 Welcome back, we do sincerely apologize for our inability to conclude that interview. We started with Mr. Augustine Edgar who had joined us to take a look at security logistics of a presidential inauguration. We did have some technical glitches that needed to be sorted out. But right now it's time for a second hot topic. I want to take a look at the over 13 trillion dollars spent on subsidy payment in 16 years in this country. And we have been joined by Mohammed Abdul-Lahi who is a public affairs analyst. Hello, Mohammed. Good to have you join us. Good morning, Agents. My pleasure. All right. So this outgoing government, this administration of President Mohammed Abu Hari has made some things known to us, especially recently at the unveiling of the 2022-2026 strategic plan of the Nigeria Extractive Industries Transparency Initiative in Abuja on Monday. And part of what they revealed to us is this over 13 trillion dollars spent on subsidy payment in 16 years. However, one of the things that stood out in that meeting that they said is that they are also insisting that they have performed excellently well in the management of fuel subsidy. Do you share this excellency that they attributed to themselves? Is it reflective of the prevailing economic realities on ground? It's quite confusing to some extent because I remember before 2015, I mean, the elections that brought in President Mohammed Abu Hari was all over the media, you know, talking about the fact that there was really no subsidy being paid by the previous government, in fact that subsidy was a kind of a scam by the previous government. But having said that, I think when they came into, when the president and his team came into power after 2015, they realized that truly there was a kind of subsidy, even though it's not too beneficial to the common Nigerian. So but shockingly, I for once would have thought it would have been better to actually separate what the current government have paid for subsidy from, you know, the previous government. Because if you look at what you mentioned and the report says in 16 years, it would have been better. I think it would have been better. I haven't seen the report, but it would have been better to see categorically what the current administration of President Mohammed Abu Hari has paid in the past eight years. I think that would have been a better measure of talking about what the government has achieved, whether it has done well or not, compared, like you already mentioned, with the economic realities of what's on ground and vis-à-vis the availability of PMS and all that food or product, how Nigerians have enjoyed, you know, in the past eight years, how we are fed and so on and so forth. So I think it would have been better if it's this administration, what they have spent on subsidies actually separated from the past eight years. Haven't said that. That is one. But I think another challenge is the fact that, you know, I remember vividly as part of the reasons why Nigerians voted in the outgoing government is the fact that the government made promises of actually ending this debacle that has cost Nigeria this, you know, lingering subsidy if there's anything like that. I mean, the government made mention of the fact that every year it will revamp our existing refineries, our existing petroleum refineries that has cost us a whole lot in terms of shipping our food oil abroad and shipping in PMS product that is so, so much in demand and in need to many Nigerians across world. So I think the government has also failed in that regard, so which is a big disappointment that even at this moment, we are still talking about subsidy after 60-something years of independence in Nigeria that we still import, we still export our food oil and then import PMS. So I think those are my two points of what are observed in this report. Okay. Well, they didn't separate it. And I am not going to give details of that just for clarity and to be accurate. I do not have it that broken down at the moment. However, they did say that it is that 13 trillion has been spent in 16 years. Also, one of the things that stood out from that meeting is the fact that the federal government is developing a comprehensive guide for the incoming administration of Volatine 1, how to manage the removal of subsidy of petrol. Do you see them having said what you said, do you see them being in the position to do this, to give a guide to the incoming government in regards to fuel subsidy, how to manage it? You know, I will still go back to my earlier point. It's shocking that seriously, we're even still talking about a guide on how to manage petrol and subsidy. Because seriously, I think at this point in time, like I said, if the outgoing government has made true of its promises to Nigerians, I think we will have been talking about, I think the right thing that we'll have been talking about now is to talk about how, you know, probably to increase, you know, refining capacity, how to increase maybe the existing refineries that we have. Mind you, yes, we have a private refinery that is coming on board that is said to be commissioned on the 22nd of this month. I mean, the dam go to refinery that is said to be the largest train refinery in the world. But you also want to understand that that's a private business. You know, everywhere all over the world, monopolies and businesses are made to make profit. So for anyone that is thinking because the dam go to refinery is coming on board and everything will be an El Dorado for Nigerians. I think that person should have a rethink or people should have a rethink. Because like I mentioned earlier, private businesses, particularly at this point in time that is even a monopoly. We will have all. Okay, welcome back. We sincerely do apologize for all the glitches we're experiencing with connectivity today. Our guest, Mohammed Abdul-Lahi, Public Relations Analyst, he's still with us. He just joined us again after sorting out the problems with his connectivity. He's joined us from Kaduna State. Mohammed, good to have you back. Yes, thank you. All right, so a while ago, when we started this conversation, you were talking about how that the 13 trillion era revealed by the federal government as what has been spent on subsidy in 16 years did not give details as to how much this administration has spent. And while we're sorting out the connectivity problems, I did Google is your friend. So I checked and I understand that 6.88 trillion era has been spent by this administration between 2015 to 2022. And that's from the Nigerian National Petroleum Company Limited. So does that reflect the prevailing economic situation in the country? Did it reflect in any way? I think I will give my answer in two ways. To be very candid, I know that like what the government have been saying in Nigeria, we buy, I mean, the petroleum product, I mean, PMS is one of the cheapest around Africa, if not around the world. So you want to give those to the successive government in being able to maintain the fact that Nigerians enjoy to some level of, you know, some level of cheap product in terms of PMS particularly. So that's one. But again, the amount of money, if you say 6.8 trillion or so in the past eight years is