 Okay, Angela, why don't we just start out by, you're describing sort of the nature of your research. I mean, it's, it's pretty interesting. So give it a go. I'm a biological oceanographer. I'm here at the University of Hawaii Manila. I've been here just a few years, but the reason for coming here was to work with this program called the Hawaiian Ocean Time Series. This was begun by Dave Carl and others 30 plus years ago. So it's this really just incredible community resource where we have this long time series record of ocean biology, ocean chemistry, ocean physics at a site about just to the north of Oahu, a place called Station Aloha. So what we're really doing in this time series is just documenting how these ecosystems work, how standard biological and chemical and physical properties change over various time scales from days to months to years to decades. And that's been my sort of heart's favorite research for quite a while here, even before I came to UH Manoa. But beyond that, we've worked in coastal upwelling regimes off the Pacific Northwest in Antarctica and in the Arctic as well. So from the time series, have there been major changes in that? You're looking at a water column, right? Yeah, we're looking at a, we call it a watch circle. You know, a few kilometers of a circle radius where we have deep water moorings where we do ship based sampling of the full water column from the very surface to the sea floor just right above the sea floor. So we're really looking at how various properties are changing in time. Some of the sort of highlights from this program are we've documented very clear and concise changes in seawater chemistry that reflect changes in CO2 from human emissions. More CO2 in the atmosphere, there's more CO2 in seawater as you're seeing air-sea gas exchange. We've got a really strong awareness now of the various climate drivers of ocean biogeochemistry and how it changes production of these ecosystems. And I would say this is probably one of the few time series that is sufficiently long enough that we've started to see emergence of ocean change within the context of the natural variability of these ecosystems. So are the things to be concerned about? Well, I mean, the CO2 certainly is something to be concerned about. So, you know, as I said, this exchange from anthropogenic, so as we emit CO2 into that, I'm seeing other greenhouse gases. There's exchange of that gas with the surface seawater. And that's changing the just fundamental chemistry of seawater. It's making it less basic. There's a process called ocean sophistication that you probably would have heard of. And in changing the acidity of seawater, the pH of seawater, what you've really done is you've used change the environment that these organisms are living in. So for certain organisms that need to build shells, little coccolithophores, or coral reefs, it makes it more challenging for them to really build the environment that they are so reliant upon. So that's one process. You know, obviously changes in temperature on a global scale are concerning. We see that particularly in the Pacific Northwest. You probably heard of the blob that was there a few years back. Some of the temperatures that we've been observing globally around the Arctic are quite dramatic as well. You're seeing 90 plus days off of Anchorage and two to three degree Celsius anomalies off the waters in that coastal environment. Those do have pretty profound impacts for ocean ecosystems. Talk to me a little bit about the impact that the onset of COVID-19 had on you. Yeah, I mean, we, I'm a seagoing oceanographer. I run a seagoing program. So this immediately posed challenges because going to see on a research vessel, although we call them cruises, they're certainly not luxurious. No shuffleboard. No shuffleboard on the Lido deck, nothing like that. You know, you're working in close quarters over the long hours, and that's not something that is conducive with the changes that were necessary to make to protect the science, the Marine Center, the ship's crew from potential exposure to COVID. So in the very beginning, those of us myself included who went on the cruise after the pandemic outbreak. We went into strict quarantine, you know, each and every one of us were isolated in our homes without, you know, interaction with other people. We were doing daily temperature monitoring, we got tested two weeks before the research expedition, tested again three days prior, and then moved on to the vessel but with a severely reduced crew. So we were only able to sail on this giant vessel, the Kilimoana, that's a beautiful vessel with only 11 science crew versus the up to 26 that we would normally take. So obviously, we were not able to do as much in the amount of time that we had, and sometimes it took, you know, working a little bit longer a little bit harder than we had in the past. And that being said, you know, we were one of the very few that were lucky enough to be actually able to go to sea. There were certainly many other groups that off of the islands that either because their labs were closed or travel was restricted, or a variety of other reasons were unable to participate in planned cruises. So for the entire research fleet are along the around the United States and even globally. There was a significant reduction in ship days. So the number of vessels going to see and carrying science. We were viewed as one of the essential activities, the White Ocean time series being a central National Science Foundation funded activity so with those quarantine efforts in place and then hence testing. We were able to get out there and make the measurements that we needed and in 2020 we had 50 days