 I thought that we knew everything already and so I started doing research and for me to come in and be like I have to lay the foundations of knowledge It's weird. It feels like I'm bending the laws of nature. It's like it's hard to know where to go or where to look So it's so like sometimes it's just You know whatever you want to see take yourself there take that risks and If it doesn't take you anywhere then you'll have your answer but more times than not you'll realize that it opens and It doesn't end like you might explore something impossible and start to see that it's actually leading you to something You might be afraid that it leads you astray But even then What's the point of life if you're not even enjoying being astray because that's probably what our whole lives might feel like It's about it's like enjoying that chase too Boom, what's up everyone welcome to simulation. I'm your host Alan Sokian. We are still in Cambridge in Massachusetts We are now going to be talking about brain technologies. We have Alexi Schweri joining us on the show. Hello everyone Thank you so much for coming on. I'm really grateful for Sarah Neusch, Bob Konova for introducing us. Thank you We love you. We love you Sarah Neusch. Shout out to you and This is going to be a lot of fun. Alexi's background check this out He's a neuro engineer paving the way for interfacing our minds with machines He's a PhD student at MIT working on developing new technologies to help us understand and Repair the brain and you can check out Alexi's LinkedIn link below All right, Alexi. Let's start things off with the One of our favorite questions. We like asking We find ourselves as stewards of Earth. What is your current take on the state of humanity? State of humanity. I Think we can go both ways things are going good things are going bad things are going I Think I'd like to be optimistic. I Think each moment. I feel like the the human spirit We when things go down when we hit rock bottom, we'll find a way to pick ourselves up It's cyclical goes up and down, but overall trajectory is going up And I think you know times right now seems like they might be plateauing. There's there's tension, but I I trust we'll pull ourselves out. I think we always do so that's kind of my take on that Yeah, yeah, I hope that this time that we are approaching this very prominent Slash pinnacle moment of technological advancement and development that we make it through And not go back. Yeah, no more cycles just just up just acceleration Yeah, I feel that yeah, I feel that for sure. We have a lot to a lot that we're dealing with Let's jump into the journey. Okay, how did you become who you are today? because born in Lebanon and then came to the US and then back to Lebanon so I was initially born in the US Okay, but my parents wanted me to grow up in Lebanon. So I had my first birthday there with my twin brother and Pretty much grew up there and then came back to the US for for high school and college and now I'm still here born here Back to Lebanon for 12 years 12 years with you said a brother. You have twin brother. Yeah I have a couple of other siblings too, but you know you have a twin though. Yes, I do. He looks nothing like me Oh, he does Robert. Yeah, that's Yeah, because I how would I know you could potentially be but he has red hair and yeah, okay, it's red-haired freckles It's so weird. How'd that happen? Yeah? adoption But yeah, so My parents wanted to go back things were settled there They had left because of issues there initially, but you know, they wanted me to figure out my roots culture pick that up Being there was amazing Very diverse beautiful country There's political turmoil turmoil from time to time got exposure to poverty war different religions We did ultimately leave in 2006 because of a war that broke out So I was a US citizen living abroad in Lebanon being Lebanese and Yeah, we were evacuated by the by the American military. So I had I had to leave couldn't say bye to my friends or family It was a quick decision. My mom woke me up out of bed and we had to go Then we it was like that you literally my mom woke me up said grab a backpack. We're leaving. I Didn't know I was coming to the US. I was still in the sixth grade. I had loved the US I came once for for a wedding, but Beyond that it happened all of a sudden. That's that's how wars work. So wow, yeah, you know things happen for a reason they inspired me Showed me that the true nature of the world Or at least a how humans can do things that you know, I kind of view things as I Never feel bad. I never feel I Kind of feel like these are all things I look at and it inspires me what I want the future to look like So it's not really something that I I don't embody the fear that I experienced in general I you know, it was an adventure. That's how I view it and all it does is push me. It doesn't stop me. So So yeah, I think the scary part was really coming to the US. It was it was a culture shock I hadn't really we moved to Arizona the desert and Just trying to come and then make new friends all of a sudden get used to the culture I think that was one of the biggest elements, but But yeah that Growing up in the Middle East. I felt like Science was my rock. I felt like there are different religions people are fighting For I found I felt drawn to nature. I used to love watching nature videos I felt like science had answers there. There was numbers. There was no argument So to me at that at that point in my life. I really felt like science gave me a sense of stability about Maybe we can find ways to explain what's going on around us And that way we can develop ways to intervene so from from my mind. I felt By understanding what's happening around us. We can engineer solutions And I fundamentally was interested in humans in the human condition And that led me to being interested in the mind and the brain and how we behave why behave You know and I initially wanted to be a doctor to help people but then as I Saw that things go beyond the body. Like I also studied economics in college. I got very interested in poverty I got very interested in many many other things. So like holistically, how can we how can we intervene? Because science is one element that I start to realize over time But yeah, this the story of of you seeing the human behavior around you and Wanting to understand how humans work in order to be able to tackle and to intervene In creating potentially more peace and harmony I think that's a very beautiful when you position science as this rock That's an objective rock and in a very subjective battle. Yeah thoughts And all this other type of yeah, and you know, I think it I Rationalized and I think initially it was I was emotionally drawn to it. It's just you're curious about the nature of reality I Also my interaction with my cousin who had brain cancer when he was eight. He's he's much older now Things like that begin you begin to question like why is there disease? Can I do anything about it? What is cancer? You know my my family didn't really know how to dive deeper. They just knew what it was So it's like kind of my curiosity with there are problems here, you know, just at a very young age And no one had the answers. I would ask the dumbest questions all the time. Why are bananas yellow? Why is the sky blue and like my parents just Had to deal with that, you know, it's just there was something about where I was I was not satisfied with the answers I was getting Which drove me deeper