 Hello everyone. I'm Jim Garrison. I want to welcome you to this session of humanity rising as we convene day five of a five-day program on the situation in Ukraine Today, I just want to Accentuate something that was in the news just a few minutes ago about Russian Missile attacks across much of Ukraine that killed apparently 19 People this is happening within the context of what we've been discussing over the last couple of days of a stalemate in Ukraine Ukrainian forces are expected to be launching a counter-attack and a spring offensive momentarily there's discussion in various places around the world of the war of attrition that is now grinding on and the utility of further a combat in a situation which is only destroying Ukraine and not really moving the borders that have been secured by the Russians essentially over the last year as they consolidated Territory in eastern Ukraine and southern Ukraine to secure a land bridge to Crimea Leak documents are showing that the Ukrainians are losing Soldiers at seven to eight to one With the Russians so that for every Russian soldier that's being killed seven or eight Ukrainians Are being killed at the same time nuclear weapons Tactical nuclear weapons are being deployed in Bilo Rus to match the US a tactical Nuclear weapons in Eastern Europe, so we have a situation in Ukraine That is both Stable in a certain way but also escalating in other ways that makes the situation even more dangerous Which is accentuated by escalating tensions with China and then also at the same time China has taken an extraordinary initiative Without the United States and has been visiting various capitals with a peace initiative and Xi Jinping and Volodya Zelensky just talked a few days ago and apparently had very frank discussions and So we have in Ukraine a complexity that includes not only the fog of war But also the beginnings of a movement Toward a recognition that the war needs to end And so we're very fortunate today to have someone with deep both diplomatic experience But also military experience Who will be shedding a light on the situation and the complexities that we're all Witnessing in that part of the world which is now happening within a global context before we jump in Let us pause as we always do as we begin our sessions on humanity rising and simply breathe together With escalating turbulence and chaos in our world props the most important thing that we can do is is develop inner coherence and There's no more way that's more effective than simply engaging in conscious Coherence breathing so in a moment for those of you who are new Will you'll hear the sound of a bell when you hear the bell? Just breathe in very slowly for about five and a half seconds. You'll hear another bell. Just breathe out We'll take ten breaths together and then we'll begin our program. Thank you everyone. Welcome to humanity rising Thank you everyone Now it's my pleasure to introduce my co-moderator and partner Jodi Evans the co-founder of code pink which is Cosponsoring this a summit on Ukraine Jodi. It's always a pleasure and I turn the program over to you Thank you, Tim and So I don't want to miss a minute to go forward because we have an amazing guest today But here we are at the end of this extremely affirmative week and we have a brilliant courageous and deeply thoughtful guest Who has had the front row seat into the world of war and The contortions that lead to it Our guest Larry Wilkerson is a retired United States Army colonel and the former chief of staff to Secretary of State Colin Powell During his time in the US Navy's Pacific Command. He was in South Korea, Japan and Hawaii Colonel Wilkerson was responsible for the review of the information from the CIA Used to prepare Secretary Powell for his very famous infamous February 2003 presentation to the UN Security Council Which was that pivotal moment that Bush needed to go to war on Iraq After leaving the government he was a distinguished Jump professor of government and public policy At the College of William and Mary and taught national security affairs at the George Washington University He also received the Sam Adams Award for integrity in intelligence Colonel Wilkerson is also a non resident fellow of the Quincy Institute for responsible statecraft Who's a partner with could pink in the calling for diplomacy in Ukraine Larry shares his wisdom across platforms from students to members of Congress from the public To those in power meeting common sense Something we discussed yesterday So welcome Larry. Please Join us We look forward to this conversation with you Good to be with you Thank you So we've um talked a lot about this week about the propaganda that takes us to war And as I just mentioned you you were right there in a in a moment of a seeding of propaganda and you see it Daily What what how do you see us dealing with that? I mean it's so hard to get truth and we're so grateful you're with us today But what have you seen and in the change of propaganda and how hard it is to get through it I think the american people today Have every right to be suspect of almost every mainstream media source that serves them so to speak And I say that because I have seen over the last well really the last half century But certainly in the last 20 plus years The media become almost like William Randolph Hearst citizen tain his media When the the media's mantra was uh, you find some place you want to go to war and I'll sell it for you And that's what the media has become and nowhere more blatantly and more Unilaterally than this ukraine conflict It's almost as if they've discovered a war that all of them from the washington post of the new york times So you name it love It's whites. It's christians. It's european now. Oh, it's those bloody russians who we never liked anyway um It is a disaster of what's happened with london even berlin other capitals paris washington leading the way The warmongering that's going on in the media now It's dissipating and attenuating a bit now because of some of the things you suggested in your opening remarks and others too Um that things aren't going too well And they're going to go downhill from here Especially if ukraine decides to mount To execute this so-called offensive that's coming up because they are going to lose enormously And that's sad really sad So the media does not serve the american people anymore And it's very difficult to search on the internet. You can if you're assiduous and you're diligent Find sources that will tell you the truth, but it's difficult because there are so many cacophonous and otherwise half correct A quarter correct sources on the pentagon on the internet too And so it's difficult. It's difficult. There's no one speaking truth to power and frankly When I go out in the hustings and meet with americans They seem to be unusually content with that That's bad. That's really bad Yeah, that's bad on all levels. I know I haven't it the american public feels like they've been Rocked to sleep. Um, and I think the propaganda is part of that because if you can't find the ground And you can't trust anything It's hard to know what to do and I you know, I think it's they've been on purpose This has happened. It's not on accident. It's it's constructed that way I think you're right and I I was just out at the prisker institute in chicago Which is a very prestigious military museum and group of people who study the american military And one of the things that came across loud and clear was there's no skin in the game Americans do not have any skin in the game. They don't have any monetary skin in the game because we're just printing money out the It's incredible what we've done. These wars have been fought on the printing presses. That's what they've been fought on Um, there's no war tax. No one coming to you the door and saying thousand dollars this week thousand dollars next week in order to finance these wars Thank you very much. How long do you think these wars would last if if that were the case and Only one percent of the american youth are serving so The major amount the people who graduate from princeton and dartmouth and harvard and are nfl linebackers and such They don't have to worry. They don't have to go to a combat zone. So there's no skin in the game. That's part of it So, yes, it's it's and even this last war was sold kind of like a comic book You know, it's like there's supermans elinsky and then there's the evil, you know monster Putin and it's a comic book and you know And behind behind that evil man, but i do you remember pootin is that yellow man jijin ping It's like a comic book series and i liken the media these days the comics Yes, yeah, it's so simplified and dumbing down. Um, definitely the american people you talked about no skin in the game um, the recent Pentagon report that only 77 oh no 77 percent of us citizens 18 to 24 Are ineligible to serve in the military That's correct. Um, they're either intellectually ineligible or they're obese Um, the military is so desperate right now the army for example was 15 000 recruits short last year um So desperate right now that they have started a program at fort jackson south carolina and an adjunct at fort benning