 Good evening, everyone. I am delighted to see so many friends of Cooper Hewitt in the Arthur Ross Reading Room tonight. Welcome. My name is Caroline Bowman, and I am the acting director here at Smithsonian's Cooper Hewitt National Design Museum. And I have to chuckle a little bit, because this was Marjorie Massinter's wonderful idea to celebrate the National Design Library. And we're having a few air conditioning problems. So I apologize in advance for that. And I hope you're not too warm. But just to give you a bit of an idea, once I introduce the speakers, they will be speaking together for about a half hour. And then we will allow for questions. And we're unveiling another beautiful space tonight, which is the trustee's dining room, which is right across the hallway from here, where we'll have a small reception. So there's more time to talk in there, and I promise you that it's cooler there as well. So for the history enthusiasts here tonight, the museum purchased this townhouse in 1995 and carried out a renovation project to actually merge it with the Miller House, which is next door and where you entered tonight. The Miller House is actually where Margaret Miller, who was the only child of Andrew Carnegie, lived with her husband. So there's a lot of history within these walls. Tonight is a really special evening for two reasons. First of all, we've just completed about two and a half months ago phase one of the most ambitious project in the history of Cooper Hewitt, which is our massive renovation, which you can guess by the scaffolding that completely covers the campus at the moment. You'll be happy to know that it's actually made of reconstituted Coke bottles. Phase one represented getting most of the collection out of these townhouses into another professional facility nearby and moving the staff for the first time in our history under this roof. So instead of having people nestled away in the library and other locations, we're really thrilled to all be working together for the first time. And we have all of the curatorial offices, the director's office, everybody here. So it's terrific. And this gorgeous National Design Library for our master students and anybody who would like to make an appointment with Steve or anyone on his team. Phase two of the project is the complete renovation of the mansion and the reinstallation of our exhibitions. We're working very closely with Diller's Gaffidio and Renfro on that re-envisioning of the campus. And we couldn't be more excited. So I look forward to welcoming you all back before 2014, but also for the grand reopening in May of 2014. The second reason this is a very, very special evening is because of our hosts, Edgar and Marjorie Massinter. True Smithsonian Gems. Edgar is telling me to hurry up on this part. But it's Marjorie and Edgar. Edgar is an alumni member of the Smithsonian National Board and current commissioner of the Smithsonian American Art Museum Board. Marjorie is a 1993 graduate of our master's program in decorative arts and design. Emeritus, excuse me, member of the Smithsonian Library's board and has been a dedicated volunteer and supporter of the Cooper Hewitt for years now. I'm very excited to say that she's been working for months doing research on the Hewitt sisters, which will be an invaluable part of our opening exhibition, one of our opening exhibitions, which will focus on the history of the Carnegie mansion and the Hewitt sisters. So thank you for that. I'm now delighted to introduce our speakers and our moderator. Gary Strong joins us from the West Coast tonight. He is the university librarian at UCLA, former director of the Queensborough Public Library, and state librarian of California. He has long been an advocate of reading and books, and his own collection focuses on artist's books, type design, paper making, and the book arts. Welcome, Gary. Stephen Van Dyke is the head of the Smithsonian Art Libraries, and we have been very lucky to have Stephen here based in New York City and caring for the National Design Library since 1988. Stephen has authored a number of books and curated several exhibitions, most recently a very popular one, entitled Paper Engineering, Fold, Pull, Pop, and Turn, which was at the Smithsonian's National Museum of American History. Nitsi Gwynn, our moderator this evening, joined the Smithsonian in 1984 and has been director of the Smithsonian Libraries since 1997. She is a recognized leader in international librarianship, the preservation of library collections, and the application of library technologies. Her most recent work is focused on aspects of the joint history of the Smithsonian and the Library of Congress. So please join me in welcoming our speakers, and I look forward to meeting you all over the reception following the talk. Thank you. Thank you, Caroline, and I want to give you a personal thank you for all of your support for the Smithsonian Libraries, and especially the museum's designation of this gorgeous space for the National Design Library. We couldn't be happier with how it looks. We love it when we see students in the chairs you're sitting in, and of course, we know how important it is to the museum and to the design community in New York, so thank you very much for all of that. Caroline has a librarian background also, and so we always feel quite an affinity with her. As she said, I'm Nancy Gwynn, and the director of the Smithsonian Libraries, and for those of you who don't know, the Smithsonian Libraries is a network of libraries. There are 20 libraries that are part of the Smithsonian and all of the museums and research centers of the Smithsonian. Most of them are, of course, in Washington where the museums are, but we have outposts like