 My name is Jim. This is the so-you-got-arrested DEF CON talk. I've been a criminal defense attorney here in Las Vegas for the past two years or so, and my first DEF CON was DEF CON 7. So I've been doing this a lot. Is this anybody's first DEF CON here? Holy crap! You're all screwed, but don't worry, it gets better. Okay, since this is a legal talk, I'm gonna have a legal disclaimer, which basically says that a 20-minute talk at DEF CON is no substitute for a real attorney. This is gonna be a very general talk. I don't have that much time. So if you do get arrested, please get a real attorney on your specific case. This talk also does not cover everything bad you might do here in Las Vegas. I'm only gonna talk about state or local laws, not federal laws. Mostly because that's what you're most likely to get arrested for here is some state law. If the feds are here looking for you in particular, again, the 20-minute talk is not gonna help you very much. Okay, general outline of what I'm gonna talk about. First, we're gonna talk about crimes you might commit here at DEF CON. I'm just might. I'm not gonna say you should commit a crime here. I don't need the business that bad. And then what happens when you get arrested and how to help yourself and your friends once you do get arrested? So generally crimes here in Nevada are, there's three different levels of crimes, misdemeanors, gross misdemeanors, and felonies. There's actually five different levels of felonies, but that's more detail than you need right now. Just know that misdemeanors are good because you'll get out of custody really fast and probably just have to do some community service or something like that. Gross misdemeanors and felonies require as punishment either jail or prison terms and probation with like probation officers. So those are bad. You don't want to get a gross misdemeanor or felony. Can you read the slide, Matt? Come on. Example of a gross misdemeanor. Oh Jesus. Let's see. There's not that many of them actually, specifically. Having child pornography, I think is a gross misdemeanor. Yeah, I know you're screwed now. All right, so there are some crimes you might commit at DEF CON. I'm just taking a wild guess, having gone to about 10 of them now, that these might be some of the crimes people would do here. I don't know. I couldn't name names or anything. But here are some of the crimes you might commit at DEF CON. First, you might have some drugs on you or someone you know might have drugs on you. These are just some of the drug crimes here in Nevada. There are several I left off this list. They could charge you from anywhere, from the least serious, which is called possession of dangerous drugs, not to be introduced in interstate commerce. That's a misdemeanor drug charge. It doesn't matter how many of them you get. They're always misdemeanors. Usually, punishments are like $250 fine, spend a night in jail, and go home. On the other end of the scale, you have trafficking and controlled substance, which if you have enough drugs on you, could actually land you a life sentence in prison here. And really, the only difference between these drug crimes is how much you have on you. So if you have a whole lot, you can get a whole lot of time. My only other tip with drug crimes is you see possession with intent to sell. They almost always say you have intent to sell if you have more than one baggie on you. So if you have drugs that come in baggies, put it all in one bag, you'll be better off. I'm just saying theoretically, you know, no one here has drugs, but yeah, that's not good. Don't have a bag full of bags either. All right. Prostitution is illegal in Las Vegas. I don't care what you've heard, I don't care what the trucks driving down the street with chicks on them say. Prostitution is illegal here. Prostitution is only legal in Nevada counties where their population is 300,000 or less. The closest place is Perump. You can Google maps that or you can ask the concierge, they'll send a limo out to get you and drive you there and back. But prostitution is illegal here. Solisting prostitution, which is just the basic trying to pick up a prostitute is a misdemeanor. They'll give you a ticket and send you on your way. Pandering is trying to be a pimp. And that's a felony punishable by one to four years in prison. And Metro does have vice cops, Metro being the police officers here, refer to them as Metro. They do have vice cops who will go out and try to catch you doing either one of these things. They have women, female officers who will go out and try to catch you. And basically what it comes down to is if you say the wrong words, if you do a little, hey baby, come with me, I'll get you cars, just work for me a little bit. You can get hit with a pandering charge, get a felony. Don't do that. And then finally my favorite term ever is trick roll. And I put it up here to let you know, don't get trick rolled while you're here. If you go against my advice and hire a prostitute, don't get trick rolled. The trick roll is when a prostitute rips off a John. Usually by before after sex saying, why don't you go have a shower? I'll be waiting for you here for you when you get back. You go have a shower in your hotel room, she grabs your wallet and your keys, and your watch and takes off, and you've been trick rolled. And usually it's the perfect crime because most guys don't want to explain to their wife why they have to come back to Vegas to testify in court against this prostitute in a couple months. So they almost always