georgia to get people fin To bring people in who otherwise would not be able to be recruited because they're too obese And to thin them down little attention. Are they paying to the medical community saying, you know what? Recidivism is like amongst people like this one once you get them thin They'll go back 90 percent of them will go back to being obese again And then what have you done you put the problem on the platoon leader in the service in the combat zone And then the other thing they're doing is creating another magnum eras 100 000 That was defense secretary robert magnum eras bringing in of less than eligible intellectually people and educating them and trying to send them To war and they went to vietnam and a professor has just done a really stunning book on this and showed what happened to them Um, they either got other people killed or themselves killed or both or they performed Abjectly in the combat zone and we're doing it again. We're educating people at fort jackson south carolina What we're really doing is teaching them the test And that's a crime. I mean that's a crime against humanity. Yes. Yes So, um Going back to the media and you know, I'm I'm curious because you're someone who Everyone looks to because you are inside of it. You're you you're studying this. It's you know constantly Are you on the media as much as you used to be? No, I've I've refused now to do Mainstream media. I've stopped it entirely I do do state department salvura the truth that they're broadcast into the arabic world And let me tell you something that happened to me recently there The occasion was the 20th anniversary. I hate that term Uh with regard to the invasion of iraq and of course we're supposed to be a happy term But that was the occasion and people were on before me and they were talking about this that and the other thing All positive about iraq and I came on and the the lebanese interviewer in arabic asked me translated in my ears He said what do you what's your view of iraq? I said total disaster I thought he was going to fall off his chair Then he started asking me more questions and I started telling him telling him why it's a total disaster And why the middle east is a total disaster because of what we did the forces we unleashed And after it was over 20 minute interview I get up to leave and he walks over takes his earphones off walks over and shakes my hand And says thank you for telling the truth Whoa, yes Alhura arabic for the truth. Yes Well, so let's talk about some truth. Um that syhersh is trying to spread Around who blew up Nord Stream? Um What what's happening in washington around that they've been able to just Silence the story Um, they wanted to they wanted to I I wouldn't be at all surprised If the immediate story that came out about the ukrainian commandos and the roboat That that wasn't fabricated by our own intelligence community didn't work very well And it was a lousy lousy fabrication But there are other stories that have been put out there to counter that too that are more sophisticated Um, when you look at it you you you know, there are only two or three countries with the capacity to pull off something like that One of them is the united states one of them is russia one of them is china There might be one other out there somewhere But I don't know about them if they exist, but I do know about the us capability because I was Shall we say involved in a top-secret working group when I was at state That looked at their capabilities and looked at what they might be able to do for us in another scenario So I knew they were there I had even postulated a week before that they might be used if someone wanted to do that And for the life of me, I can't think of a reason that anyone else would have done it other than the united states So I have to conclude on those two parameters That yeah, we did it and we'll never confess of course in the stunning thing to me if that is the case Is one did we tell the chancellor of germany the most important country in europe other than russia? and second If we did how the heck did he convince himself to go along with it because right now I've talked to members of the bundestock right now The energy the germans are getting the the natural gas they're getting is dirty much dirtier than nord stream was providing One bundestock member told me about nine to ten times dirtier And it's somewhere between five and nine times more expensive. It's coming mainly from the permean basin in texas fracking And that makes it dirty So so i'm asking myself how long is this going to last how long is this going to last if they have a really tough winter next year They were lucky this year. They had a mild winter If if things really turn sour on the german economy, we're also trying to wean them off china How do you wean some off their major trade partner? This deal we just did with australia We are essentially telling australians, you know do this deal with us and ignore or even worse You're a major trade partner china. This is preposterous and yet this is what we're doing. This is what empires in decline precipitous decline do But why why do people go along what what? it's obvious it's in decline what allows germany and australia leadership to get away with doing this because you know, it's It's like they're climbing on to the titanic That's a very good metaphor They do not see any other power in the world As being as comfortable as their relationship with washington has been since 1945 Colm Powell turned to me When I first joined him lieutenant colonel. I wasn't about to say too much to him 1989 and he says larry You know the whole situation in europe is going to change Francois meet there on helmut coge on major maggie thatcher all these people are going away their feet were in the war When they are no longer there when there's no one there that remembers that american seminary cemetery at normandy Who remembers those gis that waited the shore to liberate france? We're in trouble. Well, I think we're in trouble But we're not there quite yet because there's still this lingering sensation that whom do I fly to If I leave washington I've been such a A disciple Such an apostle of washington for so long. I can't go to moscow. I can't go to beijing I can't go to tokyo. My god that country's disappearing their demographics are horrible Um, where do I go and then they say? Well, I have no choice and they stay with washington my Comment to them when they'll listen is you need you got 740 million people in the eu now You have a gdp the equivalent of hours 22 23 trillion dollars. You need to grow up You need your own security identity. You need to just do away with nato You need to be a power in your own accord. Of course, they can't get their political act together But but I think they were close to it. I think that the ukraine war has a lot to do with how close The eu was getting to russia And how disturbing that was for the united states. I I clearly think that you know Blinken and those folks saw that the eu was becoming a friend of russia and it was a You're a russia relationship building and that freaked them freaked them out and that's why I mean I don't understand, you know how they're getting away with the devastation to economies in europe that this War is That's a good question. It's a good point Um, I still think the european security identity that we were trying to build in 1993 and 94 for example It would have been a separate brigade that would have been Apart from nato. It could operate on its own. It wouldn't attract from nato. They wouldn't do that They wouldn't go along with that and I saw us actually indirectly trying to undermine it too because we didn't really want it to happen Right. Um, as I said, they're too accustomed to what they've become accustomed to over the last decades Once that goes away once that feeling goes away. The transatlantic link is broken The alliance will be done away with fairly soon. I think it's going to happen really fast really He engineered to a certain extent Jan Stoltenberg the director general of nato secretary general nato We engineered to a certain extent the elections in norway finland sweden We got our people into position. I'm convinced that it's less than 50 of all of those new members of nato finland included the most dramatic new member That really wanted this to happen But they they had governments that were able to engineer it and it happened We had a hand in that And you're right. I think part of I call them winking blinkin nod and nudge Referring to biden blinkin Sullivan and victoria newland always standing in the wings waiting aspirant secretary of state Um, they are trying to reestablish us of gemini iron clad over europe particularly germany And and the fact that the europeans can't see that or apparently if they do see it and understand it or frightened of going elsewhere Frightened of their own shadow Because they don't see that they can get their political act together And form a body that's formidable and able to compete with washington and with moscow Maybe moscow should be a part of this by the way That was our intention in 1991 and two under george hw bush We were going to offer them nato membership