and deeper into trying to figure things out not only because I'm inherently curious I think that's the one one element, but Huge yeah, probably the most important driving force and then you know the application of that Yeah, yeah, you would you would take the curiosity that you have about, you know Really why does cancer happen or why are bananas yellow? Yeah, you would apply that understanding into learning about how? Things actually work in the world. It's like a translational curiosity. Yeah one that gives you an expanded awareness you had the story of being you know having war or or any type of violent Uprising cause a An evacuation Is a nuts thing to happen, but it's also very interesting how you phrase it as something that potentially has Been that this great challenge that you've now found the greatest treasures on the other side. Yeah. Yeah I'm you know at this point in my life. I try and Transcend like the duality of good or bad. I think things are caught. There's contrast and it steers us Because I I can be a very pessimistic If I want to and it could hold me back, you know and sometimes all we have is what's in front of us and you know in a way I When you when you feel like you're a victim long enough And you exhaust yourself you can't help but feel like there has to be something I can do and I can't just sit here And you know, you know, I I always feel like Yeah, the thing the things that happened to me it propelled me and I am grateful for them and in a in a way Not that I'm masochistic or anything. It's just totally just yeah grateful for the challenges for us to have the A goal of overcoming them and learning. Yeah, you you know, this is you know It's making more sense about how you shaped your your interest in in neuroscience and human behavior Now I want to I want to get a little bit deeper into You know at the same time as you're really making the the move Here and you're like 12 when you're making the move here and you're in Arizona But then you end up pursuing your PhD at MIT, right throughout this process. You also have a Through your insatiable curiosity you're realizing, you know how Crazy interesting it is that we have this consciousness that it gives us the ability to perceive and educate ourselves and to feel And also create and so I loved how you were teaching about that. Yeah, I think in a way I was I was in high school and I was like, what am I going to do and I I just felt like somehow the mind was this Singular point the black box that encompassed us, you know You had to fundamentally understand biology to understand the brain that can really help us just understand how cells work But then there's mind and behavior which might help us with dealing with with poverty with mental health with With violence things at the political level law and even try and derive computations for artificial intelligence I just felt like if I could be in this space That I could just maximize my effect on many many things Fundamentally understand myself, which I think we're all doing every day and Understand others and try and bridge that gap and make things more relatable I think sometimes the the brain taught me how to forgive people if if you know, I remember earlier in my life It's like if someone was angry, you know, I would just be like this is a response This is this is all they know it I it was an object that allowed it almost allowed me to Blame their brain and not them, you know, you can you can find many ways to to to develop empathy, you know Studying sociopaths or you know things of that form. It just made me feel like there's there's a tangibility to To the problems in the world if we can understand the brain so yeah, so That led me So I did a lot of research in college. I was interested in just understanding how neurons work and how they how genetics might relate to neurological disorders But then I start to realize that When I got to grad school at MIT that I got less interested in this Discovering things because I felt we were limited by our technologies and I just think it's in the air MIT So I picked up engineering Neuro engineering specifically is a field to develop technologies that can make us and We use the word interrogate the brain study the brain in ways we couldn't before And you know, there's a funny analogy where neuroscience right now is we're trying to paint a car to get to the moon So meaning like we need we need more tools. We need to build rockets. Yeah to build telescopes like we are There are using paintbrushes instead of yet making the new tools. Yeah, it's rockets telescopes So I I felt that when I was trying to decide what to do with my PhD I felt in a way very hopeless that The conclusions that we make about the brain that because it's so complex billions of neurons with trillions connections Millions of molecules in each neuron I just felt like there is no way in my lifetime that I'm going to To help So I felt like it in order to catalyze this I needed to enter the enter the technology space to help Empower us to build the tools to help us see further to expand the visibility Get more numbers more data whatever it takes to understand the system. So that was the mindset I took to enter the neuro technology space was to It gives us the ability to understand the brain and by understanding its intricacies We can think of intricate solutions So really it's kind of like this feedback of understanding what the problem is which we fundamentally do not know what causes disease in the brain we don't even know how a single neuron works and There are people that study worms that have only 300 neurons compared to like a hundred billion. We don't even know how It makes decisions So just to say like there's work that needs to be done, but there are efforts in this space An attempt to again tie into all the things I said that would maximize impact like the brain in some ways is the last Frontier at least we think right now Yeah, well we think right now. Yeah, that's because we hit a wall. Yeah, hopefully new frontiers continue this way open up I like how you explain that taking an engineering lens Enables us to have more tools of building the telescopes and the and the rockets to actually get to the moon with the brain That's a really good way to put it also the tools open up more creative solutions for other people to Study the brain as well as build more tools themselves. They gain inspiration from that. So that's a great way of putting Neuroengineering specifically and in a way to to wrap that up What developing to research tools specifically? It allows you to answer questions You couldn't answer before so you can have as many questions as you want But if you don't have ways of exploring them, they're just going to be questions So really it it enables us to explore the questions. We've always wanted to so, you know in a way, it's yeah, it's Is very important to help us understand things and to me fundamentally There's no point intervening until we understand and a lot of time we're looking for Magic bullets and things of that form and they're they're riskier as as things get more and more complicated We're working with higher dimensions higher dimensional data sets the brain just too complex to just find one thing so we need to To really understand its complexity and that requires more complex tools billions of neurons Trillions of connections and millions of molecules in every neuron Yeah, that's crazy as thousands millions. Yeah, I don't know how many molecules are in