get away with it. So if you hire a prostitute, don't do that. Don't get trick rolled. All right, there are hacking computer crimes here in Nevada under state law. You're not actually going to get charged with any of them because this is DEF CON and the cops don't come here looking to arrest anybody for that. If you do a real hacking crime, you're probably get arrested by the feds anyway. It won't happen here in state court. And usually from what I've seen in my experience, these are like, the people who get charged with these types of crimes are people who rip off their own company by using computers to transfer money into their account or issue fake checks or something like that. They get charged with felony fraud or theft. And then they tack on a computer crime because they used a computer in the crime. But I have never seen anybody like Hackerie charged with an actual hacker crime. So don't worry about it. Unlawful use of encryption. If you use encryption in order to evade police officers is actually a felony. Now, whether that would stand up to constitutional scrutiny, that's an, I don't know, but that's probably a child porn thing. Really, honestly, that's who would get charged with that if you encrypt your child porn, you'll get charged with the encryption charge. Cheating on gambling. Don't cheat on gambling. The casinos are very good at catching you cheating. I had a client actually just this week who, what he did was, he was playing roulette. He put his chips down on 18, the wheel spins. It comes up 21. So he grabs his chips off the table and makes a dash for it. Yeah, you can't do that. Don't use the cute little iPhone app to help you count cards at Blackjack. The cops know it's out there. The casinos know it's out there. And these are felony charges. They usually get reduced down if you're a tourist, like a misdemeanor. But it's not worth the hassle to cheat on it. Oh, the first one. Oh, don't communicate the odds to other players. If you're counting cards, don't communicate with other people and tell them what the count is. Something like that. All right, DUI is probably one of the most likely things that you get caught doing here in Vegas. The legal limit is, of course, 0.08 as in most of the country. This is an implied consent state, which means that by driving here, it is implied that you consent that your blood or breath be taken to test for blood alcohol. What that means is you have to take either a blood or a breath test if you get pulled over under suspicion of DUI. And if you refuse to do either a blood or a breath test, you will be taken to jail. They will literally strap you in a chair and have a nurse come take a blood sample from you. So it's not worth it to say, fuck you, officer. I'm not giving you anything. You'll give it to them one way or the other. My tip here is, if you think you're drunk, ask for the blood test. Why? Because officers have breath tests in their car. They can test you immediately. Blood tests are back at the station. It takes 15 minutes to get there. If you're lucky in your borderline, your blood alcohol level will be a little bit lower 15 minutes later. So if you get pulled over, suck it up, spend the night in jail, but ask for the blood test. And Nevada has a three-strike state. If you get three DUIs within seven years, and that counts DUIs from any state, the third DUI is mandatory prison time, one to six years in prison. And I do have clients who are currently doing prison sentences because they got way too many DUIs within seven years. So don't do that. Sorry, I'm all doom and gloom. Disorderly conducts the misdemeanor. That's like being drunk and disorderly. It's very rare you actually get charged with that just for being drunk. Casinos usually handle drunk people just fine without calling the police. If you're under the age of 21 and have a fake ID for buying liquor, that's a gross misdemeanor. But if you're not under 21 trying to buy liquor and you just have a bunch of fake IDs or you're selling at the vendor room or something like that, that's a felony charge that you probably don't want to pick up. Carrying concealed weapon, if you are a gun owner and you have a gun here, you should probably already know whether or not your carry concealed weapon license is good in Nevada. If you don't know, you should probably not carry your gun until you figure it out. And if you get charged with any carry concealed weapons charges, 99% of the time you will not get your weapon back. So be careful. If you like that gun, you might get it somewhere else until you can figure out if you're actually supposed to be carrying concealed here. And petty larceny is just petty theft, like stealing a bottle of booze from the gift shop down the hall. But if you do steal a bottle of booze from the gift shop down the hall, beware. Because while petty larceny is a misdemeanor, burglary is a felony. And if you can read the whole list, I'm not going to read the whole thing. It's basically if you enter any structure bigger than a bread box in order to commit a crime, you get charged with burglary. So while picking up the bottle of booze and making off with it is a misdemeanor, entering the store in order to do that is a felony punishable by one to 10 years in jail. And they will charge you with it just to screw you over and make you want to deal down to something lesser. Basically is how they operate around here. And no, I don't know how you enter a glider. So don't ask. All right. Let's say you get arrested. You'll be arrested by these nice people, the