at sea, which is our normal allocation of ship days. But those, those were hard one. It's a, it's a strange reality right wearing masks at sea and distancing so you can all sit in the galley at the same time and you can't serve yourself and you can't just, you know, commune with one another like you normally would and you know you're doing these operations over the side that can be physically strenuous and doing that with a mask was was quite strange. And you know we kept that up for all of 2020 and are still keeping up those protocols in place for 2021. So it's a strange says continued. Yeah, I was going to say, since then have you, how much is this affected your research or your productivity. You know, I guess what it's done is is really make us think about, you know, what our core measurements are, and how we can best allocate our time and resources to protect that core set of measurements and to make sure that the time series integrity is extended. So some of the cruises in 2021, we extended them in time. So we still did the same amount of work, it just took us a little bit more time, because we had fewer people. And, you know, that's, that's been the real challenge but again we are, we are some of the very lucky ones with the numbers being what they are in Honolulu with our research site being within a one day steam of the port which is another restriction that you know has been able to do with all the samples which operates the fleet has had. It's more likely to be able to go to see if you're close to the port we are. So we've sort of passed all these tests and and been able to with the reduced personnel, you know, make these really critical measurements and do so in a way that protects the health of the scientists as well as the health of the crew. So I mean it's almost sounds like, even though it's been a pain. You've pretty much been able to sail through. This is a good analogy for certain. You know that the timing of it's been challenging it's certainly challenging for the Marine Center because they've got crew that they're swapping out every three months. And so they've got to build in time for the crew to quarantine. There's ship schedules as well. A lot of the work that was canceled in 2021 people are hoping to get out to see in 2020 or canceled in 2020. People are hoping to get out to see 2021 2022 so there's a real, you know, crunch for people trying to get the work that they have funded done in a way. Do you know specifically about other places where this has affected their work a little more than yourself. Yeah, I mean we had I was part of one proposal that was supposed to go to the Arctic. And because of, you know, variety of scheduling issues and ship issues and travel issues. And obviously the fact that some of those more remote communities and the Arctic in Alaska, you know, have not been impacted by COVID and would like to keep it that way. So there's been for a lot of the Arctic researchers some very strict rules that have reduced the amount of science that is done in that region. You know, every, every ship is dealing with this a little bit differently. We here have 14 day quarantines prior to the Lord loading the vessel. There are some groups that are working on 10 day quarantine some on seven day quarantines. You know, obviously that comes with the cost to if you're traveling, because you now somehow out of your grant need to find some funding for, you know, hotel or lodging that's in a safe manner. Those costs and, you know, restrictions to travel and restrictions to access to vessels have impacted scientists around the country. The main things I wanted to explore in this documentary was kind of a combined effects of climate change in COVID. And just in passing you mentioned one that I haven't thought of. Because you were saying that that many of the I'm assuming indigenous communities up in Alaska, if they've not been affected by COVID, and yet they have. I mean if they're shut down if climate change is already causing, you know, permafrost and melt, flooding, etc. And now they're being shut down by COVID, even if they haven't been affected. Yeah. So that's kind of a two for there. Are you seeing that. Not directly here. I mean, certainly we know in Hawaii that, you know, native Hawaiians and Pacific Islanders are more impacted by COVID. As are any families that live in, you know, multi generational housing as well so we're not necessarily seeing that impact our science but just as a human and a resident of the state, you know, we are worried for and concerned, you know about the preferential impact of COVID, you know on some of these populations. And I'm wondering, you know, for for quite a while now there's been a lot of climate deniers climate change deniers, and we've had, and we have had sort of COVID 19 deniers. Just, does this sort of. How do you feel about that. There are other political controversies, right. I mean, I feel that now oceanography science and in general it's at its heart apolitical. You know, of course people have differing opinions about whether or not humans are driving climate change. But our job is to collect the data and analyze the trends and in doing so we see just clear, obvious fingerprints of humanity on our ocean ecosystems. And, you know, I think most people love the ocean, and I hope that they would accept and support science that is intended to understand how the oceans work and how they might be changing. In this moment that we're having in history, science should be lauded. Not my research, but with, we've seen these multiple unprecedented vaccine developments on time scales that we've never seen before. And these developments were the work of, you know, dedicated teams