 Welcome back. It's time for our very first hot topic and I want to take a look at Buhari's approval or the approval he's seeking to pay judgment debts. And President Muhammad Buhari, he wrote to the National Assembly seeking approval for the payment of judgment debts owed by the federal government to the tune of five hundred and sixty six point seven million dollars ninety eight point five million pounds and two hundred and twenty six point two million nara five days before the end of his administration. The monies were owed through the issuance of promissory notes. That's exactly what I want to take a look at this morning as a very first hot topic and we have been joined by Mr. Bola or Lord Jede. He is a public policy analyst. Good morning to you, Mr. All right, so tell us how you what came to your mind when you saw this this topic this issue again in the news. Well, what came to my mind because he says judgment debt was a book written by Ngozi Okonjeweala called fighting corruption is dangerous. On page ninety nine of that book with ninety nine into a hundred she had a section dedicated to judgment debt. So when I saw judgment debt to be paid my mind went straight to that book and that section dedicated to judgment. So I picked a copy of the book to refresh in my mind about some of the scams that have been associated with judgment debt in Nigeria over the years. Now, here is not to say I'm not admitting that I have information about this particular judgment debt that the president wants to pay. But I think it is still instructive to speak generally to issues of judgment debt. There's something called judgment debt scam and it has been around forever. So Ngozi Okonjeweala Ngozi in that her book spoke about our experience. He said as of 2006 judgment debt was about 62 million dollars. He said by the time it was 2012 it was over 500 million dollars. Why did we keep accumulating judgment debt? Number one, agencies of government enter into agreements with private sector on all sort of things and then the default. The default either because they deliberately defaulted or the default out of negligence. So when this happens of course the private partner will take them or it might even be another government will take them to court. They'll get a judgment debt and then behind the scene everybody will go and partake in the sharing of that judgment debt. Another one is a case of, I don't know if you remember Pianite. In certain instances what happens is that government will refuse to diligently or will neglect negligently not pursue a case that is in court with the level of responsibility that is expected. When you don't pursue those cases properly judgment will be issued against the government and judgment debt will be incurred. So Nigeria, like in the case of Pianite, we're still in court. We've not said to that matter as we speak. That is the second case. A third scenario is when agreements are improperly drafted so that it becomes very difficult for the government to be able to comply. So government went into default and then the other partner will go to court and go and get the judgment. So it has become a scam that both the people on the government side and the other party into with government is centred into agreement. They agree on what is to be done. They mess up the case. Judgment is issued against the government. Government pays the money and then the people who are involved in the scam go behind and share the loot. That is a scam that I've been going on. I'm not saying like I started that this particular, I'm not saying this case has not been vetted for all those corruption issues that are related. Then the other part for me is that it is happening a few days to the exit of the administration. What normally happens towards the tail end of an administration is that everybody wants the administration to settle their own case before the administration leaves because whatever they do not settle before they go is a begin again. The next government will tax that process all over again. He wants to review. He wants to know what has happened before it will go ahead. This is what is driving some of the late hour contracts that we saw. Contracts have been awarded. It is agreed that government is a continuum. We must know that. But we must also now know that nobody wants his own case to be carried over to the next government. So there's a lot of pressure on the government. Sign my own paper. Sign my own paper before you go. Sign my own paper before you go. And these judgment debts might not be different. It appears to me like one of those cases of people pressing for their own cases to be resolved before government leaves the saddle in a couple of days. Well, I'm just wondering why, like you mentioned, why the accumulation of these debts over the years? Why were they not settled at the time that they were incurred and all that? Is there no way to plot these loopholes to make sure that these things don't happen? Because you've also alluded to the fact that it is also possible that the people, the parties involved, go behind and take the spoils of whatever case. So is there no way, no policy that can be put in place to make sure things like this never happen because they do something, they sabotage it themselves, go behind and get the spoils? Can something not be done to make sure it never happens? Yes, there are things that can be done. Number one is to ensure that anybody on the side of the government that allows the government to run into these judgment debts, because one leads to judgment debt is default situation. So how did we arrive at the default situation? Is it by virtue of