 We would like to welcome everyone to the United States Institute of Peace. My name is Elise Grande. I'm the President of USIP, which was established by the U.S. Congress in 1984 as a public institution dedicated to preventing, mitigating, and helping to resolve violent conflict abroad. We're very honored today at USIP to host an important conversation on the legal efforts underway to protect Ukrainian sovereignty and hold perpetrators accountable for the crimes that have been committed during Russia's unprovoked, unjustified war of aggression in Ukraine. During which civilians have been killed and targeted, schools, hospitals, malls have been bombed, and civilians have been forcibly transferred to Russian territories, executed, held captive, and subjected to sexual violence by Russian forces. The timing of our discussion today is not coincidental. Today is Ukrainian Constitution Day, which commemorates the moment when Ukraine formalized its status as a sovereign, independent, and democratic nation deserving of the same protection, including from aggression as all other countries in the world. USIP is most particularly honored to mark this occasion with the Ukrainian ambassador to the United States, Her Excellency Aksana Makavora, who has served in her current role as ambassador to the United States since 2021, having previously served as Ukraine's Minister of Finance from 2018 to 2020. The ambassador has played an exceptional role during this crisis, educating US lawmakers and the US public on the crimes being committed and mobilizing widespread support to hold people accountable for these. I hope everyone joins me in paying tribute to the ambassador's leadership. Madam Ambassador. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Lisa. And thank you to the Institute of Peace. You have been such an unbelievable partner in this new initiative, which is not new because justice is something that Ukraine always needed, but it became important, even more important during the 125 days that we are living now. And this is not the first and definitely not the last event that we are doing together. And we look forward, having your institute as one of the main platforms to discuss these issues, to find solutions, because they are important not only for Ukraine, but for everyone who believes in justice. Again, I'm very glad to be here with my colleagues, with the Institute of Peace, but also with our General Prosecutor Irina Venediktova, who will be with us. Dear ambassadors, Beth Van Schaak and Anton Karinevich, who will be online. And Councillor Ellie Rosenbaum, what a great team of people to discuss these issues today. 26 years ago, as Lisa just said, after 24 hours of non-stop deliberations, Ukraine adopted its constitution. It has been a great day in Ukraine's history when just a couple of years after regaining our independence, after hundreds of years of occupation by the Soviet Union and Russian Empire before that, we received our main document, the main law that governed us. I'm very pleased that with us today, we have Judge Futey, who has been an instrumental member of the team that worked on the Constitution. And I was privileged to work for IFAS those days, and alongside was Judge to work with the lawmakers and the parliament on this very important document. So I would like to congratulate everyone on Ukraine's Constitution Day. Very important, yes, we are a young country in the modern days, but we have a very long tradition of constitutionalism. And the Ukrainian Constitution of Pulip Orelik, which was adopted in 1710, was one of the first European constitutions, was one of the first, actually, world constitutions, which laid foundation for separation of power, which laid foundation for the rights of the people and, like Constitution of the United States, also had a human life and the human rights as the main objective for the state to guard, protect, and support. Today the Russia continues the unprovoked aggression. And again, after eight years of war, 125 days ago, the full-scaled war returned to Ukraine everywhere. With this war, Ukraine not only attacked our homes, not only killed our people, but our political, economic, social, and all the rights, including the religious rights and cultural rights, are under attack. So this war is not just attack on the territory. The bombs that hit our schools and destroy our hospitals are not only doing the damage that you see on TV, but they also deny our children's right to education and deny our right for free health care provided in our Constitution. The bombs that damaged churches and museums attack a very constitutional right, cultural and religious right, which also our Constitution protects. The ballistic missiles that hit residential areas affect another right provided to us by the Constitution. They deprive thousands of Ukrainians from their rights to housing. It's barbaric attack on nuclear plants. Again, you can find in our Constitution the right to save environment, and that right has been denied by Russians by attacking so many not only nuclear plants, but other potential hazardous sites. So as the list of the constitutional rights so brutally abused now by Russians, we also understand that this is much bigger than just a war on a sovereign country. The legal community must consolidate the efforts to give this issue the highest attention, and we are very glad that we have the legal community working with us on all these different issues and not only qualifying and discussing that what happens to us is a genocide, but also that, you know, this destruction and just want to remind you that during the 125 days that more than 150 schools have been completely wiped out in Ukraine. More than 300 hospitals have been eliminated, and when I say that it's not just a couple of doors and windows, it's the whole hospital is gone. More than now together, you know, a dozen of millions of civilians either had to flee the country or internally displaced people, and in addition to this 12 million Ukrainians who are displaced either inside or outside, more than 10 million constantly leave under threat. The Russian troops not only attack us and destroy and kill, they also commit war crimes everywhere in Ukraine, and we all know what happened in Buche and Darpin and Borodyanke and other places which we were able to liberate. We can only guess and pray for the safety of people who are now under occupation in Kherson, Mariupol, and many, many other places. More than 20% of Ukrainian territory is illegally held by Russia at the moment. So we all understand that the first priority, of course, to win. That's why we are very grateful to President Biden, to administration, to Congress on a bipartisan basis, to all Americans, actually, for this strong solidarity and support, and for providing us with so much needed support in defense, with weapons, with financial, economic support, but also sanctions. And today is one of the great days when both Department of State, not both, three of them, Department of State, Commerce Department and Treasury announced the new wave of sanctions. Very strong ones against a number of companies and individuals. So definitely, we need that to be expanded. We need much more. We are grateful for what we have received because we need to win. But equally important for us is to our pursuit of justice. Because not only we have to win, but we together, collectively, have to ensure that this does not happen again. And it sends the message that everyone who does that in the 21st century will not only be stopped, but also be brought to justice. That's why, and we will discuss it today, and we hear from our speakers, we are doing everything on that front. From the International Court of Justice to International Court, the European Court of Human Rights to International Criminal Court to individual criminal investigations inside the country, outside. There should be no place on our planet where these war criminals will go unpunished. Now, I would like to also say that we are very grateful to know and see all these initiatives from the Joint Investigation Team to Atrocity Crimes Advisory Group to now the War Crimes Accountability Team just announced recently when the Attorney General visited Ukraine and met with our Prosecutor General. And I think all of this together will create an infrastructure. And sometimes it's going to be a new infrastructure. And maybe this is the time, as we discussed last time, it's a start of the reform of those institutions that failed to react 125 days ago. And we together are creating something that will only react to this war in Ukraine, but also be a safeguard for the future. And I would like to finish with a quote by a famous guy, Albert Einstein, who we all know for other reasons, but who also has been one of the most strong defenders of the human rights in the face of