 Ma'am, I'm not sure if others are able to hear you. I'm not able to hear you ma'am. You can't hear me? No. Now we can hear you ma'am. You are not audible. No, I can hear you ma'am. So I was... Oh my, and I was talking and... Okay, alright, I'm so sorry. Okay, I hope I'm audible now. Yes ma'am. Yes ma'am. Thank you Avni. Thank you for being my true guide. Okay, so I guess I'm going to start from the beginning. Okay, welcome to everybody. Hope everyone's okay. All doing good. Welcome to all students, online, offline, e-learning, everybody. Welcome. Okay, so we've been doing special issues in counseling and we did a couple of issues in the last couple of weeks. We started off with mental health, briefly looked at marriage and family. We looked at abuse last week and today we're going to look at something that's extremely important and that is suicide. Okay, and I think one of the most dreaded moments of being a counselor or being someone in ministry or even being, you know, having... just being a person who relates with others is receiving a call from someone who was suicidal. You probably may be meeting... many people you know and that you meet every day may be battling severe discouragement and depression. Some often feel like their life has, you know, that they haven't even been living. Some just feel they need to eliminate the pain and they often feel that their pain is more difficult than actually killing themselves. So when we look at suicide in itself, it is the third leading cause of death, especially among those who are in the age group of... you know, the younger age group, the 10 to 24 age group and you will see the period of adolescence. It's the third leading cause in that specific population and we do see that a lot of times and I think, you know, every year there is a good percentage of those who are bought into emergency rooms to receive treatment for injuries that are inflicted as a result of attempting suicide. We do see that males, men, are definitely more likely. They are actually four to five times more likely to commit suicide than women, but women are three times more likely to attempt suicide than they attempt. Remember commit and attempt are two different. Attempt is something that they probably have done all the means to do so. Commit is actually having completed the act. So males definitely are seen to... are at a greater risk on being suicidal. And some of the... we will probably talk about some reasons maybe later, but I think it's important to understand, statistically it is shown that males are at a greater risk. Okay, so what I want to do and before we move on, so what do I want to do through these two hours is for us to be informed, it's a lot more to understand, to be informed, to recognize what can be certain warning signs and how is it that we can respond adequately to these warning signs because suicide and other destructive behaviors, you know, don't occur very often without a warning sign. Rather, it rarely occurs without some type of a warning sign. So, you know, we need to be aware of some of this and also learn and know how to minister. So before we go ahead, I think let's start with having, you know, because I think it's really helpful when we first figure out and try and understand what is helpful, what is not helpful. And it's always best done through a role play or through, you know, through a counseling session. Okay, so don't worry, y'all don't have to be the counselors, I'll be the counselor, but I may need maybe two or three people to pretend to be suicidal and we can have a conversation. Okay, and you've just come to me for help or someone who you're talking to. And we'll just judge and see what are responses that are not effective. I think it's better when we do a role play like this because you have another person at the other end and they will actually tell you what they're really feeling. If I were to just give you information and say, okay, don't do this, don't do this, you'll say, why not? I mean, that seems the most logical thing to do. But I think it's better understood when you have someone else on the other end to help you, you know, have a peek into their minds or their hearts as to what happens when a counselor or when someone is responding. Feeling too happy to even pretend. Okay, Samuel, all right, you're off the hook then. Yeah, you'll probably make the counselor want to kill themselves. Okay, so this is just for learning. So anyone who'd like to pretend to be suicidal or suicidal more than depressed, it's that you're probably thinking of killing yourself. So it's just for us to build a conversation. So anybody, do I have any takers? This is the best way to learn. Shay, okay, great, thank you, Shay. You're welcome, Pastor. Okay, great, Shay. So you and I are going to have a conversation and yeah, so you're coming to me because you're suicidal. Okay, I'm not going to give you any other clues. You could. So the rest of you, I want you to observe what me and Shay are doing or are saying and pick up points that needs improvement. Okay, so yes, Shay, go ahead. Good evening, Pastor. Good evening. I have a lot on my mind right now. I want to kill myself. I must stop. Yes. Why would you want to do that? I've brought a lot of shame to my parents. They won't be happy with me. Yeah. So by doing so, what are you going to gain? What are you going to achieve? That way I don't have to feel any pain. I don't have to bring any disappointment to my parents. You think your parents will be happy if you do that? At least it will save them the shame and the disgrace of having a son who knows nothing better but just to bring shame. But if you do that, won't they be even more ashamed? I guess my existence on Earth will shortly leave their pain. Do you understand that after doing that, you're a person who believes in God, so do you understand that by doing that, that's not going to be too good for you? At this moment I don't care. But look at eternity. You have eternal life and all of that and so you don't want that either? No, I just want to leave. I can't carry this