 Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to Senate Education. It is Thursday, March 18th, 134 p.m. Our miscellaneous education bill as well as school discipline advisory council bill passed. Which is great. So if Senators Chinden and Hooker wouldn't mind. Just staying, maybe working with Jeannie, she may be contacted or you may be contacted directly to present those bills in the House committees. And if for some reason you're not comfortable doing so, just give me a heads up, but the House will invite you up I suspect sometime next week to present those bills. Any tracking you can do as they make their way through the process that you're willing to do that would be great. Since when they come back, we'll look to both of you to lead us a little bit around the changes. And then you would be responsible for presenting any amendments that we might make on the floor that the House makes. As much tracking as you can do is as much appreciated. And of course, if you have any questions about that, please let me know. And then if we end up going to conference committees. You know, I don't know how Senator Lines has made these determinations in the past, but for me, the fact that you were both presented the bills would automatically have you on a committee of conference. And so it would be good first, you both to have be as fluid and as fluent as you possibly can be on these issues. So thank you both for that. Today we are returning to a topic that we've talked about in the past. It's our state colleges. I invited the Chancellor in to come in to talk to us with us about how things are going and to update us since a vote was taken by the state board with regard to next steps for the state colleges and before turning it over to her. I also want to mention that we will also be hearing from the Governor's Institute, as we are gearing up for summer programs the Governor's Institute has played a long and important role in the state, as it relates to opportunities for Vermonters. They're going to give us a little bit of an overview of where they are at, and then we'll return to H81. So with that, Chancellor, thank you so much for being with us very much appreciate it. And it looks like Ms. Lavasser, as well as Ms. Scott are also both with you today so we will. So welcome back to everybody and, and, Madam Chancellor, we'll let you will give the floor to you and we'll let you navigate this with your counterparts as you feel fit and so with that the floor is yours and looking forward to the update. Thank you. Thank you very much. Yes, I'm Sophie Zidani. I'm the Chancellor for the Vermont State College System. And with me today I have Sharon Scott who's our chief financial and operating officer, as well as Catherine Lavasser who is our director of external and governmental affairs. So thank you very much for giving us an opportunity to come back today and provide you with an update. I would add that we were asked to provide some written testimony and we have submitted that so just just for the record to be aware that there is some written testimony out there as well, in response to some questions that people had. So, it's just a quick recap the Vermont State College System, you know we do change the lives of thousands of students each year by opening the door to higher paying jobs and an improved quality of life for the students their families and their communities. We're comprised of four member institutions, Castleton University, the Community College of Vermont, Northern Vermont University and Vermont Technical College. Our mission begins with for the benefit of Vermont and the Vermont State College System is deeply rooted in the communities and regions of the state. We educate more Vermonters annually than all the other institutions of higher education in the state combined, and we employ thousands of Vermonters on our campuses and academic centers. In addition, our campuses and academic centers are also centers for academic excellence culture and community. So for over half a century the Vermont State College System has provided access to high quality post secondary education to students of all ages across the state. We view ourselves as the extension of the state's public pre kindergarten through grade 12 education system and then into the post secondary years and we serve over 10,000 Vermonters annually. And as we've previously shared with you the Board of Trustees has adopted for strategic priorities of affordability accessibility quality and relevance of academic programs. And to meet its mission and the strategic priorities the board has committed to making students our top priority, providing the support services and technologies that students need to ensure their success, delivering collaborative educational programs and services that are responsive to the needs and of the interests of students and employers throughout the state, operating as a responsive fully integrated administrative system under strong aligned leadership that actively serves the needs of students and the people of Vermont, by promoting efficiency, innovation and collaboration, and being positioned to deliver on these outcomes on an ongoing sustainable basis in what we all recognize as to be a severely challenging demographic, economic and competitive landscape. So achieving these outcomes will require the Vermont State College System and the state to undertake genuinely transformative change with regard to higher education and cultural change internally within the Vermont State College System. As we become an integrated high performing organization that measures its success in terms of student and state success, coupled with a change in how the Vermont State College System is funded and held accountable to meeting those performance measures by the state. And as mentioned, we've been turned to the transformation piece. In considering transformation we've been guided by the state's select committee on the future of public higher education in Vermont, as well as working with the legislature, the governor and our Board of Trustees. Even before the select committee was created last summer, we had already started working on internal transformation and moving towards more unified system operations. And one of those changes was to implement a system wide budget. Another was our work towards a common general education core across the system. As we're working to envision the Vermont State Colleges of the future, we've been looking to convert many of the challenges we've confronted both pandemic related and financial into opportunities for transforming the system to better deliver for Vermont and the students that we serve, and doing that looking for decades to come. We're also working hard to hold ourselves accountable. And we've been working with the Board of Trustees to ensure that there are strategic priorities and goals in place to move us forward, so we can continue meeting the needs of our students and the state. Additionally, the select committee in their upcoming final report is planning on including metrics for us in their final report, and