the Cooper Hewitt National Design Museum and also in Panama, the Smithsonian Tropical Research Institute. We have a Smithsonian Environmental Research Center out on Chesapeake Bay. There's a lovely library there, and we are very pleased that we are able to provide these libraries with the kind of central support, administrative support, and behind the scenes support so that the staff in the actual libraries can spend the bulk of their time providing services to all the people who come and use the libraries, and we're very pleased about that. Steven, of course, has been with the libraries since 1988. In fact, I think I hired Steven in 1988. It's my fault, okay. And I think you were at the New York Public Library before that, were you not? Don't forget your microphone. Yes, I was at the New York Public Library for about four years, and before that, many years in schools of architecture, so I have been a art librarian for about 38 years, totally. And so the Smithsonian Libraries has five art libraries, and we have recently organized them into a department, and Steven was the logical choice to be the first department head, and he's been working very hard to develop some cooperative activities and services so that they all support one another. Now, Gary and I are longtime friends and acquaintances. In fact, I learned, among many things, I think I knew this, but I learned it again, that he got his library degree at my alma mater, the University of Michigan, just two years before I did, but he's just announced his retirement. Oh dear, what does that mean? I'm still planning to plug in along here for a few more years, but Gary, as you said, has a very interesting background, and I think one of the things that you should know about him is how active he's been in international library circles, particularly in the International Federation of Library Associations, where I also have done a lot of work, and he and I were in a group that traveled to Russia several years ago in a splendid tour that was given to a group of librarians who were helping to open centers for the book in Russia in all of the provinces and states, so we've even traveled together and we're still friends. Isn't that wonderful? So I want to thank also Margie and Edgar, thank you so much for doing this. Margie has been a wonderful supporter. She was one of the founding members on the Smithsonian Libraries Board, and she was one of our cheerleaders and helped us get organized and has continued to be very much a supporter of us and the Cooper Hewitt, so we're very fortunate and thank you so much for this evening. Okay, I want us to mention that also here from Washington is the Deputy Director of the Smithsonian Libraries, Mary Augusta Thomas here, and of course you'll see the other Cooper Hewitt Library staff around the edges. I don't see them in the room at the moment, and I also don't see Tina Morocco, there she is, she's standing outside who is the Director of Development for the Library, so she'll be meeting some of you. And we also have some of our other board members, Hope Perth is here, and Roland De Silva in the back, thank you for coming as well. Well we are all in library land in a big transition. We are all facing a lot of environmental change for libraries, not the least of which is all of the technology that's now available, but also the staffing and the use of libraries is changing. Some libraries, there are very different kinds of libraries of course, and some libraries have already disappeared in this new world. But many of us feel that we have a lot of life left in us for a lot of years, and I think we're gonna talk a little bit about some of that tonight. Gary has worked in many different kinds of libraries. We share also the fact that we're both from the West, so he knows a lot about Western libraries, and I want to ask him actually, like Gary, how do you view the library of the future? Do you think we're all going to survive? I'm not terribly sure that we will all survive, but I do think if we think hard and we work hard around our collective futures that the whole essence of the library and what we stand for is going to survive. As I've worked to re-envision an academic research library at UCLA, which was viewed very much as a place that was sort of dying on a campus, I have had some firsthand feelings about how to re-engage and how to think about the future of libraries, and one of the things that we have said in our strategic plan is that we believe that the library of the future inspires and supports students, faculty, researchers, and staff in all facets of their pursuits to dream, learn, create, and share knowledge. And when we stop thinking about the library as that repository of knowledge, whether it's in the books that we still maintain, even though we do heavy digitization and link to literally hundreds of thousands of electronic resources, the book collection in my 10 years at UCLA has grown from seven and a half million volumes to 10 and a half million volumes. And it is about this, not what do we replace, but what do we add? How do we preserve the context of collections and particularly the specialized resources that each of our libraries have in one way or another, whether we're big, small, or otherwise. The other dimension, I'll just mention three other dimensions, one is how we interact with teaching and learning. And we have moved, and you have that role here, to beginning to look at how the library fosters a spirit of inquiry and analysis through engagement with primary sources, advanced technologies, events, and demonstrations. And it is the primary resources that really are the emphasis of that particular statement, making student research widely visible and accessible, encouraging