little bit about this project, which is a three-year project that we're running on the future and we're really looking at Ireland's role in anything that might change very significantly after the UK part. Now obviously that has all been thrown up into question, but we've persevered because we do believe that the future of your debate is a crucial one to have in Ireland. So this is what we're trying to attempt with these events and we're delighted all our panelists could be here. And with that, I'll hand over to King. Thank you, Han. So, yeah, my name is King McCarthy. I'm a researcher at the Institute of International European Affairs and I work specifically looking at topics on the future of Europe. And I'm very delighted to be joined by this panel here today. It might be a few familiar faces. And to some of you, we have a meeting to my right. We have Timmy Dooley, TD, who is the fiend of all spokesperson on communications, the environment, and national resources, national resources, which of course is a very important topic right now. And he's also previously served as the party's spokesperson on transport tourism and the sport. And also, somebody you might not know, that Timmy Dooley also has an important role within the European context. And as he is the vice president of the European political grouping called the Alliance of Liberal Democrats of Europe. So an important role by the European level. And then to his right, we have Deirdre Kloon, MEP, who's an MEP here in the South constituency for Ireland, in 2014. And she's a member of the Parliament's Transport and Tourism Committee. And also, as a substitute in the Employment and Social Affairs Committee. And Deirdre has also held many other different ranks of political office, served as a TD for Corkside Central. Senator, I was also the Lord Mayor of Cork. So a huge amount of good experience that we hope to draw out of Deirdre during her comments. And we have Stephen Kinzough. Dr. Stephen Kinzough is Associate Professor of Economics just as the University of Limerick here and a senior fellow in Melbourne School of Government. And Stephen also, in the ward, really, called him to ensure some of you have encountered his columns with the Sunday Business Post. And he got his first PhD in 2007 for menu IG and then went on to do his second PhD in 2011 in the New School for Social Research in New York. So I suppose between us, we have two PhDs. And then Katrina Cahill, finally, Dr. Katrina Cahill is the economist for the Limerick Chamber. And prior to this, she also worked in the University of Limerick and has also worked as a researcher, Executive Researcher, Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment to get her PhD from the University of Limerick. So it's a really interesting panel, I think, today. We have a good mix, as you can see, between the Limerick side and the more academic side. And hopefully, there'll be a good discussion. I'm going to just kick it off by asking a few questions to our panelists and we'll have a little discussion. And then there will be an opportunity for members of the audience to ask your questions to any of the panelists. So hopefully, we can have an open and interesting discussion on the future of Europe. And I'm sure a lot of you have been engaging somewhat in a news basis with Europe when it comes to Brexit, of course. But there's still a lot going on at a European level this year that I think is very important that people keep an eye on. There's the European elections are happening in May. And following that, there'll be changes to all of the European institutions, including the Commission, which is the executive arm of the European Union, and also a new president of the European Council, which is the meetings of the heads of government of European leaders. So it's a very important year for the EU. But one of the things going on that we're going to focus on a little bit today is the idea of the EU budget. And the EU budget is run in a seven-year time frame, and the next one is starting in 2021. And the big negotiations are ongoing at the moment. And I'd like to turn to you, maybe first, Deirdre, on this topic of the budget, because a lot of people say that the European budget is the future of Europe in numbers, really. It's taking the priorities of the EU, and I'm putting some numbers on it. So within that context, within your experience at the European Union, interested to hear, what do you think are the priorities that the EU should be looking at in the next seven to 10 years, even longer, and are there new priorities that we should be looking at? Yeah, you're right. We're discussing the future financial situation, the future budget, and there's lots of debate in the parliament, the commission, and the council level. And you asked the question, what should the EU be looking at? And I suppose there's this conflict between what the EU should be looking at and what Ireland should be looking at. I think there certainly have been changes in the last five years, new priorities that will proceed in terms of the fight against terrorism, cybersecurity, intelligence sharing, all those are priorities that have climate change, action in that area has become a priority. And dealing with migration are a major challenge. And these have, if you look back five years ago, I was standing in the election campaign, and they weren't priorities at that point. But things have changed, and we all know where that has come from the last five years. For me, as an individual representing Ireland's South, I absolutely, the continent culture policy is really important, it's about 38% of the budget now. It is really important. And it was used with the Hogan Commissioner carried out. It has produced a potential reform of the cap of how we see it implemented. And that's for the upper negotiation and it's going through the committees of the parliament. It was very useful in that consultation that the level of awareness of consumers, not just the world, the countries, the level of awareness and recognition of the need to support the policy that PACE has and direct claim to farmers to produce good quality food that we know where it's coming from and the story behind the food that we have, which is a premium product, but it costs money. So there is an acceptance by consumers, but that is important. So one of my priorities, it has to be, and I think obviously it's reflected in the budget as well, is the cap of the continent culture policy has to be maintained. Others are very important as well, the Horizon 2020, the research and innovation program which is going to be the next phase, we call it Horizon EU, and it's for investing in research and innovation. That means that our third level sectors have been extremely active as a day of attractive funding. So that's very important. And if we're going to, as I mentioned, cyber security, I mentioned tonight against her investment in research is going to be important. And the social fund, that for us as well, for us, yes, most particular countries to focus on youth, youth on and private, social inclusion. And I think they will be seen as priorities, of course, competition transformation, you've got all the various programs. I mean, one of them went on the other, but I think there's some of that would be the highlights for us in this country and the debate is going on. Of course, the big debate is about are we going to fund it? Are we going to pitch in more? Are we going to cut programs? Are we going to increase our contributions post UK? When they're gone, there's 12 billion a year, probably the estimate. Where is that going to come from? Holding the budget, increase member states' contributions, or cut programs? I mean, that's the reality because the European people, I think sometimes speaking to people, and I think that Europe has all this part of money to distribute, but in fact, the money comes to the member states, so that's the challenge. Thank you. I'll turn to you, Timmy. On that question of the member states and as a whole acting together and then at an individual level, like one very important issue which I know you work on is the issue of climate change, and there's a huge growing public demand for action on the issue of climate change. Do you think then there should be a joint European response to this, which could even include financial assistance at the EU level to countries, or is this really something that member states should be doing by themselves on their own terms? What I suppose the short answer is that we need both. It will have to be done at both European and local level. When you consider that the European bloc is responsible for some 10% of greenhouse gas emissions, and some of the impacts of those emissions will be felt beyond the borders of the European Union and will continue to have global impacts. So we have a responsibility in the first instance on an individual level and national and at European level as advanced economies to alter in a very significant way, the way we live our lives. And I think no different to our debate about the future of Europe. When we start to talk about climate change, we have to move beyond the academic discussion and the scientific argument. And to some