 Hey folks, welcome to Don't Take Out Your Phone. Wow, I loved doing these podcasts. I had an awesome chat with Priyanka Lakia today. He was the anchor for Bloomberg Business in India and we spoke about everything from India's fantastic growth story to his journey from India to the UK and relations between UK and India and all that good stuff and I learnt a lot. And I hope you enjoy it. Hey, it's Lewis. Welcome to the podcast. Enjoy our conversations anytime, anywhere. Great, and we're live. Thank you very much Priyanka for coming on my podcast. Thank you all. We've been with each other for like a year or so already. That's right. Yeah, we had some good chats so we should have recorded all of them. But anyway, thanks. So we're at the House in Barnabas which is where we came about a year ago. It's a homeless charity and they've got a great recruitment academy upstairs so we're borrowing their room, which is nice. Lovely. Yeah, it was really cool. So it's been a really interesting story for you. That's right. You relocated for one of the fastest-growing economies, India, into one of the maturists, which is London. Brexit happened, loads of other stuff going on. Tell us more. Well, Lewis, firstly, thank you so much for having me on your show and thank you so much for hosting me at this lovely location as well. Pleasure. It's a pleasure to be here. Now, as you said, it's been an interesting story and I moved here a couple of years back from Bombay to London and it's all thanks to my wife who got an opportunity to move to London. So that's what brought me to London. It was an interesting move. The transition, to be honest with you, wasn't really a smooth story, but then, well, no transition when you're moving from a different city to a new city has been a smooth transition for anyone. But the good part about that was you get to learn so many things, you get to learn, you get to meet a lot of people who then teach you a lot of things on the way as well. So it's been a fairly mixed bag. And you were from Bombay? That's right. Bombay now, Bombay old name, Mumbai is a new name. That's a separate debate altogether. Trust me, I don't want to get into that because that can go on for us together. But the good part about this is when you grow up in Bombay, you get to see how that city is evolved over so many decades and over so many years. And it gives you somewhat of a front row seat by sitting there experiencing what the whole India growth story about as well. So as you said, it's an interesting market to come from because that's an emerging market to an extent. And then you see the kind of growth potential that the country has to offer. And you're seeing what a developed market looks like. It gives you a much better view of what that country can achieve over the next few decades. And then you get to meet people who are participating there. It's a fabulous story. But then you decided to come to Brexit facing the UK. Well, that trust me wasn't something that I really planned because when you look at Brexit, sitting in Bombay or even sitting in India at that time, you weren't really expecting Brexit to happen. And even when we came here, we probably came here in March exactly two years back in June. You had Brexit which took place. It was a surprise. Now, without getting into the debate of if Brexit happened or not, the point so far what we've experienced is the industry that I operate in, the industry and people that I work with, there hasn't been a major impact to say so far. Yes, there is a lot of limbo. There are a lot of question marks. There are a lot of gray areas. But you haven't seen a major impact per se so far. So that gives you that little bit of an advantage of not being too worried about it right now. Well, we don't know probably six months hence or even a year hence if it really does go through. And if there is a chaos or there is a crisis, then it's a whole different ball game. But so far, you've been somewhat insulated from that. And I think that that works, that gives you that little bit of support in terms of the market that you're operating in because for the simple reason that you have the emerging market knowledge and you also are in a developed market which is seeing these kind of developments which then can be leveraged in various ways. Absolutely. And it's interesting that despite Brexit and other stuff going on here, it hasn't deterred you from staying over the longer term. That's right because the thing is you want to see what a developed market holds in store. Now, yes, my career or my life predominantly has been an emerging market like India and we're somewhat seen what that market has in store. I haven't had much experience or an exposure of seeing what a developed market can offer as well. So you're somewhere trying to leverage your understandings and operations of an emerging market and see how that can probably fit in in a developed market to a certain extent. But at the same time, you want to understand what a developed market has to offer and then at some point take it back and implement it in an emerging market as well. So these factors are somewhat attracting me and remember the biggest advantage that London has today, and this is what I personally believe after living in this city for two years is that this country and the city offers is very rare. I've had some time in New York I've spent some time in Chicago as well but the diversity in London is very different to what I've seen in other parts of the world and that's what you really come here for. City welcomes you with a red carpet it doesn't really hold you back in any sense the opportunity it offers. It's great. For somebody who's brand new in the city to actually find his feet in a couple of months time is quite commendable. I don't see that happening in any other city. No, you're right, you're right. But you had a front row seat in India on Bloomberg to witness the fantastic great story. Tell me a bit about that. So well, Bloomberg definitely was a great experience. I was an anchor for Bloomberg TV India rather for almost eight to nine years. I hosted the morning show which was basically on capital markets. I hosted the show which revolved earnings basically anything and everything