 Hello and welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I'm joined by my friend Uli Salazar who is the senior marketing and artist relations manager at Ludwig Drums. Uli, welcome to the podcast. All right. Thanks for having me. Very excited to be here as a guest again on your podcast. And I can't say enough great things about the work that you're doing. So thank you for archiving such amazing conversations, content and history about the tools and the instrument that we all love. Thank you, man. I appreciate that. It's, yeah, like you said, you're back on because you did the history of the Black Beauty before, which was a really cool episode that I got a ton of great feedback on. And this particular one is getting kind of a, it's been requested multiple times before by a bunch of people. But I'll just say Pete Done, DOAN is the gentleman who requested it most recently. And then I think Nate Testa, who's on Instagram as official snare drum geek has been requesting it too. So on that note, I know you kind of have, there's a kind of a couple ways we can go about this. I mean, I think there's a lot of history to the snare drum, but I think you've got a cool idea of how to really go super far back and give us the whole background. So on that note, why don't you just take it away and teach us about the supraphonic? Yeah, no doubt. I mean, the super is such a treasured drum by so many drummers obviously. I mean, you can't say enough great things about what makes that drum special and unique and the history and how many records it's been captured on. But one of the really fascinating things, particularly about that drum, is everything that kind of went into the final package of the supraphonic, kind of looking and dissecting the history and the lineage of that drum and kind of how we got there. It's really fascinating. And to start it, you really have to go back to 1914 when the beat was born on the all metal snare drum. So Ludwig's first snare drum came out about 1911-ish, 1912. It was a flat shell, brass, nickel over brass. And by 1914, the drum had evolved to have incorporated this beat design, which in the Black Beauty episode, I talked about how that was more of a structural component to combine the top and bottom half of the drum together. And it became a very prominent thing in the sense of the strength and durability of the drum. That's kind of how it was marketed. There's a funny ad from the early or the mid 1900s of the two gentlemen kind of standing on a plank that's fixed on top of the drum to kind of show that it can support so much weight and their ability of this design and so forth. And so as the great marketers, as the Ludwigs were, you know, that was kind of one of the easiest ways to kind of showcase quality and strength. And that was a very important thing. Obviously, that resonates with a lot of people considering any product. And it's practical so you can go out and stand on your drum like people do. Right. It's exactly what you want to do with this snare drum. Don't play it, stand on it. But it was a really unique way at the time to really showcase that point. Totally. And as the drum evolved, the beat always remained there as a fixture in the design. Certainly, it kind of evolved in the way of how the beat was kind of used as a joining point or quote unquote seen to the drum. And I definitely think that that beat was also a hallmark for the brand. One of those things that, you know, it was a great way for the drum to stand out visually. You know, when people saw a drum with a center beat, it's like, Oh, that's a Ludwig, you know. And I think unique design elements in a drum that stand out aesthetically as well are a great way to kind of put your brand stamp on something and for it to be recognizable. So I do really think that one thing to consider in the course of the history of not just the Superphonic or the snare drum, but the brand in general is that reputation is everything. And so for those that know the history of the brand and kind of how it changed hands and ownership throughout the time, one of the things that was always a focus is the integrity of your reputation and reputation is everything. And so you really have to lean on that, not only through through word of mouth, but in through the way people sort of experience your product visually. And so I think there is a lot of just premier sort of signature stamps in the product that went a long way in describing and positioning the integrity of the brand. And so I think the beat is one of them. And I think it's important to highlight that, you know, 1914, the birth of the beat, and it remained a constant in all of the Ludwig snare manufacturing, you know, up until when it sold to Ludwig and Ludwig, or C.G. Kahn and became Ludwig and Ludwig. And then even when WFL or when senior kind of broke off from C.G. Kahn and started WFL, their first initial all metal snare drum designs also incorporated the beat. So going back to reputation, I think the reason why that kind of carried over as a constant is because when people saw that beat, they knew it was a Ludwig drum. And even though during the WFL or they weren't technically, you know, through legal purposes, weren't able to brand the drum as a Ludwig drum, it still had those stamps of who was at the hand or who was behind making that particular drum in the marketplace. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's super important too. It's like, it's funny because Ludwig never really thought about that. You think about the history of like, you know, the bass drum logo that everyone sees on TV and stuff all Ludwig is very visual. I mean, even obviously they did that the whole acrylic drum thing is it's a whole history, but just you see the acrylic drums, you usually think Ludwig, you see the bead, you think supraphonic and you can see that from, you know, 100 feet back in an audience and go, Oh, he's playing a Ludwig supraphonic like we all look and notice. So I don't know if that was on purpose or it was just a happenstance of, you know, this is a visually striking bead that goes around it. It just doubled as a visual cue because people liked it because sometimes if you just see a wooden snare, you don't really know exactly the brand if you're not, you know, an ultra drum nerd and know the lugs and stuff. So that really definitely served double duty and let people know what people are playing without a doubt. And, you know, back then, you obviously didn't have social media and all the ways of sort of getting to product specifics. And, you know, it was more word of mouth back then, right, or through print magazine. And so the more you kind of leaned on putting your stamp in a design, the more that sort of carried over beyond kind of word of mouth or helped word of mouth sort of carry on. It's like, Oh, it's Ludwig drum. It's got this bead and it's got this kind of hoop and so on. So this is one of the fascinating things I think any product designer is always focused on when designing a product. It's like, Okay, this is cool that it's got all of these features and benefits for the customer. But what are one of those things that are a standout that kind of stamped the product as uniquely this brand, you know, whether it's the function design is the aesthetic. And when you can combine that, you know, it