 103.9 FM, WOZO Radio, Knoxville. Ladies and gentlemen, Digital Freethought Radio Hour. Hello and welcome to the roof of the Digital Freethought Radio Hour and WOZO Radio 103.9 LP FM right here in Knoxville, Tennessee. We're recording this on Sunday morning, September 19th, 2021. I'm Larry Rhodes or Douter 5. And as usual, we have our co-host, Wombat on the line with us. Hello, Wombat. Freshly vaccinated from the flu. Freshly vaccinated from COVID. I'm feeling stronger than ever. Did you get your booster yet? I got my boosters already. Yep. Oh, really? Everyone in our laptop knows. Nice monster. Yeah, cool. Our guests today are George Brown, the second and a half, or Brooklyn. Hello. Hello. Dreadpire Diggs, Gary from Canada. Hi there. Digital Freethought Radio Hour is a talk radio show about atheism, free thought, rational thought, humanism and the sciences. And conversely, we'll also talk about religion, religious faith. God's holy books and superstition. Wombat, what's our topic for today? Don't you dare vaccinate me. I believe in Jesus. And then we'll have that conversation coming up. But before we do that, I'm going to fill it up. Dreadpire Diggs for our weekly invocation. All right. So this comes from the Kanai Peninsula Borough Assembly. I'm called to invoke the power of the true creator of the universe, the drunken tolerator of all lesser and more recent gods, and maintainer of gravity here on earth. May the great flying spaghetti monster rouse himself from his stupor and let his newly appendages ground each of us in our seats. Raw. I wonder where the post for praying has come from like this. Like I wonder where that comes from. At least as far as ASL comes, it means bag, right? But like maybe for, what do you think? Well, I've heard other descriptions saying that it's a position that you have submission that you put your hands together like this so you could be handcuffed or manacled. Wow. Wow. Wow. Dread ideas for the post for prayer. Yeah. So he's doing the spaghetti pose. I like that. It just looks like the quab there. Yeah. George, let me tell you something. Oh, go for it. One other thing about praying. If you get into the full bodily position of praying, you're down on your knees and you have your hands together, which is even more submission. Yeah. It's crazy. A pose of submission. George, it's good to see how you've been since last week. Well, I'm older. You don't look at being older beats the alternative to being older. So I always am grateful. I'm grateful, but I'm not supplicatingly grateful for another day on the planet. And having said that, I'm still investigating the effect upon all of us throughout history of psychopaths, you know, that the concept that psychopaths have been ruling us in various ways forever, you know, psychopaths like our late departed president in the United States. You said departed or do you mean just kicked out? Well, he's not there. He's not on the one. Okay, okay, okay, okay. Let me give you another direction for your psychopathy study. What's that? In your psychopathy study of psychopathy, psychopathy might want to look into why they want to rule us. Well, that's a hard part. The other part of what I'm really interested in is what are called cluster B personality disorders, which is a whole group of disorders. Massive personalities? Anti-social personality disorder is more. But I mean, borderline personality disorder is one of them. Narcissism. George, I think I can wrap this up. I think it takes an incredibly interesting person to say, I want to be in charge of everything, literally everything. Can I, is that a job? I'll take that job and like actually go through that. I want to be your boss, your boss, your boss. Can I just be everyone's boss? But you deserve it. You deserve to be the boss of everything. Now, there's the client that's crossing the sand, but I still feel like the person who applies for that job has something about them that's very interesting. Well, usually, yeah, usually there is like why they became that way. The insecurities that lie behind the disorder. Or maybe it's like, hey, there's just a problem that needs to get fixed and this is the main fix in it. We're going to have to figure this out. I've imagined not everybody who goes for that role is bad. Well, you know, I'm talking about, I mean, it's equal opportunity disorder. So, you know, Idi Amin was a great example of it, you know, Saddam Hussein. I mean, we're all in this together. You know, the guy in Israel who just lost out. But, you know, the people who run corporations, I mean, they're all over, you know. Let's see. So, Dred Pirate Higgs, what's going on with you? How you been? Good. Good. Yesterday or Friday, I should say, we had our monthly past at, so we gathered at the church and had a big feast and it was all good. And then tomorrow, Mark this, tomorrow is talk like a pirate day internationally. Oh, tomorrow is that day. Tomorrow is the day. September 19th every year or so. We had an important corporate visit on Tuesday. So, I'm glad it's on a Monday. Yeah. Okay. Cool. And have you been, okay, so have you been? Oh, no, it's today. No, it's today. It's the 19th. I'm one day, I'm one day behind. You're like a person that just forgot Christmas happened. We're like pirates. All right. So, can you give me some good popular pirate phrases that I can use in my belt? Well, I give you the two favorite letters. Because I only know. They are R and C. All right. All right. All right. I only know I'm the captain now, which is originally very priority, but it's very modern. I think it means something. Here's one. Talk to me. I ate some pie and it was delicious. Oh, man. So it's an eight. I did remember saying this shirt before, but I was wondering what's the exponent referred to. That's, that was a rough one for me. Okay. So for anyone who's listening over the radio, he's wearing a t-shirt