 This is the Neo Books Call on Monday, November 20th, 2023, right after the weekend of adventures that OpenAI had, which we're sort of talking about a little bit. Who's OpenAI? What do you mean, who's OpenAI? There's a company I vaguely remember called OpenAI. Yeah, yeah, which may still be alive and may not. They may all have abandoned it by tomorrow. I have a really hard time remembering it anymore. Is this like be a goldfish? No, not at all. It's like, you know, you've got a growing concern. So I have a hard time. I don't know. I mean, there's a lot I don't know about OpenAI. So saying that upfront, it's really hard to know. I think what happened with the, you know, the stewardship for good versus capitalism, it's really hard to tell. The battle wasn't lost Friday or Monday. It was lost if it was lost. It was lost a year ago when they kind of productized accidentally productize chat GPT and then became the darling of tech and, you know, whenever they made the Microsoft deal, that's when it happened. So I have a really hard time now telling whether Microsoft. In another conversation, somebody said, Microsoft is on my, excuse my language on my shit list. And even more than Meta or Apple or, you know, and they went down the whole list of all the companies that would be on your list. Microsoft was number one for that person. Somebody else said, why, why, you know, Nadella is doing a pretty good job. You know, and Microsoft is doing well and stuff like that. So that, that, that reply didn't come from somebody who cares about whether or not there's enclosure or not. So Microsoft is on my list because of the enclosure of open source. It's done a really amazing, expansive job of grabbing open source and clutching it into the embrace of Microsoft. So I've, you know, in the olden days, the old Microsoft, it did that kind of thing for commercial gain and market control and things like that. The new Microsoft, it's a lot more, it's more comfortable influencing a big space like open source. And it's, it's hard to tell if it's influencing it and influencing it for the good. I mean, they're, they're investing a ton of money into open source and making it better. Or if, or if it's enclosure and, you know, and death, it's hard to tell. So the same thing for me happened this morning, you know, well, Microsoft won that round. And it was another part of that conversation was this is the biggest own goal in history. And it's hard not to believe that. It's hard, you know, it's like, oh, we'll just kill the goose and lay the golden eggs and, you know, and we'll be okay. And it's like Microsoft just swooped in and suck, sucked up the golden eggs, right? It's like, why, why would you do that? And, and even if you thought Sam and his, and his colleagues were forting your progress towards social good or whatever, I think they just made it worse, you know, whatever they were trying to accomplish, they made it like, when you say own goal, you mean such cover? The open AI board. Yeah. And now Ilya is like, I deeply literally that's the words he said, I deeply regret my, you know, my going along with the board. You know, so, who started this? Like, what were the dynamics among the four board members? I haven't heard that story yet. And that's weird because the other three board members don't, they're not kind of known. Yeah, I've heard, you know, rumors and speculation. I haven't heard anything that I would know. Yeah. The closest I heard that made most, the most sounds was that it was just an ego thing with Ilya and Sam. Sam had just promoted somebody to basically be either parallel to Ilya or above Ilya or something like that. He just got kind of passed over recently and stuff. Yeah. I don't know. Weird stuff's going on. It is weird stuff from the outside. It's going to make really good movies. You know, nobody's going to care about whatever that company was that, that, you know, Oh, come on. I think when, when Skynet takes over, we're going to be really curious about the moments when it actually like blossomed into public view. And this will be one of them. It's going to not be remembered. Oh, because, because the robots will have gone back and scrubbed all these members. No, it's kind of like, so this is the biggest like failure of, or the biggest board crew, the biggest failure board crew since, you know, the Apple board kicks Steve Jobs out. Yeah. And the three of us here can remember that vividly. And tell the stories of it. And we figured we'd tell our grandkids the stories of it. But in the grand scheme of things, when you say Steve Jobs, most people in the world don't remember that he got fired. You know, they remember what happened after that. But I'm not sure that was as momentous as this is. And some interesting. It was not. I, and it's, it's striking because it's like, wow. And especially, you know, looking back after Steve was successful again, you know, it's like, that was a really, really strange and that's dwarfed by this. It's just warped. Very interesting. I had one of the weirdest day of my professional life was when I worked for new science associates. And sometime around 1991 to somewhere in there. There were three founders of new science who had all met at Gartner Group. And one day I'm on the phone with a client and it's 10am. And somebody comes over and says, drop everything. You know, apologize to your call. Everybody like downstairs. So like, okay, what the hell? So we all go downstairs and two of the three founders are basically saying, leave the building, leave the premises, come back at 4pm. Your jobs are safe. Don't worry, but we can't tell you anything right now. And so we left and I, I had the smart lucky move of going with the half the sales crew over to one of their apartments nearby. And they pretty much knew what was up. And they had, they had the inside, the inside scoop. And what happened was that the two of the founders ousted the third. And in the, you know, while we were gone, they changed the locks. They had a meeting with the third founder at a local hotel, presented him with papers that said, Hey, here's the deal, et cetera, et cetera. So we came back at four and, and learn most much of this, but not all of it. It was just really bizarre and interesting. And I've never. I guess I'm fortunate that that was the weirdest day of my whole career. But that was a really mini palace coup. Back then. So anyway, short, short stories. Yeah, it's really weird. It's certainly memorable. Like, whoa. Yes. And I can imagine that this being in much more public view for a much larger enterprise is just like crazy making for all the people in there, you know, 550 of the 700 employees threatened to resign unless the board is dissolved. Wow. Wow. The final part of that letter says the board resigns and Sam and Greg are reinstated and it's like. That's too late. Too late. Yeah. And this for the company with the fastest growing market of the most interesting new market around. Which only last week had to put a governor mechanism on, you know, new sales or new accounts of people dying to give it money. It's just, it's, it's, it's shocking. That right there might, might be part of what made things come to head. In which sense, I mean, there's like 400 pressures that that would have been contributing to, right? Yeah. One of the rumors that I heard and granted it was like the end of last week, I think. Last morning. But it was like, Ilya's nose was bent out of shape because all the, all the GPU, you know, cycles are getting soaked up by paying customers and not by, you know, it was like the research staff kind of needs to be able to work here guys, you know, I don't know what you're doing with this commercial venture. Oh man. It's crazy. And it's crazy and interesting and relevant to the stuff they care about. The other prediction I'll make about forgotten companies. Now it looks like Microsoft is Nadella's company founded by Bill, whoever and Paul, what, what's his face? I don't know. I don't remember. It's Microsoft, you know, the company that, that cracked AGI, you know, under the, under the leadership of Nadella and Altman. That's interesting. Nobody knows why General Motors is called General Motors and United Airlines is called United Airlines. General Electric. They were, they were both industry rollups. There were tons and tons of little players that got squished together. And nobody remembers the component parts, right? Nobody