 Good day wonderful people and welcome back to the 4080 podcast with your host Mr. Thomas Hanley of course. Today I've got a very special episode for you and I always say that every single time and it's going to become a meme at some point once the podcast episodes start popping off but we're going with it. Today we are going to be talking about reasonable adjustments in the workplace, in education. What are they? How can you ask for them? What style of reasonable adjustments should organizations or educational places be doing and what's the most common type of thing that they're doing? Today I'm joined by the very lovely Corinne. I got it right didn't I? Okay good. Thank you very much. So yeah how are you doing today Corinne? I'm doing pretty good. I'm really busy so I feel it. We were talking earlier about like oh you know like so much stuff adds up and you're like I gotta keep going gotta get going and you're free to do self-care. So yeah I feel you. I'm definitely still in work mode because I finish at like 4.30 to 5pm usually and it's about 20 to 6 so I'm still trying to like get my head in the space. And I squeezed you right between clients so like I have my students and I have other clients I work with so you're like right in between all of them. Cool. So yeah. Very good. I appreciate you fitting me into your schedule. Of course. Just a little update from me actually. We have the autism show in Manchester coming up soon and it's something that I'm going to be speaking at I think on the Friday and Corinne I seem to remember seeing your name. I don't think I'm in that one. Someone told me that they thought I was too. So one of my they were making jokes. Did they hire you and forget to tell you. So if that's the case let me know. But yeah I I know I think Carol Jean and a couple others might be there. So I have yet to. Carol's going. I think Carol is. There's like a couple she's doing. See the problem is is you guys are so popular and awesome sauce. You forget that like people like me were in the background. You know I'm like the one making accommodations reasonable adjustments all these things. Speaking as much. I think it's so you guys can speak. I'm just in the background and I love it there. Carol Carol Jean's the social order for anybody. Mind your autistic brain for anybody who doesn't know. Very lovely lovely lady who has been helping me out with a few things as well. So yeah it's it's I mean I think the last time that we spoke because I usually do like pre chats for like half an hour and I think we spoke on the phone for about two hours. Yes we did. We spoke for a while. I mean it was cool. I was like you know told people it's so weird when you're in autism advocacy you actually meet people you link with and it's a real link. It's a oh I don't have to mask with you. Oh I can be accommodating. You know I can talk about my needs wants and desires in a more less stressful environment. So I saw a lot about personality as well. Like have you ever done the is it the Mice Briggs the 16 personalities test? I have not. I've heard about it. I had students who do it. I had clients who did it but I have not because just just like with the the sort of the the internal sense for autism. I find that I'm quite I'm quite good at finding people with my with my personality type because we tend to to get on a lot more. It's usually the the INFJ personality type the advocate which is like probably doesn't mean anything anything me just saying it but you should you should look it up after. I definitely will. When I have some free time I'll look into it. Yes of course of course for your busy 40 hour working. Oh my god. Yeah. What I do is I teach part time online. So I work one on one with students who are in hospitals or have disabilities who can't go to school right now. And so I work with them to make sure they have to catch up on work. I also work with IEPs for parents and students alike to advocate in an IEP meeting right like a lot of parents are like what is IEP what are all these like weird words. Actually it's autistic adults too by the way. I have a lot of autistic adults. I didn't even know I had an IEP. I'm like yeah and they're like what's a 504 plan. So I help a lot with like school place advocacy whether or not that be doing a write up or just going into the actual meetings. It's actually how I started special education was I was an English teacher. The school refused to work with the odd kids. So I in case managed five autistic kids and then 180 kids English. So that's what brought me into special education. And now I'm on top of that. You know I'm a work colleague. I work with Carol Jean, Jessica, Michaels, Allie and Jamie. I'm sorry girls for our last names but we do a thing called neuro drive where we're working with businesses. We go into businesses we present and each of us is a cog in the machine and we're trying to empower both the employer and the employee to make a better more inclusive world for workplace specifically. So yeah if you're interested go on social oddie, her website you'll see neuro drive and reach out. Definitely. Definitely check it out. Very busy. Well I always find it it's quite crazy because a lot of the social media stuff and the YouTube videos and things of that nature tend to be on I don't know. It's I kind of have to in my mind I have like the idea of what the autistic community is and you have like a bubble of autistic adults who you know it tends to be that we talk a lot about particular traits of autism or particular ableism you know masking things of that nature you know things that are really kind of interesting and more language and more sort of sort of progressive kind of style things and then you have the research side of it which you know I'm not going to explain too much but you got the research side of things and then you have the education workplace you know things things of that nature and you know one of the reasons why I wanted to chat to you is because I find it really interesting when those bubbles sort of cross over because I have I've always tried in my life to kind of dip my feet into each of the bubbles you know I did some some special needs stuff my mom's an SCN person and I think as well you know around research because of my biomedical sciences background I've kind of so I thought I thought it'd be really great to have you in to talk about you know some things that perhaps a lot of autistic individuals who are part of those part of that bubble don't necessarily hear about I don't know where exactly this sentence this paragraph of text is going but well and I'll tell you it's so interesting you say that because recently I've been working with NeuroDrive on creating our own lists of accommodations and we're all in different places I told each of the girls I'm like you guys are fabulous like I get to practice with the spectrum of what it's like to ask for accommodations because some people have never even had someone ask them what are your needs they're like what and it's a shock and they got a process through this they're like okay I need a couple of weeks to really think this through other people like oh I've had workplace accommodations wait I never thought that was an accommodation wait what and so like I have the people who kind of know and then you have others who are like these are my needs and then they're like wait I didn't think about this so it's been really fun working with people who it's a spectrum right for accommodations and modifications let alone like what are your needs I'm very my version of an accommodation you know is that we are meeting getting our needs met whether it be in our workplace by our teaching staff by our education that is what an accommodation is is it's a way to meet our needs when I did research for just NeuroDrive I learned that HRs and businesses are set back and like the schools used to do this is called a deficit based model where you're focused on things people can't do and so we're in the system where people are so used to saying all the things they can't do right I'm having these meetings with amazing advocates and I'll offer it to you you know I've been working on lists if you ever want to do one you can meet together on it you know you go oh my god it was inspired by um we went to an event a couple women of us in NeuroDrive and it was horrific our accommodations were not met they were all over the place and I was like we need to me and my organized freak self as you know was like we need to organize this so that's what happened so we could talk about that but it's true I think a lot of people think accommodations have to be just for education just for work but it's really a life thing um and the reason I had to start looking at my own accommodations to share a personal story is when my needs are not met my seizure disorder acts up so I don't I've had to come up with my own accommodations quite a bit because it was like if I don't get my needs met very black and white right my body's like bye Felicia um we're out for