very poor drafting? If somebody has done very poor drafting, putting the government in a position in which you will not be able to meet obligation, there must be punishment, there must be consequences for such level of irresponsibility, where it is a case of lack of diligence in prosecuting the case. So someone has taken the government to court on a default issue and government did not behave very well in the course of defending itself in that court. When lawyers are supposed to appear, they did not show up. The things they're supposed to do, they did not do it. Whoever allowed that to happen must be brought to books. It must be heard to account at whatever level that happens, even if it was at the minister's level. When we begin to deal with issues of impunity, we will begin to see some of the results. The other part is that we cannot allow, continue to allow a situation in which government debts are left on the table forever. What happens is when there is a debt and we do not pursue the payment, those debts will continue to pile up interest. So the amount that was there initially, interest will be computed on it and it starts to get bigger and bigger for the period during which we refuse to make the payment. In the particular case for which approval is being sought anyway, it appears as if we have even already issued promissory notes in the past, which means it has been committed. We have told the beneficiaries of this document that, look, government has accepted this obligation. We promised to pay you. So it is now becoming an issue of redeeming the promissory notes that you have already issued to those people. So it's a play of vanilla expansion. But we must understand how some of these debts are accumulated and the scam that has been built over the years around judgment debts. Talking about the scams that have been built over the years around judgment debt raises the concern about the transparency because some of them have been paid. The transparency or otherwise in the disbursement of this debt. After today, the Senate will not be sitting again until the next administration. Now, in this same month of May, the Office of the Attorney General and Minister of Justice, Abu Bakr Malami, has been indicted in the disbursement of 10.4 billion narrow judgment debt settlement to beneficiaries. You want to comment on that? Well, these are the issues that I believe we, as a nation, we ought to be getting to the bottom of it. But we don't ever get to the bottom of this money. They just lie there. For example, one of the things in the, you know, around town now is the issue of the Acucha CCTV project. There is no CCTV on ground in Acucha. A sum of $460 million was said to have been borrowed from that platform. Investigation about the Acucha CCTV project. There was an investigation in 2016, 2016 until now. It's about seven years. The question is, where was the outcome of that investigation? Where will be the outcome of the current $10 million payment of the money that you spoke about? Even when it is investigated, what will be the outcome? The Senate indicted him. The Senate indicted him on that this very month of May. I will point out the Senate cannot do it. After it has indicted him. And let me also tell you, we also have to be careful about some of the National Assembly investigations. Because if you look through history, a lot of those investigations do not produce any results that is of benefit to the city. Where is the outcome of the NBDC investigation by the National Assembly? Of your mic. Where is the outcome of the various gas investigation by the National Assembly? Oh, if you know the NNPC, the Norah Mitch money, we have some money in you. House of Rep will do their own. Senate will do their own. Ask yourselves, what has been the implication of all those investigations? Oh, somebody has imported that fuel into Nigeria. We will do the investigation. It has been investigated. Where is the result of the investigation? See, the problem we must focus on as far as fighting corruption is concerned in this country, under the next administration, will be how much we can prevent. We must prevent, let there be more emphasis on prevention of these things. Because once this money goes out, all these investigations, most of the time, I won't be surprised if some of the organizations or representatives of the government are also complicit in some of this investigation, which may be why we don't ever see the result of some of this. How many people have been here by virtue of this investigation? How much reform have we gotten by virtue of this investigation? Okay. Well, let me just take you back a little bit more. There's something you mentioned about the fact that people who are part of this deal, this calm of judgment that should be brought to book and punished. Now, this punishment, I'd like to ask, will it need legislation? Because agreements are entered into by an entity called government. And at what point will the individual be roped in so that he can get the punishment? Will we have to pay the judgment that and common prosecutor must an individual under what guise do we need legislation before we can be able to do this? Or how do you propose that the person involved or persons involved will be brought to book and punished for being careless as it were? I think the laws are there. Our problem is hardly ever the absence of the legal framework to prosecute or to bring people to account for the responsibility that has been betrothed upon them by the government. Rather, the problem has been number one, the lack of the political will to see these processes through. And then also the fact