interdisciplinary connections, and we do that and you do that here. And then modeling ethical participation in civic and local engagement. We also embrace new styles of research. We're creating an interdisciplinary ecosystem that supports the entire research life cycle on the campus. You're very much involved in research and in bringing the resources out so that they are more seen all the time. You can't do that if you've destroyed the past. You can't do that if, in fact, you don't embrace and look at new ways of accomplishing that because we work with people today who think somewhat differently than I certainly do with all the new technologies that are there. But it's about space and place. It's both the place we're sitting in tonight. We've re-envisioned our research library, for example. We didn't throw the books away. We've gotten many of them still there, but we've created new collaborative spaces. Spaces that allow for people to look at us as a destination. And as I walk through those new spaces, we've been open about a year now with the new spaces that we're experimenting with. Uses about double what it used to be. And I'm seeing faculty and students coming together in whole new ways. Faculty treated us kind of like a 7-Eleven. They ran in, they grabbed their quart of milk, they took it back and drank it in their office. Today they come in, they grab a cup of coffee, they meet their students there, they hold their classes there. One of my favorite stories is about our classics, one of our senior classics professors who was meeting her senior seminar out in an open pod in the new research commons. And when she was asked if she wouldn't be more comfortable in one of the classrooms, she looked at the young lady and she says, "'Absolutely not. "'If I'm out here, they might discover "'we still teach classics here.'" And so it's about how do we re-engage, how do we think about this future of all these resources, this incredible heritage that libraries have painstakingly brought together over all of these years into these new spaces, into an environment which we're able to expose to students in new and different ways. I mentioned that primary sources issue a little bit before. And we now require a capstone project of every graduating senior from UCLA. 80% of them are research papers and they must draw on original source or primary source material as the major part of that research project. We're trying to prepare the next generation of scholars. If we allow ourselves to be satisfied that the next generation of scholars are only gonna use iPhones and iPads, what will we have? How will we actually then perpetuate scholarship, create new knowledge, and engage ourselves in determining our futures beyond what the talking heads tell us we have to think about? So yeah, I think there's a roll. Ha ha ha ha. Phew. I'm so happy to hear that. We at the Smithsonian Libraries, we also have about two million volumes, but you'd never know it because of course they're housed out in all these 20 libraries. And even in the separate buildings, they're housed in many, many spaces. So we never have a view of that as a whole, but we know that from our database. But when you think of the individual libraries like the National Design Library, that's very specialized, that has a very targeted audience, although we're learning more and more about how broad that audience is, then you wonder, well, how does that kind of a library fit into this picture? Stephen, do you have some thoughts about that? That's my cue here. I have to say that I think both Nancy and Gary and I are truly book lovers, and I guess you may thought that I was, and I hope that we will continue to make this that collection of primary sources. First of all, you have the opportunity tonight after we talk to go across our reference area and see some of those primary sources firsthand in what we call the North Reading Room. I can't tell you how much I am happy to be here in this place because it is a special place. Special libraries and our libraries have a special future that I can see in many, many reasons. In the 30-some years I've worked in art libraries, I have seen the act of publishing in the arts really become better, and if you think about some publications that go back to the early 20th century, you know, the color wasn't quite right, the photographs in the things really didn't match, and we are in a good time for publishing. So as you look at things that are coming out, even in 2012, we have 30 to 40 years of wonderful publications in design, and there's many reasons for this. You know, in the old days they called design minor arts, they called them applied arts. We were sort of an appendage to, we were sort of an appendage to this idea of the art library, but now we're becoming more center stage. We have the wonderful Parsons program, which Margie was a part of, and we are now 30 years into that, so we have new scholars that are coming out that are learning about design and decorative arts. This museum has been, as created more than 100 years ago by the Hewitt sisters, had a really good purpose, and that purpose still exists today, and that is we look at objects and we try to create accessibility. Accessibility is a key element for us, and the library is very, very connected to the curatorial departments. The other thing about this collection and many art collections since I'm responding to that, many of these books that are published even 20 years ago have great relevance. The monograph still exists, and it's really a major source for many people to use it. They're not only being reproduced, but in better ways. There's a scholarship that's coming into this, but it is the time that these things are