Metropolitan Police Department of Las Vegas. All right, what happens when you get arrested? Well, they may read you your Miranda warnings. I say may. They don't have to read you your Miranda warnings. Miranda only comes into play if they want to use the statements you made against you at trial while you're in custody. If they don't care about statements you're making, they don't need to read you Miranda. A lot of DUI people are not read Miranda because all they need really is your blood and the fact you were driving. They don't care what you have to say. There's some misconceptions I've had from clients where they think if you don't get read your rights, your case is magically dismissed or done. That's just not true. If you are read Miranda though, please invoke your right to silence. Do not try to social engineer your way out. It will not go well. Your lawyer will be mad at you later. So don't try to do that. Ask explicitly for an attorney. And when I say explicit, I mean explicit. Say I want my attorney. Because the courts have ruled that saying something along the lines of, you know, I think would be a good idea. I should probably talk to my attorney. Doesn't count as invoking your right to an attorney. So really, you have to be very explicit. Say I want my attorney. I'm not talking without my attorney. If you're under 18, you have a right to have your parents present for any questioning. I know it would really suck to call your parents up and say, hey, I'm getting arrested. Could you come down here? But it's better than talking to the police and your parents will probably try to help you out anyway. So if you're under 18, ask for your parents to be present. Now they do have the option for misdemeanors of just giving you a citation or a ticket and letting you go on your way. That would probably happen for things like soliciting prostitution, having marijuana. Yes. Yeah. John was very excited about that. But for anything else, you're probably gonna go to jail. And this is the jail you'll go to. You'll go to the Clark County Detention Center. You're not jailed? It does have a website, but it kind of sucks. You'll probably go to Clark County Detention Center, not the city of Las Vegas jail. The Clark County Detention Center because right now you're actually not in the city of Las Vegas, but you are in Clark County. All of the strip is actually in an unincorporated area of Clark County known as Paradise, Nevada. You're not the city of Las Vegas. If you don't leave the strip, you actually never enter the city of Las Vegas. So you'll be taken to the Clark County Detention Center. If you're charged with a misdemeanor in the city of Las Vegas itself, if you wander off the beaten path, you might get taken to the city of Las Vegas jail. You also might get housed there because Clark County Detention Center or CCDC, as we call it, gets kind of full. So then sometimes people go to the city of jail. There's a couple other jails around town, but these are the two main ones. And I would say you have a 95% chance of getting taken to the Clark County Detention Center if you get arrested. All right, well, how do you get out of there once you get into the Clark County Detention Center? A couple different options. The best obviously is to get an owner cognizance release or OR. If you get arrested on something fairly minor like a misdemeanor, the jail actually has the discretion to just let you go. You don't have to go in front of a judge first. The jail will just let you go. If the jail is not willing to just let you go, then you'll have to go to before a judge. That may take 24 to 72 hours before you can ask a judge to release you. You can call for help from the jail. Once you get processed through at CCDC, they'll hold you in this big waiting room, and there's a line of pay phones that are set up for free calling, and you pretty much get unlimited calls for the first 12 hours or so you're there. But you obviously have to have someone's phone number memorized. They're not gonna let you keep your cell phone. So know somebody's number you can call, but you will get free calls. Yes. I think so, yes. I've never tried it myself. But. I believe yes, even free long distance. I don't know about international calls though, so. And then, oh, there we go. Or if you don't get an OR, you can post bail. There's two options. In this state, it's a cash or bond state. Judges usually would post bail, let's say $1,000. That means you can either post $1,000 cash or go to a bondsman and give them about 15% of that to post a bond. So 150 bucks would get you bonded out. If you post the cash, you get all of it back at the end of your case. If you post a bond, you don't get any of that back from the bondsman. So it depends how much cash you have lying around, but it's generally better to try to get out just on cash and not deal with the scummy bail bondsman, but if you have to, you have to. I do not have any particular recommendations about which bondsman to use. They're all kind of shady and terrible, so. It's the truth. They'll give you an opportunity to bail yourself out if you get arrested with credit cards on you for small charges, otherwise you'll probably need your friends on the outside to help you get a bondsman in on the action. So how do you help your friends out if they're in CCDC? You can bail them out, which would be the best thing to do. You can also visit them at CCDC. Visiting depends on where they're housed. And it usually takes 12 to 24 hours for you to move from the general waiting or the