goes a long way. And I think there's a lot of premier brands that have done that historic brands that have done that you look at, you know, pair Levi's jeans, there's so many things about that particular denim design that you just talk about, you know, that that stitched a rear pocket. It's like, all you need to see to know it's a Levi's jeans to think that's a quality pair pants, you know, kind of the same thing went into the snare drum design back then. I think. Yeah, exactly. Which that's, I mean, that's the test of a good brand. Okay, so 1914 is where we are, which is it's really cool to kind of think, because you think of supraphonic, you think of, I believe 1964, but like we're earlier than like really what we think of as like the modern drum set. So what's the next big milestone after 1914? One of the interesting things to look at is 1935, and that's when the Imperial Lug is born. So at this point in the company's timeline, it is under the CGCon ownership. And so it's a Ludwig and Ludwig drum. And this is the 25th anniversary of the brand. The Imperial Lug is born. And I don't know too much of the specifics and the actual facts, but there's a lot of things through the course of the history that make me believe that the Imperial Lug was a Ludwig senior specific design. And we'll kind of get to why, you know, there's hints throughout history, but I've never really heard or read any documentation, like hard documentation of the fact that, well, yeah, senior designed that Lug solely. But I think it was something that he admired to a pretty great extent, because it would end up being incorporated when they'd buy the name back, the rights to the name back from CGCon in the 50s. So let's think the bare mind, but yeah, 1935 Imperial Lug is born. And so now you have two pieces in existence that would end up, you know, coming forth in the 1964 model Superphonic. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, that Lug is very iconic. And but, you know, you also think two people maybe didn't document stuff as well back then and say, Oh, he invented this, or it's more just like, just churn it out. And when you're the, the company's named after you, you probably don't really like put your claim, it's kind of assumed that you have a hand in everything, you know, to some degree. Yeah, exactly. And I think this goes back to the point of reputation and putting your iconic stamp on something. So to your point, like you said, when you see an Imperial Lug, you're like, Oh, it's lovely. And you know, it's, it's a big deal to run when you see an Imperial Lug. So now at this point, you see, you know, remnants of reputation in the beat. And now a Lug, you know, so I think those two over time became very well regarded and respected. And so they were very critical in the reputation of the brand and showcasing the quality of the product. And I think, you know, that word of mouth continue to build that, you know, if you're, if you want a great drum, these are the things you look for. And it's the stamp of the brand. So you know, you're, you're playing the right brand at that point. Yeah. And there was a ton of competition. There's a lot of different brands that were around that. I mean, there was even more, I mean, there's a ton of iconic brands now, but as far as like American drum brands, because people weren't importing really as much then, because that's going on a ship and all that stuff. But there was a lot of competition with like, I mean, Slingerland and Leedy and, and Wahlberg and Auge and all these brands, I mean, so you did have to stick out a little bit. And I'm sure that competition really pushes innovation forward. So I guess we're, we can be grateful for the competition now, because we get all this cool stuff. Yeah, 100%. Like even you had your large scale manufacturers, like your Ludwig, your Leedy, your Gretches even, and Slingerland by the 30s. Yeah, they were full scale, but there was also a lot of micro type builders as well that were tinkering and selling their designs to some of the larger companies and things like that. So yeah, really fascinating time in history. And I don't think it's any different than what the drum industry looks like today, as far as drum manufacturing. But a good thing that's to kind of go back to in 1935, so the Imperial Lug is born. And it's only a matter of about a year or two at that point that Senior Leaves, Ludwig and Ludwig, and starts his own company again moves back to Chicago and starts to WFL drum company. And this is where early on, I think the first catalog was 1937 or 1938. And they already got back into manufacturing metal drums, obviously, it kind of started their their metal drum manufacturing in 1911, 1912. And so, you know, along with the wood shells that they were making started making metal drums. In 1937, I believe the model that they called it was the all metal drum. And this was a really fascinating drum that they used at the time, because it had, I don't know what the official name is for this Lug, but it was used on like the swing model snare drum, so which was a wood model. And it had a very, it had a very familiar look in the sense that we had kind of like the raised sides that the Imperial Lug has, and sort of the hard lines and kind of that Art Deco vibe, which again kind of leads me to wonder that there was something with the Imperial Lug design wise that carried over to this new beaded Lug design of the late 1930s or the 1940s. And so I think there was, you know, Ludwig was trying to sort of mirror or kind of emulate some of those design aesthetics in that design approach to the Lug from an aesthetic standpoint. So yeah, they were making these drums, they were still made out of brass, but now at this point, it's a beaded Lug. You have this new kind of quote unquote swing model Lug on it, and their brass shells again. So, and then this is where you start to see the keystone bash come into place as well. And then, you know, that's in production for a number of years until we get to, you know, the challenge with metal supply because of the war and supporting the war efforts and such. So about 1942-ish, the thing is when they made the hard transition to most of the component treatment out of wood. But in 1941, they introduced the Zephyr Lug, which was very short lived. It was an aluminum casing, I believe, and it wasn't all that durable. They used it on beaded drums again. And that was mostly, you know, nickel over brass or straight brass drums. And so then we get to a very big gap in the manufacturing of metal snare drums because of the shortage. And so we move forward to about the 1950 era as like, you know, that's a decade of transition. A lot of people characterize that for the brand. