 Hey folks, welcome to the podcast. Today I had a great chat with Josh Breckenfeld. He works for Lloyds of London and used to be in Washington, worked for Barack Obama, and then decided to come to the UK, change career, and yeah, really interesting to hear about his story. We talk about being authentic in the workplace, the importance of being visible, and I really hope you enjoy it. Hey, it's Lewis, welcome to the podcast. Enjoy our conversations anytime, anywhere. Cool, and we're live. Thanks for joining me. Yeah, absolutely. Sorry I didn't have you on before Leon. That's all right. I was a bit embarrassed, but I feel he's only slightly hurt, but you know, I understand he's a little bit older than I am, so you want to get him while he's still young. Exactly, exactly. Anyone much better looking. I think he would agree with that. Definitely. So we've met probably six months ago. Yeah. There we go. Yeah, it's not been long. It hasn't. But it's been really good. I wanted to get you on. You've got a great story. Yeah. Well, thank you. You're doing a lot of great stuff, and I'm a big fan. Thanks man. That's all right. So how did you end up in the UK? Well, that was totally by coincidence actually, so my husband and I were based in Washington DC, and we had both lived there for about 10 years, and at the time I was working in the United States Senate. Nice. Yeah, I've got cracking stories on that. I'm present under Obama. Yeah, yeah. So it was under Obama, and then in fact, I helped organize his first inauguration. I was a member of the joint inaugural congressional ceremony, something like that, JCCIC, that sort of put together his first inauguration. And so I was doing that, and I was going to law school at night, because I was looking for an efficient way to alienate my friends, and going to law school at night seemed like the right way to do it. So you were doing that, and you were busy boy? I was a very busy boy. And then we sort of got to this place where we're like, okay, it's been 10 years. What do we do now? And we sort of had the conversation, Andrew and I had the conversation about we should be open to whatever the next opportunity is. And literally, it was about a week after we had that conversation, Andrew got a call from his old boss saying that Andrew's a banker, saying he had started this bank, and that he wanted, he was wondering if Andrew would come and run the retail operation for it. So that was in October, and we were living here full time by January. And this was which year? So this was five years ago. Five years ago? Yeah. So it was a really, really quick turnaround. And for Andrew, it was great. He walked into this fantastic job. You know, we started getting ourselves together really quickly. For me, it was a little bit more difficult. How did you feel about upping sticks? In principle, I didn't have an issue. And in fact, I was really, really excited about it. I had studied in Scotland when I was in university for a time. And I loved the idea of moving over here. And it was a really exciting prospect. But on the flip side of that, career wise, it was pretty, I mean, it was, it was pretty much a cut, right? Because everything I'd been doing up until that point was looking for a public policy job and furthering my career. So you had to carry on in politics. Yeah, in politics and in the Senate. And maybe work for Donald Trump at some point. I mean, who could ask for anything more. But that wasn't going to happen here. And so when I got to London, it was a bit of a, did you come here with no idea about no idea and no job? So the first obstacle was when we moved here, it was actually one semester away from graduating law school. Yeah. So then the question is, do I stay behind in DC, go to school while Andrew's in London? That seems like a terrible option. So I was going to Catholic law school because I wanted to be a morally infused lawyer at Catholic law school. Catholic law school. And I am not Catholic. But I didn't have that they have religious law schools. It's not necessarily religious. They had a couple classes that you would take sort of about morality and the law. And they also had a really good public policy program as well, because they realized that people were going to law school and not necessarily the intention of becoming lawyers. So, so all that really lined up nicely for me. But what didn't line up nicely is they don't have a campus in London. And so it was a real, it was a bit of a struggle. So what I ended up doing was, this is a neat trick. So Notre Dame is another law school in the United States. And they're also affiliated with the Catholic Church. So I went to my dean and said, I need to be able to figure this out. Can you help me out? And she said, well, why don't you write me? And she said, we don't allow transfers in senior years unless it's the breaking of the marital home. And I said, well, I am a member of a marital home. However, you know, I'm married to a man. And she said, okay, this is what we're going to do. Just write me a letter and make it so you're being factually correct, but you don't