extent I find in addressing climate change issues, whilst the public are accepting now of the science that sits behind it, perhaps political and academic level, we haven't started to discuss the practical implications of what climate change is going to mean for an economy. And we somehow maybe pull back a little bit because it is very significant in terms of the impact that it will have on economies. And it's not just about a couple of grants here and a little bit of pairing back there. If we're to reach the targets of net zero emissions by 2050, and I suppose from a political perspective, we see 2050 as a long way off because it's outside, you know, it's a number of political electoral cycles away, but the kind of policy decisions that have to be taken now domestically with the support of the European bloc are significant and are going to have to change, you know, assist people in changing very significantly. And what we've got to be careful in doing that, and that's where I suppose the European budget comes into play, we've got to be careful that we don't leave communities behind. And I'm conscious even of what's happening in Ireland at the moment with the moving away from the burning of fossil fuels for the generation of electricity, as is happening in the Midlands where Borden and Amona have brought forward their deadline for the harvesting of peace and the impact that that's going to have on communities there, there are deadlines in relation to the ending of the burning of coal at money point for the generation of electricity, which is set at 2025. Now, all of these decisions have significant impacts on people's lives and on the economies of the region because there are significant people employed in those sectors and that's going away. So we've got to work together to ensure that we don't leave behind these mini Rospels which have had their own political destabilization in the United States and we've seen the rise of that populist agenda of President Trump and we see some of that emerging in Europe for different reasons. But what we don't want to see is that climate change becomes a further catalyst in the European context for a much greater level of our assistance towards the continued rise of populism and that re-emergence of a nationalism which undermines the whole foundation of the European Union and I think Deirdre will probably have more visibility on this than I, but there is real concern amongst the European parties about the rise of populist parties and any of the polling that has been done would suggest that the formation of the next parliament will be dramatically different to the current one and the shifting of the balance of power towards a greater role for populist parties who have clearly indicated their desire to undermine much of what's happening within the European Union at the moment. So those are things we've got to be really careful of and that's why I think citizens in states like Ireland who see an agenda of climate change coming with it, targets agreed at European level that it can't be the old story that we blame that on the Europeans and at the same time seek to maintain the architecture that so much time has been invested in building up. I know you've all said there that we need to move a little bit away from the academic debate but nevertheless, I'm going to move over to the academics here and there. It's very important to me. I just mentioned the idea, this whole idea of the EU budget which is something that's done over seven years but another proposal that has come out specifically from President Macron of France is to have a Eurozone budget that would be specifically to deal with matters concerning the 19 members that use the Euro and would you be able to tell us a little bit about this idea and how it maybe differs from the traditional budget and how do you see this working? Does it have implications? Could it end up splitting the EU between the Eurozone members and the non Eurozone members? Is that a fear? Yeah, I mean it's essentially France under President Macron's been on a deep integrationist track and I think what, what his proposal is essentially is that there's more fiscal power so fiscal is from that and fiscal machines. You know, purse, right? So the idea is to increase the amount of the purse that the Eurozone has to spend. This is exactly what we needed to do during the crisis. You know, we needed the Eurozone to be able to spend money to build bridges and to build roads and to improve schools and that kind of thing in order to get us up out of the crisis. In fact, during the crisis it said the exact opposite, right? So the idea is to build in the kind of capacity to do things at a structural level between those 19 Euro members because the Euro right now is incomplete. It's a fiscal unit but it's not a, it's a monetary unit but it's not a fiscal unit. So we have, we all have our Euros but we don't contribute to European part and the same that we contribute to the amount of money that Pascal Donahue actually gets to spend on a yearly basis, right? Now that we're all okay with, well, most of us are okay, well, none of us are okay with giving Pascal Donahue some of our money, right? We do it because we realize that the state doesn't run unless we give him some money. We also realize that if we don't give him the money we go to jail, right? So there's this thing of we vote in parties. The parties appoint ministers. The ministers are given seals of office by the president and that gives them the legislative authority to actually spend the money, right? Which is fine. And the issue at European level is that that is diluted somewhat even though there is actually a lot of democracy involved and actually in the generation of the European Parliament and members of European Parliament and so forth. The idea is to create a more federalized fund. Now that means your taxes go up, right? There's no other way to say that. Your taxes just go up. Now maybe they don't look like they go up. Maybe spending goes down somewhere else and we make an increased contribution, right? Or maybe we defer some grants so they don't come down fast enough. But however you split it, your taxes go up. Now I would argue this is an entirely good thing. I was not a fan when we joined the Euro. I didn't think it was a great idea because we didn't have this fiscal integration. But now we're in the Euro. It makes no sense not to have this. You need the fiscal firepower for when the next crisis happens. So I would be very much a supporter of that. However, this goes back to Timmy's point. How do you not tell people but how do you get people to understand the idea that not only is their money going to Marion Street to be spent on schools and hospitals but how do you get them to realize this is now going to Frankfurt, it's going to Strasbourg. And it's not a contribution of 1.27% of our budget, right? We're a net contributor now. It's maybe a little bit more. And again, we're a small country but we're a rich country. We're one of the highest richest countries in the world. So this is the kind of contribution we should be making. And then how much of a say do you get when you, what do you get to say over? We can't have an Albert Reynolds moment. People of a certain age will remember Albert coming back and going I have X billion reasons for you to vote yes to this thing, right? How many, what would be X? I can't keep going. Seven. Seven. I have seven billion reasons. Between seven and eight. Wasn't seven point eight or was it eight point two? I forget the exact number but we can't, I think that's probably the wrong way to go about it. And that's the idea of a European monetary fund which is similar enough but a little bit different where it's more rather than having this fiscal union you just have a pot of money that's a rainy day fund or a bailout fund in other ways of putting it. Is that a solution do you think? Or could that create other problems? Yeah, the idea of the European monetary fund, it's kind of been around since 2010. And it was put on the back burner then due to the fact that if you wanted to establish an EMF that was similar to the International Monetary Fund it would require changes to the treaty. That's quite difficult to do. So what they did instead was in 2012 they created the European stability mechanism. And they did this by basically entering into an international treaty between Eurozone members. And in effect it was an organisation of I suppose public international law outside the EU. So in terms of what they're suggesting nowadays if we were to have an EMF it would be characterised by effectively bringing the ESM back into union law changing its name to the European Monetary Fund and giving it a few add-on tasks. And you know, the reason why people want to do this if you think about it is that currently the crisis management governance structures are very overly complex. They're very slow and the reason for that largely is because it's the European Commission who has responsibility for crisis management. And in the context of that, if we look to Germany's solution so Germany thinks that by creating this European Monetary Fund that this will solve this problem because effectively the