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Fine. You're known as Shadow and the smash-out show gladiators. Yes. I was a massive fan of it myself. You were sacked from it over the last few years you were in a prison but now today you want to tell things from your side and just basically just tell your own story which is what these podcasts are all about. First and foremost how are you? Yeah I'm good. How are you feeling today? Getting used to being out. It's been about a month and a half now but getting used to it. Yeah good. Before we get into it I'd like to go back to the start of my guests. Get a bit of understanding about you. Where you grew up? How it all began? I grew up actually in New York. My mother lived in New York. I went there and it was about 14 high school there. Junior college. Then I came back to England. I was playing American football so I was weight training so when I came back I started to compete in bodybuilding shows and teenage shows. And worked my way up really until I became I just about to get my professional card and I got the job as a gladiator. What was school like in America? Oh it was a bit wild. Was it? Yeah. Whereabouts in New York? In the Bronx. I lived in the Bronx. 167. The Grand Concourse. Yeah I went to school in the end of the train ride. It was like 205 or something. Yeah DeWitt Clinton. It was a boy school. Yeah. How was that being in an old boy school? Yeah it was a bit weird. I mean there was a girl school just down the road called Science. Never did get to pop around there but yeah that was a bit weird. Especially coming from London to go to a boy school in America. Yeah. So you wanted to be on American football and NFL? I did try for the NFL. I did try as a free agent. I didn't go to college to get picked as a on the draft or anything so it would have been as a free agent. I remember going out to Texas stadium. Took me two days to drive there from LA and for the trials in the stadium for free agents. People that don't come from college just come from the street. And I had to run a few drills. I remember the coach turned around to the other coach and said he's hipster too stiff and he has no hand coordination. Next being there all day took me two days to drive there and that's all that's all I got out of it. Just ruthless. Yeah ruthless yeah yeah. So much money involved in the NFL. I was wondering how you played sports on the planet. Did that deflate you as a young boy? No no I ended up coming back to Europe. I played six months in France, in Nice, Sweden, Stockholm, Frankfurt in Germany, played in American football as a player coach. And then when they started the league over here I was too old for the league. I think it was under 25 or something like that. I got back into the bodybuilding. I was about to get my professional card and I applied for the job as a gladiator and went from there really. What was it like applying for gladiators because I'm not sure no doubt about it. I used to watch the American program on a Friday night. So you were already known to what it was about? Yeah it's an American concept. So I used to be on like two three o'clock in the morning on a Friday. I used to watch it and they said they were looking for people to start a new program. So I just applied for it and went out to an army barracks in Woolwich I think it was. So it's always you I remember Shado, Jet, she was fucking beautiful and Wolf was the kind of three names. I used to love it Saturday night it was I think a lot of it was on and gladiators it was a lot of Saturday night I used to love blind dating. Just the A sitting over your mum and dad watching shit tv but gladiators was always the one because it was exciting. The beautiful girls as well. The girls were fucking stunning. Muscly men strong. So just thinking I want to compete in that and what was it going through? What was it like? What was it like actually did you have to pass any tests to become a gladiator? Like I said we went out to an army barracks in Woolwich went through a number of exercises in the gym outside the gym with the PT instructors there and that's how they picked us really. How many people? Well there was thousands of people that applied for the job throughout the country but the day I went there I think there was about 15 of us 15 guys 15 girls then they picked from there. How many eventually got packed? Six guys and six girls. Did you know how big the show was going to be because it was like 15 million, 20 million. I don't even think LWT knew how big the show was going to be. In the first year we were getting like 500 pound a show in the second years when it blew up and they realized how big the show was going to be but yeah I don't think they even realized how big it was going to be. Was that all you were getting paid 500 pound a show? Yeah yeah whereas like the American gladiators they get they get repeat fees from every state that shows it they get merchandise rights we didn't get no merchandise rights we didn't get no repeat fees we just got a flat wage per show and obviously you do personal appearances and stuff like during the month you could earn two, three grand a month opening shops doing signings that type of thing but no we didn't get no merchandise rights no repeat fees. It was fucking slavery though you think yeah yeah compared to like compared to the Americans and we took that concept from the Americans and totally blew it up you know that they I think they did their thing in front of a thousand people in front of the cardboard coyote whereas we got it in the arena because I'm sure they used to build their little figures now the wrestlers and stuff so yeah yeah yeah there's no merchandise no yeah at that probably at that time though it's like actors are people writing books they give musicians they all get a very small percentage it's the big wigs who make all the money but did you ever complain when you were getting 500 pound a show became so popular? No not in the first year obviously not you know so many people trying out for the show and if you didn't like the contract then you didn't sign it and there's a number of people that were waiting for the job in the second year they moved it up to 750 a show still you know at the end of the day it was nothing compared to the American show what the Americans get rather and don't forget they did their thing in front of a thousand people in a arena look like a cardboard cutout whereas ours was in the NEC 10,000 plus twice a day you know it was big numbers you were doing two shows a day yeah about a 14 hour day did that ever make you question it though thinking shit man i should be getting more are we just happy to be part of uh like i said no one made any waves um if you didn't like the contract you didn't sign it you know simple as that really what was the first show like the first show the first season no it was good good it was exciting who was it with the male and the females was a everybody having a good time or was it just okay that uh everyone was having a good time i mean you know we were brought together for two weeks to film in Birmingham stayed at the NEC no it was good it's good how much training when you're doing for that because everybody was having a great shit you get you get uh two weeks to practice on the new operators that come out new games that come out um contestants only get a week before they have to start filming but we get we're there for two weeks prior to them coming uh so you got time to get used to the games and stuff like that how many different games was that uh wow how many different games were there the sky trap the drill the pyramid uh the big metal balls i remember they were called yeah um gauntlet powerball uh hang tough that was that looked hard one when they're swinging when they're swinging yeah and the 50 rings i was watching that one yeah yeah yeah it's quite a few games what was your specialty what games i was known for the drill which is the only one-on-one game where they fight with the sticks yeah yeah just knock people off yeah basically yeah did you ever get put off yourself uh gary mason he stepped across and pushed me off one time but that's that's about the only time i came off there did you get the victory for that uh no there was a Scottish guy who was a referee that's it that's it gladiators are you ready where it was that fucking bad bastard yeah yeah yeah yeah that action was good for it yeah absolutely because it was like the guy um michael buffer um it says let's get ready to rumble the gladiators was known for that as well gladiators are you ready yeah was it the seems you ever got a defeat was that a lesson that's on that game show did you take it personal me i've never been defeated in three years no except for when gary mason pushed me off but no i've never been defeated so you're not doing any other ones was you just yeah i did did hang tough uh did the