the day I'm not letting you do this so I always tell people like it's not fair for me to say like I just physically cannot cope and it says blessing and a curse simultaneously because it's like if my needs aren't met I am screwed so it was really horrible because and it's quick like it was two weeks in a workplace you know I'd have an issue and I'm like what's going on there's like oh my doctor's like well did you get your accommodations and I'm like I've been fighting the whole entire time for them so that's really why I became so passionate about accommodations making sure like get rid of reasonable right so you have a literal sensor for for not getting your accommodations and I'm sorry it's a shock factor story but it's true and I realize that like there's some people who never had that because they just they're so incredible they were to cope through it and I never had the ability to do that so I suppose that there'll be some there'll be some people out there who who never asked for accommodations and never get accommodations but like they put so much energy in order to make up that distance that make make up the the lost time and the energy and the stress and like well the way they told it to me is like they feel it but they didn't realize what it was and so I used to be that way until my brain injury I used to go to cope through a lot of it and then it's like now I just can't you know the new brain is like no no you just don't have a choice today so I think it's important though to note it's a spectrum right whether or not we're talking about autism disabilities or accommodations modifications like it's a spectrum you know and so it's so individualized it overwhelms people and they try to put us into a system right my favorite is workplace coach oh here's a workplace coach okay well like that's very individualized like I don't need a workplace coach I can't tell you how many times John's like oh we'll give you a workplace coach coach you know to help you out I'm like I don't need that I need a hybrid opportunity or like I need like a you know control of a setting and so it's interesting how when people see autism they have these assumptions and I'm like it's a spectrum so I always tell people ask the individual right and then I don't know through these little meetings I've learned that it's harder for some people to actually vocalize it and so we use examples right like oh my god one of the stories I heard was horrible was like they were getting fired and like they felt like the manager was so excited to fire them and I was like well how did that feel so how do we stop this and so we talked that out so it's like a weird therapy about how to get your needs met and a solution based I think something I see a lot of times in the autistic community advocacy is here's all these problems not a lot of solutions no so it's nice to be a part of a solution because that's who I am if I'm going to complain if I'm going to throw a little tiff I gotta have a I think we were talking about that the last time that we we met and I you know immediately my my thoughts went to I'm a problem person but yeah taking a step back you know I I'm I'm vocalizing my problems for constructive means solution I was even when we were talking I remember I was telling you like look you're thinking about like what can we do like I want to solve this I call out loud processing right you're processing this and you're not saying I hate the person or I'm angry you're like I want a solution like this is frustrating and that's how I feel a lot of people feel with whether or not be work needs or education needs to like they're frustrated their needs aren't being met and they're like hmm how do we do this some people do great vocalizing it I am one of those I love talking I could talk all day other people do better with writing you know they want to write that out write up that process for them and then it's interesting it's interesting that you say that because I started off as a as a writer mostly I spent like I don't know words of five or six years just writing constantly about new new sort of phenomena that I've noticed in my life and myself and the neurotypicals and in different situations and sort of contrasting that with various bits of literature and it ended up that I actually just yeah well exactly like I like doing the podcast I like doing the public speaking and videos but I also sometimes don't want to be on camera I don't want to be recorded I want to be able to meticulously write down everything that I that I mean in this and sometimes I get I get the words wrong and you know I do a lot of my writing on social media and that means that the word limit is very concise and the word limit is also a big barrier for for for doing explanations for certain statements and I find it rip that's a really really hard bit about writing these days is that you have to be very punchy you have to be like it's it's all about the opener and the statements and you've got to make statements at the start and the conclusions got to be up there right in the view of everybody because most people just like flicking through photos and well that's problem with accommodations and adjustments in the workplaces is that we want to insta fix and these are not insta fixes right like this is a you have to think about it process it's a time thing and I found that a lot of people you know in HR like I just want to fix now I want to fix now but that's not possible it's just also crazy it's crazy to me that there's not there's not a system for individualized support it's like well there might there may be a system for individualized I don't want to call it a system it's a system that's designed to make it hard to be individually supported and so if you go in you request your accommodations and then you're like all right here's my accommodations here's my doctor's notes it's a process that some companies take eight months to do some take years and then they don't even get the accommodations and so that's where I have a problem where it's it's so time consuming for everyone involved it's not effective for businesses or for the employees and so that's kind of where I've Carol laugh but like I have a solution you know that I've talked to a lot of businesses about where it's like we need to streamline this we need a system that's more pragmatic that actually works for everyone involved because the system we're in right now doesn't in a lot of times if you read the laws and legislation particularly in the United States you know I went to these government websites that HR is used and I was like I mean one of the accommodations is they're not they keep asking fire them find a way to let them go and so it's really yeah and I have friends that are business owners who say the same thing they're like well that's the law but I'm gonna not do the law because I want to be better so it takes special people in a corrupt system and so I think that's just the laws are more on the side of an employer than an employee in this case even though we have the IDA Act a lot of people are not not only is it not being upheld it's not being enforced so like you know like I said like I was I love the line people like oh businesses can't be biased against you have a disability oh yes they can they can't say I fired you because you're autistic but they can say it wasn't a good thing yeah and so a lot of people don't have these these traits and stuff that stop them from these autistic these traits that are not I'm not saying that are autistic they're just this person right like it's like oh you're a weirdo you're fired and I've had companies do this when they're like we don't think you could handle the stress at this place and I'm like I've been here for three weeks and been fine so you know I it's where it's frustrating and I think right now workers we're in this huge worker revolution that's starting the great exodus of employees you know we have strikes we have people unionizing and I want to ride that wave of disabilities and accommodations and race and really bring it all into here because right now the corruption of the workforce and business practices are coming they're bubbling COVID-19 brought it out right people lost their jobs it was like a huge like I don't want to say s show but s s show you know like first words you know united um because it's true and I think part of what happened is is that people like I'm done okay like oh we almost died because of COVID like all this stuff happened like we need to change how we work and there's this very I don't think it's just American which makes me sad this model of if you are poor it's your fault if you are you know you are lesser if you're not able just to blend in if you're not able to fit in there's something wrong with you instead of being like hmm let's think of the bigger picture like what's going on and I think that is where most people lie like people need supports you know it's not like diverse people nor diverse people we just need extra supports doesn't