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, that is, it's been talked about so much on the show at the World War II stuff, but it's everyone got kind of shaken up with that. And it makes sense that all metal snare drum might be put aside to make like, you know, things for the biggest war in world history, one of them. But yeah, that's cool. I'm fascinated by the whole WFL, the transition and all that stuff. I'm actually working on an episode with Kurt Ekstrom, who wants to do a WFL specific episode because it's sort of like it's just such a bizarre like, you know, you can't use your name, you can't use you can't use a lot of the stuff that you've invented. We own it. It's just it's sort of a it's just a weird position to be in. You know, so I'm excited to learn more about that. Yeah, so it's really cool. Now, you know, we got up from 1914 to about 1941. And between this time, you know, you see the exterior, you know, shell kind of aesthetic form, you see the lug that's utilized come to fruition, and you see the badge that's utilized for the supra bond to come and come to fruition. So pretty cool. I mean, you really, when you think about that drum, you really got to look even further back. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. Because it's so many little pieces and elements, especially with the Keystone badge and everything and that that bead going back. I mean, you know, it's nuts to think to 1914 up to the 1935 when they're hitting their like 25th anniversary and 35, I think you said, right? God, it's such an old company. And there's so much trial and error along the way. So it's cool when you play super fun, like you're really playing full on Ludwig history every time, you know? Yeah. And it's really cool because it's not, you know, linear history. It's very hybrid in the sense like there's pieces from the WFL history and there's pieces from, you know, the CG Con Air and there's pieces from the Ludwig and Ludwig era when it was obviously Ludwig and Ludwig because of the brothers. But it didn't become just just Ludwig until Ludwig bought it back, right? Because it was under CG Con ownership. It was Ludwig and Ludwig. And then it turned into leading Ludwig by the 1950s. And then when William F. Ludwig Sr. bought back the rights to the name, then that's when it kind of stood up as just Ludwig. Yeah, which is what we all know. But it's kind of funny because now you look back and you just kind of put it all in one Ludwig box. But it's had such a long history of switching around. And I mean, I would imagine though, with all that competition, it was it was it's hard and this is so long ago, it's hard to say it. But I mean, Ludwig, their snare drums, wood or metal had to be kind of industry standard, I would imagine. I think people loved them throughout all of time because the Supraphonic we know is such a recorded and, you know, everyone loves the Supra. But like, I'm assuming before that their snare drums were still very popular, used by obviously, there were other brands that were being used, but they had to before that be very, very well respected. It's not like they they hit on the Supra and people were like, Oh, they got it right this time. 100%. And that goes back to what I said about reputation, like reputation is everything. So not only were they focused on building a reputation in the product that kind of spoke for itself, but as themselves, you know, they put in a back then it was all about grassroots efforts to build your name and build integrity around your name and your brand. So they're very well respected at that time. And so when you look at you know, the successes that that brand has had, a lot of it comes down to the product standing up to what they how they sold it. So yeah, it was a success. And so it was very important for them to very much capture those achievements that were kind of tied and whether it was aesthetic in sort of those brand and like feature hints or in the name of the brand. That's why the name was so important because they like everybody knew it's a lot of it gets a big deal, you know, and they they built that themselves and that goes a long way. So for senior, I don't think it was something that was very easy for him to let go. Like, you know, I worked very hard to build and prop, you know, these components up in the in the drummer market. And, you know, it was a mission for him to really preserve the integrity as much as he could, even if he had to fight, you know, tooth and nail to get it back, even if it meant, you know, you kind of had to defend backwards to, you know, buy back the name, I'm sure that wasn't cheap that at the time, you know, buy back the rights to name or buy back even the tooling for the imperial look, because that's one of the other things that came with sort of that transition period and buying back the name. They did buy back a little bit of tooling for some product and the imperial look was one of them. Wow. Talk about a humbling experience. You're like buying back everything that you built and made. It should be mine. But all right, so we're in the 50s, I think is where we left off post war, kind of getting building things back up into having a metal drum and that not being like, you know, a big deal to like, you know, you're hurting the war effort by doing that. So yeah, take it from there. Yeah. So 1950s is kind of a very confusing decade when you look at it because of the evolution of the brand. So at this point, 1950, I think was the last time Ludwig was cataloged as a Ludwig and Ludwig brand under the CGCon ownership. And then by 1951, it becomes Lady and Ludwig, which I'm sure was like very, very upsetting for senior to see that. Like you just kind of, you know, bastardized the name at that point. Like it's now a mutt of a brand, you know, it's Lady and Ludwig. Like I'm sure that was an eyesore for him to see that name. Because to him, he's like, hey, I worked my entire life to build this name to what it is. And it kind of needs to live as that Ludwig legacy. So I think, you know, that that prompted the urgency to get the name back and figure out how we can do that by any means necessary kind of thing. So I don't think it was easy at all to do that. But by this point, you know, they were, they were, Lady and Ludwig was making metal drums. They were starting to make more of it. They introduced a reliance model in 1951, any utility utility model that also had the imperial lugs, but they were flat shells. So there's a lot of things that they kind of stepped away from that I think were like brand hallmarks that I'm sure didn't resonate all that great for, for senior, but he saw that as an opportunity. He's like, no, they're stepping away from the iconic beaded shell. Now that's becoming my own. They're still using the imperial lugs, you know, yeah, where is there an opportunity to kind of get that back? So yeah, yeah, 1951 is kind of where you see a lot of transitions and separate and some separations kind of start to occur. And then you get to 1958, where they sort of resolve, you know, the purchasing and the rights and getting the rights back to the name. And everything's kind of solidified and finalized so that they can bring the, the super series snare drums, which are kind of the predecessor to the super far. Yeah, that's actually interesting. I'd love to hear more about the actual the super series itself because obviously from the name from supra super, it kind of goes hand in hand. Maybe like, let's just jump in there and like how long the super existed before becoming the supra. And, and let's let's hear more about that. Yeah, no doubt. So the super series was released in 1958. And that was that was a point by then that senior had bought the rights to use the name again and rebranded essentially WFL drums. It's just Ludwig drums. And again, as I said earlier, reputation is everything. You know, he obviously built a reputation under the