each, but yeah But that's just yeah, that's crazy that there's a lot going yeah there's so much going on and then To be able to make the tools that make it better for us to do understand ourselves understand others understand human behavior and then also Understand how to cure the diseases that plague so many of us dementia etc Teach us about your fascination with making the tools that is gonna help with curing disease and What because you were telling me earlier you're like, what are we into put a wire on every neuron? So what are you thinking is is the way that we tackle this so so I think sometimes There are kind of limits to our imagination and I feel like right now. This is the best we can do given what's available to us Because sometimes when I look further out it it feels like There's something better always and I think it's about building what we can now seeing its flaws and Making them obsolete and moving forward. So in some ways a Lot of the technologies being developed in the space are not ready for humans We have bigger brains. We have more neurons that will require scaling of some form and finding ways that are less invasive if we decide that we want to Start directly connecting things with the skull. I think elements that I think you know physicists might find ways of really developing new forms of Let's say penetrating the skull and stimulating or inhibiting neurons think about you know Think about the first part is understanding the brain is understanding the notes to a piano to a song and Then that we need to develop the fingers to go back in and play them So if you have a diseased brain and a healthy brain We want to know the difference in how the brain is computing and then Understanding is literally one part the next part is reintroducing those computations artificially to bring us back to a Normal state of how the brain should be operating interesting the reintroduction of what the degeneration has caused in a computational way Yeah, with like with an excitatory. Yes, and so we're which we're trying to figure out what the fingers how to make these fingers to play Those notes again. Yeah, so if you if you have Alzheimer's and you've you forgot your memories We technically need to know what memory is where they stored. How are they stored? so we know how to intervene and Reupload your memories hypothetically so it's it's really this interplay of right now We are in the phase of we need to understand What's happening at least that's my opinion and then that will lead to a Sense of where can we intervene and then we would develop intervention methods for that? Okay, so but that's much lot more long term. I really liked how you discuss the importance of understanding how the brain works as This most important principle because otherwise it almost seems as though everything else that we're doing is a little bit not educated enough of a guess of an understanding pre-tackling neurodegeneration or pre-tackling Stimulation etc. I mean there are no cures for neurological disorders disorders zero Clinical trials are being shut down Pharma companies are spending billions of dollars. Nothing is working Because we're trying to find simple solutions for complex problems which I think is important, but you know, it's coming from a place where We're studying let's say animals and we're trying to bring it to humans and our brains are different I mean we're much we're just different than than than a mouse Which is you know what scientists study? Because that's what's available and then when things move up to to humans Things start to break down when it comes to the brain. We've been able to you know develop Ways of treating infection and cancer, but neurological disorder We're finding of a hard time and mainly because we don't understand the brain and Try and understand it is very complex as as I just kind of give you a sense of that and you know This is all under the assumption that we're again. I Sometimes I like to play devil's advocate where the brain is also inside of a body I mean there is the rest of the body like we are part of a system So the generation can let's you know the disease could be caused by Something else my behavior could be caused by the adrenaline being pumped from another part of my body so like I think But you know science is attempting to just find all the pieces and we will integrate it together at some point But right now the the brain is so unknown that we just need to chip away at it and see what comes from it I think something that you and I were talking about right before the interview was that there are non technological interventions that can augment the our health to such a degree where Potentially we don't even die from the onset of cancer. We don't die from the onset of Alzheimer's But maybe something else, but so how do we do that in a non technological? yeah, so I think sometimes science is an attempt at Generalization so the ability to study something and apply it to mass population And in you know in a way each human is just special. I mean our genetic makeups our lives You know where we are our epigenome, you know, no one might ever live the same life I had eat the same food. I've had gone so like what is inside my body is so complex So sometimes, you know science science is attempting to do that, but at the same time we also need to find ways to Take preventative measures, you know, I mean Some some people might have bad habits in a way like I don't want to end Go here, but there are financial structures that lead us sometimes with the momentum of developing You know, sometimes there's a momentum financial incentive to do science and and Develop medications, and I think it should happen, but I also think that if our if we want to solve the problem, you know, there's also ways that we can Minimize health risks whatever that whatever that is. This is really thinking outside the box Right now. It's we're stuck with the model of ah the pharmaceuticals ah the trials ah, but really the Way that we behave in a day-to-day basis if we're more meditative we're less stressful Yeah, eat better and exercise more and don't smoke. Yeah, we can live longer Yeah, and prevent the onset of some of these yeah physiological issues. Yeah, and yeah, so that's that's why I think In addition to science people should really try and become more in tune with themselves I mean what once you go to an end of one which is one person. I mean, there's no more statistics, so Whatever it takes to make you feel good. It can be subjective You can be experimental with yourself, and I mean that just like figure out what works for you What makes you feel good? What can you eat that makes you feel good? What you know and how much does your mind play a role over your body? So like these are things that that should be be be done in parallel and complimentary I You know I I think Science has done amazing things and it will continue to but I think it's important that we also You know there's something that Like I just mentioned the scale of the brain when you reduce Each individual to all these molecules and all these neurons it just gets really hard to figure out like What's happening for each in the like for me to understand who you are? I would need to technically have your brain analyze your brain and your environment Yeah, like what are you eating every day? Who you thought like there's your brain takes an inputs It takes in stimuli so like it is not separate from your environment so for me to really understand