 Oh, are we here? Welcome to what the F is going on in Latin America and the Caribbean, CodePink's weekly YouTube program of hot news out of the region. In partnership with Friends of Latin America, Massachusetts Peace Action and Task Force on the Americas, we broadcast generally every Wednesday for 30 p.m. Pacific, 730 p.m. Easter on CodePink YouTube Live. You can also find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and as of today, you can find us on our own Telegram channel. So today's episode, everyone, is Columbia's presidential elections moved to a second round. And I'm really, really excited and happy for all of you to meet Raul Berbano. He is the Executive Director of Common Frontiers, which is based in Toronto. And he was the trip leader of the delegation to Columbia that I was supposed to join last week. And we all talked about why I was not able to join that delegation last week. So this week, we can get to meet the trip leader and we're gonna talk a little bit about what the delegation saw and experienced and then get into some specifics of the 29th, Sunday, the 29th election day, and then what possibilities lie ahead for the second round elections on June 19th. So before I have you meet Raul, I wanna just give all of you a quick summary of what happened on Sunday. So two anti-establishment candidates, Gustavo Petro, a centrist, I think what a lot of us would call centrist in Columbia, he's referred to as a leftist. I think Raul would agree he's anything, one step to the left of center is leftist in Columbia right now with the current political context. So he being a centrist for most of us and Rodolfo Hernandez, a right-wing populist. The two of them captured the two top spots in Columbia's presidential election on May 29th, delivering a stunning blow to Columbia's dominant conservative political class. The two men will compete in a runoff election on June 19th that is shaping up to be one of the most consequential in the country's history. At stake is the country's future economic vision, the restoration of democratic integrity and the livelihood of millions of people pushed into poverty during the pandemic, particularly women and children. And Raul, that's something I'd really like us to address, that those two, the women and children. With more than 99% of the ballots counted on Sunday evening, Petro received more than 40% of the vote while Mr. Hernandez received just over 28%. Hernandez beat by more than four percentage points the conservative establishment candidate, Federico Gutierrez, who had been polling in second place until the 29th. So Hernandez's unexpected second place victory perhaps shows a nation hungry to elect anyone who was not represented by the country's mainstream conservative leaders. And if Gustavo Petro ultimately wins in the second round on the 19th of June, it would mark a watershed moment for one of the most politically conservative societies in Latin America. So with that, I'd like all of you to meet Raul Berbano, my friend and longtime solidarity partner, Venezuela specifically, now Columbia Honduras as well. So welcome Raul. Raul, by the way, is talking to us from Bogota this evening everyone. So he is just wrapping up things for the delegation. So thank you so much for joining us. No, thank you for having me, Federico. It's a pleasure. As I said, I always watch the show. You always have excellent guests and I learn a lot. Well, you're one of them. Here you are. So Raul, why don't you tell us a little bit, tell us a little bit about common frontiers so that our guests know what you've done for years and I just wanna share your work with everyone because it's very, it's really important and very impressive what your organization does. Sure. So I'm the program director at Common Frontiers which is a national network that brings together labor, ecumenical organizations, human rights organizations that do work specifically in solidarity with Latin America. It was born about 20-some odd years ago against the fight against the NAFTA, version one, built the tri-national groups, Canada, US, Mexico, and tried to do some analysis around the impact of that. And so over the years, we've been focusing on human rights, labor rights, and of course democracy over the last little while in terms of how important that is in the region. So the labor movement plays a strong role within common frontiers and we're very happy to have their support. Can you hear me okay? Hold on a second. Yeah, go ahead, I'm sorry. I think my mic came loose. Okay. And so, I mean, maybe I'll just start in terms of, common frontiers has been doing a lot of work around Columbia for probably about a decade along with the labor movement and the civil society in Columbia. And so over during the electoral process, over the last few six months, whether it's the legislative elections or the presidential elections, Colombians live in abroad, especially in Canada have been mobilizing quite strongly to organize, to ensure and to make sure that the electoral process, at least in Canada, where many of us live is fair, transparent. So that kind of inspired some of us and we heated the call of civil society in Latin America to support the democratic process in Columbia. So we organized the delegation and I would be remiss if I didn't just mention, we wouldn't be able to have done the delegation without the sponsorship and financial support of the Public Service Alliance of Canada, which