even Yeah, which would have been great. That would have been peace. But god forbid we have peace on the planet And and the greatest diplomatic failure in the history of the planet is going to be recorded if there are historians alive to record it We were actually dismantling 75 000 nuclear warheads We got down to about five or six thousand on each side russia and us mainly But we were doing that hell been for leather We were just dismantling and now we stopped and we're starting to build again That's going to be the greatest diplomatic failure in probably human history, particularly if we have a nuclear war Well, let's talk about nuclear war because you know, when I started to see The war building from the united states towards china about over three years ago The first thought I had is like really do they think they can win a nuclear war? Like they why would they do this? Unless they have some concept that they could win a nuclear war Because they lose anymore. What china like chinese billion four hundred thousand people Um, I've been asking myself the same question and other people the same question my students the question I've had some really bright students really bright students They taught me more about the george devy bush administration than I knew from my personal experience for example over 16 years um I actually think there are people who do not understand what they're doing Lots of them and so their entire approach is first their own personal ambition for power money. You name it Set don't ever discount the lure of filthy lucre. That's what we're based on today is filthy lucre Predatory capitalism that is just running rampant all over the globe And it's created the greatest mal distribution of wealth probably in human history. That's no Under that's no overstatement. I might have understated Um, if you know anything about thomas pickety, you know What his writings are on the basis of how we construct Inequality regimes in the world what we have the greatest inequality regime in the world right now engineered principally by us in china That's not going to last very long if something isn't done to attenuate it and ameliorate it But that's just the fundamental layer cake if you will what's on top of that is a bunch of people Who are probably the worst leaders the world has ever seen in terms of comprehending what it means to look out for your your generations in the future To understand what it means to protect your country in a real viable sense who understand what it what it means to Make the non proliferation treaty for example A real treaty where you're actually reducing the number of nuclear weapons on the planet not increasing them enhancing them and so This leadership is ignorant We have not elected anybody in this country as A congressman or a congresswoman Or member of the executive branch with formidable power in a long time Who has any grasp of what i've just described a look at the future a realization of what humanity is facing Look at the climate crisis. You know Yesterday I was on a webinar with a member of noa who is one of the president's team for dealing with the climate crisis And she laid out a staggering statistic for us that in the past 20 years A billion dollar disaster has occurred in america about every 82 days But in the past five or six years of that 80 of that 20 years It's increased now to a billion dollar disaster every 18 days And I wanted to ask the question. What will it be in another five years because it's just going to be worse We need leadership that sees the real crisis in the world and goes after them with the vengeance We have a leadership that's still operating on. I need to make money. I need to be president I need to win a second term. I need to win my seat in the congress from a common millionaire I need to win my seat in the senate and certainly become a millionaire I need to then be a lobbyist on k street and make millions more These are the motivations our people have they are very unethical low-brained people And we put them in office And we're going to pay for it. We're going to pay for it dearly Well, I mean we also have the lie that we live in a democracy and then we suck everybody's brains hearts and money into a charade of elections That drains all the energy that should be spent You know calling for the needs of the people instead sucked into some Structure that's just a bunch of You know guns for hire that will take your money and who knows what's going to happen It's not democracy because you can have a democracy without A journalism and without equality It's a capitalist democracy without What you said you must have an informed and informing media You must have labor unions and a viable workers movement that checks the predatory capitalist And you've got to have as jefferson said so eloquently an informed public if you don't You're done. You're toast. You cannot have a democracy without those three ingredients, especially one that's based on capitalism Yes, and um, you were talking about climate change and so we've seen you know, the studies have been done That show that war and militarism Are the greatest contributor to climate change the numbers are so great That basically you can say the sentence it doesn't matter. What else you do if you don't end war we're going over the edge and You have biden talking about climate change and having this office you discuss but Driving war sending more weapons and not sitting at a diplomacy table um How you know what that's another example of not caring about a future Ukraine is an exemplar for everything you and I've just said Sad to say because people are dying and dying at a Quite an exorbitant rate although I will say in africa and yemen. They're dying at an even faster rate We don't seem to be interested about these Arabs and these black people who are dying In sudan the situation is terrible We we have a situation I think where Americans have been sold this war but are beginning Almost perceptibly now I think and I'm going to go out west here next week and feel around out there a bit To understand that they're being ill served by the media and that this war is not what it's being built to be If we go ahead the way we're headed right now with this stalemate and the u kranians launched their offensive And they get Butchered the way I suspect they're going to because the russians are in echelon defense now And anybody who knows carl von clausbets in his book vomkrieg on war You know, that's the strongest form of warfare. So do the russians. They're very good at this kind of warfare So they've quit this, you know massive attacks and all that kind They're just going to attract the u kranians at every echelon of that defense until they're none left They were going to be at a point where putin is in the high chair as it were going to negotiations That would probably be a disaster for ukraine because that means you've got to give more and more on your side We need to stop right now And the design is there right now you can see all the points I pointed them out the other day to a member of congress All the points that we need to negotiate and you can see all the positions the problems are becoming acute in both countries And I mean washington and moscow domestic political situation Because putin is in a situation now where if he gives anything that back in moscow is seen as a major concession He may be replaced by people worse than he And that means probably nuclear weapons use On the other hand, biden has voiced himself on his own political patard too because he's declared again And he's going to run again and he can't be seen as backing away from this conflict in a significant way too soon Because he'll get blamed for it too think lbj in vietnam and put in a half million troops in vietnam when lbj said quote Oh ho ain't gonna be moved by no more bombs That's what he said. He knew he couldn't win that war But he put a half million troops in there and we had 30 000 more casualties Domestic politics is bad on both sides, but we need some courage We need some courage on putin's part and some courage on biden's part to end this conflict Because as you pointed out and as your event here is tailored towards i think we're headed for nuclear war And that is everyone's peric victory if you will that isn't even peric It's going to be a disaster Well, you mentioned you have some points for diplomacy because we're also I mean, you know with plenty and code pink and many other partners have been trying to talk about diplomacy and um Medea disrupt and we're not even disrupted. Medea went up really respectfully To congresswoman nancy polosi the other night and said, you know Congresswoman, we really need diplomacy. We need peace And she said no, we don't need that we need victory And you and I that's the same thing is sending 500 000 people to die. And what's nancy polosi's skin in the game? What's in feinstein's skin in the game? What's chuck schumer's skin in the game? What's mitch mcconnell's skin in the game zero none? They should leave the congress immediately as being too old to think No skin in the game Sons and daughters in the military that's going to die out there They don't they've no skin in the