 There we go. Thought I was the only one. I thought, did I get my weeks wrong again? I think something has changed because that's the operator working group one and normally we just have the regular meeting here. But I think it might have gone, yes. I think we have the same confusion that I had when I was expecting to be on the other meeting. Oh, am I supposed to be in it? Did I click on the wrong Zoom link? No, they did not click on the wrong Zoom link, this week they put in, I think Amy brought them up with the calendar and right now we have the sick at delivery operator working group meeting. And not the regular sick at delivery meeting. There we go. It's now next week. I might even be there reasons for doing this. And that's why there's nobody here because as we talked about last week, we are a couple of weeks ago. Yeah, because we had one of those weird months where there were like second and fourth and we had a weird month where we had five Wednesdays. Ah, okay. That's why this, that's what, but your background looks really nice. Are you on vacation or is this your house? No, I am super, super, super lucky. I do not take this for granted at all but I live more full-time in California but I have a second home in central Oregon. So I'm about 20 minutes south of Bend, Oregon, in central Oregon and so I am at my home but it's in the woods and yeah, I'm super lucky. Yeah, it looks really nice. What do you guys think that was actually behind you? Yeah, I'm in this really funky room. The house was built 40 years ago but they built this greenhouse and it's part of the house but it's a greenhouse which is why you see stucco behind me so it looks like the outside of a house and what you're seeing is the reflection from these windows of what I'm looking at out here. So I'm looking out the greenhouse into the woods and you're seeing the reflection in the window back there so yeah, it's kind of a funky room but it's really cool. Yeah, so that's the good thing right now as long as we have all Wi-Fi we can work pretty much forever there. Yeah, my husband and I will spend more time up here when he retires, he works in aerospace and he works on secure programs and so he can't work remotely. And so normally I travel a lot and so I come here on the weekends and between and stuff. I have been here for like three months out of the last five months because I can and so I spend like three weeks up here and then I go back to California for three weeks and it's just a nice change of scenery. Like I said, I feel very blessed and very lucky so yeah. Yeah, I can see that. I'm most about in the process of choosing, maybe moving to a different house because I don't need more space for office work. So my office is actually quite a small here. That was just the virtual background but yeah. Okay. This is much smaller and I was looking for a big one. I was like the idea one has actually all these lakes right pretty close to where I live here. And where do you live? And it's not Australia. So it is called between South Spur and Vienna but I can have the mountains and the lake pretty much where next or pretty close there and the last you go to the office the less it matters because even if I'm trying to the office say twice or three times a week it's just a one hour drive maximum which for US type of commute is not that bad but it's not a lot of work for us to do. It is not ideal but totally doable if you wanted to do it. So things are definitely mixing up here. Yeah, cool. All right, well that explains why there's only you and I here is because we're off by week and the group hasn't been doing anything. Which is still interesting because today the delivery channel Chris Campbell was actually asking for the Zoom password. It's been weird with me recently where all of a sudden it requires me to admit people into my meetings and I just checked my settings this morning and that's not set. So I have no idea what Zoom is up to these days. Yeah, so yeah. Yeah, we had people showing up in meetings and some really weird things going on. Yeah, yeah. But as I have you here two quick updates that was interesting for you. I went through the entire document on operators again. I just replied to some notes I was expecting some already over. I'm going to remove the related technology section. I think it's just causing too much confusion and quite frankly as we discussed the last time it's not really what the initial charter was about. The rest of the doc I think can be cleaned up easily also when we cut down on target audiences. That's one interesting question in there and I think this is going to be a very interesting discussion. Should we be using operators to control non Kubernetes resources? I think some people will have opinions on this. I personally struggling a bit using something like a higher level abstraction like Kubernetes to control my underlying Amazon cloud resources. I like the idea behind it but I don't see it as an application runtime really but that's might be interesting to discuss but I want to include this because one of the thing about monitoring in there was there's a reconciliation loop which doesn't exist if you control resources outside of Kubernetes unless you implemented yourself. I'm sorry say that again. So the monitoring point in there was obviously like there's not the monitoring part of the operators on traditional monitoring it's the reconciled loop that tells you whether something has changed. Right. And this doesn't exist if I monitor something outside of Kubernetes. So if I have my EC2 resources there is no reconciled loop because it's not part of what the standard platform capabilities provided with. So maybe my definition of operator is a little skewed here but to me an operator is a CRD plus the controller which is the reconciliation loop. Yes but in this case it cannot reconcile because the resources it should reconcile or suddenly live somewhere else like with ACK. But why? Yeah exactly like ACK. But you could extend them yeah. Yeah but you could extend ACK in a way that it isn't. Yeah I mean the controller the reconciled loop can issue API calls to ACK to do remediation when it needs to. I mean if you think about a cluster API I would consider