is the social justice fund, the steel workers, the humanity fund, the British Columbia Teachers Federation, the British Columbia General Employees Union, the Canadian postal workers and the coalition of black trade unionists in Canada, they all really helped us to get things done in Columbia. So it was a coalition, a beautiful coalition of solidarity and labor. Absolutely, yes, it was wonderful. So let's, so this is one of the reasons why I so wanted to travel with you and join your delegation and did and just couldn't ultimately get into the country. So let's talk about the itinerary, what all of you saw and did, who you met with in the run-up to the election and how that set the stage for election day? Sure, so the main cities that we visited, we were in Bogota, Cali and in Winneventura and Winneventura is where we were observing the vote. Our goal was really to come to Columbia and hear, listen and learn from Colombian civil society around the situation that's taking place from an electoral process. Obviously, when you're going for the electoral process, it's important to have a transparent, efficient electoral process, the day of, but it's also really important to understand the context in which elections are taking place. And that's what we had a lot of concern based on, the work that we've been doing in Columbia and what we've heard from partners in terms of the egregious human rights situation, the economic crisis, corruption and punitive, the criminalization of labor leaders, indigenous communities, environmental organizers. So all that obviously culminated in us coming down to Columbia. So one of the things we did, for example, while we were in Bogota, we organized a forum bringing together indigenous organizations, representatives like Onique, labor organizations from USO, the CUTE, human rights organizations, campesino organizations and other electoral observers from MOI, which was the, I guess, the Colombian Electoral Observer Coalition, members from the European Parliament, folks from other electoral observer missions, just a dialogue to share, to hear what we've all been kind of seen. And again, for us, it was really important to take in a lot of what we heard. And unfortunately, a lot of what we heard was very similar to what we've been hearing for a while, which is, there's a lot of intimidation. There's a lot of fear. The electoral process has made the situation worse. The situation in Columbia has been critical for a long time. It's not unique, but the electoral process obviously sort of has augmented the criminalization of activists, violence, threats. And so people were sharing that with us and saying that anything they could do to guard the vote, to safeguard the democracy, that was gonna be their focus for the next little while. So really that was our goal is really to hear, to listen and get a sense of what the environment was in Columbia around the elections. Well, I can tell the audience that the criminalization of activists is a for real thing in and outside of the country. I would argue there's a pretty targeted program to negate, impede international solidarity with activists inside Columbia. I think, it's inside and outside as, and it's really terrible inside. And so you, I don't know, somebody was telling me, maybe it was last week we were talking how, the number of deaths so far this year, like 26, that's maybe even higher than that of activists, environmental activists, indigenous land rights activation. Yeah, every all of it, yeah. Yeah, according to in the past, which is a very prestigious human rights organization in Columbia, I think, I mean, the last numbers I've seen are 44 massacres in 2002. We're talking about 158 victims. I think there were 79 social leaders that have been assassinated just this year alone. 25 ex-combatants. So this is the situation which is, it's a human rights crisis obviously in Columbia, but if there's also, every time, every chance I get, I mentioned that Columbia is going through many crises, economic, political, social, and you see it just walking down the street, walking down downtown Bogota, you see the level of poverty, the level of inequality, in a sense, the level of desperation of Colombians in terms of the situation in which they're living in Columbia, in my meetings with many folks, many people approach being confident, wanting advice, support, in terms of how they can get out of the country, because really people are concerned for their lives and for everything they're doing here, especially people who are organizing politically and even just social leaders, right? There's a lot of criminalization of community leaders. We met, for example, with Erika Prieto. She's a Congreso de los Pueblos. She's a community organizer with Congreso de los Pueblos and just her organizing within communities made her a target and she was criminalized by the judicial system in Columbia, but what was so concerning about her story was that a lot of the evidence that was placed against her had been doctored, whether it's pictures and finally she was released, but of course it's destroyed her whole life. It's made her life very difficult in terms of fear, her family's life. So that's, we wanted to hear directly from victims because obviously we hear numbers, which are, they're scary in terms of numbers, but when you hear directly from victims and they're telling you the story and how the state in some cases has worked to