actually humongous. If you compare it to particularly our national budget, I know our budget for this year is somewhere around 20.7 trillion. So it means in the past eight years, we've spent more than a quarter of our country's budget, I mean, of our yearly budget, subsidizing petroleum product. What is the challenge there? Or what are the advantages? Yes, the advantages, like I said earlier, we as Nigerians have been buying PMS, I mean, relatively cheap. But again, the disadvantage is that it has deprived us of so many infrastructures, like particularly putting our existing refineries into functional use. They're just lying there. People are collecting salaries without actually doing nothing and so on and so forth. So I think realistically, I wouldn't say it has done well to the economy, to, I mean, to the lives of many Nigerians because we keep recording, we are more impoverished. We have so many Nigerians that are living below poverty line and so on and so forth. So perhaps I think it is right time. I'm an advocate of the fact that yes, Nigerians have been buying fuel cheaply, but I think it is right time that the incoming government face it squarely, remove the subsidy, but gradually ensuring that we have our refineries functioning. That will cushion the effect of the subsidy removal subsequently. Perhaps because we have, you know, an existing dengote refinery that probably, I mean, after the commissioning, we hope that it will become, it will be functional. And then, like I said earlier, we have our existing refineries across the country functional as well. So competing with the private refinery of dengote. That would definitely reduce the effect, the subsidy removal we have on Nigeria. So that's my own way of thinking at the moment. Okay. Well, I recall that the Minister of Finance, Budget and Plan in Hajjia, Zayn and Ahmad, had told members of the House of Reps that the government had projected to spend 6.72 trillion on subsidy in 2023. 2023. I don't know if you remember that report. Hello. Can you hear me, Mohammed? I don't think I remember. All right. I can hear you, I can hear you. Okay. And also, you know, they had also planned that subsidy would be removed in June until it was suspended. And he had also revealed that the budget for this year did not include subsidy for June. I mean, for July, I beg your pardon. So petrol consumers may pay about 8.4 trillion era for petrol between July and December of 2023. What's your take on this revolution? It's very possible. Like I mentioned earlier, I think the right thing to do is actually to begin to begin. It's going to be very daunting. It's going to be very challenging. It's going to be very excruciating for Nigerians. But seriously, the right thing to do is begin the process of the subsidy removal. If you look at the staggering figures that you've been calling all the while, you know, but the figures are very staggering. If you have that, in fact, I mean, this year we are borrowing more than 50% of our budget figures. Yeah, we are borrowing, external borrowing of more than 10 trillion era to finance the budget. While we are paying, you know, paying such humongous money as subsidies to very few Nigerians who are enjoying the largest. So I think, yes, it's going to be excruciating. But the challenge again is the fact that the outgoing government have not put in the work to make it easy for the incoming government to outright remove the petroleum subsidy. But that's what they are saying. They are saying that they are developing a comprehensive guide. They have just two, about two weeks to go, and they say they are developing a comprehensive guide for the incoming administration. How do you develop a comprehensive guide when you've not put in the background work, the background things that you are supposed to do? And what are the background work? They are simple. The fact that, yes, you make promises that we will have our refineries, the existing refineries functional. Those are the best background work and the guide that you will have given to this incoming government. Yes, I know the government might be making an argument for the year to the commission down go to refineries on the 22nd of this month. But like I keep saying, that is a private business. That is a private. And we all know what private businesses mean across the world. What monopolies for that matter means across the world. So I see it as a bit of achievement, but that is not what we really need. We really need our existing government refineries to be functional in order to cushion this effect of subsidy removal. Because I bet you the incoming government will have a very daunting task. Like you mentioned, there is no subsidy arrangement in the budget since from July. So it means in as much as this government is coming into power on the 29th of this month of May, it is left just one month to make all these plans. So Nigerians might begin to hate this incoming government. Because if they want to go by what is on ground, it means probably they might just be coming into power. And what the challenge they will be facing is to just remove the subsidy outrightly. And that means we will be buying PMS probably at 400, 500 Naira. And you know what that means across the world in Nigeria. So I don't see the comprehensive guide they are talking about as a palliative. It's going to be a daunting task ahead. When you say gradual removal, can you just espaciate on that? Mohammed? Yes, what I mean gradual removal. I am talking about the fact that there are things on ground to cushion the effect of the removal. And I keep happening on the fact that even if it's one refinery that is functional at capacity, you know, you say, okay, the Kaduna refinery is functional at capacity. It can actually service probably the not central. You know, the need of the not central only or even the need of two, three states only. That is fine. They can begin to remove the subsidy at that moment. Then you make sure that the, you know, the protocol refinery is also working that can service the south, south and south. You know, things like that are on ground, you know, because I don't see the fact that, okay, I think what the government is planning, you know, getting the loan from the World Bank, $800 million just to pay some impoverished Nigerians probably about $5,000 every month for maybe five months or six months or even one year. That won't go, that won't do anything to the problem. Seriously. It's just like compounding the problem for me. So what I think when I say gradual removal of subsidy, I mean, we have our refineries working gradually and we can begin to remove subsidies. Well, thank you so much, Mohamed. Mohamed Abdul-Lahi, Public Relations Analyst has joined us from Kaduna State. You took a look at this, over $13 trillion spent on subsidy payment in 16 years as revealed by this very current administration on Monday. Thank you again, Mohamed. Yeah, so it is, it's been the Wednesday edition of the breakfast and just before we go, let's give you the quote of the day. It's not stress that kills us. It is our reaction to it. And that's according to Hans Salier. I am Mohamed, I hope that you have a very splendid day this Wednesday. Join us tomorrow for another episode. Goodbye.