that revolved around equities was something that I was always involved in during my time at Bloomberg TV India. Now, what that did is at a very young age it gave me a somewhat of an understanding as to what corporate India, how it works how equity markets work what are some of the key themes to look at which are some of the key sectors that have huge potential and what more importantly investors look at when they invest in the markets as well. That definitely was really interesting. Now in that, I don't want to get into the equity part of it because I know your listeners are probably more interested in what happens when we talk about corporate India and the potential there. When you're in an overseas country like UK the media and the headlines more or less revolve around comparing India to China. It's a good comparison because the growth rates currently in terms of the macro situation are probably what China was a couple of decades back. So in that sense, yes, you are following that rule of an emerging market growing rapidly seeing a lot of changes. But remember with India the way the positioning of the government the way the whole democracy operates, there are a lot of hurdles in that. So yes, it's good to compare it to China but what I believe is you're still quite a few decades behind in terms of the growth potential. That's right and it will take a much longer time but the good part is it's open to a lot of foreign companies to participate in that. So yes, if you're a local player you will see that growth potential coming in. The stock markets reflect that the way some of the local corporate houses have evolved over the last couple of years reflect that as well. But the good part about this is you're seeing a lot of new companies evolve. I mean, you've seen a big new local company. That's right. It's all in terms of the local tech space in terms of the local companies that are now starting to branch into let's say it can be an NBFC business or it can be mortgage business all traditional houses are probably more catering to manufacturing have now started to branch out because they have seen that potential from the population for different services. To give you an interesting statuette you probably have less than 10% of the Indian population that's investing in financial securities. Now probably let's say 10 or 15 years back the percentage was at one or two. Today there are reports indicating that the percentage has gone up to what, 7 to 8% is what that's gone up to. What's been the driver? The driver's been fact that traditionally you always had Indian investors invest in gold or real estate. Those two asset classes haven't been performing that well. At the same time as there is more financial inclusion there is more participation in these sectors as well. And that's why today the Indian stock markets aren't driven anymore by foreign money. Don't get me wrong it is a huge driver, it is a huge part of the spin in the local stock market but it's the local population now that somewhere is investing. I was just reading a report this morning Lewis where they mentioned that you've seen monthly inflows of only 2 billion dollars on a monthly basis from the retail crowd. So local Indian investors? All the money is getting invested in domestic stocks. Remember you don't have a lot of exposure when it comes to foreign securities in India it's still a very domestic market in terms of investors, in terms of their preference it's all getting invested in stock markets through mutual funds or through portfolio managers or through family offices who are also participating in this. And we're seeing a growing middle class now? Definitely, that's probably the big story that everyone's been talking about. There are multiple reports there is a question mark on that as well but from someone who's lived in Bombay and who's seen how wealth has evolved in just my neighborhood it gives you an understanding that there is massive wealth generation that's taking place in India and especially the four metros somewhere leave that from the front. You've seen Bombay evolve, you've seen Delhi you've seen Bangalore you've seen Chennai as well Kolkata as well to a certain extent all these cities have been evolving the fact that you're seeing new services being offered you're seeing more jobs being created and that's getting more and more people as participants in the growth story and all of that then leads to consumption. Interesting, so you're seeing normal people come from rural areas into cities? It is, that is a trend that is an active trend and remember it is a trend within any emerging market because as the aspirations grow as the opportunities emerge people then migrate to an area where there's probably much more money or there's a better return or there's a better lifestyle more importantly is what they can then achieve. And are you seeing Amazon and Netflix entering India as well now aren't we? That's right, in fact this is an interesting trend Louis you mentioned that because Amazon and Netflix both of them have been in India for some time now but now with as India probably is home to one of the largest population of under 35. It's probably one of the largest country that has the biggest population of the millennial crowd viewer to categorize it. Now this is driving the whole consumption story to a certain extent and that's why you've got Amazon India and Netflix betting heavily on these markets and in fact I remember recently when I was in Bombay as well I was reading an article which mentioned as to how the head of Amazon India was given a much more senior role in the parent company because the company in India was generating a lot of revenues they were very bullish on that story as well. So Amazon India definitely is a big story and a big opportunity for them but Netflix recently has been generating a lot of local content so Louis what do you think? Local films original content because Bollywood stuff and Bollywood are short series which are again short in local languages they're also looking at ways as to what's more trendy locally now remember you have the western influence to a certain extent but there are still the culture, the way the millennials in India are grown up is still