remembers. Yeah. Excitement. Well, I'm just on a completely different note. I'm going to talk a little bit about the accolades of Rosalind Carter today. It was really the little piece back. It was, what a remarkable woman. Totally remarkable. Anyway, it's just, you know, just total in awe of the woman. You know, anyway, we can put a full stop there, but I just thought I would, you know, the little good news. Good news. Good news. Good and sad news. Yeah. Yeah. Good and sad. I think there's no reason to stop there for a sec. We can talk about it more. James Fallows was a speechwriter for, I forgot which president first, but he's tracked this a long time. And he's known the Carter's for a long time. So he wrote a brief piece about Rosalind. And it's just really interesting stuff. I mean, I, I think Carter is the best sex president we've ever had and was not a terrible president. No, I agree with you. Yeah. Totally. Which actually speaks to speaks to the, the decline of politics in the United States over the last 40 years and how smearing can be so effective and dark money can is used not to promote the candidate, but to tear down candidates. And so you have this, you know, toxic brew of just destroying people without elevating others. And it's just, it's, we are in a real pickle. And it's going to be fascinating what happens in the next election. And also there's a good chance there's a good chance that Trump could get in, you know, I mean, you know, there's shenanigans and shenanigans and they know how to play the game. And have you had a melee just one. The presidency of Argentina. He is a far right. He's calling himself the Trump of Argentina. Although he won. He won by a good grief. 5644 or something like that. Wow. Percentage of the vote. And one of his first moves is going to be something that I'm kind of not unhappy about, which is the dollarization. He's going to get rid of the Argentine. Yeah. He's going to do it. There's a couple of countries that are fully dollarized. I don't know which ones Panama is one of them. There's a few others, but he's going to like get rid of the peso. And the central bank. And whatever else that means. And I'm like, whoa, I lived there as a kid and I went back as an adult for a project and I, I have, I have a bag of million dollar million peso notes. I have, I have like, I don't have no idea if they're worth anything, but I'm not a bag. I've got a good clutch of million peso notes that got replaced by a thousand peso notes when they chopped zeros off the currency went near. And you had to turn in your old notes and like, you know, get, get them replaced kind of thing. Then they went to the austral, which was a replacement currency. Then they said screw the austral went back to the peso. It was a very interesting coverage of the election pre-election coverage on Amapur. And, you know, I mean, if, if there were one thing that you could identify that tipped the balance because he, he, his antics in his, I didn't follow it closely, but just what was portrayed on TV. You know, he is Trump like very fanboy and he's very evocative. He knows how to charge people up emotionally. And I'm just wondering whether that one issue alone was the turning point of bringing economic stability, the promise of economic stability to their inflation. Anyway, not that I know much about Argentine, but it was just interesting. Yep. Anyway, um, thank you for that second topic. Shall we head to the books from it? Yes. And I don't know. Sounds good. I thought Klaus might be here, but I, he must be on the move or something and Stuart. Um, but let's just roll into the, let's just take a little bit more into the new books a bit. Um, where, which part of new books should we like, since it's us three, what, what's the best. Part of it to tackle. I, I'll go. Um, Uh, I would have to say my main interest with new books is, uh, like the technical production part. Um, and, uh, and at least knowing that we have. Um, what, what in Silicon Valley we used to call marketing and distribution going on. So, um, uh, I don't know if I have more to say, say about that. I definitely got ideas about, uh, um, technical production process. Um, uh, and, um, and I want to know that that marketing and distribution is going on, but other than that, I guess I don't have a big question for you. Pete and I were on a call last week with a different group, uh, that includes some of our, our friends from multiple projects through GM and such, which was working on sort of things around AI, but one of the presenting projects was, uh, an edited volume of contributions from people because one of the people on the call whose code of sort of convene the call has a small press, a small vanity press or publishing house or the capacity to basically turn out books. Um, and, and just Pete, do you have any thought that that would be a useful or interesting thing for us to use for Neo books, or should we just like plot our own little path and keep going? Uh, her, her press in particular, or. Yeah. Specifically the offer she made to, Hey, let's help people like make books and put them out there. And I'm like, I think I underestimate how much we might need help like that, but. I don't know. I've been there, done that. Um, I own Stonyfield press and it's published Kindle books. So. Oh. So there you go. There you go. Um, it's, uh, she, she followed it on by saying, you know, and once you guys see how easy it'll, it'll be, you'll, you'll have your own press. Um, yeah. The process of getting a book, uh, into ship shape for Kindle is, you know, and whatever you want to do to call it a press or whatever. Um, not that big of a deal. So I mean, it's, it's, you know, it's on the order of getting on the web or getting it into PDFs or whatever. Right. There, there is an interesting part there. Um, at least back when I did, this was a while ago. Um, you didn't need an, an, it's been for, you know, Amazon cares about it at ASIN and they don't care about it. It's all, um, but, uh, I also went through the process of getting an ISBN number, um, for, you know, the couple of books that I was working on. Um, that, that was at least back, and this was a while ago, you know, it was, it wasn't hard or anything, but it was more involved than I, I thought, I guess maybe it was mostly the money. It was a fair chunk of change to, to register it. That was the, that's the thing that stands out my mind. The other thing that actually stands out my mind back and back when I was doing that, uh, I use, I ended up using Microsoft Word as the, um, publishing tool or the, the type setting tool. Maybe it's another way to say it. Um, I don't, I don't know. But it's probably much cleaner and better now than, and you'd probably don't need to use Microsoft Word. Mm hmm. Cool. Thank you. Um, and then also separately completely Pete and I, him doing the technical stuff, tried to take, uh, classes manuscript and turn it into, uh, some Markdown, which is the, and Rick, I don't know how familiar you are with this, but the idea is, um, I'm writing in Markdown, but, uh, Stuart and, uh, Klaus are writing in Google Docs. Uh, and we could try to go from Google Docs into some sort of publishing, you know, EPUB, uh, uh, direction, but the conceit of Neo books is that we break the, the books down into nuggets or chat, you know, chapters, then nuggets sort of sub chapters that roll up into the book as published. And so Pete and I spent some time trying to export, um, uh, the Google Doc as a series of Markdown pages and ended up hitting a bunch of mysterious format marks that we need to figure out, you know, basically trap and change or trap and use, uh, and a few other things that are going to have to happen, but we had, we got a little bit of, uh, mileage on what that's going to look like, the, just the conversion, the conversion process. Mm hmm. And Rick, I think you're, you're in Google Docs as well, right? I do use it, not that, that much actually, but I do use it. Yeah. What's your general writing tool then, word? Uh, actually a sub stack now. I've been using sub stack and I just, I just go straight in there. Um, you know, last week we spoke about this a little bit and, uh, you know, one of the things that, um, I was curious to, you know, cause a couple of sessions ago, I asked you to sort of like give a pitch of what Neo books is. Um, and, uh, I think you've already established a sub stack present sort of thing for Neo books. The question is what