 Good morning, and welcome to the second meeting of the Education, Children and Young People Committee in 2022. This is a virtual meeting. The first item on our agenda is consideration of subordinate legislation, the education miscellaneous amendments coronavirus Scotland number two regulations 2021. The regulations are being considered under the negative procedure. Do members have any comments on the instrument? There are no members who wish to make any comment on the instrument. Is the committee agreed that it does not wish to make any recommendation in relation to the instrument? Are we agreed? We are agreed. Thank you very much. We will now move on to the second agenda item for our meeting, which is an evidence session looking at how schools are coping with the start of term in the context of the high numbers of Covid cases as a result of the Omicron variant. To that end, the committee warmly welcomes Douglas Hutchison, president of the Association of Directors of Education, and Education Director of Education Glasgow City Council. Good morning, Douglas. Greg Demster, the general secretary of the Association of Headteachers and Deputies Scotland. Good morning, Greg. Simon Cameron, chief officer employer's team at the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, COSLA. It's in to you, Simon. We also welcome Margaret Wilson, who is chair of the national parent forum of Scotland. Good morning to all of you. Thank you for giving up your time to be with us and to help us with this session. As I said earlier, it is focused on what has happened at the start of this term. If I may start the questioning to COSLA in particular, I am addressing this question primarily to Simon, but others may come in and comment if they wish. Your written submission to us for this session today talks about how the budget has been baselined for additional teachers and how individuals will be employed on permanent or temporary contracts as appropriate to the role and identified needs of services. Can you just talk me through, Simon, how your members will make decisions about whether a contract should be permanent or temporary? Hi there, thanks, convener. Can you hear me now? Yes, I can, and we see you as well. Good. Did you get the drift of my question about contracts? Yes, so how people will work through making people temporary or permanent? Yes, that's right. There will be a play in terms of the requirements until the young people end the learning that's required, but also the numbers that are associated in a school of young people who are there. Obviously, from individual council's point of view, there are a large number of active permanent posts across the country. One of the challenges that we face is often that we are trying to take permanent posts across the country, particularly when we get to rural areas and so forth. We don't get quite the level of applications for those roles. In terms of going through a productive process in understanding what a temporary contract is, it will be based on all the local factors in relation to the school role, the requirements of the children and young people, the needs that they have in terms of their learning, whether it be additional support learning that they need, whether that be a teaching requirement, whether that be a sport-assisted requirement that's involved there. It will also need to do with factors such as those who are already on staff, those who may be retiring, and indeed what you would call in any organisation a natural wastage of individuals who may be move on and leave and go to other roles as well. It will also be in terms of individual's progressions. A broad range of factors that are any factors that would be involved in employment across any field for a large scale organisation to consider what is the most appropriate contract for an individual to be on. Clearly, what we can't do is offer people permanent contracts where there is not a permanent say required. That's where the decision would be a temporary long-term, short-term or indeed if there is a permanent requirement, we would make a permanent appointment to that. A broad range of factors would go into deciding what's appropriate for each individual establishment. We would also be down to factors such as what type of process the council has in place, some have different setups where they would have what you may call area covers, so they would have pools of staff, etc. Yet, again, it's about the intake and natural wastage succession, etc, that would be involved in any process. The reason I want to get to the bottom of this is because, obviously, the morale of teachers is a very important consideration for all of us. Teachers, inspirational teachers are exactly what we need in all of our classrooms across Scotland at all levels of education. When the announcement was made about the baseline money being consolidated and made permanent, it seems to suggest that there was some form of agreement between the Scottish Government and COSLA that money would be used to recruit teachers or cement teachers on permanent contracts. Is that right? Was there an agreement between the Scottish Government and COSLA that the money would be used in that way? There was an agreement that the money would be used to make sure that the appropriate levels of staff were in the appropriate places across the country. In terms of the money being baselined, obviously, any organisation, whether it be for teaching or any other type of role that we've got, would go through the process, as I've described, to say what are the requirements of that organisation? How do we bring people and how do we place them in the correct place? Was it understood by COSLA that the Scottish Government was giving the money to the local authorities for those contracts to be made permanent? Was that implicit in the discussions between the Scottish Government and COSLA? It was understood that the money would be given so that we could put in place the appropriate employment contracts for individuals across the country. That would include permits, but it would also include temporary. It has to be a process that you work through properly so that, in terms of employment law, we have people on the right types of contracts that are being taken. Has COSLA or its individual members been asked to provide any kind of report directly on the way that this money is being used to make teachers contracts permanent? Is there a reporting mechanism? Absolutely. There are reporting mechanisms happening. They happen, of course, as a matter anyway, but, particularly through the Covid experience and the rest of the money that we've been provided by the Scottish Government, we have been asked to provide reports. That is something that is actively happening in the rest, yet, again, part of the process is obviously the money coming through and into the system to then make sure that we can put people onto the appropriate contracts. That money is there. People are now working through the process and the other side of the process is that they need to do a recruitment process. You need to go through and make sure that the person that you are appointing is fit and proper for that role and has the skills and experience that you require in that area, whether that be subject matter at secondary or, obviously, the appropriate level at primary. Has COSLA issued guidance to its members that this money should be used for this purpose and not simply be, as it were, folded into the budget? In other words, it is not being used to compensate for reductions that might occur in other aspects of budgeting? No, it is very clear. The agreement with the money coming into COSLA on the process that we go through—sorry, the money going out to councils in the rest—is very clear that that is for employment purposes and employment purposes only. That is what people will be using the money for. Have you personally been involved in any discussions with the Scottish Government about reducing the number of temporary teacher contracts? Last summer, it was one in eight of our teachers were on temporary contracts. Have you personally or any of your members been involved in discussions with the Scottish Government about reducing that number? We are involved all the time. We are engaged with the Scottish Government in terms of looking at the recruitment that is required across Scotland and we are actively seeking to ensure that we have the appropriate numbers of teachers and in the appropriate places across Scotland. Before we hit the pandemic, we had issues of looking at where teachers were applying for posts. We still, throughout the pandemic, not only in teaching but in other areas as well have that need to make sure that we get all parts of Scotland to be able to apply and to fulfil the rules. That is an active part of what we continuously do with the Scottish Government. The level of temporary contracts in Scotland last summer was one in eight. That is pretty much double what it was a decade before. Last summer, the money that we had received was temporary. You could not employ somebody in any field unless your money was a baseline. The money is now a baseline, so we are now actively working through it, and teachers will be using that money to take people into their appropriate employment contract. However, as I said, it is very clear that you still need to go through a fit and proper process for employment as you do it in any field. I think that anyone in our community would expect that we have done so and that we have the right job. There are teachers at work today in classrooms across Scotland who have been on temporary contracts. The Scottish Government's intent was that the baseline money would translate those temporary contracts where it is appropriate. I grant you that by providing, but the intention was that those contracts would become permanent. Our committee is very interested to make sure that the taxpayers' money is being used for the purposes that we would all like to see it used for. We are talking about the wellbeing of teachers. Let me ask you another question in relation to teachers wellbeing. You mentioned that in your paper to us. Thank you for your paper, but you mentioned that in your paper. Do you recognise the issue that was raised a couple of weeks ago in the Glasgow evening times in relation to the number of days that has lost mental health issues among teachers? It said that, since 2017, that figure would amount to 1,500 years of lost teacher dates due to mental health issues. What factors do you attribute to that particular issue? I suppose that there are a great many factors that would be attributable to that situation at this moment in time. I do not know the article that you are referring to specifically. I have not read it in detail, so I will be able to comment on it directly. Clearly, across the piece, there are pressures in the system. There have been pressures in our system for a long time because of the levels of funding that we have been receiving, et cetera. That has undoubtedly led in all fields for people to have increased workloads. We are obviously very actively looking at what we can do to reduce teacher workloads. That is something that we are involved with our tri-union colleagues in through the SNCT and, indeed, directly involved with our colleagues at Scottish Government as well. Obviously, we all know what the impact of the pandemic has been on us for a great many different factors, not only work-related but also personal, because of what people have been experiencing on the rest. That has undoubtedly been an increase because of that. Just because of the natural situation, we all find ourselves in terms of being concerned about what might happen should you contract Covid and so forth. Clearly, what we have done throughout the pandemic is make sure that there are supports available to our colleagues in all the roles that they do. Proactively, both at a national level but also at a local level, local authorities have done an awful lot of work to make sure that the supports are in place for individuals in the roles that they do, whether it be counselling, whether it be other means, et cetera, that they can make sure that they are looking after themselves well and able to do their jobs in the best of their ability. Well, Simon Cameron, let's hear what Greg Dempster has got to say about what you have just said about how we are responding to the contract situation, which itself is, I think, a stress that teachers probably do not need at these times of all times, and the issue of the mental health and general wellbeing of our teachers across Scotland. Greg, what are your comments on that? Greg Dempster, in terms of the recruitment point that you were pursuing there around about temporary and permanent contracts, that is not something that members have been coming to me about. We have not been discussing it within the association, so I cannot comment on that. I would say that, if it had been an issue of particularly heavy concern for my membership, then I would have expected to hear about it. However, I know that a lot of the concerns that you have heard have come from class teacher unions, rather than one that is representing schools. In terms of mental health and wellbeing, the figures that you quoted from the Glasgow Even Times have no frame of reference about whether that is high, low or medium in terms of other periods. It sounds like a big number, and certainly I am concerned about the pressure and strain that school leaders and my members are under across the country and have been before the pandemic, but particularly over the past couple of years through this pandemic period. I think that a big signal, a recognition of that pressure that school leaders are under, is that the inspectorate were planning to recommence inspection this side of Christmas and having been out in schools for the first time in a long time doing some follow-up inspection activity before Christmas, they have stepped back from that. That says a lot that there is a strong message about the pressure that schools and school leaders are under, and they need to be very careful about the additional pressures that they are faced with. In terms of the supports for wellbeing that Simon talked about, Education