you I would have to follow you your whole life and You'd have to have wearables. I would have to take your blood. You know, it's just it gets a little ridiculous I know we're moving towards a data-driven world But you know, how much resolution do we need? How big of a data set do we need and you know, you it's like You need to know everything that's happening around you. So it becomes like you have to almost like How are you gonna do that for each person for over over their lifetime? So like to 100% understand another person you would need every single one of their sensory inputs They've had throughout their entire life and even prior to that. Yeah. Yeah So this is where things break down for me sometimes when I look far into the future I think it's okay to explore the unknown because it hasn't been done and I think you know This is how we we push the limits of humanity is just doing what we know is within the bounds of our imagination right now Hitting that wall breaking through it and thinking of something better But right now, you know, I could see the walls with a reductionist mentality, which is what science is attempting It's done a really good job And helping us build things and get to the moon But as we get to biological systems, it's noisy. It's very there's a lot of statistics a lot of chance a lot of noise it's just It gets scary engine engineers are in physicists and mathematicians are entering this space because it's It's a challenge and they're looking for a challenge Yeah, and the biggest we're scared. Yeah, we're scared and excited at least I am to get a handle on this and I think we need to be open-minded and humble to what the limits are because I think Sometimes we come in with this is I came in, you know, I'm halfway through my PhD program Really feeling like this is going to solve everything And I still think it should be pursued But I also think we should be looking for for other ways like we had touched on the individual And you know again science is assuming that math and physics are real. I mean, that's the foundation of it We invented numbers You know one and two the idea that we can separate things that things are causal and interact But like how I just said the environment and the brain are intertwined So really is there me and the environment or is there is it all like one wine? Yeah, so that's when it gets weird like what what do I do? I'm creating this separate artificial separation to study it and then to intervene artificially and It works, but sometimes it gets it starts to break down a bit and it's it's it's it's not easy to talk about this Because this is what our what I like built on. I like this this approach of it's a it's a it's a very curious It's a philosophical. It's a it's a it's an approach that Does not separate the brain from the environment to such a degree that they are so coupled in this this realm of oneness that we could we could go as far as to say that the the cities that we live in are Potentially Causing a certain percentage of the neuro degeneration that we experience distress that we take on from the 9 to 5 grinds that we're on yeah the Even this couch here. Is this really the most optimal way for our bodies to be sitting? Yeah, while we're having a conversation. No, yeah, there's a much more optimal way for our bodies to be positioned Yeah, so in a way like you I you see where I'm coming from and we're you know people People in the public health space are trying to understand things that like a more global perspective macro scale like our behaviors What do we buy? Where are we going? But yeah, end of the day in a weird way all we have is ourselves and the only thing monitoring ourselves each moment Is our intuition and we can try and help use Wearables and tools to bring those things to our awareness to help us make sense of what we want to do What choices we want to make because that you know you are your own authority But you know we we're trying to to make sense of it and it's important and yes, we should explore the things So one besides disease again, but this also will tie to the solution is imagine that we're all perfectly healthy and I'm gonna take this space and There's something more than that. I think I still think we there might be problems if all disease is cured I think there's something about finding our role where we are in each moment that Causes problems to our relationships with ourselves. Yeah meaning finding meaning. Yeah, and I think things eventually also That's something we need to address. I think we get lost and the rationale I think for a while like I was driven by science because of out of curiosity then when you start really thinking about Things like this meaning things break down and it becomes subjective to everyone And when you try to really create an objective reality for everyone It starts putting people in a box and I think it kind of Even if you're perfectly healthy might not feel like you want to fit in that in that system of how things should work So, yeah, like I do feel like it's hard to tell exactly that could cause stress that could Suppress your immune system that might lead to riskier behaviors and all these other diseases like it could tie into just like this Existential I could literally sit here and do stress in my body if I wanted to like, you know I mean I could sit here and worry if I really kind of am thinking about my place in Reality so like yeah, I do I do think What people think of themselves in the relation to other killing yourself faster if you're doing with your mind Yeah, and in an interesting way. Yeah, so we need to be Conscious of how we make ourselves feel You know, it's very easy to fall into a rut and not feel good about yourself I mean, it's just part of human nature and sometimes we need to catch ourselves and know that it does a benefit us in any way to Do that you'll start feeling it in your body I mean, that's a sign that you should try and think better thoughts, but then it's like, ah, we might feel that negativity is We need to think because you might find yourself in a negative loop because you're thinking and you want to find the solution But sometimes it's just again like I had said about my life being hopeful that just that attitude shift might be enough for you to see things differently and actually Be healthier and feel like you can make the right choices. So It gets hard, you know, it gets hard It's like if you do science from a place of fear versus, you know, passion and love and hope You know, you're gonna build two different things. You're gonna build cures or weapons So like it does come down to fundamentally like how we feel about ourselves and it will come down to that I think for a lot of things too So yeah, think things around us are tools and it's comes down to how we feel about ourselves That's how we're using great power comes great responsibility type stuff Alexi, I think this is probably the first time that I'm really realizing how much we don't think about the Environment that we've built around the human bodies Yeah, yeah, and what that this the cyclical feedback that we have between the body and the environment on a moment-to-moment basis And I love thinking about it that way and Also, I want to say this, you know, you've also helped me realize that We're we have we're using child's play with brain Technology right now. We're EEG and fMRI and even Trying to put electrodes into Even into our brain To try and understand the complexity of it. It's child's