pain anymore. I think there's the spirit of death in you. That's telling you to go kill yourself, isn't it? No, this is my decision. You know, when the evil one takes over, he takes over completely, that you lose judgement and insight in all of this. You need to be delivered, Shey. Of what? There's the spirit of death. I need to go. I need to die. I can't take this anymore. Okay, let's pray. Let's pray and ask for deliverance right now. Okay, are you with me? Yes, Pastor. Okay, alright. Thank you, Shey. I'm so sorry. It's okay. Okay, alright. Okay, so Shey is one example. Okay, so remember Shey's example. Now I want another person to come up. Again, just being so sad. I'm going to take another path right now. Okay, so somebody else please. You just have to be the person who's coming suicidal. Okay, so you don't have to be the counselor. Yeah, somebody else. Come on, I mean this isn't hard. You just have to take cues and just speak. Can I try? Sure, Kennedy. Hi, come. Yes, Kennedy. Go ahead. Hello, how are you? Hi, Kennedy. What brings you here today? I'm tired with this life. I'm tired with this life. You're tired with the life. Okay, what do you mean? You're tired with your life? My business is not working. My family is putting me out of pressure. My bank is out of me. I don't know how to do it. I've lost all my money. You've lost your money. Your business is not working. Your family is out of place. God, what do you plan to do with all of this? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I have no idea. Maybe I kill myself. Maybe I do this country. Maybe I go somewhere else. People don't know me. Okay, you said certain options. You want to go to another country. You would like to leave this place or even kill yourself. Yeah, yeah. Yeah? Are you serious about that, Kennedy? Yeah, I have no adoption. Now I'm fed up. My brain is locked. Don't you think you take a lot of attention for yourself when you do that, Kennedy? You're going to kill yourself. Isn't that just being a little crybaby? All of us go through so many difficult things. Thank you, but I think I'll be at peace with myself. Peace with yourself? Yeah, yeah. No more pain, no more struggle. See, we all go through that. I mean, who in the world doesn't have struggle, pain, difficulties with money? Who in the world doesn't have that? No, I don't have that time. How old are you, Kennedy? 94 years. 94? Yeah. You're 94. Okay, anyway, soon you're going to die. Why would you want to take your life? It's a cheaper option. It's easier. I won't struggle with anybody. I won't sign any will. You know what I think? I think you're just craving for some attention. You're just being very cowardly in all of this. What did I do? Live. Okay, thank you. Okay, thank you, Kennedy. I'm so sorry, guys. I hope people don't take this as an example and say this is how councillor should be. Thank you. Okay, I want one more person, just one more just to give you another, another perspective, just one more person. Can I? Sure, Chaya. Go ahead. Good evening. Hello, Chaya. Good evening. I just want some help. This society thing is coming many times in my heart and I tried also two or three times and now again I'm going, I'm feeling I must do this again and I should end my life. Okay, so Chaya, okay you say you want to you're feeling you're having these feelings of suicide, okay. How are things at your home? How are things at your home? It's not very, you can say very okay, it's not very much good and okay. Okay, what about your work? There also I feel disappointed. Okay, is there any place, I'm sure there's some place that you're feeling good, isn't it? What would that be? Which place is that that you're feeling happy? No, I don't feel. I just feel if I go other places also I'll get disappointed and then I will feel more sad so it is better to die. Okay, like you said your home is like you don't find happiness at your home, you don't find happiness at work, wherever you go. What about when you talk to friends? Do you have some good friends? No, I don't have any friends. You don't have any friends also? No. Who all do you live with? I just don't want to live at all. I know that you told me. Who do you live with? Who are the other people you live with? I live with my children and my husband. Okay, so they are there. Children and husband and all are there, right? Yes. Okay, where do you work Chaya? Some more place. You work in an office and so you have colleagues and friends who you have lunch with and all of that, no? No, most of the time I sit alone and I don't interact with anyone. You don't interact. You go to church, Chaya? Yeah, I go, that is the only one place I go but just. Okay, nice, nice, nice. Good, so you go to church, good. Okay, so what are some of the things you can learn from your church? Actually, I go there just to come myself and I sit most of the time. I am not paying attention what pastor is preaching or going on. But it comes you, no? Yeah. Okay, very good, excellent. So, you know, you should probably be in a place where you are mukam. Okay, like you can go to church and be calm there. That would be a great thing to do, okay? Yes. Alright, God bless you. Thank you. Okay, so let's look at these three examples of Shai, of Kennedy and Chaya. What was the person trying to do in all three? Shai's case. Okay, Shai, tell me how you felt. I didn't feel helped at all. I felt like I was spiritually lost and in a way responsible for how I felt in a way. I didn't feel any connection with the counselors with the counselor. There was no connection or any way to even dive into the root cause of why I was feeling that way and why I wanted to commit suicide. Okay. Yeah, so, yeah. Alright. So, there wasn't a connection. Didn't feel helped. In fact, you probably would have felt even more guilty and even more shamed, right? Yeah. That's true. Alright, yeah. So then there was here, what was the counselor trying to do was to assign guilt towards the person. Yes, Rupa, I think you have an observation. I want to say something. Ma'am, I just wanted to share my inability when