need to speak about agenda at all. And just, you know, and I will know, and that works. And so she granted my transfer on that basis. I applied to Notre Dame, got in, transferred there a lot on the law campus. And my final semester has passed fail. So it was, it was, it was dreamy. But no job prospect after that. American law. Yeah, because I was an American lawyer. And then everyone was sort of like, Oh, you can just convert. And it's, it's actually not that easy to get, to convert to a solicitors or even a barristers requires more study and more testing. And at that point, you know, I'd been in law school for four years and just taking the bar exam, I was kind of done with, with studying for a while. So I can't remember what the connection was. I think there was somebody in my, you know, there was an alumni from Notre Dame who knew somebody that worked in this law firm. And it was, it was literally a Hail Mary pass. So I went and worked with them for a time, helping them draft a US UK tax law treatise, which is about as interesting as it sounds. And for someone that never took tax law, like didn't appreciate it like it at all. It was, it was awful, but it was awful in a way that allowed me to motivate myself to get out there and do something else. And you had, you've got a European passport? Not yet. So we're residents of the UK. So you got, so your husband got a visa? Yeah. So this is, that's right. So Andrew's visa. And this was also interesting because a lot of this seems to be hinging on the fact that I'm married, but Andrew got a visa. And because I was his spouse, I was entitled to a spousal visa. And that was all happening before gay marriage was legal in the UK. So what was interesting was that the UK recognized a right in us that they had yet to afford. Interesting. And this is 2005. Yeah, I think that's right. Yeah. It was about that time. So, so anyway, I was, I was working at this law firm writing this book and hating every minute of it. And I was speaking to about half a dozen recruiters to be fair because I was trying to figure out a way that my public policy background would give me an entrance into some industry. And I wasn't particularly focused about it. And I thought that was probably the right thing to do because I thought if I'd, if I'd focused too hard, I would have been unsatisfied for a long time. And actually the recruiter that picked up the phone first was one that was working in the communications. And I had done some press work very lightly on the hill, you know, I'd written testimony for senators and staff and stuff like that. So I had a bit of press background. And there was a job opening at Lloyds of London, which was a strategy slash comms role, but it was also very low level. I mean, it was basically first rung in the ladder. And yeah, do you ever heard of Lloyds of London? I had heard of it, but I'd be lying if I said I knew what it was at the point of contact. So when they said Lloyds, you thought it was a bank? No, I knew it wasn't a bank, but I didn't know what it was to be fair. And I thought it was an insurance company and it's not, it's neither of those things. So the first thing that I did was spend a lot of time reading about it before the interview. I was super nervous. And it's funny because, you know, in my recruiter and I were talking about this, apparently it was a really big deal that I was moving into a new sector, you know, at this stage in my career. I mean, I'm not as old as Leon, but I'm also not in my early 20s either. So I remember like every interview I went to, we spent half of the interview talking about why I wanted to pursue this job, why I wanted to leave. It's hard to make sexist. Completely. And I was unprepared for that. I was completely unprepared for that conversation and the veracity with which people would judge my character and my CV, based on the fact that I was leaving an industry. You also think, why are you leaving? Are you not doing well? Yeah, exactly. There's a bit of a skepticism. And then it plays forward. Like, are you going to do that to us? Like, if we invest time and energy in hiring you in this very low level job, are you going to upstix and leave? Actually, if something better comes along. So I had to spend a lot of time convincing people that I do have stay in power. You know, I worked for almost nine years on the Hill. So, you know, I could have left it there. And then I would send no desire to like switch to UK politics. No. No, because it wasn't, to be fair, my time when I left the Hill, I was really ready to go just about cold turkey in terms of not following it, not doing anything. And when I got over here, it's not as similar as some people would make it out. And it would have required a lot more of retrenching. And I just, I wasn't, my heart just wasn't in it. Yeah, yeah. Do you know what I mean? I know that sounds cheesy, but it just wasn't in it. It's nice to have a change. Yeah. And I thought, you know, it's good to pivot. We're starting a new life here. Let's give it a solid go. But yeah, it certainly wasn't easy. So was the hardest thing actually convincing people? Yeah, I think so. I genuinely want a new career here. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. And that my skill set, and this is the other interesting thing, I had to have a lot of conversations with people about, well, no, I've not technically done that technical thing, but I have a skill set that would have let me rise to that. So yes, I will have to read up on insurance and get to terms with the industry and learn some subject matter expertise. But the general skills that you need to do this job, I have them. Just applied in a completely different field. It's interesting, because that's probably harder to convince. It's almost maybe harder for the interviewer to take a shot on you than it would be for you to transition into these roles. Because it's quite rare that people give someone a chance. Yeah. And I mean, I give full credit for them taking the chance on me. Because, and then there was also this conversation of, well, this is a really low level job. You've had higher up jobs. Are you just going to sit in this for six months and leave? And what I told them, and I meant it, and I think five years later, I'm still with Lloyd's, I think it's a testament to the fact that when I apply myself to something, I want to learn as much as I can. I want to exhibit curiosity, and I want to be rewarded by promoted up when I receive the skill set that's necessary to do that. And they believe me. Great. Well, you're obviously very competent on your job. Have you found that working in the UK or London specifically, I guess, has been a big transition? Yes. And that was, I mean, we were, I think I was very naive in how easy it would be to come over here and work, you know, both in terms of how the workplace is structured, a workplace ethos. All of that is completely different. There's a work-life balance, which is very different here than what I was used to. So in America, you know, it's always been my experience, and everyone has their own experiences, but it's always been my experience that the individual is really encouraged to achieve well, you know, go through goals, really smash targets, you know, and lead in that way. And what I found working here is that it is a much more team effort, right? So, and I use the word effort because oftentimes people are rewarded based solely on the effort they put to a project, whether or not the project actually succeeds is almost a secondary point. Whereas in the States, it's all about the result. However you need to get there, get there. And here, you know, it's about talking to stakeholders and making sure that the team feels comfortable with what we're doing and adjusting our strategy appropriately to ultimately reach the goal. And I don't think, you know, there are definitely benefits to both and there are definitely detriments to both. There's points of frustration with each. But I was blithely unaware of that coming over here. I love them because you look at America and the way Americans work and they're very positive, happy to chat, you know, public speaking is often really good. In the UK, it's a little bit embarrassing to promote yourself. People tend not to do it. The team thing's interesting because again, you look at America and you feel like it's all a, yeah, you know, you were saying that, but it's here, it's not like that. No. So it's really interesting. I think we could do here, we could do a lot with. Yeah. And to be fair, both countries could take a little bit of the others' model. Yeah. I mean, I remember when I first came here and I did a Myers-Briggs test, which is first. And by the way, I've done one just about every single year that I've been here because, you know, some sort of strategy group always wants to know. And I remember speaking to the guy afterwards and just being very candid about strengths and weaknesses. And it was the first time that I was really aware that as an American, I am trained to, you know, be louder, like vocally louder and, you know, and that I really needed to temper that. And so. They interpret too much. No. And I try not to. I try to temper it in the way that it becomes more. Oh, wow. That's some serious thunder. That's some serious thunder. Yeah. I try to temper it in a way that makes me more receptive to be heard by a larger group of people without losing my authenticity. Yeah. So so I accept that you make adjustments. And you should. You should be refining yourself as you go through a work career. And that's one of the ones that I've always tried to try to focus on. I don't know. You probably speak to the people around me. It's like, no, he's just. Well, I mean, it's great. And you've obviously done well because you were recognized in the in the FTE and outstanding top 50. Unbelievable. Future leaders. Unbelievable. It's great. And any five years being here? Yeah. And only five years being here. And it was it was great. But it was also really scary for me. And I tell people this fairly openly. You know, I in my job now, I look after 10 companies that operate in the market from their business perspective, making sure