of, of scientists trained virologists. And then there's the simple fixes, right wearing a mask, socially distance, you know, all the way up to these complicated technological innovations that we're seeing in the vaccines. So I think that it really shows how invaluable science is to our society. And I would like to think that, you know, time series are playing our part as well where we're able to collect this data and point to the ways in which our planet is changing and sound the alarm case, you know, we can enact some change to preserve these environments. But how do you sound the alarm when science itself has sort of been politicized? You know, we keep showing it over and over. I'm personally like not super comfortable in front of cameras or, you know, doing interviews or outreach, but I will push myself as much as I can to let people know like you can look at these data sets here in Hawaii we've got the Keeling curve, you know, the CO2 data that's collected on Mauna Kea, we've got ocean acidification measurements that we're collecting as part of hot, you know, these are open access data. They're really straightforward. They're data that we share in every single class from undergraduates to graduates, data that I talk about to my family and friends, and it's just, it's demonstrative. There's no argument about it. CO2 measurably is increasing in the oceans and the atmosphere and we have ideas of what the consequences for that are going to be. We know that global temperatures are increasing. There's no dispute about it. So I think sounding the alarm and just being very consistent and resolute about the data that we're collecting, sharing that as broadly and often as we can. Being honest about the uncertainties with this data and creating this conversation, encouraging this conversation. That's, that's about as political as I think we can get. My nephew was a climate historian at Reed College. He's a history major and he wrote a book called Behind the Curve. And one of the sort of takeaways from that book was that scientists didn't do a good enough job of telling their story. You know, they buried their nose in the science that did great science, but they didn't get out there and explain why this is important. Yeah, and I can understand that we're not trained as to communicate in that particular way we, we are trained and we learn this language in this vernacular that it's very specific to our individual fields. So often we don't have the, the language that is going to effectively communicate the data that we're so close to our hearts. I do think that's changing. I do think that there's a real palpable understanding in the geosciences in particular that we've got to do better job of sharing our data on a broad platform because there are so many of these things that we're seeing that just aren't, they're not controversial, they're not, they're not political. These are changes that we are observing on our planet and we need to do something about it. But you've got to start by acknowledging that, you know, making up data, you know, make money in science. You know, it's not, this is not a political act to observe the world around you. Right. This is, this is an act of care and love for this one planet that we share. Yeah, the environment though does affect science. I mean the political environment and I'm just wondering you, do you have any more optimism now that there's a new administration. I wouldn't have lost my optimism in the past administration, you know, because the people who are making these decisions, you know, when I, when I write a grant I'm writing it to the National Science Science Foundation to private foundations like the Simons Foundation to NOAA, to others. The people who work in those environments, they are passionate scientists, right. They've spent their lives doing science, communicating science, and care very much about allocating those funds in a way that's the best advanced science. So, you know, the budget at NSF I know that there were, you know, efforts to cut that budget, but that budget was ultimately protected by Congress. I hope that it will be expanded and protected again under this administration. I haven't left, left lost hope due to the presidents because I think when you filter down through the ranks, you know, we are NSF is full of scientists as is NOAA, and a lot of these, you know, private foundations as well or are really lifting up scientists and giving them a voice to protect not just the applied science but the basic science that the science is just saying I want to understand how something works is ultimately that will matter. So I do feel hopeful. I think that we are as a community doing much better job articulating why science needs to be, you know, continue to support it at multiple levels. Yeah, yeah. Now, are there any upsides to all of this. I was thinking of, you know, bounce back I've heard at Kanama Bay, you know, and what about lower carbon emission carbon emissions from driving less I don't know. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, we have seen silently hearing saying yeah, let's stay down for a while. I'm sure there's quite a few marine organisms that are looking around and be like I'm happy to be alone again. To have fewer humans and we have seen some of these ecosystems thrive. You know, it used to see in 2019 I think something like 3000 sunscreen snorkelers every single day. Now in 2021 they've restricted this to 720 people per day which still sounds like a lot but they're going to be closed every Monday and Tuesday. The, the improvement of the ecosystem state in that place has really provided a renewed focus on conservation of these natural places and that's a bright outcome that certainly is in terms of our carbon footprint. You know, that's, that's a little harder. We know that lockdowns have led to abrupt declines in emissions. The latest data I've seen from the global carbon project was that carbon dioxide emissions declined by about 7% in 2020. And most of that was due to reduction in driving and transportation. And, you know, as I mentioned before, it's, it's just a simple fact that human activities and our global energy emissions that they impact the concentration of greenhouse gases and atmosphere that leads to warming. And this decline 7% it's huge it's something like 2.4 billion tons of carbon dioxide, but even that large reduction, it won't make a dent in the atmospheric CO2 concentration. It'll barely be perceptible in this large integrated atmosphere. So back to Paris Accord numbers that was suggesting that we needed to cut 1 to 2 billion tons of CO2 every single year, if we want to meet the climate change limits for the Paris agreement. And that limit is to limit the global warming to about two degrees above pre industrial. So we've got to find ways to keep up these reductions and our emissions without lockdowns right when we go back to our normal lives. But I think if there's a silver lining in this it's that 2020 really does show to me at least that these coordinated changes in social behavior can truly produce some deep emissions cuts. And we can do this we can reduce emissions and we can do it without lockdowns. It's just going to require cooperation and intention. And what we're working against that a little bit is that we've seen it here in the Bay Area San Francisco Bay Area where bark ridership is is down dramatically and there's some concern that some of these, you know, high speed transportation mass transit systems aren't going to survive. They don't have the ridership. So I think that was been trying to build a mass transit for since I went to school there. Yeah, like I said, I've only been here for a few years but it seems like a quagmire. Yeah, I am hopeful for it I am a high, you know, strong believer in, you know, public transportation. I, there's a lot we can do here to improve bike lanes to improve, you know, reduce the number of cars, etc. So I, I think that on an island is a good place to do that. I'm hopeful that we're going to continue both statewide and nationally to significantly, you know, add money to fix these problems and support public transportation. Are you seeing any other issues that you'd like to raise about climate change and the coronavirus. Any thoughts that you've had about this. Well, I mean, the intersection of these themes climate change and, and pandemics in general. I think it should remind us that we're not separated by, by borders by, by languages by color that we're all sharing the same planet. To me, it's really obvious that we're altering our planet in ways that are going to burden the next generations and reduce their quality of life. And as I said, I think the silver lining in this is that this shows that together when we act as, you know, global collective we can reduce our impact. We can embrace resilience and we cannot ignore the changes that we're inflicting upon the natural world. And if the pandemic has taught us anything it should be that there are consequences for ignoring the problems. Great assuming it'll just go away you'll wake up tomorrow and it will be gone. Right that doesn't pan out very well for a response to viruses and it certainly won't pan out very well as a response to climate change. Thank you very much that's, that's, that's interesting to me just as a newbie coming into it. I guess what I'm struck with too is, you know, as, as, you know, as Westerners we tend to think of yes or no right or wrong this problem or that problem. But when you look at climate change and the coronavirus, we see all these connections. Just think of the meat industry and how that is affecting both the spread of disease and also, you know, the destruction of the climate and I hadn't thought and I don't know whether how scientists look at this who are they always looking for these interrelationships and has that taught us anything. Yeah, I mean, I think some certainly are, you know, science sometimes can be reductive, you know, my PhD for example was on trichodesmium nitrogen fixing cyanobacterium that lives in the subtropical oceans. I know a lot about trichodesmium. So you get to that point where you're trained, you know, and it's sort of really reductive looking at individual problems where you can start to make, you know, some progress. And then it's hard to take 10 steps back and see how it all is connected together. Oceanography is a system science, you can't just focus on biology without thinking of the chemistry and how the physics are changing those environments. So if, if there's any field in geosciences that's looking at connections, it's oceanography. And I know that there's a time it sounds like your nephew is one of researchers that you know are looking at how humans and society are interacting with our environment. And what we can do to change perceptions to enact change to work across societies as a whole. And that sort of cooperation is really going to be key to getting out of this pandemic to getting out of, you know, to really thinking about how our emissions activities are changing our climate. Well, I really want to thank you for your time and I hope you get out on your ship again. I'm going out again in February and they actually loaded today and are heading out right now. Oh, I'm envious. You are welcome at once the travel ban is lifted to come out and join a cruise we take volunteers all the time. I'll be there.