the budget that's coming out of the house is also looking at ways to make sure that we're held accountable to the state, and that we're in a position to provide regular updates on our performance, meeting certain metrics and advising on what progress we're making making towards those. So we do look forward to reporting back to you and partnering with you as we work together to transform the Vermont State College system into the future. As we've been thinking about change, we've focused on three key questions with regard to the changes that are under consideration. The first is, does the change meet the needs of students. The second is, does it meet the needs of the state. And the third is, does it contribute to the Vermont State College systems financial sustainability. We've gone through this work, we've developed a number of key pillars. The first pillar is student success as our key focus. And that means that we're committed to delivering on the higher education and continuing education needs of Vermont and Vermonters, while preserving the high touch personalized approach and close knit campus communities that the Vermont State College system is known for. And in doing that, we're seeking to better serve students where they are with a learning modality that works for them on a schedule that works for them with the courses programs credentials, both credit bearing and non credit credit bearing that provide them with the skills they need to attain their life goals and doing it at a price that they can afford. The next pillar is education for life. And we're trying to create opportunities for Vermonters at every point in their adult life. So from the early college dual enrollment programs that we have for high school students to credentials of value for working credentials and those seeking to up skill and reskill. We do recognize that moving forward we need to develop even more high quality educational opportunities that meet the needs of students, employers and the state by expanding the availability of credentials of value, such as associates degrees and credentials and certificates that will enable our students to secure higher paying employment or advance at work. Additionally, we need to continue our work on creating stackable credentials within our degree programs, because that provides maximum value and flexibility to our students. The next pillar is that Vermont is our community. So, in addition to serving our students and meeting the workforce needs of Vermont, we are looking to maintain our physical presence in each of our current host communities. We're looking at combining a reduced physical footprint with expanded access to academic programs statewide and rural public institutions such as ours, we do provide crucial educational and employment opportunities to local residents. We serve as economic, social and cultural anchors in our host communities, and we do help to educate workers in high demand local industries, such as healthcare education, business, mental health counseling, hospitality and tourism. And the final pillar is consolidation of administrative functions. We do recognize that to achieve fiscal sustainability, we need to reduce administrative costs. And one of the ways we're looking at doing that is, is part of the transformation is, is this common accreditation that's been widely reported on. And the goal of the common accreditation along with other system wide administrative consolidation is to enable the Vermont State College system to avoid duplication increase efficiency, improve compliance and reduce costs. So, the select committee created has issued two reports the second one came out February 12, and on February 22 of 2021, the Vermont State College system Board of Trustees adopted the key recommendations that were in that select committee report. And that included an overall organizational structure for two complementary institutions with significant system wide administrative consolidation. And this means that we're looking to unify Northern Vermont University, Vermont Technical College and Castleton University under a single accreditation and single leadership structure, while maintaining the Community College of Vermont as a separate institution. And also looking at further administrative consolidations. The goal is to have the single accredited institution by the fall of 2023. We're doing this to better serve our students and meet our mission, but we also want to be clear that we are committed to maintaining our current physical locations across the state. And this is to unify in a way that our students and our host communities feel minimal impact, while also transforming us into the higher education institution the state of Vermont is asking us to be. So work on the appropriate academic program array for a combined Castleton University Northern Vermont University and Vermont Technical College is already underway, and that's grown out of the work that was undertaken by both Castleton and NVU and the fall to address program. So that came out of some, we had a VSCS forward taskforce last summer. And one of the recommendations of that group was that was that we look at eliminating duplicate programs. So we're also working on creating a single general education core, which is also part of one of the recommendations that came out of the work last summer. Another thing we're doing is working on looking to expand the successful hardness library model that CCV and Vermont Tech currently have, and we're looking to create a system wide virtual library. So we do recognize moving forward that we need to focus on the needs of Vermont and Vermont students for increased sub baccalaureate degrees and non degree programs, certificates and credentials. And to that end, we're looking to create a director of workforce development to serve as a single point of contact system wide for workforce development and continuing education programming. And accordingly, we're going to be developing a business plan and redesign business processes in this coming academic year with the hope of launching that by July of 2022. And then to the administrative consolidations, it is well recognized that the Vermont State College system needs to function as a consolidated system, rather than as a confederation of institutions. And we need to do that in order to realize the benefits of scale, and to overcome the habits of history. Creating and modernizing administrative services adds value through cost reductions, improve service for students and employees, and workable solutions to common problems. And the consolidation and modernization of administrative services also includes developing and enforcing a standardized set of policies and procedures for services system wide with delivery of services both in person and virtually. And to be clear, although functions may be centralized. This does not mean physical centralization in the Chancellor's office. Instead, functions may well be centralized on individual campuses, where there's particular expertise or where such expertise in a particular area can be