that they're doing what they're supposed to be doing and making sure that Lloyd's is being clear with our messages and all that sort of stuff. So it requires a lot of communication. And most of that is with the C suites of these companies and with Lloyd's. And, you know, I was sort of looking at myself before this FT list came out and just realizing I'm probably only out like to seven of those. All right. You know, where I talk about my husband, you know, just as you and I are talking. And then the others, I don't do that. I always keep it very vague. Which is because you haven't got into that personal. Yeah. And well, because I just haven't gotten something from them, that tells me it's safe to be myself. And so this FT list was a bit of a scary thing. Because I was like, well, if any of these people read the Financial Times, they're going to know. You know, and in hindsight, I was really. But you gave your permission to be included. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Because it's absolutely the right thing. Yeah, it's the right thing to do for me. But it's also the right thing to do for anybody that is reading that list and looking for visible role models in this industry. Absolutely. I feel very strongly about that. I mean, we at Lloyd's, we've really tried to make great strides and be invisible. But you know, we did a survey in 2017 that said half of our employees who are out still don't feel comfortable being fully out at work. And that was that was something that really resonated with me that says, as much as we're doing, we still have to do more to make people. Is that because the environment isn't like friendly or just it's your own personal? It's I mean, for me, it's a combination of the two, right? Like either the the environment is very neutral. And I just can't pick up a I can't pick up a positive. So I was speaking about this the other day with somebody. I think most people, when you ask them, you know, you're taking for a cup of coffee or whatever. And they'll say, you know, I've just got to be honest with you. I think everybody should be themselves. It doesn't matter to me. I'm very, you know, I just don't even consider it, which is great, right? Because as a starting point, it's a great thing. But my challenge back was, well, how would I know that about you? If other than me sitting down and having a cup of coffee with you, what are you doing? Yes, like, what are you doing? And what are you saying? What are you not saying when you're interacting with people to give them that visual cue? Because I fully admit, you know, for those three businesses that I'm not particularly out to, it's in my head. It's not because I've heard something terrible at their water cooler. They've got bunting up that says no gaze allowed. I mean, this is this is totally a construct that is in my head, but it's based on past experiences where being out and being presented to somebody who wasn't particularly happy about that is a very uncomfortable thing. And so I, you know, I live my life not to replicate those moments. No, no, it's great. It's great. It's great. So it was a big moment then. It was such a, yeah, it was such a big moment. And I didn't, I didn't fully appreciate it because work was just going nuts and all and everything. And then How'd it work? So someone said, I want to pay forward. Yeah. So, um, so I was nominated by two people, actually, one of my co-workers, Jane Adams, who's amazing. And then the other one is my boss, John Hancock. So I don't, I don't know if they conspired together if they did it independently. Oh, okay. But, uh, but yeah, both of them put me forward. Amazing. And then I found out actually when we were in Mexico a few weeks ago, before the list came out that, that I'd won or that I'd been named on it. Shocking. It's a little tequila. Yeah. And then, you know, you read, like you really read the, um, the biographies of what people are accomplishing in this space. And it is, it is such an powerful, powerful list. And then we went to the, the gala dinner and you know, they've got several lists. Mine's like the young person because I'm young. So on the, I don't, I don't think they have an age. It was just future leaders, which is good. Suki was smart in that way. Uh, but they also had like CEO and, uh, a CEO list. And they also were a C suite list. And then they have a top allies list. And then they had, uh, I think public sector list. And each of the four who were top on each of those lists spoke at this event and like, I was absolutely gobsmacked with each of them. You know, like it was just the stories and how people are articulated and how they're moving these fields, um, and really pushing the envelope was incredible. And I, I just, it was one of the, you know, sometimes you go to these, but yeah, you do. Then they're not good chats, are they? But when it's about your personal experience and, and you open up and they should be really powerful about it. Oh, it was amazing. It's absolutely amazing. I mean, anyone who hasn't looked at these lists or looked at the people who's on the top of them, just