gauntlet did powerball but no was it those those are all team games where you play with more than one person so the duals the only one where it's one-on-one but the rest of the games they're uh you know the team efforts so long did you do was it three seasons yeah the first three seasons yeah what was the second season league for you was a big improvement uh more fame more attention yeah we didn't realize like i said we didn't realize in the first year how big the show didn't become um i remember going to test goes or something like one one day my wife went and uh being totally mobbed you know then realizing wow you know we are famous like you know i mean oh you're getting used to this fame thing yeah yeah it's not like now as everybody's got social media and you can be tiktok famous and instagram famous then if you are famous you are famous because it was everybody only had a tv yeah to get the information and gladiators the number one show yeah i was at 15 million 20 million people watched on a saturday night which is phenomenal numbers yeah it was bigger than blind date bigger than lol's house party yeah it was a big show on a saturday night folks it brings back a lot of memories you mentioned in lol's house party and stuff yeah so season two season three life going great it was just to be married then it's where and training hard on a hot show yeah it was life perfect yeah then then uh i was accused of doing a line of cocaine in uh in a night club i used to go well i used to go to piano bar in the kings road um they said head on the cover reporter took photos of me doing this or doing that the only pictures they had was my Jeep outside this actual restaurant where i used to go but um on the basis of that story lwt had to let me go because it's because now that you know the program was targeted towards kids between five and fifteen even though we're a bit higher but i suppose they kind of denotes why the place ready to let me go did someone step yen well they i said that they they reckon they had an undercover reporter that said i did the line of cocaine inside this restaurant uh they didn't have no photographs they all had was my Jeep outside the restaurant but you know at end of the day if i don't know you i'm not doing the line of code you know and you know say it was all purely fabricated the story and um on the basis of that lwt had to let me go on the basis of someone writing an article yes but this is me being accused of doing doing drugs accusations there's horrible things in newspapers always say this kill people destroy lives whether you're taking gear or whatever listen we get it we're not doing it in front of kids you're not nobody's seen you doing it that's the if somebody blatant you caught you like nowadays people have got their cameras you're caught listen you're fucked you can break your hands up so was that a hard one was that a bitter pill to swallow because there was no evidence of you taking any gear no no it's just a story did you get a heads up when the story was breaking uh no i just got a phone call on a sunday morning someone finding out saying jeff if you've seen the news of the world if you've seen the papers you know that's that and that's how it was on a regular basis you know people following me up and saying jeff you're in the papers again today no jeff if you've seen the paper what is it now you know did you have any negative press before before the the coke one no not really i mean i i there was some force has accusations uh they said uh i was arrested for handing an stolen portion never stole a car in my life that just came back from burying my dad in jamaica does not even jamaican he was alive at the time underneath my picture it had uh the name michael costello who's michael costello you know whoever wrote the story disregarded to even find out my real name to put it to my picture you know but yeah all kinds of uh stories that were just rubbish basically was there any other gladiators targeted with these sort of stories or was it just yourself just myself do you think racism plays a part um i never really never really looked into it like you know never really sort of uh paid too much thought into is it a racist thing um but i couldn't tell you it i couldn't tell you yeah because it makes you wonder though it makes you question why you then well it does it does i mean i'm in bob winter saying to me god bless that she said to me um good publicity or bad publicity it's good publicity as long as people are talking about you but they never wanted to see me she said they never wanted to see me have that power again as i suppose at the time was a known person bigger than frank Bruno you know bigger than a few people as far as saturday night prime time and and being known to the general public and um yeah she said to me that they never want to see me have that power again again is that racism right don't really don't really don't know people talk about special clubs and special handshakes and we ever offered to be and so these clubs are no no because a lot of people who then get free under the bus tend to no reject these offers because they just want to be their own person and be on tv but when you like you're saying you've got that's a bit of power and fame and if you're not dancing any of their tune yeah fuck you off yeah yeah i think i think that's how that's how it goes i mean there's no one there to uh to guide you there's no one there to say to you okay this is how you gotta be this this is where you should go these are the people you should hang out with these are the people you should be seen with there's nothing there's nothing like that you know just it was just uh i've gone from being uh uh semi-pro bodybuilder to to this famous person that's on prime time tv and it's not so much not knowing how to handle it i ended it pretty well i think you know as far as i was an athlete i was there to show you what a guy like me is going to do to you i think was the whole thing was about the ultimate challenge providing a challenge for the contestants so they you know they have to fight for their points and yeah i enjoyed it i enjoyed it i suited you suited right in did you not have a manager or a pr we did have managers well we did have uh managers and prs but they they weren't allowed to get us any work outside of well they used to get us work outside of lwt as your outside agent means that would find you work and get you gigs and stuff like that um once they saw how much money we were making outside of them having control of it they put a stop to it all all work had to go through lwt or or promotional work or advertising work had to go through lwt they would get their percentage and they would pay you a percentage so the our agents would cut out of the picture it's greed yeah fucking greed yeah how long did gladiators run for um i think it ran for about eight eight years how was leg fashion you and yurika johnson they were nice people i mean i i never knew uh never really was into football so i never knew about john fest knew being you know i heard about his brother but i didn't know too much about him uh or rika i think i remember her from being a weather girl and the news or something uh but yeah they seem to be nice people who did you go on with the most and the gladiators who did i get on with the most uh i think it was all like a tight knit family i never there was never one person that i got on better with than anyone else uh i was a team leader so my job was to bring them together and make them work together and have no fear of the camera and have no fear of being in the arena it's not about us it's about them you know all we're there all we're there for is to provide a challenge but once you enter the arena and lose that thought and of providing a challenge and you start looking at yourself and you don't want to look bad you want to lose games then that's what separated me i think from the rest of them because i wasn't concerned with cameras my job was to provide a challenge and i was gonna provide the ultimate challenge where did you get that leadership skills and the confidence of the bodybuilding help with that i suppose okay that's a single that's a singular um gigging itself bodybuilding is hard work you know you sort down to you how much you eat how much you train um maybe a discipline came from that uh playing american football always being around game team sports who did you look up to like ronnie colman and stuff yeah i know my my time was like arnold was that yeah arnold franklin colombo now i'm 62 talking 70s 80s yeah no oh um 70s 80s yeah we have to be armoured and franklin colombo still look fucking great all those type of guys yeah so that's who you wanted the inspired to be the bigger yeah i mean but i remember seeing a picture of arnold in the changing room when i was in high school in america and i thought you know yeah i could have some