mean we can't do the job sometimes we do better actually you know different supports yes and so I think that's part of the problem is it's like we're so focused on social construct what is normal and we all need money in this world it doesn't matter like if you're you know I don't hate the terms you know mild months and I don't hate them I just like mild months of year or high functioning I hate high functioning low functioning labels oh god they use them all the time in workplace accommodations and I hate it because the idea of functionality is so biased right but part of functioning and being able to function is getting your needs met which is an accommodation so I've had a few HR people make faces at me they're like I like that's why I got a degree in English and they're like yeah and then I'd never hear from the job again but it was good I picked up I picked up one one thing from well not obviously just one thing but one thing really sort of put my ears at which was about the time needed for accommodations is very very long and if you if you're saying that like it's eight months or about like kind of eight months or above kind of thing like most probations are you know in that time then that that's when they tend to need the need their support I had a school that said a year they would not accommodate me until I worked there for a year oh my god and then that was for a year probation as well well no they were like there's no probation we just don't give accommodations till after a year and like they had this whole timeline and that was the workplace took me two weeks and I was so sick and I had to quit yeah it's like I'm leaving and I will never work for a charter school again because of them I've had plenty of issues with accommodations but oh boy did I learn charter schools they're going to hate me right here like boiling but like this one particular charter school made it me really have a bad taste because at least the district tried to accommodate me they at least tried to work with me like there was conversations to be had yeah but never at this one particular charter school so yeah you know they're a full profit model for a reason and just to start being very just being wary of our time yeah I think I got questions worded you down yeah I think we've probably gone through a couple of the questions but we'll we'll sell a brush upon it a little bit what got you into you know working in into education and how did you make that move from education the arena of education to the arena of the workplace I still kind of have my foot in both which is nice because there's a lot in common right um I'm a part time education right now they were part time in the workforce but I will say it was my needs not being met I had no choice like I'm sitting here trying to teach I love my students the principal and I are getting on great but my needs are not being met and HR is a nightmare and so I had to leave a job because of HR I had to meet leave a job because my accommodations are being met and so I became frustrated really poem so I just was like you know what like and that's when I started getting more and more to advocacy was was this was was this SCN education or is it just mainstream this was a charter school here in Stockton um that is a phenomenal school that's why I don't name them the school itself fantastic the company that runs at HR so I don't want to undermine the work these incredible educators are doing and these people are doing so that's why I never named the school like the particular charter but I will say that in a public school setting they were much better at doing me and so like for example the district here in Stockton um basically sued me for paychecks they had given me that I didn't ask for and threatened my credential so I've had issues with both I will say it's funny story I think I got more scared of Stockton and I don't think they held the power that I thought they did looking back um but when you're having like 20 seizures a day your mind is not in the right place of course like that's that's pretty pretty out there and like why you had to give you know your money back and everything because like they were like you know you were in a rough spot and you're there's a reason you're not teaching at the moment right so how did you make that move that the move from the education to the to the workplace like what was I think it was just kind of like I said like I just kind of was like I'm tired of dealing with HR so I started talking to people venting and then it was kind of like well it's a solution what's a solution and then I still have always stayed in education though I've always worked with students whether or not be part-time because I don't want to leave education I feel like there is I love teaching and I want to keep that if I'm able to do it just with one kid just to make their eyes sparkle it's worth it I have a lot more patience also for students than I do for adults you know but um yeah I think that for me it was just like it's this weird shift of where you're like you can imagine me if you're able to imagine me standing like between both is where I feel like I'm at because there's so much things that cross over accommodations cross over in both and you know the deficit-based model is what schools used to be in and I see how beautiful it is now that we're in a needs-based model you know we're in a student-centric model and it's a huge shift right now happening and so I want to create that same shift in the workplace where it's sort of a creating a channel between the bubbles to allow them to exactly I'm in the gray area I'm like a gray bubble that's like a bubble the both grass grass been onto chains holding the bubbles pulling them together yes I'm gonna do like a store moment you know yeah um I haven't seen it yet but I've seen I've seen memes around it I've seen his trailer I've seen his absurd physique that he has for his I will become a Thor for a moment and oh my god don't think I could ever be that strong I think you think you'd have to hop on a steroid cycle to do that I think so and I just I don't like the look you know I'll be strong in other ways but I yeah I think that's kind of what happened is I just found like he talked about like all the connections although like you know synchrocies I think is what they call it like two things just keep connecting and just keep happening that's definitely been my life so that's definitely why I got into the workplace and reasonable adjustments you know a person can ask for in the workplace I mean that's a tough one right you can ask for anything but you're never guaranteed to get it and that's where it's frustrating because it's like you should I'm dealing with a client right now who poor thing like did all the right things she wrote up very beautiful descriptions of what she needed very specific and they took this phenomenal list she created you know broken down and made it into three bullet points and you know I remember Carol Jean's like what's going on and I was like oh they took these beautiful accommodations and forced them into the reasonable accommodation model and she's like is that what happened I'm like aha so I'll be working with them but yeah it's just that's one of many like my own story my doctor and I spent hours hours about my own accommodations right like we're gonna tailor it to this job we're gonna do hybrid on Wednesday for example Karen's gonna go home early and she'll be be able to do staff meetings from home because it's a short day you know and it was straight up no no I'm like I mean this is doctor documented signed my neurologist my primary all of these doctors were on this and it was like no so it's what I tell people is like keep fighting for your needs you know we're in a crazy movement right now where there is a big exodus of people too you know right now workers do hold a power they didn't happen if we if we sort of you know take a take a little bit a time segment at the moment that with the what you weren't you saying about the the deficit model and things things like that you know what sort of reasonable adjustments could people generally ask for in this in this current climate of the workplace work coaches are very popular more time like time to process which I found actually helps a lot of people just giving that time to process very much so it's kind of when you say that because I go into my own deficits they keep things I can't do and I haven't paid a ticket right so note that we all are human but I think one of the bigger ones would be like a workplace advocate asking for more times clearing concise language it's one of the number one things I say in an IEP he is clearing concise language you know if you want to have a meeting who is the meeting go to you know like who is invited to send meeting having lists is something else a lot of workplaces have been doing and that is actually Ali Jessica and all of them who have taught me that one where it's like they just are like be specific right who do they