do it. I mean, I'm not saying look at mine, go to the, go to the top. These people are outrageous. And are they, are they motivated to, to put yourself out there and be a role model? Yeah. I mean, I think, I think it's, it shifted something in me, um, because essentially what I was lacking before in courage, I just need to fake and do it. You know, I just need to do it and, and be aware that, uh, that will both work for me and in some instances work against me. But, but it's important. Certainly if I'm interested in taking more of a leadership role in an organization, I think authenticity, personal authenticity is so important. Yes. Yeah. Um, and there's no, there's no point in me presenting a professional person and then me being somebody else. Yeah. Uh, as soon as I'm off the clock, I think. But can you be authentic and not share everything about your life? I think that's fair. I think you can, but there is this, I don't know, I don't really know how to describe it other than to describe it as like the malaise of professionalism. And I see this across all, like many different people, not just gay people. I mean, straight people have this issue too, where you meet them and you have a conversation and they're this wonderful, engaging person or they have this really great personality. And then you exchange emails or phone and you're like, it's like a completely different person. You know, it's like the dear sir or madam email and I was like, I just, just met you. And, and you know, that level. It's funny though, business, when you meet people in a business context, yeah, um, taking it from business to personal. And maybe this is a UK thing. Actually, there's other companies, other countries are more formal than the UK. So like Germany, you have certain language you have to use. Anyone you get permission, can you change it to a more familiar thing? But like, when is it okay to ask, add a client on Facebook? Yeah, I mean, and, and the thing to me is, if I look at who the CEOs that I interact with or, you know, the top folks in all of these businesses, there is no daylight between how they present themselves at work and how I see them afterwards. So it's, you can choose not to tell personal anecdotal stories, but your core character, how you present yourself, how you speak to people. I really don't think there should be much of a difference. And I think that's what businesses are looking for. They want that set of authenticity because it builds a sense of trust in that person that the person that you are is the person that you'll always be. 100%. And they want that. And so for me, that means, you know, I will talk about my husband when somebody asked me about my weekend, but I'll also be funny in quote, Drake lyrics and meetings when I think it's appropriate. I don't think that impacts my competency. I think it just adds, it gives you greater confidence than I'm being authentic. So do you feel now that you're more effective than you've ever been, being completely open, authentic? Yeah. No, you really, it's amazing. Like when I think about the different roles that I've taken, I think where I am right now, I feel most empowered and most successful in the way that I do my work. And it's, and there's a variety of reasons for that. You know, number one, I really studied hard to learn about insurance in any way, shape or form that I could, you know, and talk to a lot of people about it. But it's also being comfortable and being confident in where I am and my trajectory and how I'm perceived and how I'm perceiving other people. I think one of the things we don't do enough of is asking people after things, how did that go, you know, how did that go for you? Like, what was that meeting like? Did you think I could have done something differently? You know, constantly get- Self-improvement. Yeah, I get that feedback loop. And I also think it opens up a great conversation with co-workers, both peers and higher ups as well. If I do a presentation, I absolutely go to people after that presentation say, how did that go? And you can't tell me anything positive. Like really force them to give you some constructive feedback. That's great. Most people don't check that out. No, it's really important. It's so shocking to me. Like they're just waiting for somebody to give it to them. I think self-criticism is so important. No one's going to wait for it. Just go get it. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Crazy. Which people have had the biggest impact on you? Oh. Or maybe a bunch of people. This is a funny one because the first person that pops into my mind, and she is, she was just re-elected actually, is Senator Diane Feinstein. So she, so I'd worked, I'd worked in as a receptionist as a senator before her. And when he lost his re-election bid, I knew somebody in the, somebody recommended her office to me. And I became her scheduler and then I eventually became her executive assistant. For a number of years. And she was, she was such, she is such a powerhouse. And she set the mode for me about what a good boss is. So, you know, lessons about, you know, work as hard as you expect your staff and the people around you to work. And she, even, even now, and she's been in the Senate for a while, she is absolutely rigorous. It's been long hours. Long hours. But like, not just long hours for the sake of it, but like, applying the rigor necessary to get the facts in order to make a policy decision. And what you see now is a lot of people just go to a policy decision and they'll supplement it with facts. And the thing I loved about Senator Feinstein was she absolutely went for the facts first, get your facts first, and then go to the back. And then the other thing is she just runs a great ground game when it comes to organization and timekeeping. And also the importance of like personal appearance. So for me, and I was really young when I started working with her, having that sense of structure. Was this one you were studying? No, this was just before. So this was just before I started studying law school. Knowing the importance of like showing up to meetings on time, being present, having done the reading before you get into the room, have an understanding of what the agenda is, have an opinion on what's going to be discussed was so important. And so she just stands out in my mind when I think about how I engage with people, how I learn about things and think about things. A lot of that I got from her. I love that. It's not taught in school. No. Turn up all the time, always look smart, learn about what you're going to speak about. Yeah, I mean, it's the ground game. And I think when I speak to people who are frustrated in their career, you know, looking for something, I often do like the, well, let's talk about your ground game. Like when you're showing up to work, what hobbies do you have after work? What are you doing to improve your skill set? Yeah. Other than just going for coffees and waiting for a break. Absolutely. Don't be the person that keeps losing your relapse. Yeah. Because you've lost before you've even gone out there. And, you know, everyone thinks, you know, everyone thinks that it's just a matter of luck, right? Like you just got to get in the right room with the right person and it'll happen. But luck favors the prepared. Absolutely. You need to be skilling yourself up at all times. And, you know, that was something that she taught me very strongly and it's something that has really served me well, especially, you know, coming over here and having to start at nothing, you know. There's no shortcut to success. There's no, you've got to put the work in and you get out where you put in. Yeah, you've really got to do it. You've got to do it. I don't believe in luck. No. But, and this is the thing. It's like, the secret to success is to work hard at it. You know, there is, there's just, I've not seen anybody that's, you know, woke up one day and. You can buy ticket for the lottery, but what are the odds? Yeah. Yeah, great lessons. Yeah. Yeah, she was great. Yeah. She is great. Yeah. Just to say in touch. So I did see her. I was back in, I was back in the U.S. just a couple of weeks ago as one of my side hobbies. I happened to be an ordained minister in the state of California. Wow. So I officially the wedding of my younger brother. Did you? Yeah. No, it's okay. And so I caught up with her when I was in D.C. Yeah, she's great. She's absolutely great. Yeah. And have you done, you've implemented a lot of that into your way of working? Completely. So I think anybody, so I hope anybody that knows me knows that I really focus on being timely. You know, like I just, I really value showing up to things on time because I think it's an immediate marker of how you perceive the other person. Right? Like I actually, I fundamentally feel this way that I'm showing up into the meeting is not just about me being there, but it's also about you being there. And if I'm late, I think that has an implication of how I view you. Probably a percent. And I just feel really strongly about that. So that's one of the things I've always, that she has absolutely instilled in me and that I really, really carry forward still. Yeah. Do you find that most people turn up on time for your meetings? I think most is a strong word. Yeah. It is a big problem. I think it's a big problem. I think it's a big problem. Yeah. I really, really do. And because we all have extreme pressures on our lives, we, you know, we all have extremely hectic lives. We're all juggling plates, but you've still got to get the core. There's a meeting in the diary for nine o'clock. Just turn up a little bit before. And the thing, and I've been absolutely shocked a few of these occasions. Like, I, you know, people ask to meet with me to talk about their career. And I don't, I don't know why, but I'm happy to do it. And I had this one chap show up and he was a solid 20 minutes late. What? Anyone to talk about his CV? And I was like, we're not even going to get to your CV. We're going to talk about your time management skills and what it is about you that makes you think it's okay to waste 20 minutes of my time and then come in and immediately