created. So several of the areas that will be consolidated or have improved consolidation include procurement, financial aid, registration, admissions, marketing, information technology and human resources. So a successful transformation will require strong vision and leadership, discipline project management, establishment of relevant success metrics, exceptional change management and collaboration among all our stakeholders. And the slide that you now have in front of you is an illustration of what we're talking about here in terms of having two separate institutions and then significant overlap. As you can see in the middle as we look towards system-wide administrative consolidations. So as far as project planning goes, although the breadth of the transformation that we're proposing is revolutionary, we can build on the experience that we've already had through unifying Johnson and Lyndon. The leadership faculty and staff of NVU have demonstrated, for example, that a new brand and vision for education in rural communities can be developed while at the same time honoring the proud traditions and identities of individual institutions and programs. In addition, our faculty and staff have risen successfully to meet the challenges that were created by the pandemic. We're delivering education in new ways grounded in robust learning outcomes, collaborating and designing a single education curriculum, and doing all of that with a demonstrated commitment to diversity, equity and inclusion. So transformation is an enormous undertaking that will require substantial time and money. As reported by additional funding from the legislature, the transformation will position the Vermont State College system to evolve and adjust to the disruptive forces confronting higher education nationally, so that we can become financially sustainable. We can provide greater access to education to an increasingly diverse range of students at an affordable price. We can continue to be economic engines in the rural parts of the state, and we can serve as social, economic and cultural anchors in our host communities, as well as playing a critical role in meeting Vermont's future workforce needs. So preliminary work to map out the work ahead of us is shown on this slide. I know it's a pretty intense slide, but it maps out the different areas and sort of timelines for those. This includes academic administrative facility facilities, technology and financial planning to ensure that our transformation is successful. And I do want to be clear that although this is a pretty detailed look, we will continue to be evolving these plans as we move forward they're not set in stone I mean we understand that as soon as you want to take a project you're going to be adjusting how it is important to sit down and figure out how we would how we could do this and then the order of sequencing for different projects but it's as you can see from the slide it is going to be an enormous amount of work. The Board of Trustees is responsible for acting in the best interests of the system, and it has a fiduciary responsibility to protect the public assets of the Vermont State College system, including its finances, as well as its reputation and role in the community. It is responsible for approving major decisions for reviewing transformation progress and checking that benchmarks are being met. So this particular slide shows the Board's key decision points moving forward over the next five years in connection with transformation. And I'm going to turn it over to Sharon Scott to discuss the funding. Thank you. Thank you. Chancellor. Sorry, Trump. Do you have, did you email us that I'm just trying to find that on our website. I don't believe we emailed that we certainly can provide it to you. I wouldn't mind that and happy to do that. Yes. So much. Okay. So with the respect of funding, the select committee has proposed and the Vermont State Colleges is working to obtain the funding necessary from the state to address our structural deficit and COVID related expenses, the cost of transformation and a permanent increase in base funding to enable the Vermont State Colleges to operate in a financially responsible and sustainable way into the future. So this year, 2022, the Vermont State Colleges is seeking $66 million. This includes the historic base appropriation of 30.5 million, an increase in base funding of 17.5 million, funding to address the structural deficit of 25 million, and an additional reduction in transformation expenses. As you can see from this slide, the Vermont State Colleges actual need is $81 million, but through the generous investments up to the Vermont State Colleges by the legislature via the BAA, the federal hearth dollars coming into Vermont, and the internal austerity measures we are already undertaking, we've been able to reduce our request to $66 million. As an aside, in addition to the Vermont State Colleges budget request, when the budget comes over from the house, you may also see an additional one time $20.5 million critical occupations scholarship package to support our students over the next few years. This package proposal includes internship incentives, scholarships and workforce training proposals. We'd be happy to share additional details with you on this proposal today, or at another time, understanding that our goal today is to focus on the transformation update. So in closing, we know we've got a significant amount of work ahead of us, and we're not taking the responsibility that we have to our students, the state, our employees, our host communities, our stakeholder groups lightly. We're carefully planning our transformation now, and we look forward to your feedback and partnership on this in the months and years to come. We do recognize that in order to be successful, transformation is going to hinge on a number of things, and that includes ongoing support from the state, the approval of our accrediting agencies and the US Department of Education. The pandemic is brought under control and we can get back to some some form of normalcy, and that we are able to achieve the $5 million in cost savings and or additional increases into revenue each year. So again, we do want to thank you for inviting us in today to share an update with you of what we're doing with transformation. And we look forward to working with you moving forward. So thank you very much. And we look forward to any questions you may have. Questions, or even if senators in reviewing the other testimony, the response to questions that was submitted if anybody wants to highlight anything at this point or raise questions or concerns. Thank you, chair. I had a question, and maybe this isn't the written stuff I'm going to just look at it is you had mentioned the performance measures, and you mentioned something about either the house listed somewhere. I just wondered what what performance measures either have it been identified or you're thinking we would use to identify successful transition. So our board when we went through our strategic priorities exercise with our board