game the democrats have been feckless in not bringing up anyone Look at we got a president who's going to be 80 plus They have not nurtured anyone to be competitive And that's feinstein and polosi and schumer That's their fault. Well, they're narcissists. So we we know that and they don't Well, but you know The points of diplomacy that you shared with congress. I would love to hear what you shared I thought I I think it's really fairly simple the first the going in Position of the United States is ukraine will never repeat never be a member of nato Second we recognize your sovereignty over Crimea done deal. It's yours Ukraine has the port of Odessa, which is actually better than Sevastopol So what the heck is the argument for in terms of access to the city? Um, the second point is to mr. Putin If we're going to recognize your sovereignty over Crimea and by the way 60 or 70 of the people in Crimea want that Um, you need to recognize kosovo I don't know if you've seen that article in the national geographic. They just came out. It's a great article It describes the situation in kosovo. It tells you how those Women mostly are trying to resurrect that basically albanian country and how the serbs with russia's backing Are keeping the country split apart at the new bridge You can't hardly cross the new bridge to the north if you're albanian a kosovar You can't hardly cross it if you're a serb to the south It's really a tenuous situation and russia's exacerbating it and they've never recognized kosovo as an independent state So that's what you have to do mr. Putin and then you go on down and you say we need a stalemate We need a stalemate. We got a stalemate. Let's have a ceasefire a ceasefire And then you put in un forces or osce forces or something to manage that ceasefire And maybe you need a demilitarized zone. Maybe you need a 15 wide 15 kilometer wide or maybe even a 30 kilometer wide And then you need referenda in the in the uh, eastern oblasts and if more than 60 percent say i want neutrality Fine, you don't go to kiv. You don't go to moscow if they say they want affiliation with moscow You try that if you if they say they were on affiliation with kiv you try that and you get the people to buy that Then you move on through that process diplomacy in this situation and most situations not about win-win It's about lose-lose You each lose a little but it's not too much to break your position Uh, and you got to do that because your domestic audiences are not going to Support what you do unless you do I think the recipe is there Here's the problem as I said You got to have a lot more casualties and a lot more uh stalemate before you can that's what richard Haas my old boss and charlie cupch and then their article in foreign affairs said the other day And I was a paul by you know, I know richard's probably politicking for a position in the biden administration But you know, uh, they essentially said we got to kill a few more people and go a few more years in this stalemate Before we can sit down and talk because then everybody would be tired enough to talk Are you kidding me? horrific Is that the best you can do? But but they knew that when they were already at the table and decided to go to war I mean whenever because that's a decision on all sides. Yes. Yes So that work could only happen with the united states elinsky and you know, putin kind of like, okay I mean kind of probably the u.s. and zealinsky um because Otherwise you stay at the table because you understand people are going to die But they don't care who's going to die and the fact that you know this climate change and what you've described Because you described it as a billion dollar disasters, but people die And one of those disasters was Buffalo this winter. Yep The freezing over buffalo where people died because guess what the infrastructure isn't there anymore No one's coming to save you wait until this water that's building up at the high altitudes in southern california And elsewhere it pours down once it gets loose The flooding there is going to I have friends in los angeles who tell me that their electric bills last year were 1800 to $2,000 a month and they still had brown ounce and blackouts Yeah, and they had multiple back-to-back 100 plus degree days This is coming. It's here In the global south it's here big time There are people who already can't farm because it's too dry or in some cases. They're floods um in the southern part of iraq for example where Sodom is saying tried for years to get rid of the marsh Arabs They're gone virtually because the Tigris and the freighties is a trickle down around bozera It's happening and guess what the billion or so people in the global south hate our guts Because they see us as the big doer in all this catastrophe and not doing anything about it Well, so I'm going to ask one more question. Look jim has some questions. I'm sorry. I'm so greedy jim Well, so, you know, we talked about the eu coming together and creating a an alternative power structure But what we are seeing with ukraine is the global south going if you can sanction russia For do for doing less than what you do every day And call it a rules-based order. We're all screwed. So we're just going to dash. Thanks very much. We are going to leave you And we just saw dilma being inaugurated as the head of the bricks bank last week And we are seeing bricks stronger than ever and growing Indonesia got You know joining pakistan growing the middle east joining the bricks could represent five Five billion people When it's done coming together It's a you know I keep telling people look the united states has made enemies of one third of the world Um, if you go to o-fact the office of financial assets controller, you'll find out they officially say we have 32 Countries under massive sanctions It's much higher than that actually and the indirect sanctions probably impact two to three billion people in the world They all hate our guns. I don't blame them We couldn't even get humanitarian supplies into the victims of the earthquake in syria because so many people were scared of our banking sanctions Um, that's what we've done. We've made lots of enemies in the world. It Tastes me you act to dick cheney. We said I don't want to be loved. I want to be respected and feared Mostly feared Well, that's what we've done. That's rome. That's rome towards the end of its empire Oh, by the way, you know what rome did towards the end of its empire instead of having citizen soldiers Which was always the bulwark of rome. They hired people. They had mercenaries What are we doing? But that today? Um, you're right The rest of the world is going to gang up balance us and do away with us or make it our lie Our lives really difficult Oh, I look at it when the empire's over we could just become italians, which are pretty cool I try to look at it with an optimistic view if they go rome You know the empires die and you know, look at those italians. They're happy and cool. Well, we need it I don't believe in us dying. We're 3000 miles across two benign neighbors two big oceans 340 million people 200 million of whom we put on the earth since world war two if you can believe that But we need to get our act together and we need to be a beneficial for the world power Rather than a detriment to the world power Well, but I think what it'll do it'll it'll let go of trying to be The the king of the world And take all that energy back to caring for the people of the united states That would be a beautiful thing to have happen and that would have repercussions all across the globe Would they would be beautiful too So So much good we could do if if you just took the two trillion dollars that we've wasted on these wars in the last 20 years You could fix About half of the problems that we have in a good portion of the problems the rest of the world had We wasted that money But it's actually 20 trillion dollars. We at IPS. We did an audit of all. Yeah, it's 22. I don't doubt it I don't doubt it. I'm so I'm looking at do d's figures. Yeah Yeah, yeah, I know it's like all the expenses and all the contractors and yeah, it's 20 trillion dollars We could have fixed everything. So may may we you know lose the empire soon and be able to Really nourish the country that needs it's our attention Jim sorry questions from you argument I would make is that Someone else needs to manage that fix because we proved in Afghanistan. We can't even do that Larry you're astonishing I I'm loving this conversation and You know, I would love to just kind of back up Uh a little bit because I think people would be very interested in our global community You know, what was your pathway? You know, you were in the military You were in the state department. You had diverse experience. You were you were at very high levels Tell us about how you kind of woke up to The reality, you know, we've had a number of people on like Daniel Ellsberg and and others who were very highly placed uh, and they went through a process of of self-awareness To finally they realized the the truth of what was going on and they began to act on it In in various ways and your clarity is astonishing for someone with that depth of military and