European Monetary Fund then takes over from the European Commission in terms of looking after structural reforms and also in regards to fiscal rules. So Germany is all about risk avoidance. But then you have France who are very much about cooperation and risk sharing. And the idea I suppose that they've put forward is obviously they want to take policies, social policies, economic, fiscal and they want to harmonise them. And the idea behind that is that they very much want to have a eurozone budget. They want that to be funded by eurozone-wide taxes. They want it to be managed by a powerful European minister of finance and economy or whatever title they're trying to apply and they want it to be controlled by eurozone-parliament. And I think that if we look towards what's been suggested I do think Germany's idea of having a credit line for countries that are affected by external shocks is a good idea. And obviously that works with those conditions that are applied. I think the suggestion has been maybe for a five-year period I think it's five years, it was stressing for forward but obviously it would be capped and it would have to be repaid in full. Now you might ask the question how is that much different to what's there at the moment and would it make any difference? And the answer is that it can potentially but where that rests is in the connections of the conditions to policies that are put in place. Because if we think about it currently what you have sometimes is this ex post kind of monitoring where we try to enforce particular structural reforms and policies after a crisis has hit or post a big event where the focus should be more on ex anti policies. So we're looking for these countries to adapt in a particular way before they would be given access to this credit line because you might not realize it but the current EMS that we have at the moment they actually offer two precautionary credit lines but no member state has signed up to them. And the reason for that is because there's this perception that it sends a negative signal that the country is preparing for a shock. So really what we need to be ensuring is that the perception of this has changed and instead what it needs to be that signing up to access the credit line is instead getting a stamp of approval that you have had strong policy over a sustained period of time because that's the only way that you're allowed to access the credit line. So I think you've something like that comes into play it does have to prevent like the potential to support I suppose against coordination failures against financial markets and by extension help prevent later with economic crisis. I also have an issue with the monetary aspect of the name change because it's misleading. The ECB has particular responsibility over those areas that we associate with term monetary. And I get why they want it because they want it to be an international monetary fund a comparison to that. But if you look back in history the international monetary fund originally was called the International Stabilization Fund and it was actually John Maynard Keynes who put pressure for that change to take place because at the time the word stabilization was associated with previous stabilization packages that have been implemented for exchange rates. You know when Britain was obviously you know they went through a tough time with pegging their currency to the international gold standard. So they wanted no connection with the word stabilization. That's why it was changed to monetary but those connotations don't exist today. Thanks very much. And here's John Maynard. Back to the budget itself. You mentioned this idea of you know increasing the budget or you know do we keep the same. And there's been a little bit in the news recently I think I saw it yesterday about this announcement that Ireland is increasing its next contribution to the budget. And sometimes I see this with mixed reactions by some people because for example I was in Poland recently and I met with somebody from the Polish Ministry and they are net beneficiaries of the budget which means they get more money back than they put in. And they're saying we want by 2025 to be net contributors. And most people think what you want to lose money you want to give more money because they say yeah because then we're part of the club of contributors. So do you see it like that? Do you think really being a net contributor is something that Ireland should be proud of something which would say this is by influence or does it also hurt the idea that we're actually losing money to the European Union? No I don't see it that it's I think it's a good thing it's a sign of our economy is strong. I mean at one point we were recipients we're net recipients but now we're in a stronger position so we're net contributed just about but we're in that bracket. And yes I said going forward we will be hopefully continuing in that way. But I think it's very important that we realize it's not just about money back it's about the benefits that you receive from collective decisions at EU level such as well like but for us I mentioned the common agricultural policy originally and I think I was at the audited CNAG report yesterday on 2017 I think 80% of the funding that we receive comes to Agriculture Rural Development Fund the CAP and Rural Development Fund so that's very important for us. So in the debate that's going on at the moment about the next budget we really want and we're trying to get a lot of countries on board in this to make sure that the CAP budget is maintained at least maintained so that's very important for us. And I think then you have to realize that we benefit from the synergies around the Horizon 20 the investment program research and innovation we will benefit from that. So even though we're net contribution I think we would benefit the benefits will be greater than our actual contributions and that's the way we have to look at it because we're in a union with 27 member states well 28 soon to be 27. So we're in this union and it's collective and we benefit more from it such as in defense and securities so we would benefit from that you know and we can't we are an island but no man should be an island really. So I think it's probably it's going to be it's going to increase more I mean the projections are that our contributions and the gap between what we receive is going to increase more but we have to make sure that the funding to the programs that benefit us you know is maintained and that that that's the way to look at me the UK we know there are net they were obviously a net contribution for a long time but they benefited enormously there from the research and innovation program enormously their universities were top class and still are top class one of their priorities if we do get to the situation where we know discussing a future arrangement with the UK one of their priorities is to pay to be involved in the research and innovation program so I think it's about it's about where your priorities are and to ensure that those programs are funded. So just in terms of research and innovation just to give you a really concrete example right, Horizon 2020 is an absolutely gigantic pot of cash and Irish universities like we're about to become the largest in the speaking country in the European Union right and what's really really interesting the University of Gleaming has been quite successful in the Horizon 2020 money so we just got a 21 million euro award of which 16 euros is going to Limerick to Limerick City so six million euros is going to come to change the Georgian city parts of the Georgie Corps to make them positive energy users I'm obviously scratching a record while I'm giving this talk yeah and so what's really interesting about this is like that's money, that's jobs that's changing the structure of what we've got as Tim said as well like you know this is the Georgian Corps which is a 200 year old piece of architecture which is going to become a net contributor into the energy system in Limerick and that is world-class research that's happening in Limerick it's literally happening down the road right and it would only be possible because of the European Union and the Horizon 2020 because there's no Irish pot of money that's anywhere near this size we're just not big enough to do it and 20 million euros is not that much money we're doing it with Trondheim and Norway and a couple of other places like Limerick and Trondheim are going to be the two lighthouse cities for all of Europe in this so it's a really interesting here now example of the power of this Horizon 2020 thing and it's next iteration it was framework 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and so forth they more like Greg and Quinn actually rebranded Horizon 2020 for some reason now it's called Horizon EU 2020 to next year sorry, EU, Horizon EU is the next 2021 and with increased funding increased funding so the universities are going the universities and the private sector working together to do something really, really innovative here and so the more we get involved with this the better we will all be and I think I can't stress that enough it is a key strategic thing for