in the fall. We came up with, they were very broad and obviously you can't achieve all those things right away. So we had identified a strategic focus on certain aspects of the of the priorities. And then we had come up with metrics that the colleges agreed to in connection to those and again they were around affordability accessibility quality of programs and relevance of programs. So in addition to that the select committee has also been looking at for their final report. What kinds of things can they put in there to to sort of help keep us accountable as we move forward to make sure that we're hitting and particularly you know hitting milestones in towards the transformation. And then I haven't seen the final version but I do know that the House Appropriations Committee had drafted some language around what they're calling I think requirements but things to put into with the budget bill to make sure that we're held accountable. So, you know, some of the things for example like the $5 million that we, you know we achieve $5 million in savings or increased revenue each year. And then most recently I think in response to other questions from other committee members in a House Appropriations some additional very concrete ones were added in terms of, I'm trying to remember demographics of the government sizes of courses being taught. There was some very very specific ones in there as well and again I haven't seen the final version but it had a pretty detailed set of requirements for us and I think part of the goal was also to make sure that we came back to report next legislative session to the Education Appropriations Committees commerce, you know, but we come back and report on all the things that we're doing. And that's, you know, right. Okay, so they have those requirements, and then the select committee maybe is taking your five or pillars and then putting some specific metrics on how that would be measured on going like something like student success. You know, unless you have the metric it's hard to tell. Right. So, it's, I mean I think that's really important and one of the pieces that we recognize is in order to pull this off we really need to have project really high quality project management and you've got to be able to measure to demonstrate that something's working. If it's not working strategies not working then you need to figure that out and is there another strategy that might work better so we recognize that we need both baseline data and we need to be in a position to measure ourselves to see where we're making progress or, you know, is there some other obstacle that we hadn't appreciated before that we now need to address as we move forward. So we really are looking for a much more data driven approach as we move forward on this. So will that be done by the board, or like the select committee will do a recommendation when you might vote to implement those metrics or to use those metrics to do that measurement of success. I would envision it to come from our board so again they've already agreed and accepted a set of metrics as we work on our current strategic priorities. We will have I'm assuming again I know the storm relatively early I guess in the budget process but I assume at the final end there will be in whatever the final budget is there will be things that will be required to to follow through on and I'm quite sure this round has been very responsive to the work of the select committee today so I fully expect that they will continue to look at what the select committee recommends. In fact, at our most recent education personnel and student life committee meeting with our board of trustees, we presented our first round of student dashboards, which really gave some really critical baseline information to our board of trustees that can be used as an initial baseline to be able to measure ourselves against the first step is always trying to figure out where exactly are you so that you understand where it is that you need to go. Part of those benchmarks for example we're measuring us against peer institutions, meaning rural small institutions that are comparable to ourselves. The good news in many ways, our performance is slightly better in many ways. However, it's still a difficult situation that we're in right now because we need to be able to be more than we are today, being slightly better than our peers isn't going to cut it, we need to be a lot better than our peers. And so, I think part of it is trying to figure out exactly where we are. And in conjunction with the select committee with the work that we expect will come we welcome requirements coming out of the legislature. And it's important to us that we give as much back to you so that you understand how we're progressing as you get from us. So, thank you. Senator Hooker I'm going to give the floor to you if you don't mind to manage questions I have to step out and return a quick phone call. And I'll ask a question as long as I have the floor. Thank you for being here and thank you for submitting answers to the questions that we had prior to this meeting to give us a chance to look at them. So I do have a few questions. First of all, one of the problems that we're hearing about with the emerging is the branding of this of each institution. And I'm curious to know you, we've already seen the coming together of Johnson and Lyndon into Northern Vermont University. And I'm wondering, you know, what was the cost of that merger and did it accomplish the goals that were intended? Yeah, I mean, and I would say yes, we certainly were able to realize a significant amount of cost savings from that. And again, I think our experience with Northern Vermont University illustrates that we do know what the challenges are. When we when we do this and we bring colleges together and we do know how strongly people feel about their individual campuses and their history and their traditions. Sharon was at Northern Vermont University, which was at Johnson State College for many years and then at Northern Vermont University and was there in an integral part of the unification piece. So I will let her respond to because she can give you some more color, I think, than I can. Absolutely. So, I can speak really clearly to the visceral visceral response that happens when someone says you're going to merge with a sister institution who has always been your competitor. All of what we're hearing from our constituents today are the same things that I heard then and then I felt I had been a longtime employee of one institution and was suddenly going to be working with two of our institutions as a combined entity. And so we had the ability to be able to meet the vast majority of the objectives that were placed before us. You asked about the cost of the legislature set aside $2 million through a special appropriation as part of the Budget Adjustment Act for us to be able to fund the merger activities related to creating Northern Vermont University. And those funds were spent in a wide variety of ways, everything from signage and changing the name on the sides