drunk tank area up to the housing area. After that time, call CCDC, tell them the person's real name. Yeah, I know. They have to know their real name, and they'll tell you when you can come visit them. And visiting at CCDC is only by video conference. You'll get a little booth with a phone and a screen, and that's the only visiting you can do. The only people who get to visit in person are lawyers or cops. You can also put money on their books, which means going to CCDC and giving them some money so they can buy things at the jail commissary. Things like toothpaste, soap, food other than bologna sandwiches, which is, from what I understand, the main course of every meal at CCDC. And that's actually how O.J. Simpson made friends with all of his cell mates was that he had a bunch of money on his books and bought everybody Snickers bars every day. So everyone loved O.J. while he was here. This should be self-explanatory, but if you are even wondering, do I need a lawyer right now? The answer is yes, yes you do. The only time you don't is for minor misdemeanor charges. You can probably handle it yourself with the judge, but for anything bigger than that, yeah, you probably need to get a lawyer. So what happens after you're stuck in there, your friends haven't bailed you out, you're enjoying the baloney. Within 24 hours, you have to come before a judge for what's called a probable cause hearing. I've never heard of a probable cause hearing failing. I mean, it's a check, but basically the cops just have to say, yeah, we arrested that guy and you're gonna be staying in for a little while longer. At 72 hours, you have to be arraigned on charges prepared by the district attorney's office. If they don't have those prepared, you will be released and told to come back later and they'll give you a court date. And if you don't show up later, you'll get a bench warrant and that's bad and I don't need to get into all that, but if they do file charges within 72 hours, then you have a right to a trial. Within 15 days, you have a right to a misdemeanor trial or preliminary hearing if you're charged with a gross misdemeanor or felony. Within 60 days, you have a right to a felony trial. Obviously, if you're out of custody, usually you waive your right to a speedy trial because if you're out of custody, you don't really care, you'd rather probably put off as long as possible and I know your lawyer will want to put off as long as possible so he can get more money out of you. So how long overall does this process take? For minor misdemeanors, you'll be out of there, before your flight back. DUIs take six months just because it takes that long to get the blood results back. You're not gonna be in custody for six months, but it could take up to six months. Usually for misdemeanor charges, you have one court date after your arraignment. For felony or gross misdemeanors, you'll have two or more court dates so you may have to come back to Las Vegas a couple of times if you get in real trouble. All right, now I have made up these handy reference cards here for everyone to take. On one side is your Miranda warnings, on the other side is the contact info for the two jails I mentioned, Clark County Tension Center in Las Vegas City Jail, a space for an emergency contact number, and a space for a bail bonds contact number. I printed them up at my house, thank you. I did not use office supplies. But if you keep these on you and ask the cop who's resting you real nice, they'd probably let you keep this, they're not gonna let you keep your cell phone to get in touch with anybody. So have this in your wallet, be prepared, and hey, it's DEF CON. You think it's not gonna happen? Can we have a show of hands again? How many people have been arrested here in Las Vegas? All right, so it can happen. Oh yeah. All right, if you say while you're in custody that you wanna kill yourself, you'll be taken to a spot in CCDC called 2C, and 2C is the crazy word. They will take away all your clothes, all your blankets, and you'll be given this big futon thing that's kind of a blanket and a bed at the same time, and that's it, that's all you get. And then when your lawyer goes to visit you, he's really annoyed because you're naked. I've had to do it a couple of times, and it's always like, oh, I don't wanna go 2C. So don't say that. Yes, what would you plausibly be denying, exactly? He asked, if we carry these cards, do we still have plausible deniability? And I said, it depends on what you're trying to plausibly deny, I don't know. You're not gonna be able to plausibly deny drunk driving. Oh gee, I didn't know I was drunk, not a good move. Yes, I'm attending the con, so how available I am may depend on how many drinks I've had, but yes, theoretically you could try to get in touch with me if someone does get arrested, and I will try to help out. I may even do it for free. Oh, statute of limitations, good question. For misdemeanors, one year, for anything bigger, three years. Not for everything, sorry. For rape and murder, et cetera, et cetera, it's forever, but you know, it's three years for most felonies, like theft crimes, things like that. Yes, pretty much. Well, probably, sorry, I'll repeat the question. He was asking, okay, for burglary, if you go in some place and you just vandalize it, but you don't steal anything, is that still a burglary? It depends on the level, how much vandalizing you do. There's a crime called most destruction of private property. If it's over $250, it's a gross misdemeanor. If it's over $2,500 with the