Nazi aggression, who said, the strengths of the Constitution lies entirely in the determination of each citizen to defend it. This is what we do these days. We, all Ukrainians, all 40 million of us are defending our Constitution on the battlefield here in Washington DC, everywhere else, together with all of our strategic friends and allies. And we will defend our Constitution. It will continue to govern life in Ukraine everywhere, including in Donetsk and Lugansk and in Crimea. And we will win together. Thank you very much. And I look forward to this wonderful discussion. We're very pleased to introduce our distinguished panelists for today, starting first with her Excellency, Irina Venetiktova, who is online with us. Irina is the Prosecutor General of Ukraine. She was the first female to occupy her position prior to becoming the Prosecutor General. She served as the Acting Director for the State Bureau of Investigation, and she was the first woman in that capacity in Ukrainian history to chair a government law enforcement agency. Madam Venetiktova has served as a professor at Kharkiv National University as an arbitrator of the International Commercial Arbitration Court, a member of the Scientific Advisory Board at the Supreme Court of Ukraine and as a member of the Ukrainian Bar Association. Excellency, you are very welcome. We're also pleased to introduce Ambassador Anton Kordnevich. He is the Ambassador at Large with the Ukrainian Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Agent of Ukraine before the International Court of Justice in the Allegations of Genocide case. The ambassador served as the permanent representative of the President of Ukraine in the Autonomous Republic of Crimea and is a specialist in international law, international criminal law, and international energy law. You are most welcome. We're delighted to welcome Ambassador Beth Vanshok. She is the Ambassador at Large for Global Criminal Justice at the US Department of State. The ambassador plays the critical role of advising the Secretary of State on issues related to the prevention of and response to atrocity crimes, including war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide. Ambassador, you're very welcome. We're also delighted, honored, to welcome Dr. Ely Rosenbaum, the Director of Human Rights Enforcement Strategy and Policy in the US Department of Justice. Earlier this month, Dr. Rosenbaum was appointed by Attorney General Merrick Garland to serve concurrently as Counselor for War Crimes Accountability. In his role as the Director of the Office of Special Investigations, Dr. Rosenbaum has been responsible for two decades for identifying, investigating, and taking legal action against Nazi criminals. Dr., you are very welcome. We'd like to thank everyone for joining us today. For our online audience, we hope you join the discussion using the chat box on the event page. The event hashtag is at Ukraine USIP. We would like to begin our first question with the Prosecutor General. Madam Prosecutor, in your role, you have been leading efforts to investigate and prosecute crimes committed against civilians during the Russian invasion. All of us are very interested in knowing the major challenges that you have faced and that you are facing. Good afternoon, dear Madam President. Thank you very much for so good work. For me, it's actually so honor and pleasure to be on this platform. And I was happy to hear that I was a university professor actually because all these days in the war, you're living absolutely as a liar. Your excellency, ladies and gentlemen, and I can say like this, our dear friends. It's a great pleasure to be, even though in a virtual format with you today and to discuss our common efforts and existence avenues for folding accountable perpetrators of international crimes that have been committed in Ukraine and the best way to deliver and justice for victims. All of these is, of course, effective investigation. As the answer, however, I wish to congratulate all Ukrainians with the day of our institution. Constitution is not only the supreme law of the country, it's also the protector of the independence, liberty, and human rights. The very notions for which Ukrainians are fighting already for 125 days and which Russian policies and forces are attempting to deprive us of. At the very beginning of the armed conflict, I said that it is my personal mission to ensure that no one is held unaccountable for their actions in Ukraine. We are working extremely hard to fulfill this promise. And our work is multifaceted. Law enforcement agencies of Ukraine are taking extra steps to timely document crimes, collect and analyze evidences, and consequently identify and prostitute perpetrators in line with international standards and best practice. This is so, since we understand that even though we work with the international community and the international criminal courts, hand in hand, the bulk of investigation and the largest numbers of prosecutions will be done by Ukraine itself. Simultaneously, we are receiving unprecedented international support to enhance investigation and prosecution into four international crimes. Significant number of states are sitting in the office of the Prosecutor General in different directions, be it with expert assistance, including forensic assistance, identification and documentation of crimes or support with protective equipment. Finally, with all our foreign friends and especially I would like to underline the immeasurable support of the United States, we have established several international efforts to seek justice for war crimes, crimes against humanity and other crimes. Before going into the detail of our investigations and prosecutions, I would like to emphasize one point. Today, Ukraine together with the whole civilized world is fighting for a stable, democratic and prosperous future. We are fighting against unconciliated attempts to target kill and terrorize civilian populations. What we have been seeing throughout the last four months from the Russian side is nothing else but a well-thought-out whole pair tactic of terror and theft. Started from the very first day, the Russian armed forces are in different places with civilian and civilian objects, such as hospitals, schools and other civilian extracts. Only within the last 24 hours, Russia has shot Kharkiv as a result of which seven civilians died and 26 injured. They also hit the city of Litichank where eight civilians died and 20 injured. 11 rockets were also fired at Mikolayev and as a result of Shelling of Pachay, the Mikolayev region, three civilians died and six injured, including children. And right on the end of the road, when people were harrowing in the supermarket, Russia committed yet another act of terror in lunch and restyles into a shopping mall in the city of Crimeanchuk, Voltava region. A number of casualties is still being determined as the people are still under rubble. You saw this notification about at least 18 persons died, more than 50 injured and over 36 persons were missing. And all these only one day, you might ask, why Russia resorts to such war for policies that blatantly run contrary to international law and the rules of means and methods of warfare? My answer is that this is done to subjugate Ukrainian people and consequently erase Ukrainian identity. Kremlin wishes for Ukrainians to be afraid to identify themselves as such. This is how they attempt to defeat Ukrainians independence and identity. But what these four months of work has shown is that the actions are in vain. Now more than ever, Ukraine is consolidated. Yes, so we are tired, I saw my amazing investor. She is beautiful, but she is tired. You see me now. I'm tired, but I'm so motivated to do everything that all the world with Ukraine will win in this war as fast as possible. Now to put Russian actions into perspective, since 24 February 2022, as a result of widespread and systematic targeting of civilian population and civilian objects in violation of norms and principles of international humanitarian law, close to 6,000 civilians, including more than 300 children have died and over 6,800 civilians were injured. This means that nearly three children die daily in Ukraine. Moreover, Russia deliberately targets the Ukrainians critical infrastructure, objects of energy transport, industrial and social infrastructure. Now this is done on one hand to solve fear, create a sense of uninhabitable living conditions and exacerbate already difficult humanitarian situation. And on the other hand, to cause more economic and financial damage to Ukraine and make post-war reconstruction of the country completely and more unattractive. As a result of war, you have the statistics from Ukrainian ambassador, from our ambassador. I want to say this figures again, because they are huge and it's actually a big threat for future being. Now as a result of war, near 25 some of the objects of civilian infrastructure have been targeted and majority of them destroyed. As you see from these statistics, we have a quite heavy case load. To date, we have already documented and investigated more than 20,000 instances of war crimes. This includes attacks of civilians and civilian objects, deliberate murder, facts of ill treatment and unlawful deprivation of liberty, cases of rape and other forms of sexual violence, pillages and so on. At this stage, on average, we daily documented and large investigation 100, 200, 300 incidents of war crimes. Within the framework of these proceedings, over 120 individuals have been reported as suspects. 