start talking about you. Like, that's not going to happen. Unbelievable. It was unbelievable. But it's not, it's not a rare occasion. No, no, no. No, it's really not. And I don't mind. This is the weird thing. If I'm meeting with somebody, like a CEO or something like that, I don't mind waiting a few minutes because I understand. And I almost think it's a courtesy for me to do that. It doesn't bother me. But anything beyond that, and I just sort of think either you didn't want to be here, you know, it's... There's a genuine reason, like a meeting's roll over, fair enough. But I find, you know, the C-suite, I mean, it doesn't matter what job you're doing, all the same, all humans, just turn up on time. It's respectful. What a way to get a good meeting going. Turn up on time. Just turn up on time. It's a ground game. It's a ground game. Yeah. So I've got some friends that are always late. So we are telling them, like, let's meet at half an hour earlier than we're actually going to meet. No, we have... And they just about make it all the time. No, literally, we just started having this discussion in our house because we have some friends that are... We've put into the give them 30 minutes. So we just give them 30 minutes. You know, like, if we need them at 6.30, we'll tell them 6 o'clock. They don't know this, and I'm not going to name names, but they could probably figure it out. Oh, it's a funny one. It is a funny one. Yeah. And I don't know why some people have it, and some people just absolutely do not have it. I don't know if it's industry or... I don't know. Art-pringing. It could be. It's definitely not genetics. It's not genetics. No, my whole family, I think I'm the only one that's... Me and my grandmother, we're the ones that are like punctual, is all get out. The rest of my family is sort of not particularly... Crazy actual. Okay. So, we've talked about role models, being authentic, visibility. So, you've now clearly made a conscious decision to be visible, not just in your organisation, but now more publicly. Yes. Do you think it's an important thing that people need to do to get on in their careers? Completely. I mean, and this is one of those terms which I think have been co-opted successfully by diversity and inclusion mantras. And I think to the detriment of a lot of people think visibility only applies for people of the LGBT plus community. But I think this is one of the ones, anyone in any career path, you need to be focusing on your level of visibility, not just to your higher ups and to jobs that you potentially are looking for, but also your peers. I mean, I see a lot of people failing because they just manage up so well. Yeah. And that will only get you so far because at some point your peers will play a role in your career progression. And if you haven't... Absolutely. If you haven't been visible to them, if you haven't been present for them, they will make that mark. But it's also, and how do you do that? And I think there's so many wonderful opportunities to get visibility. I mean, you and I talked about this. We're both members of the Worshipal Company of Insurers. Yes, yeah. Which I think is an excellent way to get visible because most of those members, a lot of the members, are very senior in the insurance industry. And just like that, you go have a lunch and you're sitting next to see. Yeah, it's important. I mean, obviously you have to have something to talk about once you get there. But... Barber's training up. Yeah. We're talking about picking the working. This is part of picking the working. But, you know, and then there's all... Every company that I know of is running some sort of parallel strategy piece on how to improve something that's going on inside their company, whether it's a process or a new product or, you know, some sort of exercise where they're looking at what is possible. And I think anybody who puts those hands up, put their hands up for those, you know, that type of work to volunteer on those types of committees or to write a paper or do a presentation or something, it pays such dividends because it's above and beyond what you're being expected to do. But it's also you learning something and it's giving you the visibility. It's like, it's literally the triple threat. So, you know, people... I cannot stress it enough. You've got to be visible. No one's going to hire you if no one knows who you are. Yeah, yeah. But then equally, there's the other point of it which is you being visible, you don't know who's watching you do that, right? And like that was the... That's true. That was part of the point on the whole Financial Times list as well was that I am aware that there are people at Lloyds who don't feel comfortable being out. And so, if I can be as visible as I possibly can be, that impacts them. And hopefully then they'll become visible and it sort of begins... Well, yeah, this thing about you being a role model. And it's... But it's, you know, for me it's a role model for the LGBT community, but it could be for anything. You could be role modeling any behavior. Absolutely. And if you're