to do with that. Um, and I actually, I think the idea of, of, you know, what I proposed last week of, you know, you can share a, uh, a pre draft publication, uh, of something, bring it to this and to other meetings for that matter. Um, and get feedback on it. And then when you do publish it, then you get people to, you announce people that it's being published. So you begin to get, um, people coming to it and you can cross references on other things like LinkedIn and whatever. But I think you really need to have a sort of, um, and I'm not, this is not my expertise. This is just the ideas, but having a sort of strategic approach about how you get the word out. I mean, writing a book is a relatively easy, easy thing to do, relatively easy thing to do. The question is, does it get anywhere? And, and it's 90% marketing. And if you don't have a, a well thought out strategy about that, you know, you can have the best message in the world, but you know, if it's not heard, it's not going to go anywhere. Um, and so one of the things that I, I'm curious about is where, how this may evolve within this group about how to use sub stack. Um, and I mean, there are other people within your group who use sub stack and write in it. Um, but how do you create a sort of my senior network? So you have a hub like, and then you have people and myself are doing things. And occasionally I could do a, you know, a guest article in there. And you, and you start, um, you know, crowdsourcing it. Now, one thing that I didn't realize and, uh, you know, this gets into the algorithms of publishing onsites is that they do track things. Like on LinkedIn, if you get a lot of, you know, views and comments within the first hour or two, it tends to get amplified. So unless you know the names of the games and these various platforms, which is not my area of expertise, then, um, you know, I don't know if there's anybody within your group who understands this, uh, effectively, but you know, there is, um, you know, you have to know how these things operate if you're trying to get any message out. Um, thanks, Rick. That makes a lot of sense. I wonder for this group, um, how much we want to do, um, uh, whatever, I, I, I'm thinking of the term SEO, but it's not SEO, um, whatever kind of, uh, strategic marketing you do, I wonder how much this group actually wants to do that, to try to game the algorithms. Um, on the one hand, um, gaming, you know, if, if you've got a good message and Klaus is, you know, a good example, you know, more, more people should hear Klaus. Um, is it, um, is it, is it the right thing, uh, to join in with, you know, essentially commercial marketing techniques, uh, and, um, you know, dopamine stealing market techniques and, uh, uh, algorithm gaming techniques, you know, is that the right, is that the right thing to do for the better good? Is it, um, it feels a little bit, uh, wrong to me. Um, it feels a little bit right too. I mean, I'm not complaining. Um, in, in some perfect world, there, I, I, I guess, I guess I wish in some perfect world that there was a little bit more organic way to do it. Um, so instead of tricking the algorithm into promoting you better, um, it would be more like, uh, real people going, wow, this, uh, you know, this message needs to get seen by more people and I'm going to use my network to, you know, to help with that. I don't know. So there's a lot of energy we could pour into distribution or awareness building before we, I mean, we could spend a whole, a whole bunch of effort doing fruitful, um, organic marketing before getting to SEO, even though I agree with you that SEO is the place most people go. Sorry, Rick, go ahead. No, no, no, I, I concur with you. I share that ambivalence and it's sort of, um, a question of, you know, it's like anything, um, you know, what's the integrity of marketing? And, you know, there's the good, the bad and the ugly. Uh, most of it's bad and ugly. Uh, but the question is how can you, how can you raise to a level of ethical marketing? And the thing is you can't control the systems that you engage with. So that, um, I don't see it as, as necessary manipulating the algorithms. It's more a question of understanding the manipulation that's already gone into the algorithms so that you know that you're not at a disadvantage. Um, so, you know, it's, it's a serenity crash. You know, you know, that's what it comes down to. And the question is if you do go out in there, how can you do it with a sense of ethics, which I am totally not the, uh, you know, behind. And I picked up on some of your sentiments on that area and the sort of conundrum of balancing between, you know, doing things in a purist manner versus being pragmatic, given the fact that's the reality of the world, such as sub-stack, you know, sub-stack isn't necessarily, you know, the best, but you know, it's, it's the one that I've seen what I'm looking at. I'm saying this looks as though it's got potential. Um, and I mean, for example, I said this feedback once before way back when I first started attending, you know, everything that you're doing at the moment. And I've said this to other groups. There's so much good stuff that goes on within the walls of that, you know, group. But why not make it public? Why not, why not use some stack? Everything. I mean, the videos and stuff like that, you know, pick out the ones and just, you know, uh, you know, put it out there to see whether you can actually snowball things. And, and, and, and, you know, cherry pick the things that you decide to put on there. So if, if somebody does, like for example, uh, one thing that I'm interested in is how to make more effective, uh, collaborative learning platforms. And, you know, if there's an inverted, you know, classroom technique of where you prime it up with a brief, an article, a brief video thing that maybe five minutes come to the zoom thing, you know, get involved in a large group, small group, you know, um, dialogue things. How can you, you create that sort of, um, uh, organic learning community. Um, and that's what I'm interested in is, you know, you know, if we're, if we're going to take on the dark side, we've got to have some pretty sophisticated light to be able to take it on. Yeah. Nicely put. Um, so the idea of taking excerpts from our different rhythmic calls and posting them through sub doc had never occurred to me and is a good idea. Um, and I'm like, well, gosh, okay. I hadn't really thought about that. I post them all to YouTube and then forget about them. And the time it takes to go back and clip an excerpt is time I don't have. So don't take. Um, and I'd be really interested, you know, at the end of every call, if people had time markers for the beginning of some note, noteworthy thing that was said or done on that particular call, it'd be super interesting to be able to easily go back and, and do, you know, Harvest those and use them well. That'd be pretty cool. I think you're asking is, I don't know what, uh, open global mindset. Is it just a, you know, a loose association? Is it, you know, is an entity? Is it nonprofit? I mean, what is, what is the status of it? There are a couple of entities. So OGM is a community of practice that has no legal structure. Then there is a tiny thing, uh, called, I'm even forgetting what we called it. Uh, but is, uh, is basically a fiscal spawn C of an actual non, of a registered nonprofit. You could do that. And then, um, That's, that's most of the legal structure. Yeah. Well, the reason why I bring that up is because if you do have a nonprofit structure, um, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, if you do have a nonprofit structure, um, I'm sure you're familiar with tap roots, but you know, if, if you have an enter, if you have something, once this gets better developed and you get buy in about the notion of, of NIO books that, um, that can be organic, evolving, there'll be products, different ways of doing things, creating communities. Um, then, you know, that might attract people from, you know, you can, you can apply to tap root to ask for volunteers for very specific things that you need assistance with. Um, and, um, you know, I mean, it all comes down to, you know, what resources can you harness and align in a way that can advance the cause really. Thank you. And thanks for reminding us of the pepper foundation. Oh, yeah. The one thing is the other thing is last time we did speak about what's the