criminalize them, the judicial system doesn't work correctly. It is really scary and I felt quite, it was very difficult to hear a lot of the testimony and you feel a bit interesting because really there isn't much that you can do while you're there. That's true and for our audience, you're Colombian yourself. So there was not, you weren't exactly traveling last week in a very secure personal. So your personal security was at threat as well. So even more bigger gold star for you taking everyone. So it is very, very hard to listen to the personal testimony to take that, those, that witnessing because it really does put a face on the violence and not just a face, but a person's life and their family and their friends and the whole, like you said, this woman and her whole life was ruined by falsified documents, falsified evidence against her, your whole life is ruined. She's still alive, which a lot of people cannot say, unfortunately, but it is, it's hard. I give all of you a lot of credit for spending time and studying all of it because it's hard for the outside world to really fathom how extensive it is. How extensive, every aspect of society. Every aspect of society. One of the things I'm, this and I'm sure. I don't want to leave folks with such a gloomy picture although it is very difficult in my meetings with everybody and just talking to people and hearing there is a sense of hope though, you know, right? These elections have brought a sense of hope. And there was, for a while I couldn't understand I was a bit confused because, you know, most of the people I talked to expressed, you know, concern with the electoral process, concern that, you know, that could be fraud but at the same time they had hope. And that was like, well, you know, if you feel that they might, you know, steal the elections how can you be hopeful? And then somebody finally explained it to me quite clearly and they said, you know, my heart has hope and I believe we're gonna win. My head tells me, you know, there may be some problems, you know, there might be some fraud. So there's sort of that economy between the heart and the mind, you know, the intellect but clearly, Colombians at this point are, there's, you know, it's a tipping point, right? There's a crossroads and there is a lot of hope. And I guess the challenge is gonna be is the change will come, irrelevant of which of the candidates is elected, as you mentioned, they're both sort of the, you know, the non-official candidates, they're independents, they have a different trajectory from the status quo, one more from the left and one more from the, you know, center right. And so in the end, there is going to be change. The question is just, what does that change gonna look like and whether it's gonna meet the needs of the majority of Colombians who are so desperately in need. And, you know, the fear is if it doesn't, that's where like, what will happen in Colombia? Well, so now there's, I've got this whole list of things I wanna ask you now, your observations are so wonderful. So you mentioned the, you know, the, you know, the choca, the frock is between the heart and the head with the voters. People went and voted. And in many communities, it really was a matter of life and death for a lot of people in, particularly in rural communities to go vote. But people voted despite the, you know, the physical and political paradigm they're living in. And that is so wonderful, so wonderful. To just take that power that, you know, one of the few things that constitutionally remains in place for people and went and did something with it, you know? And maybe, you know, the real, what we would argue, you know, as the real change agent for the country didn't win the first round, but most, but decidedly won, you know, didn't win outright the first round, but decidedly did win. I mean, 40% to 28% was, you know, that's a huge statement. So one of the things that is really attractive to people about Gustavo Petro and Francia Marquez who make up the Pacto Historico is that they have a different economic vision and this breaking or alleviating this neoliberal paradigm that Colombians have been living in a really harsh neoliberal paradigm, which has dramatically affected the youth in the country. I mean, no access to education, no healthcare, no infrastructure, no jobs, no, I mean, really no nothing, which is in big part what ignited the National Paro last year. And so let's talk a little bit about neoliberalism and what a potential Petro presidency could look like while we're talking about hope and positive, let's stay with it, let's stay with that. You know, many folks in the campaign in the back that we talked to, you know, they made it clear and I think people were quite focused that they consider this would be, if they would win, it would be a transitional government because they're under no illusion that they will be able to transform the country in four years and the hope for many people is that if only, you know, if the Pacto can do a small portion of what it professes that it will do, it would have a humongous impact. For example, you know, the proposed tax increase on the 4,000 wealthiest Colombians, right? The plan to halt new oil exploration in an effort to wean the country away from sort of the extractive industry and move to a more ecological, environmentally, sustainable economy, pension reform, agrarian reform, those things, if you could do, you know, half of