need to speak to you for this problem who needs to happen and you know because one of the bigger issues that's happened is like you know autistics were kind of black and white and so we're this is your management this is your supervisor go to them for everything yeah and then we go to them for everything and get in trouble for it so it's kind of like give us a clue list okay if you're having payment issues go here just email me anytime you need help emails once every hour like yeah I mean my own boss is funny because she was like she just I was like can I get a list of like what I need done and she was like okay but it was one of those you know she started texting me like okay this person this person has issues come up but you know I was like a list would have been helpful so I still haven't gotten my own list but it's something I think that's a reasonable thing to ask people hey give me exactly who I need to talk to for what situations and it's a very it depends on the business too like there are some businesses that are very open to this whether or not being education like all the different sectors right like that are open to this feedback of like help me others are not and so I always tell people you feel like your boss your is not listening you might need to go and I know it's cruel as someone who you know has had to leave of quite a few jobs now the ideal would be all the you know the accommodations are made and they say that but it's not up to them so and exactly and so I found that like even in certain businesses where people wanted to accommodate me the HRs wouldn't allow them to hence the charter school you know so I think that it's important to kind of know your limits too right like so if you ask for your reasonable accommodations you ask if you're trying to be proactive you're not saying screw you you didn't do your job I'm miserable right like there's people who do this and they're like I got fired I'm like mm-hmm I bet you did so you have to be I would say like piece to piece but it's kind of like a mask you put on you're like hi I need help let's help each other I really hate you and your organization oh really not this oh no I've done that I've had big smiles I'm like hi so we need to talk about what's going on let's chitchat and one of my friends she was like oh no no that's that's that's that's the current because it's my scripted very you know yeah it's they always my one of my girlfriends calls it um Corinna's gonna kill you with kindness literally and it works it works a lot you'd be surprised I've won a lot of people over even if I didn't like them even if I was boiling mad but as a teacher you can't show a student you don't like them and that's what really helped me out so I feel the same way about workplaces I'm like I can't show you I hate you so it's not fake it's real and I think that's something else a lot of people that's so fake Corin you're masking you know I think when we have to mask for certain things and being in business being professional is definitely one of them I this it's a really hot top well hot topic for me at the moment um around masking because you know I've I've got a very sort of different idea of what you know bad masking is and what good masking is and but every time that I mention anything about masking not on the whole being bad um I get a lot of comments I kind of came up with this term called um integrated masking which is it basically it covers um it's the idea the idea is is that you have this mask which is a representation of a person that's not you and like everyone has different masks that they it's different to the term but everyone has different masks that they put on for different situations you know you don't interact with your mom the same that that you interact with your manager or a significant other or you know and integrated masking is all about under sort of peeling away the mask first identifying who you are what what autism what what part of autism is is you know what is autism to you that kind of thing and then choosing which situations you want to show your autistic side as well so it's like you're putting on a mask but you're putting on an autistic mask like well I teach my students this that there are times and places for everything you know I was like you can't go up to your mom and start cussing around your mom will not be happy with you and a couple of my students made the joke yeah and they're like no you're running this game right because that's disrespectful you can't go up to a manager and start cussing them out you're you're fired as you should be and so you have to neurotypical people mask too there's this big thing that it's only an odd thing no they mask just as much as we do it's a society thing I would say the difference is that sometimes autistics we buy into our own masks we feel like if we unmask it's shameful we unmask we've kind of been trained that it's a no no bad juju etc and so I found that having the right place to unmask is important like in my home I used to not be able to when I was younger be able to really unmask if I did I was made fun of etc so like having your sanctuary I think is important and I'm lucky I have a husband who I unmask with all the time he gets Korean Korean is that messy hair tired like what do you want just as much as the gorgeous person right so I think that it's important to kind of note that you know you have to have your support and your safe group it doesn't always have to be family like mine in my case is my husband who is now my family I married him by law he's stuck with me which is always my joke I'm like no refunds you sign the paper now you can't go back I gave you plenty of warnings you know you know what you're getting into and he makes the same joke with me and make any any reasonable accommodations in the relationship what we actually do within our relationship which is the funny part so like we read books so something we discovered him and I was oh god we're trying to like buy a house right it was an end here and I'm like so what we did is we got a book for it we read it together went great we have one for marriage as well we have marriage rules we read it goes great and it gives us this common thing to talk about so yeah that's why I said it's accommodations are not just like a work social situations friendships dating yeah I think my favorite one I have with my husband is pause when I'm really angry I just start spewing like a dragon you know just imagine me being a little dragon you know it's fire everywhere it's it's my favorite one as well but it takes a while to implement I can tell everybody about it definitely does and you know it's funny is he the other day I was like pause he kept going I said pause yelled at him and then I started yelling back and he's like I think it's acknowledging not only acknowledging that but being like okay and then you know him and I sat down and talked real and you need those people you can talk real with and that's the problem you cannot talk real with everyone in the entire world you can't right no if you manage you cannot and I think this is the thing with masking everyone is like oh well if I get accommodations I unmask no you still have to keep certain parts of this you have to keep a professional you know this is about making sure you can thrive in a work environment you can thrive in an education environment but you have to do a part of it too and your part is making sure that you succeed you do your best and there sadly are certain societal standards to be met in that especially in the work and education you know with my husband and I there's no societal standards you know like I mess up it's okay so I think that I always tell people I started telling people recently think of your own life what accommodations do you do like do you have a quiet house do you like having like a fountain in the background like what or play things you do like every day you know to kind of just work your system in these are technically accommodations you've made to help yourself yeah I think it's um you know it's it seems seems to me that you know because I do a lot of stuff around dating and relationships and you know quite often a lot of people in the you know talking mostly about NT and the relationships autistic not autistic they tend not to be a lot of conversations from either side about adjustments it's kind of like um this weird sort of dynamic where one person does things for them because they think they won't do them if they don't do them and then they get resentful towards the other person and the other person is like I didn't ask you to do that and it's actually something my husband and I had to talk about exactly what you're saying because he's not autistic I am and of course my seizure disorder as a whole another ball game yes yeah I can imagine and so when I first met him he had never seen one of my seizures ever and I was proud of that and of course that's changed um for a man and I remember my girlfriend he said oh oh just wait just wait and once