governance of NIO books. I mean, I think that should be part of the dialogue as well. I mean, if you think about what happened with, not that I know anything about open AI, you know, there was obviously interpersonal dynamics. They didn't get the government stuff sorted out. You know, there was obviously, you know, you know, they hadn't done their rework to anticipate some of the, you know, inevitable things that might emerge given the fact that was growing so rapidly. Um, so I think putting energy into, uh, into that. So, um, you know, one thing you could do potentially here is that somebody could, you know, do a blog post and do a pre, you know, pre review of it. So you send it to people in advance, you discuss it and then think about, okay, what would this, you know, what would this look like on that? Or if somebody had something you wanted to put that they wanted to promote through that. So, you know, people can have their own things. They can, they can do a lead article in within OGM, or they can have, you know, so how are you creating a network of people, um, that, you know, connect with each other around the different, you know, areas of interest? Um, and that's partly why I started with the question about is what happened to OpenAI, uh, damaging to the future of steward ownership, because we were sort of, um, led in some sense by, uh, Jordan Sukut. We were heading towards steward ownership with a little flotilla of, of organizations that wanted to do something like that. And, uh, some, I'm, I'm, I'm looking for evidence of, you know, whether what's happened right now is good or bad for that kind of organizational structure or what else it means. Because it looks like that organizational structure will be flushed out of OpenAI and its successors, like, by next week. Because I think that, I think that what the employees are demanding is the firing of the board and the restructuring of the company. And I don't know what new form it's going to take, but, but it feels like they had this attempt to do steward ownership that didn't go well. It was, it was poorly, I mean, I, who am I to talk? I mean, you know, there are large forces at work, but I don't think it's steward ownership that, that that's called into question. I think it's the, you know, the operation of the board, uh, over the past probably a year and a half, at least maybe two years. Um, they've, you know, they had the opportunity to, to handle things much better over the past year. None of, none of this past year has been a surprise. You know, after, after the first week of chat, it was not, I, I, you know, I, I'm, I would, they should not have been surprised by anything that unfolded. So they've had a year to get off their duff and, you know, figure out what they wanted and make it happen. Um, and instead what happened is somehow in the, in the course of a week, uh, you know, interpersonal stuff and money stuff and God knows what, um, you know, it exploded, uh, like a firecracker in their hands. So it's, I, the, it's an interesting, it will be an interesting case study, but not, it doesn't have much to do with anything, you know, any, any kind of governance stuff that we care about. Yeah, exactly. And part of, part of that is, is, you know, it's just funny because for some reason last night I was watching PBS, whatever. And, you know, I was thinking, you know, they were doing an appeal for money, whatever. I mean, a model like PBS where it's clearly, you know, it has shifted and changed over time. But if it's really, um, if the enterprise is really in the common good, et cetera, a common cause, whatever, then, you know, trying to sort out the governance of that process, I think is critically, critically important, um, as a, um, anti-capitalist force to everything else that's going on. Um, so. And we have good examples of that. Um, I would, in, in that category, I would nominate Wikipedia. Um, and, um, the Mozilla Foundation. Um, we can talk. Linux Foundation, maybe? We can talk to Linux Foundation. We could talk to Brian Belendorf. You can probably talk to people at Wikipedia. Um, I, you know, and, and I, there's a lot of complaining too about Wikipedia or, um, the Linux Foundation or the Mozilla Foundation, but it didn't blow up either. And Wikipedia is still, as far as I know, within the top 10 most traffic websites and the only one that doesn't use cookies or whatever, et cetera, et cetera. So the fact that it's got there and has stayed there, despite a whole series of setbacks and difficulties is impressive. It's incredible. The, the amount of, um, the, the, the depth and kind of the breadth of the bureaucracy underneath, you know, Wikipedia Foundation and then out to all the volunteers and all the, um, language specific Wikipedia is, is breathtaking. I think that, that whole thing there is, it's, it's amazing that anything works at all, I think. Um, and, um, I have my complaints about the way Wikipedia works, but, you know, taken as a whole, I think it's a, I think it's a shining example of, of humans working together in, you know, in ways that, that we don't typically work together at scale. It's, it's really remarkable, remarkable. Do you have any connections? Do you have any connections with, with them? I mean, in some respects, what you're describing is, is a parallel process there in terms of thinking about, um, you know, the function would be different here, but it's really about creating interactive learning communities rather than going to Wikipedia, you know, for specific things that you're looking for. Um, and so it's, it becomes a dynamic Wikipedia. So to speak of learning communities around things because, you know, I mean, people put, you know, the nice thing about, you know, you probably know the history of temporary, but you know, the reason why it came into being was that people like to volunteer for things they love to do. I mean, duh. And, and their job wasn't interesting. So I want to donate my time to something I really, you know, feel good about. Well, if you can tap into that, into that force and take it to scale so that you are actually inverted so that capitalism is, is on the sideline and you have a flourishing, you know, learning community around it. That's, that would be sweet. It would be sweet. Yeah. One little factoid that I didn't appreciate until I heard it was that during the Renaissance, they, they used to play along. They had 120 days a year where they did things for fun. I mean, imagine if, if, you know, you know, life could be that you only had to work two days a week and you had the rest of the week to do whatever you want. You know, wouldn't that be nice? That'd be awesome. Wouldn't it? That's what I'm doing now. I'm just working, I'm just working two or two and a half days a week now. So anyway, I'm living the life I wish I had at the beginning of my career. Way to go. Excellent. Yeah. Jerry, I wonder what your goal, your personal goals for new books are. So a couple of different things. One is I think this is an interesting experiment in the future of media and how ideas float around the world. I'd like to be prototyping that. So I'd like to play an active role in prototyping it. If I saw that someone else had done this and done this well, I'd be like joining them. I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't say, let's go right. I'm Neo books. And I think that pieces of what we're doing have been done in other places, but I don't, I don't see it sort of set up yet. So that's one thing. The other thing is I want to write one or more Neo books. I've had a, I've had a book disaster in 2000. I've got at least one, maybe three books in me anyway, without doing primary research. And I'm just trying to facilitate getting them out of my head and into nuggets that can be rolled up into some Neo books as we learn how to do the process. And then third, I think that the first thing I said has a bunch of knock on effects that are kind of like what Rick was just talking about, which is communities of practice, learning communities just can play and community and thinking together and a bunch of other things. And my, my larger goal is to help humans make better decisions together. And I think a piece of that is just about the ongoing sharing of what we believe in wine. And, and I think that that's usable. Or at least we can get closer to it by doing things like Neo books. So that's a piece of it. And there's, there's probably motivations