the University of Limerick it's something we really, really want to get involved in and the more we do of it the better it's going to be just for Limerick it goes back to the point that Steven made at the outset about seeing ourselves as the net benefactors of cash as a twerp from Europe we often lose sight of the fact that access to the single market is one of our biggest advantages in terms of our capacity to attract foreign investment that has allowed us to increase our employment specifically in the Midwest and we've positioned ourselves very well because of our university sector our general education sector our English language speaking capacity to attract the foreign investment particularly from the United States that has allowed so many of those major multinationals to position themselves here and gain access to the single market and that often gets lost in the debate it's probably brought into pretty sharp focus now when we're discussing the exit of Britain from the Union and the implications for Britain in terms of maintaining their investment profile and we saw an artwithstanding deals that appear to have been done with the automotive sector by the government soon after the initial vote that they haven't stood the test of time and we have seen in recent weeks Nissan indicating that they weren't going to continue to produce one of those I think it was the Nissan X-Trail or whatever in the Midlands so we have to re-engage to some extent to see what the real benefits of our membership of the Union is on a commercial and economic basis rather than just the cash to do the roads which we all became familiar with and took for granted the fact that much of the employment that has succeeded in changing the face of the West of Ireland even from the time that I grew up out in County Clare just to see the propensity of the growth of foreign investment and the associated jobs just right here between Limerick and Shannon and what that has allowed people to come back and leave and work in this area of course we could start arguing amongst each other about how well that is working or isn't but that's the politics of it but the big picture is really the fact that we have access to the single market and of course as Deirdre has rightly identified that has transformed Irish agriculture really in a huge way and has allowed so many more people to remain in these rural parts Katrina, I'm interested on that point of Ireland really taking the mantle of this small open globalised economy yesterday the European Commission announced or released their country reports and what almost criticism of the Irish economy is that maybe we're becoming a little too dependent on foreign direct investment and a lot of our indigenous companies aren't building up do you think there's a balancing that needs to be done like with your experience at Limerick Chamber of Princes that would be interesting to see? Definitely, just to say as well just because it extends into this point that we've gotten a lot out of the EU but there's potential there for more because with Chambers Ireland we've travelled to Brussels last week and we got a few briefings while we were there and it was made very clear that Ireland is quite good for submitting applications under the horizon funding system but there's other funds that are available for urban innovation and so far up until just this year they hadn't received any applications from Ireland they received one from Dublin for just the next funding level for 2019 which I found quite shocking given the fact that our regional development is so important under our national planning framework so there is untapped potential there and it is something that we need to use in order to balance our local economies as well because we know from Limerick that we had an over reliance on one particular company going back to 2009 and we did and if we look at the statistics and the economics back in that point we had a situation where manufacturing represented about, of all people employed in Limerick represented over 35% of where our employees were based if you look at the Limerick economy now what we'll see is that we don't have any industry that over 20% of our employees are employed in so now we've diversified our economy but we need to do more that's not on the Limerick level so we need to expand this more because we do have an over reliance on multinationals they obviously create its job creation they bring a lot of benefit to the country we don't want to cut them off and say that's for a grand, we're only going to grow our indigenous industries now that's not what I'm saying but it definitely is, it's a balancing act and it's all about implementing the right policies but we can't successfully implement those policies if we don't have the implementation mechanisms which all boils down to funding and the EU is core for that in terms of regional funding for us and getting to that point I think I might open the floor to some questions from the audience and if anybody's in handy and I think it's, I'd like to reiterate that if you don't be afraid to ask what you might consider even a basic question about how these things work or about something that's going on in the EU at the moment any last one would be great so we'll start to hear this gentleman here Hello, I'm Edward Horgan to ask dear little one in particular why are Finnegale and the four MEPs from Finnegale in particular advocating the end of Irish notality joining Pesco, joining the European Army which will have huge cost implications for the Irish taxpayer as well as implications for our soldiers serving overseas they will no longer be able to benefit from Irish notality which is a life-saving issue for Irish soldiers Well Finnegale, actually the Dáil has voted to join Pesco so Finnegale MEPs didn't have a say in that but I would have supported it if I was there and Finnegale, of the four MEPs, right we produced a policy having looked at how he worked in bringing a member in the last five years in the European Parliament and we see the need for Ireland to participate in defence and security issues because security is very important now and we can benefit enormously from participating in security on a European basis similar to the discussion we've just had the synergies that are there and the economies of scale we can benefit from that we are not in no way undermining Irish neutrality that's recognised in the treaty but we do want Ireland to continue in peacekeeping missions and we're very proud of the Navy service we have and the activities that are going on in the Mediterranean at the moment in helping rescue missions there very proud of the contribution we make at a UN level and we want that to continue but we have and that's it it's not about our neutrality I recognise that we're military neutral but in some areas we need to cooperate more in order to protect our citizens here on this island and our citizens when they travel across Europe because we've seen in the last number of years the rise in terrorist attacks the threat from cyber security there's none of us immune from it and no business we've seen what happened to the HSE and there is nothing immune from the threat that is there from cyber security and we need to participate at a UN level and that's what our policy proposal was about PESCO is about participating in missions that are in line with our neutrality and already since the Dahl has approved PESCO Irish Guardi and military personnel have participated in training exercises to equip them to deal with the threats that can only benefit from the synergies that are there at a European level so that's probably the policy that's been misinterpreted but that's what it's about Thank you Yes, gentlemen, there it's back PESCO is a military alliance and if you read up on that as I have when we have it is the first step into a European army now there's no point in trying to deny this we were told this was for various things like humanitarian stuff and missions across the globe and all the rest of it but in actual fact it is a military alliance and it is stated by the big powers in Europe that a European army will be put in place and we already have our foot on the first step or maybe the third or fourth step but please don't insult our intelligence by telling us it's not a military alliance it's a scandal that our country could take such a step without consulting the people of Ireland It was, sorry, just to repeat PESCO and Tim you're a member of the Dall, it wasn't I know, I know, I know It's been passed by the Dall So we can't have the debate well, you can have the debate but it hasn't been passed it's nothing to do with the European power it's been passed by the Dall it's a national decision and you participate in missions that are aligned with our neutral position not every mission, we participate similarly our participation in the UN peacekeeping rescue and humanitarian rescue missions and that's what we do and I think from what I know and from speaking to Irish people they are very proud of the contribution that our defence force does make in those areas but and that's where it is so I mean, if I was a member of the Dall I would have supported that decision but