of that you know i thought am i looking like that i mean but through through pain american football i was weight training so my body just began to grow so i just kept on training because were the gladiators it says you were kicked off for taking steroids but looking at the gladiators nobody's daft they know who's on the juice yeah maybe not so then now but you know who's on just nobody they they they they they wanted people that looked like us they can only find it in the the bodybuilding world the the the fitness world uh they didn't want uh us looking the same or daddy is looking the same as the contestants contestants were fit people you know swimmers runners marathon runners all that all that type of uh iron man type of people uh so they wanted the next step up and so obviously they knew in the first the first year there was no there was no concern about steroids or no concern about us coming from the bodybuilding world or anything like that they wanted that look now the second year comes along and the show becomes so so much popular and has been scrutinized they had to start now testing us we're not athletes you don't have to test us for for things like that we're entertainers but that's how it went it started to go in that direction like if they were treating us as if we were yeah boxers yeah athletes yeah yeah yeah yeah let you see an entertainer you're a showman what's the difference if you're taking juice or not sure was that just an excuse to maybe have that on the sidelines in case they wanted to get rid of anyone um how they how they how they thought i have no idea how they used to think i had no idea see even just listening to it makes me a question everything and i'm trying to find the angle why how what the what was our purpose yeah because everybody would have been on the juice you just look how fucking they were they were massive so so i mean i think even some of the girls want yeah but check mate i used to love for i'm sure i had a port i was cringe but i was sure i used to have a poster of her in my wall fucking cringe yeah so what was so you didn't get stacked for the steroids it was for the line of gear and the papers yeah yeah why did they say steroids was that i think i just i think they just uh involved the whole the whole steroids cocaine the whole package together really so what was it like then did you were you thinking it's gonna be okay because you were such a high profile name then or did you your world crash instantly uh no my world crashed really um well i had a had a an interview on l w t um a press interview to apologize to my people that i work with and all these kind of stuff and yeah they let me go see that's what i hate about those i apologize and i was just you know met and go and then everybody was like well i shouldn't have done it i just think less than i never done fuck up and your people can make their own assumptions easier hindsight is always a wonderful thing we always say that shit but we ever thinking why should i apologize why should i apologize um because it was that only a paper i suppose i suppose it was uh i knew i had to go guidance again you know like you know not being not being asked if i should apologize or not apologize uh right there's a press conference you're gonna explain yourself away or apologize to the people that you know being affected in this what was it feeling like when you got sacked uh did it take time to sink in or sink yeah yeah i used to have a uh a big g g on the back of my spare tire on the back of the g and uh that had to be removed my shadow number plate had to be removed i felt like uh i felt like um there used to be a program on tv where the guy gets thrown out at the army and they strip his the pills off his shoulder and they break his sword they frame that into the wilderness and that's that's how i felt you know that i was just um i wasn't given no opportunity to say well do i want to go to rehab do you need to go to rehab or or anything like or anything like that it was just gone did you have a habit no not really no no i mean you know in the day we used to i said it was a 14 hour day we used to have a dab of speed in the morning after breakfast to get you through the whole day but no it wasn't to the point where yeah you know man's just losing the plot right how because that's the thing fame's a weird thing luke palgner i don't know if you know who he is a singer but he's really struggling he's mental hell scott he's a kid unbelievable singer unbelievable talent and he's kind of he's got Tourette's now and he's really struggling he's put on a bit of weight and it's just the fame side of things it is difficult for people to handle it the due handle it okay are we thinking this is because it's not real it's a weird little yeah it's a weird little world um uh i don't know where the transition really transition came because i was i was big in the bodybuilding world as well so i used to go and compete i used to have a lot of attention in the bodybuilding world uh moving over to gladiators now um it is a different thing being on tv being in people's living rooms every saturday night uh that type of fame like i said no no one no one um trains you for that you know no one prepares you for it it's something you just gotta take take on and and you deal with it as as you would deal with it i mean i've never been a person with a chip on my shoulder or uh you know i am or do you know who i am sort of being um i was very humble i am very humble so so for me it was comfortable for me yeah the the fame thing was comfortable for me seeing you're doing the bodybuilding and then going to gladiator did you have to stretch weight a stone to stone no no i i um i left the the bodybuilding world about 19 stone i i held that as a gladiator about 18 18 after 19 stone because that's still a if you're competing with the the dual thing with the obviously with the swinging and stuff would have been heavier on the hands the shoulders obviously the bigger the weight yeah but when the gladiators obviously you see bodybuilders and their stuff the gladiators seem to move and yeah they just looked with ease used to watch the contestants and you think they're shite do you know i mean they looked out a place somewhere on there was some of them who you could handle that but so with some you think they shouldn't even be there so because the thing at the end when i used to try and run up travel like that yeah it was an excitement he used to slide down to climb up the wall and slide down like that well it is a great kind of setup for a show that was perfect at that time yeah obviously they're doing a remake now no doubt it'll be popular so see when you get sacked and then the show was running for another five six years after that was hard to watch i never watched it i never did watch it myself once i once i came out of there i didn't watch it again too tough no not so much too tough i was just wasn't gonna watch it again you know at the end of the day i think they went from like 15 million viewers to 12 million that's how many people stopped watching the program when they took me out of it i mean there was there was nothing no more there was no i believe i was the backbone of gladiators the serious side of gladiators you know once that was gone and all you had was the character which was wolf and and and the sexy girl jet you know and that was it no one else was there really competing or was competitive i don't believe there was as competitive as the level that i was on as far as competitive because if anybody has got a habit and i think this is something you could put went to rehab and says look take sex month off yeah come back do another article lesson i'm living a clean life i apologize i'll make up for that and then get back on the next season will you ever thinking about that sort of stuff because you seem such a laid back guy i was never offered that type of stuff like i said to you you know once that came out they fired me simple as that they fired me there was no conversation about do i want to do it do i want to go and do this do i do i feel like i need to help me it was nothing like that they just fired me yeah and and when i think to myself there are people out there that have worked the working industry done for drugs done for this or done for that they're still working yeah they may have been given the opportunity to go to rehab or whatever i don't know but they're still working even up to today you know there's a number of people that have had all kinds of charges maybe didn't go to prison they're still working yeah especially in 90s as well the quote and stuff was everybody was on it everybody was fucking dabbling on it even i would say probably more people are doing it now than ever but the 90s it was more glorified everybody was kind of a party thing lawyers and friday night it was kind of people a bit of money friday night things