that you've seen or imputed to me that, that I haven't verbalized or made aware myself. And if so, let me know. Because I'm really interested. And so thank you for the question. Which, which, where's your passion highest? If you were to pick one book, what, what is the, what is the one that you're most drawn to, to pursue first? Well, the one I'm, the one I'm working on right now as part of Neo books is a design from trust. Basically, what is it? It's a different from book from the one I was trying to write before, but related. And that that's kind of, I just want to get the idea in the world in some practical, practical way. By the way, did you, did you have a chat with Darryl? Stickly, you know, the guy who, were you able to chat with him? We did. No good. And thank you for the introduction. I'm trying to remember where we went with it. I will, it'll come back to me, but that's okay. He's written a book about it. And he's actually, you know, he's actually working with people about that. He's a, I don't know if you realize, but He may not have mentioned to you, but he's blind. And he's got a very interesting history. Yeah. Yeah. We don't have to go down that rabbit hole, but. So what about you, Pete? What, what's your, what's your, do you have, have one? Do you have something that. Rises to the top calling you. I unfortunately have like 10 things that rise to the top or 12. Very literally, I mean, I've got. I've got kind of ADD with new books. I'm interested in. I, you know, there's, I have the good, the good news, I guess, is at least for me, I can see ways that all of my different interests and projects interrelate. So. So. I'm interested in the technical publishing process for new books. Obviously, I'm also interested in collaborative writing. New books. I've got another project called prose fusion, where. I'm exploring. The writing process, just the writing process. New books is a little bit more about the publishing process and negatization, stuff like that. But they, they go together. They, they synergize and then both of those things synergize with massive wiki. There's also. A new thing coming out of the discussions with about new books. The massive wiki. The massive wiki version of email newsletters and, and nuggets. So when, when we talked about, you know, should it be ghost or substack, it's like, there's this third thing. That. Looks like you're using ghost or substack, except that you're probably actually using something more like massive wiki. And then it's hooked to email. There's, there's not much. You know, there's, there's not much. Technology that needs to make it so that. You could have a massive wiki version of ghost or substack. The technical part at least not the marketing part of substack. I don't know. I'm interested in. I, I probably actually would be interested in writing some new stuff. I have a bunch of like pieces here and there scattered all around and went up to collect them up and get them out. One theme that I've heard you speak about, I don't know whether it fits into that, but it actually, you know, reflects some of the things you've already said, which is this interface, so to speak, between capitalism, so to speak, and social good or social impact. And even your, your questions about. Using the even substack, you know, the sort of hesitancy about, you know, that or how to gain the algorithm, so to speak. And to me, that comes back to the ethics and integrity of what you're trying to do, which often gets so short changed. And, you know, interesting enough, I'll just go off. I was in involved in a group. I won't go into the details of it, but somebody triggered me and I said, okay, I want to write a blog about this. And I'll just tell you the title of it. Let me just pull it up here. The title of is it. How might the phoenix of the Grand Old Party, GOP, resurrect the Eisenhower virtues of democracy from the authoritarian ashes of Trumpism? And, you know, yeah, you know, but to me, I write with questions, you know, to evoke things, you know, and so, and so I did a little, you know, chat, you can think, what are Eisenhower's principles of democracy and, you know, whatever, and then did this and this and whatever. And I just churned it out last night and then I'll show you the, let me show you the image that I got from Dolly, which is, I'll see if I can quickly share it, maybe if I can here. There we go. That's that's the image that came. I don't know if you can see that very well. Yeah, I get that. Yeah. That was the image that was generated. And I put details in it. So, yeah, that's the image. That's a good one. The phoenix needs to be tearing Trump limb from limb, just a personal preference. Well, well, well, actually mid journey could probably turn that into a movie so that you could actually see the phoenix devour. It could be a vulture, actually, rather than the phoenix. Anyway, I couldn't. But actually, it's amazing what you can do. And I'm a neophyte. I've only done, you know, maybe a dozen of these things so far. But anyway, I thought I would just share something that I'll stop sharing there. But, you know, doing short things like that where it's, it's a little bit more sophisticated than clickbait, but it's actually leading to substance rather than just getting your attention to manipulate. You know, for whatever ulterior purpose that people have when they, you know, use these platforms. But anyway, that's the one thing I was intrigued by is your deliberations, which I've noticed several times about that tension between, you know, but that could be an article. That could be an article. I mean, that could be a very nice article. Yeah. Thank you. That's awesome. This is going to sound weird to say, but I think the, the ethics part of that is actually secondary to kind of the, the, the thing I'm interested in is structural mechanics of humanity. And the way that we, the way that we've got into the hierarchical and capitalist, you know, model is just, it's, it's bad for a lot of people bad for almost absolutely. So, so kind of everything I do is centered around the idea of decentralization and distribution and, you know, flat inter, interlocking societies, small, much smaller society is working together for common good and out of that, you know, it comes the questions of, so would you use open source or closed source? Would you use, you know, a capitalist system or not capitalist system? And so then I, another set of interests that I didn't really go into our organizational structures around decentralized small, small groups, decentralizing, but also being able to coordinate. So massive wiki is a tiny part of that. I've talked with Jordan Sukut and David Bowell about other kinds of organizational structures or organizational structuring is maybe a better way to say it, to get, you know, more decentralization. Yeah, it's fine because I would go ahead. Just to go back to what Pete was saying earlier, it reminded me that one of my motivators is also to help Pete and massive get to where they could be. Because Pete and I share a lot of, I think, vision of what the possibilities are and how this all kind of works together. And it's, you know, what we're going to do right now pragmatically is hopefully several of us will go write blog posts on substack, then we'll probably copy those posts out and put them into markdown files so that they're available as nuggets within the massive ecosystem. But it should be the other way around. It should be, we should be writing these things as markdown files and then just press a button so that massive can act like substack as Pete was describing. And the same thing, the same things end up happening except the other way around. And pretending to be substack and pretending to be a book and actually being a wiki and actually being a discussion platform and all those kinds of things are all the kinds of rich features that it would be lovely to see grow and happen. Well, just another idea because I was just, I think violinist should have broken in right about that. Sorry. Go ahead. I was just listening to Lex Friedman's podcast for the and he's, he's got this gentleman on who is a political scientist that I hadn't heard of before, but it ties into what you're talking about decentralization and he talks about power and how anarchy that gives rise is non-hierarchical and gives rise to hierarchy and his whole premise of everything he's talking about. I diametrically opposed to