he saw a seizure he felt like he had to take over now there were some incidents to see had to because I can't I'm not there like right I'm physically I'm not I'm maybe physically you know there but mentally I'm not right I'm not there I cannot speak and so we had to really it made him and I have to talk about that what are your needs Chris what are your wants what do I do like and so we kind of began to address it through my seizures and then it was able to go over into other aspects it is so hard as an autistic person I can tell you like it was so I felt weak I felt he was superior in this weird way too and I was like oh god and I was like I feel sick I have to tell him because otherwise like you know but we talked and talked and it actually is what made him and I so strong and like my family whether or not they're neurotypical or not are like you guys are such a strong unit you're united you know and I'm like yeah we worked for this this was not something that came for free and so I think that though it sounds cruel extreme health challenges you'll see that people in those relationships it either makes or breaks them and a lot of people forget that though autism is not an extreme mental like it's not extreme health challenge it is still something that impacts a relationship and you have to talk about it and it's uncomfortable it's not going to be fun and it's it may mess up but you may lose a person but I think part of this idea of like if you're going to be with someone they have to know you and you have to know them it's a two-way street and so I loved you and talked about on your thing about how like you know you can't have one person just doing everything for the other I actually showed it to my husband you can't have one person doing everything for the other person without them asking for it or if they do it has to be given takes so for example you know my husband's done a lot for me but I've also done a lot for my husband you know like we've found a way to support each other and equalize it out in our own relationship and it's important to note that you know and you have to see the impact on someone else too and I've had a lot of my friends who are on the I don't even know the spectrum actually they're just they are disabled and that's been a hard part for them where they're like well I'm feeling myself in this moment and I was like yeah but your poor partner wants to help you why do you like assume positive intent until proven otherwise right like assume you know you're dating someone as a friend or more you know like assume positive intent and I think this is something a workplace could do just as much as education you know we need to start assuming positive intent we're also defensive we're also like try to guard ourselves you don't get to know what we're supposed to be able to unmask they're contradicting ideals so until like you assume positive intent go out there be like well so my masking is not just about the positive traits like the the stimming more in emotion you know for emotional regulation things of that nature it's also the right okay I would I am an adult and I like to be independent but I also really struggle with my executive functioning and I'm not always good at good at making places on time or getting to places and I've you know just going back to perhaps my you know one of my past past relationships I had the reason why I was talking about sort of these asking about you know if you need help with things is because there's a lot of sort of borderline infantilation infantilization with certain things like some people just feel a compulsion to to do things for you and for me I like to I like to ask for things if I want something I don't like someone just coming in and doing things for me all the time yeah but but but in you know for example I was gonna ask you for help I would ask you to do that for me but in in this case it was it was just thrust upon me and it thrust upon me and I conversations and conversations and you know it as I said it led to a lot of resentment from the other person for for me not pulling my weight or doing stuff and a lot of resentment from me because I didn't ask for it I don't want it stop like and then I always feel like there's this looming weight over my head that every time this person does something to me I feel smaller you know and you feel like you owe them yeah I owe them and that is something my husband and I had to work through because that was very much him for a while you know there was a and this is where it became so difficult I told people because I was like there literally was a time I could not speak but now I can't shut up I can talk again you know and it's cruel but that's something him and I were working on because you know it's true and it doesn't take I mean so it took my husband me having seizures to do this but for other people it's just hearing autism you know like oh autism I have to provide everything yeah no and I have to make sure they get out and socialize and shower and I have to be on track of that and make sure that they've got it's like another thing like with with my caregiver you're my partner with mouth I like to be on my own when I'm when I'm having a meltdown I don't I don't need I don't need support in the way that people think that I need and usually like a lot of interaction with other people 10 and people around tends to make it worse obviously depending on the person but no I feel you I have a select feel even for my seizures I tell everyone to get out these are my people and I think it's there's a point also where you know like these are accommodations and you're talking about your story right and I'm thinking of accommodations in my head you know reasonable adjustments within your relationship you know just plan for five minutes right give you 30 minutes like you know before time I do that with a friend of mine by the way I tell her meetings 30 minutes before it is and she always comes right on time so you know these are adjustments we make for our friendships I asked my parents to do the same thing about so and so this is a great example of I like right that's an adjustment right like tell me 30 minutes beforehand tell me beforehand and people have to be flexible with that and if they're not I don't think they're best for you then if you're not going to adjust if they're not going to meet and you have to meet them too right so you're asking them to tell me 30 minutes beforehand don't be an hour late you know like it's kind of this fun like you you have to give and take in relationships everywhere in the world whether not be with a teacher your boss schools etc like everywhere right so if you're going to ask for an adjustment you're going to ask for an accommodation honor it by doing your best you know and I think if the other person on the other side isn't going to listen you can't reason with them and that's kind of where like my father used to say this liner you can't reason with unreasonable people you're asking them to do something they just can't do like it's not fair a different way of saying you can't wow I'm not going to say that and that applies to workplace that applies to a teacher you have and there's certain situations where you're stuck right like when you're dating someone you're like I'm by then people feel stuck but you always have the option of leaving and that's the tougher part and trying to leave a job you have an option of leaving this person but what you know it's a hard one right so I think that you don't always have the option of leaving the school though or a teacher which is the only one where like you actually HR is another one you don't have an option of going to a different HR person when they're the only one who does the job it's kind of like a prison isn't it some weird weird sort of way oh yeah it's double it's like I was called a double edged sword where it's like yay ow yeah like we're both being stabbed but I think that's why I love to this conversation you want to have about accommodations and adjustments because that is the point everyone thinks it's only workplace it's only school but it's so much greater than that and that's been something that's been liberating my life to realize that it's asking for my needs is what an adjustment is asking for my needs is what an accommodation is and it's tough but once you are able to it's you don't want to go back so I we've been talking a lot about like the variety of different things I didn't think we'd be talking about relationships what we are but what I wanted to ask is you you mentioned about the the deficit model of a couple of times why do why do we have this this deficit model and you know what's what's the kind of background or history to its use well the history is that disabled people we're gonna go way back in the day they used to put us in psych wards and asylum just throw them away you know like be done now they're like we want to work with these people there's too many of them like let's start working with people let's start