I wasn't excuse me, we were already involved in peacekeeping we were already involved in saving migrants and the rest of it and Mr. Dooley's party was, gave it the big nod why were not the people asked their opinion on it and why, and if you're so insistent on our neutrality why is it not put into our constitution? I've been asking politicians this for the last five years I get a fob off people burning down the clock on me why is it not in the constitution? If you're insistent We have a politician here we're going to have one last word one last word on this My knowledge the position on military neutrality is a political decision and it has never been in the constitution and that would reflect on why the Irish people weren't offered an individual opportunity to learn on it as they're not generally on policy matters there isn't generally a vote about specific policy matters but I'm confident that our position of military neutrality still remains enshrined at policy level and as you're aware there's a triple lock mechanism whereby if the Irish state is to become involved in any issue in terms of participation it requires a government decision followed by a decision of the dog and in the first instance it would have to be a UN mandated requirement and so those protections are there and they have stood the test of time and in my view the issue that you raise is you have a different opinion to me and others and you're entitled to it for sure but it doesn't in my view infringe on the position of neutrality as we understand it Okay sorry thank you sir we're going to move on You'll be happy to know that the IAA has produced some brilliant papers on this topic and some of which might be available here some of which are available on our website so we're going to move on to a new issue here I thank the other two for the question I do respect your opinions but I'm about to be sworn in as a reservist next Tuesday and I'm a hopeful cadet I actually thank Pesco because it's about to improve my pensions and it's about to improve my pay and I do not feel that it impedes on my neutrality now I'm going to move on with a different question other than Pesco What is the EU going to do in new legislation maybe for the disadvantaged areas that may have voted for Brexit? Does anybody in particular want to I think we're just using the hand mics then but if you want to however you want to the disadvantaged areas that may have voted for Brexit are they're the areas that are leaving or do you mean disadvantaged areas anyway across Europe that could be yeah the type of yeah and I know and I suppose the issues around why did people vote for Brexit probably globalisation is an issue so it would be one of the issues there is a big emphasis on I mentioned the European Social Fund when I came it was spoke at the beginning and there's a big emphasis on providing funding to to retrain people to reskill them that would require obviously jobs in the area as well but there is a strong focus on upskilling retraining people lifelong learning the European Globalisation Fund which has been mentioned in the context of of the midlands and the closing down there of the names of the bogs I'm sorry there's the European Globalisation Fund there that can a direct fund to help individuals to support them in the event of a global that globalisation should should affect their employment situation now I think that in my view that was a lot of the issues the people felt that their jobs were gone and that this was all about and you're bringing it you know there was people coming to their country probably and they felt we're displacing them in their communities so there is a a realisation that we need to you know some of those of us who think we know who think everybody understands what's happening in Europe and who understand globalisation is there to stay we think that everybody that that that's that we've realised that not everybody understands that and that people need to be helped and that you have to maybe take a step back and slow it down and help people and bring people with you and help them in their situations because not everybody is going to benefit from a growing economy as we know did you want to answer a question as well? yeah so um I think we'll just use this so um one of the things that I some of my jobs is I run a project called Rebuilding Macro Economics with the National Institute for Social Research in the UK and we I run a project called Has Globalisation or Can Globalisation Benefit All is the the name and we fund projects within the UK but also across Europe and in America in and one of the things we're looking at is basically compensating what in economics you call the losers right so so basically trade increases trade increases overall welfare and that's great but some people lose out because manufacturing moves and services move and so forth one of the really interesting things about that about these new strands of research is that they're showing that there's this really interesting like very nuanced connection between social groups and the behaviour of these massive multinationals right so when we talk about globalisation we really mean the increased interconnection of markets and that actually happens through big companies global value chains so like you know your iPhone is made in about 10 different countries and they all connect together and they create value by when somebody like pays for your phone right but there's this really interesting thing is happening in Switzerland and Germany and other places it turns out that the largest increase in manufacturing employment in the world is in Myanmar and that's because they have absolutely no labour market regulation so people are happy to work these one of the some of the poorest people in the world half to death and many of these companies are Swiss so Swiss civil society in the same way that we would have activated civil society for the repeal movement or for the same like legislation or for other movements like abolishing water charges and so forth they got together and they said this is against our national identity they said we are Swiss we follow the rules that's our national identity you are Swiss you're a Swiss multinational you are not following the rules you must change your behaviour and the Swiss multinationalists are saying yeah but we're making loads of profits is that not okay and they're like no that's not okay right so they're changing the rules and this is happening not just in Switzerland but in Berlin and other places so we're funding research to actually go and check out and see why that is so you've got civil society that's actually coming up and saying there is a problem you need to solve it and they're activated before there's like a big brexity referendum thing before we go oh my god this is a disaster right and I think it's really interesting that it's not coming from the political system it's not coming from academia although there are obviously elements there it's coming from civil society and I think there's there's something about that that I think is really powerful that we haven't seen before it's it's genuinely new and the only thing that's even close I think is the suffragette movement and you've got to go back a fair whack of a way before you get something as transformative as that so yeah I think I think there is a lot going on and and there is a fair fair whack of money in fact there to help solve some of the problems in the second row here this gentleman does it have a theme that's the rise of the data I'm just sorry everybody can hear you does it have a theme that the rise of the right wing and nationalistic type parties in Italy, Hungary, Poland and maybe certain elements in other countries has been caused by some of the actions by the EU and apparently a threat actually to the long-term stability of the EU and is there anything that the EU can actually do to counter that threat so the question is is it a backlash to the EU policy does anybody have a theme please I think there's a couple of factors I think Stevens rightly identified globalization being one of the ones that has been kind of simmering beneath the surface we've all been looking at the positives of globalization without really identifying the threat that existed as people's stake in society or loss of value perhaps emerge from it and I think what happened in the United States with the election of Donald Trump largely identifying that Rust Belt zone as being those that were forgotten by globalization and you know this idea somehow that you were going to recreate a steel industry and a coal industry despite the fact that everybody had moved on was somewhat offering a solution that we shouldn't have believed in or we didn't believe in but certainly people who had nothing were prepared to take a risk and yes that's part of the problem of globalization I think some of the issues that are also emerging at European level has been the perceived threat of migration and a belief that the level that people had within an economy was threatened by the broadening of our borders and the opening up of our borders to people from outside who were in a much more desperate situation so to some extent we had lost