that has a bunch of mathematical equations. And it basically means I ate some pie. Basically. Yeah. Very, very cool. Larry, how you been? Oh, he's on mute. You're on mute. You pushed mute button. There we go. Doing fine. Getting older like George. Nice. We all are. Hey, that's not a unique thing to just you two guys. Yeah. No, no, like I said, like he said, it's better than the alternative. It's true. Not getting older. Okay. Okay. And we're also going to play a little thing called what's on your shirt? What's on your shirt, Larry? Tell me what's on your shirt. Oh, it's nautical ropes and knots and some ships and this deep blue sea. Nice. It's kind of piratical. It is. It is. It is. It is. And it's good representation. So we're talking today about something I heard in the news today or earlier this week. And I try to do when I wake up in the morning is not read any news, but Google has a good way of force feeding it to me somehow in some way that I don't want to get it. And get it on the watch even when I'm looking to watch something. I know. And it's the most. It's the smallest little earworms that changed the entire course of my thinking for the rest of the day. I'm trying to block them out. But I didn't see something that I thought was kind of alarming because the things that do indirectly harm me or the people that I care about are the things that like pop out the most wise I'm thinking about them throughout the day. And so what I saw was that there is religious groups asking for exemptions for vaccination based on religious grounds. And this is in America. So this is largely focused on an American topic, but Canada is also America. So I wonder if it's happening over there too. Basically, religious groups are saying, Hey, if we choose, well, since Biden has said, Hey, I think any business that has more than 100 people should get vaccinated or have regular tests for the people who don't want to get vaccinated. So that way we can curb this, you know, sudden second wave spike that we're all facing as a nation and get safer overall because it won't work unless we all participate in this to somehow or in some capacity. And so what I'm thinking is there are a lot of religious groups that are like, I don't want to get vaccinated. I shouldn't be allowed to. I shouldn't have to be mandated because on religious grounds, I don't have to get vaccinated. That's such a that's such an interesting excuse. It's dumb. Where does it come from? And so Larry, it sounds like you want to say some things because I know I got some stuff too. Well, I mean, there's so many passages in the Bible that tell you to obey the authority of your government. Let's see. I've brought up one or two here. The Bible speaks decisively on this issue. Romans 13 one and two say obey the government for God is the one who put it there. Sorry, excuse me. I mean, there's like 100 other ones. There's Romans 13 two. Sorry. That's all 13. X 5 and 29. Yeah. I remember. Go ahead. I remember a classic verse from Jesus where someone asked him, Hey, so should I stop taxing? And what you're telling me to pay money to tie the God? But does that mean I should stop taxing from Caesar? And Jesus says, No, what belongs to Caesar belongs to Caesar. What belongs to God belongs to God. Don't change anything that you're doing for the government, including slavery, by the way. Keep all that. But here are some extra rules from God. I'm just like, Oh, these are still pretty bad. And I think the takeaway is like I can misconstrue any information from reality to make it fit my ideal interpretation of religion that I can follow. So if I want God to like my favorite music, I can make a version of a Bible passage, you know, be in line with that. But on vaccinations, that just seems like something really dangerous not to fall and step with dread. What do you think? Well, we have here in British Columbia, a vaccination passport program. I think I might have mentioned this last week where you have to go online through the local health authority and get a QR code, which which you then take to the bar or restaurant or whatever. And the blur is on. Yeah, I find like putting in front of my body. But yeah. Yep. It's hard to see, but on the radio. Yeah, yeah. But so anyway, the the provincial doctor, you know, the head doctor of the province there in writing up this order. There's all these voluntary, you know, services like restaurants and pubs and all that kind of stuff, but has excluded religious gatherings from having to participate in this. Oh, so this is taking it up to the next level is not only are they looking for exemption on religious grounds, but now not even having to abide by the rules that the rest of society is being told to conform with. So now what is this based on? Because what's the ruling that they're using? Because I can I can try to steal man it, but I don't get it even in that sense. So I'm wondering. You know, the I think the conversations did not happen in public because it was Bonnie Henry is the provincial head doctor just came up with her order and just said who's included and who's excluded. So, you know, you can still go to City Hall. You can, you know, there's some essential services that you don't need to have this but, um, you know, all these other public functions you do except religious groups. Yeah, Larry it's a little arbitrary. Larry I've been like an essential worker during the first wave and it was like, hey, you're a list of essential workers. You got your fireman. You got your police. Yeah, scientists that are actively making face masks, media and stuff like that. And essential workers pastors too. I'm just like, okay. Uh, wait, hold up. What was the last thing you kind of pastors, pastors, pastors. But don't they make congregations of people who like all gather in one big place and like sit next to pews and like, isn't this actively essential? Couldn't