Scotland has done a lot of work along with GTC, and other organisations have a range of opportunities for members to take up to support their own mental wellbeing. When we have run sessions on those sorts of themes, we have had a high uptake from members. It is definitely an area of concern, and we need to be careful about the asks of the system and the asks of school leaders in this coming period when we are still feeling the effects of the pandemic. We all want the system to be in a better place than it is. We all want children to be achieving to their fullest potential, but we have to recognise the constraints that there are in the system and not try to get blood from the stone. I am a little bit surprised to hear that the head teachers and deputies in Scotland have not considered the issue of the contract status of the teaching staff in Scotland. You would appreciate the difference that it makes to have a permanent contract in terms of your life planning and your wellbeing. Is that a fair point that I am making? Absolutely. My response is that my members have not come to me or the HDSR association about those points, because the people directly affected by it would be going to their class teacher associations about that. One area that has come up in the past is about pupil equity funding, where schools have wanted to recruit staff or have recruited staff and have had to do it under a temporary contract because the funding is time-bound. In that context, in the past, my members have been raising concerns because they would like to be in a position for the reasons that you are describing there, convener, to be able to offer people permanency. You talked about the system and the stress that the whole education system is under. I referred to that article from Glasgow Evening Times. Are you generally satisfied from the Association of Head Teachers and Deputies in Scotland point of view? Are you satisfied with the supports that are in place for teachers in terms of their mental health and general wellbeing? I think that there are a lot of supports in place for those who need to take up that sort of support, but I think that that is maybe the wrong end of the lens in a sense. That support is there and that is important, but I think that we need to be careful not to be pushing people into a position that they need to be accessing that sort of support. We have got to look at the root cause, which is what you are saying, I think. I am going to bring in Bob Doris, who has a brief supplementary on the issue of contract, and Bob will direct his comments to whoever he wishes to respond. Thank you, convener. I think that Simon Cowan was the best place to answer the question. It was fascinating exchange between yourself and Mr Cowan. I think that Scotland was in pretty clear that permanent contracts should be secured with this additional baseline funding. I wonder if Mr Cowan could confirm that he anticipates to see many, many more permanent contracts as a result of that funding. I would imagine—this is a bit of a bit of clarity on that, convener—that the reason for not flipping a current temporary contract into a permanent one, I suspect, might be twofold. One, a local authority or so might wish to redeploy that resource to a different post in a school doing a different task elsewhere, but that contract should then surely be permanent, or that it has to do with some form of external recruitment to make sure that you are abiding by recruitment and employment law. I just want clarity, the expectations that there will be permanent contracts, whether the configuration of staff as it looks at the current is one thing, but we are anticipating—indeed, convener—that we are expecting permanent contracts. Could Simon Cowan give us more clarity on that? Thank you very much, Mr Dawr. Yes, absolutely. From our perspective, the fact that the money has come through and Greg actually picked up an important point when we look at other forms of funding, particularly the per-funding, etc., when something has got a temporary nature, that very much puts you into a situation that you have to offer a temporary contract with it, because you cannot give somebody permanency, but there is not that guarantee of the funding to go with it. The fact that the money that we have now got from the Scottish Government is baselined will be there permanently in the system in the rest, is something that means that we can put in place permanent contracts. For all the factors that you have both acknowledged and that I outlined previously in the rest, there is a fair and open process that people have to go through to make sure that they are appropriate and that the appropriate people are in the right places in the system. Clearly, as I said before we even went into Covid, we were carrying permanent vacancies in different parts of the country. That is something that we need to look at. How do we attract people to all parts of the country where there is a great need? If we look at the recruitment that is going on, there has been a requirement to continuously re-advertise most, because we cannot attract people to said parts. That is something that we are working proactively with colleagues on, something that we need to do not only with our universities, but to ensure that individuals coming through the system are being trained in the appropriate subject matter. That is particularly in secondary level, but making sure that we get people to the right places. When we do and where it is appropriate, we will expect to see a great many more permanent contracts in the system. I am going to turn to Stephanie Callaghan. We are going to continue on the same theme of pressures that are on our teachers. Stephanie Callaghan, I am trying to turn myself off there. What I wanted to ask was about what the impact has been on learning of omicron in teachers and staff absences. Can I ask Douglas Hutchison? I am not 100 per cent clear what the question is. Are you asking about the impact on learning and the impact on staff absences is two separate issues? Yes, so the impact of omicron on teachers and staff absences is yes. Okay. There clearly has been an impact on staff absences at the ADES meeting last Thursday morning, where most directors attend. We have an eight o'clock meeting on support night, and the issue was discussed there about the impact on staffing. It was not only teachers that were affected, obviously, on support staff at all levels, but also on facilities management staff, which is a knock-on effect on transport staff getting children to school. It was not just teachers that were affected. However, in relation to the question of teachers, yes, there has been an increase. The general view was that schools were coping. That was down to the good efforts of staff on the ground, of senior leadership teams, of local authority teams and of teachers. Generally speaking, the schools were coping. There was clearly an increase in staff absences, but schools were continuing to run. Your question alluded to the impact of learning. There was a knock-on effect, and it was not just the fact that teachers were absent. If the French teacher was absent, that would have a knock-on effect in the whole department, so the other staff were having to get classes ready. It detracts from the work that they are doing, so it is not just the case that that teacher is off and that that class needs to be covered. It is the added pressure that puts on the others to get work ready for that class. The quality of learning and teaching is impacted regardless of the total number of staff absent, because it is a knock-on effect across the school. Other people need to pick up. There is a higher number of pleas to exit secondary. There are potentially classes being distributed across to other teachers at various levels in the system. Generally speaking, yes, there was an impact. I mean, I understand that there was about 5 per cent of staff absent at one point purely due to Covid absences and 5 per cent of teachers due to Covid, but it is the knock-on effect that has on the quality of learning and teaching across the system, because the whole system is under pressure. Every teacher is put under pressure because there is additional work to keep the whole thing going. To their credit, they have done it. To their huge credit, they have done it. However, as Greg was alluding to, that comes at a cost. There is a cumulative effect of additional work caused by staff being absent. We have kept going because it is absolutely important that schools keep going. It is absolutely important that children and young people are able to get that regular experience of coming to school and keep that habit. Learning and teaching keeps going, but there is an acceptance that, through that, there has been a knock-on effect on the quality of what schools have been able to offer. That is great. That is really helpful. Thank you, Douglas. Just following on from that, are you finding that there is quite a bit of variation across the country? That there is different pressures, different places at different times? Are people stepping in to offer a bit of additional support outside their own areas? How is that fitting together? How is it working? There is variation. I have been a director in Glasgow City Council for all of three days, so I cannot speak about Glasgow. Even in South Ayrshire, where I have just come from, there was variation. You would see the number of cases in one area, still in Gervyn and North Caryc at one point in time. There was a really high incidence of cases there, and so the schools there would be under particular pressure for a variety of reasons, but then it would seem to calm down there and it would move to an air-pressed, but through an area. So there was variation, or you would get a school where there was a significant outbreak in a few classes. Those classes would have to be home, or there would be a high incidence. There is variation, and if that happens in a small authority like South Ayrshire, that happens across Scotland, and we can see that in the case numbers. At one point, a local authority is high, and then eventually they come down that league table, so yes, there is variation. In that context, you mentioned people stepping in. I mean, I was aware from the discussions at the ADES meeting last week, for example, local authority staff are going back to cover absences. Teachers within school are covering each other. Senior leadership teams in schools, as Greg, I am sure, will allude to, are covering classes. They are spending a lot of time covering classes, so they do not have a chance to do the normal development improvement work that they would like to do. People are being flexible in order to provide that level of resilience in the system. Again, that comes at probably a longer term cost, and the cost is around development improvement and a general sense of weariness in the system. Yes, people absolutely are being flexible within the schools and across the system, I would say. Are you finding just now, Douglas, that you are at a point where you are able to do some planning on how that impacts the learning of pupils, or is it not really at that stage yet, because you are still in the firefighting stage of that? At this stage, we are all, hopefully, on the downward slope case numbers. They are still very high. At the moment, it is a case of just getting through, to some extent, a day at a time. Clearly, people still have the eye on longer-term improvement, on recovery. Schools are very good at that. I have been hugely impressed throughout the past two years with the way schools have dealt with the issues. If we continue to focus on how we can do that better, if we look at the difference between the first major lockdown and the second, last year, when schools were closed, people had learned from the first one. By the time we came to the second lockdown, the quality of remote learning had improved immeasurably. That is because we are part of a learning system, where educators were good at learning lessons as we are going along. At the moment, I would say to a great extent that we are still in the thick of it, but people constantly have an eye on how we can learn and how we can do that better. How can we ensure that we do not just go back to business as usual, to pre-pandemic? How can we take learning from that? I have been impressed with the way that we have learned up to this point. That gives me confidence that I am part of a learning system, and that learning system will learn the lessons and still has an eye towards improvement. At the moment, in a lot of schools, the experience will be—let's just get through today. That is really helpful, indeed. Finally, I want to ask what impact does that have as far as feeling examinations are concerned as well, both the pupil and the student absences, and whether you are feeling quite confident that there should be further issues with Covid, whether there should be further absences or whether there should be results in school closures as we approach the exams? How confident are you feeling that the process will be much better this year and that there will be a satisfactory process and satisfactory outcomes for our young people? It is difficult to say. The concept of prelims has changed over time. I do not think that we exist in an educational world anymore where the prelim has huge prominence. It is one piece of assessment in a range of assessments or evidence gathering over the course of a school year. The prelims have a place, but they do not have the significance that they once had. Schools are aware of what could have potentially happened over the course of this year. They will have taken that into account. They will have planned accordingly. They will be clearer about what assessment evidence they need in the event of having to make a teacher judgment. However, the central planning assumption remains that there will be an exam diet. The question then is how we take account of the disruption that has taken place because there has been disruption. Back in September, case numbers were high just when we came back to school and staff absence and pupil absence. For the first time, we were not going into a closure. We continued to operate through high case levels, high