our sense of wanting to reach out and help people who were in really bad state and people becoming a little bit more protectionist and that tends to happen as people get better off it's in a society where people have more disposable income that they feel they want to protect what they have have achieved and maybe we're somewhat the downside of our successes that we have created of people or we have allowed certain people to believe that they don't have the same responsibility to the less well off outside our shores and then you get along come somebody like Nigel Farage which we're aware of and others what's happening in Hungary and Poland is a little bit more subtle but it's going the same direction and you've always had some difficulties in Italy again focused primarily on the reaction to the migration that has largely been as a result of the war situation in Syria what can we do about it? I think we've got to hold fast on the principles and the guiding principles on which the European Union was founded I think responsible parties have to speak out and speak up and seek to continue to maintain those those principles rather than seeking to try to you know in some way respond as the others might expect I think that's where the challenge will be that we set out you know what Europe's about what we're trying to do how you benefit by sticking with it rather than allowing it to in times of difficulty to just start start looking within our national borders I mean I think we've seen how we came through the difficulties of our own economic crash some might argue that we didn't get the support that we might have expected from the European Union others might say that we were we were well supported and as a result of that we're now back in a strong position again whatever position you take on that particular outcome we're certainly better working together around the principles of pooling and sharing our sovereignty but most importantly ensuring that we continue to respect the basic rules of law which unfortunately is not happening in Hungary and Poland and we see those that regressing I think the Union have a responsibility too to challenge that and I think the likes of Victor Orban and others need to feel to some extent a level of isolation for their continued their continued propagation if you want of this capacity to be part of the Union but yet apart from the Union so there's there's going to be a job of work to be done on the other side of the elections Yeah, you spoke about right wing and the rise of right wing I'd be very fearful of it and I am and I think it's going to be you can see it now in well in Hungary and Italy as well right wing parties are in government Netherlands almost made but will be there and Nigel Farage as well and a lot of it from what I see from the work where I am placed is a is a reaction to migration and the migration crisis we can speak of it here but it has been enormous the impact on some communities in like Greece, Italy Malta, Hungary that's where they close down their borders at one point I remember speaking at the height of the crisis to a colleague living who was who had been mayor of Salzburg she's a member of the parliament now and at every point in her small town of Salzburg there was two to three thousand people per night sleeping on county or city hall floors and school halls as they moved through Europe so if we had that wave of migration through this country I think it might be we might have a different reaction to it so what has happened since well it has thankfully the huge wave has it's not to the same extent it has reduced but there's still migrants are coming and we see the stories of people victims of smugglers there are people smugglers they're being in the Mediterranean Sea as I spoke of earlier on but what has been the reaction to it is you know Europe recognized that it's this point of that you have open borders in Europe which is great but it doesn't make any sense then you need to control the external border you need to develop a system and you need to be practical about a system where you have legal migration rather than illegal migration now I'm not talking about refugees from Syria at all I'm talking about migrants from economic migrants or climate migrants now at this stage but we need to be you know we can't have open the doors all the time we need to or have every door open but you need to develop a system where we have legal migration you need to help work with Africa and there's an African trust has been established now whereby it's three billion this year and previously there was funding to help it to work directly with education facilities developing governance helping countries there I'm a member of the EU Africa alliance and we meet twice a year at summits but and so and maybe we've heard the story before but I think in the last five years we've seen changes in this area and unless and like last week ending in Egypt there was the first European Arab summit the first time ever and that's the thinking behind that is we have to migration isn't going to go away it's something you can deal with and say that's it we've thrown money and it's gone no you have we have to work with it and we have to work with it as a union and because from it has come the rise of nationalism and Angela Merkel reminded us when she spoke in the parliament last September that she saw she said like the rise of nationalism was the start of World War I and World War II and we're going to break up the union that everybody has worked so hard to build we need to understand where this rising nationalism has come from and work to address it and to redress it and Katrina I'd just like to bring you in here just bring that idea back to the money topic because do you think in any way has the EU's economic policies brought about a bit of a backlash because you know it's I'm sure we can find consensus on the group for example in the Polish situation that we all agree in the idea of a judiciary and democracy and rule of law but in the example of Italy for example that the commission is now censoring Italy because they're spending more than 3% of their budget to GDP ratio that's not a hard and fast economic rule so what is that an example of the EU you know going a bit too far or you know things like inflation targets all these economic areas that have an ideology behind them do you think that's something that EU should step back a bit on I think it certainly feeds into it but I think sometimes you know particularly when it boils down to economics like the whole migration debate you know at the epicenter of that is it's economics you know and it's kind of disgust and it's really frustrates me in some aspects where it's used for scaremongering tactics in a certain way and you know we have to understand that yeah there are downsides to start to migration in some seven in terms of pressure on our resources you know there's but there's a scaremongering around you know lots of jobs are and I can understand the social aspects with pressure on hospitals and schools and things like that I understand that but there's also benefits to migration as well you know there's particular skill sets that we absorb within our economy when we have people come in from other countries because you have to remember that a lot of the poorer countries some of these individuals are highly skilled particularly around medicine you know so we are getting some skill aspects coming in there's definitely our economic elements that have been imposed particularly we're like I'm going to I want to introduce the millennial aspect here okay and the fact that you know because of particular banking rules that have been put in place the pressure now on millennials to be able to afford their own house or to get access to funding from banks because of the lending rules you know there is going to be a backlash around that there's always you're always going to try to blame somebody you know but I think as well that I know brown people I am a millennial and I know around people my own age the ignorance around certain topics as well you know we just seem to lash out without trying to understand you know is this actually something that is being directly imposed by the EU or is it something that our national government has you know decided that this is a policy we could potentially implement you know and sometimes we don't we don't directly understand that we place blame where it shouldn't be placed but I do think yeah there is that economics is at the core of a lot of the the backlash we get nationally for certain things we have about 10 minutes left so what I might do is take a few final questions and then I'll give the panelists a chance opportunity to either respond to them or just wrap up so yeah my name is Jason I'm currently seeking a fee and a fall nomination to contest the European elections but I I suppose I just want to make three points I suppose the first one is directed to Steve in regard to the fact that the debt to GDP ratio of the world is about 300% and the German economy is at a standstill what effects will we'll say squaring the circle between a fiscal fiscal rule and a monetary rule have effect in Ireland bear in mind the CCTB