coming, and this special place is gathering them and using them. A strong connection with our Parsons program is great. The one thing about art libraries, however, is the fact that 90% of our collection is visual. We are people who look at the visual, and many of our books, by their very nature, are mostly pictures, and that is a very research important tool. As we look to electronic resources, we are still pretty much saying that the book is a great source for making those visual materials readily available. They are not only documents of information, but they themselves in this library are artifacts. So we are special because we collect the book as an information tool, but we also collect it because it is an artifact. And what does that mean? It's just fine bindings and things. We have a strong connection to doing exhibiting work, and that's part of our role, and that will be the continuing thing. We think that researchers, whether from the public or the Parsons program or from our curators, learn from the physical presence of the book, and this is something I hope we will continue. It was our hope of our founders that this would be, and it's the hope I think that we will continue. Will the book survive? I think the answer is yes. In art libraries, we're approaching that crossroads as other disciplines start to go into it in a greater length. It is the visualness of the art book that has us going slower into that digital world. We are not ignoring it, and there's some things that are really good. Our reference books, our indexes, wonderful resources online. But when we come to the monograph, the art book, here we have a wonderful resource, and I think there is definitely a future here. We do look at books as artifacts, and they're very important to us, and I'll just give you one element of our future since we're talking about the future of the book. Gary mentioned that he was a collector of artist books. Now artist books are a new element within the art library community. All of the Smithsonian Institution Library art libraries are starting to look at these special artifacts that are artist books. Just Saturday, I went over to the art book fair in Long Island City. It was amazing. If one could see that this idea of collecting books is for old people, it isn't. It is a place where the artist, there was 200 vendors there, and the creativity in the art book was amazing. I was the old guy. There was people there three deep, and I'm just saying that is a future for many of us to look at artist books and what our role is in the Smithsonian libraries and hear. Future for the book? You betcha. I had a comment. It occurred to me as you were speaking, Stephen, that we think of people who work in the digital media and in digital scholarship as not revering the book. And one of the things that's happening in our new spaces is that because we have the kind of collection that we do, the faculty that are working with students in digital humanities, for example, like our place because they can show a student the original artifact, whether it's a manuscript or a map or an art book or an art object or whatever, and then they can work with it in its new digital form and create new kinds of renderings or new views or three dimensional whatever they call it. I'm not scientific enough to know how to describe it that way, but they can move down through it and in it and out of it. But that student having that tactile ability to actually hold a rare object, to see it in its original form so that they can see its heritage, its place in history, those are really powerful teaching and research tools. That's the advantage that we have of looking at this in a more holistic kind of way as we move forward. But Gary, you brought up the always big gorilla in the room, which is digitization. And what does that do in terms of libraries? In our case, we have been digitizing a great deal in scientific works that support biodiversity studies. We have something called the Biodiversity Heritage Library, which now people all over the world in the developing world in particular have access to libraries of books that they never were able to get to because there aren't big libraries in some of those places and there aren't libraries that contain the books about the flora and fauna of their own country. So having started this project, we get testimonials from people in places like Africa and Brazil who thank us for doing this because they never thought they'd see certain things. And now we've started a cultural heritage library and we've done about 3,500 books and many of them are from the collection here. In fact, the number one downloaded book, I believe, is from the Cooper Hewitt. That is correct. And it is a book about porcelain and pottery marks that was published in before 1923. That's right. It's out of copyright. And I got some statistics recently that said there had been over three million downloads of those books. So I feel strongly that in addition to our having these wonderful collections, we're now able to share these treasures with the world and especially the American people who of course really own these books along with all the treasures of the Smithsonian. So Gary, what are you doing along these lines and do you see this having an impact on your student body and the way they use your collections? It absolutely is. The University of California, for better or worse, got into bed with Google for a while and discovered they weren't the best bed partner in the world because the authors eventually sued and much of what was digitized is not accessible. So we've concentrated on things in the public domain as well. We've done close to 250,000 items in the public domain. Those are all up and accessible. We're