saturday night thing so see when you get sacked what's that what happens with your life then being a household name popular everybody over there making up about the money uh i went from um being able to get five grams of our plan equipment just for the sake of taking pictures with the management crew at the nc indoor arena to get in my car fully kitted out with shadow gray leather interior because of the name to not even be able to get a packet of batteries from the shop for free yeah that's that's that's that's to ask how much of a drop it was yeah getting all these things for free all this promotion everything from time i got fired it was like i wasn't even the same person did you leave spider after that then yeah yeah i suppose it did yeah did you ever try and claw back and try and do other shows in the office no i did i did a few did a few movies extra extra parts and what we'll come back to um uh some tv shows jonathan's creek and few commercials and stuff like that but no i just kind of seeing it finding it so hard to step back in or to step in on some on some kind of a level that i just kind of move it away but did you give up yeah i suppose i gave up yeah yeah gave up a try yeah they seem to be blackballing me everywhere i went and you if you never really if you ever really questioned it why because you seem so laid back where you've accepted that i'd be thinking something's not fucking right well i might think that's not right just people thrown you under the bus why if they really start story why do you not put any rehab totally let you go to everything off you sure somebody's had that against you whether it's jealousy whether you've listened ruffled feathers on the show what people's not like whether you have got too powerful but people are maybe looking up to you inspired to be you yeah maybe you weren't playing yeah their game i suppose you know i suppose i suppose all that was was going on you know you know i suppose all that was going on i can only go by what people say to me that is uh when there was a kid these two men to their parents and say mum dad am i going to look like that when i grow up when i get when i get bigger i look like me dark i only imagine the amount of people that i've inspired to train weight train gain get involved in sports through seeing me on gladiators um why they why they did what they did i have no idea then another gladiators reach out other than within fizzle with them oh no everything fizzles with them as well um were they taught to stay back i think i think they were yeah it's all the state back i had it i had a dojo in in middle sex and uh a couple of them come over and see the gym and everything and they were told to stay away from the gym stay away from me in case i got myself in trouble and they'd be associated with the gym and stuff like that just um you you wouldn't think that we were all posting it at one point like i said nobody wants to make any waves no one wants to create any problems so they do what they're told yeah but i'd put these in my ship by this man yeah if you've got if you're somebody's your brother or sister no matter if you lose your job your livelihood get cancelled you've still got to make a stand sure i think if we all if they had all stuck together then uh we maybe would have got merchandise right maybe we would have got repeat fees but like i said nobody wanted to make waves and if you didn't like contract you didn't sign it and there was plenty of people that wanted to take your place yeah okay the power of people need to understand power of the mob power of the people are stronger than anybody yeah and the people make a stand that's why people go and strike and do stuff to make a stand they're not taking a shit anymore we want a pay rise we want this and it's not the agreedy you're not asking for 90% of what the income is you're just wanting just an extra bone just to get a bit of sleep and put more food in the fridge feed your kids but 500 quid at a show if they're getting 10,000 arena twice a twice a day sponsors they're raking in millions every week millions yeah i remember the guy that made the dolls he said um he made like four and a half million pound in two years selling those dolls mine wolf's jets the leading selling dolls i mean forget about just the dolls merchandise went across the board so you can only imagine how much money they were making yeah t-shirts first i'm sure i had the the sticks that used to hold i'm sure i got them for christmas so i did but it's crazy to think and it's sad as well because people are naive then and it's okay looking at it now what you should have done differently but then you're just happier bonus mash out sure sure yeah there's that too there's that day this is a pink thing with people in power they just love full control as if they own you yeah nobody owns anybody but try to be do the right thing and people getting paid well it was a different ballgame because greed is what controls the world greed is what poisons men's souls so that's the reality of it nobody cares about you no whether you're only 15 million views one night and then looking in the bin for scraps and that nobody cares yeah once you're gone you're gone yeah and you tend to see that if people just turn your back on you then they will never truly your friends anyway that's true because when the shit hits the fans it's always the ones who have got your back well it's like if you're lucky if there's two or three and you've got any more than that you're you're blessed but when you're going through the motions and when you got basically cancelled with the call at this day and age what did you what did you do with your life then obviously you've done a bit extra work but were you just kind of deflated yeah totally deflated i've gone from being there to there you know to ground zero you know i mean to strip my car of its labels and everything can just uh yeah overnight yeah because my mental health and stuff wasn't spoke about then the 90s no now it's everybody speaks about mental health everybody's struggling so we get that but wasn't anybody you could this it was was anybody you could speak to to kind of understand what you're going through or was it just might not get on yeah yeah might not get on with it yeah yeah when was the first time you went to prison uh september 11th uh 2011 when they're claims willing to tell us yeah that's the first time what happened why did i get to prison i don't know i think it was uh might have been a shoplifting charge or something was that all over the papers yeah i think every time i've been inside it's been in the papers yeah and what's goes through your mind when you're inside does it still play in your mind that you're on a hot show and then you're in prison for shoplifting uh no i think i got over it by then um you know you always get people that come up to you and say oh man what happened to you man you know you was this you was that the day i had a job on tv that was about it yeah is that hard for you when people say that yeah it used to be not so much now i mean you're talking 30 years down the road so i've kind of gotten i've gotten over it now uh when people see me for the first time or they realize who i am and that um they seem pretty excited pretty uh you know uh pleased to see me which is which is good it's good why does it take you so long to tell your story um i've never had the opportunity really i've i've never never really learned the access that social media has an instagram and youtube and all that type of thing i've said this the first time i'm doing something like this and you know i should have been doing that a long time ago but really never yeah but you seem like a fucking decent guy you're not here being arrogant and shouting you seem very calm collective and i'm just surprised that you just let it go so long with them and just obviously it's difficult because nothing you can't do except move on yeah nowadays you've got i like to think people get managers and PRs to say look we can do this differently we can do this we can help you make extra money here because if that guy's making four and a half mulching off of your name then something ain't right yeah that's not normal yeah that's you people are buying you yeah yeah it's crazy how people get used in that industry yeah and then when it's done the lights are off that's on to the next show same as people go to love island it's a bit cringe for me but 10 years ago i'd have probably went on something like that but you tend to see a lot of these kids are coming from nowhere get this mass amount of fame can't handle it because it fizzles they're forgotten about six months 12 months but they can't handle it here no because they think they're not good enough anymore they think nobody loves them or nobody cares but it's just the way the world works everything changes things move on i think i think when they