 I'm going to now defend some capitalistic practices or what you wouldn't describe them as capitalistic. But let's talk about Moderna. I like talking about Moderna. So Jean says that the government officials were bribed by Moderna. Let's think about what really happened here. Moderna is a greedy company. They don't like to give out credit. They don't like to give out money. Scientists for the government made crucial discoveries that helped lead to the vaccine and then basically had to sue Moderna to get the credit and get some royalties. That doesn't sound like bribery to me. That sounds like somebody thing. I deserve some credit and I should get some money. And if I have to sue to do it, I'll sue. Secondly, whatever you think about vaccines, their creation was there is a lot of crony capitalism around. But when you think about the vaccines, the government was in this situation where they said, we need to do this quickly. We need to do this faster than anybody has ever done this in history. And so we're going to have a competition. We're going to give money to eight different companies or joint ventures. And we're going to see which one of them can come up with a vaccine first. And the ones that come up with a vaccine first, we will help fund to distribute them. They went so far as to help Moderna build manufacturing plants. Now to me, that's a good thing. If you're in an emergency and you're trying to come up with an emergency medicine, this is what you want. And they did come up with it. And I mean, they oversold the hell out of it, which is really terrible. But there's other business. So this thing about government shielded by loss from government. Excuse me, I'm sorry, hold on. The government shielding the companies from loss. Let's talk about that for a second. See, the problem with Gene is he thinks about capitalism as it should be in its purest form the way Milton Friedman would want it, the way Adam Smith would want it. I'm talking about capitalism as it actually works in the real world. So why did Pfizer and all these other companies want to be shielded from loss for vaccines? The answer is because they had come up with a vaccine for Ebola, thinking that would be a huge thing. It wasn't. So anybody who made a vaccine lost a lot of money. Same thing for various other influenza viruses. They came and they went, and there was no big deal, and vaccine makers lost money. So vaccine makers basically said, I don't know whether this is going to be a big deal or not. If I'm going to get into this, if I'm going to spend billions of my own money, I need some guarantee. I need to know that it's not going to cost me billions of dollars. Otherwise, I won't do it. That's how capitalism, that's how it works in the real world. That's how it works, because they want to make money. And so to me, being shielded from loss by the government was not a bad thing. It was a good thing. The bad thing, as long as we're talking about vaccines, is that when they became available, Fauci and everybody else oversold the hell out of it. They should have said, we don't know whether it transmits or not, because they hadn't tested for that. That was not part of the phase two, phase three testing. They hadn't tested for it. What they should have said was, it will reduce death and disease, death and illness. And that's what it did. It reduced death and illness. But it didn't reduce transmission. Everybody got transmission when, what was the name of that one that came after Delta? Omicron. After when Omicron, everybody got it. I got it. I didn't even know I had it. I agree with Jean that, what did you call it? Crappy cone? What do you call it? There's a lot of capitalism around. Yeah, sure. OK, fine. There is. My point was that is the kind of capitalism that causes problems. The purity of his capitalism doesn't exist. It doesn't exist, at least not in the United States. So to say that that kind of capitalism was a net plus for COVID or didn't have any effect on COVID is silly, because did I say this before? It doesn't exist. And I think I've got another minute or so. But I don't really need another minute or so, because I think I've made my point. Thank you, Joe. Jean, you have 7.5 minutes for your rebuttal. Please take the podium, Jean. Well, you're speaking to the utopian Jean Epstein. And I only want to remind Joe that, as I said, there really is a lot of capitalism in the US. It is a very common error to define capitalism as a system of profit. Look all around you, companies go bankrupt all the time. Most startups fail after a few years. The companies that were dominant 20 years ago, many of them are now nonexistent or on their knees. And so really, I'm not asking for utopia. I'm only asking for the system of profit and loss with which many companies in this country do have to cope by and large. And therefore, I would want to ask Joe that when Rand Paul said the same people who got royalties were dictating policy, or when Joe says that Fauci, the scientist, Aroshel Walensky, were claiming that the vaccines did what vaccines were supposed to do, protect you against infection. And they did this without any basis whatsoever in science. Joe isn't appalled the way I am because he's very tolerant of crony capitalism. Clearly, Fauci, when asked a number of times by Rand Paul, do you get money from these companies? He fumbled. He said, oh, I don't think so. Clearly, he does. Clearly, he profits. This is the corruption of crony capitalism. And it is appalling, that a sophisticated scientist can make a claim about a vaccine for which there is absolutely no basis whatsoever, that Aroshel Walensky can make the same claim. That's when we had the appalling manifestations of crony capitalism. The thing that Joe doesn't seem to like, but I want to remind him again that we do have profit and loss in this system, and we could have had it in this case. Joe seems to have implied earlier that it was too bad that people resisted the mandates. Well, again, Joe, if the vaccine did what you claim it did, and I said, I don't want to get bogged down in that, how do governments mandate its use? And the reason why they did it obviously is that by and large, they were tools of crony capitalism. So the ugliness of crony capitalism became manifest. And now, of course, Joe has completely ducked, I guess my more subtle point, because I guess I sound like a radical libertarian when I talk about the Federal Reserve, but I want to stipulate again because I don't want to push us to the edge of radicalism this evening. I only want to say that it's possible to have a Federal Reserve, a central bank, without six trillion, or nearly six trillion dollars in deficits being financed by this institution that Joe himself condemns, that clearly is also an instrument of crony capitalism. So that's the point, that's what we've got, but I want to remind Joe that I'm not a starry-eyed utopian. I'm not asking for the libertarian revolution to happen tomorrow. I'm only asking that had we had an economy that behaves like much of the economy in this country does behave, a system of profit and loss where responsible capitalists do have to act prudently, where they do get punished if they misallocate capital. I only want to say that we had that system applying to the dominant levers that government exercised during the pandemic. We would have had a much better result.