WFL umbrella, but nothing stood stronger than the Ludwig brand. And as you mentioned, it probably was a very successful brand early on. And yeah, I think if it managed to survive the Great Depression and beyond, like, there was a very strong reputation for the brand and affinity for the brand. I think at that point, which I think still made it very important for a senior to have that reputation that he built. And obviously, you know, the the the rights to his name and to market a drum with his proper name, I think goes a very long way. So this is where you start to see just the the Keystone badge now have Ludwig and that WFL and you see the script logo kind of come into fruition in the badge itself. It is a blue ink badge. This is they call this a transition period. So this is before you sort of see the stamped kind of embossed Keystone badge from the 60s. And in 1958, the Super Series is introduced and it's introduced as a brass model polished the lacquered brass model, and a nickel over brass model as well in two sizes five and six and a half by 14. And so this is where you you kind of see the history we had just went over in the early earlier part of the of the brand. It all kind of comes together here. So yeah, he did show the Super Series Imperial lug and a Keystone badge. So this is where during this transition point, this was also the first time that the Imperial lug was used on a, quote unquote, Ludwig branded drum. And so I do believe that this was a very important feature for senior to bring back because remember during the WFL era, he didn't it was the CG Con Ludwig that was using the Imperial lug not WFL. So I think a part of this this sort of purchase of the rights to the name, there it is known that some tooling and some machinery was bought to help manufacture drums again. But I obviously the tooling and the design of the Imperial lug came with this purchase as well and needed to be on the table to my opinion for their future designs. And I think, you know, when you kind of look at what that lug was on, I mean, there were some really pretty drums, you know, and so I'm sure aesthetically, it was something for him that he felt, you know, we need our hands on this to kind of build a very well regarded and well presented professional level of drums. Yeah, I mean, I just feel like it's like, in the evolution, it just looks more like a modern drum, just the way things were put together and those elements all coming together. And on the Ludwig site and the kind of history it says, originally released as the answer to every drummer's dream, there's something about the Keystone and the Imperial lug and the bead, it's just so like, it's just perfect. It's just right. Yeah, aesthetically, it just has the vibe and has, you know, transcended time, right? I mean, you look at the history of it and it's still one of the coolest looking lugs in the game, like it's just it's just got such a vibe to it. The Art Deco presentation has really stood the test of time, which is really amazing and fascinating to see. So, yeah, you get to the Super Series, you know, that kind of lives on. It's a brass drum. You know, the design of that drum is a little bit different on what the shell design is once you get to the Superphonic. So, we could talk a little bit about that. You look at the Super Series, as I mentioned, it's a brass shell. And unlike some of the earlier brass shells, like 1912, when the first beat drum came out, these are not tack welded at the beat. They're joining it at the butt. They're welded there. And the snare bed on these are stamped into the shell. So, there's a very noticeable hard groove at both the snare throw and the snare butt plate ends of the drum. And then the bearing edge is also flanged twice. They call it tuck. So, once over obviously to form the apex and then once again underneath it. I'm not sure what the sonic principle is of that. I don't think there really is any because it doesn't come into play. But I'm sure it helps the functionality obviously brass is a little bit softer. So, having that extra rigid tuck, I'm sure will kind of help the strength of that edge. And then, you know, that's kind of the makeup of the Super Series. It also has the P83 throw off that comes into play for the first time there on those drums. Can I ask you about the P83, the throw off there for a little bit? Because, I mean, that maybe like, I'm not an expert on throw offs at all, but that really was a very popular and kind of modern throw off. Like, what was that the P83 like compared to other throw offs at the time? I mean, was it a complete game changer? Like they kind of moved everything forward? Or, you know, how did that compare to other throw offs? Yeah, I think the ease, the tension knob, obviously, adjustment made that particular throw off mechanism really user friendly, in that sense. And I think to have that level of adjustability with ease goes a long way. Ludwig was the first company to invent the lever throw off in the early 1900s. So, those early beta drums were also the first to incorporate a lever throw. So, that kind of always stood through a majority of their designs. They had some really unique throw offs, obviously, throughout the decades up until the Super Series. But I think that was just a very, you know, simple design with not so many moving parts like some of the earlier like swing model throw offs that were like double lever and stuff like that. And you kind of had more on the go adjustability to that with the tension knob, as opposed to, you know, getting a ratchet key or some other devices to kind of adjust the tension of the wires. I think it was just a little bit more user friendly of a design. Yeah, kind of seems like after that, it didn't, it changed a lot over time, but that was sort of the prototype of like, this is what we're going to use for the modern throw offs going forward. Totally. Yeah, it was a very simple design and not too overly complicated that allowed and gave you everything you needed, essentially for snare tension adjustments. Yeah, totally. This episode is brought to you by Dream Symbols. Dream Symbols creates B20 and truly hand hammered symbols for today's working drummer. Each handcrafted symbol has a warmth that draws you in at low volumes, yet thunders with beautiful overtones when leaned into and opened up. These symbols come alive with an explosive attack, but have undertones that are warm, rich and dark. Each one has a unique, complex voice that will help you define your personal sound. The symbols speak clearly at all dynamic levels and sit comfortably and easily blend in any mix. Head over to Dream Symbols.com or at Dream Symbols on Instagram and find out what your dream sounds like today. So we moved past Super Series earlier, part of the 60s, 60 to 63, they're still making those drums and this is where you start to see the Ludwig Keystone badge that is got the stamped sort of phrased script logo and such and throughout 61 to 63 is kind of when they started the development of the aluminum shell design and what kind of forced them to kind of look at this a little bit more was the cost of brass. Brass, fairly easy to work with because of how malleable the alloy is compared to others, but there was also a lot more accessible cost-wise and allowed them to produce a really great product