and here is a sophisticated political science talking about power. And so, you know, if there is a sort of person who you diametrically disagree with, which is a great learning place, because then you can start articulating your arguments more coherently. And, you know, so for example, if as part of this learning community that there would be a podcast use site that you listen to in advance and you come prepared in advance to, you know, get into the substance of what the person and where you disagree with, because he talks about realist and liberalism, the three schools of liberalism and the different schools of realist and how they look at power. And I disagreed with the way he was talking. And I'm thinking this guy spent a career of studying dysfunctional political systems. And, you know, what if we actually design things that weren't based upon fear and domination, yadda yadda, you know. Duh. Duh. I mean that would be, yeah. Yeah. Well, exactly. And it's, you have to have the trust. You have to eliminate fear. You have to allow people to have the space to be generative, joyful and have fun together opposed to all this, you know, toxic divisiveness. I mean, it's just, it's escalated. And there is, there needs to be a counter force to this. And how low do we have to get before we discover it? Or we're just going to tear ourselves apart. You know, it's just anyway. Anyway, you might want to look at that. Yeah. You might want to look at it. Do you know who? Yeah, I'm just, let me just see if I can find it here. His name is John Merchant Shimer. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I mean, he's, he's very articulate, you know, and, but just a very opening of a sting. I'm, he was downgrading anarchy, you know, as though that was a negative. Well, of course it can be, you have to define what it means. It means decentralized pair, our people are self-organized, self-generating, whatever. Then you can get rid of the stupid hierarchies that gets us into all these techniques. Good Lord. Is it the three minute and 26, three hour and 26 minute podcast? John Merchant Shimer. Yes, it is. Yes, it is. And actually, I know, well, I'm only about an hour into it, but, you know, I mean, that's, that's the problem with these long formats. But I must admit, I do like the way he interviews people. He does it from a position of humility, unlike, you know, some of the, the right wingers who, who come from incredible hubris. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Great. Joe Rogan and, and Gordon Peterson and all these, you know, super mega stars of the social media sphere. And that's the era we're in, right? The second totally. I know, exactly. Totally. And it's just triggering, triggering amygdala and reptilian brains. That's all it's about. And that's the, and what you just said earlier about how do we counteract that is crucially important right now, like crucial. Exactly. I mean, this connections and everything we're saying here, because the issue of trust, you don't have trust, you've got nothing. If you can't, if you don't have safety and trust, then threat and fear is going to dominate and you're going to regress to survival mode and you're never going to have the resources to be able to handle conflicts. But weirdly, threat and fear also have trust models around them. Like you can, if you can trust somebody to be fair about the use of violence, then there's a form of trust there. So my favorite, and you also mentioned a moment ago, like having people with really different opinions. One of my favorite sort of justing partners that way is my sensei at my dojo, whose name is Ty Barker. And he's very libertarian. He would have us all basically live like Sparta and, you know, compete up the hierarchy and learn, you know, learn weapons and whatever else. And, and he thinks open carry is just fine. No problem. And a bunch of other stuff that I don't, I don't want to live in a society where I'm walking down the street watching people pack heat. And that would make me think I would feel, I would feel, I shouldn't speak because I've never walked down a street like that. I mean, I mean, the closest I've been is maybe having been in Tel Aviv at one point and seeing some people with submachine guns, you know, strapped on. I think that might be it. But still, there's visions of that that make no sense to me. And, but trying to articulate that and compare notes really is the first for me. It's very, it's a. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Super interesting. Yeah. You just triggered a little association by what you're describing there. I remember a GP named Mickey Winegardner who was from Tel Aviv and I was in Hong Kong. This is several decades ago. And he invited me to eat some kosher food at the Jewish center in Hong Kong. And apparently it's a very small community. So as, as we're going into the restaurant, you know, they're doing security checks, you know, looking in our bags and whatever. And, and I said, I said to Mickey, I said, isn't it sad that you have to go through this? And he said, good grief, I wouldn't go into a restaurant unless they had that. You know, I mean, it's just, you know, his way of life was such that it was so, I mean, you know, talk about creating an atmosphere of safety. If that's what it takes, then that's what it takes. But it was, I remember that so vividly when he said that to me, I thought, so, you know, I came in with my world view and he just, you know, shattered my world view with his world view. And I thought, wow. And I'm sitting here wrestling with whether I actually ever want to know how many people in the restaurants I have actually been to were packing heat. That I didn't, that I didn't know about that, that I didn't realize. Yeah. We're carrying and it's like, it's probably a lot. It's probably how much. Just one last thing. I did speak with Kent Langley and he remembers you very well, Jerry. So he spoke well of you. Thank you. So anyway, I thought you said, would you be willing to come to one of these sessions to explain what you're doing with your bookbots? And he was open to the idea. So it probably won't happen until, you know, sometime in the future, I'll just find out when he might be available because he's been thinking along and odd about, you know, how to use books in a much more interactive way. And they've got, I think the last time I spoke to you, mentioned the, the MTP genius chat app that he's developed where you can go in and you can ask, you know, Colleen Ismail what, you know, questions about exponential organizations. So that might be a good link. But I think the power will be, the power of the network is how can you link up with lots of different other people who share the common vision and, you know, honestly, what I call empowerment networks, not network power, empowerment networks. And I think that's what we have to work towards if we're going to have decentralized power. We have to design things to empower people. That's really interesting. There's one here who can't what he's, what he's up to. It would fit really well our conversations here. Huh. And he was the exo community, the exponential organization community has its own token that's been about to be monetized for about four years now. And I don't, I don't think it's, I don't think it's ever turned into something valuable, but, but yeah. Yeah. There's an element to what they're doing, which to me is too, how shall I put it, too capitalist, so to speak, because it's really built within the corporate mindset, so to speak. On the other hand, you can't hide the reality of corporations. And there are some ones out there who are trying to do good stuff, even though you may not entirely agree with the model, but then it becomes, well, you know, who from that side can you collaborate with in ways that can harness the power, you know, conscious capitalism with social impact, you know, which is a great and hot question these days. And I've been, I've been morbidly fascinated to watch the backlash against woke companies. Because, you know, three years ago if a company wasn't taking a stand, two years ago, if a company wasn't taking a stand on important social issues, you were like, hmm, what's up with you people. And right now, if they do, they're gonna get, you know, backlash like crazy. And it's crazy making for the companies, I think. But to me, I'm always really interested in the lash and backlash of history. That