staff absence and pupil absence as we have done now. That has an effect on the quality of learning teaching. The schools are taking account of it. We just need to be clear on what the adjustments are going to be and we will probably need them sooner rather than later, I would say. I am sorry for clarity. The standard continual assessment material in the year seems to be absolutely fine. That seems to be there and very solid, Jess. I would say that schools have learned from the past two years and would be gathering assessment evidence as part of the normal process of learning and teaching. It is not about a one-off high-states pre-limb exam that will determine what happens in the event of a state, for example, if anything was to happen in terms of the exam diet. As I said, the central assumption is that the exams will go ahead, but if a young person was not able to sit on the exam because it tested positive or whatever, then schools have been gathering a range of assessment evidence throughout the course of the year. If you think about pre-limbs, a pre-limb only assesses the work that you have done up to that point. If you are doing that just before Christmas or just after Christmas, you have still got a significant amount of learning to do. All I am saying is that pre-limbs are not the one-off high-states assessment evidence that will determine a young person's future that they might once have been in the days when appeals were based on their pre-limb result, for example. That is not the case anymore. As part of the process of learning and teaching, teachers are gathering a range of assessment evidence throughout the course of the year. That is all that I am saying. Margaret Wilson, the national parent for Scotland, comment on the impact that parents are feeling from teacher absences and the disruption of pupil absences in the delivery of education in general. What are parents telling you about their experience, Margaret Wilson? We are hearing quite a broad range of views, probably hearing more from senior-phase pupil parents, if I am being honest. They seem to be very concerned about the disruption to the learning and teaching for the reasons that have just been said with the pre-limbs and assessments and the exam diets still going ahead. However, it is not just the senior-phase pupils that have had their learning and teaching disrupted. It has been everyone who is concerned that the focus again goes to the senior-phase pupils, because that is what happened last year. However, that cannot happen again. We need to focus on the piece. We need to focus on it all years, but even just now, you have got piece savings that will be transitioning into secondary schools soon. Nursery, again, is moving up to primary ones. Subject choice events are going on. There is a huge number of young people who have had their learning and teaching disrupted. I think that parents are really concerned at the moment about the numbers. Maybe we are turning a corner, hopefully, but it is quite concerning. As we have said, the teachers feel safe in their school. We want our schools to remain open when it is safe to do so. That is obviously a priority, but it is significant learning and teaching disruption that concerns everyone. I know that Willie Rennie wants to come in with a brief supplementary on the exam diet, because Margaret Wilson has just said that there is a lot of emphasis and concern among the parents of the age group of the pupils. Willie Rennie, if you would like to come in on exams. Under scenario 2 of the plan, it indicates that revision support, for example guidance on topics, will be provided to help learners to maximise their exam performance and reduce exam stress. Do we know yet what is the content of that revision support? If we ask Greg and then Douglas for those questions. I am not the best person for that. My association is primary, nursery and special schools, so I have no secondary education input to offer you. Thanks to you, convener. No, we do not know yet. The formal decision to move to scenario 2 has yet to be taken. Once we move formally to scenario 2, the specific guidance around content that the revision support would come out after that. At that point, we do not know, because I am not sure that we have formally moved to scenario 2 yet. The first stage would be a formal move to scenario 2, and the next stage would be that the information would come out on the changes to specific guidance on which specific topics are included in an exam or not included, so we are not there yet. We do not have that information. Should we not be moving to scenario 2 already, because it is clear that there has been significant disruption to education with the absences that you have talked about of staff but also pupils? A lot of pupils right now are in their pre-learns and have not studied leave. If we do not know what the revision advice will be, how can we prepare pupils for those exams? Should we not be moving to scenario 2 now so that we can crack on with that? That is the issue that is being discussed by the national qualifications group, the NQ22 group. That is a decision that will be made formally by the SQA presumably, but my view would be that the more information we have, the earlier, the better. In terms of reducing stress on the system, the more people know, the more information young people have and the earlier they have that information, the more that, for me, reduces pressure on young people and on teaching staff in secondary schools, preparing young people for SQA exams. My view would be that the sooner, the better. That is pretty clear. I do not want to put words in your mouth, but it is a pretty clear message and you are smiling now. I think that you indicate that. I think that we should be moving towards scenario 2 so that we can crack on with that. If I can go back to Douglas Hardison. Are there not set trigger dates for those decisions? The timeline to the exams is pretty clear. That is known. Are there not dates by which decisions have to be made that are set? D-days, as it were? Again, I am not part of the NQ22 group. We have an IDF representative on that. My understanding is that there will be a decision by the end of January. That is later than you would like it to be, is what I am hearing you say to Willie Rennie. What I am saying is that the sooner we know the better. I think that it reduces pressure in the system, but I can understand why the SQA, for its part, would want to take a measured approach and look at all the evidence and so on. Parents, I will have a view on this, Margaret Wilson. I sit on the NQ22 group. I have fed the parents concerns. We sit on the NQ working group, steering group, comms group and every subgroup of the NQ22. The parents are represented there, and we have fed back our concerns. Is there a degree? Are there D-days? Are there decision days for those things? Are there trigger moments? There are triggers, but I do not think that they are published so that they are not targeted if that makes any sense. You would not want them to become targets. Yes, there are trigger points that are looked at. Douglas Hutchison was right when he said that he thinks that trigger dates for making a decision is at the end of January. I think that it is going to be soon. I represent parents. We have said that we would really like a decision. Not saying that soon is not good enough, but we need to learn to relieve the anxiety that is out there. We need a decision as soon as possible, and the plan is in place so that there is no more disruption. The sooner the better is what you are saying in those groups. Absolutely. I stress that we have asked for clear and concise communications, because when they release any information, it should be three targeted groups that should come out to the practitioners. What they need to do is reassure messages to the young people and the parents. It needs to be in really good language for parents. Sometimes we do not understand the language that is used, because we are not practitioners. We have also called for really good, clear and concise communications when any decisions are made. That is why we have been asked to be on subgroups to help them if and where possible. The politicians do not understand the language, either. Margaret Willis and so the parents and the politicians are good travel companions in this exercise. However, what you are saying and what Douglas Peterson is saying is that decisions need to be made and they need to be made pretty quickly and for the reasons that Willie Rennie described. I am now going to turn to Ross Greer. I would like to start off on a different topic, although the one that I returned to might end up touching on some of the issues that have just been raised. I have a couple of questions about ventilation in the first instance. I am interested in Douglas and Simon's perspective, first of all, if that comes under your purview, Simon. The £5 million of additional funding for ventilation improvements that was announced by the Scottish Government last week, are you clear on how you can access that at this point? We are in the process of working through that and the discussions are on-going with Scottish Government and COSLA in relation to how that money will be accessed and allocated. Simon might be able to give a clearer answer, but based on what I have seen and the conversations that have been part of, we are at a fairly advanced stage of being clear on what the allocation is and how we can access that. I confirm that through the Scottish distribution group that we have as part of the way that money goes out to councils in terms of that. We have been proactive in working with Scottish Government just in the past week or so taking that information to them. I believe that they actually meet today, so we will communicate very shortly with all councils to let them know the allocations that they have been provided and the fact that the money will be coming. We have been taking an approach to making sure that people know that there will be funding there for them so that they can continue to purchase the appropriate equipment that they require or put in place the appropriate remedial works that they require. We have been trying to make sure that there is not a delay to any of that in the process. The money has obviously been announced. We know that it is there and we are just working through the final process of the distribution group. Just to clarify that distribution, it is not the case that a local authority would have to either come to yourselves or directly to the Scottish Government with a worked-up case as a bid before they are able to access them. Are you aiming to give them certainty that a minimum amount will be available to each local authority and you will work with them to develop a case for exactly how that is deployed just so that it gets out quickly? They do not have to prepare a bid and wait for a response to the bid before they know whether to proceed with it. That is absolutely right. We are making sure that they know that money is coming and that they are getting an appropriate proportion of that money and the rest is required for them and there is guidance out with authorities in the moment. That is enabling them to already continue with the process. It is not a case of having to put together a lengthy bid. Clearly that would delay processes. Obviously, there will have to be appropriate auditing in place, so they will have to have the appropriate audit in place for that, but it will be distributed to them. That is great. Thanks very much. I welcome my other questions on ventilation, so I will move to my other area of questioning briefly. To try and get a sense of how local authorities and schools are quantifying the social and developmental impact of the disruption of not just the Omicron wave, but since the beginning of the pandemic on young people. To some extent, we can quantify the impact on education attainment through the testing regime, national qualifications, exam results, etc. Quantifying that wider social and developmental impact is much harder. I presume that individual classroom level teachers are able to identify what additional challenges their young people are facing as a result of the pandemic, and are hopefully able to direct them towards making sure that they can access the likes of school councillors and educational psychologists. However, there is an implication there for schools and for local authorities in terms of workforce planning for them to have a clear idea of what the level of demand is going to be for those additional pastoral support services that you provide over the coming period. There has been some national survey work done, for example, by YouthLink Young Scot, on the impact of mental health. What work are local authorities undertaking to try to quantify the additional social need that is going to have to be met through schools? If I could go back to Douglas to start again with that. I suppose that the question implies that we perhaps should be gathering that information either at local authority level or at national level, but the reality is that the issues will be dealt with at school level. One of the minor irritations throughout the pandemic has been the obsessive gathering of data and information that has sometimes come at the cost of people actually doing their front-line job to feed a machine. I have a slight anxiety that the question implies that we should somehow be gathering that data. However, to go back to the essence of the question, the reality is that I am out and about in schools and meet regularly with head teachers in South Ayrshire, rather than here in Glasgow, as I said, it is day 3. However, talking regularly to teachers being in schools and talking to head teachers, there is a clear impact. Teachers are noticing that a primary 3 class this year is probably further behind socially and behaviourally compared to a primary 3 class last year, because they have spent such a lot of time either at home or not interacting with their peers or not in a normal class context. There is an impact in terms of social skills, behaviour development and so on, but that will be dealt with at school level. It is probably only at school level that skilled teachers' skilled