at a really great price and obviously material costs always change through time and brass at this point was starting to be a little bit out of the sensible price range, I think for a snare drum at that time. So they started looking at aluminum and started to figure out how they wanted to process this material. I imagine taking into account the kind of finish it needs, the shell construction that it's going to need and all of the specifications that it needs to kind of operate as a Ludwig professional drum. One thing that you can't ignore in the history of Superphonic is the acrylite as well because that was the first aluminum drum, but that came out of all of their need to sort of solve for a much cheaper, much more economically priced metal drum and the aluminum acrylite came out in 1963, so one year prior to the Superphonic. Interesting. And that came out as a budget student model snare drum, right? Came prepackaged with all like the percussion edge hits and stuff like that. So that particular drum though was very different and costless because of what was involved in the amount of work that goes into manufacturing that particular drum. You had less lugs, so less drilling, less material costs that goes into it. That used a beaded twin lug as opposed to the imperial lug. Now the twin lug design, that was another Ludwig proprietary design, but under the WFL era. So after the war, when they go back to making lugs out of metal, that's when they designed the classic lug that went on Tom's and then the twin lug, the bow tie lug, people call it bow tie lug. So yeah, throughout 1961 to 1963, development on the super staking place and they're able to go to the market relatively quick with the acrylite model because it was pretty bare bones compared to the Super. There wasn't the chrome finish on it. I believe the earlier finishes on the acrylite were anodized, so you kind of had that kind of darker gray finish to it. It didn't have the same sheen qualities that a chrome plated drum has and stuff like that. So yeah, eight lug configuration, the same shell type. With the exception of the earlier prototypes, they were constructed a little bit differently, but it was a seamless shell. And so as I mentioned, super series were welded, but at the bottom brass and then earlier beaded shells were welded at the bead. By 1963, and by the time they kind of saw for the acrylite and superfonic, this was at Ludwig's first time using a seamless shell. That's a very important thing to understand that all the snare drums prior were not seamless. This was their first seamless spun all metal shell by 1963. And so that's what really made the drum really unique. I think one of the things that they zeroed in on was the pureness of the sound. There was no overtone distortion and the way the drum resonated. And it was a very, very just pure, crisp tone to the drum. Yeah. Man, that's a lot of stuff happening. 63, 64. I mean, the acrylite and the superfonic, I mean, that is as far as iconic snare drums. That's a good couple of years there for Ludwig. No doubt. Yeah. I mean, good years. Things move so fast. It's crazy to see where they didn't have the modern day machinery to move product as quickly as we can today. They moved things pretty quick back in the day, which is really fascinating. Yeah. We should do an acrylite episode down the road of just purely acrylite, but was that a super successful drum right off the bat? I mean, I'm assuming people obviously were using that really mainly as what it's intended for, like a student model. Yeah. And I think so because of price point as well, like accessibility is everything. So when you can bring something to the market that's priced at a very accessible price point, you can move through quite a bit of product and you can get in the hands of a lot of players. So again, that move away from brass, allow them to do that, to bring a drum in the market that can position at a more appropriate price point for upcoming students to learn even schools to buy things like that. And it's the classic like, okay, you're on an aluminum snare and then you like it and when it's time to upgrade, they're going to buy the drum that they like and that they've played the whole time. They're going to upgrade to the next, you know, Ludwig snare drum because it's the brand recognition and the name recognition and it kind of is a good, you got to have somewhere to start. You can't start at the top of the line. But all right, so supraphonic, I mean, we're there. We made it. We made it 1914. Yeah. 1964. Yeah. Finally make it to the supraphonic. And this is cool because, you know, you see a lot of design elements come together, but you also see, you know, a lot of design first kind of happened from the development of this particular drum. The seamless shell is the first time, you know, that Ludwig starts incorporating the seamless shells mentioned. And this is also when they move away from the stamped snare beds as well. And they're kind of more gradual. They're very hard to tell that there is even a snare bed there. And that was part of, you know, the quote unquote, the secret sauce that Ludwig marketed. It's like this new snare bed made, you know, the the drum that much more responsive and that much more sensitive to the performance. And so those were the really big things to call out in the catalogs, you know, the seamless shell, crisp attack, you know, focus, as well as the sensitivity, you know, that went a very long way. So really, really great, great design that that helped set a benchmark for other future design drums moving forward, because essentially the black beauty of, you know, the late 70s on or started to emulate that same design in the sense of it incorporated that new bed style, right? So that's kind of where we got our benchmarks in our bed design at that point in history as well. Yeah. I mean, all right, so I know you weren't alive in 1964, but like, I mean, public reaction, like, was this instantly like, as far as you know, was this like the end all be all snare drum that everyone was going to use that was super popular, or was it a kind of a progressive growth? You know, from what I can tell, I mean, the Ludwig just had such a great way of marketing throughout time, like that is just one thing they knew how to do, they knew how to promote a product. But not only that, they knew how to make a quality product. So when you have a really great quality product, and you have a really great narrative going with it, and you're able to connect with an audience, you know, nine times out of 10, you're going to have some really great success. And so I think at the time that this drum came out, they were very aggressive in their grassroots efforts of getting this product into retailers, getting this product into schools and so on. And so the fact that they put this very aggressive effort to push this product down to the marketplace, I think helped it really pick up a lot of steam. You know, they also started when the super came out at that time, cataloging a lot of their drum sets, their catalog configured drum sets with this drum. So if you bought any set, like it came with a Supra. So I think that kind of forced that drum into the hands of people as opposed to, you know, outfits in the past came with like wood drums. They decided, let's put the