property damage, it's a felony, so then yes, once it's a felony, yes, you can get a burglary out of it. Technically, they have to show that you intended that when you entered the store, so the classic defense is, well, you only decided to steal something once you got in the store and realized you didn't have enough money, that generally doesn't work, in real life, the defense doesn't work. It could work, I'm not saying it can't, but anything. Burglary applies to any structure through the big list that I showed you, yeah. Yes, non-US citizens also have the right to a free attorney if you cannot afford one. If you're a flu here and have a job, you probably can afford one, but non-US citizens, non-US citizens do have the right to contact their consulate and have a consular officer come also talk to them. So if you're a non-US citizen, demand to talk to your consulate as well as the other things you should be demanding to see an attorney. There is one, don't have them. He asked, is there open container law here? The answer is yes. Pretty much any open alcoholic container is not okay, anywhere in the car. Oh, if you're walking down the street with an open container, you can do it on Las Vegas Boulevard here and Fremont Street downtown. If you get off the strip, then it's not okay to have an open container anymore, but you can have one on the strip, yes. What about cabs? Yes, you can have an open container if you're in the backseat of a cab or a limo, but not in a private vehicle. Oh, another thing, it's also illegal for cabs to pick you up anywhere except a cab stand in Nevada. So the guys who are trying to pick you up when you're walking down the street are shady and should not be doing that. But you don't get in trouble if you get in a cab, they get in trouble. Drunk and public, I very rarely see those cases. Mostly the casinos kind of take care of it, tell you to go to your room or get lost. They'll probably just take you to the detention center to cool off until you're not drunk anymore and kick you out. I rarely see anybody who's just drunk and public in charge with any crime though. No, I only do criminal law, criminal defense to be specific. No, yeah, Las Vegas Metro, the Metropolitan Police Department is actually a Clark County organization. And the city of Las Vegas and several other cities contract out with them to do their law enforcement, is how it technically works. So Metro could pretty much arrest you anywhere they wanna arrest you in Clark County. Yeah, so the only other cities that have their own police force are Henderson and North Las Vegas and they have their own police forces. So if you're there, you can arrest them by one of them instead. But if you're here at DEF CON, you probably won't be in North Las Vegas or Henderson, so you don't have to worry about that. He asked me if the cops are generally nice here or if they're pricks. I would just like to note I'm being recorded right now and I work here. It depends, I'll say that, okay. If you're not a jerk to them, they won't be a jerk to you. They're just doing their jobs most of the time and they just don't want to be hassled. So don't hassle them. Yes, don't resist arrest, thank you, sir. Yes. Do you ask me what the lockpick carry laws are? There is a crime called possession of burglary tools, which is a gross misdemeanor. It's carrying, and the statute's actually ridiculous, like a burglary tool is anything that might be used in a burglary and I've literally had like plastic shopping bags called burglary tools because someone was gonna hide merchandise in them. So you're supposed to be carrying them under circumstances where it looks like you might be doing a burglary of some kind. So just carrying them around and having them here at DEF CON should be fine. If you're in like a store after hours when it's closed and you have some lockpicks on you, not so good. But you should be able to carry them around here just fine, no problems. I think he asked, what's the best way to solicit a prostitute without giving an undercover? Without giving an officer a probable cause? Oh. Accidentally arrested. Accidentally, yes. If you're just straight up trading sex for money, then that's a misdemeanor soliciting charge. It's when you get into the whole, hey, why don't you come work for me stuff that's bad. The Metro officers here will come up to people and ask them if they're interested in stuff. So it's not entrapment in most of the time. They may try to entrap you, but if a girl walks up to you and says, hey, give me $50, we'll go have a good time, don't do it, that's the safest way. But no, I'm not gonna give out tips otherwise on how to pick a prostitute. No, that's a big myth. If you ask someone if they're a cop, they get to say, no, I'm not. They don't have to reveal that they are cops. Yes, cops can lie to you as much as they want. Yes, it can cops lie. If you're in a police station being questioned by the cops, they get to lie to you as much as they want about things like, oh, your friend you were with just sold you out. They told us everything that happened. So why don't you just tell us, we'll try to help you out. If they're lying, that's fine, they get to do that. They don't get to do certain things like promise you a certain kind of deal. Say we'll reduce the charges from X to Y. And that's for the state and your lawyer to work out later if that's gonna happen. But for the most part, yes, the cops can lie to you as much as they want and that's perfectly fine. Can you lie to them? Can you lie to the cops? Sure. Yeah, not