they do that over zoom? Like, do they like what's going on here? I wonder what's crazy. I was kind of freaking out. It does seem arbitrary. Larry, I'll throw out this rule to you. Do you think there's grounds for separation between church and state for a person who's religious to say government can't tell me what to do if it conflicts with my religion? Well, obviously, I believe in separation in church and state because the state has the ultimate authority over you. They can take away your freedoms. They can arrest you, throw you in jail. We have many protections written into law that would protect us against unfounded arrest and closure. But you give that to a church. You give the kind of power to a church or bring the church's rules, their Bible rules into the government and you got no protections, pretty much. And this was pretty much what happened during the inquisitions. Four hundred years of the church having their authorities go out and round up people, bring them in for no other reason other than like blasphemy or non-belief and taking all the positions, throwing them in jail, letting them out or just outright killing them. I mean, you even have to go back that far, even early America, witch trials just like, hey, a group of girls called you a witch and now you're going to die. I'm like, I was just making weeks. Well, not only that. Think about this, even in Christianity you have Catholicism and Protestantism. Which one is going to be in the power? I mean, if Protestantism gets in, they may be the first target would be Catholics to round them up and bring them in and make them all Protestant or kill them. That kind of stuff. It has happened before. If I had to make my choice between the two, being controlled by a church state or at least the government state, at least I prefer the government in the sense of I can have impacts on some manner and how that's going to conduct my life. Whereas with the God point of view, I have no inference and the book's already written multiple thousands of years ago and you follow that to the T. And I just find like I'm terrified by the concept that despite hard evidence to show that vaccines are helpful and medicine is a good thing. That there are people taking the staunch position of no, because in my impression of God, I don't feel like taking a vaccine and therefore I don't have to because I have this particular superstition. I feel like that's such a dangerous place to be. George Brown, I don't want to bias the conversation. Do you feel the same way? How do you feel as someone says I don't have to be vaccinated because I'm religious? No. I'm laughing. I reject that argument. I mean, they are saying that they are given license to be a spreader of the disease. That's what I'm hearing. The other thing I've been looking up aside from just horrible people the history of horrible people is I've been reading up on typhoid Mary and her position was you've got to let me out of this quarantine because my freedoms are being abridged and so they let her out and she was told well you can't cook for people anymore because that's how you're spreading the disease and she said okay your honor I won't do anymore cooking but it was the only thing that she knew how to do for a living she became a launderess for a while but it paid one fifth of what she could make because she was a cook so she eventually went back to cooking and of course a few more people died the important thing about typhoid Mary is that she was not a she had no symptoms she was asymptomatic but the main thing here I mean she finally got locked up again for good but the main thing here is that these people are saying to me to spread the disease because God I don't care what the because is these are people who are putting the rest of us at danger of losing our lives right and this simply should not be allowed in a civilization which we are I think last time I checked I thought we were I'll throw out the scientific guidelines it's not so much that not vaccinating keeps you from getting the disease what it does is it helps you fight it off faster because it trains your body to know what to anticipate and that gives it less opportunities to mutate when you are infected and then reduces the chances of you passing on a mutated version of the virus to another person and so on and so on where it spreads and now there's a new mutant out that isn't as effective to the vaccines that we all are getting the people who are vaccinated this is all about putting up a barrier wall of hey don't virus you we're going to be ready for you and by the time you know we go through like one or two ways it will be so dispersed that you won't have enough you know people to actually successfully infect anymore maybe you'll go away but that only works if we all get vaccinated right so it's not a it's not a hey do it if you want to do it it's more of like a hey this is a group effort to get rid of a disease it's actually hurting people and even if you are infected and don't want to get vaccinated that doesn't mean that you can't still hurt other people by transmitting a really infectious disease despite the fact that you're asymptomatic it's not just about you George a second hand up what's up yeah so what are we going to do with the people who say you know I you know either God tells me I don't have to wear a mask to get vaccinated or freedom freedom I'm free you know this is a country we make their lives inconvenient by making them test at least once a week that's that I think that's which I believe is totally ineffective well how about we we simply quarantine these people and we'll bring the food you know how many you know bring them cottage cheese and rutabagas and you know we're talking a huge portion of the society the population like over 50% isn't it it's like 50% over right now right some states and then yeah especially you say