people are really going through these thoughts of suicide, very difficult to get through to them. I feel so helpless and they'll be so lost and crying and depressed. I feel so lost. Yeah, you're right. And that's exact. And often, because we feel lost, in fact, all these three that I tried to show you just helps you see that when people are being talked to about suicide they are uncomfortable and the counselor or the person who they're talking to wants to get away from that conversation somehow. And so in their minds, if you look to the chaya there was an avoidance of the topic in itself. This person was going and talking about work, home, church and finally found something and says, okay, you know, you just deal with that there. But so uncomfortable to be in a space of dealing with that discomfort of talking about suicide. So you're right in saying that often there is so much of discomfort that even people who are listeners are not able to figure out what to do. So that's what we're going to pick up through this lesson. Okay. All right. So Kennedy, in Kennedy's what was the counselor attempting to do there? Kennedy, tell me how you felt. Yes, Maxim. Go ahead. Yeah, Kennedy, go on. Go on. Yes. I felt no much encouragement what I wanted to do. Okay. And secondly, you didn't consider my age. Give that as a bouncing age. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Because I can have seen an example of a neighbor of ours who had a jealousy problem because I think he was well off. Because one day he just jumped from the fourth floor and he crashed himself and he died. So it really affected us. He had business, had properties and all of a sudden he just killed himself. And when he killed himself later, he had problems with the banks and the financials. I think they were harassing him. There was a big kind of communication pattern. So they just took off his life. But it was a very something for us. Yeah. You didn't consider my age. You didn't consider my income. Yeah. Right. So the person didn't even, one, didn't even delve into anything at all to understand your situation. That was one. Secondly, felt that you were just being made commenced like you're just being a baby or you're just seeking attention or you're just wasn't taking the, in fact you didn't, I mean your role play was so good that you didn't even come forth and say, hey, I want to die. But you said, you know, I want to run away or I want to go to another country or maybe kill myself. You said it in passing. You know, it was just in passing. And that wasn't, that was picked up because of this. But generally, you know, in some of those conversations, it's not been picked up. It's overlooked and saying, you know, it looks like you're just trying to get attention. Okay. So that's good. Chaya, sorry, Max said you had something to say. Yes. Of course, it's about you and say, not Kennedy. Go ahead. You have a cancer. You said, let us play at the end. So I was thinking, why you said that way? Is that God is all should lead you in cancelling you want to play to say to change his mind. That's why I was thinking about it. Why you said, let us play when you're trying to help me. I said, let us pray. Yes. Aha. Okay. Oh, you were wondering why we said that. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Okay. All right. So and Chaya's case, Chaya, what did you, I think Chaya has written something. She's written counseling is not to understand in a place of listening, giving advisors and to explain eternity. No, this I told the first rule. First one. Okay. Okay. Okay. I just I'm not very much comfortable with my counselor. Okay. I wanted my counselor should ask me more and listen to me more and then okay. Okay. Counselor should give me something which will help me more. Okay. I felt this. Okay. So it was not very helpful. Not helpful. Yeah. Yeah, that's perfectly okay. Exactly what I wanted you all to do. So with with Chaya, in Chaya's case what we what I was attempting to do was to change the topic because as a counselor I'm just so uncomfortable at the conversation I was attempting to change the entire topic and you know try and figure out something else or something that was more comfortable for me. Okay. So that was what I was trying to help to show. So these are generally if you look at it three large scenarios of ways that people respond either you completely avoid because you are so overwhelmed with the information and you don't know how to help or you spiritualize it so much that that there isn't any kind of empathy and understanding and listening or third is you dismiss it. You dismiss the entire conversation and try and minimize the pain that they're feeling and get them to cope in some other way. Okay. So these are generally broad ways of how people generally deal with this. Okay. What I'm going to do is I'm going to and let me just put up my slide and I want to take you all through some. Yes, I think go ahead. I think you have a question. Go ahead. When you were explaining this one thing that occurred to my mind was in big cities and in places you know we have counselors to help. Correct. But if like I come from a small town and you know there have been people even though their churches are big everything but people actually do not have any access to any counselors. They don't know that they can go to anybody. Right. And they are simply tied up. So in that case you know how can they be helped like they do not have a counselor to talk to and they don't have nobody whom they can confide in with their information because when I shared this I think last week also when we were talking about this family their son was suicidal and the problem is they were so scared of talking with somebody that they thought it would be like a gossip more than a help. So one person actually in the same family exactly one child attempted and committed suicide and they lost the child. Now their own child real you know in the same family so now they were so scared of talking to others and they were not seeking any kind of help and it became such a difficult situation