practitioners will deal with those issues. The same is true at early years. Early years practitioners are noticing children and their social skills and their interaction, because they have not been interacting to the same extent. However, again, it will be dealt with by the very same skilled practitioners. They will deal with those issues. It is probably only where there are chronic or long-lasting issues that they would then escalate through the local authorities' normal, staged intervention process and be dealt with at that specialist level by educational psychology, by CAMHS, by some of the supports that are available. However, there has been a significant investment by the Scottish Government in mental health, and it has been at that community level. That has allowed local authorities, health and social care partnerships, to put in place a range of commission services, for example, from third sector organisations to be available to meet the needs. In South Ayrshire, the South Ayrshire youth forum does a mental health survey every two years, to get a sense of what the issues are. They are very good at getting boots on the ground and getting face-to-face and facing young people up, so they get a really good response. Young people, because it was a youth forum, were probably much more honest than if they had been adults or a school-based survey. That helped direct services. The level of self-harm, for example, reported in the survey, was probably higher than a similar survey that was done by psychological service. In commissioning services, using the money from the Scottish Government, we were able to target specifically the issue of self-harm. However, that is when you get to the chronic or clinical end of the spectrum for the vast majority of children and young people where they have lost ground or have not had that normal social interaction that they would get by being at school, by being with their peers. That will be dealt with by skilled teachers, skilled practitioners and skilled support staff at school level. When it gets to the chronic level, that will probably be dealt with through a school-staged intervention process. Young people's needs would be assessed and met through the normal processes, I suspect. I do not know if that answers the question. That is useful. I have one brief follow-up. I accept absolutely what you are saying, Douglas, that the obsession with gathering data often results in taking folk away from delivering the service that they need to. What you are saying about schools that will resolve those issues is that, for a school to have the right-skilled professionals to resolve the issues and to support young people with the challenges that they are facing, there is a wider workforce planning issue for local authorities and Governments. For us at a national level, we need to know if the significant increase in demand is going to be for educational psychologists or speech and language therapists. There are long-term workforce implications here. A couple of years ago, we were short of educational psychologists, so the bursary was brought back in to get more folk going into uni to study for that profession. However, we do not know whether the demand is now going to be, for example, in early primary. Is it going to be for speech and language therapists instead? If so, do we have the folk who are qualified to go into that workforce to meet that increased demand? Is there not a wider workforce planning issue that cannot be resolved at an individual school level? They can only resolve it if the skill professionals are there. Obviously, the money to hire them is there as well. The short answer is yes, but that is probably an issue that would be dealt with at community planning partnership level. It would probably be for the community planning partnership to sit down and look at those issues and say, where do we need the resource? Is it in CAMHS? Is it in the level pre-CAMHS? Is it a community-based mental health support and services that often subsector organisations provide very well? Is it speech and language therapy, as you suggest? Young people have not been socialising to the same extent that they are not exposed to the level of language that they would have been, had they been attending nursery, for example. At community planning level, it would probably be the place where those discussions need to take place and yet that could aggregate up to a national level from there. I want to take us back to what Ross Greer touched on with ventilation. I just want to take a little bit of time to drill down and get underneath some of the headlines that have been there. First of all, I want to put on record that, as an ex-teacher, I am really grateful to my colleagues, all the staff and parents and pupils from the profession who had to turn on a sixpence and the amount of work that has been done has been amazing and also cancels across Scotland as well. With regard to ventilation, I want to ask about the assessments that have been done. It says in the COSLA report that 100 per cent of the learning and teaching stases were assessed by November 2021 and yet we have been hearing evidence from voices from within and out with the profession that there are inadequacies there. Can I get some more information, please, regarding the assessment of all the learning and teaching places and the mitigations that were made and how they were rectified and where we are along that process? How much more is there to be done? Can I direct that at Simon Cameron, please, from COSLA initially? Yes, thank you very much for the question. Work has been undertaken, and there was a very strict timeline that was set out when we initially did the work-out ventilation, which was for October last year. Indeed, over 52,000 identified learning and teaching play spaces were all audited. It has been a huge exercise, as you would imagine, and there is a great variation across all those. Unfortunately, not all our children learn a joint or a very similar space, so it is not easy to roll out a one-size-fits-all approach here. However, in terms of the work that is on-going, the remedial work, the moneys that has been provided to authorities has been used to improve ventilation when it is required. Obviously, there has been a great range of CO2 monitors provided across the country, and yet again people have used a process that is fit for purpose for their local needs and their local area. That work continues. With the additional £5 million, they are now looking very closely at what further work is required. The process of going back around and doing an assessment of all those spaces on a weekly basis is starting to be undertaken so that we can make sure that, yet again, the environment is as safe as possible and as healthy as possible. One of the things to note from ventilation is just the long-term benefit that there can be in terms of improving ventilation in general, not only in teaching learning spaces but probably will fall in through to other work spaces as well for everyone. That work is continuing at pace, making sure that it is happening. In terms of what we have done with our tri-gene colleagues, we listened to the concerns of individuals who feel that they are not clear on the guidance, that they do not know where to access the guidance. We produced just before Christmas time a quick guide for all education staff. That was something that we did with all tri-genes, and we sent that out to the system. It was shared across social media platforms and by our own means to make sure that not only people knew the simple steps that they could take in terms of ventilation but also when they did have a concern on how they could access the national guidance but also, as was most important, the local supports available, the local expertise that told them that if they get such a such reading, that is the best way to deal with it. Those are the mitigations and the steps that they may take. We tried to outline that in a one-page document so that people could quickly go to it and hopefully reduce some of the stress that might be associated with the concerns that there are regarding ventilation, but the work very much continues. We have also proactively, through what we have got at the cause of our workforce issues group, put a firm commitment out, and we have written out with the Scottish Government to all tri-gene partners to state that if there are any local matters that are still coming up that they are concerned about, to contact us directly. As we do in any circumstance, and we do for a great many reasons, particularly in the employer's team within COSLA, we will work closely with local colleagues to address the concerns that individuals might have. That might simply be about sharing good practice and letting people know the steps that they should take. It might just be clarifying matters relating to funding and so forth, but whatever the concern might be, we stand ready to work proactively with colleagues to address them. It is important to get a strong message to staff and to pupils and parents all stakeholders that if they have concerns about ventilations in their environments, there is a clear route that they can pursue in order to get those issues addressed. Those channels are open and there should be no fear of judgment or repercussions. That is a clear route that is available for people. I absolutely couldn't agree more and yet again our quick guide was absolutely a heart of that. Throughout the pandemic, across a range of matters for employees across the Scottish Local Government, we have always been very clear about the routes that are available to individuals. Firstly, you would always go to your line manager to seek assistance and help, where that is not a route that is working for you and I do appreciate that sometimes that is not the route that works for every individual. Obviously, we have health and safety teams, we have HR teams that can provide support and guidance locally. We are also working closely with our trade union colleagues, particularly in the workforce issues group space, yet again we reiterate that point. At all times, we did a campaign indeed. It comes back to only every time that I can't get off mute on my device, but we did a don't stay on mute campaign. That was about individuals' mental health and wellbeing and saying, if you have a concern, if you have a fear or simply if you are not certain, remember that there are people out there who are willing to help, who are willing to listen and who can support you to do the best in your role. Nobody should be under any doubt that the support and help is there. I suppose that my only reflection for all of us is that we don't live in a world of 4TV channels any more. We have far too many outlikes for communication, so that is why we need to reinforce the point of working together with our colleagues and councils, trade unions and any means. I would highlight that COSLA has got a weekly elective members briefing, and all the information that I have referred to has gone out through that so that all the councils in Scotland can support their constituents to make sure that they know how to access information. Any means in all means that we can put the messages across is a critical point in that. Thanks very much, Simon. I turn to Douglas Hutchison, please. Douglas, first of all, I would like to welcome you to your new post in Glasgow on day 3. You are in front of the Education and Children and Young People's Committee. Thank you for your contributions so far. Can you give us an indication, from an address point of view, about any concerns that you have heard across Scotland regarding ventilation? I am not just talking about the use of HEPA filters or CO2 monitors, but I am also referring to opening windows and getting that natural ventilation and being able to use doors. What is the view of Addis around all that? The advice is fairly clear that good ventilation is a key mitigation in relation to preventing the circulation of the virus. The funding that was made available to address the issue of CO2 monitors is a proxy indicator of what the potential issues are. We have gone through the process and local authorities and schools will have a good supply now of CO2 monitors, but we have identified—certainly I was aware that there was a small number of rooms and teaching spaces that were problematic, so the job of addressing that will be on-going so that we get to a point where ventilation is good and people can open windows, doors and not freeze. The situation is that there is an acceptance and acknowledgement that good ventilation is a key mitigation, so let's get on with it. We have at least some of the tools available in relation to CO2 monitors. Other than that, I am not picking up any major issues. You will know that I worked as a teacher for many years and buildings vary. You have everything from Victorian buildings with huge windows to more modern buildings that have internal ventilation systems, so I have an awareness that it is a complex issue. Catering for that requires local flexibility across authorities, so I wondered if there were any concerns anywhere across the country that were more than others. Thank you for that, Douglas. I ask Margaret Wilson for a view from the parents, because we have heard a few voices regarding children freezing in classrooms and opening a window is not a simple solution, especially with the Scottish weather. It can get very cold. I wondered from a parent's point of view, have you been hearing any major concerns about the effect of temperature on children? I am also thinking about wearing outdoor clothing inside. Do you have any views on that from the Margaret place? Thank you. There were a few concerns when we were approaching the colder weather, that if windows were open, children would be cold, and if they were cold, they would not be able to learn if they were sitting there chitting away. We have to remember that when windows are open, they will not be open all the time, they might only be a few minutes to let the air flow. However, the school guidance was updated at the same time to allow schools to be more flexible with their uniforms, so children were allowed to wear more layers. However, we did get feedback that some