part of history just rivets me. So, you know, when people, when reactionaries basically have their way and change society back or towards some new warped place, it's fascinating. And I mean, to me, that speaks to the dysfunctional polarization that vacillates back and forth with, you know, backlash, revolution, counter-evolution, the idea. And to me, one of the critical things is, well, how can you, you know, move beyond those polarities and think about try polarity multiple so that you're actually moving in a direction that's, you know, the middle ground, so to speak, without, you know, teeter-tottering to the extremes. And I think that's the challenge. Yeah, it's interesting. Just in the narrower context of Argentina, it feels like Argentina has been teeter-tottering between two completely dysfunctional political variants. Basically, peronism and crazy-ass far-right stuff. And they sell them, if ever, pass through any kind of healthy, like, possible way to organize society. It's really heartbreaking. And that's one of the reasons why I'm interested in equity governance, which is how to navigate between them, because if you put equity along with, you know, a constellation of other virtues, if you can push equity forward in terms of fairness, negotiated the idea, it could help reduce the extreme vacillations, but we don't have the language to do it very well, because we get trapped in the ADD world of social media, and it just, you know, makes things worse. One thing I'm thinking, gosh, for the Meersheimer-Fiedmann podcast, for example, we can put it in Docsnip or whatever it's called, the thing that basically harnesses the transcript and marries it up to the video. So you could then search through the transcript. You could then probably feed the transcript and have it summarized back by chatGPT, which might be interesting. I already set up a GPT with the transcript in it. Well, how about that? Although it didn't work. Let me show you real quick. Intriguing, please. That's great. I think it's this one. It didn't work in an interesting way. So here's the transcript. It's about 33,000 words, I think. And it's kind of funny. I don't know how long that would take to read. I think it was about 90 minutes. So anyway, I, you know, I borrowed this from the Thursday OGM call GPT I did. It's just kind of generic. It's funny how I misspelled that. So it did something interesting, and this is interesting from the aspect of chatGPT and GPT is not the content, but it's actually doing just a simple text search here. And so it wrote some Python code to open the transcript. And then it's doing a search for society and structure in the chunks of the transcript. So somehow the file didn't run properly. So I tried it again and it kind of gave up at some point. So I may keep on working with this. We'll see. I'm actually super intrigued to see that this is this. This is not sophisticated at all. I, you know, I've written similar code actually for the similar purpose. That's interesting. But, um, But yeah, you could, it would be a good transcript to play with. If you get it working, send a ping. I'm interested. I think that's so critically important. Go ahead. I think it's critically important because, you know, everyone, and nobody's going to listen to a three hour. How many people are going to listen to it all? You know, that's one thing. So then the question is, well, you know, this is where some of these chat box might be helpful. So you could, you could one summarize it, then you could ask questions in a way that it could, it could answer the questions that you have rather than, you know, being in a simulation mode constantly, but you're actually in an inquiry mode. So I'd love to see what you can do with that. I did that with the Thursday call to two Thursdays ago or something like that. And I was, I was really amazed how an interactive, you know, interactive chat with the transcript was, I got a lot more out of that than I would reading a summary. And it, it draws you in, you know, you want to find out more and you, you kind of slice and dice it in different ways. And it lets you grab lots of the meat of the conversation in a way that I couldn't do it in any other way. It's really interesting. I'm interested in, or maybe a different way to say it. Well, actually, I don't know. The thing that I need from your books is, a better under better, more project management, I guess. So I would love to see, I think there's some things that the new books team, whoever that is, whatever that is, could be working on. And I feel like, you know, for, for me, it might be something like define the, define the technical publishing process that turns a, a Google doc into a set of markdown pages into, you know, a website and into a PDF and into an e-book. I would love to work on that project. I might need help. You know, we, we've, so we've been, we've been flying by the seat of our pants. We got through, you know, shepherding Klaus's book into existence, at least. I think if we were more deliberate about the kinds of things that, I guess. So for me, it would end up being a kind of a list of things that we wish we could do. And a lot of that would end up in a backlog. And then a few of those things would be on the active list. You know, so take the next step in defining the technical publishing process is a good, you know, project to be working on right now. Defined, you know, define what we think we want about the market, how, how we want marketing to work. You know. So more of that, I would love more of that. And of course I could help set some of that up. So this page, which I think you've seen before, is my attempt to, for a place for that conversation and those resources. I actually got a 404, which is, oh, it's because you need to put the, I, you know, when I clicked on it, the closing parenthesis falls off. Oh, that's weird. Does it work when you fix that? Yeah. Good. Cool. That's weird that it would fall off. Maybe it was not attached well. It's a bug in the way zoom chat parses. You are else. Gotcha. But this, this was an attempt. So the NIO books production plan, which is at this point that empty page, but that was, that was the placeholder for what you're talking about in the sense of actually building a plan and doing something there. And, and you and I had the beginnings of the conversation of how do we use massive to do that, I think. Yep. So I'd love to do more of that. This is awesome. I would like to do more working from a list like this and adding stuff to it and pruning it and prioritizing it and whatever. And you're in them in the OGM wiki. So happy to follow your lead or happy to, you and I can use some of our time together to, to flesh this out. That'd be great. Yeah, let's do that. So one thing that just one thing in terms of hearing two things. One is the sort of admin and development side of things. And then there is the actual doing it. And I think one thing that might generate interest is if I don't know whether you want to do alternate or whatever, but have something where you invite people in and promote something that somebody is going to present. So for example, if you were to do the first blog post on what the, what you proposing the obics to be, and we all sort of read that, you know, discussed it, use that conversation, you know, as a pre-publication thing, tweet it and whatever. And then, you know, say, okay, these are little micro doses of things that can build up over time and it can be very, you know, or even that article I just shared with you or anything where you're actually, you know, producing something that is a small stepping stone. So something to think about. I agree with you wholeheartedly. Thank you. And I'm, I think I have a variant of Pete's ADD. So I get distracted all the time on the stuff that doesn't lead to like simple substantive outputs like that. So I should sit down and do that. But now that we've got... Well, one thing I might ask you to do, which I think it's just nice to hold you accountable, okay, write this substrat article, but whenever you want to sometime in the future, and I'll try and be there and I'll certainly read it beforehand and provide feedback and then, you know, take it. And I think that would actually, you know, there's a lot of, you know, if you're, if you, as you well know, when you present something, you get so much more out of it. If you prepare for it in advance, whatever, it becomes a much more productive session. So anyway, the good news is that we record these sessions so that if I present something, I can take that clip and then put it into the page later. And then I've got a multimedia experience, blah, blah, blah. You're muted. No, exactly. Rick, what do you think about doing like a review? If Jerry, not to put a deadline, Jerry, but if you happen to write something by next Monday, what do you think Rick about putting 20 or 30 minutes on, on the agenda for next week's meeting? Just to go over that together. Which, which one thing, sorry. The blog post about what new books, you know, what Jerry wants out of new books, for instance. Oh, if he wants to, you're asking Jerry to present something next week. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I'm asking. Oh yeah. Oh, no, I know exactly. No, I think it'd be great. Because I think, you know, having a generous input, but then take it to the larger group as well. And, you know, to me, it's a question of creating enthusiasm around something that people feel like, you know, enthusiasm is a great attractor. So if you can, if you can harness the enthusiasm and people say, wow, this is cool, you know, then, you know, you draw people in. Jerry, I feel like another thing that we should do. You mentioned the AI hangout and build group. Who has the publishing press. It, it turned out that the group has less governance than it looked like it did kind of, which is fine. It's just coming together. I think there's an opportunity to, to suggest. Do it do a show tell with new books, I guess. So I was, I was wondering whether or not to do that. I was like, I was kind of holding back because I wanted to figure out what the group was like. Yeah, and it wasn't the right time. There wasn't the right meeting. Yeah. But with, with the leaders recent emails, she's, she's talking. She, she. So the, the really cool thing is she's got lots of energy and passion. And then we generated a bunch of just, you know, suggestions and then a lot of the kind of the, her replies to those suggestions was like, go for it guys, do it. And there are things that don't make sense to do that way for them. Choosing a chat, chat system was one of them. I had a bunch of suggestions, but, and, and she said, P, you should, you should pick. You've got a recommendation there. And I, I don't think I can. I don't think it's the right thing for me to do group wise. But I think it is the right thing for you or you and me or you and me and Rick. You don't have to join. But anyway, to present to, to this group, you know, hey, I think we should just, you know, we should just put our thoughts on this process. You know, can you help us write down more of the process as we help you, you know, execute that process? I think that would be a thing that they would be able to accept. And a thing that would help new books. Thank you. What is, what is this group? Is it, is it part of this group or separate group? And let me tell a little bit of a story around it. Since we've kind of, since I brought, we brought it back into the conversation. I'm going to look at it at a note thing I have. Into the, with all the excitement about generative AI, it's now kind of like a year or a year and a half later. There are a bunch of people like me who are jumping in and trying to figure out what to do with these tools. Is there a marketplace? How do we teach other people how to use these tools? All that kind of stuff. So, so right now I'm in, I'm in four groups that are something somewhere between mutual accountability groups and project teams and whatever. And one of the groups actually last, last week we had a great meeting where we kind of realized we don't know what we are. We don't know if we're an accountability group or a project team or what. And so let's actually start having a discussion of what that is. Right. This, this is yet another one of those. So the idea of the group that I just mentioned, it's called right now. It doesn't really have a name that the, the name on the email thread is AI, AI, Hangout and Build. And so, you know, we had a couple of people got super energized and said, you know, there's so much, so much we know, so much demand for information. So many new tools that can help us write quickly and, and organize effectively. We should be doing this. We should be writing something. We should be writing a thing together and make a, you know, and, you know, and then said them, we all got together. The founder and the co-founder kind of, you know, started writing that call. And she's like, I got a publishing press. Let's go. Let's write stuff and let's do it. And so. Coming into that call. It seemed like they had a lot of organization about what they wanted to do. Coming out of that call, it seemed more like they had a lot of passion and energy. And, and they didn't know that, that a bunch of us have, you know, tools or have been thinking about processes or, you know, even for keeping together, or publishing or writing or whatever. So, so it's a group that needs help. It needs Neil book's help. Neil book could use it as, as energy to feed more writing because this group wants to write a whole bunch fast. What day is the meeting? I don't think we have a next call. Was there a doodle sent? I forget. Yeah. Since I'm on four of these, I have like, I have no idea which meetings are where and when and where we're deciding what they are. Yeah. One of the four has like six subgroups. Thankfully, I'm only in one or two of the subgroups right now, but. Yeah. And we need an AI tool for organizing this, right? One of the co-founder. I'm going to be meeting with him Wednesday. He's like, Pete, I have a software engineer. We've got these GPTs. All we need to do is feed all the channels of information into the GPT and then have it organize this. Organize it and spit it back out. It makes a lot of sense actually when he says it. So I'm looking forward to that call. And my engineer is an expert on obsidian. He's kind of looking at this on an obsidian basis. Oh, wow. And I'm like, as it turns out. So you're like, yeah. Yeah. Man. Well, okay. We've only got a couple of minutes left in our normal appointed time. Anything else that makes sense to bring up now, or shall we wrap our, wrap this conversation? To recap next week. Yeah. You want to go first? Yeah. We kept next out. Jerry, you and I are going to do some project management hygiene around new books probably on Friday. Yep. Do you want. So out of that call, we could say, Hey, the Monday call we're going to be reviewing something or not. Yep. Do you want to pre-announce a review session before then? Or you don't know what you're going to be writing this week. Also Thanksgiving week. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we've had, we've held the OGM call on previous thanksgivings, right? I think it's early enough in the day that I think so. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm thinking of going ahead with it this Thursday. That doesn't seem to be a good read. There's a bunch of during pandemic. It was like an anti-loneliness kind of thing. Which made, which made a lot of sense. Now it's sort of interrupting giving, but if somebody wants to show up, I'm happy to sort of be there. You know, it's early enough on the West coast that. Yeah. It's early enough on the East coast. Not so much. Okay. And so I just put a link to the beginnings of this post basically that I've been writing in Obsidian on the wiki. And this is actually the intro to my Neo book. So, so this is the nugget that would have multiple lives. That I need to figure out exactly sort of how to tweak to make fit this context, but that, but that, that's where it's going. Thank you. Cool. I think I can do more of this and talk about it. So I'm pretty comfortable with doing that. And we're thinking that the best time, the best place to talk about it would be on the next Neo books call on Monday or one of our other calls. I think Neo books call. Cool. And Rick also kind of mentioned a, a sync way to do that, maybe take to involve more people. And I think that's smart too. Yep. But maybe after the next call. That sounds great. Ricky, we're going to say something. Yep. No, no, no, you address the issues. No, I just want to look at it and you know, I look forward to seeing how it evolves. Excellent. Me too. Thank you. And thank you both. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for now. Right now.