some states but like what what are we at like 60 but facts and so I'm thinking is like tier it to weekly tests if you don't want to get vaccine which is what was part of the mandate and if you are working and you are infected and you infect other people I think that should have repercussions on the corporation that hires you or the job that hires you like let's put dollars to actual dollars and actually make this really convenient for the people who are employers so that they have to take the onus and be like okay we'll screw this I'd rather hire people who are vaccinated and take care of themselves and people option to actually harm other people through enact what's that oh what's up hey what's up George you know what I'm what I think I'm seeing here where I live is that there are employers that are putting restrictions on their employees you know you can do whatever you want to at home but here you wear a mask yeah I've seen that here you here you prove that you're vexing I'm talking about like Dollar Tree Dollar Tree for instance which has a big sign in the window that says masks what does it say masks suggested but not required right and then they switch to required for a little bit and then they switch back to the suggested but require exactly which is like saying I'm a little bit pregnant just a little bit yeah I'm really so Larry it sound like you were going to say something did you not like the idea of weekly tests for people who choose not to get vaccinated well I mean you can be tested Monday morning and that contracted by Monday afternoon and then you're spreading it what before the next week comes around right and only takes what three or four days to get to the point where you're spreading it and what good is that I mean you're already contaminated you know doesn't more people at least so it's it's a bare minimum which really doesn't do a whole lot of good sure I like the idea of it since it was like hey you don't want a tiny little needle sticking to your arm that you can barely feel well how about a giant q-tip stuff down your nose that hits the back of your your mouth and you have to have that happen to you once a week and you got to drive to the place for that to happen or you could just take the quick needle and be called and be done you can even there's even one-shot variants like what's more convenient for you like if you don't want to be penetrated either way smaller hit the smaller hit what are you doing like I but yeah I agree with you I agree with you from you from an actual utility point of view it's not good but I do like the inconvenience factor because I think what this comes down to is when I talk to people who haven't gone vaccinated yet it's because they live in a bubble that they don't want to pop of information or of particular ignorance and they are choosing based on the information that they are allowing to open themselves up to to not I think it's particularly egregious that religious leaders for no reason other than freedom they're not for freedom and therefore obedience to God and obedience to them but then the religious leaders use religion to tell people not to take the vaccine that putting their lives and other lives at risk for no good reason I wish what we could do is just document this so well that from two years from now when everyone's like no but Christians love vaccines right Christians were always about supporting vaccines like no here's the hard truth of it here's all the video Dredd what's up I was just going to say um never forgotten but I'll actually I just want to give a shout out to whenever regular watchers here Loma it's his birthday today so happy birthday Loma happy birthday happy birthday well how about we take this as a break for the second half there maybe I'll remember what I was going to say yeah maybe this is a digital free thought radio hour on WOZ radio 103.9 LP FM right here in Knoxville Tennessee and we'll be right back after this short break 103.9 FM WOZ radio Knoxville hello and welcome back to the second half of the digital free thought radio hour I'm doubter 5 and we're on WOZ radio 103.9 LP FM right here in Knoxville Tennessee today Sunday morning September 19th 2021 now let's talk about the atheist society of Knoxville or ASK founded in 2002 we're in our 19th year ASK has over a thousand members and we have weekly zoom meetings during Coven for just get-togethers but we've started meeting in person again every week down in Barley's Taperman Pizzeria in Knoxville's whole city out on the patio so hope you can come down there between 5 30 and 8 every Tuesday I hope to see you there say hello to us you can find us online at Facebook meetup.com or KnoxvilleAtheist.org but come visit by the way if you don't live in Knoxville you should still go to meet up and search for an atheist group in your town don't find one start on that where you want to pick up and listen to feedback for the last couple of episodes that we put up we are the God says very enjoyable show I learned something new every episode here what's up hut says where's the audience for this content solid production and interesting people is it predominantly engaged with somewhere outside of YouTube feels like I would really enjoy a drink with you folks and yeah we are a radio show that broadcasts out of Knoxville and we do put these videos up online just as a courtesy but we've had another person leave a comment saying hey Ty you should consider pushing your content to Google podcast manager or some such other device I love listening to you guys and I'm quite sad I couldn't actually find let's chat on a real podcast application it's hard to watch YouTube videos in the car keep up the keep up keep the epistemology coming I convinced this line of thinking has become more mainstream and will make us all better humans maybe they can replace debate host with epistemological host Ty for