those, it would have a significant impact on Colombians, especially Colombians, obviously, in the lower stratus and, you know, women, single mothers, youth, as you mentioned, those are key things that I think, and that's why I've seen a lot of young people at the events, at the rallies, at the polling stations. Although I must admit, I was surprised that there were as many people out as I had expected. So I participated in elections in other countries, for example, in Venezuela, just to compare, and in Venezuela, people are lined up way before the proposal, but there's huge queues in Colombia, I didn't see that, and I really expected a lot more. And when we voted, when we visited different voting sites in Buena Ventura, we would ask, you know, the folks who are in charge of the table, not the tables, but the voting centers, they'd come out and talk to us, and they would tell us, you know, the youth haven't come out yet, it was around, you know, 11 o'clock, the youth haven't come out yet, and they're like, but don't worry though, they usually come out later, right? They sleep in a little bit, they come out a little bit later. Yeah, that last hour. Yeah, but it didn't, you know, that I think is a bit of a challenge, it didn't materialize, and I do think there might have been a complacency that everybody just assumed we're gonna win this, so there's no, you know, we don't need to worry. And so I think that is gonna be a challenge for Petro and Francia Marquez in terms of ensuring that people get out early to vote. I mean, the Colombian electoral process, I mean, in my opinion, isn't the strongest, for example, you know, they open eight to four, and it doesn't get people off at enough time to vote, especially if people are coming out from the rural areas, right? They have to travel a distance. So, you know, one of our recommendations, for example, was that it should, you know, voting centers should be open at least at 8 p.m. And people in the lineup, when the voting center closes, should be allowed to continue to vote if they're in the lineup. In Colombia, only if they have your ID and you're about to vote are the only people they can vote. So there could be a lot of people in the lineup, but they wouldn't be able to vote, which, you know, it's not a good sign for a democracy when it's not, you know, trying to bring in as much of the voting population as possible. Well, this is, you know, this is interesting. And I had asked a number of people, maybe I even asked, you know, you and your delegation on Sunday, that the polls close at four. And in many countries, and you and I have observed elections, you know, multiple countries throughout Latin America and the Caribbean. If you're in line, whether the poll closes at three or five or nine p.m., whatever, if you're in line before the polling center closes, you can vote. You cannot get in line at the close. But if you are already in line, the poll stays open until everybody in the line has voted. And so in Colombia, that is not the case. And boy, that may very well- That's not good. Yeah, four o'clock on a Sunday is not very- Unless they have your ID. Unless you've submitted your ID, which would be like the next voter, and that's the only person that has the right to vote. So that is a challenge. Wow, that's- You know, although I would have to say, I don't think that was an issue, at least from what I witnessed in Guenaventura, maybe another place that was different, because there weren't huge lineups. As I mentioned, it was definitely flowing and people were going in and out and people were able to access the voting centers that we were at. People came out and of course, always complained about irregularities, lack of castigos at the table, you know, voter identification that wasn't- They're supposed to vote here, but they're supposed to vote somewhere else. So I think those are regular irregularities that you hear in polling stations, but we just heard a lot from other people when we had met around a lot of the issues that people fear. Like for example, we met with some communities that had recently been displaced in Guenaventura and obviously, displaced communities can't go back to their place to vote, right, for fear of violence and repercussions. So those kind of issues where communities where displaced can't really vote, right? You know, I don't think there's enough being done to support that or to, you know, make it easier for them to participate in the electoral process. And I think in some cases, it probably benefits the status quo for them not to vote. No, exactly. Yeah. How? I'm sorry. Did I lose you? No, go ahead. Okay, so let's talk about Guenaventura because the delegation was specifically asked by the local community that you observe there. And why was that? What was the request? Well, I mean, I think, you know, that area of Guenaventura, there's a lot of poverty. This is on the coast, the Caribbean coast. Yeah, absolutely. For our audience. And so, you know, working with Afro-Columbian communities from the communities that organized the Pato, I think it was in 2016, you know, they really wanted support and ensure that international observers were there. So we weren't the only ones there. I think there were US observers who were there. There were folks from Cataluna, Catalonia, they were there as well observing the election. So we kind of divided up amongst ourselves in terms of supporting the electoral vote. So there is