15, only 15 of them are in Ukrainian captivity as prisoners of war, while the rest are as much. 10 individuals have been indicted and we already have six convictions. Two individuals perform indiscriminate and shouting. One officer for willful killing and three representatives of Russian forces for pillage. We also have stamped a long criminal precedent in so-called anchor case into the crime of aggression as well as the pretrial investigation in the crime of genocide. I have said this on many occasions that investigations of four international crimes is legally and evidentially complex, requiring the engagement of a wide range of experts with the multiple areas of knowledge. Therefore, this is a challenge for all prosecutors and investigators, especially in circumstances where the intensity and the geographical scope of crimes are growing. Some of the hardships that we face down this path are following. First and the foremost is the inability to access to occupied territory. We simply do not have any possibilities to enter territories under Russian control and access the situation and document crimes. For instance, we are unable to get into Mariupol and document masquerade over the two places that are still going on there. This is one of the 21st century's worst war crimes. We are even unable to determine the death toll while Russia methodically takes measures to erase any evidences of crimes committed. Second, Russia attempts to make Ukraine unsafe place, a place that is under constant and continuous threat sending a message that there is no safe place in Ukraine. This heavily influences both the land population and law enforcement. Prosecutors and investigators are forced to walk in dangerous circumstances, often under the marriages or fire or trying to locate and avoid booby traps. This is also connected to the challenges of identifying and locating victims and witnesses, many of whom because of these gloom and threat have relocated to a safer place within or outside Ukraine. We have also observed unwillingness of hesitations on behalf of victims or their families to cooperate with law enforcement authority. This is also a multifaceted problem. On the one hand, civilians are portions to assist and walk without the fear possible repression from the Russian side. On the other hand, especially in sexual violence related cases, there is a fear of revictimization if a victim will come forward. This obviously significantly interferes with our capacity to document and investigate crimes. Finally, of course, there is an issue of identifying perpetrators and bringing them to justice, which is a complex problem. We, however, are not intimidated with these challenges. Challenges are there to overcome them. And with the assistance of our international partners, we are step-by-step and hand-in-hand commanding them. One message that we all agree upon is that the democratic vote or the candidate are habitated with the cynical and barbaric policies targeting peaceful civilians. We should not be afraid of going to a supermarket after a walk or visiting friends and family in other cities. Human kind walked hard after the second institution and mechanisms to respond to atrocities. Now it is our turn to use them effectively. Madam Prosecutor General, thank you for sharing with us the extraordinary initiatives and lines of effort that have been underway under your leadership to identify the perpetrators of war crimes and crimes against humanity and to hold them accountable. Madam Prosecutor General, we're aware that at least 18,000 separate cases of war crimes have been registered with your office. When you look at that huge number, how are you and your team going to prioritize those cases? What is the methodology that you'll be using to decide of the 18,000, which are the ones that need to be prosecuted first and with the most attention? Unfortunately, 18,000 were two days ago. Now more than 20,000. And again, it will be higher and higher. Of course, we should prioritize the case. We understand, for example, what we have now in that territory, which we start, it's our obligation. It's our obligation to start investigation even if we don't have now possibilities to do investigation effectively. But who knows, maybe tomorrow or after tomorrow, we will have this tax. Well, in areas that we can enter and work, we are doing this, notwithstanding the risk. Unfortunately, we have lost our colleagues in this war and several of them were injured during implementing their function. However, areas we haven't relocated our offices to safe settings. In areas where there are active hostages, we have a strong coordination with military and obtain information and react adequately. We also work with open source information. We have set up a separate team of all the 50 prosecutors to document evidences of work crimes available in open sources in line with international standards of evidence collection. So that such evidence is admissible before domestic and international institutions. In addition, the Office of the Prosecutor General in cooperation with partners had created a platform, warcrimes.gov.ua. It is an evidence hub where information on violence of international humanitarian law is collected. It enables everyone in an easy and safe manner according to a simple and clear algorithm to report alleged war crimes and violations of international humanitarian law through all these resources. So this is an additional mechanism to identify concrete violations. What we have in Ukraine, we have here three approaches, war crimes, crimes of aggression. It's more than 20 cases actually for today. We have our anchor case where we have more than 600 suspects. And another one is genocide. We are doing everything to be successful in this approach. If we speak about war crimes, we interviewed all victims whom we have. For example, from first days of war, we had our prosecutors on the border and our refugees were interviewed in the framework of criminal cases to have them status of victims in the criminal case. And from other side, it's very important for them right to have civilian confiscation. You know, we created Task Force and we have done it with USA partners in the framework of klepto-character. Then we interview people who came back after exchanging. We interviewed people who were evacuated. We have a huge massive of interceptions to satellite images. And of course, when we have this huge massive of everything, we should understand in which cases we will be successful in the nearest future. Because again, we should do everything to avoid multiple interviewing of people. For example, do everything to avoid retraumatization of people. But what we have done in the key region after the occupation, we had square in whole key region in different cities was absolutely different approaches. Now we have this methodology. And what we have today in Krimichuk. Actually, we have done the same. We have done, we use our methodology. We had investigators from security service from national police, different experts from Ministry of Justice and forensic experts. Our experts from ACA, experts of international humanitarian law when George was with his team in Krimichuk on the land. And it was very important for me and for prosecutors. We had prosecutors from region and we had prosecutors from special department of law and we have people from our military board. We created military board on the platform of the Office of Prosecutor General. Actually it is 12 people, they are military. And today on Krimichuk, we have the military experts in this file. And when we have such complicated, such complex teams, it's very important for us because for example, this Krimichuk case, we can use this case in our national jurisdiction if we speak about war crimes, if we speak about genocide because if we took full pattern, full pictures of war crimes inside the country, it could be genocide. I'm sure just question of time. And then if international criminal court decided to take this case, if prosecutor of international criminal court decided to take this case as the case crime against humanity, it