schools were not being as relaxed. I have fed that back through the Covid-19 recovery group. At times, we were hearing that guidance had not reached into school levels, that they could obviously relax their guidance and allow children to wear outdoor clothing. However, I have not heard anything this side of Christmas, that there have been any major concerns. The only other ones were maybe from some more rural highlands in the islands, because the wind is stronger up there, so they were concerned about wind and doors and windows. However, I have not heard very much this side of Christmas, if I am being honest. There was a little bit of noise in the media, and that was addressed pretty quickly with a sector of funding. I suppose that we, as parents, are then looking to see how that plays out when they invest in the schools. Our children should be safe. Margaret Thatcher, that is important views that you have given there. To finish off, if I could ask Greg Dempster, who plays from a headteacher and deputes point of view, ultimately say that the school estate is huge. Of course, it is important for us to remember that schools drill down into small workplaces. In that sense, it is quite a fragmented estate in that way. I think that it is important to acknowledge the additional stresses and strains on school leaders. If Greg Dempster could give us any insight, has he heard from his members on any concerns about ventilation and whether the communication between themselves and their support services are effective? Any concerns that they have raised have they been dealt with? If not, is there anything that we can do better on that area? I would like to thank you for your recognition of the efforts of school staff around the country, which will be appreciated by them. In relation to the CO2 monitoring, as Douglass described, that proxy is used for air quality. There has been variable practice, variable experience around the country, just as there has been a variable experience in terms of staff absence that was talked about earlier, where there were 5,200 staff members off last week, but a quarter of primary schools did not have any staff absence. It is something like that. I am not accurate, I am sure, with those figures. Again, the implementation of the protections by implementing the CO2 monitoring has proceeded at a different pace in different places. I think that we are in a much, much better position this winter than we were last. The guidance then was to throw open all your windows and keep them open. This year, people have been able to take a much more nuanced approach to that, because they have had access to the CO2 monitors, but there is a variety of experience there. There is one end of the spectrum where every classroom, in every school, has a CO2 monitor at all times. The teachers have become very comfortable about recognising for how long they need to have windows open before the monitor returns from red to green. I have heard about situations of that where teachers say that they do not need this anymore. We understand that. We do not need the monitor to tell us. We understand how often we need to purge the room and so on. The other end of the spectrum is where authorities are still gearing up with numbers of monitors so that there is not a monitor available in every classroom every day, so that they are being cycled around classrooms. However, the weekly monitoring of every space, I think that the concern that you were talking about impact on school leadership teams is that there would be a concern if there was going from that requirement to collate and report on all that information on a weekly basis. What you want is a response where there is a problem. You do not want to create busy work of collating and reporting on all that. That would be where my members would have a concern, that and the balance between ventilation and warmth. However, in most cases that I have heard about, my teachers become comfortable about how often and to what degree they need to open windows a lot of the anxiety disappears. Thanks for that, Greg. The message that I am getting is that the guidance and the responses become more sophisticated. Staff and leaders who have done an awesome job, I have to say, headteachers are promoted as being heads of teaching, and they are having to deal with scientific evidence and health and safety and all the rest of it. It hats off to all school leaders at every level. The advice is becoming through and it is more responsive, but I am getting that there needs to be more consistency across all authorities across Scotland. Would that be correct? We are in a much better position, as I said. That position has progressed. There is more consistency coming in. I am hearing much less about ventilation if I use that as a proxy. I am going to ask a couple of colleagues to make quick, supplementary questions, starting with Bob Doris, to be followed by Michael Marra, and then we will move on to Michael Marra in his line of questioning. Obviously, time is now against us. We luxuriate at the first hour of our meeting in questions and answers, but now we are up against the clock. Bob Doris is called by Michael Marra. Thank you. I would like to direct my question to Douglas Hutchison. I am doing so. I should declare an interest and go to ask about the EIS survey. I still give my union dues to the EIS, so I should declare that before I mention the survey. I should also welcome Douglas Hutchison to his post in Glasgow. Only three days, and I suspect that the post is still quite voluminous already. Douglas, but thank you for taking on that task in Glasgow. The EIS survey on ventilation said that 65.9 per cent of teachers thought that classrooms and rooms were well ventilated, but 29.2 per cent did not. I will just give one other start for time, convener, only give one other start. 62.8 per cent of teachers knew ventilation had been checked in rooms, but 11 per cent did not. I just want to ask Douglas whether he was aware of whether learners in education at a local authority level had used that EIS survey detail to go back to the EIS and to drill down on the 29 per cent, for example, who did not think that classrooms were well ventilated or the 11 per cent that did not know ventilation had been checked, so there was really important data there about a bit of a disconnect about some of the teachers at the coalface who were the EIS members and some of the good practice that was heard from Simon Cameron at COSLA. I wonder if Douglas has got a view on how that data could be used, what discussions it could be with the EIS to do something positive in relation to that. The short answer is that I do not have that data. I would just say that 65.9 per cent of respondents are not 65.9 per cent of teachers, but I would also say that my expectation would be that the issue would be brought up at the local negotiating committee for teachers and that is where it would be discussed. I think that it would be reasonable to have that survey discussed at that level so that it is clear that where the issues are and how a local authority is addressing those issues, but I am not aware across the country of how local authorities are using it. However, the obvious place for me would be Vellian CT. Bob Doris covered part of my question. I want to ask Simon Cameron at COSLA whether any discussions have begun with the Scottish Government or with the local authorities to make sure that we do not have a third year of that situation. We have gone through two years, we have heard some anecdotal evidence that things have perhaps got a little bit better in different places. The response has obviously evolved in some instances. What can we do over the next year? Will that work continue or are we looking at a case of another set of panic next winter? Absolutely. From our point of view, we are continuing to work closely not only with Scottish Government colleagues but with other partners, namely organisations that the Scottish Features Trust, to look at that work. I think that what I alluded to in my earlier response was that that is not just something that is of benefit during Covid times, it is something that we need to look at longer term. The work that we have got going on now will continue longer term because it is about an improvement in general of the teaching and learning spaces that we have got available to children and young people. As we become more and more aware of what the benefits of that will be for that environment, we will continue on. That is where we need to get into understanding for colleagues on the ground and making sure that they are comfortable on understanding what the best practice could be for them as we move forward. That is great. I am sure that the committee would appreciate to hear about some of that work in writing in the coming months as it develops and perhaps the programme of discussions that you might be having with the Scottish Governments and colleagues on that. It would be good to receive that as a committee. Convener, if I can, given the time, I will move on to my substantive line of questioning if that is okay. The committee has repeatedly heard about a lack of overall analysis in terms of the impact of the pandemic and particularly the differential impact on who has suffered the most, what requires, who requires the most intervention. I am just wondering in terms of this return to school and this period at the moment, if any reflections that witnesses might have about that differential impact on who has suffered the most. Maybe here first from Greg Demster. There has been a very clear message that, certainly, I have heard that the impact has been greater in areas of deprivation than elsewhere. That goes back to the periods of lockdown when the opportunities to engage in remote learning were not available to the same degree to those families or communities. That is where it stems from. There have not been revelations about how to go about education differently since the advent of the pandemic, as it were. What the system needs and what pupils need is time and continuity of learning opportunities, and both of those require staff. We could see from reports last year that progress was starting to be made on closing the poverty-related detainment gap. Paul McCroth has come along and gotten the way of efforts to identify the issues that you are asking about and to start to address them. However, the mechanisms that Douglas was talking about earlier, the mechanisms for addressing areas or individual pupils that need additional support, are already in place in schools. It is time and continuity of learning opportunities that we require. Thanks, Greg. Margaret Wilson, can I ask you to comment on the representations that you might have been having about different groups that have been affected disproportionately? Hi there. Thank you, Michael. This is quite a hard one because, obviously, I only hear from very switched on parents who are engaged. That is usually down to the same areas of deprivation that you are talking about. It is quite a difficult question for me to answer, probably, but we have, as a parent group, worked in the past with the child poverty action group. We are now in talks with the Scottish Government on the Scottish Attainment Challenge. We are going to see whether there is anything that the National Parent Forum can do to help those families. We have done workshops recently with the child poverty action group. I need to spell it because it is CPag in abbreviations, but we have done help with them. In particular, we are going to be updating the parent council toolkit, so parents within the schools will not all know what a parent council is. We are starting to reach out, but we are very aware that, as the National Parent Forum, we hear from parents who are already engaged with their children and learning. That is where we are trying to reach out and try to help. We are doing that through partnership with the child poverty action group. We are just in a meeting with the Scottish Attainment Challenge colleagues and Government to see if there is anything that we can do to support them. Thanks, Margaret. There was such a sin. Greg and Margaret have both mentioned issues of deprivation, whether that is a shared experience from you and your own members and if there are any other groups that you feel have been disproportionately impacted. Yes, that is absolutely what has already been said. People with existing vulnerabilities and deprivation are a vulnerability, but it is age. If I had done a quick analysis of the curriculum for excellence levels, for example, it seemed to me that it was the youngest and most deprived children who had suffered most when they looked at that data. There are other groups there. Children and young people with complex additional support needs struggled and some of their families probably struggled when schools were closed because schools were such a significant part of that young person's life and that family's life. Generally, the picture is probably one where there were existing vulnerabilities and the biggest one there being deprivation, but also age and additional support needs have been impacted significantly. Thanks, Douglas. Simon, do you believe that there has been a larger impact in the most deprived communities in those areas where there is concentrated multiple deprivation? I am sure that there has been impacts in those areas. One of the key things that we have to think about is that that takes a whole-system approach. There is an awful lot that will not be able to be tackled within the school. There is an awful lot about bringing in other professionals and other services and making sure that the whole system is funded to support those individuals to live the fullest life that they possibly can and overcome the barriers that they face and the challenges that they and their families face on a daily basis. If you look at the Puzzler Live Well locally campaign, and if you refer to the previous submissions that were made to the committee in terms of those living in poverty and children with additional support for learning needs, there is a huge support network that is required to go around them. While teachers play a critical role in attaining all the staff and all the