when they set out to uh when they set out to become famous that that's that's that's when they take on a whole sort of kind of worms i i never i never set out to be famous i was just about term pro in bodybuilding didn't get through the nfl just about term pro used to watch the american program on a friday night saw they're looking for people i thought hey i could have some of that yeah use my use my choosy for something like that but i never had this uh burning desire to be a celebrity to be famous nothing else the difference uh with people that don't end up handling things and those that uh you know did they feel like another rejection from not getting in the nfl to then being glad it was then kicked off and then was it a rejection king the thing where it was a struggle as well or did you just get on with it i'll try and make something of it uh just try and make something of it really yeah i mean i kind of wish that uh no i don't wish i kind of think to myself you know i could have got my pro card i could have made a good living from being a professional bodybuilder instead i went that way um yes it did make me famous um but what's come of it a whole whole whole ride of destruction and and all types of things have come of me being a gladiator why did you never go back to bodybuilding why didn't i go back to it yeah all right good question yeah good question i don't know why i didn't just deflated yeah i think it's just yeah i think yeah yeah i think by then coming out of gladiators and doing my little tours in prison and just getting involved in the dark side just yeah just move it out really yeah one show up in the door there the dark side yeah one negative thing yeah you're opening the door to 100 yeah you know that yourself you're in that positive path nothing all the negativity is kind of bounces off you so one show up in that door yeah you know how fast you can start doing plus who you were then as well people they've been using you to be around you to offer you this and that just snakes they don't care about you they want you to do this and that and they think you think you're if you're on your ass and you're saying you know they're good guys are giving me money they're not because you're jeopardizing getting put back into prison again and it's mad because it took me 30 odd years to kind of awaken to they had my friends they want me to do this they want me to do what at that time it seemed normal the shit i was doing to feed the family and provide but you look back and it's madness it's psychotic yeah because that's where the depths of life sometimes can take you yeah looking for outlets and if you're doing it in a negative way i believe in karma karma comes around and goes okay like we'll get you maybe not this year five years yeah could be 10 years but we'll be fucking yeah how many stunts you've done in prison uh gone quite a few i'm ashamed to say um in the beginning it was you know two weeks here two months there five months there that's everything and your big one you just was six years ago yeah yeah yeah does it ever sink that when did that ever sink in you looks like a not like a rising fall but it's being at the top to then prison as the the lowest you can go basically i've been prison myself it's fucking horrible place and i would never wish upon anybody you know how shit it is and the people in it the people in it i wouldn't say there's shit because i'm still friends with people who i was in with and they're mad bastards i went down a different journey now and i've learned from it but it's not that people are bad they just do bad shit because the pressures of life did it ever sink in no where your life ended up yeah i suppose i suppose it yeah it's had to have sunk in at some point you know i've lost myself my god you know i had a life but no i mean ap address board shitless you know and uh waiting to get a flat waiting to get a job just the norm really yeah so you got over six years what was that for blackmail yeah most imprisonment blackmail and what did you do over three years yeah about three years two months what jail were you i was in scrubs i've been locked down then i was in high down and then i was in ford uh i've been prison decap prison how do people treat you and prison the people still know who you are oh yeah once they obviously tell them the name in the back store it's like you say it was 30 years ago yeah but it's still i've still seen gladiators there's only five years ago 10 years ago it's not me who says to put 30 years i've had to do the sum in my head i thought what but it's mad how you know yourself time flies it's unbelievable how fast time goes so when you're inside prison because you're still in great shape you still look the part you still look good that's right so when you're in prison how you how do you go through your sentence uh i've always worked in prison some sorts for my job people have always gotten well with me always happy to see me you know shake my hand i suppose these are the ones that the guys who grew up watching gladiators you know people that remember gladiators uh i suppose i've left a fund memory in their mind because like you know i i get reaction like i get there is the same i was getting 30 years ago when people see me for the first time because i'm doing a reunion they're seeing you do it they don't reunion tours you were banned to go and stuff yeah they didn't invite me no and even then i used to think to myself well why how can you have a reunion and not invite me but they never what have you done me koi you should have to produce your daughter something don't do something i don't know i don't know about a fucking gear 25 30 years ago and you're still getting rejected sure sure look at that look at that now what do i what do i paint what what do i paint that what picture do i paint from that what am i supposed to think from that you have the reunion and you don't invite me so the whole nation is sitting there saying well we're shadow you can't have you can't have a reunion from gladiators from the 90s and not invite me like when they started to advertise the fact that they're gonna start a new show i think they had sarasen lightning and hunter was on some breakfast tv program obviously they can't mention me i'm in prison but the guy that's doing the interview for the for this program comes busting out from behind this paper mashay war carrying a puto stick now if you're carrying that stick do any thought that a person is going to have when they see that stick is me so for me that was satisfying enough that he he busted out of that paper wall carrying that stick so even though i wasn't there the millions of people that are watching that breakfast tv program seeing him hold that stick that know about gladiators no that's my stick i'm the only person to break those sticks i'm the only person to use that stick the way i used it you know uh took it to a new level the american said do you mean they never used to hit below the waist and i used to hit you all over with that stick i'm surprised americans never took you on could you not have went over there they came to us for the international gladiators but yeah um again you know i don't know what never took me on i wish i did yeah do you miss that uh no i like me too like i said it's three years ago a long time ago i got good memories of it you know i still get um my appreciation for being in it when i meet people so i'm i'm good yeah that's the thing as well even though you're getting used you're still living a good life where you're living a dream of millions who watch you're actually living it you have got the opportunity the chances just so happens with the big corporations they just take take take they just plead people dry and like i said it's the greed of the world instead of giving everybody a bone in making everybody listen you're doing your part you're making the show millions there's a bonus or making bonuses and certain hitting certain views you should be getting extra money but that's just the way i am so see they're making a remake now is that then bring it all back to the surface and bring back all the emotions where it's because it's a years lesson for me yeah you've had team here for the episode or are you with would you watch the new show i might watch you just to see how see what the yeah yeah basically yeah see what they got to offer but uh it wouldn't be a you know a regular occurrence but um yeah i would just watch it just to see i'd like to see what what what they what they think they're gonna do now that they didn't do back then i can't maybe it's me being a bit biased but i can't see it being as popular as the first time around no because the thing now is just so much social media there's so much youtube and tech talking there's so many outlets of people to view i think it's not a case of tv yeah five stations sure i think it was four stages yeah that's