of buildings and on the sides of vehicles, roadside signs, but also to address the actual brand as it's created. The underlying website, the marketing materials, and some initial advertising that went along with it. So it was a soup to nuts activity. It was not nearly as complex as what we're talking about here in terms of the transformation of the Vermont State Colleges. In that situation, we were just merging two institutions, not bringing together three disparate institutions, addressing administrative consolidations, and also simultaneously trying to make sure that we remove $25 million from our budget or increase the revenues on an ongoing basis. But it was an opportunity for us to make sure that we throughout the process continue to honor both institutions, maintaining local mascots and traditions. So there are traditions on both campuses that continue to this very day, the ringing of the bell, which is the down at the opening of a school every year on our Johnson campus continues to happen. And there is a dip in very cold water in the pond at Lyndon that continues to happen. And so there are many traditions that continue to remain that we would anticipate will continue no matter what we do. Those traditions are part of the fabric of the what makes a community a community. And so as we move forward, we will want to make sure that we understand what those are, and by working with the people who are current students, alumni, faculty, staff, and community members to make sure that we honor where we can. So it was, it was a big process, but I think we were able to achieve our goals. And I think that it will continue to be a big process and I appreciate the idea of the traditions remaining. I guess the question is the naming. And that that is, you know, one of this serious concern, certainly that we have in this section of the state. And if I can go on to just one more question before I pass it over to my colleagues. In regard to the finances of each institution. Are we going to know what each institution, you know, the finances of each institution where the successes are maybe where the failures are. Will we be able to parse that out amongst the pieces of the state college system. Merger is complete. I was going to say once. Yeah, right now we've we're moving towards a system wide budget. So last year the board decided to, we should move to a system wide budget. Previous we are one just to be clear where one financial entity where one corporate entity so all our finances are reported on a system wide basis. Right now we do have the ability to, you know, each individual college and the presidents manage their budgets to a certain extent. And again, system wide budgeting is really going to re rethink the way we do things. So when we, when we move forward, once we have a common accreditation, we won't be looking at separate statements for, you know, the Randolph and Montec campus or the Johnson campus. It will all be part of one institution. And that was really one of the reasons why the select committee recommended that we move in this direction. So for example they pointed out that there's a lot of data in the report but one of the things that's in the report for example is that Vermont technical college. The cost to deliver its programs is higher than it is for comparative institutions across the country. NVU does pretty well so NVU I think is like 8% more. But Vermont tech is is above. Castleton is also very expensive. And so, one of the things the select committee was thinking about with this is so for example for Montec, Vermont tech provides critical programs to the state. They're very expensive programs right they're much more expensive to to man a paramedicine program or whatever versus a history class. So, one of the things that's happened over the way we're currently structured is we're asking Vermont tech to really carry those very, very expensive programs alone. And so one of the reasons for combining together is to help to address some of the financial challenges in a way where we're doing it across the whole system. So, you know, I think this is moving forward. It's not going to be a question of well how is Randolph doing or how is Castleton doing it's it we're going to be looking as a whole. And again I think back to the comments I was saying earlier is rural public institutions will require a lot of assistance you cannot do that, depending just on tuition from students, particularly the students we serve where we're open access we're a lot of first generation Pell eligible students. So the students we have do not come from backgrounds where they can pay high tuition. So it really requires an investment from the state in order for us to be able to fund, you know, and provide high quality programming across the state in all these different areas so it's, you know, I know kind of where that sentiment is coming from and there's a sense of, you know, one campus is doing much better than other campuses. You know, one I think some of that data is not necessarily accurate but to that's not really the way to look at this moving forward the goal is going to be a we providing is this new entity providing high quality programs across the state that are accessible to students across the state, rather than taking a campus by campus look and again, we've been very clear, and I think the select committee has been clear I know our board has been clear. We may be really looking at the campuses may look quite different. Not all the campuses may necessarily look exactly the way they do today. So we were going to have to think we've again we've got to achieve a significant amount of cost savings here as we move forward. We're going to have to really innovate and think differently about what we're doing and how we're doing it. So it doesn't mean that every campus is going to do everything every campus is going to look exactly the way it is now, but we do believe it's really important to maintain that physical location to provide access to place bound students in the communities where they are. So, yeah, I mean looking forward, I don't, again, Sharon's the financial person here but I don't believe we'll be in a position to say, oh, look, you know this campus is not doing as well as this campus because it won't be divided that way financially. So we may not be able to do that because that isn't as a single institution that that won't be something that's available to us. What we may be able to do is to provide information regarding the amount of costs or the profitability of specific programs, because part of what we're doing is educating in programs that can be very costly to do so, but they're extremely necessary to the state of Vermont. It's also part of the affordability equation. So if we want to make sure for example that we are educating people in certain engineering or paramedicine type of programs, then we may have to be able to come to you and say, this is what it's costing to run this program, the number of students that we can have. Even saying nursing, for example, you can only have so many nursing students