being visible when you're doing it, you're impacting people who are around you, your peers or others. So... It's just you've got a specific goal here. Being visible just generally is... It can be quite daunting for people. You know, it's like attending networking events and no one likes to go and attend a networking event. Also, it's quite hard for people to speak to people they don't know. I get that. You know, standing up on stage is not for everyone. No, and... So the networking thing, in full disclosure, I really still get very nervous going to network events. And people are always surprised by this because they think I'm not. But no, I really am. And especially approaching somebody you don't know. And especially when I first started in this sector and I didn't... And not only did I not know anything, but I also didn't know anybody. So I would practice one hook that if I was to cold meet somebody, what would my one hook be? And usually I tried to read something interesting. It's the one chat up line. Like the one thing that... So I remember when we were... At one time, electronic placement was really coming into the fore of the discussion. And I remember for a few months, I just had a couple articles that I had read about electronic placement so that if I ever cold met somebody, you know, it would be like, Oh, you know, so what are your thoughts on electronic placement? You know, is it the future? And if you practice it and you go into the room with it, it makes it less daunting because then the only thing is you just have to find somebody to get it to. Absolutely. Because everyone feels the same. Yeah. Everyone's got a little bit of nervousness for someone they don't know. No one loves it. But... And actually, I found that to be really effective. You didn't need a whole lot. And then, you know, you'd have a chat with somebody and either it would go somewhere or it wouldn't go somewhere. And that's fine. But you still had your one piece so I, you know, I tell that to anybody who's feeling nervous about networking. Number one, we are all feeling it. But number two, just have one thing to talk about. Yeah. You just need... One nice question, open-ended. Yeah. With AI and all this stuff, I think it's going to be even more important for networking and continued learning, being visible. Yeah. Both also online as well. Yeah. So we talked offline. Online writing staff. Yes. A podcast, whatever it might be. You've got to upskill it. Yeah. Because it changes the game. Essentially, if it is something that can be commoditized in the sense is it something that can be put down to a spreadsheet in numbers, then it eventually will be. Yeah. And so, if you're not moving in a way to make sure that whatever you're doing is not something that can be replicated easily, then you're putting yourself at risk. Yeah. It's whether that's AI or, you know, any other force that's going to come into the market. Absolutely. Yeah. So a lot of stuff coming in, right? Completely. It's exciting. People should be excited. They should be excited. You know, it's, it can be scary because, you know, you've been doing, you've been doing something for so long and all of a sudden it risks. It's only scary if you have no idea what's there. And this is, it's going to be any age. I mean, I'm fairly sure the jobs my daughters are going to do haven't been invented yet. Completely. I completely agree with that. Even the digital market is only like 10 years old, maybe? No, and I agree. I challenge, I don't know, I absolutely agree with that. I don't know if the skill sets necessary to do these jobs are going to change that much. No, I agree. I think you can focus on building your skill set, you know, your core competencies. And then the actual technical information is something that you can learn and gather and you should be doing as you, as you go through. But oh, 100% agree in 10 years. There's going to be, I mean, look at the jobs we're doing now. They didn't exist 10 years ago. You know, there's, there's whole industries that are brand new and even like, okay, so my job as a headhunter, I mean, that's been going around for a while. But technology has changed and improved the way we work. That whole industry is changing. I mean, you're also a very proficient podcast host and that certainly didn't exist. And no, if I wanted to do a podcast like this, we'd have had to have like hired a big studio. Completely. Had like all the setup. Yeah. And now, so I mean now, so now in this time, the written work, the spoken word and video is teaching people more than the written word, which has only really been recent. So think how many more people in the world, people who can't read, can learn more just by listening. Yeah. It's amazing. That is, it is. And with these kind of longish format podcasts, you can really get into topics in quite detail. Yeah. And then someone listens to it and they get bored on their way to work and happens all the time. Yeah. Awesome. Thank you so much for joining me. We should do them more regularly. Absolutely. And yeah, thanks a lot. Thanks a lot. Cool. Cheers.