right that's why people just had their terry yeah that's now i get days it's they'll be lucky maybe had five million viewers but then in this day and age and tv still great numbers back then you're walking i think it was over 20 million people used to watch only thousand horses sometimes it's 30 million that's unbelievable figures how much people just loved the terry yeah used to get the magazine at the weekend and circle out with your money watch how's life now how's life now uh well this life's good i mean i got my health i got my kids you know my son's in thailand at the moment he's uh does mma fine doing that i fine so he's he's been out there for about a month my daughter works in pr she's big in the game as well so the kids are doing fantastic um you know just stepped out after sitting for three years um looking to do something looking to see what i can do what what's open for me what can you do for anybody watching late i see you're a humble guy you're quite you're quite i'm i'm i'm an artist at heart you know i i draw i can draw anything um looking to get into tattooing i just got me a machine um waiting for some fake skin to come to get involved in that but yeah i'm uh i'm an artist outside of this physical body other than that i train people you know personal training so for anybody watching just people with these podcasts people love to help as well a lot of people go do you know what he seems like a good guy i'm going to give him a chance it's all down to you where you take that chance listen you could fuck it after a week maybe the gladiators were right to get rid of you nobody knows no or you can be an absolute workhorse and a diamond in the rough where people go he's fucking unbelievable that guy yeah there are genuinely good people on this planet as well where people like to help out and offer and people do it a little bit because helping people is it's good for your soul yeah good for your soul yeah so your kids are doing fine so when you get older you know yourself you don't really become as selfish your kids are your priority and if your kids are doing well you're already winning yeah anything else that comes out of your life in my opinion is a bonus but for me i'm quite not greedy with its money money money but greedy just to keep going and whatever i'm doing i know it's working it's like a winning mentality i'm winning yeah i don't want to ever lose so just keep going going and going but sometimes you can forget the most beautiful things and as as your kids sure listen my kids are fucking pests it's only twelve and thirteen three look fuck and they do my head and i'm going to lie but i love them and everything i do is for them to give them a better life more opportunities that our dad never had and just seeing them happens what makes me happen yeah as cheese as it is but it's true so your son's a fighter yeah how old they're twenty eight they're twenty other twins uh they're 28 good age yeah good age yeah so is he gonna have any fights yeah he's had a few fights out in thailand he's he's getting ready to come back here uh and fight i think in the end of july or august some lies and be fine how is it watching your son fake yeah good good i never i was surprised when he came to me said he that's what he was doing i mean he's a plumber by trade guess man that uh anytime we wanted to fight you know i thought well you know are you as fit as fucking as hard as nails you know because at the end of the day if you want to be involved in that type of game you gotta have those two things you gotta be as hard as nails and you gotta be as fit as yeah you know you've got to be otherwise don't don't do it and but he's uh he's uh embracing it he's loving it yeah yeah it's a good life loving it i was actually looking to go last year for six weeks you can do like a camp and thailand we just training twice a day eating fruit yeah so he's just eating good but you've got to be tapped yeah every fighter i've heard a little something not quite be tapped but why do you want to give points to the next it's it's bad berik yeah but there's something in it where when you do it you you genuinely do feel like a man yeah if i'm sparring or doing any sort of combat you feel it's scary you always get scared i don't give a fuck anybody says but after it's there's a feeling of something that you don't feel from drugs or yeah success and money there's just a feeling of a feeling like a man sure there's like a purpose yeah and because it is scary i don't know if it's overcoming fears but those fighters especially mma they're not right in the head no anybody who wants to do that you've got to question the sanity yeah but even if you see the the bare knuckle fighters now fucking unbelievable faces out here blood everywhere it's just mad the boxers boxing seems PG you probably get hit more as boxers boxers than that did you never think about taking up fighting yourself no no but yeah because what i hate you i'm six three but that's big for a bodybuilder no yeah yeah i'm same same height as arnold uh they're all smaller now though yeah they do all about yeah it's on the poor kind of to love to bits and because you see them in the magazines and the tv i was expecting a big massive fucking yeah come in i was shorter than me yeah that's fucking hell yeah unbelievable he wants six now oh yeah it's a muscle off the bone yeah they regret not giving it another crack yeah i do you know uh to offer it now but uh in order to produce that kind of muscle but yeah i try and keep myself in shape um but yeah i do i do regret not going all the way when i had the opportunity to go all the way and then again changing that direction from that to that and again not going all the way you know how's your training now oh good good i i trained by today now there's a strength go down as you get older yeah strength is no i don't have the same strength obviously i had 30 years ago but you know i have enough to get through because your shoulders and stuff seem massive then what wait you know i'm one of five so still no bad so when the strength declines a bit and the testosterone drops a bit the how does that make you feel older yeah it's a fucking and i used to play football but even when i play football now i play football with death i'm ending in my mind i'm still 21 yeah still feeling like my daughter so but just everything just seems to be fucking be gone yeah in my mind though i've got it yeah but they just it's mad how the mind stays young sure the body sometimes lets you know that young dick wake up on the next day grinds us or caps us or how you treat why are you trying twice a day just to keep just to keep busy ahead of life yeah just to keep busy um until something comes james how long you haven't licensed for another three years mm-hmm even that's a scary thought no not a scary thought in the sense that i'll get any problems or anything but um you know you don't you don't even have to be in any problems to uh get recalled association can get you record yeah exactly being late back at the back in a b can get your report and kinds of stuff yeah you've probably got a parole officer and stuff yeah well yeah i've got you got a sign in no no signing i i'd go to see a probation officer once a week um and i got one of the ap address as well which i'll see once a week yeah what do you have any triggers we'll get you what passes you off triggers yeah i used to i used to have triggers i mean just being just from being fucking bored with triggering me off to do science during but no i sort of look at things now is uh i don't have too much time left i don't know how much time and i ain't gonna waste it uh i've been doing shit like that how do you stay out of prison then if it's been your kinder life what over time you're just standing out do how do i stay out would he meet from now yeah uh just keep my nose clean and uh staying away from good crosses and people that you know just saying what i've been around and concentrate on my kids and concentrate on like i said salvaging myself can't go out like this you know can't go out just as uh had been druggy can't go out like that that's not me it's never been me it's just something that happened you know and i'm trying to correct it yeah that's all you can do as a vector yeah when we spoke earlier that's all we people can make the changes people can do you know what i fucked up there i've kind of went became a lost soul for a while so and out of prison and so yeah even just speaking to you you see my good guy and i'm rooting for you and i hope genuinely everything does work out but i believe you have got more to give yeah i believe people can be defeated so much and deflated where i don't know how to get back on it and become stronger and pump themselves up because they just feel like a failure rejection just hits them that hard what do you think i'm never going to get another chance people make