will be good possibilities for this team too because we have done everything under these standards of international humanitarian law. That's why this is our methodology. All cases are absolutely different. All these 20,000 cases, they're separate, they're different. And in one case, we have one case and others we have hundreds of those actually. They are absolutely different. But again, it is question of time, accountability, justice, it's extremely important. And Ukrainian law enforcement agencies, Ukrainian government, Ukrainian parliament, and you saw every day Ukrainian leader, President Zelensky, we will do everything that this process will be successful in the end. Madam prosecutor general, thank you for walking us through the extraordinary steps that you are taking in your office is taking. It's very striking that you are doing this even as your country is fighting for its very survival. If you allow, we would like to turn to Ambassador Beth Vanskak. Ambassador, many people have been watching the atrocity crimes advisory group and the conflict observatory as they work to support Ukrainian officials, including the prosecutor general in their efforts to take the lead in holding the perpetrators of war crimes accountable. Where do these efforts stand now? Yeah, terrific. Thanks so much for that question. Thank you all for being here and for organizing this important event. And it's lovely to see our Ukrainian friends here on the screen. I was just visiting with the prosecutor general. Eli was there with the attorney general and attorney general America and I had a chance to sit down with her privately for a moment. And she outlined many of the challenges she's facing, but also the fact that these challenges are meant to be overcome. And it's really an honor, I think, for me and my office. And I know Eli feels the same to be a part of trying to assist with that. So the main effort that my office, the Office of Global Criminal Justice, has been working on is called the Atrocity Crimes Advisory Group. And this was a project that predated Russia's full scale launch of its invasion in February. The idea was to place experts with the prosecutor general's office to assist with ongoing war crimes cases. At the time, these were emerging out of the Donbass and out of Crimea. And it was a rather modest project run by a predecessor of mine, Ambassador Clint Williamson, who has a long history in working with international criminal tribunals. I worked with him. My first job as a lawyer was at the Yugoslavia War Crimes Tribunal. And he was one of the more senior lawyers there. So it's been amazing to see how his career has evolved over the years. Of course, with the relaunch of the invasion, this project had to scale. And so under the direction of the prosecutor general and with her assistance, we have reached out to other donor community members. And so the European Union now and the United Kingdom have both invested in this project. And the new European Democracy Resilience Initiative of President Biden has given us additional funding. So the idea is to essentially embed experts in international criminal law investigations, including the investigation of war crimes and crimes against humanity, other international crimes, with the prosecutor general in her headquarters. And then also Wayne Jordash, who was mentioned, will be forming what are called mobile justice teams. And these individuals will be interdisciplinary experts as well, veterans of the war crimes, efforts around the world, to then be deployed out into the field. And so the mention was made of this horrific attack against the shopping mall. One of the mobile justice teams was there on the first day after it happened, working with the investigators, national police, and others under the prosecutor general's direction to collect evidence to a criminal law standard, preserve that evidence, and make it available for any future accountability processes that will happen. This now with funding from this EDRI initiative will enable us to have some real longevity with this project over many years because this is going to be an enormous challenge. Obviously the prosecutor general outlined this, the entire country is now essentially a crime scene. There will be cases to be done for many years with the courts in Ukraine being the first line of attack, but then the international criminal court, and then also potentially courts within Europe if Russian perpetrators begin to travel, which we know they always do. And we saw with the Pinochet case years later, right? Charges exist, there is no statute of limitations for war crimes, and so charges can be brought in any court where they have the ability to exercise universal jurisdiction over international crimes. The conflict observatory is also a new exciting initiative, something that we have done on a smaller scale with respect to the conflict in Syria, but now really going in much more full force. This is our conflict and stabilization organization, has created what will be an online platform for collecting open source information, often information that is difficult to get access to because it is behind a payroll wall or you require some sort of a subscription to have it. So we will be collecting information from satellite imagery, from scrubbing Twitter feeds, all the journalistic work that's being done, human rights organizations, et cetera, aggregating that together, and then producing refined analysis to show the patterns and practices. So some of the first reports that will be generated by this conflict observatory will involve attacks on hospitals and other medical facilities, as the prosecutor general mentioned, there have been dozens and dozens of these. In addition, attacks on educational institutions and attacks on cultural elements of the cultural heritage, which is part of this effort to erase the Ukrainian culture. And so the conflict observatory will make all of this refined analytical product available to prosecutors around the world, including the prosecutor general's team, but also the international criminal court. Ambassador, earlier you and I were talking about the remarkable efforts to support Ukrainian leadership as they try and hold perpetrators accountable. In your experience and your opinion, are there things that the US could be doing more of in this regard? You've talked about some of the important initiatives underway. What more would you like to see this administration, your office do? Well, as you know, this administration has been incredibly devoted to strengthening Ukraine's hand with respect to this conflict when it comes to security assistance, the whole raft of sanctions and additional new sanctions coming out today, all of this support for accountability, and then also one of the largest, if not the largest humanitarian donor. And we met when we were in the region with UNHCR and other entities that are providing that essential humanitarian assistance to individuals who are suffering under the war. And as we know, the epicenter of the suffering is, of course, Ukraine, but Russia's invasion has created a whole series of deleterious reverberations around the globe when it comes to food security, the economy, the global economy, et cetera. And so it's really a global issue. When it comes on the accountability front, the US is supporting all international investigations that are underway. Ukraine, I think, has been incredibly strategic and effective in using lawfare as part of its efforts to repel the efforts by Russia to subjugate Ukraine. And so the United States is supportive of cases before the International Court of Justice under the Genocide Convention, the European Court of Human Rights, earlier cases that predated the current invasion. Also, we've welcomed the opening of the investigation by the ICC prosecutor. The prosecutor has been here in Washington. We had him meet with our Ukraine team to be able to be synced up there. And then I've recently been in the Hague meeting with him as well, finding more of what we can do. He's issued a note verbal with some very specific requests from states to assist him with his investigations. A whole number of our friends and allies have been able to deploy experts to the region and I know DOJ is considering what more can be done in this regard as well. So I think we're actually being quite forward-leaning when it comes to finding ways to assist with the accountability front and particularly noting that it's the prosecutor general who really has the lead here. She is the legally constituted entity. She has a war crimes unit. She has jurisdiction. Her laws exist. There are some legal reforms that are being considered that would expand the ability to prosecute war crimes and crimes against humanity, but she can also work in partnership with the International Criminal Court. And so this