very different and what they like, what they prefer is still very different to what you probably see in TV series in the western world. Netflix India is generating that kind of content and they're actually penetrating the local television market quite heavily and when I said the local television I'm talking about the content I don't mean the manufacturers of television are talking about the content that's been produced on television for these news, for these old traditional channels. So that's changing yours and it's interesting to see how foreign brands are creating localized content. In fact McDonald's did that when they walked into India as well they initially came in with products which were very westernized in terms of to give an example chicken nuggets it never got sold really? It never sold in India. Love a chicken nugget. Trust me if you were to offer me that right now I would go up but it never worked in India and the thing is the menu today in India is very different to what you probably see anywhere in the world No Big Macs and... So you probably don't have any beef burgers obviously but at the same time you have a lot of like you probably have a veg patty which is again stuffed with paneer or it has local ingredients which are probably more famous with you know the locals in that sense so the fact that such a large organization has customized this menu or has adapted itself to cater to the local taste is what a lot of big multinationals do when they come to India. So a lot must have failed on that regard like it must be expensive and very time-consuming to you know to want to break into the Indian market? It is but at the same time remember the aspiration it also helps now because and what I mean by that is when it came in was probably 20-25 years back I can't remember the exact date but it was a long time long time back when they entered the Indian market there was recall there was that weight for McDonald's but when we talk about other brands there isn't that kind of weight so they face that hurdle but at the same time today to give another example H&M when they opened up in India there was a long queue for guys to actually go into the store. Now remember these are guys who probably traveled overseas they've shopped at H&M they've bought some clothes they're aware of it so that trend also is changing now where initially let's say Fazzara or an H&M came and they would have to do a lot of marketing they would have to do a lot of advertising it's not the case anymore people are aware they're more in sync with what brands they need to wear what brands they need to shop from because they're well traveled now with the well generation you've got a large population that does multiple trips in a year overseas right mostly coming to Europe and US and you've always had Southeast Asia as a key location because it's close to India it's a much shorter flight but now you see a lot of millennials or the younger population rather opting to somewhere travel to Europe for ski trips which again remember Indians are not known for their sort of ski trips or that kind of inclination towards a cold destination but now with this generation you're seeing much more sort of preference to have a much different experience as compared to a traditional just sit on a beach have a beer experience because they've done that it's not the first time that they're doing it it's probably the 7th or 8th time that they're doing it now and are you seeing then maybe as a result really good quality young Indians opting to live and work abroad now they're into losing their obviously they've lost you momentarily but is that a trend it's been a trend for a long time it's called the brain drain now it's been there for a long time even if you look at what's happening in the valley you've got some of the big companies being led by Indian origin people who've been there for a long time and they've all been educated in India at some point but then they migrated to United States or some other location where they've got that experience to then work with larger brands but that trend somewhat reversed a couple of years back now with the opportunity that India offers you're seeing a lot of people come back because as I said with the mature market yes you've got some advantages both markets have their pros and cons the one advantage of being an emerging market is you're clocking growth rates of over 20% as a norm you don't have to struggle that hard I mean don't get me wrong it's all hard work at the end of it but 20% is somewhere the norm for most of these mid-sized companies I'm not talking about large established brands but the mid-sized companies where you want that kind of participation you aspire to become a larger company you see healthy growth rates of 20-25% as a norm and remember this is a market as we spoke earlier the financial inclusion, banking accounts these are things which have probably just been in the know for the last 5 to 10 years so there's still a large population that needs to come on board for these kind of services and are we seeing salaries increase as well? that has been a trend slowly and steadily you are seeing that trend coming in it's still nowhere compared to what we see as a global norm but always remember the cost of living is very different to what we have in London, New York or Chicago or even the valley for that matter so, salaries are catching up and a lot of larger brands locally now are offering attractive packages because remember as you said if not, there is that inclination to start looking at overseas opportunities if you don't have that same similar pay packet identical but if that sort of opportunity you don't see that then there is that inclination to start looking at overseas opportunities which you did so how have you found the transition? the transition has been interesting for me, moving from media to more of a sort of a financial role I was changing countries, I was switching cities I was switching my industries well so for me initially it was a lot of hard work but then obviously I met people like you who you know, somewhere guided me who held my hand in terms of pointing me towards areas that I can then leverage my expertise because the good part about