experiencing the same kind of thing. We have an historic children's collection, for example. And the Pussycat and the Owl published in 1893 with its original drawings is there. It's been downloaded two and a half million times that one item. And so these things absolutely do blow out and extend. The other side of this is digitizing portions of our hidden collections, our special collections. And we've very recently started a project with the National Library of Israel, for example, to digitize ephemera in Israel and host it on our websites, on our servers here. And then the items in our Jewish collections will be, certain of those will be digitized and they will have accessibility to those in Israel as well. And theirs will cover not just Hebrew materials, but Arabic and other diaspora languages and cultures and whatnot across Israel. Why Israel? It's very interesting and I'll introduce this topic because they have an intellectual property regime. They have copyright laws that are very similar to the United States. And so when we talk about exchange of material and particularly visual material that we can digitize, we are in familiar territory. And the other big project we've done which isn't in familiar territory is that we captured, we have a faculty that have captured all of the Terere Square documents and social networking exchange prior to the Arab Spring. And all of that is now going to be accessible as well. And I just visited with a young exile from Iran not too long ago who has collected, while he was in exile in Malaysia, material on the green movement in Iran just before the last elections. So it's about digitizing what we have but it's also recognizing that a lot of stuff is born that way. It never was in print, never will be in print. And that's why I said to me it's very much about not replacing but how do we repurpose and add and do new things. We're not throwing away the stuff we digitize either. It's still there. So that 80% of what you cannot look at in Google other than buy a little snippet, you can still borrow from us because we own it. And it's still in the collection. And so this broader preservation issue about adding to the kaleidoscope of what's available. How do we, and we're not interested, I'm not, in bringing all that ephemera from Israel to UCLA. I want them to keep it, make the commitment that they're gonna keep their national heritage. They're gonna preserve it, they're gonna do the things that are necessary with it. And I have a question for Steven but I wanna ask a question of all of you first. How many of you have kindles or iPads and you read on them? Yes, in every airplane I get on, I see more and more of these. I do not take my underwear instead of six books. But I think that all of us are reading things that you would normally carry a paperback for. So the question is the scholarly book, the scholarly book that our users use all the time. And in the art world, there are probably other copyright issues, Steven, are there not? Yes, I first wanna say that we are also contributing to this idea of digitizing our collection. You have to share your treasures and we have many of them and we are finding that this is adding to the great understanding of design and decorative arts. I recently attended a seminar at the Metropolitan Museum of Art which actually was on art books and e-books. We are definitely in the race to make sure that we get e-books as part of our either making them or being part of them. But we are slow to do it because of certain elements. Almost every other discipline because of the fact that they are heavily in the text area and not as visual as our collections are moving ahead or shall we say, there's many more of those. The issues that we have are because of this high amounts of visual materials which require a lot of idea that this is something you're going to be able to read and it's going to be factually and color correct online. The other thing is that we also have a lot of books that are very oversized. These are folio books that have foldouts in them and somehow or another they do work well in the book and can possibly go to the e-book but we're not quite there yet. I would say that some of the issues that deal with a lot of this have to do with licensing. There's lots of illustrated material that is requiring that licensing. So it is not an easy process mainly because many of our books have this high and visual sense to them. And so we're there. We're going there. We want to share these things. And as this seminar said in many ways is that the RTE book is coming and it's going. For example, at the Metropolitan Museum of Arts Watson Library which has 400,000 volumes or so, they are starting. They have about 70 original e-books that are going and they are picking things that are more textual and have less visual things and they're making the plunge there. Columbia University is now I guess making 24% of their acquisitions for monographs in e-books but in the art library it's about 2%. All I have to say is that we're eager to make our collections accessible. That's what librarians do. And it's a path that we're going to get to eventually. I'd also make a comment that you ask about the usage. And we've done some surveys and studies because we also have e-books of course. And we found that the least accepting group between undergraduates, graduate students and faculty for e-books was undergraduates. And that really surprised me. As I walk through the new space, one of my favorite pictures is the young woman I saw one day and now I'm spotting it more and more and more as I walk through. I'm a real wanderer. They're gonna arrest me one of these days. I suppose for suspicion of stalking or something. But I go