is very much complementarity in action. International courts working in partnership with domestic courts. Ambassador, in other occasions where we've had the chance to be with you, we've talked about the web that's being created through national efforts, through support from member states like the US, like European allies, through the International Criminal Court, through the ICJ, this dense web all aimed at holding the perpetrators accountable so that if you break the rules-based international order, there will be consequences for that. When we last spoke together about this web, it was being formed. It was being shaped. Do you have confidence that that web can now catch the perpetrators? We have never seen the international community as united as we are since the Nuremberg era and then again in the 1990s, when the Cold War ended and Russia was once again able to participate in the project, the rules-based international order and the project of international justice, which led to the creation of the Yugoslavia and Rwanda Tribunal and a whole series of other international and hybrid tribunals. So we're at another one of those moments where we see this incredible consensus. So we have joint investigation teams initiated by Ukraine, now joined by a number of European states. We have the Eurojust Genocide Network working together, meeting regularly, focused on Ukraine to ensure that prosecutors around the globe are able to share information in a frictionless way. And the states of the world have increasingly incorporated into their domestic codes international crimes and subjected them to universal jurisdiction so they can bring criminal charges against individuals when they fall within their jurisdictional reach regardless of whether there's any nexus to those particular states. And so once perpetrators start to travel, they can be caught anywhere. Now, that implies that perpetrators travel. So Ukraine can exercise in absentia jurisdiction and some states can do so as well, but not all states can. We cannot, for example, nor can the international criminal court. So it will be incumbent upon these courts to gain custody over the accused. But we know that the justice is long and we often say that justice delayed is justice denied, but when it comes to international criminal justice, that's not how it works. Sometimes time is on our side. People become complacent. They think the world has moved on. They think people have forgotten. We will not forget. These case files will be in existence. And the minute someone moves into the jurisdictional reach of a court, they can be, that jurisdictional reach can be activated and cases can be brought. Ambassador, that's a wonderful segue into our questions to Dr. Rosenbaum who for decades has been part of an effort to hold Nazi war criminals accountable for the crimes that they committed 75 years ago. Dr. Rosenbaum, what kinds of support now is the Department of Justice here in the United States providing to Ukrainian officials through the war crimes accountability team that we've been discussing? Thank you, Lisa. It's a privilege to be here. I should say I did, of course, cut my teeth, so to speak, on the Nazi cases, but I and my colleagues have been working on cases involving post-war conflicts also now for decades. Exactly a week ago, hard to believe, I had the privilege of being part of a Justice Department delegation to Ukraine led by Attorney General Garland. Ambassador Vanskak, as she said, well, she didn't say this part, a longtime hero of mine. I've said that to a lot of people. I haven't said it in front of you in a public audience, but I say it now was with us. Feeling is mutual. Thank you. Except you weren't it. Anyway, we met with Prosecutor General Venediktava and senior officials of her office to discuss additional U.S. actions to help Ukraine identify, apprehend, and prosecute those involved in war crimes and other atrocities in Ukraine. The world has seen many, many shocking images of the killings and devastation inflicted by Russia in the course of its illegal and unprovoked war of aggression. And it was an unforgettable and deeply inspiring experience to be, Madam Ambassador, in your country while your people are displaying extraordinary courage every minute of every day in fighting for freedom and for your country's territorial integrity. I will never forget it. The Justice Department has been following with admiration as well, Ukraine's efforts under Prosecutor General Venediktava's leadership to ensure that the perpetrators and facilitators of this unjust war are held accountable. And we at the Department of Justice will stand by her office to the fullest extent possible. We will continue to inventory our own capabilities and determine where we might best collaborate with other parts of the U.S. government to provide Ukraine with additional capabilities or funding. And we will coordinate closely with other investigative and support efforts, including those undertaken by authorities in the EU, such as the Joint Investigative Team, and of course, the work of the Atrocity Crimes Advisory Group. Efforts to document, investigate, and we prosecutors never give up this fantasy, deter war crimes in Ukraine are underway on an unprecedented scale. And they are expanding. We at DOJ will continue to be part of those efforts. During our visit to Ukraine, the Attorney General announced the creation of the Department's War Crimes Accountability Team to centralize and strengthen DOJ's accountability efforts, including via our own ongoing investigations, all of this in the wake of Russia's invasion. This initiative, which is part of a surge in federal law enforcement resources that the AG has directed be applied in response to the invasion of Ukraine will provide wide-ranging technical assistance, including, and there's some overlap with the ACA on this, operational assistance and advice regarding criminal prosecutions, evidence collection, forensics, and relevant legal advice. We will continue to work closely with the Office of the Prosecutor General to adapt to her office's changing needs as the conflict continues to evolve. This particular Justice Department initiative builds on the work that my agency has been doing with Ukraine and other partners to counter Russian illicit financing and sanctions evasion. The recent seizures of super yachts through the work of the DOJ-led Interagency Task Force kleptocapture, work that we do alongside our global partners, understandably garner headlines. I get it, but there is much more, much more going on behind the scenes as we continue to use all available resources and employ cutting-edge investigative techniques to hold accountable individuals whose criminal actions are enabling Russia's unjust and cruel war against Ukraine. So we have a clear and simple message for anyone who would even consider participating in the commission of war crimes and other grave offenses in Ukraine. One word, don't. In particular, and this sort of picks up on what Ambassador Renskak was saying, we suggest to those people that they ought to pause to consider the many instances in which months, years, even decades after the crimes were committed, the U.S. and other nations have gained custody of the offenders, such as when persons have made the mistake of visiting countries with which the charging nations have extradition treaties in force. In my agency's World War II Nazi prosecutions, we have pursued the offenders literally more than, Lisa, as you said, more than seven decades after the crimes were committed. We've pursued them where necessary into old age and we won a court case just two years ago. I helped try it myself. I never thought that would happen in 2020. We won a court case against one such person in a Memphis courtroom just two years ago. So no one who participates in atrocity crimes in Ukraine will ever be able to stop looking over their shoulder no matter where they go, wondering whether their criminal past has finally caught up with them. As Attorney General Garland succinctly and powerfully put it, there is no hiding place for war criminals. If I could just add a personal reflection, that's usually dangerous, but I started in 1980 at a law school working on prosecuting, investigating and prosecuting people who colloquially are called Nazi war criminals, but atrocity and persecution crimes. And from my earliest days as a baby prosecutor, a lot of the cases that we investigate that I even worked on involved Russian and Ukrainian victims. Now we had perpetrators who were Ukrainian, Russian and even a Jewish man, but for the most part it was the victims. In these settings, for instance, in the Nazi camps, Russians and Ukrainians were victims together. And often they were prisoners of war. They had fought the Nazis together. Their comrades had died and ultimately many of these