And diplomatic experience. So take a few minutes and just tell us a little bit about your your background and and how you came As aware as you've become Because that's pretty rare as you pointed out early most people just Go along to get along and their careerists or they want money and and they they don't speak out But you've you've you've taken a different path. Tell us about that path I think I was very slow learner I mean, I used to tell my wife, you know I really am one of the slowest learners I've ever known I started out in vietnam with Some real real reservations about what we did in vietnam Indeed about what I saw all around me in vietnam But then I turned myself inward as a military professional and tried to do the best I could in that respect but as I Mounted the the pinnacle if you will and that started with my working for Admiral crown and the navy in the U.S. Pacific command admiral crowd being the chairman before powell And then got drafted into powell service and worked for him and then 12 years of that and ending in the state department where I had come to think of colin powell as the reincarnation of dwight david eisenhower black eisenhower was the way And I saw What the rest of the us establishment did to colin powell? Up close and personal. I saw it. I saw it. I saw what it did to his character I saw what it did to his spirit. I saw what it did to the man And I said when I left there And I was tortured for about six or seven months before in october of 2005. I began speaking out About what to do about it. Should I write a book? Should I do this? I said no you need to talk to the american people and try to get there at the entrance And to use your experience and I had lots of students helping me on two different university campuses doing case studies on the war and uncovering things I didn't even know about And at the end of all of that I realized that Marine general smeadly butler was right when he told the congress I've been a criminal on two continents for capitalism No more truer words ever flowed from a military professional's mouth Who medals of honor the only Person in american history to have two medals of honor A general too. He said I've been a criminal on two continents Al Capone Has in the candle to me. He said he had a state or two. I had two continents I raped have pillaged and plundered with my marines For a capitalism on two continents. He said this to the congress of the united states Very smart man, but he was a slow learner too. He spent time in china Time in the caribbean all over the world really for capitalism as he put it and he realized That's what he was. He was a criminal for capitalism and that's what I realized Well, uh tell us uh As much as you can I know probably there's there's uh various strands that Even today aren't publicly Accessible but I'd love to have you since you were so close to colon pal Tell us the The story of That un speech and the events surrounding it leading up to it Because I think that was one of the most extraordinary moments In in modern american history where someone of his integrity and stature Lied to the global public justifying a war that ended up being completely indefensible It must have taken a huge toll on him and yet he did the act And you were there right in the inside of the inside. Could you just tell us the story? I did an interview with magna chakrabarti um pbs Wb tv i guess boston pbs boston npr boston um, and I it was a it was very close to his death And I was I was really hoping that it would get out all across the country and explain the people It's very difficult. I have a thousand page manuscript in which I deal with it It's very difficult to explain to americans, especially white americans what it means to be The number one man in the military of the united states of america and to be black It's very difficult to they have no conception. I have no conception But I have a better one than they do because I served the man for 16 years Um, he taught me more about the black american experience than any book ever could So did his wife alma Um, they had very different views, you know Alma would say things like we were better off when we were segregated because we had our churches We had our families. We had our schools Everything was working Everything was beneficial to us to hell with the fact that we were economic slaves. We were unto ourselves good people Now look at us what's happened to us scattered all across the spectrum of america on drugs committing suicide criminals and so forth Um, that's totally opposite the way he felt. He felt because the military had given him every possibility And judged him not by the color of his skin But by the content of his character and professionalism He felt a deep loyalty to it And would not tolerate anyone saying you got there through a formative action, you know Um, probably no better case Actually existed in the military of someone who got there on his own competence That was part of him And no white american can understand that no white america not me can understand that But I tried to explain it in both written narrative and the magna on that interview The second point is the bush family had been very very loyal to him Particularly barbara who really won the bush dynasty Um hw's wife barbara bush and he felt a certain loyalty to the bush family That loyalty was tattered and eroded majorly when at the end of the day brent skokrov came to washington because President bush wouldn't do it george hw bush wouldn't do it And carried hw the father's message to the oval office telling his son He was making a mistake to go to war in iraq. He wouldn't listen. He wouldn't listen. Why wouldn't he listen now? principally because karl rove was telling him as political advisor You won't get reelected and beat your father, which is your number one political objective Unless you have a war Think about domestic politics influencing national security decision making again. It is the most potent force in america So here you got a president who's so inexperienced so naïve that he thinks that you know, this is the case I will only get reelected if I have a war and by the way a war went pretty good for daddy So a war with rack went pretty good for daddy. So I don't have a war with rack People say that can't be the reason. Oh all contraire It can be the reason and there are a lot of other people playing on their own reasons like israel Like people who wanted oil cheap oil for israel story Which hasn't even come out yet, but it's going to come out in about a month with a book called deadly portrayal Um, mark rich is featured in it mark rich who bill clinton pardoned in the last Ignominius hour of his presidency He was convicted of breaking sanctions in iraq and selling oil to israel at discounted prices Bebe netanyahu was finance minister at the time Why has israel's economic success been so great discounted oil now coming from the curds in northern iraq Big story there too on the influences on why we had the war But pal is wrapped up in all of this with these distinct types of loyalty that he has and he is then Despicably served by the bureaucracy George tenant and john mcgloughlin lied to him in my presence about the intelligence he was presenting He had on the other hand hans blitz Coming into his office and telling him, you know, you put the inspectors back on the ground in iraq And i'll give you with 95 assuredness Whether or not they're a wmd And pal bought that and we went to the un and got un resolution 1441 on november the 8 2002 Which said the inspectors are going back and the vice president without checking with anyone Even his president marched out and gave a speech saying it would make no difference that saddam would fool them and lie to them Just discounting everything pal had done So then you come to january and we're trying to figure out if we're going to war or not We couldn't get blare a second resolution So blare thought he was going to lose the vote in his own heavy heavy labor majority parliament We couldn't get it because russia and france threatened to veto and we knew they would and so here's pal In this situation asked to go up and sell the war in new york He has two choices He can quit and walk out the door and i can go with him because that was a condition of my becoming his chief of staff Or he can stay And see if he can handle the situation to the point where war is not the ultimate outcome diplomacy is But he lost he lost that battle and i think he was being honest when he said that was the lowest point In my career He deserved a better president He certainly deserved a better vice president But i understand the loyalty factor and i understand that he was looking at intelligence i'll just give you one example The third day out at langley the cia headquarters He essentially grabbed me by the shirt Jerked me into a room and sat me down in a chair now He had never physically accosted me before in our whole time together. So i knew something was badly wrong He closed the door and he said we're alone in here, right and i said well boss. It is the cia. He didn't even crack a smile I don't like saddam hussein's connection with 9 11 al qaeda and terrorism in general which