services that individuals will come into contact with in their local communities, not only delivered by councils but also by partners in the third and third sector and beyond, are essential. We need to take a serious look at how we make sure that all that is funded appropriately and that we use that money in a way that will change the life outcomes and the life expectancies of those in most of our communities. That is really useful, Simon. Obviously, a lot of those interventions and working with outside agencies have been funded in different places through the Scottish attainment challenge. I will ask a couple of questions about the reforms that have been undertaken. Many of the local authorities with the highest level of multiple deprivation are losing up to 60 per cent of their Scottish attainment challenge funding. Dundee is losing 80 per cent of its Scottish attainment challenge funding. Can you tell me what you believe the rationale to be behind that also change? As you said, I cannot directly talk to that, but what we can do is come back to you with an answer in terms of where that may be. Clearly, it is something that we need to work closely on. It is something that, at a local level, we need to consider what the impacts will be and make sure that we come back to the point at which we advocate for a whole system approach. Indeed, the funding that we get from local authorities cuts across all the services that we deliver, but also that we support and work with our partners to deliver to make sure that we are putting in place the right processes for individuals at a local level. I can push you a little bit on that, Simon. This is a headline change to the way that that policy is delivered across Scotland. I know that, in Dundee, the Scottish attainment challenge money supports 120 staff. I believe that 25 of those staff are to be cut this year as a result of that cut. Over the period of this Parliament, 80 per cent of the entire funding will be lost. Around 100 members of staff are working directly with the most deprived members of our community. Areas such as speech and language therapy, which we have heard about earlier on, suffer immediate cuts. That is an approach. Was that something that was brought forward by the Scottish Government to COSLA? I do not understand the rationale for the shift from COSLA's perspective. From COSLA's perspective, we are constantly negotiating with the Scottish Government. We are trying to make sure that we can work towards all the outcomes that we share nationally and locally. We continue to engage in that. We will always engage in a manner that is seeking the best financial outcome for local authorities, so that we can deliver services in the best way possible. Obviously, we want to tackle the attainment gap. We want to bring in services beyond the school gate, and we need to continue to work in that vein. I am pressed to the point that, yet again, it comes back to that full-system approach and that it is not a full-personal system working together. We continue to interact with discussions around that. I would point back to the issue of whether we are well-locally campaigning and the requirement is to look at that full-system. I do not feel that we are getting anywhere in particular with that, but I am sure that we will come back to it on another occasion. I will close off with another issue, which is related to that reasonably closely. On 17 November, I raised the issue of missing pupils or missing learners, which is the first analysis of the figures that are looking at 1 in 100 young people in Scotland who are not attending school anymore. That is around 6,900 kids across Scotland. I saw yesterday that the Children's Commissioner in England is launching an inquiry into children who are not attending post-pandemic. If we could take any views from the panel in terms of their experience of that, how closely they are looking at the issue and any evidence that they have and whether they think that it is a matter that we should be, as I am, concerned about. I will ask you first of all, please. Sorry, I was waiting to get unmuted there. It is anecdotal, but what I am hearing is that there are young people who have a heightened anxiety about coming back to school due to Covid. Young people who might have been predisposed to a degree of anxiety anyway have been exacerbated. Schools, education support workers and educational psychologists are working with those young people and working with those families. I am not saying for a second that they are like the 6,900 that you referenced, but I get a sense that there is a group of children and young people with increased anxiety about returning to school. It is a case of working with them in the same way that we would with young people pre Covid in order to build up their confidence, address their fears and anxieties and enable them to return part-time initially and then full-time eventually. All I am saying is that anecdotally, I am aware that there is a group of young people for whom returning to school has been problematic, not just at secondary primary as well, and schools and local authority staff and educational psychologists are working with them to try to address those issues. Thanks very much Douglas Gregg. Any insight? Not on that, but on your previous point, I think that the attainment challenge and the changes to that there is another element of that that I am a little concerned about in the current situation. That relates to the language that is being associated with it as this new evolution of the attainment challenge has been unveiled and it is talking about accelerating progress rather than it sounds like it is not wanting to start from where we are, it is wanting to start from where we might like to be. I think that that is unhelpful in a situation where there is a huge amount of pressure on school leaders and school teams caused by the pandemic. They know what needs to be done and all parts of the system are working hard on it before the pandemic. Accelerating progress is perhaps an unhelpful way to present it. Okay, I think that we would take that on board, Gregg. Margaret, can I finally come to you? Very briefly, Michael. We do need to move on now. Thank you, I appreciate that. I just want to give Margaret the chance to comment on that. Douglas was talking, I think, about a fairly comprehensive, I hope, approach to making sure that young people can return. Is that something that has been feeding through your networks about anxiety among young people and what we can do to try to address that? Hi, thanks, Michael, for the question. I would have said that this was probably more of an issue after the first lockdown. We heard more about that. There were quite a few queries that came into us about withdrawing from school and doing home schooling and things like that. I have not really heard about it as much now, but there is support out there for, as Douglas says, for pupils with heightened anxiety and supporting them to get back to school as far as I am aware, but no, it has not been something that we have probably heard for a while. Okay. Thank you very much and thank you, convener. Thank you very much. Again, my appeal for brevity in the questions and the answers because of the time limitations that we are living with. Can I turn to Fergus Ewing? Thank you, convener. I begin by expressing my thanks to the excellent work that teachers and others in our schools do. My question relates to the use of digital technology. The Scottish Government has provided £25 million in order to assist the provision of a digital device to children and young people, particularly those that are identified as being at risk of digital exclusion. I know that a lot of good work has been done by local government in distributing these devices. I have got the stats, but in the interests of brevity, I will not read them out. One would not hand out a violin or a trumpet to a child without arranging for that child to get a situation in how to play the instrument. It seems to me that there is a sort of taking for granted that if we just hand out a digital device, that in itself will suffice, whereas the essential skill that I would submit in the use of these devices is the facility to touch type. Therefore, allow the brain to concentrate on what one wants to say, rather than finding the keys on the keyboard and concentrating on what rather than how. Touch typing is a skill that, in this digital age, will be essential for people in many, many walks of life. It is not a skill that is naturally acquired. I understand that it takes between 15 and 20 hours of the correct repetition exercises in order for the brain to acquire the facility to identify the keys automatically without thinking and therefore to allow one to apply one's brain with full 100 per cent effort. Having set out that thesis, I wonder if I could perhaps ask Mr Dempter and Mr Hutchison if they agree with my analysis and if they can explain to what extent touch typing is something that is where proper courses of monitoring and tuition, as I say, 15 to 20 hours is what is required, can be provided. If not, should there not be a facility for every school to have teachers' trains in how to teach touch typing by an expert and would that be something that would provide a tremendous additional skill for our children in Scotland? I think that your to what extent question and the training question I'll perhaps leave to Douglas, but the part that you're asking about whether we agree with the premise that touch typing is an important feature of handing out devices. To an extent, I would agree, because there are a lot of different ways in which devices are used for support and remote learning. It may be to provide resources that are then printed off and used in the younger age groups. It may be things that you're reading on-screen and interacting, so typing is only one element and also voice input is more and more a usable and useful way to put together documents in situations where you and I would set it a keyboard to do it. That's not necessarily how everybody would approach it these days. The question for me would be, as I suppose Greg has alluded to, the investment for such a significant investment, would you get the return that you wanted? In terms of devices, I'm aware that Glasgow has invested significantly in iPads, for example, you can use a keyboard with an iPad, but generally speaking, you're not going to be doing that. Handheld devices tend not to lend themselves to keyboards. As Greg said, we will get much better at voice input, for example. However, a lot of the interaction isn't entirely text-based. A lot of the interaction with digital devices may well be math schemes, for example, that don't require input. As I suppose for me there's a question mark, I'm just not 100 per cent sure that the significant investment in touch typing would give the return that merited that level of investment. I suppose that I would need to see the evidence that's suggested that that would be a worthwhile investment that would get a significant return, given the nature of the way that devices are used for learning. There are sometimes young people who say that creating content will not just be consuming content or doing essays on a device that will actually be creating content for publication online or for others to interact with. The use of devices lend themselves to a far wider range of methods of learning than simply reproducing or inputting notes through or writing essays through a keyboard. There's just a question mark on it for me. I don't know the short answer. I hear what convener said in response. The point that I'm making is that the ability to express oneself through touch typing, rather than the two-finger approach where the brain is focusing on identifying a particular letter or number on the keyboard, is something that is of tremendous advantage in life for a huge range of occupations where one needs to express oneself. In particular, it's difficult really to think of many areas of work other than some manual labour where one doesn't require to express oneself. The evidence does show that touch typing means that somebody is 300 per cent more productive than somebody who cannot touch type. It shows, I believe, that children with dyslexia can gain in particular that those who come to Scotland from other countries with other languages vastly increase their literary skills by being able to touch type quickly, that some children with special needs will benefit in particular, that all children who are able to touch type develop greater confidence in their abilities, that some people who find handwriting difficult—and I'm a left-handed person and you tend to smudge the ink as it hits the page—find typing a less physically arduous thing to do, particularly in the examination context. I think that the evidence is there for everybody to see. I must say, convener, that I'm pretty disappointed with those replies. I do think that this is an area where the education establishment needs to think carefully about whether we are letting children in Scotland down. The last thing that I must say, convener, is that in other countries touch typing is a mandatory part of the curriculum and I can provide more evidence about that. I hope that we can come back to that further, because it would be sad if children in Scotland are missing out on a skill that, in other countries, is regarded quite properly as central to functioning in the modern digital age by the proper use of a keyboard, but it cannot be acquired naturally. I want to talk about additional support needs. I am keen to understand whether we know that we are addressing the need, because the only measurement that I can see is the one that has been identified by the Scottish Children's Services Coalition this week, which highlighted a sharp decline in the number of legally binding education support plans. It is down by around 59 per cent, so it is a significant reduction. Only a tiny number of those who have been identified with additional support needs are getting one of those plans. I am interested in understanding whether we are addressing the need and how we know whether we are addressing the need. I would quite like to start with Greg Dempster first, if