people died in the camps. One of the first cases that I ever had, it ended up being one of our highest profile cases, involved prisoners who were forced to work on the German V-2 missile program at Penemunde and then most notoriously at an underground V-2 rocket factory that was part of the Buchwald-Nordhausen system. And that was back in 83, 84. That place had Russian and Ukrainian victims in significant numbers and actually very few Jews, relatively speaking. In our World War II investigations, Russia, starting with when it was part of the Soviet Union, Ukraine as well, and then post-Soviet Russia and post-Soviet Ukraine were partners in our work to achieve a measure of justice on behalf of all the victims of the Nazis, especially by giving us access to their archives. In fact, for anyone who might be watching in Russia, read the history of it. My colleagues and I were constantly criticized for collaborating with Moscow in these cases, but it was the right thing to do. We followed the evidentiary trail where it led and we vindicated the rights, alas, often posthumously, of Russian victims and Ukrainian victims. But now the inconceivable has happened. One of those victimized countries, Russia, has assaulted another victimized country. Two countries that were invaded by the Nazis, one is now attacking the other. And honestly, when I hear the president of the Russian Federation referred to Ukraine as Nazis, it's like fingers on the chalkboard for me, only a lot worse. Everybody knows who's channeling the Nazis in waging an aggressive war and committing atrocities. And Madam Ambassador, it's not your country. The world knows that. To me, in a sense, this is all encapsulated in the case of one Ukrainian victim. And I know you're familiar with the case, Boris Romanchenko. He was a survivor of the V-2 missile factory at Nordhausen. He became one of the officers of the, I believe it was the Buchenwald survivors group, rapidly dwindling population. And in March of this year, at the age of 96, sitting in his apartment in Kharkiv, he was killed by a Russian strike. None of this should be happening. It needs to stop, it needs to stop. Thank you. Dr. Rosenbaum, thank you. Thank you. Can you see a situation where the U.S. might decide to try and prosecute Russian officials or soldiers who come here to the U.S. that have been implicated in a war crime? Can you see that happening? This new war crimes accountability team that the Attorney General set up is gonna play, is playing an integral role in the department's ongoing investigations of potential war crimes over which the U.S. has jurisdiction, such as in the killing and wounding of U.S. journalists who've been covering Russia's invasion. Our war crimes statute confers jurisdiction when the person committing the war crime or a victim of the war crime is a member of the U.S. Armed Forces or is a national of our country. And there are countless examples under other federal statutes of the Justice Department gaining custody of foreign nationals, including Russians and also including Ukrainians, either because they visited the United States foolishly or they immigrated here even more foolishly or because they visited a country with which the United States has an extradition treaty. A recent example is the case of Yevgeny Alexandrovich Nikulin of Moscow. It's not of Moscow at the moment, as I'll explain, who was charged with hacking in 2012 into Dropbox, LinkedIn, and another social networking company in the United States. Nikulin was arrested, pursuant to an Interpol red notice while traveling in the Czech Republic. I guess he thought he'd be safe there. No, back in 2016, and he was extradited by the Czech Republic to face trial here in 2018. And in 2020, he was sentenced in San Francisco to over seven years in prison. And that's why he's not of Moscow at the moment. I should note one last thing that we don't have what's called present in jurisdiction under our war crime statute. So as we experienced, alas, in the Nazi cases, if war criminals come here, we don't have jurisdiction under the federal war crime statute. And in the Nazi cases, we had to use other statutory mechanisms to secure a measure of justice. So denaturalization, that is citizenship revocation in federal court and then deportation or sometimes extradition, even without a denaturalization. But bipartisan legislation was recently introduced by Senators Grassley, Durbin, Graham, and Leahy, the Justice for Victims of War Crimes Act. I imagine inspired by the terrible suffering that we're all seeing in Ukraine. And that bill, if enacted, would close that gap. And it would also, in effect, eliminate the statute of limitations on prosecuting war crimes cases. And we have this mantra at all the federal agencies. We look forward to working with the Congress always on legislation. Thank you. Thank you. May we ask, is Ambassador Konovic with us? Yeah. Ambassador, we're delighted that you're with us today. We know that your focus has been on the creation of a special tribunal, looking specifically at the crime of aggression. We'd like you to update us on where these efforts stand and which challenges you foresee as you continue to pursue this important option. Your Excellencies, dear colleagues, I hope you might hear me well. Greetings from the evening Kiev. And while we are talking here with you, it's another air raid here in Kiev. So a lot of people are, I think, I hope in the shelters. And you know that these air attacks on all our cities and all our regions are really, I'm sure of that, our systematic war crimes committed by the Russian officials. And the things which we see and which we saw, for instance, yesterday in Kremlin Chuk, of course, attacking the mall is really the most horrific mass atrocity crimes that one could even imagine. And I would say that it's really a big challenge for us and a big task for us now to find the right answers or to try to find the right answers together with our international partners to have the legal response, the appropriate and relevant legal response to all the violations of international law, which we see are done by the Russian Federation. I'm sure the biggest violator of international law in the 21st century. Concerning our case in ICJ, I will just maybe in the reaction to the things which were said concerning the allegations of genocide case in which I have the honor and privilege to represent the government of Ukraine as an agent. I hope that in the recent days, we'll be able to file our memorial on the merits, of course, with the substance of the case and so that we'll be able to pursue this case and we'll be able to go further with this case going on in the International Court of Justice. And of course, intervention, as we always say in practically all the meetings with our international partners, intervention to this case as really genocide at the genocide convention is not the matter of only Ukraine. This is a matter of international community, of course. Now, we do hope to see that we may see interventions from our international partners to this case because really those horrific allegations by Russia of some mythical alleged genocide committed before the 24th of February in Donbas and not only by Ukrainian authorities are just have no legal basis at all, if I may say so. So concerning the second point is, of course, I think that this is a very important notion which was mentioned by Dr. Rosenbaum that it is important to try to fill the gaps because really the gaps appear and the gaps in international law and in particular international criminal justice system, they really are leaving us with less chances of getting justice and getting accountability to responsibility for the mass atrocity crimes. And that is why Ukraine now comes to our international partners with the idea of creation of two international mechanisms which we consider are important for us and for our international partners to get this justice done, to get justice prevailed and to make international legal responsibility really take place. The first mechanism which I'm not going to describe today but I'm sure that there will be other events and I hope that my colleagues from the government of Ukraine will be able to do that is the establishment of the compensation commission for Ukraine, the claims commission for Ukraine. The track which is led by the Minister of Justice of Ukraine and there is a working group established under the decree of the president of Ukraine with the task of creating the claims commission mechanism which would be able to satisfy the claims by the Ukrainian private persons, nationals, private entities which suffered during this horrific aggression of the Russian Federation. And another track which is also designed to fill the gap which now exists in the criminal justice system is the establishment of the special tribunal