metal drum with it. So I think that put the drum in the hands of more players than if they just left it to a, you know, single purchase option where it's like, oh, if you want a metal snare drum, we offer it here. It's like, no, we offered standalone, but we also offer it in a package. And so I think that sales approach to things, you know, helped really put the drum into a lot of the right hands and instances that kind of allowed it to get the reputation that it did. And when people got their hands on the drum, I mean, I don't want to hurt anything. I like it seamless aluminum shell. Like nobody was doing that back then. You know, they weren't the first ones to do a seamless shell, but it was the first time that they, you know, they did their version of a seamless drum and aluminum is just such a user friendly alloy. You know, brass is a little unforgiving. You know, if you don't know what you're doing tuning wise, like those overtones are very unforgiving. Aluminum is a lot more easier to work with, a lot more focused sound, definitely a lot more forgiving. And it's just such a great midrange tone, you know, tuning wise, you know, it's not, it's not the dark timbre that you get out of brass, a little bit brighter, a little bit poppier, a little bit snappier. And that's a very pleasing tone to the ear just as much as brass is. Yeah, kind of a Swiss army knife of drums where you can like, sort of use it on everything. You can, if you're in the studio, you can have it out and use it on multiple tracks, which is probably why I mean, it's kind of like in that it's the legend of how it's like, you know, it's the most recorded snare in history, or it's one of the most recorded snares in history, which I've learned to not say something is the most of anything. But it is just, it's like someone, I mean, you just grab it and you can leave it on. And, and like you said, user friendly, because just because you're a big famous recording drummer doesn't mean that like you're great at tuning other people have texts a lot, but like, just to be able to like make it sound good fast, and change it a little. The studio I work at, we had one for Ever and I used it on a ton of recordings. And it would just stay on. It would just like, why switch it out? I mean, obviously you'd switch it to something where different sizes were needed. But I don't know, man, I mean, people just want something that's easy and nice. And, and I really like how you were talking about how it came with the drum set. Because you take, I mean, that's like a marketing, it's not even marketing. It's just like, on many levels, it's like it, it's good for consumers. You're buying a drum set, you get a nice snare drum. You don't kind of like just get a drum set with a snare drum and they kind of like, this is cool. It matches. I'm going to set it on the shelf and put on my whatever my preferred snare, but oh no, you got to get you got the good snare. It's very interesting now because most professional kids today don't come packaged with the snare because it's such a personal thing, right? Like you can't, you can't tell a professional drummer what snare drum you should play. You know, they're going to kind of want to find their sounds a very, very specific thing that I think is very unique to a lot of players and part of like, you know, their, their player profile. But the Supra just worked and I think all the right things came together the way that they positioned it at the time. You know, with it being a chrome plated snare drum, it, you know, it was a very universal look. This is a very neutral look. So it fit, it sat well behind a white Marine Pro kit and it sat well behind a Blue Sparkle kit and it made sense with, you know, all of the supporting componentry and a wood shell like lugs and hoops being, you know, chrome, chrome finish, like it just kind of fit, fit the aesthetic, you know, and fit the, the, the, the visual, the visual vibe and, and, and the profile like effortlessly. Oh man. And we're very visual people. That's a big part. I mean, like, of course we want it to sound good, but it has to look good. I mean, it's so important and it's just, it is timeless. I don't know. I mean, so all right, let's talk about the, the response because it overnight it wouldn't become the most recorded snare. And can you address that claim? What is the actual, I mean, am I wrong on that? Or is it number two? I don't even know how someone would really keep track of that. Right, exactly. I think you keep track of it by seeing the players over history that have, that have played it and how much documented work they've done. And when you look at some of the players that are known to have recorded and played on a Superphonic and or Black Beauty, I think that the Superphonic is more documented than the Black Beauty. So I would say the Black Beauty is more second and the Supras is first as the most recorded. But I mean, it's hard to say otherwise because you look at all the work that Hal Blaine recorded on, all the hit, I mean, he was one of the biggest session drummers of the 1960s. And then you look Clyde Stubblefield and then all the work that Clyde Stubblefield, you know, all his work was sampled in hip hop. Totally. So, and then, you know, John Bonham, Bill Ward, Ian Pace, Karen Carpenter, Roy Haynes, like all these heavies. And that's just like speaking like 60s and 70s and get into the 80s. And then you get into into today, like you can't go into studio, not to the Supra. Yeah. I mean, you said you worked at a studio and I mean, so nine times out of 10, a drum was there that that was utilized. So I feel like you go to almost any studio around the world, and you're going to find a Superphonic. And that fact alone is why it's hard to not say that's probably the most recorded drum, but also looking at obviously all the players where we've known it's been documented that they've used it. Oh, that's very fair. And that's kind of a safe way to say it, where like, you know, these guys and girls used it, they recorded a ton. So basically, any time you're listening to the radio, you're going to come across the Superphonic in what within a couple songs, which some capacity, man, I mean, as as a Ludwig guy, that that has to be like a feather and the cap of Ludwig where, you know, it's got to feel good just to know that this drum is part of culture, it's part of history. No doubt. And I think towards, I think at that, at the point, especially like when you get to the 70s and the 80s, it's very known, you know, the the significance of the history and the popularity and being at that point, it's like, it's undeniable. They are Titans and heavy flex for them. You know, they always, they always, I think, marketed their significance and contribution to snare drums, you know, and almost every drummer, whether you play X-Frand or Y-Brand, like, nine times out of ten, you'd have a super collection for sure. All right. So we're in the 60s, Ludwig is obviously, we all know in the 60s, Ludwig was cranking out drums for obvious ringo reasons and all that stuff. Then just moving forward, that's kind of the whole background of it. But moving forward through the decades, 60s and 70s, I'm sure you see them a lot and stop me if I'm missing anything. But I know a lot of things changed in the 80s for drummers and drum sets