a lot of concern in that area of vote buying, of, you know, intimidation. And that's one of the main reasons why we chose to go there on, you know, the request of the Afro-Columbian communities who we've been working with for a while. Wow, so one of the, oh gosh, that I have wanted to ask about the voting proper, but let's go back to that in a minute. One of the things we talked about a few minutes ago should there be a facto historical win in this, it would be a transitional government. So you're looking at a government that would basically spend four years dismantling a system that has failed the majority of society. And then you would need successive administrations to start gradually going forward. I think someone had mentioned it would take conceivably 14 years to undo and then for a full transition. And I think probably, I think that was a full transition to a more socialized economy and state. But you would see, I think, as you mentioned, just beginning a dismantling of the existing would be beneficial. I mean, that would be an immediate benefit. I would think it's... Absolutely, I mean, I know Petro has stated or the campaign has stated that they would declare a state of emergency, like economic emergency to address the widespread hunger that the country is experiencing, lack of access to food. So, as you mentioned from the beginning, the campaign is not a radical left campaign. They're not looking to nationalize or do it. They're not looking to dismantle the capitalist system. However, it's important to note that the reality, it would really be beneficial to Colombian civil society if things, well, not as simple as, but as important as a pension for people, by access to education, right? Those things, we can't discount them, although sometimes in the North, we get sort of, oh, wish it could have been challenging capital much more. It's important that those do have ramifications for poor people in Colombia. I mean, and even from a foreign policy perspective, I mean, Petro has mentioned that he would definitely... He's not a big supporter of Venezuela, but he would reestablish economic relations with Venezuela because obviously the border economic necessity there has been. So even just simple things like that, in my opinion, would make a big difference internally and probably geopolitically in terms of a progressive policies. It kind of reminds me a little bit of sort of Lula policies, right? In Brazil, like Bolsa de la Familia in Canada, we would see them as more sort of social welfare policies of helping the poor kind of alleviate the immediate needs. And then you can move on to start looking at more of the structural things, which might be in future governments. But it's an evolutionary thing and you don't just... I mean, you don't just change the form of economy overnight in any country. I mean, I guess unless you have something, you know, a hot revolution, but even then, you still... It is still evolutionary. And so did I lose you? No, not at all. Okay, I thought my screen froze. Sorry, I thought my Wi-Fi... Yeah, you froze a little bit, but that's fine. Okay. So can we talk a little bit specifically about what you saw on election day? Like just for our audience, like what the technical voting process is for people who have observed elections before, how, you know, when someone arrives at a poll or even before, how they register and just the whole technical process. You know, you and I have been in that as well in numerous times and, you know, it's so clean and so efficient and it's almost impossible to believe that the United States doesn't want to revel here. I mean, so what is it like in Columbia since I didn't get to see it? Absolutely. You know, and I should clarify, so we weren't an official electoral observers in a state sanctioned. So we didn't enter any of the voting centers per se. Our work was really outside, talking to people, interviewing people, you know, hearing, you know, documenting, you know, any kind of irregularities that people would share with us. So, you know, we, you know, the voting process from what I understand in Columbia, as I said, I wasn't inside any of the voting centers is pretty standard in terms of, you know, you go in and there is a, like I guess a biometric to ensure that you're supposed to be at what table you're supposed to be at, and then you present your card, your vote, and then you do the ink on your finger. So it's kind of pretty standard from that perspective. So little fraud unless there's something actually technical manipulation of the voting machines themselves, which I've seen some social media comments about that the voting machines, the tallying, the national tallying when everything goes from the polling center, you know, gets the data gets sent that the national count was capped at 40% for Petro and Francia Marquez. Have you heard that? I mean, I've seen that on social media in quite a few places, interesting places actually left and right places. Yeah, I think the same as you. I mean, I've seen, I've heard it on social media. I mean, as you, as I mentioned, we weren't witness to anything like that. Most of our work was really just documented and hearing irregularities from folks. But I mean, as I'm sure you know, and probably most of your least listeners who have been following Columbia know quite well that, you know, there were, there was about half a million votes for, for the petro campaign, you know, there