London or a developed market is it's a much more professional world a much more welcoming world when you have something to offer and that's what I've somewhere understood that I have something to offer in terms of my understanding, in terms of my access to the Indian market and that's where the transition then came in a little bit much smoother as compared to what you probably find somewhere else so yes, initially there were some hurdles but then as you adapt yourself to how the city operates how things function locally you then start fitting in but sometimes it's tough coming into a big city you know, new social networks and new job and everything people are busy they don't have as much time to spend with you it takes a bit of time doesn't it that's right Lewis and you know the thing here is what I realise when I move to London is you have to constantly keep reaching out because there are people who like to have a conversation and because this market is so diverse in terms of the guys who invest or the people who invest in UK they're not originally from London either, they're all from overseas locations I think it's like 55% of people from London living in London aren't originally from London so it means they're fantastically diverse and everyone's open for a conversation and they're like meeting new people so if you make the effort to do that then it's a snowball effect you end up meeting so many different people that's exactly what somewhere worked for me as well in terms of all in my two years out here I've just constantly kept meeting people who've probably grown up in London who are from various locations in Europe some have moved in from the States some have come in from India just like me probably 10 years or even for some cases 30 years before before me so it's good to learn from a lot of these people as to what their experience has been and more importantly they all want to deal somewhere or the other with India because that's a growing market you see they've already participated in China's growth story or they've had that connect with China at some point now they see that same potential in India so they want to learn more about this market and that's where I step in Brilliant. Have you found that it's easier or harder to build a career in London as opposed to Mumbai? That's actually an interesting question because I'm just giving it a little bit of a thought because growing up in Bombay it's easier to somewhere fit in and to get a lot of opportunities in that sense London obviously as we've discussed and I've told you this as well I came in blind I mean I just literally walked in with my first visit ever when I moved to London to actually visit the city so in that sense it was difficult but after having worked for almost a year and six months out here you realize that this is the opportunity that the city offers in Bombay. Don't get me wrong if you're just looking for a job you will get a job in both cities it's about then stepping up and taking it to the next level I feel that because Bombay is an emerging market and if you're a business owner and if you're trying to offer a service altogether you've got that 25% growth if you're an employee because there are so many people already remember the population of Bombay is almost three times that of London in that and because it's still a very unorganized economy in that sense you don't have a lateral growth in terms of when you're an employee but when you take that same picture to London and because it's a much more mature market and things work in a much more organized fashion so if you're looking at a 9 to 5, if you're looking to work professionally you probably have a much larger lateral growth or an opportunity to move in a lateral growth in London as compared to Bombay. Interesting maybe, I think it's different in different sectors I think you're broadly right it's interesting I heard a stat the other day that in India the average tenure in a job is like a year or year and a half because so many jobs being created in India now that people are very happy to move and so it's very dynamic recruitment market in India in London I think the unemployment rate is quite low and there's an awful lot of opportunity so if you tap into the right space there's some fantastic career options for people. I'll give this interesting stat Louis I mean I have this tendency to walk around on high street and you know whenever you're on Oxford or Regent Street have a look at all the shops that you see I mean you don't have to go in but all these shops have a board outside saying we're looking for help if you want to work in retail send us your CV all the shops and I'm not exaggerating out there take Oxford street take Regent Street or take a local high street where you live as well all these shops are looking for people to work now there are two reasons why they're not getting people one obviously because the sector that they're working in or the industry is languishing and no one wants to step in right now that's one the other bit is obviously the talent that's out there doesn't want to do that because you and me remember this was while growing up probably your first job was always to go into a high street retailer and just be a sales guy you ask somebody who's getting out of college right now if they want to do that majority of them are going to say no because they're either working in a start up or they're more inclined towards doing something which is more tech backed as compared to just going into a Zara or any of these high street brands and spending a couple of months there just trying to learn the ropes of how businesses work or just getting your feed it's such fantastic experience when you're young to do that but most of these young people would probably just be buying their clothes online now exactly tough and they don't relate to that sort of experience now but obviously that's what it's all about I mean you evolve into various different sectors so today you probably have that same college person who's graduating learning about social media and how one can market his services there or multiple other career options which are now opened up which one there when we were probably getting out of college a few years