you know embracing differences I would argue it's a basic human thing for neurotypicals that they fear and autistics everyone actually we fear what we do not understand we fear the other and that is what neurodiverse people are to very much so many neurotypical people we are unknown they do not understand us like a like a jam in the the social the social constructs and so all these advocates people came out and they started me like no and then we got the IDA Act now it's legally they have to work with us it's not just I want to I'll be charitable and work with these poor disabled peoples no you have to the charity aspect of it as well like and like a lot of organizations understand the cherry aspect of it I think it is a self-fed model to make people feel better about themselves and there are a lot of goods that come out of these charities right like there's a good idea like helping others like that's a good thing but I argue sometimes hero complex hero complex is I'm a savior I saved this person I saved this person you need a lot of it's not an act of charity in a lot of cases because the you know it's been you know the utility of having a neurodiverse person in the workplace is you know there it occurs and it's you know you know we have people in our society who do really well for themselves and a neurodiverse those who don't and so I think that that's why I would say it's a spectrum of course yeah life is a spectrum and I think that that is the problem with the deficit-based model is that this model was created to appease the unknown and just think very negatively about people others do not understand they did an education medical still has a very deficit-based model um and same thing with business and so it's quite a natural sort of human psychological thing isn't it we always focus on the negatives like they always stand out to us more things we don't think okay this person's good at that and how can I get the best out of this person exactly so we're asking people to go against human nature in this sense with these other models being person-centric being student-centric being employee-centric being you know human-centric isn't these models and then we're putting these models and business in particular into a place that's thinking profit and a lot of people don't understand a business's job is to make the most money that is its job it's not there to be charitable or be kind and have these human virtues no it is there to make money and so it is not always profitable to help someone with an accommodation it's not always profitable to do these things if you're thinking very black and white about it would you reach the gray area it can't be right you know a lot of school said they wanted to work with me because they wanted an autistic advocate they loved the idea of an autistic person empowering disabled people it's like great in theory but in practice and that's kind of how I feel about the deficit made of baseball it's like theory it sounds fantastic but in practice it's disgusting so I think that there's not a follow-through there's not a real practice there's all these ideals and so as human beings we have to I would say not just as a country in the United States but as a world on a world format think how are we going to address things we don't understand we're really trying to change the way people think and be patient like we are asking people to go against what the human nature and so I think part of the problem is and I will never speak ill of an autistic or a disabled advocate but when you push push push push push it comes across bad you're not helping the movement after a while if you're going to become so negative you're going to make people scared they're not going to embrace this they're going to throw it further away yeah because that's easier and I that's something that's starting to happen with autism it's starting to be like such a punchline that people no longer want to bring in advocates they no longer want to work and it's a real tension that's very real you have people within the autistic community who pretend like they're helping and they're not too and I will not name names but there's a particular place that comes to mind so I just yeah it's frustrating right I mean people can think of their own place too when I say that and that's the scary part so how do we come to this place where you know I guess for me whenever I when I became an autistic advocate when I joined the public platform I decided that I wanted to think about everyone like and not like me instead of that's the ones like me and that's helped me out a lot right I I do not have to understand what it is like to be an autistic who doesn't have a college degree for example yeah I don't have to understand that but how can I help them how can I help them get their needs met it's like a case by case right like they always say like we have our fixation mine is adjustments mine is needs mine's accommodations I am the accommodations modifications queen anywhere I go any job I've had has been to do with meeting people's needs so I think that that is something to kind of you know that's how I went into like here's my niche this is my strength I don't have to be a preacher I'm not saving these people I don't even like the term helping but I do feel like I am helping right it's like how can your needs be met that's a helpful thing yeah but being aware of that that it could come across as a hero complex too so I thought I I would I would be less worried about coming across as a coming with a hero complex I think you should you know you should take a little bit of self-credit for for helping people like there's nothing wrong with that I mean I've all you know I've always you know highlighted that it tends to be when when you when you don't really understand autism or you don't really you know when you're growing up like you tend to like come across things and issues in life and and look at look at like the reasons for it and these these are all not to do with autism and you're like okay I I speak sometimes and I upset people I think that I'm good at this oh I must be a narcissist or things of that nature so I think we're kind of a bit more cautious around well I don't know I'm definitely you nailed it the positive we think very negatively on ourselves and it's harder for us to focus on the positive just as we think of others it's easier to see the negative things people do is sure positive things they do and it's so you're not allowed to be black and white in this world where there are people I love very much very deeply who have done horrific things to me but I still love them and it's tough one right like you have to remember the human aspect is that everyone has faults and I guess what I'd want to end this with you are just kind of like conclude three people is that at the end of the day you can only control yourself and your actions right and so I wish everyone would feel this way because I think it would help out because if it's like look you can only control yourself and your actions I'm asking for this adjustment so that way I can better control my actions I can better be myself I can better perform I can better better better other people okay it's not about me personally you're asking for your needs because I'm going to adjust this so that way you can be better met and vice versa then you're going to adjust so I can be better met it's a meeting in the middle so I wish that this weird way it's like we would all be more aware of our own actions and their impact you know where is the line of you're asking for an accommodation that is unreasonable you're asking for people to do things that is a little tough you know so I think the acknowledgement of that that you're asking someone to change their actions to benefit both of you especially in work so I would say in every relationship right like my friend 30 minutes I gave her 30 minutes I'm not mad anymore because she's coming on time I set her up to succeed you know and I think that is the big focus on an adjustment on an accommodation on a modification is that you are setting people up to succeed and I always make a really mean joke so if they fail it's on them I set you up I put you on your pedestal I did everything and if you're not going to do it we got problems I'm really being satiristic I know you I can tell I can tell yes you know well I had to make sure to clarify that and the podcast boom that cross sox but yeah no I mean it I think that it is a two-way street you know you can control your actions you can ask for these things you you know one of our people I don't know I just just want to say before before we move into our Instagram question and the song of the day and all that I just wanted to share my my story because I don't talk a lot about my work on on podcasts because I'm I'm I'm wary about the crossover between these two worlds you know independent thought versus part of an organization tends to be a bit but I I started at this amazing organization and that did a lot of work