play and so Eventually we'll get to a new frontier in neuro technology, right? You're gonna make new tools in neuro engineering. It's gonna be fantastic agreed and it's gonna do great work But in the meanwhile, yeah I think thinking outside of the box in terms of what are and what's going on in our environment and all that kind Of stuff. It's a great way to do it in a you use use this word A non-technological intervention into health. Yeah, so in a way, I mean words are words, you know, they're Anything can be a technology even a toothpick. So like in a way, it's just maybe thinking about Because when when I studied economics, I think about systemic behaviors, how do we operate collectively and Yeah Instead of yes and not taking this reduction in approach if There are studies showing that if a mouse is addicted to cocaine If you put them in an environment with toys that they they they stop taking the cocaine their addictions go away You can think about our world and our habits just come down to there. We're just not happy where we are Yeah, and I feel that sometimes that if we're in a place where So one thing is like loving yourself, but also feeling that people support you community is super important culture music in the humanities things that Lift us up in ways that science can't measure. It's just You can just enter another state and your outlook and your health is benefited by that. It's very systemic It's very holistic. Yeah, and you know to segue I have thought of ways like instead of Trying to really pick at each cell and molecule in the body. What if we built a new city had another renaissance Got rid of things we don't want to do anymore Let's say with robots If we can fully automate the things that we don't want to do anymore Give people meaning in their lives by giving them the freedom to do what they want when they want and express it without being bound maybe by things that they need to do yes, you know and We should like we need to thrive and like and like I said like it goes beyond if we are all healthy It just comes down to what do we do? what it like we have one life at least we're told and It's possible that we could develop ways and lifestyles to live forever Let's say we do live forever. What are we gonna do each day? You know, are we gonna work every day? Are we gonna just do things for other people or we're gonna do things for ourselves? So it comes down to again this human-centric idea of like How do we change with our society? Do we start from scratch? Do I just you know go to the desert get get there at the group of people and just like start a new society? You know, I do think about these things How can I be myself? How what if you know? I think about the the concept of language like what if I was born into a world and No one taught me math or English or what the other languages. I know. Yeah, how would I make sense of my environment? Yeah, would it benefit me more to just come up with? The explanations myself without trying to fit in fit into words and numbers. It's radical. It requires you to be I think about a lot. Yeah, I even go as far as to think of Not not teaching language to a child and keeping them in an environment I know that that's some radical stuff because but you can get the police Structure in a way you use structure It brings us to our feet, but then it's also important that we break away because what yeah We have to explore creatively. Yeah, the construct we live in within language because words are very loaded. Yeah Sometimes it's about breaking away from that and look at finding new ways. How do you find new ways to think, you know, I Yes, it's yeah, it's hard and that it somehow comes from you And if you're original and you're you're coming up with an idea that no one has came up with before You feel out of place. You feel like you're crazy You feel like it's wrong because you need everyone else to agree But it has to come from a place of originality first. So how do you trust that? You know, how do you trust yourself? And that's what I mean where it's about this freedom of having an environment where you can bring out new Ideals and not feel judged or even judge yourself And I think that's a recipe for innovation and creativity and longevity things of that form. Yeah, is our yeah We spend so much money on health and That's preventative and so yeah, it's interesting thinking about if the Basic physiological needs are met and then the creative flourishing is able to happen for Every human how much money would we actually be spending on? healthcare at that point and then also on the On the time side of things I don't know if would how fast would we move towards our self-actualization and self-transcendence if we Weren't bounded by 80 years of time So the ideas I've toyed around with which seemed very difficult to implement was if there were a city What would happen if we didn't have time or age? So I don't have to sit here and feel bad about how old I am and that I'm getting older or that I have a Meeting like is there a new way of operating outside of what we are interested in efficiency and productivity and optimize me What are we optimizing towards like people? It's literally it's productivity for the economy It's a momentum that is taking place that is not even considering the individuals themselves and we're losing ourselves in that Yeah, and not paying attention to You know it's a good way to put it Yeah, so in in a way like we want the numbers for the structure. Can you have a city that operates without numbers and money? I think things like Cryptocurrency are attempting to decentralize finance and empower people and things of that form so Yeah, I think We need to question what our aims are what are the aims of institutions? And it really comes out to each individual in the institution Are you trying to make money and be productive or you're trying to feel good? Because if you're ignoring that then you're just creating a beast that you don't care about and everyone's creating it together And they don't want to be there So it's like we have to be careful and and again it comes down to Response being it's responsible as an individual, but not everyone It's it's hard to leave the momentum. I mean we're all part of something So that's why it sometimes it takes someone brave enough to break away and then bring a group of people together I mean, it's just it's just that's how it works. I agree. There's eight billion of us that are afraid. Yeah There's the eight billion of us are in the rat race and it's a We're moving in the direction of economics and GDP and it's not about In many ways, it's not prioritizing human flourishing human creativity Like you said, what would a city look like these are very fundamental questions that we need Children and adolescents and even adults exploring on a more frequent basis. What would it look like to have? Be born where you're not picking up numbers and and language right away But that you're building up a different way of modeling the world What would it look like if there was no time or money or don't feel bad about your age all these types of things? How would a city like that work where the human is? Prioritized their health their happiness their meaning all those things are prioritized. I love these thought experiments And it does feel like yeah, we would not have as much of The stress on our bodies that causes our deterioration as quickly Yeah, and you know it it comes down to I like to say that words or spells I mean you