i'm presenting in my remarks I think he thought i was going to object I said let's take it out He looked at me with surprise and said okay, let's do it now I went right to lin davidson a speech writer who was putting together the presentation I said lin take all that crap out. It's garbage. It's about a third of the presentation and more importantly It was the most powerful thing for the american people that saddam had some connections to 9 11 Take it out We took it out 30 minutes later Big mistake by me. I didn't see the deputy director john mcglacklin now a highly paid consultant for cnn I didn't see him leaning against the door. He disappeared We go back to resume a rehearsal that's sort of rudimentary at that point in the dci conference room And tenet gets up and leaves well I was angry immediately because I had told him the secretary's orders were don't ever leave when i'm here practicing He did he left so i'm about to go get him all of a sudden he comes back in he sits down beside the secretary I'm on the secretary's left condi rice is over here rich arm teaches over here steve hadley's over here Pennett is on his right tenet leans into the secretary And i'm right there so I hear it all and he says Mr. Secretary we have just learned from interrogation of a high-level al-qaeda operative About the training by the muqabarat the iraqi secret police Of al-qaeda operatives in the use of chemical and biological weapons Tenet was as serious as a judge Powell turned to me and said lw put it all back in I put it back in Later at the walgore fastoria in my hotel room two a.m. In the morning before the morning of presentation on the un security council floor at 9 a.m. I'm taking stuff out still And i'm taking that kind of stuff out at an alarming rate I don't know how he found out again. It's the cia still mud the counterterrorisms are at the cia Appears in my hotel room Walks up behind me sees me at the computer and he says I understand you're taking stuff out of the presentation I said yes, you're right. It's too long. I'm taking stuff out Powell had had a dress rehearsal that night and he had said it was too long So i'm taking stuff out and I knew damn well what I was going to take out Um, he says well you can't do that. I said watch me And he frustrated left the hotel room next morning on the floor of the Un security council about 30 minutes before Powell was to start Tenant comes up puts his arm around my shoulder and says I understand last night You were taking stuff out of the presentation stuff on terrorism. I said mr. DC. I you're absolutely correct. I was Then he smiled and he said well won't matter anyway Took his seat because one of the things Powell had told him unprecedented Powell had told him you're gonna be Behind me on camera and he was you don't put the director of central intelligence on camera not publicly and Powell put him there because he wanted him taking as much responsibility for the presentation as Powell was Went ahead and the most powerful moment in that to me for the american people was when he said Not in this post 9 11 age, you know these connections of salam Hussein with al-qaeda That was resonating with americans, you know, that was powerful with americans. They associated him with 9 11 and tony blair preposterous lie tony blair actually put out you may recall that salam Hussein could put weapons of mass destruction Uh on london in 45 minutes or so. I mean he had no capability whatsoever to do that But this is Blair's way of getting the vote in the parliament that he won Liars cheats and scandal monitors all around and they served the secretary of state very despicably very illly Um un-american in my view and he paid the price for it. I asked people As we were getting ready. I said why I wanted them to answer the question themselves people on my team including the people from the vice president's office john hannah and Will toby from the nsc staff both neil conservative assholes in my view I said, why do you think pal is going? Before you answer let me let me just remind you that adlai stevensson the un ambassador for the united states Gave a much more formidable presentation in a much more dangerous moment on the cuban missiles In october 1962 Why do you think pal is going? and one of my team very long chron who Was at state at that time he'd been at cia, but he was at state at that time He said because he's the only one who has ratings like mother to race though with the american people Yeah bingo He's going up there to fall on his sword for this despicable administration The deputy secretary of state richard armitage would in my presence call the vice president's office The gestapo the nazis well, let's talk about that for a second because It's the neocons, you know the dick chainies and the richard pearls and the paul wolfowitz's of the world that That really came into power at that crucial moment you know with The bush admitted both bushman administrations, but at that at the time when gorbachev and bush senior Were wanting i think there was an impulse to really go to a the level of statesmanship and and move beyond the cold war the neocons seemed to exercise a strategy That essentially took over The american governmental system in terms of foreign policy administration policy till finally today You have you know the cabal that you spoke about earlier between blinken sullivan victoria newland Joe biden talk a little bit about the the the neocons and the extraordinary success that they've had in essentially capturing the u.s. Government of foreign and national security policy My students gave me great insight into this You know, I really had some brilliant young men and women at women maria in particular, but also in the honors program at george washin And their case studies would go something like this when we get to these points hw bush took the The national security strategy that george w bush his son accepted in 2002 hw bush took it in 1991 and wrote on it send this back to the crazies in the basement of the pentagon That was a skilled experienced President the last one we've had He knew He'd been vice president for ronald reagan for eight years. He'd been head of the rnc. He'd been ambassador to china This was a guy who'd been around the block. He knew that he'd been a what an 18 year old pilot in the pacific war in more war two He knew these people were crazy And it was paul wolfowitz. I mean he was talking to in terms of sending it back to the crazies in the basement of the pentagon His son was a neophyte He had no experience whatsoever and yet he had the most experienced bureaucratic entrepreneur as richard haas called him In the vice presidency. Yeah So that guy dick trainy took over the presidency for national security decision making a most foreign policy from the get go And bush did not push him back into the closet until he fired donald rumsfeld in november of 2006 because the two were joined at the hip You know rumsfeld's the guy who for ford brought a 34 year old dick cheney in to be ford's chief of staff Unprecedented 34 year old chief of staff for the president rumsfeld and cheney were They were bonded at the hip. I had one person tell me, you know, when you see those people the body language You don't know who's vice president and who's secretary of defense and they ganged up on pal from get go Um, he didn't realize it if he had a fault here. He thought he was a little more powerful in persuasion than he was He used the metaphor one day with me coming back from a national security council meeting. He said, you know Cheney knows how to get the president to pull his 45 out and start shooting And I don't know how to get him to put it back in its holster Um, and that was a good metaphor. That's what was happening Cheney would get the last bite at the apple on everything and so cheney conveyed for his own reasons I call them hyper nationalism for cheney rather than neoconservatism But he conveyed the neoconservative mandate Right into the oval office and made sure it was sacrosanct And that in part was war with iraq. They didn't want to stop with iraq They had a war plan for syria and a war plan for iran and israel was right there cheerleading them all the way This book i was telling you about deadly portrayal Is by a command chief master sergeant from the air force by the name of denis fritz Who was in feis office after his retirement Masaad owned that office for the period that they were working on the iraq war Douglas feith was a card-carrying member of the liqud How told george w bush that in his out call on 11 january 2005 He told the president in the oval office Do you know you have a card-carrying member of the liqud party the number three man in your defense department? President said are you kidding me? I could find a card in his wallet and pal said that's just a Yeah, it's a metaphor. He's working for israel donald runceville said quote I don't run this building apac does unquote A lot of forces work on this very inexperienced president and he didn't figure it out for five years or so and let's just segue to the situation in ukraine because I think in those pivotal moments in 1989 90 1991 between the demise of gorbachev and the collapse of the