that is okay. I will be brief and interested in the time. What I frequently hear from members is that identifying the need is clearly the first step. Within schools, there is only so much that they can do in that regard that sometimes requires external support to formally identify additional support needs. The next hurdle after that is accessing the required support. In all the time that I have been in this role, which is 19 years or something like that, I have never heard members saying that all the supports that they require are there. It is often at the other end of the spectrum where they are saying that they are having great difficulty in accessing the supports that they require for their pupils, whether that is in terms of people's support assistance within the school with adequate time to support individuals appropriately or external additional supports, whether it is educational psychology or speech and language and so on. I respond by saying that we know that there is a high amount of additional needs out there where schools would like to see additional support for pupils. That is really helpful. We are now talking about a third of all pupils in this category. The mainstreaming approach is quite a radical change. I get constant complaints from teachers, pupils and parents that there is just not the adequate support there. What I am interested in is that you say that there has never been a time where it has been adequate. Has it got worse or has it got better? I imagine that the answer to that is different depending on where you sit in each individual school, because sometimes posts are formed and they rest within a school for a while even if a child moves on. The support to experience in different places would be very different, but over the piece. A shorthand answer, my impression from the responses that I get from members would be that that position has become worse, because there are more needs identified. That is very helpful. Will Douglas Hutchison like to comment on that? I would start by saying that we have made huge progress in Scotland and we need to recognise that. I mean, when I started teaching of additional sport needs, special educational needs—as it was called then—you only had special educational needs if you had a record of need legally. It was a tiny, tiny number of children and young people whose needs were ever formally and legally recognised. The 2004 additional sport for learning act and then, as it was amended in 2009, was a huge step forward. In Scotland, you get additional support needs if you need additional support. That is why 30 per cent of our children and young people have additional support needs of one kind or another. Obviously, there are a broad range of needs from—a young person can have needs because they are bereaved, because some tragedy has happened in their family and that that might be temporary, and they no longer have additional support needs to the very complex young people with additional support needs in specialist schools who only access the curriculum through a sensory, through eye-blink or whatever. I would start by saying that, in Scotland, we have come such a long way in relation to that, but the reality is that the legal duty is to meet those additional support needs, but you do that. The law says that, as a director, I have a legal duty to meet all those additional support needs, but the reality is that there is a limited resource to do that. The job becomes managing that resource to ensure that we meet those needs as best we can with the resource available. There is a finite resource, and there is a significant demand, so it becomes about managing that resource and skilling up every teacher in every classroom to be able to meet other broad range of needs. Again, going back to the definition, if I have Mrs Trunspool this year as my teacher—sorry, if I have Miss Honey this year, which is a great teacher, I do not have any problems, and then next year I have Mrs Trunspool, suddenly I have additional support needs because she is not helping me to access the curriculum. I have not changed. The external environment has changed. There is a significant demand and a limited resource, so local authorities have systems and processes in place to ensure that, as best we possibly can, we are able to meet those additional support needs and ensure that the staff who have that daily contact with young people are well placed and well trained to meet all those additional support needs. Thank you for explaining the process, but what I really want to understand is that I get a lot of frustrated parents and teachers and pupils who feel that their needs are not being met and that not just affects the pupils themselves who have additional needs but everybody else in the class as well. What I am keen to understand is whether it has got better from your perspective, and if it has not, what are you saying to Government about changing that? What are you saying to your councillors and the various authorities about priorities? If it is not getting any better, as Mr Demster has highlighted, in fact, it is getting worse, what are we doing about it? I am not clear what the evidence is for it getting worse, I suppose, is my answer. I have almost all of my career being involved in additional support needs. You will know that I am an educational psychologist. Before that, I taught in a residential school for children and young people with social and emotional behavioural needs. I was a behaviour support teacher. I have lived and breathed additional support needs almost my entire career. It has always been a challenge. I cannot remember any time where it has not been a challenge, but the legislation that was introduced deliberately introduced a range of remedies for parents that did not exist before who were unhappy with the level of provision. That acknowledges and recognises that that is a contested area. That is an area where it is always going to be difficult to meet all of the needs. For me, it has always been challenging, but I am not clear that it is any better or any worse now than it was 10 years ago or 15 years ago. What is Margaret Wilson thinking? Again, it will be a difficult one, because we will only hear from parents whose needs have been met. With the pandemic, more children could be deemed to have an additional support need as well. I suppose that, anecdotally, we have heard from parents that they do not feel their needs are being met. Again, I am kind of like Douglas. I do not know whether it is any worse or whether it is doing the same, because I do not know how we would find that out, if I am being honest. We signpost them to inquire, which is obviously a body that can help parents. We have parents representatives on many of the groups that the Scottish Government has for additional support needs. We definitely gather feedback into it, but if you are asking the question, has it got worse? Anecdotally, I would probably say yes, but I do not know how you could measure that, like what Douglas is saying. I think that I will finish there, convener. Thank you, Willie. I thank you for those responses. I turn now to Bob Doris. I know that Bob has made a couple of interventions on subjects that I know he wanted to cover. Bob, is there anything further that you would wish to cover with our witnesses this morning? Yes, there is. I had some, thank you, convener. I would hopefully brief some further questions in relation to absence levels. The stress putig on schools is still conscious of this evidence session primarily about the pressure of Omicron and Covid's still putting on education. That was the primary function of today's evidence session. We heard them at teacher absence levels. We heard them in the past, and I think that it was from Greg Devonstone that they were possibly currently sitting around 5 per cent. I think that I heard that figure. The figures that we have in our briefing are that teacher and all staff absence levels support staff as well was out. In November, it was 2,134. In the middle of December, it was 3,290 or so. Last week, it was 5,200 for teacher and support staff. The trajectory is still increasing. I think that the committee would be keen to know whether the witnesses believe that that is going to increase further. What is the modelling work around when that will taper off and when that will start to dip? The more increases that the greater strain are put on schools, the more we are looking at the impact on education. I think that it was yourself that gave the 5 per cent figure. Can we bring Greg Devonstone in if we have the wrong prayers? I apologise, convener. I did not say the 5 per cent figure, but I did say that around about 5,200 staff were absent on the 12th or the data that was published on the 12th of January. That is 5,200 staff rather than 5,200 teachers. I think that it is about an even split between teachers and those in other roles within schools. The trajectory of absences over that last period was pretty exponential, as we have seen across different walks of life. The next set of data that we would get would relate to today, but we do not see it until tomorrow. We are yet to be able to see in hard data whether that trajectory is continuing or if it is plateauing or if it is falling back a little. It has been in the feedback that I have had from members around the country, which is very variable. Some have continued to have 20, 30 or 40 per cent staff absences, while others have little or no staff absences. However, some of them have been reduced levels of staff absences because of the change to the isolation rules. I suppose that what I am interested in, convener, is that trajectory continues, and hopefully it does not, and the regionalisation could be far higher. When we get to a critical mass, we have to move to the next level, if you like, of the step change in relation to the exams and additional support from Putin. I think that Mr Rainey was propagating. The absences level for pupils on the 7th of January were 7.1 per cent from Covid. I am sorry, it is not a specific witness convener, but does any of our witnesses know what the latest figures are for pupil absences and what any modern work shows and what that is likely to be? I would, convener, if it is okay to come in and say that there are figures collated on a regular basis by colleagues in public health and reported to the service, so I am sure that we can get some information to the committee just in relation to what the figure is at the moment. I think that, as Greg has alluded to, not only across both and what I would say very much on an item, but on a regular basis as well, having spoken with all of the heads of HR across Scotland recently, we are starting to see a decline in terms of absences levels. We are seeing absences levels for other reasons over and above Covid and clearly in the rest. We are starting to see a reduction in those. Obviously, that will be in different parts of the country for individuals in different circumstances. Obviously, in terms of the changed process for self-isolation, that has had an impact in terms of what we have got, but I understand as well that there is potentially a debt with those for children and young people. Clearly, we can come back to the committee with relevant information on that. In my final question, convener, and I suppose that the trend is going down the way, then that is positive and I hope that that endures. However, I suppose that my final question is how have schools improved managing pupil abstinence? My surd just now is that the primary school has got Covid and is self-isolating. Within 24 hours, there was a core literacy numeracy package provided by the school, along with some bespoke work that the class is doing at the time. I suspect that, at the start of the first wave of Covid, schools were scrambling about to do the best they could. I hope that there is a lot more finesse and capacity in the system now. Perhaps Greg Demister's best place to answer that question, then. Staff have to be present to issue the work out to pupils that are self-isolating. If the staff themselves are abstinent and there are other staff filling in, doing police takes and everything else, there is a staff management issue in getting good quality core resources out to pupils that are self-isolating to keep the continuity of learning. Can you say a little bit more, Greg Demister, about where we are now at this stage of Covid and what those constraints are in relation to making sure that we get good quality teaching and learning packages out to young people that are self-isolating? Certainly. On your previous point, the absence rate for pupils was down to 4.1 per cent on 11 January, so it did show a drop. On that point that you are making there, about supporting pupils who are at home through isolation, yes, the practice around that has evolved and improved. Clearly, it is very difficult to support both classes and pupils at home. You talked about the different roles that staff might play in trying to do that, and you have different staff groups with different potential solutions. You have staff who are off with Covid and who are unwell and unable to work. You have staff who are off isolating or who have Covid but are not unwell and are able to set some remote learning. You have staff in school who are trying to maintain in-school learning and sometimes additionally provide a degree of remote learning for those who are absent and isolated. Because there have been those previous periods of remote learning, schools are much better geared up to be able to respond with resources than they were at the start of the pandemic. It has been a clear evolution of practice, but it is still hugely challenging. If you have high levels of staff absence, then everything starts to creak. You have school leaders who might be able to pick up that sort of thing normally, where they are actually covering classes themselves from the start of the day to the end. The ability to provide resources to pupils who are isolating depends on the degree of the staff absence that an individual school is facing. That was very helpful. I have no further questions, but I can see Margaret Wilson's bit of a question to answer with your permission to Nina. I just wanted to make