and observe and I asked this young lady one day because she had her laptop open in the reading room on her lap in front of her. She's in one of the lounge chairs and she's reading a book. I said, I don't understand. What's going on here? She says, oh, I'm brewing my assignment. I said, well, why is your computer open? I'm following Facebook. I don't study on my computer. I keep up with my friends. And some of, I think as oldies have rushed to judgment a little bit sometimes because these kids are so tied to these electronic things. And we've stopped short of asking them what they use those electronic things really for. And where do they do their studying? Where do they get their information? How do they do what it is that they do? And I think we have a lot more to learn yet about the use of these sorts of things. Well, I agree. But Gary, what about the publishers? The publishers seem to be either running scared or they're charging extraordinary amounts. And then some publishers refuse to even let libraries subscribe to eBooks. What do we do about them? Well, I think the publishers are running scared. I also think that most of them are being run as businesses, not publishing houses anymore. And so they're looking at bottom line. Not how do you get the book, if you will, or what's in the book out to the reader. And I think they're being very short-sighted and I think it'll come back and bite them on the heiny. And I hope the teeth go deep. Because it is about, and I spent a lot of years in a public library out in Queens. And we were the busiest library in the United States because we put books in people's hands. And they read them voraciously. Our average book was circulated a hundred times. Well, some of these eBook publishers now, St. Martin's and some others, you can circulate that eBook 26 times or three times in the case of certain academic eBooks that we're now having to buy. We can actually only use those three times before we have to buy another copy. And the whole underlying principle behind this marketplace in the United States was the first sale doctrine. Once we bought that journal, put it on the shelves, once we bought that book and put it on the shelves, it was ours and our faculties and our students or our general publics to use the whole time that we had it. And when you begin to commoditize that kind of access, I think we haven't had the national debate that really speaks to what is access and what is the fundamentals of the doctrines we've used to create and share information and make it accessible through our libraries. Increasingly, we don't own journal literature unless we buy it on top of buying access. And much of that is done under commercial law, not under the old principle of you buy it and you can use it. We are also pushing aggressively open access so that faculty, for example, with scholarly articles are encouraged to put those into open access repositories so that we can access them at no cost. To give you a comparison, within the University of California, the 10 of us put our money together to license the big scientific journal packages. It costs us $55 million a year to license scientific material, mostly, and medical material. Some social science, some humanities material for the 208,000 students within the University of California. This is not a small business and these are not academic publishers. They're not the scholarly societies that used to govern how of publishing, how academic publishing would work. It's a very different marketplace today, very different climate. Yeah, and of course, you work and it goes to science, the scientific side, of course, to get the journal. That's right. So they're taking the, also, the differences, they're taking the money from the institution. But to do that, I think that's horrible. Well, it is a pattern that is growing and as publishers have become conglomerates and more concerned about the bottom line than anything else, then the library, they used to have a built-in market with libraries because they knew libraries when they bought a journal, they'd just keep buying it. But libraries are now rebelling against that, aren't they, Gary? We sure are. And we have certain faculty that are ready to work with us to embargo. We've had this ongoing discussion and I'm not supposed to talk about it, but I will. With a major publisher starting with Ann and ending in E that wanted to clip us for about a 300% increase in subscription prices. We did some analysis and faculty from the University of California contribute 18% of the content in nature magazines, nature journals. And we got no credit for that. And so we've now in the middle of this discussion we've been talking about, okay, what is the value of the intellectual peer-reviewed content that scholars are creating in our universities, in our research centers, in our special libraries and contributing to these journals? That they for the most part get no, I mean, they're not making big royalties on any of this. Anybody thinks they're gonna make a lot of money writing a scholarly article? I have another fantasy to share with you. How about a bridge? A local bridge. But you know, it's a huge, this marketplace issue of, and I think your point is right on, Nancy, in asking the question, because most of our publishers today are not publishers, they're corporations. Most of the big journal companies are international. They're no longer based even in the United States or the UK. And so they operate under very different rules, very different business practices. And at some point, I think they will abandon us and leave us because the marketplace will have dried up and then what do we do? We're not making plans for that. That's a shame. So we want to allow some