for the Kremlin for aggression against Ukraine. This is a track which is led by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine and which was actually suggested in the end of February of this year, I would say in different places all together in Kiev on the level of Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the office of the president and in London by leading international legal professionals, professors such as Philip St. Dapoakande and also professionals working in the field in international courts and tribunals like Alex Whiting. And this special tribunal for the Kremlin for aggression against Ukraine, we suggest this option to be deliberated, considered and discussed with our international partners due to the fact that currently there is no international court or tribunal which can bring perpetrators of the Kremlin for aggression against Ukraine through responsibility. ICC, which we really do count on a lot which we consider is an effective and active mechanism of bringing perpetrators of three more mass atrocity crimes or three core crimes that is crime genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes. We of course are very active in cooperating with the ICC. We hope that the investigation of the ICC will be a productive and effective one and will lead to real indictments and arrest warrants, but the ICC currently cannot adjudicate the cases on the crime of aggression against Ukraine. And as we see on practice, it will not be able to do that in the nearest future due to the jurisdictional restrictions set up in the Rome Statute. That is the ratification of the Rome Statute and the Kampala amendments on the crime of aggression or the reference of the situation to the international criminal court by the United Nations Security Council. Ukrainian national courts, which of course, and this is really the very true fact that the Ukrainian courts shall be the most responsibility in relation to adjudicating the cases for the crimes committed by Russians on Ukrainian territory. But Ukrainian national courts will not be able to adjudicate the cases of the Russian high level officials in particular the highest ranked political and military officials due to their immunities in relation to their positions, in relation to their posts. So as of now, we have this gap when neither international courts and tribunals or national courts of Ukraine are able to adjudicate cases on the crime of aggression against Ukraine. That is why we suggest the establishment of a separate international tribunal, special tribunal which would deal specifically only with the crime of aggression against Ukraine, which will not set up precedents for future, which will not be a model for some permanent thing, which will be ad hoc special tribunal which shall bring to responsibility only the perpetrators of only the crime of aggression against Ukraine. As of now, we gathered a good support of this project inside the parliamentary assemblies of international organizations. We have two resolutions in support of the establishment of the special tribunal for the crime of aggression against Ukraine by the parliamentary assembly of the Council of Europe. And I just was in Strasbourg, together as my colleagues having expert meetings there. And I hope that colleagues in Strasbourg really do support this idea of establishment of the tribunal further on the level of the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe and other organs and authorities of the Council of Europe. We also have the adoption of the European Parliament Resolution with very strong, I would say, wording in support of this resolution, in support of the establishment of the special tribunal and with a call for the European Commission to assist and to grant resources for the establishment of the tribunal. We also have the support by the declaration of the parliamentary assembly of NATO standing with Ukraine. And we also have the support in different resolutions of inter-parliamentary Ukraine and other states, parliamentary groups and fractions and parliaments of other states. So with this, we hope that we can move forward with this idea and considering and deliberating discussing it on the governmental level. As of now, we have already prepared and officially submitted the letters by the Foreign Minister, Mitroku Leva, to the Foreign Ministers of Council of Europe and G7 states with kind request to consider and to be ready to discuss the idea of establishment of the special tribunal for the crime of aggression against Ukraine. That is, I mean, this letter is strictly acknowledged as this is one of the priorities for the government of Ukraine. And we really look forward to the reaction of our international partners. We do receive now answers from governments of foreign states. And we are ready to discuss and consider this issue in future. There are already events being held here and there in Europe and also within the UN framework in relation to the discussing this possibility, to discussing this idea. And we are really very much looking forward to the establishment of this tribunal. In relation to the tribunal, we acknowledge that it should work on the basis of the definition of the crime of aggression, which is set forth in Article 8B of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, as we do understand that currently that is the definition of the crime of aggression set forth in the Rome Statute is really the international law contemporary version of the crimes against peace as they were labeled in the Nuremberg and Tokyo International Military Tribunals. And we need to move forward with this direction. Again, I would say we kind of do not want to make it like a precedent or a universal practice. We just want the international mechanism and instrument to be established to tackle and to work and to punish perpetrators of the crime of aggression against Ukraine. The thing, the war, the aggressive war of Russia against Ukraine, which we see now, and we do see this, I mean, every day on a daily basis, is the biggest war in Europe since 1945. We do believe that this is a nice and the proper moment for international law and international community to try to return to having the jurisdiction over the crimes against peace or moderately talking crime of aggression and to bring perpetrators of this crime to justice. The establishment of this special tribunal, I think, will give us a very important opportunity, which is relevant to, in particular, the crime of aggression. That is the possible speed and the velocity of the processes as currently it may be understood that it is easier to work with the crime of aggression. It is easier to prove. It is easier to make indictments. It is, it may be faster to issue arrest warrants in relation to the crime of aggression than if we compare it to the crimes against humanity or the war crimes due to the fact that everything is on the table and due to the fact that all the facts are being documented and are being recognized by the international community in the resolution of international organizations. And it's not so hard to establish this chain of command, which needs to be established when we talk about war crime, for instance, committed in Bucha or in Irpin or in Borodyanca and linking it to the decisions being done in Kremlin or the Ministry of Defense or in any other governmental agency of actually the Russian Federation. So we, I'm sure, will be moving forward with this idea, with this suggestion. I hope that rather soon we will come to our international partners with more specific, I would say, ideas in relation how this tribunal may be established on which basis, on the basis of the agreement with universal organization or with European regional organization or on the basis of the treaty between Ukraine and the coalition of the willing. And this is just to finalize due to the fact that we need to respect the time of the organizers and those speakers, of course. This is one of the priorities for Ukrainian government, for the officers of president, for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and we will be active in promoting this idea with our international partners. Ambassador, thank you for explaining the current state of effort in establishing the tribunal. One thing was very striking in listening to your comments. What, of course, was striking, if you look at previous precedents for special tribunals, in the case of Rwanda, Yugoslavia, Sierra Leone. Those, of course, were all done either under the UN Security Council or the General Assembly. But the path you were charting wasn't that way. You were talking about establishing them in a regional, under regional jurisdiction, in a regional body with the Council of Europe. May we ask why you're moving in that direction? Thank you for a question. I wouldn't say so. I'm sorry if I may