soviet union You know the neocons in that expansionistic the same mentality that wanted iraq afghanistan iran syria was also at play in the united states essentially Using the collapse of the soviet union to take over all of each eastern europe and that's what Fundamentally has led to the conflict now in ukraine so would love to hear your Your sense of I would say the last 30 years of the neocon strategic formulation In eastern europe and how that shaped what's going on now In ukraine because that mentality is still in the oval office and at the head of the state department Uh and the pentagon To the present day. Yes They have been superb entrepreneurs And opportunists no question about it As I indicated they couldn't get anything really serious out of hw bush When I tell people how euphoric we were in 1992 about russia would be a member of nato eventually We were destroying nuclear warheads. We were Inviting russia for the third or fourth time depending on your historian to be a member a real member of europe and Not just from the urals toward europe, but the whole of russia all 148 million people all 11 time zones And then along came yeltsin drunken yeltsin and putin there watching and along came Goldman sacks and larry summers and anatoly chubias and others who ripped up the whole scene in russia They held a fire sale and got rich on fees I think larry summers probably increased the endowment of harvard by several billion dollars because uh ripping off the the soviets and what they did in essence was they took all the communist assets which were quite extensive industrially speaking And they sold them at fire sale prices through the oligarchs who now own them and they got the fees for it Predatory capitalism in its very worst form at work on a former enemy turned Peaceful for the moment and they could take advantage of it and they did That really caused some rancor Amongst a lot of people including bledner putin so it begins there Then we go and bomb for 78 days with bill clinton russia's allies in syria not that melosevic and his gang didn't deserve some bombing But they didn't deserve 78 straight days and the and russia didn't deserve the sort of go away We don't need you anymore. We're going to bomb them anyway bill clinton Looking at the second election knowing full well that without israel's help he never would have beat hw bush in the first place bill clinton is looking at reelection being tough He made a big mistake with don't ask don't tell that was his policy um So what does he say he says to himself? I need some bona fides in the national security arena here I owe again students for these vivid insights students who beavered away in the archives other places um, and he said Who might be my opponent in my second time around? Oh colon pal both parties were searching all across the country for support for pal both parties made him an offer um, almost like eisenhower again What I mean almost it was like eisenhower again There was a committee for pal in every state in the union On both sides of the political coin and that was the real problem With advice he got you can't get elected because of that Because you got both sides wanting you so when you make a decision which side you're going to take You're going to lose It's not politically possible to win There were other reasons too personal reasons that he didn't run but bill clinton was scared So he said I got to burnish my national security credentials because this guy has got them par excellence colon pal Let's expand nato. Let's look like I know what i'm doing And and oh by the way, I got a lot of money from Lockheed martin So they can sell f-16s to poland. They're telling me their wine is going dormant because they're not making Okay, let's sell them to oh, maybe hungry too. And you know, we're off to the races with nato expansion Look at what we've done albania Look at a map sometimes as to where albania is and where montanero is Understand that albania is a criminal state just like north korea is and that montanegro is the automobile theft capital of the world We made them article five members of nato that means That farmer out there in is willing to risk nuclear war for the automobile theft capital of the world That's what we've done. That's what bill clinton did Bill clinton and his wife Did that A lot of help, but you know, americans don't understand both parties are oriented the same way war war and more war You know, the dims may talk occasionally about let's attenuate it here. Let's not do that. Let's do What the dims killed us when we got the yemen war powers resolution passed through both houses Pelosi knew she was trying to stop us from getting it out of the house But she knew she was going to fail because the progressive caucus and others really got together and did what they should do We got it passed in the house. They got over the senate So she decides political astuteness, right? I'll get both sides to praise me The dims who do not want the yemen war to continue with our support and Those who are not wanting to get rid of saudi arabia as an ally So I'll get them both. I'll vote for it in the house. It'll pass and then trump will veto it And that's exactly what happened. We passed it in both houses, but it got vetoed by donald trump So she got both sides on her, you know A duplicitous politician if there ever was one and knew every trick of the trade Really ran the house You could hardly do anything in the house without having her imprimatur which rojana and others will tell you Who were working on this legislation with us So There's not much difference in either political party The dims may just look like they don't love a war but look at what biden has been saying about china You talk about a disaster A war with china first thing's going to happen is two u.s aircraft carriers are going to be in david johns locker They're going to be on the bottom of the south china sea 10 000 americans did with one fell swoop. What do you think america's investment in a war with china will be then When we've taken such casualties I guarantee you if we go to war with china there'll be 100 000 casualties in the first 30 days Well, let's talk about that just for a second It seems From the outside as jody's been saying preposterous that the united states would be Taking on two superpowers simultaneously Russia through the ukrainian proxy war and an escalation With china with more and more rhetoric about the certainty of war in a few years and And in the congress and in the administration there doesn't seem to be anybody even Talking about putting on the brakes. What's what's going on in the pentagon? That That is there anybody questioning this momentum toward War because it's it's a it's a suicidal move not only for the united states, but potentially for humanity There's a there's a principle of international relations that we have neglected to the maximum It's called conservation of enemies and simply stated it says yeah Prudent nation never courts more enemies than it can handle at one time What you just described is insanity and yet that's what we're practicing right now right As so your question about the pentagon There are a few sane people left over there I'm sorry to say not many but there are a few and they're scared to death Because they know what it would mean And what a farce the american military would look ultimately In this conflict for at least the first 30 to 45 days And we're not about to mount offensive operations and put our army, which is smaller than the army of Bangladesh In china in fujin province alone. It would disappear in a week. It'd be gone. It's simply be gone They would envelop it the chinese have more fishing boats that are armed than we have navy Then they have their navy If you've ever seen an array of their fishing boats all of which are armed In the south china sea, you know, it goes from maybe the parasails all the way to high fall It's incredible how many ships they have Now i'm not saying that we couldn't have a decent war with them We would it'd be a a stalemate after about 30 or 40 days We would have shot down their air force. They would have shot down a good portion of ours We will have treaded their navy to the point where it's becomes a fleet in being it won't sally forth It's in port only and they will have done similar things to our navy and remember our navy is tiny Think about the end of world war two seven thousand some odd ships today. We are lucky if we can put 200 ships to sea What do you do after that? Well, i'll tell you what you do because i've done the water gaming What you do after that is you stare at each other Mortally wounded in some ways in terms of your military and you say what next General and they say well, let's put a few tactical nuclear weapons on shanghai Maybe that'll convince them to stop Well, what do you think they'll do back says the civilian who's playing the president in the war game Um, well, maybe shoot some nuclear weapons at us. Yeah, and where do you think they'll aim? Well, los angeles new uh, stop the war game. We're not going any further here Bill Perry played one of these war games that i remember if we're not going there general We're not going there