in a class, unlike a history class, where you could maybe have 30 students in the course. A nursing class doesn't allow you to do so. But we can perhaps provide you with some of that level of specificity. And as we start to look at the strategic financial planning of the Vermont State colleges. Those are the decisions that we really need to be able to look at and say, what does it cost to run certain things of certain programs? What kind of revenue are they generating? And is that program something that we need to continue to offer because it's a vital importance to the state? And because it's of such vital importance, we need to offer greater funding to that. That could be a location, it could be a program, but most likely it's a program. Thank you. And Senator Campion, I'll let you take over. I kind of monopolized that time that you were gone. I believe it's Senator Taranzini and then Senator Lyons. Thank you, Senator Campion. And Sophie and Sharon, nice to see you. I'll echo some of Senator Hooker's comments to you. You're blessed with two thirds of the Rutland County Senate delegation here in education. It might not be a blessing after I'm done, but look at, there's a lot that I could say. And I really, I'll just get to the point, I won't sure, but there's a lot in the county delegation that are really concerned that Castleton is going to get the short end of the deal here. And there's local municipalities are concerned, businesses are concerned about the Castleton brand. I apologize about the hammering. We have some work done here, but the brand of Castleton that that has been built over the last decade with Spartan arena and the new football stadium and the new dormitories and the programs added changing it in 2015 to Castleton from Castleton State College to Castleton University. That was a brand transformation that has made Castleton as a educational institution in this region is really put it on the map in our opinion. And to first of all, to change the name to whatever it's going to be Vermont State Colleges at Castleton really could hurt the image of this university. We think that more students attend or are attracted to Castleton with that university name at the end of it. And so, you know, we would really or I and others in the delegation that I've spoke to would really like to see the name Castleton University be at the front and then say Castleton University of Vermont State Institution or have a tagline at the end, but keeping that unique and I and special identification is critical, because we don't want to lose momentum and we don't want to hurt, not only the college, but the the economy in the Rutland region. My second point is, you know, going to a single corporation entity or or combining all the financials. And I say with all due respect could lead to the lack of transparency. It's really important for taxpayers and the legislature and students to know is, is this institution, a poll or a drag on the financial integrity of the entire program. This is Castleton funding and view or vice versa is Vermont tech, causing the system to go belly up. These are questions that I think people have and by combining the finances and not making it more transparent but some would say making it less transparent. It's not a good place to be. I think we all admit that we have a problem here, but each individual institution should have its own P and L statements, and we should be able to look at the at the super nuts of it and say hey listen, this school is profitable or it's not. And some would argue that colleges shouldn't run like businesses but I would say, if we had ran the state college system more like a business over the last so many years, we wouldn't be in the position we are today I think we have to have more of a business mind and look at those P and L statements and really determine is this school, a winner loser at the end of the day financially to the taxpayers of Vermont so. Do you want me to respond on that. Please. Yeah, so I mean as far as transparency goes mean all our finances are incredibly transparent we went through the state treasurer did a full analysis of us last summer. All our materials are publicly available on our website there's no lack of transparency about the state of our colleges. I think my mission as Chancellor of the Vermont State Colleges is to see it survive and that includes Carlton. This is a way for for Carlton to survive, to be honest, if we don't include Carlton in this. It is difficult for me to see how the Vermont State College system can survive unless the legislature is willing to support us at a much higher rate, moving forward. There are benefits that being in a system has pluses and minuses. So one of the pluses has been that over time over the past two decades, the, the, the, the being highs and lows for different colleges. So at times, different institutions could have gone under and were not didn't go under because they were able to benefit from being part of a system and receiving a system wide loan. One of the great ideas that if you have, and this is was the challenge with the proposal that was made last, last spring by the former Chancellor is if you if you close an institution, the cost of that institution then are born by the remaining institutions. So for example, if you shut down one entity, the retiree health cost the carrying cost the debt that that belongs to that institution, then gets pushed back out onto the remaining institutions. And I think what what the real the real situation that we were in was if that occurs that was going to bring down all the remaining other institutions within the system. And I think at this point it's a question of, it's not winners and losers within the system. I know there's a perception out there that Carlton is somehow better than stronger than other institutions in the system. Unfortunately, that is not accurate. Carlton has no strategic reserves has the has a debt alone that it owes to the system. That's the greatest amount of debt. So it has tremendous strengths. We certainly want to see Carlton survive we certainly want to continue the experience and the the passion that people feel for Carlton. We want them to have that opportunity we want students to continue to come to Carlton. So we're not looking here at picking winners and losers around the system. The point here is is that the colleges feel different niches. And there are other institutions within the system that are serving Vermont. They're serving students where they need to be served they have programs that are important to the state of Vermont. I get the name I totally understand that the challenge is is that as far as the our accreditors go the New England Commission on higher education, the Department of Education, we have one name. Once you're accredited as a single accreditation you have one name. There is nothing to prevent us from preserving the best of Carlton or from continuing to market. Carlton as a place to come to you and the experiences you can have at Carlton the football team at Carlton etc. But the, the, the overall name