president that was from Chris Arvi also Ryan Xavier says love your podcast Ty always a pleasure to listen to amazing how you guys tackle topics and discuss them in under an hour love from New Zealand and there's another guy on YouTube who has a handle called let's chat he says very nice show and then of course status trading room with ever dedicated comments and he got into a really nice debate on the last episode that we had but basically is always a good friend of the show we really appreciate your comments at us but thank you everybody it seems like the common question is hey how do we find your podcast Larry could you help us out with that oh the podcast is generally just go to whatever your podcast app is on your iPhone or computer and do search for digital free thought we should be the only one with those two words in it or you can search for the entire thing digital that already are but we are on quite a few different podcasts at this point yep and what also free thought is one word it can be one or two I think in our case it's two words ok and I'll start posting a link to the podcast in the actual YouTube descriptions but thank you so much guys for leaving comments we really appreciate them we're going to be talking about a little bit more about the idea of religious freedom to infect other people with really terrible diseases and shouldn't there be a guideline for that because obviously if this was a how do I put this we are a Christian nation and if this is a Muslim ideal of like hey I shouldn't have to cover my mouth when I cough that would be cracked down pretty hard I feel like the reason why we give or even having the conversation about exclusion is because we're largely referring to Christian base sugar people I say sugar people because like when you put water on them they melt but for a lack of better names I have noted that you have sent me a link to like a preamble from the flying church of spaghetti monster that asked for people to have privileged to not have to work with unvaccinated people and yet when I saw that page I was like this is going to be taken as a joke despite the fact that the science behind it is accurate and actually better for our culture that people do work away from vaccinated unvaccinated people yeah Australia is quite serious about it so of course I'm friends with them all so yeah I know they're taking it seriously and encouraging other Pastifarians around the world to get this started and to actually make it a legitimate petition you know the right to not have to work beside unvaccinated people there's no reason why you should have to put yourself in harm's way based on somebody else's ideology just to make a living wage for crying out loud right it's like hey I should be able to have a safe workplace right this is what OSHA is all about right well this guy's not getting vaccinated and he's coughing I don't want to get sick or get sick without realizing it and infect my family or kids who can't get vaccinated yet because they're not old enough so can we please fix this problem right now can you move him away or move me away but I don't want to work with this person okay like employers you should be able to step up to that I think it's a common courtesy and I think it's a human right to be able to work in a safe environment just my pipe George what's up in almost identical vein I would like to be able to go shopping at the supermarket without risking my life in order to buy food it's more than items I would like I want the freedom to be able to go hey I like that idea Dredd yeah just to speak further to George's point my wife is a front-end manager for a local grocery store the owner-operator is an anti-vaxxer go figure yeah yeah yeah six members of his family got it did any of them die no no no and he's still an anti-vaxxer he's still an anti-vaxxer yeah so that's the six new mutants released on well I think there were seven-day events and that's George I just want to point out in case in case anybody hasn't seen this yet that there have been four radio talk show hosts in the United States railed against vaccines who have died from COVID in the last month in the last month how many people they also took with them because of their truth their broadcast I think every one of them regretted not having been vaccinated just before he died and the crazy thing is the thing that people who get sent to the hospital for like one for one the number of people going to the hospital for COVID are largely unvaccinated people like the it's a staggering proportion it's not even like 50 percent it's like 90-ish percent of people are being sent to the hospital right now are unvaccinated and the first thing they are all asking for is can I get vaccinated? that's not how the vaccines work you have to get vaccinated way before that vaccines aren't curative they're preventive exactly it's not the cure the cure is everybody getting vaccinated that's the cure and if you don't do that that's the problem then you become the issue Larry it's sound like I was stepping your toes also Dredd you had forgotten something so we're going to come right back to you hope you don't remember what it was okay well before I lose my mind I just wanted to mention that today around three o'clock I'm actually having a a socratic examination with Gal who has not for religious reasons for other reasons decided to be unvaccinated so I'm going to try and get to the root cause of her thinking is that live recorded conversation coffee over talk yes I'm going to ask her if she's okay with it I would like to have that as a live conversation very cool I'll be reaching out I want to see well take it I understand how weird it is with spectators when you're having a one on one deep conversation especially if they start budding in the middle of the day you're going to have to have fun with that give me the deeds afterwards I just