questions from the audience if you have any. So, yes, right here. One question, just to Steve. Yes. Working internationally, working with the V&A, I would think that they have so much to offer and then they must be looking into the digitization and maybe even ahead. One of our best pals. Actually, the V&A has, it's a much bigger library, but it's more historic and they are doing some digitization for sure. We do know about these things. We are trying to link in to teach our students to get into those. And we are letting them know that we are doing the same. So it's a good exchange of information. They're sort of the big guy and we're some sort of the smaller guy, but we do have a good relationship with them. And I think that's a good future. I think you brought up a good point and that's the whole idea of collaboration among libraries. I mean, I think librarians as a whole are collaborators. We go back a long time. Two things we like to do is make things accessible. We love facilitating research. And I think there's a future within the arts groups, the V&A and others that we will start to collaborate. And we have a wonderful group, which is called RLESS or the Art Libraries Group. And we talk about how can we do things together? Sharing information is a big one. Yes, over here. How are you explaining the relationship to the future between the university and the classroom? Did everybody hear that question? It's how do you explain the, for the people on the film, it's how do you explain the relationship between the universities, the book and the classroom? That is changing as rapidly as everything else. Textbook prices are a major concern among our students. We've taken a couple of approaches and there have been talk about legislation about electronic tax books, but I'm always a little suspicious of some of that. Legislators aren't always the best solutions to the problems that we face. We've done several initiatives. When we license, for example, part of our license allows our faculty to include an article from a licensed journal into a printed course pack. A lot of faculty don't use textbooks. They'll use a compilation of articles from various different things or chapters from books or whatnot. So wherever we can, we upfront license that right. And what we discovered was our student bookstore that was printing these up, didn't know that and were paying fees to the Copyright Clearance Center for the use of that article and we'd already paid for it once. And so we now have a direct link to them and they work with my staff in clearing all of that and we've saved students anywhere from $3 to $80 per course pack in reducing that cost. I'm working with our provost right now. We have an initiative we're going to start experimenting with which will give, he's an old English researcher, so English history researcher, so he calls it a bribe, I call it a stipend, to faculty who would revise their required reading schedules to all open access material, things we don't have to pay for. And then the third is that many universities, faculty, have adopted open access policies where they deposit their own work in their institutional repository and you see faculty are now considering that on a system-wide basis as well. That's not going to eliminate, it's going to provide more alternatives because there will still be the need for peer-reviewed published scholarly literature. My concern is that the monograph is moving to the point in some cases where I most fear it'll disappear rather than be alternatively published. And that worries me, I think, even more. So this is a changing world. Our bookstore is dropping off in their sales, in their profits, frankly, because of Amazon. I sit on the University of California board of directors for the press. And of our non-library sales, now 78% goes through Amazon. The individual independent bookstore, which five years ago was about half of that, is now virtually gone. Barnes & Noble makes up maybe 12% of that, something like that. It's a huge changing marketplace. Over here. I wonder if maybe all of you can speak to this question which is, are you planning for off-site access of material, people accessing, being able to borrow collections from their own computers? Are we planning for off-site access to our materials? I'm not quite certain what you mean by that. We have collections that are off-site. And in fact, often we will, if somebody wants something from that repository, we'll scan it and send it to them if we can, rather than sending them the book. But I don't think that's what you mean. No, I mean being able to access library materials from your own home. You mean borrow a book to be sent to you directly at your own home? Yes, journal. Yes and no. Where we own the rights, or we've negotiated the rights, we've negotiated the right to deliver that, in our case, to any faculty member or student or staff member within the University of California. In addition, those items in our collections, which we have digitized and we now have, before last week we had about a million images up that were mostly print material, a print material. We just added the communications archives off-air broadcasting. We now have just under 10 billion images up that are accessible and can be downloaded. Where we own the rights to those, we post everything we can under a Creative Commons license. And a Creative Commons license is an international license that allows for educational use of the material but restricts commercial exploitation of the material. And let me be very specific. We had a publisher who published about 50 images from our photographic collection. Did not pay us the royalty rights to do that. We sued them and won. And they now pay us a royalty on