that does look a lot of work and inclusion in different different areas and it was it was kind of something that I picked up during COVID so I started I started working online and I've stayed working online since even even though the office is like other side of the country and you know my my journey through that was that I came across I came across a few hurdles shall we say around you know my my mental health in the workplace and around accommodations in the workplace and I was given a job coach that was kind of one of the the first accommodations that I got and you know this this person was like there's been a few people who've come in to try and help out and the organization's paid for them and stuff because they're great they're awesome but you know this what this one person called called Avril such an amazing amazing woman and she actually has advocated for me on many occasions you know outside her sort of job coach she kind of role you know and over time you know being able to to understand where the difficulties are put accommodations in place you know the things that were negatives are now just erased because of my accommodations and so I'm left with all this space and this clearhead and this you know the ability to be creative and they have actually done things that are not deficit based you know they've done things they've adjusted my role they've given me different things to do in different places and a lot of space for creativity and you know I'm happy to say that I'm I'm permanent in my job now they're getting me into do some more presentations and things for the organization which I'm very happy about they're meeting your needs and then you're meeting my needs right like even more like now and in a lot of cases my you know Avril always says to me you're the person to go to like everyone talks about you even though they don't know that I work with you and I'm like oh my god like so that's just that's just an idea and you know this this organization is amazing I'm not saying that it's going to be all all like that for everybody but there is there is hope and I you know if I were you to speak in it earlier about you know you come to a crossroad and do do you bail or do you know try and try and work stuff out and for me it was nailing down exactly what I had issues with trying to come talk to my manager and think of accommodations at work and them being whole wholly for it and it worked perfectly and yes and I love that because I had the same thing in college I had Danny Ness in college I hadn't had seizures for like five years and then they hit out of nowhere and I was in and out of hospitals and everything and Danny Ness would just be like hey professors we need you that was my Avril and I always make the joke I want to be people's Avril I want to be people's Danny it's Ness for the workforce because I think that's what people need you know we can't always do this in betweeners like hey this is what's going to help you this isn't I'm glad to hear a job coach took that on too because a lot of them don't you know so I'm like yay but yeah I feel like when you have that person who knows you who knows your potential who knows you're just a rock star and would do great things and supports you to do so so even if you fall they have your back it's hugely important and yes I will tell you like workplaces that have accommodated needs for people I always get calls they're like wow our productivity went up whoa like we're doing better I'm like yeah because their needs are being met you got excited employees you're letting them be creative I had a school I was working at it was funny because there was lots of drama but I just ignored it it was all online at the time so I was like I'm going to just keep pushing along and I got the district was like you were one of our top artist piece of the year from Parrot Survey you know if you're like only one person on your case you can get a hold of the parrot right and I was like whoa but that was because I had kind of just you know through virtual learning was able to make my own accommodations and just make it work and you get used in situations where you have no accommodations you get used to negativity all the time so it's like it's a really like punched her face you're like whoa something positive oh my god I'm an asset to the team like you are it's like you got hired for a reason you know and I think that's something I have to remember especially as I you know a lot of schools are offering me jobs they had a school year you know they're like oh get you back in person so I think that you know setting yourself up to succeed is on you and on your company and when it's right it's right right like it was the right moment for your company you're like I need help they're like yes and it builds and that's a good thing and we need more of that I think that's what's missing in the workforce is that two-way streetism of I help you you help me the double double empathy in practice yeah and that's where that I feel like if we get rid of the deficit based model I know a lot of UK businesses actually are lessening it which makes me excited the UK is very far ahead of the United States on this front a lot of us make jokes we're like wow we got to go up you know you know and then you go to India where they're finally acknowledging disabilities and I say that and I don't want to be biased against India because I have to work with people in India who are very happy that they fought really hard for it to finally become a thing and so I don't want to undermine the Indian culture and this is not Native American I'm not I didn't I didn't pitch in because I have seen a phenomenal group of people coming out and fighting for rights over there same thing in Indonesia and our Asian countries so I think that the world is a spectrum on this front the jobs are a spectrum and that deficit based model is a step in progress is at least we have accommodations but we need to keep going and I think that's where people get stuck they're like no I want to stay here I'm like let's keep going look you accommodate you and I and we flourish in a company right like flourish we want to work we'll do extra work we work extra hard so I think it is important to note that like if your needs are met you're gonna do better because instead of being like I have a marker and I'm exhausted you can go be creative you can go do what you need to do you know I always make the joke I'm like I said having a seizure I get to go be with kids longer you know just bad I use a lot of dark humor I like I love the dark I don't use it a lot on the podcast but oh I'm sorry I made you use it a lot no no no don't so don't worry about that yes gallows humor is I pass them it's beautiful I will say that you have to acknowledge darkness and make light of it and that's what gallows humor is and that's what I feel accommodations and adjustments could be too in the world looking at your shadow will make it beautiful yeah we overcome it you know and overcoming it looks different for people in your case it was getting your needs met for me it's getting mine actually no for everyone it's getting their needs right I do want to leave you leave you guys this this question segment saying that you know keep keep trying and don't just don't give up I know it's tempting but you know you need to stick at it and find jobs find places sure that the benefits and the you know the disability benefits and things of that nature will help tide you over but it's not for everybody but for a lot of people you know trying to find a good workplace and a good work is a really good idea I don't think it's something it's sometimes it's just it doesn't work it doesn't have to be your bad or their bad it just didn't work right and so every experience in your life whether it be good or bad job related or not is going to build on each other and learn from them take this as a learning opportunity you know every time I had to leave a job I was like what went well what didn't for the position at the um charter school for example I was like I should have gone in there with my accommodations I shouldn't have waited you know I should have I mean they took two months to hire me I should have my accommodations done and I learned that and for my new job my accommodations were already done made a huge difference coming in with like boom you know you can get some momentum you know and so that's why I said it's kind of just like think about this as a way to adjust right okay what went well what didn't I actually literally write out a list of pros and cons like and then learn from them what do I want to tweak what's on the company what's on me and then you move forward I do this whether or not it's with a relationship like when I used to break up with someone I do the same thing I'm a systems girl I like my systems so yes my pros and cons lists I threw them away I burned them because I didn't want to sing all of them but like you know life is paying but life is is also there to learn from it's a