want to mention this caution we should never forget that the vaccine contains a chip a little printed circuit which is going to be injected into your veins but it also helps but if you get that chip installed the next chip comes with salsa and then that's really good and once you've had one you can't stop that's what the nutrients are for George really liked that one that made me feel good I want to throw this out I'm a big fan of disc golf I picked it up recently and friend of mine the thing I like about disc golf compared to how I thought of this when I used to do socratic examinations a lot as a hobby it was very taxing from the point of view of the person doing the interview because you tend to have a lot of religious conversations in a day or a lot of political conversations in a day and for the people who are walking by they have a 5 minute conversation that digs in their brain a little bit and they walk away and they have a good rest of the day I'm still sitting at the table making notes thinking about how I'm going to video edit and getting ready for the next conversation that might be an in-depth thing it's very exhausting but when I'm playing disc golf which is my new hobby I don't have to think about any of that stuff I'm just thinking about what disc am I throwing and which way the wind's blowing that's it, that's it and I love it and so when I'm out playing disc golf with friends I tend to not talk about anything political or religious I just tend to enjoy the conversations of the game and whatever small talk we can muster at the point I have a friend who was about to go on a tirade about COVID where he's like, don't they know it's just the flu it's just the flu and I'm like just swallow, tie, just throw your putter, it's not going to be a big deal I'm not going to engage you, I have the choice to say no but the thing is that same dude that same guy texted me about two weeks ago letting me know, well looks like I got the COVID and I'm like, hmm well there's one friend I'm not going to disc golf with for a period of time but I will check up on him because I still consider ourselves friends but it's the sort of thing where it's like I don't want to rub it in his face I don't want to be like yeah it's not the flu is it right and he has a family so like in my head it's like you know you got it you know you got a family you know you have a family you have two beautiful daughters you don't want them to get sick right like you already got it don't you think it's good time for at least your wife or for you to have a serious conversation about your kids about how to stay healthy in this environment because even if you get better you're not helping other people get better you know like even if you don't feel sick you're not helping other people not get sick for the same exact disease that you are infected with right now doesn't that mean anything to you and I don't want to I don't want to have that conversation with them but I've found it easier just to be absent and and and just broadcast this frustration to you guys as a group but it is something that really tears me apart George take yourself off mute my friend and join in yeah um well the following on what you're saying I have a a side topic here which is of course who is spreading the disinformation and secondly how do we turn them around how do we bring those guys over to our side you make lies not profitable and that's not the that's not going to happen anytime soon because delicious lies will always be more marketable than truth right truth is like what are the what are the rest of you what are the rest of you think about about that I mean is it possible to to enlist the pastors for instance to save their flock by doing the right thing dread George I'll give you a tip when you ask a question direct to a person I want to pick on dread part dread part what do you think about George's question jeez that's a tough one I mean if I mean if it ends up usurping their power over their flock by making that kind of a suggestion I mean that's essentially what you're trying to do is convince them that they're wrong as opposed to you know I suppose trying to have socratic examinations with pastors would be probably the best way to go about it I would chime in just only if they're willing to have an honest conversation with you oh yeah I'll never have an SC conversation with them it only works as a fair two-party engagement exactly so no finger wagging that's for sure they have to be open to being wrong and so if you're talking to someone who's has a vested interest and not being wrong you know like that is such a barrier like we've had a president for example who told people not to get vaccinated while he was the first in line to get vaccinated and get treatment for vaccines right so like we clearly know that people who have vested interests or advantage to lie or misinform for their own benefit will continue to do so and I don't think there's any greater industry for false hope than religion it tends to be the case that everything they've been selling has been immaterial and nothing but promises that only come true after you die which is the most bizarre selling point possible I was just thinking another example is Brazil, the Brazilian government prescribing or directing people away from the vaccines to one of these things that the Trump administration was supporting is completely ineffective and this other stuff the ibermectin which is used for horse armor and also for fleas and ticks and whatnot and strangely how people are so willing to ingest a essentially a poison that is not even effective on that thing but not willing to take a vaccine which is that is the crazy thing it just boggles my mind I think we are engaged in a propaganda war right now and we have changed into a propaganda culture in general does my take on so how do we tackle that reality is