you could you could label something and you you have literally created it with that label So we need to pay attention to When we look at an object or an experience We are in a way defining it, but we were also given that definition How can we do it in a way that is realistic and still maintain structures and allows us to you know move towards something that where The words you use are just better all the time, you know, like like for example in the English language people say I might say I am angry Other languages people say I have anger So just that change really affects the relationship. I have with the word like I have it means is temporary Yes, so like it's just it's not me. It's just passing. So like In a way, you know, I'm I can't fly right now But technically I would like to say I can't fly just yet. Yeah, so again like it It's just about how far can you remove the limits of what's possible? Yeah, I would I like to think that anything is possible I can't prove that right now, but if you could trust that Then you can do things that we couldn't do before and if you just simply look at history and where we are We've already proved that we could do anything, but we forget somehow and It you know, it's it's kind of scary to take a leap of faith and feel like you can do something No one's done, but that's why it's important to just fundamentally be driven by that curiosity because You have to take that chance and sometimes for me for me to take that chance I just tell myself anything's possible because I don't want to do it if it's not gonna work I'm not interested in failing, you know, yeah But like I'll fail when it comes down to it if it comes down to it But so far it's all it's done is guide me. So again reusing these words and what are we? Yeah, that was really well said is that I have anger or what it you know We're not flying yet. You know these you yeah words are spells words are creation thought is creation So that's a really important point and also just relying back to the rat race Hierarchical 8 billion of us in the machine It it doesn't make sense think about when we look at something like a Satoshi Nakamoto whatever it that is that it was literally a disconnect Making something completely new integrating that back in yeah, so it's like get out of the 8 billion rat race hierarchy Plug out make something that Obsolete yeah, the old way of thinking in the hierarchy and Then make it so attractive that it becomes the mental map that gets uploaded to all people's code Yeah, yeah, and so what would that you know? So I like the I think store storytelling is a very powerful tool and In a way for all I know our lives our collective stories that we put our eggs in that basket and we believe in it and It feels very real when you're born into it And if you start to feel like there has to be a better story out there, but it's not real Sometimes a question. Why does my brain even allow me to have that thoughts that aren't real? Why can I imagine myself riding a dragon over the sunset like yeah? That sounds like a waste of time evolutionarily But I think we allow ourselves to stretch that limit just to bring us into possibility and to move us somewhere already space yeah, and the the more convinced you are of your thoughts and You get enough people to want that and get together and things feel like there is a Possibility then you make it a possibility collectively, so I think there is Yeah, this is this is nuts. There's almost there's almost a a The the the burden of genius that people take on is not only related to the amount of Time and relentless work that they put on being the first ones to make an advancement for the rest of civilization We can ride the Dragon over the sunset we can we can ride There's there's a certain like with this burden of genius. There is a certain amount of Creativity outside the original code that you have to realize and then you're imagining it The flying the dragon over the Sunsets may be a little bit further out Yeah, then maybe making a new neuro engineering tool. Yeah, right and so then it's up to you then to be able to Put together the ability to do so this again This brings us again back to the rat in the cage if we're all trapped in the economic hierarchy of civilization Think about the amount of Play structures that we have How well is this you can literally tell the difference a rat in a cage without any Two toys and the rat in a cage with toys has significant further neuronal development and infrastructure that's built out So why not then? be able to build a city build a built environment that radically enables are The most flourished neural infrastructure and creativity possible It seems as though us rats as humans in this hierarchy are not as Able to be maximally flourished as possible. So what I'll say is that it comes down. It's a confidence game I think we don't realize how much power we have You know in a way we're slaves of our mind and you know we We we're stuck in a pattern because that's that's how things are. I'm just I'm used to being in my body and walking I've never tried to fly. I don't think I can fly But for me to go from zero to one to make something I have to in a way pick a side Like for me to say anything is possible. I have to pick that or else if I don't say that Then every choice I make is a logistical one. I can only do things within the realm of what is possible But that's boring because it leaves me to like everything's already here. What do I do? I just sit on my couch and watch TV like how do I go from consumer to creator? How do I make something that doesn't exist? So it requires you to just again just For me, it's just I'm it's very recent that I'm just trying to adopt this attitude and it comes from a place of just feeling like there's nowhere else to go except Bringing what's in your mind out there and to trust that somehow your imaginations can happen And when you just put yourself out there You'll be surprised that everyone a lot of people might have the same thoughts of you And you build a team and you get together and you share your vision and you share a dream And I think for a very long time. I I didn't allow myself to dream I just kind of felt like everything is the way it is and I need to work within those bounds and Until I start really enjoying Thinking about the way things are I become impatient where I'm at and I need to Do what doesn't exist just to test that I can do anything So it's just simply getting caught in that process of proving the power that we each have to ourselves. I Think is our ultimate goal is just unraveling the human potential and seeing that we can do that And I think that's where bliss comes from and motivation in anything that drives us And that's why that's why I think what we consider challenges our problems are important. I think I Think they help us in a way like love ourselves more by over Overcoming these these these obstacles that in a way we've placed ourselves But we were unaware of them and that's fine. We just need to realize that there's something we can do about it You know, it's hard, you know in a way I will do many things that I feel are so real and it's hard to question them But it just comes down to like in a way being fed up The build environment that we made for the pursuit of meaning and purpose and self actualization of fulfillment The basic physiological needs to be met is just not to the degree that it could be in order to make it easier for people to Pursue exactly what you're