because they can't trust people there is no professional help, there is no church help that is the kind of scenario that I have observed particularly in nature I mean yeah so what that's exactly why this is some of these topics are so important to build awareness just to know maybe you know even when someone who is suicidal comes to you you don't actually have to have very many counseling skills. There are key important things when someone who is suicidal talks to you what are you supposed to be taking care of and we're going to look at some of that and so what we also do is we hold workshops just to allow people to know what depression is what suicide is and how is it at a basic level that you can help or you can minister often it's an accepting heart just to know that when someone is talking about something take them seriously that when they're talking about dying it's not to dismiss it it's not to spiritualize it it's not to suppress it but to be in a place of accepting that they are going through that pain often just someone showing that sense of support is 80% of times when they just feel so much better that someone has heard you out okay so that is one your availability your acceptance that what they're telling you is something that is real and something that you are willing to understand secondly your responses how you respond remember these are you cannot give ready answers all because someone is talking to you someone who is suicidal does not mean that you're going to give them an answer and they are not going to be suicidal again that's not the point the point is where you're able to show a heart of understanding a heart of empathy and being able to respond to that the third one is to ensure that there is extended support system that you enlist when someone talks to you about suicide it's so depending on your assessment and depending on what you can see either rolling in someone else as a support partner maybe getting them medical help or getting them any form of support that they would require there is also a certain plan that you would do to help them to keep themselves safe at that moment that they have spoken to and then again a follow-up so if there are at least these few things that can be done you are bringing down the risk of self suicide to a good 60 percent that's what researchers said if there are people who are just able to come to a place of empathetically listening empathetically responding getting the right kind of help and support system it brings down the incidence to 60 percent and that's a great I think that's a great percentage and so that's why to be able to help others in teaching them how is it that you need to respond it's like first aid you know just like if you would get yourself caught or someone has a heart attack what would you do there are certain first aid measures and this is and I would see it as these are certain mental health first aid measures just knowing how to respond how to listen how to be actively with them as they are talking so that's what I want to present to y'all so that y'all are also in a place of awareness for yourself that you know you don't quickly just say okay maybe I'm not equipped to this go meet with somebody else but just being in a place of openly giving them a listening here giving them a sense of support and belief and trust that you are engaging with them and also finding a couple of things which which I will help look into as we're going through okay now I'm just going to put down a couple of statements and I'd like y'all to quickly tell me what you think about this so first now the next two slides is basically an attitudinal change that all of us need to have and understand when we are dealing with suicide okay so I'm quickly going to bring about sentences you could just put your thoughts on chat okay what do you think suicide attempts are about seeking attention is that true or is that is that false what do you think it's all about seeking attention it's true okay anybody else false it's false okay so you can be very often now there are different kinds of I would say of cases or of people who come forward and who bring about suicidal ideation now whether whether they have an intention of attention or not we need to be careful to understand that we go with the premise that it is not about seeking attention okay so yes I agree that there are sometimes some situations especially if you remember when we looked at mental health there are people with personality issues and sometimes they use that as an emotional threat or use that as a way but then it does not mean that they will not be impulsive and attempt it either so even if it is a case of seeking attention you cannot minimize the fact and the truth that they would probably they could probably proceed with attempting or committing committing suicide but largely we do see and as we go into factors and reasons you will understand that largely a lot of times it is not about seeking attention it is it there are other factors that lead people to think about suicide okay next one people who commit suicide are being selfish and think it is the easy way out you could just unmute and speak or you know quickly don't wait for me to call what are your thoughts people who commit go ahead I don't believe they think it is being they are not being selfish but they believe it is the easy way out they are not being selfish but they believe it is the easy way out of it but it is difficult for them but they believe this is just like the easy way out yeah absolutely so you know it takes a huge lot of courage that they actually take to doing that so there is it often is something that becomes very very significantly difficult for them so they are they the pain is so intense that they think that this is the best way out okay however they are not in the thoughts of okay that I it is a selfish thing to do but it is a thought generally it's a thought of I am saving somebody else from their misery like you know Shea's example I am a burden and embarrassment to my family and you know they would be better off