recommended. You might get false information to police officers of crime too, but like I said, just be nice to the cops. They'll probably be nice to you. They'll make everyone's time better and hopefully get you out of trouble. What? What if you actually did a crime? You mean like every client I've ever had? Yes. Yes. Yeah, don't worry if you actually did it. I mean, the criminal justice system is all a big game in trying to bargain the other side down to a lesser charge what they originally charged you with. Which is why I talked about the ridiculous burglary charge is so they can stack up charges to be like, oh, instead of charging with a misdemeanor, look, now it's a felony. So now when we offer you the original petty larceny misdemeanor that you're actually guilty of, you'll just plead to that so that we'll dismiss the burglary charge. So it's all a big game that the state plays to try to intimidate you. And you know, most of the time it actually is in your best interest because you could roll the dice at trial on a felony or you could just plead guilty to what you actually did the misdemeanor and go home the same day. So most people choose to go home but it's up to you in your particular case. So, yes. Oh, can I give examples of how much it costs for certain lawyer services? No, no, no, DUI probably costs $1,000 to take care of. That's still with a guilty plea. Yes, that's still with a guilty plea whoever said that. DUI is probably $1,000. I'm gonna say $5,000 to do a misdemeanor trial or a preliminary hearing. And once you get up to an actual felony trial we're talking tens of thousands of dollars depending on the lawyer. Right, the $1,000 I mentioned for DUI's attorney's fees. The minimum possible punishment for a DUI is a $508 fine, DUI school, victim impact panel which is like another class. And I think that's it. If you spend two days in jail on top of that that should be done. Oh, yeah. Right, oh, he's asking, what about those billboards that say, hey, we guarantee we'll take care of your traffic ticket with no fees and no fines, et cetera. Those are actually against the ethics code that we subscribe to here. There's first amendment claims, which is why they stay up but the ethics code says you can never guarantee results for a specific case. I can't tell you if you tell me you have a traffic ticket I can't guarantee that I'll get a certain result for you because it's not under my control. It's up to the judge what happens to your case. As far as all the people you see on TV and who have billboards ads, billboard ads up and everything, I've never actually seen any of those people in a court ever. So don't go with by who has the flashiest ad or the most commercials because they don't come to court much. They shovel off all their work off onto underlings anyway and I'm not exactly sure how they got so much money. How often do DUI cases get dismissed? Almost never, sometimes they can be reduced down to reckless driving down from DUI is common, but yeah, they almost never get dismissed because once they have your blood, as long as they pulled you over for legitimate reason, you're pretty much cooked. I will say this though on the DUI topic is in my experience, all my clients I have for DUI get pulled over with like 0.2 something or 0.18 or something like that. It's really rare to see someone right on the borderline and I think the reality of it is you really don't start swerving and driving crappy unless you're really, really drunk. Do you say can you get charged with impaired driving if you're not drunk? Oh yeah, I mean if they pull you over and you're not actually drunk, there are some traffic offenses they could charge you with. Theoretically you can get charged with DUI even if you're below 0.08. You can get charged for having any alcohol in your system but that's really rare because for technical legal reasons they're gonna take me longer than the 30 seconds I have but they can charge you with DUI for having any alcohol in your body. They can also charge you with DUI for having marijuana or other drugs in your body too. So you're not off the hook, sir. Yes. How do you pick a good attorney is the question. Ask other attorneys. Ask other attorneys or ask people who live here in Las Vegas who a good attorney is. Sorry, what was that? Oh yeah, any attorney who you ask, recommend a good attorney and they say themselves is an asshole and don't go with them. You know, I mean I have a list in my head of several attorneys I would recommend to friends and I'm sure all other attorneys do too. I'm not gonna say them here because I'm not here to advertise for those people but yeah we all know each other for the most part in the, especially the criminal defense community we do all kind of hang out together so we know each other. Yeah, let's go ahead. All right, that's two people at the same time and I also couldn't hear you so yell louder. The question is if you're driving drunk by yourself would it be beneficial to hop in the passenger seat and pretend like the real driver ran away? And she has seen it on cops so it must be true. No, it did not help him. No, because the law is actually driving or being an actual physical control of a vehicle. And there'll be lots of technical legal questions about whether you're actually in physical control of a vehicle and the other problem of no one will believe you for a second. All right, I'm being knotted out that I'm over time by about 10 minutes so that's it ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much for coming.