That's the only way you can impact one another once you have conventionally created disaster But then you come back to clauswitz again when he writes in book eight. I think it is about the nature of war Once you have that many dead americans And that many dead chinese You're in for a penny in for a pound We see that phenomenon a bit in ukraine And then you turn to those new And you think, you know, oh i can control this I'll just shoot a few to make them know we're serious You can't Once it starts all of our escalation theory that we developed during the cold war that now everyone's forgotten about Demonstrates, I think pretty conclusively that once you start you're not going to stop Oh my god So this rhetoric about time one and everything just it and you saw the pictures yesterday I guess I was watching on video of the committee in the congress that's setting itself up as the prima donnas of war Yeah, yeah I wanted to say Okay First thing you should do is tell the american people there'll be a tax man on their front porch tomorrow morning for the first thousand dollars You're gonna have to pay instantly be ready to write a check or use your credit card Every single american will have to pay a thousand dollars off the bat and then we'll still be printing fake money Yeah, but they don't even care that 65 of their tax dollars already goes to war You're right. That's the most disappointing thing. Yeah, that's you know, very difficult because it's like you're going without and you're not even watching The country isn't it's a post developed country. It's not even a developed country anymore if you look at the numbers of you know The numbers are Horrible and going down by the day If you go to west Virginia or southern Mississippi, you'll see it. Yeah. No, it's bad So, um, but again too many of the people with their levers on power don't have a clue what's actually happening in their own country and So or don't care but um, you know bill perry And jerry brown talk every day and they get letter, you know, bill perry still writes passionate passionate letters To biden exactly with you know, having gone through those experiences to pull him back on china But this week taiwan back channeled to biden's office Please stop the rhetoric about china bombing taiwan. Yeah Taiwan is china china if you don't understand a chinese mind because china is not going to bomb itself and so but what you're doing is Creating the anxiety in this country that we can't have Um Because you know the last woman the president's lost because she let nancy polosi come to taiwan and they said they're losing investments That investments are leaving taiwan right now so The price of this you know war on china already has casualties It has asian-american casualties and it has casualties of of you know profound anxiety Raising in taiwan that wasn't there before the story. It's a story No different than you know, what we did around iraq. It's a story Um and stories you tell stories enough they will push people into acting Uh, of course, I think she's a more level-headed person than Putin to be pushed by the united states into into action, but We're not thinking about I mean nobody Nobody is caring with power The people that are already bearing The pain of this war Look at what we've done to zealinsky. I mean we we have not only made a sort of paper hero of him Um, this is a man who was making money as a lots of money as a comic speaking fluent russian on the stage in moscow Are you and now now look at what we've done to him and we've done it for lockheed martin and for exxon mobile and a host of other reasons your point about taiwan is very spot-on though because The chinese do not want to ruin the economic relationship, especially the fujin province But china in general has with taiwan nor taiwan want to ruin it with china and look at what we're doing We don't pay any attention to the people. We are quote helping unquote We just bull ahead like a bull in a china shop And that's what we're doing with taiwan and it's going to be the taiwanese who pay the 23 Yeah, they say don't ukraine taiwan. Yep Larry just one final Question that I have and that is about joe biden You know the point that you made about bush junior Was that he was so inexperienced and unsophisticated That he was easy prey for the dick chainies and and sort of the sophisticates of the Of the state department and the and the pentagon, but with joe biden you have someone Who in part because of his age has had extensive experience Both domestically and internationally And yet he seems to be even more extreme than bush junior. How do you understand the I would say almost like the mind of joe biden and the the The alacrity with which he Has been involved in the war in ukraine and now in the buildup to china Because as president of the united states, he's in a pivotal position To to either stop this or change it, but he seems To be accelerating full speed ahead on both fronts. How do you understand biden? And the general situation there in the white house and its state At the moment, you know part of the problem is the people he's picked to advise him There they are all of the same cloth The part of the problem too is we have made contrary to Almost all of our founding fathers one or two of them were of this mind in the beginning The divine right of kings apply to our chief executive Look at the bruja over trying trump That should be no bruja over that at all You know if the guy's a criminal you put him in the courtroom and you try him and you put him in jail You know, I don't care if you live on united states and you tell his secret service Detail, you know what people are talking about as if that were sacrosanct Wait outside the prison for 10 years or whatever Um, this is bull what we've done the presidency is an elixir now And it contaminates people instead of a person like george washington who says I don't want a third term I'd set a terrible precedent. I don't want a third term. I don't want to be here another time I can't set that president precedent You got people to say I'm gonna be here another term and another term and another term. Oh, I love these perks You have no idea how isolated I didn't and I still probably don't really but I have a better view of it The president is and how subject to his advisors he is And how much a creature He is of the captivity of those advisors and how little they get from anyone else in the world who might have a different opinion It's all reinforced the message Tell them again and again and again and again the same message Tell them they won't get reelected if they retreat from this war too precipitously Tell them that they want whole nato together if they don't do everything They tell them that the money won't pour in from lockheed martin raytheon grumman and all the rest of the bastards and the war merchants out there And suddenly they become believers And and it's all about our political system now. It's broken. It's badly broken Larry thank you and we don't have any we don't have any real character in it. We we simply don't we've bred it out The system has bred all the character out of these people Yeah, I think that's that's we're governed by pygmies when we need giants. You got it. You got it We've never never in our history probably because of nuclear weapons and the climate crisis needed giants more Oh, absolutely Larry thank you and thank you for Being so clear and thank you for your courage and thank you for everything that you're doing to bring awareness uh to The the public about these crucial matters that are really determining the fate of the earth quite literally Uh, we're we're in the balance right now and we need to make sure Uh, that we're as informed as we can be and you've brought a lot of truth today So I just want to acknowledge you and and thank you for that Very very much very very much And jody why don't you make a final Comment and then we'll close out add to my gratitude. Thank you. Larry so much and and I hope you understand How much everyone needs your clarity? And also as you say you're going off into the west to see You're right the fog of war is lifting and the crust Of lie is ready to be cracked off people are are ready And I think what we're going to see is the republican party is going to capitalize on this because um, the democrats are too chicken but um The lie is crack is is an easy crack as medea can say as she's out on her book tour across her 100 city book tour across the country Deepest gratitude. Thank you so much. You are peace. That is, you know, the truth will set us free Um and lead us to connecting to each other instead of separating Well, thank you for all that you do and kelvin dea. I said the same thing Thank you Thank you. Larry. Thank you jody. Thank you everyone that'll bring our session to a close for today as we conclude our program on ukraine This has been extraordinary jody. I I uh And then you've given a grand finale par excellence my friend, uh, larry. So thank you so much You're all welcome to the after session chat. You'll see the link in the chat box and we'll see you again on monday For a five day program on regenerative health. Thank you everyone. Bye for now. Have a good weekend