with with things coming in from overseas and Japanese brands, which are kind of went from the M.I.J., like cheapo stencil world to like legitimate big boy brands. So I don't know what happened in those couple of decades there. So when you look at the Superphonic, not much has really changed in the design of the shell, the makeup of the shell, but a lot evolved in sort of the exterior components and hardware on it. So you look at the earlier examples of the Superphonic, you know, 64 to, let's say about 68, they were using the baseball bat muffler. And then by 68 they transitioned to the tension knob, the circle round muffler. And then in 1970 you get the P85 throw off. It's no longer the P83 throw off. And then the batch changes, you move away from the Keystone era to now the era where Ludwig II, the chief is now president CEO of the brand. And you get to the line logo, you get to the blue olive badge and the thing. But you know, you still have the imperial lugs, you still have the beaded shells, seamless aluminum chrome plated, that never changes. And some of the componentry just kind of evolves over time. At some point, the manufacturing of it moves from being a sponge shell to a deep drawn shell, and then now to a hydro form shell, which is how we make them today. And we don't have all of the muffling componentry the way you see it today, but we do have newer throw offs. We have the PAE8, which is a really great throw off. But all in all, the sound to play off of, I think this is very fitting, sound remains the same, right? Led Zeppelin, John Bonham. But really the sound of the Superphonic for the most part has remained the same because the construction of the shell, which is the core component of that drum has not really changed in spec. It's still the same thickness. It's still the same snare bed style, bearing it style. But the tolerances and the quality are just at a greater level today. That's awesome. And it really just goes to show that that shell construction is really the like heart of it. But the components can change around it because things like throw offs and stuff like that, which people have a lot of opinions about throw offs. That's kind of one of those debated things. But in your Ludwig meetings and stuff like that, and is the Superphonic something that comes up a lot about, I don't know, we should update this, we should update this? Or do you guys kind of leave certain things alone a little bit of like, this is our kind of flagship snare drum? Does that make sense? Is there much thought of developing it further? Right. Yeah, not much about development. And the way we respond to development, and I always like to say this about the brand and kind of characterize a brand as this like Ludwig is the people's brand, right? We don't have the Ludwigs anymore, unfortunately, you know, but they were very much about the people and they built the brand and the products based on satisfying, you know, the needs of the drummer. And so they're very well connected with the drum community, the education community, and made all of these great products to provide solutions for better performance. It's amazing. And so like, that's what we're committed to as well. We're trying not to stray away from that principle and that concept. So we don't try to change things for the sake of changing them, because you feel like we need to change them. We respond to the player market, you know, whether it's the professionals or artists group, or educators, you know, you always got to keep your ears to the ground and include them in the conversations. And we look at the things that are problematic for players and music evolves and players have evolved. So the way they use a product has evolved, you know, they use it with greater intensity, like the P85 in the 70s was the end all be all and then like players weren't playing with the intensity that they played today. And so we've obviously evolved and stepped away from the stamped P85 design to the casted P88 design that's got a really great sort of a wave lock type of device so that your wires don't back out over time and during play, like the P85 tends to do if you're heavier players rarely does that if you're a lighter, lighter sound player, but you know, sort of responding to the obvious to some players that are kind of, you know, it's taking points with the product as, you know, players evolve and music evolve. So there's never been a need to look at that drum and say, we could just always do it better. Yeah, that's kind of something that in every industry, people don't want to happen unless it's done and it's really successful. So it's sort of a big giant gamble. But I yeah, I think everyone's like, don't do it. Yeah, and evolution is appropriate to some extent. And the way that and I think what has changed I mentioned, you know, the manufacturing of the drum from being spun to deep Johnson now hydro form. And that never really changed the the the product by by makeup or the archetype of the drum, what that really helped is how preserved the consistency of the product and the quality of the product. So one after the other, we're just like the last one, you know, the where you're not trying to aim the five different super fun except find the one they're also one because they're all made under the same strict tolerances and principles. And we're also able to manufacture them at a higher rate, like we used to have really, really extensive wait times for these drums, because they're, you know, very difficult to manufacture at a very large scale. And it's still a very in demand drum, you're selling several hundreds, if not thousands of these drums a year. And so to keep up with demand, you need to find, you know, modern technology and manufacturing that could help you help your yield, you're essentially, you know, producing a lot more product at a much more comfortable pace so that you can deliver the product on time, and you maintain the quality that you set forth in the product. And also the costing, you know, sometimes investing in modern day manufacturing and techniques helps, you know, keep your cost either the same or slightly less, you know, you kind of have to weigh a lot of the economic factors into the equation. But yeah, I mean, that's basically, you know, don't fix anything that isn't broken. And if there is something broken, you listen to the people that play and what that is and you respond to it. That's awesome. And so obviously, as we kind of get closer to the end here, people can still, I mean, super phonics are still available everywhere. I mean, they're affordably priced too. I mean, really for the, for the big picture of like, a nice staple drum that like everyone can have, it's really not that ridiculous of a price. I mean, and I haven't looked in a little while, how much does a typical super phonic cost nowadays? It varies around the world. I know you have a global audience. So, so like typically, I think you can find stupas with your retailers just under like the 600 market from that one. Yeah, that is expected. I mean, that's not cheap, obviously, for someone who's like that you could buy a drum set if you're just beginning, but for a pro snare, that you could probably, that's like a desert island snare. That's very well. Yeah, without a doubt, without a doubt. And it's fairly, very