than that so it is not about being selfish but I agree with Shea what he says is it's the it's the way out that maybe the only way out is to get them out of that pain but then it takes a lot of courage and strength to even come to that place of understanding Taisha I think you have a question you said partly what I was going to say I think as you said they think it's the best way out and maybe in some cases they think it's the only way out that's right that's right let me share an experience I had I used to do travel and teaching and a student of mine that was in Columbia I saw on the Facebook page that when I met him he was in the last grade of high school to go to college and sometimes passengers in college then I saw where they said the rest in peace I said what happened when I reached out they said he committed suicide I said what but they were saying it was COVID time and it was so much and the school work college were pressuring and he felt isolated a close friend of his was telling me but nobody paid him any mind he was crying for help but he thought this was the only way out for him yeah thank you thank you Taisha so let's go to the next one which is often there is a clear reason for every suicide there is a clear reason for every suicide what do you think that people do commit suicide because there is a reason any thoughts on this for me a clear reason I think in their head they're confused so I don't think it's a clear reason but they have a reason and they have and they think it's valid I don't think clear is the word I would do this all right yes Christopher Shea please go ahead you could just unmute and speak so what I believe is there's a root cause but layered and blood with so many things so there's a stack of many reasons why they're about to commit suicide but there's a very root cause for why they have come to that point okay okay that's great Christopher do you have something to say yes can you hear me yeah we can actually I think the reasoning could be on the part of the person who wants to commit suicide and that may not be clear at all to people who are friends the helping people yeah and the reasoning also can be distorted also it could be a combination of things and it all sort of comes to a boil or comes to a head where they feel there's no way out no other way out of this situation just a point on the previous one the word easy I'm not sure that this may be the most appropriate way I think sometimes it's the only way out I agree but the easy thing because as you said they're showing so much of courage to do something of that then it obviously is not the easy way out because easy means you know something that will just come naturally yeah so just a comment on that good good that's great yeah so we will look at certain reasons again it is true that there isn't just a reason for a suicide it could be things that have multiplied over time that is a accumulating factor a lot of factors that come up and just being in a sense of absolute disillusionment a sense of confusion and they take the step to clear out to feel that they can't clear out at all is there a specific reason maybe there isn't one but there could be multiple ones probably something that they may not even be clearly being able to articulate to just the sense they may just tell you I just feel hopeless I don't see a way forward but there may be multiple things that's actually propelling the decision forward okay next one this is very important asking somebody whether they are suicidal and discussing whether they have a plan or method will simply give them the idea and increase their risk of suicide true or false what do you think asking somebody hey are you suicidal or you know kind of notice that you've been down do you are you considering suicide considering to harm yourself kill yourself have you had thoughts of it would it increase their risk of suicide come on commit to something it's okay it's alright that's how we learn yes Shay go ahead I think it varies and depends on how this is communicated and I think the situation the situation the way depending on the situation the way this is the way this is asked would make it wrong would it increase the risk of suicide or not so I don't think there's a one off answer for this I think it's dependent on the individual and whatever the situation this person is going through okay alright I think it might decrease it cannot increase the risk of suicide it might decrease your saying is it that's what you said yes yes I think it might decrease not increase because you can know that people are aware about what I want to do aha aha okay alright so Rose you said a person who's contemplating suicide almost always there's a plan in mind already when they come out of their depression stage and muster enough energy they will end and can carry out their plan okay that's true the question here is if you were to probe and ask are you suicidal would it would it instill in them a desire to go just go do it it was the question okay now what see so something we need to understand is that when people are contemplating suicide they are also doing subtle means of reaching out for help okay maybe they go talk to a person or you know they kind of there are some signs there are some telltale signs some warning signs that they put in like clues to help you know it's just put in and hoping that somebody would identify and help okay so some of them may be quite direct some of them may be quite indirect but it is important when when something that you not just when you notice but actually in a counseling session when there is an assessment of anxiety and depression this is something we always ask we always ask whether there have been thoughts of self harm there's been thoughts of suicide that have been death wishes and every time and I can tell you that every time there are people who do come up and tell you yes I have considered it or I have thought about it or I am planning one they do it it does not increase the risk of an attempt or a commitment although like I think Rose already said when people