a point on your question, because you spoke about the investment on the devices that have come out to pupils. I just wanted to make a point that the national parent forum has a representative in every local authority, so we can get information quite quickly—a good picture across Scotland just to make you all aware of that. We are hearing that some schools do not let the devices come home, so only primary sixes and sevens might get their device home. If that pupil is self-isolating or is off with Covid, for whatever reason, they might not have access to that device. That has certainly come up a few times within our group, if you like. I absolutely agree with Greg that it is very difficult to, if you are in class, support the pupils that are in at home. I absolutely agree with that, but it is different across Scotland. You have some pupils who are off and getting work home, and pupils who are getting absolutely nothing. It is not a level plain fuelled, I would say, out there. It also comes down to parents at home, whether they can then help their child with that learning or if they are working from home. It is all about the balance, so I just wanted to make that point, if you do not mind. Thank you very much. I appreciate that, Margaret. Thank you, Bob Doris. I wanted to come back to one of the topics that I covered first before moving to my main line of questioning. That was to ask about the IT devices, and I do not want to return to touch typing, which we have covered at length, but I am much more concerned, given the promises made by John Swinney before the election, that every young person in Scotland would have a device and that that device would be connected to the internet, whether or not that is the panelist's experience of what has happened. In my constituency, I am not clear that that is the case. We saw figures suggesting that it may be only one in five young people have access to a device on that basis. Who is that director to? I am happy to hear from anybody whether or not they believe that that promise has been fulfilled, that every young person has access to an electronic device and the associated internet connection. Free device and a free connection. Who would like to take that one on? I am happy to come in. What we understand and what we know to be the case is that more than 122,000 additional devices have been distributed to children and young people. That includes 72,000 devices that have been provided to children and young people who have been identified by their schools at risk of digital inclusion. That is supported by £25 million of funding to ensure that more than 14,000 connectivity solutions are provided. Work continues at pace across authorities. Obviously, it is not a straightforward process of rolling out in one field scoop, so there is a great deal of local effort still continuing in the role of the programme and making sure that we get as many children who are at risk of digital inclusion as is connected. It would be fair to say that it is another example of the gap between the rhetoric that we hear from the Scottish Government and the complexity of the task that it asks local authorities to deliver on the ground. Clearly, it is a complex task. What we have agreed with the Scottish Government is that, although there are not a set time people as yet, we are forming joint governance to oversee the role of the devices so that we can ensure that we are getting it out to children and young people as quickly as possible, particularly those in the greatest need and address the issues that there will be in terms of connectivity and the challenge that this presents. I think that many parents, young people and teachers get frustrated at the promises that things are going to be free and the suggestion that they are going to happen quickly before an election. I am sure that there are best efforts if things take a long time, but I will not push you on the political point again and again. The main question that I wanted to ask was around the use of face masks in school and whether you and the organisations that you represent support the indefinite use of face masks or whether you recognise them at a point in the response to Covid-19 where we should be looking to have them removed as quickly as possible. Directly towards myself, yes. I am happy if the convener is happy for anyone to come in at that point. I will reflect quickly on what we are happy to see happening. All our member councils will be happy to see the best fit for the moment that we are in and making sure that people feel safe in their environment, but also ensuring that children and young people in that environment get the best educational experience. We will always be guided as we have been by the clinical advice. As that changes and we can remove certain mitigations, we will seek to do so, but we would never want to put somebody in a situation where they do not feel safe in being able to access their learning experience. Indeed, we will continue to work closely with colleagues to make sure that we update the guidance and that people are supported in the best possible way. Margaret Wilson wants to come in, Oliver Mundell. Margaret Wilson? Yes. I want to make the point that we do not support the continued use of face masks. We would be asking for it to be reviewed on a regular basis. There is obviously not a clear consensus of the use of them with parents. Some parents do not want any mitigations in school, whereas some of them want every mitigation in school. We represent a wide range of views, but we certainly do not support the continued use of them, but we want to hear and we have asked for evidence of why they need to be used. Again, it was in our feedback this week for a Covid-19 recovery group. When is it going to be reviewed? That is all that we can do, as the parents' voices ask, when it is going to be reviewed on a regular basis. My concern is that we are at a point in which almost all the other regulations and mitigations are starting to be pulled back. Education seems to be at the bottom of the pile, yet young people have arguably faced the biggest disruption so far. Do you think that that is something that parents are concerned about? The education maybe has not... We have heard of a previous question, that devices are not getting out to young people. There does not seem to be an awful lot being done on the exam front. It seems to have been left quite late in the year and now with face masks. We have seen other restrictions go first, and young people have to continue with restrictions. That is a fair observation. The face mask is when we returned to school in August. Do you remember that time when we were not casting my memory back, 12 to 15-year-olds were just allowed to be vaccinated? I think that it was six weeks and it was to be the initial review. The explanation that was given at that time, most parents understood that schools were quite unique and that there were going to be large numbers of unvaccinated children inside. I guess that parents at that point were very much okay. We understand the guidance. It is like everything with the pandemic. You understand it at that point. Again, as I said, we have asked for it to be reviewed, which was always assured that it would be. Just as you are probably about to look at it in a positive light, here comes Omicron. I have absolutely no parent emailing me with concerns that that is what they had to do at that time. Again, nothing really was known about Omicron. Again, as I have said, it is like the wide range. Some parents do not want any. It is quite hard to know, but I think that as long as you get a clear, concise message about why that decision is made, parents are more accepting of it. That is what is quite difficult. I do believe that children are under stricter mitigations than any other area of society. That is why it is important that everything is reviewed on a regular basis for the school mitigations. I do not know whether there is any other comment from Greg Demster. That would be interesting. I think that there are a couple of things at work here. The first thing is that it was only yesterday that the First Minister announced the changes to take effect from Monday. The CERG group has not met since yesterday. It meets tomorrow, so there has not been an opportunity to discuss the changes that are expected for the rest of society. I am sure that the officials in the Scottish Government will be looking at the guidance to identify any changes that flow from that, and I would imagine that there will be quite a few. On top of that, the scientific subgroup that advises the ministers and provides information to the CERG has repeatedly looked again at whether masks or face coverings should be required in secondary schools. It is not an area that my membership covers, but I am part of those discussions at CERG. Their advice up until this point has been to maintain them. I would imagine that they have been asked to look at that advice again as part of their on-going discussions. I feel that we should be led by their advice around that, rather than any local groups that have a particular view about masks that they have always held irrespective of the point that I am doing. You would recognise that masks are a barrier to learning, and you would want them removed as soon as that advice was said. You are saying that I would want that, but I am assuming that that is what you want. From my perspective, I am not hearing a great deal from pupil representatives or young people about face coverings being a huge barrier. Yes, they are, of course, a barrier for some individual pupils and in some circumstances or subjects, but the key point is that this has been part of the pandemic response and it has been a response to advice from the scientific subgroup and others. I would be keen to hear their advice, which will inform any change to the guidance, not just in relation to face coverings, but in relation to all mitigations that are made. My own view is that it is a big ask and I am quite uncomfortable to ask young people to sit at their desk all day in a classroom with a face covering on it. That is certainly something that young people locally raise with me, but I am probably done in terms of questions. I turn now to James Dornan. James, have you got any questions that you would like to put as we draw our session to a conclusion? Thank you, convener. I will be very short. It is really just in the terrible option of us going back the way where we are having to do more hybrid learning and remote learning in schools. How prepared do the panel feel that the schools are? I suppose that this is aimed at Greg. How prepared does he feel that schools are to take that challenge up if it happens again? Evidently, I have heard in relation to the remote learning provided in the first lockdown versus the second lockdown that there was enormous step change in what was offered in most areas. I am sorry, but I am seeing the convener now. Does that mean that I have to shut up? Choose what you plan right enough. A definite step change in provision has been reflected in every bit of commentary that I have seen in relation to that second lockdown period. If we were to see a horrible situation where we are reverting to that, I think that schools are much better placed than they were previously, much more experienced in engaging in that type of learning and teaching. Hopefully, we would see another step of improvement if we did come to that. Okay, thanks very much. I suppose that, just before I finish off, I just want to welcome Douglas Hutchison to classical. You have a big challenge ahead of you, but I am sure that you are going to be more than capable of it. My appearance has never put James Dornan off saying what he wants to say, thankfully. I think that there was a very quick supplementary from Stephanie just to end our session about the very important issue of the roll-out of counsellors for schools. Stephanie, if you would like to ask that very quickly so that we can end our session. Thank you, convener. My congratulations to Douglas too. I didn't do that earlier. I'm great to know that you've got so much background and experience around the ASN stuff. Just going back to mental health a little there, there's been a lot of investment from the Scottish Government, including the £60 million for counsellors across secondary schools, and what I'm hearing is that that's really quite patchy. In some areas it seems to be working, and there seems to be great progress in other areas, not so much there. It was just to see if you were able to comment on what the challenges are there and how we might be improving that, whether it might be regional improvement collaboratives are looking at it or whatever. I don't know if this is something that would come under Simon's remit to have a wider view or if it might be a question for Douglas. I have to be very brief. I'm afraid that we're really out of time. I'm happy to comment on it. It was very much a very targeted budget from the Scottish Government, with a clear expectation that there would be a counsellor for every secondary school. The challenge is clearly getting a counsellor for every secondary school with such a massive expansion in the provision, but I understand that it was progressing reasonably well, but the Scottish Government had more data on it. Certainly I'm aware that there was good provision in the south, and there was at least a counsellor, at least one in every school. It was very targeted. It was very specific what the budget was for. It was very clear what the expectation was. The challenge is clearly getting that number of bodies in such a short space of time and ensuring quality counsellors with appropriate supervision. I keep saying thank you to Douglas Hutchison, Greg Dempster, Simon Cameron and Margaret Wilson for giving us so much of their time. We've gone quite a bit over time, I apologise for that, but it's been a very useful session. The public part of today's meeting is now an end. The committee meeting next week will involve an evidence session on the issue of drink and needle spiking. I will now suspend the meeting and ask members to reconvene on Microsoft Teams, and that will allow us to consider our final agenda item in private.