my question I think Darwin has it in hand they are going to find out the hard way that the vaccines are effective and safe and by having a lot of their friends die it is the only way I can think of it is only through a cultural change it is not going to be a quick fix that people find out in a room human beings need to be evolved to at least interpret data at a higher standard of integrity and that does not happen overnight but we can begin the work now so that the future work has less work to do and that is why you are saying it is still worth valuing truth it is still worth informing people because we do not want to stop them and learning the rules of fallacy learning the rules of fallacy yes before we go to dress just because you have fallacies in your thought process does not mean it is not true just means you can reach a higher standard by kicking them out so get rid of those fallacies and find better ways to prove the things or demonstrate that you do believe to be true and try to do it in the least foolishest way as possible Dredd being a critical thinker is not necessarily about being critical of other people thinking it is about being critical of your own elevating your standard of evidence as critical sources of information that is pretty key I just got a comment here from Loma there was a woman who prayed to God to figure out whether to get her family vaccinated or not and God said no her husband wound up in the ICU hey I will throw this out too because I like this story Mother Teresa this is probably a good time for timing it but how many times do I have to say this is the standard of culture for how we interpret information and propaganda you say Mother Teresa and you instantly get warm little chill fuzzies in your heart of a really kind nice person those have to help people Marilyn Madeline style I hope I got that last name right but here helps the sick sticks with them but the truth of that story is that Mother Teresa is a Catholic church and basically saying whatever she does is the good thing we need to get sick people around her so we can get pictures of her so we can have her do quotes oh she got sick let's helicopter her out get her the best medicine possible get her the best education and then just drop her back into the sick people and I'm like hey hold on a second what's this praying thing does this actually help people or is it the science place that you took her to and every single Larry go for it she thought that suffering was godlike you know the more they suffered the better but as soon as she started suffering she went straight to get the best medical attention she possibly could to stop it and let me tell you something we saw that with Trump I'm sorry I'll throw him out again but it's like how many times have we seen Trump say well the virus will never get to America oh well it's only one case yeah you can drink bleach and get rid of it right is there like a light thing that you can shine on your body and get rid of it like these are all things he actually said it's China's virus it's not really our problem like we'll be like the flu again and it'll get out and then it's like oh I got the flu oh I got the COVID ship me out to the best hospital we'll give you like the latest energetic things and then he goes right back to the White House and the first thing he does is take off his face mask like you yeah it wasn't a big deal I'm like so many lapses in empathy and I wouldn't even consider Trump to be a holy figure or a religious person like if anything he's just corrupt to the core but it's in my opinion just a complete lack of empathy and what I found George we'll get to you put you up on narcissism oh yeah yeah it's we're gonna handle we're gonna take we're gonna tackle narcissism I think it'll be good for a topic next week but I'd say yeah I would say enthalpy is where enthalpy goes to die because with religion you have the excuse to not be empathetic in the here and now you don't have to worry about the consequences of your actions you have this perfect Trump car that says all I got to do is pray to my holy God and I can get forgiveness for the faults that I cause on you and I don't have to worry about these sick people because I prayed to God to get them that now God's favor and that's his problem and I can continue to do whatever I feel like doing whatever I'm comfortable doing in the way that exact way that I like to do it and whenever something non-self-serving comes and approaches me like getting vaccinated so that we as a community can get rid of a disease oh I don't feel like doing that can God give me the excuse yes yes of course because you basically are your own God in your head because your program the version of him that's copacetic to all the other God always seems to know and want to do the same things you do God loves all your music yeah it's kind of weird well God I don't believe in God it's like well I'm offended why are you offended I'm talking about your God not you right so the whole thing is like if you were empathetic and you cared about people if you truly care about God's earth and God's creation or any of the true tenets of what Christianity reports is their own you would get vaccinated period and I can respect the decision that says well listen here my reasons for not getting vaccinated here's my decision but I'm just letting you know it's the wrong decision it's the wrong decision to not get vaccinated you should and I think from the very beginning we were arguing like we need to learn from this incident we need to learn from covid because if we don't learn from this event the next time it's going to hurt us even more because who's to say that another disease isn't around the corner like we had this freak incident we thankfully have a vaccine within a year that's astounding but that could happen every year for the next ten years we could have a brand