talking about because when you wake up in the morning You're much less likely to want to radically change the code of civilization Then you are currently to get your physiological needs met and keep playing in the game That's it And we need more role models to step outside of the game write the new codes Bring them back into the game or even just draw new people out of the game into the new game as well So it's almost like building another Game Simulation within yeah within the structure. That's exactly it there. There are bubbles of reality, which you know We can call culture Yeah, and it comes down to one thing you for the people out there you can either You might either agree a disagree with the statement that anything is possible I I I still Have confidence issues with that But it comes down to putting that to the test because if you can materialize anything in your mind That'd be the most beautiful thing you would know what you're capable of and then you would just do that every day Yes, it just comes down to like self experimentation. Just try try something small. That's right start going to the gym You didn't think you could lift this now you can lift that you didn't think I mean in a PhD in a way in a way like we're we're trying to Introduce knowledge to what we think or like I I thought that we knew everything already And so I started doing research and for me to come in and be like I have to lay the foundations of knowledge It's weird. It feels like I'm bending the laws of nature It's like it's hard to know where to go or where to look So it's so like sometimes it's just You know Whatever you want to see take yourself there take that risks and If it doesn't take you anywhere then you'll have your answer but more times than not you'll realize that it opens and it It doesn't end like you might explore something impossible and start to see that It's actually leading you to something you might be afraid that it leads you astray But even then What's the point of life if you're not even enjoying being astray because it's probably what our whole lives might feel like It's about it's like enjoying that chase too. Obviously, you know, we need to be stable and make money and things of that form But yeah, it's about challenging ourselves for sure Even that just that ending part that we need to be stable We need to be you know, that's really what causes people to stay in the hierarchy to stay in the culture yes a simulation of the bubble because It's safer. It's safer to be in the game that you know And it's way harder to leave the game right new code Yeah, and and obsolete the old code either augment it in the original bubble or build your new bubble Yeah, and bring people to it. I think thinking about it that way Is so damn important and it's in many ways what? What I'm trying to piece together. Yeah right now with this ultimate synthesis and it's the hardest thing I've ever done But at the same time, I know that it's gonna be the most rewarding one of the things that I'm learning about it And you know, I'm interested to hear your perspective about it Is that I make more progress towards the ultimate synthesis when I Disconnect from my cell phone when I disconnect from the internet from my laptop When I disconnect from those things and I just sit like if I have a spare 15 minutes in between interviews at 30 like I'm not gonna I won't do emails or texts or calls or Definitely not social media. Definitely not social media and I'll and I'll just and I'll just sit here and when I do that it's very fascinating what silence Can do for What's going on within the mind at developing further developing out the creative thinking processes? So what do you think what role do you think disconnecting from the existing culture? Plays in the development of the new maps so the way I view it is that There's you can be you can be like a recluse and just not be in society But you need context so it's it's not about what you consume, but it's your relationship with what you're consuming and sometimes let's say I'm on social media and I might you know look at someone's little life that might be that it might appear better than mine. I could sit there and Constantly attack myself by feeling that way or use that to propel me and inspire me towards something I would like to be and If I believe that I could do anything then all that person is doing is bringing to my awareness the things I want in my life It only hurts when I feel like it's out of my reach and that's fundamentally why anything causes us suffering is that I Want that and cannot have it, you know, so it's it's really about framing Feeling the confidence and power that you can do those things and not placing those limits Make them possible possible. Yes, but if you're in a position where the consumption is not benefiting you it's not serving you It's not making you feel good. You just have to notice that and just Not know that you not want to do that, but sometimes you're just caught in the loop You don't know any better. You feel like it's what needs to happen But again, these are habits that you might not know But you know if you tie yourself yourself out and feel enough pain and stress you will literally literally like Exhaust yourself to the point where you you'll have to take a nap and not look at your phone So like really it's like we're in the river flowing downstream But really we're swimming upstream and we think we're going upstream and once your arms get tired It just carries you so it's like you just with the stillness and be you know being quiet There's a part of you that already knows where you need to go, but you're just kind of your mind is chattering So it's it's it's in a weird way. There's there's a part of you that knows you better than you do right now And it comes down to what does it mean to listen to yourself? I don't know if I can you know, we don't have the the Hardcore technologies to do that now, but all we have is like our That whatever that is I know meditation is attempting to do that But we have all we have different ways of entering meditative states, you know Like for example like some I don't like doing the dishes, but sometimes I do it takes attention away from my mind I'm just feeling the plate feeling the water Whatever it takes for you to immerse in what you're doing and just stop like beating yourself up Yeah, is what it takes. Yeah get in the ultimate flow. Yeah, I have so many other questions But we'll have to do another round Preferably that the recording studio in SF because there's still so much to unpack about Making new code To obsolete the old code. Yeah, I'm talking about the old code I really like that out of box thinking perspective and also I like how you apply that to Brain technology and neuro engineering and this applies to blockchain and cryptocurrency and biotech and AI and robotics and spirituality and implies applies to every single economics every field Needs the out-of-box thinkers that have a fresh perspective On asking the questions of why is a banana yellow and why can't I I want a purple banana? I why can't purple banana? Why can't I ride on the dragon over the sunset? Well, actually you can it's just gonna take us a couple more decades Yeah, and you'll be able to and yet to wrap that up and you know, we should stay in touch in regards to that It comes down to simply being radically honest. What do I want? I'll worry about how I'll get it later It's just being honest with what do I want because most of the time