were just, you know, there were uncovered in the legislative election. So there is clearly issues with the electoral process, the software, you know, many, many different political parties that we met with, including both right and right and left, express concerns in terms of the inability to audit the software and make sure that it wasn't being utilized in any nefarious way. So there has been a lot of, you know, comments and issues and people have made this clear. We met with folks in the labor movement. And it's funny because when you hear, when you hear the same thing over and over in different places, you start to wonder, this is true. And they mentioned to us that, you know, companies are forcing employees to work, to vote a certain way. And, you know, members of the CUDE, for example, so they were going to send me a letter that they were, that they had access to from, you know, I guess one of their employees where, you know, it's made pretty clear who they, who employees have to vote or somehow influencing that vote, right? So there's clear that there is a lot of, you know, manipulation that's going on, whether people can, you know, actually access the voting centers. As you probably aware, there was a, you know, a sort of paramilitary part of not too long ago in the northern part of the country, basically, you know, they could, you know, people are afraid in many places to go and vote. So those are the ways, I think, often that, you know, fraud takes place, people don't have access to it, displace people, and then there is sort of, you know, the more of the detective stuff that happens during the electoral process. Let's talk about the displaced people quickly. Are they, and specifically in, you know, around Buena Ventura, there were communities displaced or they displaced by the government? Are they displaced by illegal drug trafficking? Do they choose to leave because it's too violent? Are they physically pushed off the land by state or illegal? Sure. All of the above. Yeah. I think, you know, most of the above absolutely is correct. Paramilitaries, you know, drug trafficking, you know, illegal armed groups across the country have been displaced. I mean, it's not new, unfortunately. Columbia has, you know, some of the highest displaced people internally in the world. So people are continuously displaced and, you know, they have nowhere to go, right? So they're moving from city to city. They're trying to survive, living sort of in the margins of society. They don't have any, there's no support, you know, very little support from the government, right? So it is a huge challenge for communities. And I think that would have a significant impact, you know, displaced people don't really have the ability to participate in the electoral process. And I think that is something that should be highly concerning to the Colombian government and to all political sort of entities in Columbia. Well, you basically become like a non-person at that point. You're a non-citizen. You have no, you're not on any sort of state registry, you know, no permanent address, no place to, you know, to file to vote. You have no. Well, technically, you're supposed to go vote in the city, you're registered in, but you can't go back to that city. You've been displaced, right? So that's, that's, that's a huge issue. And I mean, we met with a community in Guenaventura who talked about the issue. And I mean, it's common. It's not uncommon. It wasn't unique. And I think that's, that definitely, I think has a humongous impact. And it's probably one of the reasons why, you know, Colombian civil, I mean, it's one of the most unequal societies, as I mentioned, and I think this is one of the reasons why people are desperate need for change, right? Because the situation in Columbia just, it just continuously with the pandemic, the inequality, the poverty just continues to get worse. And it seems that unfortunately, you know, Canadian foreign policy and US foreign policy continue to continue to support that type of politics in Columbia. And, you know, there's going to be a big change in, in the upcoming election. So it's important that, you know, the Canadian government and the US government kind of rethink kind of their, the way they're, you know, supporting civil society in Columbia and, you know, those kind of organizations. So I think there needs to be sort of a rethink it in general about Columbia and its place in Latin America and the role instead of it being a destabilizing type of a force in the region. It needs to be a force for good and for, you know, bringing Latin America together, right? Because it really does have that ability to do that. So you, so as you're talking about US and Canadian North American foreign policy needing to change, I mean, we are seeing any of us who have spent any amount of time, you know, on the ground in Latin America I mean, there is a unity and a movement economically, politically, and I would say a unity out of humanitarian crisis with the pandemic that has emerged and is growing. And we see this with the pushback to, you know, Biden's summit of the Americas next week that's supposedly supposed to take all of that, this unity. And so Columbia is a NATO global partner, NATO, it's on the Caribbean. It's not on the North American, North Atlantic, but it's a NATO global partner. And next door to the east is Venezuela who's a very strong, who is very strongly allied with Russia. Did