their own chances keep banging that door down if anyone will open because you've got a story there with a hat show possibly a book and documentaries and you've got you've got something you've got listen even though i'm glad it was the best time you leave probably the worst after that you can still make money from it but this is what i'm hoping yeah yeah this is what i'm hoping i'm hoping that there is there's some avenue i can go down you know being this person i don't see why not yeah i'm friends with murderers bank robbers drug lords nobody fucking cares as long as you're doing good now if they were still active now i'd be thinking look i can't speak to you i'm clean cut now but i'll give everybody the time of day if you've done shit in the past i don't care as long as you've made amends as long as you put your hands up the first thing is taking responsibility a lot of people struggle with but people would put their hands up and say you know what drug lords i fucked up i destroyed thousands of lives i i was just in that game where i was greedy i was just trying to make money i never cared about destruction of others but you're making me you're speaking around schools you're talking to people not to miss it that's a noble thing that i can respect that because you don't know who your suckler friends is going to be when you're young you're just happy to have friends so whether they're being dodgy or straight lying down the middle making money you just sometimes it's the luck of the draw with your environment yeah but there comes a stage when adults need to open their eyes and go i'm not enjoying this lifestyle i can make changes that's the thing about these podcast people will come forward and say i want to give you a chance because people know who you are and somebody messes me on and i say i'll get him on a million percent and who you were i was a massive fan of the gladiators so people will give you a chance because who you were 30 years ago nobody cares about your past you'll get the odd ass hole go ah he's in prison i said you're always going to get pricks everywhere you go but you because of who you are nobody cares if you're in prison everybody knows some of the drugs i've been in prison now it's 2023 the world's a fucking mad place isn't it is it mate are you questioning life a lot more because when i was asking you questions at the start you've just never thought about it that way you never really questioned the dark side of the world but you seem at a stage of life i don't want to go like this and i'm just trying to question it make better decisions yeah make better decisions yeah be around better people you know being around being around myself because i think i lost myself for a long time so being around myself and you know finding finding myself again yeah good on you how much has exercise helped you stay sane saying a lot a lot i don't you know i don't feel right if i don't go to the gym um feel lazy in the foul drink everything you know i need i need to be trained yeah who's your eating eating is not too great i mean the things are so expensive out here you know that i can't eat the way i would like to eat but you know i'm eating day in life yeah that's all you can do stay alive really do but like i say for anybody watching is there any way for people to contact you or do you want me to leave an email for people to maybe come through me and i can contact you yeah yeah or is there some day i can leave like an instagram or a twitter i don't know i know you're not really clued up where actually uh i imagine my daughter has something like that but she's aware of it but uh but you can ask her then send me that's a lot about for a few weeks anyway but where do you go for us for the future where do i go for well like i said i just uh brown brown my now i'm waiting for my driver's license to appear to come to me uh i just waited for the city and girls certificates to come from the prison uh hopefully with these bits of paper i can join an agency and get some work you know just slowly slowly take one step at a time that's all you can do as long as it's positive yeah as long as it's positive steps that's right and uh you know doing things like this and i think there's another guy um i was introduced to a youtube man tick nick tick yeah yeah and he uh was asking about me coming on coming on that so i'm gonna do that as well that's all as it's just getting your name out there again and people some do go i'm gonna give him a chance that's all it's about and we're not mainstream media where things are trying to throw people under the bus my job is only to let people tell them story from their side the British public are quite clued up in who's good and who's bad in life you can't really feel them a lot of people listen there's me stupid people out there were easily fucking filled but the the vast majority of people they know who's the real deal and who's there's a fakery and there's something not right do you see my guy who just he goes through the motions in life just doing these things but you've had a massive career you kind of lost it you've lost who you were but like you says it's to find out who you are again and enjoy life and yeah we're breathing sure we can't smile we can't fucking laugh and just go do you know what i'm breathing my kids are fine i'm worrying okay i'm i'm eating fucking toast and beans again but i'm eating and i don't think there's always somebody worse off but when you're on the toast and beans i'm eating well now so there's times when i fucking struggled i gambled everything i would had to go to my mum's to get food and whatever but i think the struggles make you who you are as well yeah make sure appreciate the finer things i do think we can take it for granted but like i say you can use the fuckups of the past being sacked and being in prison talking in schools and getting paid for it you've got a good story sad as well though because life doesn't just it's sad that people just not give up but they just totally forget that life goes on instead of living on the past which is difficult but obviously this is the first time you're kind of speaking out we've got to touch on it but yeah you can make yourself a brighter future do you realize that as well yeah yeah do you worry that you could potentially go back no go back where to prison isn't no i i have no intention on going back to prison so none at all you know um none at all mate what about drinking and stuff drinking i don't really drink i might have a beer once in a while but i don't not drink did was your mental health did it ever totally go suicidal thoughts or anything no nothing like that nothing like that i've never been as low as i've been i've never um thought to harm myself or take my own life but nothing like that it's sad because a lot of people who do end up with big tv careers and they get sacked or they get cancelled or whatever they just can't handle it anymore because they feel they're forgotten hope they get a fuck about you anyway when you're on a tv yeah after the show's gone after a few weeks everything fuzzles i mean i i saw things myself now you know okay it was 30 years ago jeff you know i'm not trying to uh get something i'm not trying to become this person again i just want to uh find a way of making some form of living or money from being that person you know the people out there who are less known than myself that create something for themselves so even like the book um you know i'm halfway there because i'm i'm known by millions of people so it's just a matter of me finishing that book and getting out there really that's that's what i'm thinking yeah of course because there's people though there's people out there older than you doing more than you there's people like they're younger than me older than me doing more than me there's you see the Paralympics and you're thinking fuck me that these people are putting in graft and showing they're not quitting sometimes we've got all the tools we need to be something yeah but we just don't use them because i don't know if it becomes laser there's just so many different factors it comes into it but it's just you've still got time you're still breathing you're still fit you're still strong you can write that has had Susie something on who wrote a book 60s a new 40 so you've still got that physique it's still looking great you can still how people you see people in their 40s and 50s and they can't go out of bed yeah the fuck that variety seeps in they stop training they stop exercising they stop stretching so you're still ahead in 90 percent of the people your age yeah people your age are sitting in the pub wasting their life and it's sad maybe they've lost a loved one you you'll see the old guy sitting in the corner drinking his whiskey it's not that they're bad but they've just they gave up yeah for me they're the then there's just sometimes it's