that those operators or maybe I don't know if they're packaged officially. But I would consider those operators and they're controlling things like VMs and AWS EC2 machines and Azure compute machines. So that to me is an example of an operator that is already controlling things that are not Kubernetes objects. Yeah I think that might be one of the discussions whether we want to include them or non-include them because it changes kind of what Kubernetes really is. Is it an application runtime or is it the platform to build automation? And you can agree it's kind of both. Yeah. You're not using it what it's supposed to be used but can't be used for. See this is where maybe you and I have a slightly different opinion because I am a big fan of walking around and saying I bet you thought that Kubernetes was about scheduling containers. And then I go on to say that was just use case one. And I view Kubernetes very much as an automation, cloud native, reconciliation based platform for building platforms. And so I really think of the application that container scheduling is only use case one. Which I think is fine. But that's interesting discussion in there. I think depending on how we define it because that's where it changes. I'm not saying we can't do it. I was just struggling doing it on the same cluster. So for me just the example of like having an EKS cluster that is controlling its own underlying EC2 infrastructure feels kind of weird to me. Because the abstraction is going in the wrong in the wrong direction than there. Because you're getting more to a lower level of abstraction than to higher one. But overall it doesn't mean that it can't do it. You can use another cluster to control the other infrastructure. So that would work. Might actually be a fun experiment to just use to your point to have a Kubernetes cluster that's not really built for container scheduling. But that just consists of the API server and it's just a pass building platform kind of cluster. It can't even schedule. Well, it has to schedule some containers because it has to schedule the controllers but beyond the controllers it wouldn't really allow to run any other workloads. Yeah. I mean, that's quite possible. So it's all the things that you need. It's not gonna run application workloads, quote unquote. It's gonna run all of these other workloads. There's still workloads but it's a different type of application. Yeah. That might be a nice experiment. Maybe try on Twitter whether anybody ever built this before. I think somebody might have done it. Yeah. But yeah, that's the doc cleanup. I reached out to the telecom user group but I didn't hear back from them yet. I'm trying to dial into the next meeting that don't seem to be very active on Slack. So I might also ping them on their mailing list. And what's the other update there and the last good news is that we as the SIC we usually also submit the top to KubeCon which normally gets accepted because the SIC get a talk. And the demo application will be part of that talk. So I think it's going to be way more like for collaborative effort what we get in there. It's more like solving application delivery problems in Kubernetes by example. More or less tell us your problems. This is how you can solve them. And also help like with this demo application development. So I think in the next meeting our crowdsource does a bit more say, okay, this is the talk. Like obviously Harry and I we have submitted it because the SIC chairs are submitting it. What should we put in there? Because everybody's complaining about the landscape. So I think it was very easy to do to get the talks of everybody's complaining about the landscape. Let's just turn it around. I'm a user, I have a problem. This is how I solve it. Yeah, I like that. And so that talk was accepted then. It was accepted, yeah. And is the title and abstract the submission available in our repository or you're just gonna bring it up next week. I'll bring it up next week. Okay. That's a good point. You just have to, you know, how do things happen? Do we have deadlines on Sunday? Oh, absolutely. Grab something out. Absolutely. I think we've all been there. Yeah, we have it. I'll bring it up the next time and say, well, it's still that we're going to present it there, but let's talk about interesting use cases and what we pack into this talk to get some engagement. Yeah. I also looked at the demo applications that exist. I looked at the tips to show you. And obviously you, one of the reasons you have to have a stock shop as well. Interestingly, nobody cares about databases in the cloud native space. Yeah. I think the hipster shop does not have a database. Yeah. I think that this is, this is out of convenience. I mean, people are like, Oh, well, I'm just going to kind of ignore the stateful stuff. So. And so that's, maybe it's also talk with them. Well, shouldn't you have a database in there? And if you have a database in there, which is it going to be? Schema full schema less databases make it much more interesting for blue green diplomas. Yeah. I was just interested in whether I had a look at it today and say, okay, we could reuse it. Yeah, obviously databases are missing. Yeah. And that's the number one problem when I talk to customers that I get, totally get the cloud native stuff. How do I do a deal with my relational databases? Right, exactly. And by the way, if you upgraded how I cannot blue green deploy, how do I tell my environment, I kind of need a blue green deploy. I cannot roll back. So there's a lot in this space that, Yep. People should be looking at that. But there was a great talk and I actually get her to speak again on these topics. And I think one of them, there's also a project out there for database upgrades that I just recently learned about. That's so interesting. Okay. But I think nobody's going to show up here, which I think is, yeah, I think it's making the point that getting everything together in one meeting makes even more sense. Yes, it does. So I don't actually want to keep you any longer. Thank you. Okay. I see you'll be very busy as well. But still used the opportunity to catch up a bit. That was good. It was good to catch up. Okay. Thanks. Bye. Bye.