you see here experience anything, even just you personally, because it is your home country, this kind of is a similar, it is the same situation we're seeing play out in Europe. It's, you know, where you have, you know, Russia against US, NATO, right, just across the Caribbean. It's the same thing, same paradigm. Yeah, absolutely. You know, Columbia has for decades played a destabilizing role, basically been the United States laptop unfortunately, through militarization in the region, training, you know, other, other sort of the various organizations, you know, kind of exporting, they call it the Columbia, the Colombianization of, you know, militarization in other countries. So I do think that, you know, the cop, the broader geopolitical conflict that's taken place with Russia and Ukraine is definitely going to have an impact in Columbia, because obviously this has kind of been playing out to some extent in Latin America for a while, because Russian investment, Chinese investment has to some extent displaced US and Canadian investment in the region. And that has been sort of some of the reasons why the United States and Canada have worked quite diligently from a government perspective to, you know, marginalized countries like Venezuela, Bolivia, Nicaragua, any country that really doesn't toe, you know, the line, you know, all of a sudden becomes an egregious human rights violator or an anti-democratic country. So it's definitely, you know, been happening in Latin America. And the fear is just what it can grow to and hopefully, you know, it doesn't grow to any kind of military conflict. But, you know, the NATO, Columbia's, you know, status in NATO's and observer nation is highly concerning. It's something that, you know, Colombian civil society with, you know, most, by and large, most would be against, you know, Columbia participating in such a military alliance is unnecessary. Well, it's fascinating to me that I think it was Thursday even when I heard President Fernandez in Argentina. But I forget what event he was at, a state official state event where he flat out said, you know, have to lift the accused six decades of embargo against or block eat against Cuba. And then he did mention, you know, five plus years of economic warfare against Venezuela simply because they have diplomatic differences. I mean, he's never been that overt, particularly Cuba, yes, but Venezuela not always. He's not always that strong about U.S. policy towards Venezuela. He was quite overt on Thursday. And so it's really, it's fascinating to watch how this is all unfolding. And it's fascinating to me that he said that the Thursday before the Colombian presidential elections, because the Argentines kind of stayed quiet, although there were quite a few of them as election observers Sunday, the 29th, but I thought that was for their government. That was a very strong statement just days before the elections. And you can see how the rest of the hemisphere with the exception of North America, Columbia, Honduras has changed or is in the process of changing. You know, everybody's kind of trying to preserve the peace, perhaps and not let things get, you know, exacerbated between Colombia and Venezuela as we're watching that same scenario play out in Europe. It's very, yeah. I don't think we talk about that enough. I don't think enough of us in North America really understand what that border really is between Colombia and Venezuela. Absolutely. And as you mentioned, I mean, it has clear implications Latin America, because I mean, we hear, you know, regularly from, you know, state department that Russia, China are meddling in, you know, I heard in Colombia in these Colombian elections, they're the ones who kind of, you know, control the Venezuelan elections. So there, you know, that sort of theme of like, you know, we need to confront obviously Russia and Ukraine and in Europe. And we also need to confront them wherever we can economically, politically. And now we're seeing militarily obviously it's, you know, scary and especially with a country like Colombia where it's, you know, with all the U.S. military bases and all the military equipment that Colombia does have. I mean, it is a country that can, you know, destabilize it, which has for a while the region, right? We saw it with, you know, the Venezuelan climate border where, you know, there was, you know, there's skirmishes, there's always, you know, the Colombians, you know, the Colombian government is always trying to undermine the Venezuelan government that, you know, at any point things could have, I think it, but in my opinion, if it wasn't for the Venezuelan government, Maduro, there probably could have been, you know, a bit of conflict between two countries militarily. I agree with you. Yeah. I think they've shown, they've taken the high road diplomatically for a very long time for many, many years now. Yeah. Because it did feel like Colombia was trying to instigate something, right? More than once. Yeah. For the U.S. Colombia, yeah, for sure. So let me just ask you two things real quick before I let you go. One, you voted, you voted in the consulate in Toronto, yes? No, I couldn't because I was in Colombia, so I couldn't vote. Oh, okay. I missed my vote, but I did hear, you know, so the interesting part is when we were in Bogotá in one meeting, they said that, you know, the voting abroad is very regular and it probably could use, they said to