back yeah I did I did so many different jobs retail barman cocktail barman warehouse stacker everything is great why is there such a great trade relationship between the UK and India it's been something which has been there for a long time Lewis and you know you're right in spotting that because when I moved for London I didn't know what's in store for me I came into the city for the first time so I didn't know what to expect but when you come here you hear about so many successful businesses that have been run by Indians not not only from India but even from East Africa or Africa for that matter and they've been here for a long time now with India evolving into a large superpower in terms of the emerging market and you know barring the old history that we already have with the British as well the business potential has really evolved massively that's seen a massive amount of jump recently with Brexit coming in there's more inclination to have other trade partners like China and India and with the Indian diaspora and how massive that is in UK there's always been that connect with operating from India so maybe the real estate industry maybe the financial services industry maybe hotels there's always been that inclination where you always seen a lot of Indian money being invested here and I'm not talking about this is 10 years or 15 I'm talking about this being here since 1950 70 or even 80 years in certain cases you got large corporates or large conglomerates that have invested in businesses in manufacturing in the UK as well there's always been that synergy because yes the technology the expertise of running industries in UK has always been a big advantage and that's always been taken back in India and there's been a sharing in terms of either helping you with manpower to run certain industries out here it's been a very mutual agreement in that sense there's been a lot of talk around visas recently since the financial crisis the UK government of almost half the amount of visas they've been issuing have we seen that drop then in engines being able to come here that's been the case but there are two other reasons as well now remember one of the biggest attractions for Indians to come to London and I'm talking more from the visa point of view has always been student visas now the two top attractions have always been United States and UK in terms of student visas with what Brexit has done in the last couple of years you've seen that trend somewhat go down a little bit because remember any student who comes down here for studying has aspirations to then get into the job market as well what Brexit has done is it's somewhere scared a lot of these students who are then looking at other opportunities so Canada here have been the big beneficiaries of this now the other bit obviously is a skilled worker who wants to come here maybe in the IT industry maybe in the NHS or doctors wherever that has still had a lot of demand but obviously with the way you know you've seen the government headlines on this it's been somewhat of a big debate even in the political circles is what I gather from my limited knowledge out here so the UK need to do a bit more in trying to attract these highly talented Indians to come work here because we will have and we do have skill shortages in these key areas so I really hope that they do more marketing in India and Aniyan the point here is not only about trying to get skilled workers to actually work in let's say the NHS or any of these large organisations it's also about what they can then build here to give you an example I mean in the early you have majority of the unicorns at some point being started by Indian founders or they have an Indian founder as part of it now if that's where the world is evolving into or that's what we're seeing you want not only the high skilled workers who want to come here and then you know work in the organisation but you also want to attract you know the brain in terms of who can you want to get that crowd in along with the workers as well and it's like if you scare one group of people you're going to scare the other group as well and I think that's where the big challenge is how do you keep a balance I mean in the UK and London we've really created a good environment for Indians to want to come work here build a life you know there's a lot of Indians here I'm not sure what the stats are but so hopefully that will continue Well definitely in fact even today you're seeing more and more people now starting to opt to just have a quick weekend or a couple of days in London a lot of you know who I interact with from Bombay what we sense is London is as busy and as vibrant as Bombay is I mean I know you haven't visited Bombay yet it's on your tour list when you go there you'll see it's as vibrant a city as what we have in London out here so a lot of people somewhere relate to London in a very positive way and that's why you see a lot of Indians in the summer I hate the cold as well you must have a busy house then all your friends coming visit they love to stay they love to come over they love to stay with us in that sense and it is something that we encourage as well because you know now that we're in London we like to have our friends over we like to invite them and we take them around in London obviously shopping is a big criteria shopping is a big agenda Is stuff cheaper here? I wouldn't know trust me I'm not a big shop I wouldn't know the pricing bit it's not about the cheaper bit it's just about more options you have it's a variety that you get in Oxford Street or Regent Street for that matter and the options that you open up here are much more as compared to what you find anywhere else in at least in India Do you feel that the economy is going to open up even more over the next 5-10 years It will and Louis as we've been discussing you've got to be patient when it comes to India I say this to everybody that looks at the India market from the investing point of view is that with India you've got to work you take 3 steps forward and 2 backward and that's how you move forward because it's one of the largest democracies that you have in the world today and it's not going to be straightforward remember there are a lot of