will have to be reflective of whatever the new combined entity is. So theoretically it could be Carlton University and then you know Vermont Tech is part of Carlton University and Northern Vermont University is part of Carlton University. I suspect that the folks at those communities would feel pretty strongly about that. But again we haven't made any decisions on names there will be a opportunity for input. The board will ultimately make the decision on the name. But I believe there are ways we can address the concerns that the Carlton community in the Rutland community have. These aren't unique concerns I mean people obviously feel very passionate about their institution where they work where they went to school. You know the memories and things that they have. So really this proposal is a way to make sure that we can continue to serve students around the state. We can preserve the education that we have, and that we really are serving the state because a lot of the programs that we provide a program so otherwise aren't provided across the state and they're vitally important to the workforce of the state so I do you know I've obviously I've been inundated with with feedback from people in the Rutland area I know this is a very emotional issue, but I really strongly believe that we've, we've got to survive and the way we survive is by working together. Moving forward that trying to pull apart is not going to be ultimately successful for us for the Vermont State College system or for the state. We have a follow up Senator Terencey. Yeah, thank you, thank you, and thanks Sophie for your response I would say that, you know my, our concern many of our concern around the county with the name is not of days gone by or feelings of nostalgia it is that there has been a powerful brand around the Castleton University name, and by changing it, it's going to be extremely detrimental in our opinion to not only the attractiveness of the school in the short term, but of our economic engine here in Rutland County, so that's it. One last question and then I'll let others ask, have, have you heard from a number of alumni who pledged to the school or give financially and who have said that they no longer would contribute to a to the university if it was called anything but Castleton. I have not but I do believe that Castleton has received some of those calls and again that's not particularly unusual for that to happen when you go through these these kinds of mergers. However, I can say that with the merger of northern Vermont University with Lyndon and Johnson, while there was a tremendous outcry of those who said that they would not donate actual donations went up in the year following the announcement, and they have continued to climb with the university receiving the single largest gift of the Vermont State colleges in this last six months. So, while that that is a possibility. Often what you find with a merger situation is that because there is greater attention placed on stewarding your donors and having reasons to be in contact with them that you can actually increase your donations. So, a number of my questions have been asked, but I'm going to ask them maybe a different way. So, one of the things it's all about the branding, of course, that's what everyone's talking about. What are we going to name this organization, going forward that's really so critical and important and I agree with everything that you all have said, I know some of you, but the when we, when we think of a CCV student we can characterize why a CCV student attend CCV and so that that's become extremely clear about folks needs and their long term goals there their need to enter a higher education, slowly and working full time, raising a family so we, we understand that sort of the non traditional educational process. I have a Kasselton State, a Kasselton University student. I don't know, I have kind of a thought about who those students are but have they have you characterized why they come to Kasselton and then have you characterized what is drawing students to the U, Lyndon and Johnson. So, is there a picture of those students and and then then to and I'm going to finish asking this question but I will have others. And then, have you looked at the, at the folks who are in those communities and around who have gravitated toward CCV, I'm leaving VTC out of it for right now come back to that. Had you characterized those students who might have gone to a larger longer, more intense program. Had you been able to characterize what their needs are in the NVU area so I thinking more about the student and and who the student is and what then attracts them into a specific environment. So we've, I mean, I think Sharon had mentioned our education personnel student life committee has really focused on seeking dashboard metrics in terms of who our students are and who we serve and I think you're absolutely right we need to know who we serve because we need to figure out how we can continue to serve them and make sure we're meeting the needs of all the students including students that perhaps we don't even have yet that we can determine that we need to reach out to and do a better job of reaching out to in the future. Castleton is certainly the more traditional 18 to 24 year old age group. Again, we have all this stuff broken out the profiles of students by institution. So certainly I think as we as we think ahead. One of the things we really need to focus on is how do we explain. How do we present how do we market the whole variety of different experiences you can have at the Vermont State College system I mean I think we have to focus on that. How do we serve the needs both of an out of state student who may want to go to a Castleton University, you know, the athletics and the community, the campus life that you have at a Castleton versus someone that wants to really hands on experiential at Vermont Technical College versus you know the experiences that students treasure that they have at Johnson and Linden. And I think part of this is going to be the work that we do moving forward and certainly as you look at that the timeline that we put out there. We're realizing that in order to do the transformation we have to do it sequentially so we've got to figure out what programs will we be offering and where will we be offering them. And we have to figure out the marketing, how are we going to market these programs, how are we going to market the new entity that's created, and then think about the admissions. And I think we need to think much more expansively about who our students are, and they're not just the 18 to 24 year olds they are also going to be, you know, high school students that are looking for early college experiences. They're also going to be people that have some college credits and never finished up they're going to be people that want to change careers or they want to go in a different direction or they need to up skill or reskill at work so we're going to have a significant change in terms of how do we reach out and market to all those different