us, international observers. And it's ironic because when we, when I heard the voting taking place in, for example, Quebec, there are some reports of irregularities. Like I know one person specifically who went to vote, but it said, well, you know, you know, we don't have you on the list. And he said, well, I voted in the last presidential elections. They're like, well, you have to prove that you voted in those elections. And there was another person in Montreal who went to vote, who was registered in Montreal or Quebec. And they said, sorry, you're really registered in Ontario, so you can't, you can't vote. So these type of irregularities, which I'm sure is not uncommon in other parts, you know, the exterior is really a problem. And what we met with different political parties, they said, you know, the voting and exterior is, is susceptible to manipulation is susceptible to the influence of, you know, the powers to be in those countries and it needs to be safeguarded. So I think that is one of the reasons why Colombian civil society and the diaspora abroad has been really incredible and mobilizing to observe, to protect, to make sure that they're at the tables. And I think that is really the only way that, you know, we can ensure that the elections as a whole and even in Colombia is with massive participation in terms of safeguarding the vote of being vigilant because, you know, my analysis is that the petrol and his campaign has to win by a large margin in order to have, you know, legitimacy, unfortunately, because if it is very close, you know, I fear that, you know, the opposition or whomever may not accept the results. There'll be claims of fraud because everybody's throwing fraud around on a regular basis. And they could just create a lot more tensions. Well, this is what we saw. That was what we saw in Honduras in November. Of 2021. And that was the Partido Libre and their coalition. That was the whole objective was to have massive voter turnout and to win by a large percentage. And unfortunately, I think this is true for center left left throughout the hemisphere right now is that there has to be such a large win that it cannot be contested domestically or internationally. And, and that does, it does force the creation of political coalitions that don't, you know, that can be somewhat internally, you know, contentious going forward to run, you know, to govern a country, but so important to have that big win so that it's uncontested. Yeah. And that's also, I mean, that's also that's why it's very important with, you know, sort of folks like Francia Marcus, the presidential, the vice president who, you know, herself is quite inspirational. She's an African woman and environmental as a single mom. And she sort of represents that, you know, those, nobody's the others who have been marginalized historically in Columbia. And I think she represents that hope for a lot of people. And my, you know, talking to people. I mean, that's really who had been inspiring quite a lot of Afro-Columbian young people, but even just, you know, regular, you know, the Afro-Columbians. It reminded me a little bit about when I was in Bolivia back around in 2009 and 2008 with sort of the vindication in Bolivia of sort of the Poyedas and the indigenous, you know, culture in Columbia when I was here in Bogota and being at, you know, some of the rallies and some of the events. Again, you know, the Afro-Columbian, the discussion, you know, average Colombians, you know, you know, mixed like myself who wouldn't necessarily identify with either the Afro-Columbian indigenous roots that for a long time had been marginalized, right? And really that is really galvanizing a lot of people in Columbia. And I think that's really important that, you know, we, we, you know, reconnect the one, those of us who have lost those connections with the Afro-Columbian, the indigenous component of our Colombian history. Wow. Well, she is, to me, she's been, I love Gustavo Petro, but for me personally, I agree with you. She really is the voice, the physical embodiment of the people throughout Columbia who have had no one, you know, directly looking like, who looks physically, looks like them and represents them economically and politically. I mean, she's just amazing. And the strength and courage it's taken for her to run for office is profound. Absolutely. Absolutely. And she's been subject to obviously threats. You know, I was here when, when in the park, the park of the, those better of these thus, where she had a closing campaign and there was a laser pointed at her near the end of the rally, you know, those kind of things, which are obviously in forms of intimidation, violence against political candidates. You know, those are the kind of things that, you know, Colombian democratic, it really, you know, questions, Colombians democratic system when it could happen with an impunity where, you know, members of the, you know, army can, you know, put out statements that could, you know, disparage political candidates, you know, it really, you know, is alarmed for concern. And there's nothing that's ever done. There's very little, there's no consequences that's done to, you know, an army, you know, leader that would, you know, make those kind of comments against, you know, a particular campaign. Can you hear me? I think we lost Terry. I think that's the end of the podcast. Thank you everyone for participating. And we'll be in touch. Bye.