new disease and if we aren't willing to take care of ourselves we'll either live together or die together George I wasn't going to say anything guys final thoughts let's go around Larry what do you think well we're looking to the church to help us in this vaccination thing I think they're not going to give it they're going to do what they want to do basically for the same reasons that you just mentioned we're not paying them to make the decision and their congregation is paying them and they're all about the money right right and I wish people would just look at that for their own sake I don't think we should leave it to the church to give out truth we should expect people to search for it because if the church wants people and people like the truth that's how you solve the problem right and we've all except for George have been part of a church group like a group thought that didn't give you access to opportunities of critical thinking but we fought out of it and I'm saying we can we can inspire people to do the same thing too and it could be as short as a short chat or through the show or just a willingness to say hey I'm vaccinated like I'm still alive right I care about this this is a real thing these are the sources of information that I think are worthwhile of paying attention to and you know how all the people who didn't get vaccinated got sick and died look at me I'm still here and I'm playing this I'm having fun time Dred final thoughts yeah well we've I'm a member of the BC Humanist Society or Association and they were the ones that had just recently made the point that Bonnie Henry's our top doctors order excluded churches from having to participate in this vaccination passport program so I'm throwing I'm encouraging all pastor farians out there and anyone else for that matter to you know sign the petition to have that have that changed so I'm gonna I'll tell you another good thing about that I made that exact argument to my bosses at my job and I was like hey I don't want to work if there's other people who are sick or choosing not to get vaccinated everyone in my group was first to get vaccinated we have multiple groups inside our building and the way we know for fact there are people who won't get vaccinated regardless of the news that was out I was like I don't want it can I take this guest office guest office like it's corner room and had like its own desk goes beautiful and they put me there for like a year and a month and then when I got out there like we like Tyrone and offices you just take this other office I'm like I got an office now I'm saying it's worth making the argument go with your boss make a point only good things can happen I guarantee you I care about being safety can you make can we make this more safe yes go George last words um I don't really have any today so I'll pass coffee that's a very non-narcissist oh coffee oh coffee will okay well coffee sweetener another topic most Stevia on the market is fake and that is a whole topic unto itself when these guys get away with it with marketing a product and calling it Stevia when it's mostly something else nice talk about olive oil olive oil I didn't even know well I know about Bob with water I can throw that out like to taste a bottle of water isn't even water it's just minerals that people put in there's like proprietary mixtures of minerals but it's just water at the end of the day uh enough out of me guys I think we're at the end of the show and I think we had a good topic I really appreciate discussion always like talk to you where can we find your stuff well I am on YouTube at M-I-N-D-P-Y-R-A-T-E mind pirate I stream this show when I'm on every Sunday at 8 a.m. pacific standard time guys do me a favor if you see this episode on my YouTube channel go over to mind pirate M-I-N-D-P-Y-R-A-T-E right and and and subscribe and subscribe hit that button I guarantee it's gonna be some good stuff because he was just telling us about this conversation he was gonna have with an anti-vaxxer using socratic examination which is this beautiful way of talking to people about anything and so uh George Brown it's a cool dude he's got a lot of coffee tips and we're gonna be talking about narcissism next week he's gonna love that and then you can find me on Let's Chat I'll put the link to our uh podcast there's a lot of people asking about it in the description and maybe even put the audio let me say one thing hey one thing go for it George um okay not so much narcissism as narcissistic personality disorder understood understood understood and then um we will go to put the audio from the videos on Google Podcast Manager maybe it'll give you guys access to these podcasts in the future and make it more easier because we want to spread the word Larry go ahead and take us out Southern Voice of Dreams let's go remember this show is available on Apple iTunes Pocket Cast Alt Altale and on podcast everywhere just search for digital free thought radio hour my own content is available on digitalfreethought.com be sure to click the blog button for a radio show archives atheists and many articles on the subject my book is called Atheism What's It All About it's available on Amazon find my youtube channel by searching for doubter 5 or Larry Rhodes if you have any questions for the show you can email them to askanatheistatknocksfillatheist.org if you're having trouble with religious leaving religious beliefs behind you can get help by going to recoveringfromreligion.org if you're watching this on youtube be sure to like and subscribe this is the digital free thought radio hour remember everybody is going to somebody else's help the time to worry about it is when they prove that heavens and hells and souls are real until then don't sweat it enjoy your life and we'll see you next week say bye everybody bye I heard a voice in my head that told me atheism is true