better that i'm not here and that's the sad reality because they're just going through the motions of the existing yeah everybody's got something special you can learn play a new instrument learn a new language you can do whatever the fuck you want at any age just it's just a case of wanting to yeah purpose getting up and finding the drive yeah you feel that you're getting that drive back though and a bit of purpose yeah well that's that's that's why i think you know getting in the gym every day is gives me purpose gives me you know drive just be up yeah yeah yeah do you have any contact with any of the old cast the gladiators no i've i don't think i've spoken to any of them just i've come out of the idea it's about heavy that and you know and and a few of them have sold sold stories to the papers you know i think to myself my god is that what you're gonna talk about you know is that what you're gonna say about me you know i know so much about all of you but yeah i i for the life of me can't be asked to go and tell you on about it why why would i but then i think myself why are you doing that to me why are you selling stories why why are you uh talking about me like that six points before before going out into the arena who drinks six points again is before going out in front of is that all you've got to say is all you could find to say about me and these are you know this is like cobra this is the guy who used to make me laugh on that is but yeah yeah when i when i've been interviewed this is what he's telling them i know things about cobra that you know but why why would i tell anybody just to tell a story or to talk about them i think that says more about your character in theirs oh yeah anybody who sells your stories and scumbag your eyes because you're selling you're selling out because the people who sell stories and do other stories is to deflect away from what they're really hiding that's the problem standing staunch and going you know what i know shit about all them but i'm not really going to listen everybody's got to like to defend herself if people are speaking shit then you've got to fire back don't get me wrong but there comes a time when you go you know what they're not worth the air yeah that's that's how i think i'm so i think those are true colors of play cards exactly does that then make you question that there could have been somebody in your team that's through you under the bus and and created the rumors listen it's really a fucking saint you're dabbling speed and doing whatever again but i'd imagine everybody was involved oh yeah i just think they've been you've been picked out we need to get somebody we'll get the captain we'll get the leader we'll get one of the biggest stars on the show a lot of jealousy because i don't know i never i've never worked i was always a dodgy bastard i got my first job at 30 and i don't know a pt course it was like in 10 six weeks but i never knew it was about the anatomy and the heart and the liver and all the mad shit so i cheated and then i was six weeks in a personal training job but what people don't know i've got good communication skills so i would speak to old john it was sitting in the the road machine on the bike talking about his kids and his dog and he lost his wife and then he would come at me four weeks later because he'd go james can you train me yeah all these steroids and juice heads with they couldn't hear about communication skills it looked in the mirror i was in the gym the job six weeks six weeks in the job became head pt i never had a fuck it because i wasn't the best shade but i could talk so so i was feeling booked so and i never felt i've never felt hate and jerry said maybe if you're out nightclubbing there's a lot of me with about a jerry six i always had a suit on always like very smart but i just seen people turn and i've never felt it in my my fucking they were making up stories little chinese whispers because i'd get the job they were doing the job 10 20 years i was doing it six weeks come in smash that i was hiring people and sat in people but i never felt jerry say like it yeah and that's only in a gym so never mean to hit show so if somebody's getting all the publicity and all the attention and the the main guy in the captain everybody wants to be leader but that sticking people in and selling stories that's a rat that i'm a leader he shouldn't be steering the ship it's the one who stands strong and goes you know what you've said shit about me but i'm gonna just let you have your say yeah don't get me wrong there come to a time when i'm gonna fire back because i ain't a fucking idiot you're gonna step forward listen i'll always step forward but people show their true colors and if i'm getting that shit on a fucking gym i don't really give a fuck about i was just doing it to make myself feel proud that was worth something i was working again and people with little snakes never mind a hit show when people are selling stories so it does make you question that something has threw you under the bus along the way you've been a target to maybe save their ass save their job and you're the one but again you can't hold back on this in anger towards people that consumes you exactly yeah so the people were actually sharing stories about you yeah yeah yeah even up to just recently uh uh while while i was inside the the stories i've you know been in the paper about four or five times since i was inside um if it if it wasn't to promote the new gladiators coming out some some story but attached to those stories were former gladiators that were selling their stories and talking about talking shit about me but you become the easy target but you have gave them the ammunition they've been in prison yeah so everything they'll say they believe because you're the bad guy yeah yeah you can understand that as well yeah they're getting paid a little shattered story keeping their name in the the paper while discrediting you but then i believe you'll be the one coming out okay yeah if you just stay on the path do the right thing big things will happen again get a book out i'm happy to have you on again to promote your book yeah i've got big contacts with other podcasters where you can go on their shows because the thing about these these have bigger numbers than the actual tv than the newspapers oh that shit's fizzled now this is a new media yeah but people are getting a fair shot but i've done a 400 and i've used people are gonna come on and talk pure shit and lie that's my job is not to to be the judging jury yeah my job is just to guide the story where people can make their own assumptions and if people like you they'll like you they'll invest in it you know go he's a good guy so you can get your book out you don't need the mainstream media don't get me wrong there's good reporters as well who do their job they just wanted to do the right thing but there's there's snakes everywhere in life yeah i'm sure there is when do you think the book will be finished uh not for a while james uh i did have i did have like 75 percent of it done before i went prison um but after losing the flat and everything that was in it so that's gone so i have to start it all over again really how did you lose the flat just from being me ah you need to come out and get another flat you need to get a shared accommodation uh right now i'm in the ap address but i'm waiting to find i'm going to go and view a few places this week good yeah that's all you can do but listen i wish you nothing but the best for a shooter hopefully you get your book out screwing that stay out of fucking prison it's difficult though it's okay me saying that because life is going okay but when you're on your ass it's hard because you just want to survive and that's when the temptation kicks in yeah well i felt like money did take my fucking yeah but only thing is that sort of stuff for doing three years inside especially in your sixties it's not a good look you know you know yourself you're not daft so for anybody watching that's maybe getting through the same struggles that you're going through and just kind of try to survive and stay out of prison what advice would you have for them keep your chin up and chest out in the world world too yeah that's my brother would you like to finish up on anything no i'm good shadow listen if i come on a day it's telling your story you see you seem like a right decent guy i wish you nothing but the best for a shooter for anybody watching drop me a message if you can offer the big man work in london you want to be a tattoo artist yeah maybe even a labouring job something you want to take anything so anything yeah then drop me a message and i'll pass it on and hopefully somebody can give him a chance but that's all we can do i hope to see you back home with your book but listen stay strong stay out of trouble and god bless you brother yes thank you