do come up with a mind that is made up okay I wouldn't agree that they will end up carrying out that because it really matters on the relationship and the interaction you are having with them I'll give you a very good example I have a person who I am seeing right now have been significant issues in marriage and the spouse walked away and he felt everything was done he planned the date he planned the place he planned where to go he planned everything gave me the plan spoke about the plan says whatever and it was the spouse is a very special day for the spouse and wanted to do it on that day so it was a very clear cut plan which he engaged with me and told me about the plan now it was so much so that had started all kind of financial matters were all being settled but through the conversation as we spoke as hope was bought about as focus was changed from this to other and there were certain questions I think that really helped him to understand this and that left hope began hope somehow came about in fact as recently as this morning because there were significant other changes that came about he said he felt it again two times but then something we had discussed made him to go reach out to somebody had a conversation there and the hope came back saying I have a new lease of life so it is important to keep this in mind to keep asking to keep checking it is very very vital because that's one way that something that I keep telling my councillors sometimes who are suicidal is I tell them I care about what decisions you are making of how you want you're taking your life I care about this and I am standing alongside with you to help you go through this difficult phase just that hearing that itself makes them feel there is somebody alongside with them to take them through that that in itself reduces the risk of self harm significantly so should you ask yes you should ask in fact whoever comes to me I ask them this one question of course it really depends on what they're talking about sadness or depression not if they're talking about something they want to increase in their career if I don't have any sniff of a sad mood or depression I wouldn't but generally people who come with anxiety, depression, failed relationships issues with finance with grief with the sense of lack of coping this is something that we are trained to ask it's important to ask it will not frighten them it will not want make them want to do so to commit suicide it's not like this you know they have the same notion even about sex you say you know you talk to somebody talk to children about educating them about sex maybe they want to go try that out that is not true okay because the more the awareness that someone is walking alongside with them really helps them to deal with the kind of struggle that they're going through yes Taisha do you have a question or a response Taisha go ahead I was making reference to there was a situation in the media where a friend, two friend the male wanted to commit suicide and so he text the female friend and says I'm thinking about killing myself her response was go ahead and kill yourself why do I care and so he went and killed himself and they are charging her with what is it I'm not sure of the technical term but pretty much manslaughter I'm not sure if you heard about that and it's a media frenzy if you google it you'll see and they're really charging her for that because they're saying it's you are aiding the person killing himself and helping so you really have to be careful when people say these things as we see absolutely I still agree just quickly just a few more suicide ideation is a sign of deviance what do you think the very fact that they have ideas like this is maybe they are crazy something wrong with them okay it is not a sign of deviance okay look back at your own life I'm sure we are all testimony of the fact that the thoughts have come to us you know that we should end our lives somehow maybe not right now but at some point of our life stages of our life experiences I've had it I don't want it I don't ideation ideation is not the desire to commit it but just you know maybe I should just die maybe I should just I wish I was dead or wish I could just fall off from here and I die right so it is not a sign of deviance at all okay people who talk about suicide won't do it people who talk about suicide won't do it again I think this refers back to my earlier question earlier statement that we need to take seriously anybody who brings about that kind of ideation okay suicide is a purely personal decision so you should allow them to do what they think is a right for them that is not true okay yes it is a personal decision but it is a cry for help and it is something that they are hoping to have someone help them through that through that situation so you can't say that's you know like how you say you know they've decided to walk this path let them do it the way that they want to you cannot leave it at that this is this is like SOS okay you need to get help be upbeat when you respond to a depressed person you know the way that when Shae's role play I mean he did such a good job and I felt so hypocritical the way that I was sounding so offhandish and up one you've got to come to a place of being you don't sound depressed but you need to sound empathetic you need to sound that you feel the pain that you could hear the pain in his voice you could actually hear the struggle that he was going through so to be able to experience that and not you know by your joy or by your happiness or by looking at something that is that they can look forward to like in Shae's example you know okay you found something where you can get peace and then just go there and get that that's not how you would respond okay people who really want to kill themselves are beyond help untrue that is not true like I said it's a cry for help and they are looking for every resource to be able to get them to that place of receiving that's close for a break and we will come back it's 10.55 on my clock and we will come back at 11.5 to continue on