populations as we move forward. So in thinking about that, from the curricular point of view then, in order to make that attraction possible and to, to reach students that that might be more non traditional. You know, like individualized learning programs that include some technology or internal networking between and among your individual campuses that would allow for folks who are working with kids. I just think that I hope I'm just just, you know, I really would hope that there's some creativity going on, because otherwise, it will be just another college campus. And there's an opportunity here to have new, new structures. When you, when you taught we're talking about sort of amateurizing the physical plant costs and the costs across all the campuses. That's one thing that's great as long as you're not sacrificing the more costly programs such the sciences or, or nursing or some of those that are so critical, and then I'll just, I won't comment for that could go. This is a great conversation this would be fun to carry on with you and I enjoy it but you know when I think of Johnson I think of an arts center when I think of Linda and I think of meteorology you know so there are some things that we all can be very proud of in our state and VTC of course. But, but it is expensive and maybe there's some, some rationale for fine tuning what's that each of what's at that campus is compared with others so. I mean, to be to be clear we really are thinking about really trying to reimagine how we do things. And we do have faculty that have really stepped up and very creative and thoughtful. And, and so we already have faculty that are that are co teaching between Northern Vermont University and Castleton this semester with more coming next semester. So, someone can be teaching in a classroom on the Castleton campus we have an archaeology professor that Matt majority that's doing that right now. He's teaching in a classroom with students physically there, and then he has students appearing via telepresence from the Johnson campus so they've got a bigger class. They've got, you know, more diversity in the class they've got different opinions it's working very well. We have other, we have another professor we have a math professor at NVU Johnson, who has been teaching high level math courses. You know, quite how he does it but he teaches in person, synchronously which means there are students participating remotely at the same time the class is being held, and he's teaching asynchronously. So one class he's teaching three different ways. Instead of he normally would have eight students in the class he has over 20 students because he's able to attract students that again might be working parents they might be folks that want to be able to do it at the weekend in the classroom on their own time, but he's he's he's also able to teach it in person to the students that are there on the campus, and those that are remotely maybe you know students down at Castleton or whatever so we really have to be. You know that's going to be part of, you know, we're also requesting funding to really help us on the technology and to make sure that all of this happens but that would be the goal is that this is really about expanding opportunities for students, sometimes more available across the system so they're not isolated on on individual campuses, and that trying to be creative with it and again I know, you know many people will say you know online doesn't work or online students don't like online. The experience that we've seen is that online done well can be incredibly effective. We need to make sure that you're providing the professional development and assistant on on course design to faculty to make sure that they're able to provide the best quality programs that they can provide but we certainly see for example with CCV, who students are that you would think would be would need the most in person assistance, and yet CCV has very successfully transferred to being 100% online this this past year. They already were at a place pre pandemic where 50% of their courses were being taught online by choice student choice students were signing up for the online courses and filling them in. We've been able to see flex courses flexible start dates accelerated courses doing courses on your own schedule I mean there's just so many interesting and exciting things that are happening. And again it's all about trying to meet the students, where they are giving them the programs, they're looking for at a cost that they can afford, but also in a delivery method that works for them and for some of them it will be in person on campus and having a traditional experience for others it may well be, you know, working, working mom with little kids, it may well be that she's doing it at eight o'clock at night or at the weekends, and being able to be flexible and provide the courses that people are looking for in a way that they can access so I do think there's just tremendous potential here to really reimagine what we can do with the Vermont State College system. Thank you. I just have one last thing that just just to say that the that the term you use flexibility is absolutely key. And it's so key for the faculty and and administration, but being open to individual needs, and I include in that administrators and faculty and students alike. Otherwise, you end up with some disruption some concerns. Now finally this one last comment. All these things are so great that you're talking about but CCV is a brand that everything you've said about CCV we all know, and the students know it and perspective students know it. So how can that new opportunity at NVU, whatever the name is, characterize the new institution. I'll end there you don't have to answer the question. Thank you, Senator Chen do you want to close for us. Really quick because I know we have a full agenda and I just want to recognize Senator Taranzini's concern and Univm I believe green and gold and UVM is official name is the University of Vermont not you have the, and it's actually if you look at our charters the University of Vermont and state agricultural University but you never hear that other part. So I just know that when we put the some smart marketing people in the rooms we're going to I'm sure you're going to be able to maintain that Castleton University feel in that campus and I look over to New York where they have Sunni Plattsburg Sunni Albany. I'm not saying we want to be VSU, Castleton and so on but I'm sure that given the energy around keep maintaining that that history. That's what I've accomplished and I have heard the same from many constituents they don't want to lose that Castleton route those castles and I encourage the VSU to continue to pursue that. Thanks. Yeah, we've heard it down here, certainly as well. Any final questions or comments before we take just a five minute break and move on to the governor's Institute. Thank you. Thank you very much we always appreciate it coming and talking to you. So, we'll have you back I'm sure again soon. Committee let's just take five minutes.