beautiful disaster it's a you know complex thing that's neither good nor bad sometimes it just is so remember that we love to be so black and white and we can be right by pros and cons lists I can be as black as white as I want to be but with life itself can't be so yeah don't give up thank you for that Karen of course thank you um so let's let's move into where we actually have one question with my very poor organizational skills of doing it no self insults no half an hour before the the podcast started but we do have a question from Isaac Jackson 133 what is one perception of autism in the workplace you wish you could change that's a great one that we don't understand social cues all the time and so you have to walk on eggshells um it's a little frustrating when like and I say it comes from a place of care this is a great example of this is a place of care like this is great but I've been in a place where I had people be like don't touch Karen she's autistic and I'm like I'm a hugger you can ask me too you know right because there are some of us who do like the physical touch but for someone who didn't that would probably be like oh I'm really glad thank you you know but for me I was like ask me so I think that there's this edge sort of blanketing everything you know like all autistics all autistics my favorite is one girl was like you don't look autistic and I was like what am I not a guy that's what autism looks like and the fourth thing was bright red like um no I was like well I'm not doing this a bunch and she was like so I think that kind of remembering there's a stereotype there are some people who meet the stereotype there is no shame in that but I wish that people would ask you know and that you gotta treat people I don't want them to ask I want them just to do what they did Karen so get over it gotta treat them as an adult as an individual yeah and you know I've also worked with someone with autism who was a nightmare who didn't want us asking and so it was I felt so bad for the school because there's one like me was like just ask me I'm easy going the other one was not was a nightmare was like don't ask me this I said it did it did it so I kind of get where they're at though so I wish something that would take us to edge sort one I wish that some autistics would self-reflect realize that you know yeah like this is tough secondly is I wish that there wasn't always a blanket solution for everything you know like there's like tiered so like ask communication bridging the gaps in relationships bridging the gaps in the workplace you can make adjustments and accommodations and that's how you do it everything yeah I think I wish that people would just ask and not assume so I guess that'll be my overarching my little blanket is I wish people wouldn't assume as much autism because yes I'm considered very high-functioning which I was like you laugh I'm like okay so you're not just high functioning you're very very high functioning I guess so you know I've had doctors be like there's no way you're autistic you're too social and my doctor starts laughing she's like yeah and then you over stimulant credit and she's gone so you know I think that's the problem with workplaces is they've been fed this either you know we just aren't social and so I think that there needs to be a talk about this a communication about hey like talk to your individual it just seems like don't assume that because I'm autistic I can't tell you how many times I've applied to the job just I tested this theory out where I put I was autistic they wouldn't even interview me and yet if I said I wasn't I would usually get into the interview yeah because of the assumption so I just wish there was more of a treated as an individual basis you know so that's the you know the negative I don't want to say negative but the struggle some people have are not the struggles of others so I mean part of the thing I wish businesses would do is have a meeting about accommodation have a meeting about needs and adjustments like like what they do in my workplace yes it doesn't need to be like a massive meeting or anything it could just be like a half an hour kind of ongoing thing that you do by weekly or monthly or you know just at least something and actually ask the businesses to start doing that they were like really I'm like let's just try it but a lot of people you have to adapt things and try things out my god oh my goodness what is this you're met you your sarcasm is rubbing off on me I'm getting into like a sarcasm hole I'm very used to sarcasm because of my wonderful absolutely not sarcastic dad oh no my husband taught me sarcasm and his whole family is so they always say the best way to learn a language is to be fully submersed in the culture that is the Gilmore's that I am happily married into they're all very sarcastic I used to cry you know so I think that giving us the opportunity to learn I guess would be my last moment like there's so many times where I'm working with businesses and they think that we can't learn we're like suddenly like we are who we are and I'm like no everyone can learn you know so it's like give me the opportunity okay I made a mistake let's learn from this right do I need an accommodation or can I learn something new likes okay well um I think that probably leads us to a nice sort of ending to that Instagram question so it's time for song of the day Karin do you have your song ready ready and waiting oh was I supposed to do that it's okay you can you can we can what was that about organization skills I thought I sent it to you oh you may have actually let me have a look it was a while ago people and you know this is an accommodation he's doing for me he's helping me find it you know wonderful wonderful Thomas yeah so modest Thomas is helping me out I'm not used to being helped up it's a little I'm used to helping everyone else I don't remember what song I chose isn't it come together let's come oh maybe we'll go come together no I don't like the Beatles and then the reason I chose this song I don't know if I'm supposed to say it or do you no go for it please the reason I chose this song was I wish people would come together more the other one I almost chose is why can't we be friends which I'd almost rather listen to like you know why can't we be friends why can't we be friends because I think that so much in the world it's us versus them right now and I mean American politics worldwide yeah I really wish man I'm stuck can we just do why can't we be friends instead we can we can do like we'll put them both on the playlist thank you sorry guys you have two songs two friends two songs you know I just right and it's about coming together more and I think that's something that's missing right now and I've talked to a lot of people and it's like kindness is a rarity I want kindness to come back so well what's the artist for we can't be we can't be friends why can't we be friends war oh maybe this is the place I found yeah provided by youtube by avenue records we'll find it it's we can't be I think most people know what that song is just for my little rendition these are older songs I didn't watch people I don't know these songs oh well expand your horizons I don't know I always tell people when it comes to life and things and overcoming things we're having a tim guns make it work moment you've ever seen project runway he's always like make it work make it work make it work um so whether or not I'm working with a student on their IEP working in one-on-one tutoring working as an advocate I'm always trying to have make it work moments so yeah I think this comes to the end of our chat Erin thank you have you enjoyed your 40 or t experience oh yeah I have thank you you did a great job I'm very glad and if you have enjoyed the 40 or t experience yourself you can find the podcast anywhere pretty much anywhere under your podcasting streaming services including youtube spotify apple podcast google podcast you and social audio do the same thing you can get it anywhere yeah I add the link to my link in by the way so I'll add the link once we're done thank you and um of course and if you want to stay up to date with my daily life the kind of stuff I do that isn't content creation the best place to do that is instagram uh and of course if you want to get in contact with me to be able to be on the podcast or to get me on as a guest to do some public speaking or some modeling uh please go to my website tomshenley.co.uk and that's the spiel from me don't if many people stick around to that spiel you know like I think there's like a drop-off rate for people like just about the point where they know that it's going to be the end of the video and then they kind of switch on tone of one but why I actually added you on youtube by the way I didn't know you the youtube channel so I listened to the spiel thank you very much Corinne anyway I hope you all are doing well and I hope you have a lovely day thank you very much Corinne and we'll see you later bye guys