it's what can I get, you know, so that just It leaves you limited to what your eyes can see but we can make things so and I think if people could start to Shift in that way and we can get together and just talk about what do we want? Really make that the parameter. Don't worry about the cost I mean we should costs and things like that come later, but it's like I Would like let's say imagine To have the simplest cure to cancer, you know, like maybe that maybe it's out there Like it's just to give us the opportunity to explore Explore things that might not seem feasible right now Because in a way we stand on the shoulders of giants, but We need to ask the what the foundations are and whether we could You know rise from the ashes burn it down and do something else And when is that when when will that happen doesn't need to happen, you know as constant discussion? Yeah, yeah, I'm So excited to talk about new codes Yeah, and we're in a simulation and we are the programmers of our simulation That's the literally the question on the way out. So you the question is are we in a simulation? So I I personally don't like using that word because just why and what you'd prefer. Yeah, so I think that When people say we're in a simulation, they think it's that there's like legitimate numbers and code that are like We're just like in a game that we can mathematically define I think it's just it's it's way beyond what we can describe right now In a way if we want to take a neuroscience perspectives our mind is generating the reality in front of us What is beyond our mind and eyes is? Another thing, you know either there the objects are actually there or we are collectively Generating as we go. There is there may be no object. It's just simply us Making what we see in front of our eyes like it's hard to tell We're where the power rendering and hallucination. Yeah, and technically that's what it is it comes down to How do we program it? Can we program it? If so, what are we going to program if I told you you could do that? It's like what I can what the game? Yeah, what do I want? Yeah, how do I want to help others? We don't even but even then we don't even allow ourselves to think about that too so important So it's a combination of whether we're in a simulation or not like even if we aren't if we have all the power We don't even ask those questions if we aren't and this is all we have we could still do something about it You know, what's the source code? I Think we are an extension of something like I don't I don't think there's more beyond that I mean, let's ask you about this it is on the 3d reality Do we come into these earth suits into the playground? So there's two ways to go about this either we can all come up with the story and that would be the real answer So I sometimes I I can't tell whether that There is something making this happening or it's up to us to Come up with a story that we can then Prove in a weird way like it in a way We're very biased if everything is connected we can show the connections to whatever narrative we want So that that but then it comes out to I don't really care what's causing this I'm here now and I want to have a good time. At least I want you to think about it But yeah, you know, it's we view 3d technically there should be Other dimensions. Are they controlling us? Are we puppets? Is there a feedback? Are there no dimensions? It's simply just like is We're an extension of something all together. I personally have never I don't know where I was before I was born or where I've never died I've only seen outside of my eyes. So I don't know, you know, so it's just yeah It's I think I think the beauty is the mystery and when when when there is the mystery We can we can we can create what we want in front of us at least right now We're in the 3d reality. We can build it. We're chipping away more and more. Yeah Yeah, so the I think it's important to keep this in the back of our mind because sometimes I Reached a point where I hit this existential wall And I just needed to come up with the story to keep myself going because there is no answer just yet But yeah, maybe yeah, maybe in the language and realm of science We could describe these things that's right And I I feel like sometimes if we develop let's say brain technologies to augment our brain to see different Spectrums of light to see different forms of energy then our perspective is different So we might need to augment our brain to see more dimensions to make to even to measure them So we're not we're not in a position to even address or study or ask those questions. So it's like It's a process. So yeah, but it's it's it's nice to think about it, you know I think we are in a position to ask the questions. It's more about the details aren't there Yeah, not yet. And we have to build the capacity to be able to poke at the source code And gain a better understanding of source code of the brain source code of civilization Of what is greater than us why we came here all these types of questions last question is what's the most beautiful thing in the world? awesome question I think Beauty beauty to me is novelty. So it's like It comes from an emergence of something I've never experienced before ah, you know, I think it comes from nature And I think the feeling fundamentally comes from Relatedness and connectedness with whatever I'm experiencing Sometimes it feel like feels like I'm injecting the meeting in the beauty and sometimes It's really just a little surprise, you know, sometimes and I think I Kind of equate beauty synonymously with like on wonder but also This feeling of Connectedness with anything like I could find beauty in a pebble sometimes if you look at it long enough So it's just this idea that we're here and there are things there around us that are miraculous Yeah, so yeah, and I think that question is inherently The whole point of beauty is that it's it's what's to come I what I find beautiful is riding that dragon over the sunset, you know It's like it's an experience. I may I can't I might not even imagine I might not even know it until I see it So it's it's it's a chase. So that's so that's what that's the beauty. Yeah This has been very very fun and we have done so many interviews where we talk to different leaders at the edge About the new codes that can maximize flourishing and I'm really happy that we spent a good chunk of time Talking about yeah, it's a really outside the box thinking about yeah about it, and I love that Yeah, thank you so much. Awesome. Yeah show and yeah, yeah anyone wants to build a city I don't know how but you need people. Let's get together. Let's make things happen Thanks everyone for tuning in we love you very much. Thank you so much also Go and check out the link below to Alexi's work and reach out help build this new code Let's deploy these new codes into the existing infrastructure or obsolete it make some new infrastructure and Everyone support the artists and entrepreneurs that you believe in our links are below for simulation help us out also self-help out the organizations that you believe in around the world and share more conversations like this with other people your families your friends your co-workers online and Go and build the future everyone manifest your dreams into the world. Thank you so much for tuning in We love you very much and we'll see you soon. Bye guys Damn that was that was fucking it went better than I that I thought it would and that's the stuff I wanted to touch too