all of that for their commercial use of parts of our collection that, and I love this one because it was a company that has charged us through the nose for access to publish after certain rights of their publications. And so it was like in your face, thank you very much. And I think more and more of that will go. The Israel material will all be open access. All of our, where we have the rights for things in the public domain, those are all open access that anybody can use them under Creative Commons license. There's two points of exciting news and it's always good to have good news. One of them is the fact that we're working very closely with the Cooper Hewitts and trying to make some of our publications from the Cooper Hewitt full text and online and go to the website. You will be surprised how many wonderful full text things that we have going back to the Cooper Union days when there was exhibitions and we're continuing to do it. That's a start on wonderful access to information that you can get at your, from your home. The second thing is that we are digitizing some of those treasures and we are using something called Internet Archive which is also accessible to you at home and you can see full text things. For example, if you want to go cover to cover on our first edition of Chippendale, you can do that at your kitchen table. And so, as they say, we're moving in that direction. Accessibility is a big part of what we wanna do. Yeah. We just put up the Internet Archive. You reminded me of 28 of Leonardo da Vinci's sketchbooks. They're all on Internet Archive. Anybody can look at them, anybody can see them. But we're also beginning to experiment with print on demand and with an outside source again. And we're providing the files of the books that we've digitized and those then can be ordered. A lot of them are ordered again through Amazon and they're pretty cheap actually. We just have to make sure they're in the public domain and we don't get into trouble. We're only being sued about nine times these tired days. And when I went to UCLA, we weren't sued by anybody and today we retain lawyers. And yes, anything that we've digitized full text you can go to and see from your home computer and download it to your own computer if you want to and keep it and use it. And public libraries also, you can borrow copyrighted material under whatever regulations they have at home. So yes, you can get a lot of stuff. Well, and when I was in Queens, we licensed all these same databases that I was talking about within the university and anyone who had a Queens Library borrowers card could access those from home. Queens, for example, does. I don't know what New York public does. I've not tied in with that anymore. But a lot of the electronic books that they license, you can download and read on your home computer. So look at what your local public library is doing as well as what is happening in the educational and research side of the world. Well, we could talk about this all night. I think we have time for just one more question and I've identified the questioner before we want to have time for you to have some refreshments in the trustees room and also to talk individually with our guests tonight. So your last question. That's you. What about the inter-life? It is if you're borrowing things that, again, were purchased under what I now call the old regimes. A library is precluded under certain contracts from lending either journal articles outside of the group they've licensed for. And in the case of these emerging electronic book contracts for public libraries, they can't loan them at all. They can't even retain them for their collection. And so my question is of a lot of this new literature that's coming out, these new things with Noble Library has the right to preserve any of that. What happens to our literary culture five, 10, 20 years down the road? What happens to our history, to our biography, to the things that now about the only place you can get a lot of the times is the library? Okay. So you mean art materials in particular? So you mean art materials in particular? I hope we want to be the next biodiversity thing. We surely do. I mean, again, my colleague Jennifer Coleman, who's right here tonight, and I have talked at length, how do we do this? We see these science biodiversity collaboration going so well. It's something we do want to do. And how are we doing that is the fact is that we are talking among ourselves a little bit on who has what, what is the most valuable, what is demand things. As I said, we have chosen something called the Internet Archive, not as a library group per se, but as a place where we can put all these things. And that we do know amongst the library groups kind of what people are doing. And we do have maybe in an informal way of going, but you bring up a good point. We should be doing more collaboration. Amongst the Smithsonian art divisions, I think we have a lot. That is a start. We are collaborating with cross-searching, where we're connecting things from the archives of American art, the objects within the museum themselves, and all of the libraries. It's wildly successful and a good model that we would go. Yes, and just one other comment we'll draw to a close. The problem with digitizing art materials is that the illustrations in art materials have different copyright rules than the text. So that the author of the book or the publisher may only have the rights to have that art illustration one time in that text. And if somebody comes and digitizes it and starts spreading it all over the world, that's when you can get sued. So that's what holds us back. Well, thank you all for coming. There's a lot of refreshment available. Thanks to our.