and also the change the proposed changes to the rules to both from a unanimous voting issue to a we'll say a quality of majority what are the hidden dangers in that I suppose the second point there is basically a dear to rightly pointed out that the over 80% of our budget is in full Niagara the concerning thing to me is the competitive and growth area is only just over 10% and I suppose two things really light up as the strategic the European strategic investment fund of over 500 million hasn't been tapped in for the last three years called the Yonker fund and also unless it has been reached last year and also I suppose the area of major infrastructure funding as well hasn't been tapped in bear in mind that Brexit has happened in 2016 to vote and we're here preparing for Brexit we haven't accessed that funding and the third point there is basically in light of the news today about this from Raza and we said the 16 or 19 children that are not allowed access to that drug on the cost basis isn't the time that we had an EU drugs program where all all these drugs that have been passed by the European Medicines Agency are available to all citizens at the same price okay I might just take all the final questions and then we'll wrap up if you don't mind just for time I'm gonna have to work hard to remember that those questions so okay thank you thank you Steven stole my lunch a little bit and Timmy to a certain extent when you mentioned the Swiss and I think if the Swiss ever get an opportunity they should mention that the Pasquale don't know about Apple and they're 0.5% tax but in any event my point is when we started off with and populism and Timmy referred to you know that we have to stay fast with the fundamentals of the EU and with all the research we do and this plays into Brexit as well the biggest mistake I think Europe made was that the morning after the English referendum on Brexit that they didn't turn around and say hang on here we've made a mistake we need to talk to you even at that stage it should have been done beforehand but instead of which the politicians in Europe threw petrol on the fire now I'm convinced that we're we've missed the bus by probably 10 years in terms of this populism thing and you know I think the research we should be doing is we should be asking even our own people what's the problem because there are problems lots of problems with Europe and like the Pesco people here I would support them 100% I'm not here because of that but I would support them 100% but there are lots and lots of problems that the research should be asking people what is wrong with Europe and how far back do we need to go before we get rid of this populism do we go back to a European an EEC and bring it back to there and let us all work away in peace and I think that's like I think we're in serious serious trouble in Europe and Brexit is only it's most green covering it up thank you any last ones then I think there's two more is that the only two left and then we can move to the final ones okay yeah my name is Joachim Fischer I'm lecturing in languages in UL Stephen Stephen said that post-Brexit Ireland is going to be the largest English-speaking country in the European Union that's correct but there is another way of looking at the linguistic situation and that is that the number of native speakers in the European Union is going to drop down to 1% so in that context I'm there is no question that English will remain the main language of communication I don't doubt that for a second but I also doubt that there will be absolutely no linguistic consequences to this new situation in the sense that the percentage of German speakers French speakers Spanish speakers it's all going to go up this is just numbers this is just statistics and in that in that context I'm wondering whether we do enough to address this language there is of course there is the languages policy and that is a great document but we're always great at policies the implementation is a different matter altogether and there is even and I know this this meeting here is addressing economic matters first and foremost but there is of course an economic dimension to this as well because our links our economic links with the continent are going to become more direct we hope to be selling more directly into the continent bypassing Britain and in that context I always think of Willy Brandt who when he was chancellor and interviewed in English he said if I want to sell to you I'll speak English if you want to sell to me then you have to speak German and there is a point to it you know even though we're moving I fully accept that we're in a language that in a linguistic situation that is dominated by English thank you I think there was one more question here do you want to I should go a little bit back going back to the very first point that we actually had about was on the Macron setting up the European funding methods the one thing I would actually have with that is does it not just kind of just put a band-aid on the problem that exists like the way I would kind of see it is you can approach the crisis use in different ways not necessarily one is better than the other but wouldn't it be the institutions that need to be stronger to deal with and actually have the ability to do it wouldn't it be more better to focus on those versus then just think let's create a fund for when things eventually screw up versus let's see if we can strengthen the institutions so they can actually deal with things and respond okay thanks so I think I'll just give everybody maybe a chance to either deal with specific things there or do any concluding remarks I think Stephen you got about 16 questions there so I might start with you you had you had squaring the circle of fiscal policy CCCTB QMV and would you like to deal with any of them right okay so one of the best things about doing something like this is I always learn loads so thank you very much I had never I've been writing about this almost on a weekly basis and tweeting about it and we are talking about it I've never once thought about the linguistic consequences of Brexit so thank you very much for that that's brilliant I was talking with somebody today about the the idea of a European drugs policy one of the big problems that we have in Ireland is that with a highly responsive political system and a fairly weak technocratic system when somebody comes up when somebody comes up with a kind of a relatively emotionally connective story and it doesn't I'm not necessarily talking about or can be or any of of these important drugs what I'm actually talking about is that's how our system works I said and you can talk about it in terms of nurses pay or pick anything right as long as it is sufficiently emotionally powerful and has a sufficiently concentrated a group of people around it and has a bit of public support pretty much will increase spending on the thing whatever the thing is this is grand as long as the thing is not rapidly increasing in price so that's what's happening with medical inflation so you have the structure of our current system you have vast increases in medical expenditure and you have a health system that's in a bit of a problem so we've already spent it's week nine of 20 26 yes but we're already finished with our the increase in our drug budget like it's actually finished we're all of the increases that we have planned to spend on new drugs are now over we've done it all so you think we're not going to spend on new drugs for the next while of course we are so should it be done at a European level absolutely because it avoids this issue it also stops the problem that we have here which is a lack of economies of scope we're not big enough to say no no no if we vote if we if we buy as a block and we should then we would get the kind of price discount set to get the at the NHS it would also mean by the way that people who want life-saving and expensive drugs would have a very different process to go through right so that's in another room there's a positive and a negative to that the on the common corporation tax base is this coming absolutely about 40 to 60 seconds after the brexit thing is sorted approximately 62 seconds somebody's going to go yeah but that corporation tax lads right that's the next thing like be aware that's the next thing it's going to come to be fair it kind of should right if we're it it kind of should but that removes a very significant advantage that we have it also by the way stops people like me getting bashed over the head with it everywhere we go right and I personally I'm looking forward to that because I think we can compete without it what was the next one sorry yeah so the European investment bank is an extraordinarily powerful engine it's probably responsible for all of the increase in expenditure in higher education for example in Ireland or almost all of it and it's being extremely powerful should it be doing more absolutely and during a crisis it should be doing three times as much which answers your question the reason that you would do it is because in a crisis like you can compare Ireland and Nevada yeah both both are small places that had have one big city where there