fairly priced for the professional category, you know, there's definitely different categories are determined by, you know, pricing and what goes into the manufacturing of the drum. So to price a drum a lot less means that you don't have a lot of the same manufacturing time and investment that it goes to kind of make that type of drum. And I say that you're cutting corners, but you're finding cost savings where it exists. And with professional level drums, like when you really look at the process and the machinery involved to make this stuff in the hours, like that's what it costs. You know, they're not made in just an hour. You know, it takes, it takes a lot to hydroforma shell or the machinery actually to hydro, I mean, these are some Elias machines that do that process that are not cheap. You know, I imagine they're probably half a million to a million dollars of a machine just to make that part for us. Wow. And then you talk about, you know, and again, a lot of it is made in America still. So, you know, the finishing, the shell, everything. And so that comes out a bit of a premium, you know, to support, you know, American labor and such. And the finish, you know, high quality chrome plating. It's not an easy thing to do an easy process to go about either. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. So definitely, I think accurately price for what goes into that drum. Yeah. Yeah. I'd put that in that like mid range level where it's not a $1,500 snare, but it's not a $200 snare where, and also it's kind of like one of those things where if you're going to buy a $600 snare, it's not just like a, like on a whim purchase. It's like really, you own it and you love it and you've saved up a little for it and you're invested in it. So I think it's super cool. And man, what a piece of history. And I'm glad you really know your stuff, dude. I mean, you are the Ludwig man. I mean, obviously there's tons of Ludwig employees who know all their stuff, but you're a great ambassador of the brand yourself. I think people just equate Uli with Ludwig. I mean, obviously. I appreciate that. That means a lot. It's very special to hear that, but really a lot of it comes from a lifelong obsession with the brand and such an affinity for the product. I grew up in Chicago. Yeah. Obviously, Ludwig was founded in Chicago. And so a lot of that hometown pride as a drummer, once I made that connection early on, I was just obsessed. And it's just really cool because the drum community, but especially the Ludwig drum community is really amazing and very welcoming. And so I learned a lot through just being able to converse with cats and collectors and players that love the brand just as much and knew more than I did. And so just years of obsessing and living in that community, which is a very supportive and open and welcoming community has been great. And even conversing with yourself, you're a big part of this community. So I appreciate that. Yeah. And you know, something funny about Ludwig that I see a lot is I see it with all kinds of drum guys and girls, but like Ludwig guys, it'll be like, on Facebook, they'll be posting pictures with their families and they'll be on a date with their wife, and they're wearing a Ludwig t-shirt or a semi-formal event. It'll be like, they'll still be wearing a Ludwig t-shirt. And it's just like, I love that man. I mean, there is some diehard, passionate thing. It's a special brand. It's special to a lot of people and a lot of folks. And that's what kind of makes doing what we do even today as a company. Very special is how much it's admired. And even new players are starting to experience the brand and to your point, because of family members, dads, moms, aunts, uncles, brothers, sisters, but have you. So it's really cool to continue to see so much appreciation from just a long generation of players, whether you're an up-and-coming player, aspiring player, elementary, kinder age to today's, you know. Yeah. I mean, I've got a little Ludwig accent set for my two-year-old that he plays all the time. And it's like, I love all the brands, but I'm glad I always wanted one of those little accent kits as a kid. So I'm glad he could get it and play it. So awesome, Uli. Well, everyone listening, Uli's going to be kind enough to stick around and do a quick bonus episode, where we're going to talk about kind of, I asked him if there's any anomaly kind of drums of suprafonics. Like I almost equate, it's like the stamp where the plane is upside down and it's worth like millions of dollars. So with suprafonics, if there's anything that like weirdo drums that slipped out of the factory. And he said, yes. So we'll talk about that in the bonus episode. Go to drumhistorypodcast.com. There's a Patreon link. Click that and you can hear Uli's bonus episode and a bunch of others. But awesome. Uli, is there anything you want to like promote of your own while we're here at the end, stuff you're working on or just Ludwig in general, new stuff coming up kind of to wrap up? Yeah, definitely. Since we're on the topic of snare drums, Ludwig has just launched the Universal Series snare drums, which is new great snare drum line that is universally priced, you know, you talk about price points. And this is a very attractive price point that we're able to hit and bring some really quality drums to the table. We have some black, black nickel over brass models and assortment of different woods. So we did, there's a ton of videos on YouTube on social. So definitely subscribe to our YouTube, check out the website of this Universal Series. We're excited about that release. And this year, it's the 50th anniversary of this alike drums. We'll be celebrating that all year. Awesome. Big deal. I loved your episode where you touch on acrylic drums. And we all know how special acrylic drums are, you know, the totally breathtaking looks and such a unique tone. But yeah, we set out with a limited edition series of different pattern colors as well as snare drum. So another kind of cool snare drum spotlight for us is in the this like 50th assortment product assortment. Cool. And yeah, if if you want to follow any of my personal drum shenanigans, check out my Instagram site. I like to post about drum restorations and drums I collect and all that good stuff. So yeah, that's awesome. And that's are you still Damon drums, D-A-M-E-N. Yeah, Instagram at Damon drums and Damon drums. I see comes from the Damon factory, the little Ludwig Damon factory in Chicago. Yep. Cool. Man, Ludwig is never sitting still and just letting things kind of be stagnant. You guys are always moving forward and designing new stuff. So again, thank you to Pete Done. Hope I'm pronouncing that right, D-O-A-N. And then Nate Testa a while ago suggested this. So thanks to Nate. And Uli, thank you for taking the time to be here with me today. We've had some technical difficulties, but I think we should we'll wrap up before the computers explode and move forward. So Uli, thank you for being here. Bar always a pleasure, a super honor to be a returning guest on your podcast. I appreciate it. Thank you. If you like this podcast, find me on social media at drum history and please share, rate and leave a review. And let me know topics that you would like to learn about in the future. Until next time, keep on learning.