sound misunderstanding, but I was saying that we are active in discussing and considering this issue with the Council of Europe because historically, Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe was the first organization which had passed two resolutions in two days in support of the establishment of the tribunal. For instance, today we had a great meeting with the members of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe here in Kiev in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, discussing mainly this issue of the establishment of the special tribunal for the crime of aggression. But this doesn't mean that we are, you know, orientated on only one way or pass. That is to make maybe my sounding very understandable. The possible ways of establishment of this special tribunal, there are several of them. The first is, of course, the establishment of its universal organization, which is UN. And of course, understanding that United Nations Security Council pass is blocked because of the veto of the Russian Federation, we, of course, are considering and discussing with our international partners the ability to move forward through the resolution of the United Nations General Assembly. So this is variant number one, it is on the table. The variant number two is actually the agreement of Ukraine and European regional organization that may be Council of Europe or European Union. Again, European Union, European Parliament has passed a very strong resolution with strong provisions on the establishment of the special tribunal. And the variant number three is actually the treaty, the agreement between Ukraine and the coalition of willing. Either these are states or states and international organizations together. So nothing is, I mean, everything is being discussed and considered. And the UN track, of course, is being deliberated with our international partners. That is to say that the deliberations in the UN and the United Nations framework has just been, I would say, started. There was a round table last week within the UN framework in New York discussing the possibilities of the establishment of the special tribunal. So everything is on the table. And I'm sure that rather soon we'll be able to see which pass may be the most effective and productive one. Ambassador, thank you. And of course, there's something legally powerful and politically very symbolic of the general assembly of which Russia is a member. We're to agree to establish this special tribunal. We wish you the best of luck in your efforts. For our final set of questions, Ambassador, if we may turn to you. As your government looks at reparations and reconstruction, how do you see those efforts in complement to and supportive of all the things we've been discussing today on accountability? Thank you. I think it's very interrelated. Like, of course, as we discussed this, the main goal is to win. The second goal is to get justice. The third goal, which is a motivational goal, is to rebuild Ukraine, build back better, if I can use your president's word, to create something innovative, to create something new, to have the whole place rebuilt. And it would only make sense to rebuild it, not only with the help of our friends and allies, which we would be grateful for, but actually that Russia should pay for it. So that's why I think, you know, that's where the justice together with rebuilding efforts are very much related. And hopefully we will be able, not only through all the initiatives, through the claptor capture and others, not only through great efforts of the U.S. and transatlantic community on seizing the assets, arresting the assets, putting freeze orders on so many, but also to be able to move past that and to confiscate it and to put it into a special fund. And it's all under consideration right now. So we will be working close together with all of our partners to do it. But I think the majority of finances should come from Russia. Russia should pay for the reconstruction of Ukraine. And of course, then we will get together with all the IFIs and all the partners. And already there are so many countries that voiced even which areas of Ukraine they would like to rebuild, which cities they would, because they have ties. I mean, Ukraine is so interrelated, not only with countries in Europe, but as it turned out with many countries globally, and there are so many countries that came forward early on and said not only that they want to help us with it, that they support us, but they would like also to have a special role in the reconstruction. But it has to be just. Ambassador, thank you. We have just a few minutes left. If me may open the floor for any comments, observations or questions. Somebody from the judiciary being involved with these issues and especially when the International Court of Justice at the Hague, you know, we all remember the case that was issued, Bosnia and Herzegovina versus Serbia and Montenegro. What constitute genocide in relations to the genocide convention in Paris in 1948? And the decision was that Serbia was responsible for allowing genocide to take place. What happened with the invasion of the Russian forces in Ukraine? There was also an issue the Russia was saying prior to that that they were invading because Ukraine had committed genocide against the population in areas controlled by the Russians or the separatists. So when the Russian forces invaded, Ukraine filed a case with the International Court of Justice on the 27th of February and the court looked at that and on March 16th issued an opinion. It ordered Russia to suspend the war to stop and also that there was no evidence that Ukraine had committed Jews as genocide. So that was a decision. Well, Russia did not stop and by the way, the International Court of Justice is a court of the United Nations. So Russia did not stop and the United Nations did not implement its decision under the charter of the United Nations. There are ways of implementing decisions of the United Nations. Well, here there is no obedience to the decision and there is no implementation of the decision. So we're talking about delivering justice to Ukraine. Well, here there was an evidence of justice being delivered but it's not implemented by the international community and there is a problem with all of this that we are facing. So by creating a new tribunals, I can see a special tribunal for the prosecution of war crimes crimes against humanity and even genocide in Ukraine because Ukraine will be administering all of these. But when you have the international community cannot implement, so it seems to me that the international organizations, the international system that we have right now, something has to be done. The intent was well done and 78 years ago but it seems right now it's failing and we have to do something. And there is a big problem I think facing not only Ukraine and Europe but the entire world how are we going to handle it? And what Ukraine is doing is a terrific job and everything that they have done. I'm glad what the ambassador has said here and everything else. So I commend what Ukraine is doing but I do have a question how the international community, especially the UN and the present system can implement its own decisions. Thank you for that reflection. May we open the floor for other questions or observations? Since we have come to the end of today's discussion we want to express our deep gratitude to all of the exceptional panel members, Ambassador, Ambassador, Ambassador, Dr. Rosenbaum and to the Prosecutor General. We're very pleased, privileged, to invite Ambassador Bill Taylor who's the Vice President of the USIP and has been part of our broad efforts to find any ways we can to support Ukraine in her hour of need. Please, thank you very much. It's an honor to be able to close this out. This has been a great conversation. I think it's really, it's so interesting, Dr. Rosenbaum, that you started out on the Nazis and it's become full circle and here you are. And- What is it, crimes in Ukraine and again? Exactly right, exactly right. And for that to work and indeed to answer Judge Futage's question about how this works you have to go back to Ambassador Makarov's main point which is Ukraine has to win. Ukraine has to win in order to get this accountability, in order to prosecute special tribunals. The UN, Ukraine has to win. And today in Madrid, the NATO is dealing with this issue and they're looking at the weapons to provide Ukraine so that they can win. And I'll just end on the G7 who met yesterday. They said they're gonna support Ukraine for as long as it takes. As long as it takes. That was a brilliant statement and that's very relevant to all the justice that we're talking about here. So thank you very much for all this. Please join me again in thanking the panel. Lee, thank you very much.