that a lot of the people who are supposed to make that process happen gets compromised. So when there is a lot of money on the table, rather than bring people to justice, what tends to happen is that you distribute and share it out to all the concerned people and everybody is happy. Nobody speaks to those matters any longer. So I don't think it's a matter of the prosecution, of the laws, rather. I think it's a matter of the political will to enforce the law and to bring people to justice. And it will change once it changes at the level of leadership. If I am the minister, for example, and you know that I will not tolerate a case of a poorly drafted legal document, or that you know that even I will request a higher level of responsibility from you as far as the drafting of the legal document is concerned, you will sit up. It's as simple as in offices where people come to the government house and they come at 9 o'clock at 10 o'clock. You suddenly see a governor or a minister who is at his desk by 7.30. Let me tell you what we have. He doesn't require any law or passing any member. The fact that the minister will not tolerate any nonsense by being at his own desk by 7.30, you'll be shocked that in one week, nobody who arrived at that office had a date. Nobody would dare to do it. So the political will at leadership level to set the tone and let it be known clearly that I will not tolerate that under this merit. That is how to set a part of what we need to do to set it right. So I put it on the dust type of leadership. Point blank. How does this tally against the performance of the Justice Department of this administration? Point blank. It doesn't sound good. We also don't want us to, I don't want this issue to get lost on the altar of, oh, it is about this administration. Don't forget that the reference book that I spoke about was authored by Ngozi Okojiwela. It served a passenger regime and Jonathan regime. And even in those regimes, the judgment has been on. So the problem we have is systemic and does not even belong to an administration. So it is incumbent on the incoming government to say that under my own virtue, I will not allow this thing that I started right from decades ago to continue. That is the way I look at this matter. It is a systemic problem, like many of our problem. A lot of people are celebrating, oh, worry is living in today. Who told you that when boy release, that that is the end of the problem. Most of the problem that you are seeing right there are systemic and the approach to solving them does not rest on the fact that an administration has ended because the system is still the same system. The same Ministry of Justice that has ended is still here today and will be there tomorrow as well. Well, five days to go and the administration is seeking this humongous amount in the name of judgment deaths. Judgment deaths. I wonder what will be on the handover notes that they are going to give to the next administration because everything money that this administration wants to finish it and everything else will be left for the next government to come and take charge. Is it so difficult finally now? Is it so difficult for things like this to be carried to the next administration? Are there more bureaucratic bottlenecks if it comes to finances that these things can't wait four more days or five more days to be passed on to the table of the next administration? Okay. The next I will present this back to you if I'm interested. First, let me start by saying that the current administration will make a counter argument and say that things that it considered much more important, mega issues of subsidy, mega issues like population sensors that I have handed it over. I have said subsidy or let the next government take it on and conclude it. Population sensors, let the next government take it on. I have passed on those. I do not consider the payment of judgment debt as something that I need to pass on. That could be an argument. Another argument is the government is a continuum. I am still the president until May 29 and therefore I will continue to do all of these things. The third part is to say, ask you as an individual, if you have been pursuing a contract with this government and it is about to leave on Monday, will you rather decide your contract paper or you prefer that it will be deferred to the next administration? These are some of the complexities of the situation. For everybody that have asked the third question, the answer would be, no, no, no, no. I would rather decide my paper now than wait till the next one. But we need, that is because a lot of things in our governance still rest on individuals and not, you see, where we don't have the strong system. So getting things done, we say it has to be by virtue of a need of ordinarily, it shouldn't be a bother if we have a system that works, but the system doesn't work. Everybody wants the individual to help them solve their problem. It goes on the way to how we believe that it is somebody from my village when he occupies a post is when I will get the roads to my place fixed. But you don't be so. Thank you so much for your time. We do not have enough time. There are many questions to be asked about this very issue, but thank you so much for the time that we've been able to have with you to discuss this very matter. Thank you very much. Mr. Balao on Lodger Day has joined us to take a look at the approval that President Mohammad Ibrahim's administration is seeking for the payment of judgment debts. That was our very first hot topic. We'll continue now to take our second hot topic after this short break. Stay with us.