was a housing crisis right and Ireland went lads you need austerity for the next 10 years and Nevada went here's some money from California came over that was it right so it it solves that problem institution without needing to worry it's automatic fiscal transfers that was it do I get like a prize or you know okay cool right okay okay well John and well I won't go back just a few things you mentioned EIB and their investment I mean they are there and they're crying out for projects and but they're here in Limerick investing in the regeneration Limerick Shannon Foynes has received funding from the Connection Europe Fund for developer to look into to for its jetty extension and the rail link so there is funding there and there is funding coming but it's a matter for the member states or the local organizations or the relevant authority to seek that funding and to to work with it and I think actually from an Irish point of view we need to work as a as a as a as a national unit rather than Shannon Foynes Porta Cork Dublin Port doing their thing or you know we can need to work together on that as a unit and I think you're stronger stronger like that absolutely on the cost of medicines I think there is something being done to to improve purchasing power you know it's easy kind of to scale we're a small country something being done at European level and it's not it's not a European issue it's more like-minded countries getting together to improve their their purchasing power but obviously and it's a benefit that we should we should we should use as being members of the European Union there was so populism and populism is something we could have and we could be here until midnight discussing what is it it's it's it's simplistic I think it's simplistic it takes time and you need to react to it and you need to explain and we you know you do hear a lot about populism blame the EU for everything and should we be better off without the EU but would we be we look where we've far we've come would we be better off you mentioned in Mumbai the working conditions there when we before when we know we have I've spent time recently working in the employment and social affairs committee I'm on the working time directive work-life balance we've just completed today I'm looking for flexible working maternity leave paternity leave paternal leave holiday leave would we be doing that if we weren't members of the European Union environmental protection of our waterways and our air would we be would be doing that we'd be I don't think so I think we'd be dragged kicking and screaming but nobody would be dragging us we'd be on our own so I think we need to you know understand it's not just all about economy and single market and it is it's that's very important but there are other areas that we need to and I need to doing it and Tim and we all need to be doing it because the people who come along here obviously have an interest in the European Union trying to understand it and we all need to be doing it and explaining and it takes time but you have to counteract the negatives with real facts and with with reality we had a very interesting discussion looking at Macron versus Marine Le Pen in their presidential election and he just stayed calm he kept reacting and counteracting and counteracting and countering with facts and with reality and he wore her down and if you look you look back and analysis of all those debates she wasn't making sense and statement she was making had nothing whatsoever to do with the European Union or decision making there there were national local issues so there's a a battle there and on the languages the question I hope I'm not missing any question but the language is the working language is English now but we need to be doing we absolutely as a country we need to be doing more where I mean I'm embarrassed I have my leaving certificate French and I try and survive on that I don't have I have Irish and English I don't I'm not very strong on my Irish because since I left school I don't speak it but and I'm not blaming the fact that we study Irish but there's some people are lots of people those Europeans they all have a very strong second and third language and if we're going to be a country the only a small country trying to not survive in Europe but benefit in Europe we need to have a we need to do something about our languages I mean I just just as a follow-on in relation to the populism to to Michael's point just because most of us in this room believe in the European Union recognize the tremendous benefits that has been to our economy to our people to our social life and to all aspects of life does not mean that everybody else gets it in the same way because it speaks to your point about the millennials and to a different generation that you know it's not about taking for granted but they have never known anything different and therefore there's a job of work a continuous job of work to explain where it has come from and the real benefits and also to you know that it's not the solution to all our problems neither is a regression into a sort of an individualistic or a nationalistic approach to the management of our economies so I think we need to continue that debate and as as Deirdre has said in relation to McGrown versus Le Pen we need to challenge the populist leaders I think much of it is coming from people who are deeply concerned about their capacity to educate their children like we can see to some extent how even within our own economy a certain a certain element of the middle class has been hollowed out so so and it's just the way wage inflation has gone or hasn't gone for some people somebody who had a decent job in Ireland maybe in a in the ESB or in the old air come or was it mid-level civil servant you know 20 30 years ago they were reasonably well off they could know that they could educate their kids they could live out a decent reasonably decent lifestyle and provide for their future and for their retirement just the way the disruption that has come in the economy that's no longer the case so that has created tensions as all disruption does within it within an economy that has created you know real concerns amongst people and the same is happening throughout Europe and some of that of courses as I said as a result of globalisation so to some extent I think the the cycle of activity and the focus on nationalism at the minute is connected to the economic cycle perhaps the next economic cycle will undermine to some extent the the nationalism trends that have have emerged but it won't happen on its own and it requires a continuous level of education and people speaking out and identifying you know the difficulties that arise from that sort of hyper nationalism and to try to to look towards the benefits of a sharing and pooling of our sovereignty and our resources in a manner that will benefit all of us thank you okay I'll be quick so just to I suppose the point that was made about languages is a very very important point and it was something that actually came up last week on our visit to Brussels and it was highlighted that particularly for Ireland you know we do have quite a poor uptake in terms of of foreign languages and it's something that we need to deal with at a national level but it's concerned it was interesting to hear that it was so concerning at an EU level as well because you reckon like it was the first time I really recognised the fact that a lot of talent that's based here in Ireland is excluded from going working within the European institutions and I think that that is quite worrying and it's something that definitely needs to be addressed your point I think we need both so we need stronger institutions in terms of monitoring but we also need the fund because it's not just one there's no one simple solution to preventing crisis in the future it's a multitude of different things but with the commission I'll give you an example overlooking it a lot of the controversy with the current structure at the moment is that it's deemed to be operating in a kind of a vacuum because of the way it was established outside of the treaties so really in terms of introducing the European Monetary Fund now the whole idea is we bring it back in under the law and effectively we create this separate body powerful independent institution that was governing instead of the commission the thing is though is that the commission became very political how do we stop this independence today from becoming very political also so it's a challenge but there's there's different aspects to it overall okay thank you well that's about it then for tonight I want to thank you all very much for coming it really means a lot to us coming down here and being able to have a good audience that are very engaged with the topic and I do hope you're able to keep in touch with the Institute of International and European Affairs either online or in our events that we're holding in Dublin and around the country and especially I'd like to thank the four panelists for joining us this evening I think it was really interesting and a very wide-ranging discussion that I very much enjoyed and I'm sure all the audience did so thank you very much