changes that are happening in the culture you know a lot of things that the way they function traditionally are changing now with the younger generation getting more and more involved politics, government oriented jobs or even corporate sectors so that's changing and it's evolving and you've got to be patient for that change to somewhere take place so I meet a lot of people who've burned their hands in India when they invested probably in 2008 or even during the crisis but if you look at it now you need to take a fresh look because there are new companies that have come into the market there are new business houses that have now become serious players in their respective industries so if you're somebody who's looking to then look at that kind of space it has an opportunity for you but still local companies are dominating local companies are dominating because I mean with any emerging market you have that support and you have that hand holding from the government right now to more promote the local companies but remember as the aspirations grow of people as they realize that a lot of people are opting to travel abroad for example as we said for shopping you will see that you will see the government realize that they need to somewhere tap into and bring these brands locally so that the money then starts staying locally as well rather than that money then going out for shopping or just for travel and tourism is fine but they want that consumption demand to stay more local rather than international we're seeing international brands set up joint ventures to get local partners to understand the market is that the best way for them to get in yes and we've seen plenty of these partnerships in the last 10 years or so is what I would say you've got big high street brands, you've got big mega brands both I mean from US UK who signed up with local partners and they're doing test runs in certain tier 2 cities they're operating tier 1 cities as well they're doing their pilot projects right now but some brands have already given examples Zara and H&M have already become more they've spread their wings in various cities but now you're seeing other players are the local brands who are probably restricted let's say a traditional UK brand like Mulberry for example is looking at Asia as well they probably have India on their list so it's these brands which are not that larger global presence now they're starting to look at India and China as key markets I went to London Tech Week recently loads of entrepreneurs and London is a really attractive place for tech at the moment and a lot of foreign tech entrepreneurs are coming any advice on like settling in and moving from an emerging market into somewhere like this to be fair Lewis the thing is I was part of London Tech Week as well I managed to attend a few events now when you go there you see the aspirations of the entrepreneurs who've come in it's really inspiring to see what they've created it's really inspiring to see what they want to do what they want to build here as well so the good part for them is to always be aware of what you want to build stay in that sort of circle because trust me out here you've got private equity firms not only from UK you've got investors from all over the world and if you have a product which is good if you have a product which is trying to do which is trying to build something you have a lot of investors participating there and that's the only advice for these entrepreneurs because is it easier to raise money here than in Mumbai Mumbai get the technology right well it's I would say it's same because it really depends on which industry you are in because I've got somebody who's just raised a fund to invest in Indian startups in UK it's basically in the UK investing in India and the reason they're doing this is because there are a lot of firms that want to participate in the India growth story but it really depends which sector so if you're doing let's say for something on payments or if you're a fintech firm it probably would make sense to have more operations in UK because the financial inclusion is still limited when it comes to India but obviously the financial inclusion and the way you have payment services and what's being offered in London has a much bigger opportunity but at the same time if you're doing something more consumer related you probably want to be in India because that's where you have massive consumption demand which is lying there so it depends which startup you're in and which industry you're trading in but the startup as I moved just over to the startup seen in India it is a mature well developed ecosystem where you have a good business idea let's say it's in retail you need to raise some capital I won't say it's mature but it's seeing a lot of attention not only from local investors you already have a few homegrown private equity firms VCs that have already evolved over the last 5-10 years but at the same time now you've got a lot of foreign firms who are setting up in India as well because they want to participate in the startup story so it's on a mature market as yet it has a lot of potential it has a lot of people still building interesting products that are being somewhat looked at not only local firms but even VCs and private equity firms from overseas interesting and then London are trying to all they can to attract these people here that's right I mean the thing is you've got ideas and you've got products and you've got a big market that's sitting in India but obviously from an investment point of view you have to look at US or UK where you can then get the money to get you off the ground or you can get that little bit of marketing or how the expansion mode need that sort of push in terms of investors that's when you start looking overseas because yes the local participants will be there but if you really want that global presence or you want that global push you have to get some investors from overseas on board interesting thank you very much really interesting conversation good luck with all of your stuff and I'm sure we'll speak again soon thank you so much Louis for having me thank you hey folks thanks for listening don't forget to subscribe in all the usual places