 Welcome back to the Breakfast in Plostivia, Africa. Some of the papers this morning reported, you know, concern after an attack by Ambanzonian warriors on the president of a Tarabah state. Governor Darius Ishakou, of course, was one of those who was mentioned, and the senator also spoke about, according to the Daily Independent, senator raises alarm about the threat to Nigeria's sovereignty, and that was also in reference to the attack by the Ambanzonian warriors in Tarabah state. We're going to be speaking this morning with the journalist, Jonathan Abang, who of course has covered a lot of these areas, and would be able to clarify with us what exactly the situation should be like in those areas. Good morning, Mr. Abang. Thanks for joining us. Good morning, Mr. Darius Ishakou. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning. I think we were able to Musik claims we could play sound from your end this morning. But let's get into it and tell us a little bit of what you now about the Ambanzonian warriors. Who are they, and what exactly are they fighting for? Okay, now we are doing different forces that they have to attack. For example, these are two different groups. different forces are actually military wing of the separatist movement in the southwestern and northwestern Kailu, basically the anglophone-speaking parts of the Republic of Kailu. Of course, this movement did not start today, it began in the 70s and so, according to the 80s and the 90s and the early 2000s, you know, more and more people became agitated, wanted the anglophone-speaking part of Kailu went to have some sort of referendum so they have the country of their own and sometime in 2017 the Kailu government decided to go to crack down on these separatists just as we saw in the southeast part of the country and in some places the southwest part of Nigeria and of course that conflict has been written on which has led to over 100,000 refugees coming across the border into Nigeria across Aqwaibon, Kroshiba, Benwe, and Kairava states, predominantly. All right, I immediately, you know, started describing them, I immediately started to think about the ESN and those in the southeast so it's a similar way that they both started, is it? Well, not so much of a similar way. The Amazonian French forces have always been there, albeit on the look and they came up much more when the Kailu government decided to crack down, right? And what we saw, of course, they opened up, you know, a window for the proliferation of small arms and weapons between southern Nigeria, not central and not eastern Nigeria, as well as the north-west and the southwestern divisions of Kailu. So why have they not been different? The difference there is that there is a full-blown conflict, a full-blown confrontation across the largest switch of land that you have in Nigeria at the moment. Now, the ESN, for the ESN in the southeast part of Nigeria, you find it just pockets of crisis in, you know, mysterious operations that you can easily identify, but for the Amazonians, as they prefer to be called, it's on a much larger scale than what you have in Nigeria, of course. Okay, so let's also talk about a bit of the fact that, you know, Nigeria seemed to be a home to refugees, especially Cross River State, Tarabah, and even Benway. Could it be that the fact that some of these specimens are here is also posing a threat to us? Most certainly, like I said earlier, it opened up a piece of opportunity for the proliferation of small arms and a like-to-consumersed threat. But, however, this is about the first time Nigeria experiences this kind of situation, where you have refugees from other countries coming in this large scale. So far, the United Nations Refugees Agency, that's the UNECR, and the National Commission for Refugees, migrants and internally displaced persons have registered nearly 70,000, you know, refugees. They prefer to call them persons of consent. This is not a normal refugees. So that's what Protection Officers have called it. But they are over 100,000 registered persons of consent, as it were, from the Abazonia community. So, yes, this situation we find ourselves definitely committed this opportunity for more. So, of course, when you take a look at the social impact, the cultural impact, and what have you, it's going to be so different. But we can't take away the fact that there are some communities in Nigeria, especially when you look at the manga in Tako, which was attacked yesterday. You look at Gengu in Tarabang. You look at Osan Luku government. You look at Bali. You look at the Dung and Income Luku government areas across the world. And some part of Antiquo, in Kioge, specifically in Antiquo, of Benwe State, they share cultural affinity. They appear similar to them. So, it's usually difficult to actually identify who is from where, just by looking at the names, because the names are, it seems like it's only through the accent. And then from some other medical factors that the equations are using to identify to say, okay, this person is a Kemiwuna and this person is in Nigeria. If not, it's really difficult to actually differentiate between the two. But yes, it definitely created room for conflict here in Nigeria. All right. Let's also talk about the borders between these two locations. Do you know much about how poor those borders are if they can simply just cross over into Tarabang State, commit these murders and go back to where they're coming from? Or is it an open area where people just mix amongst each other from different countries? Now, it's an open area, using your own terms, as it is coming from. But it's part of these borders have been the police, of course. Now, there are two major entry points. One is in Kemiwuna, Tarabang State, which is about the highest elevation in Nigeria at the southern Al-Qudom area of Tarabang State. The other point is at the Ecom entry, where there is a bridge which President Muhammad Ibaris, that is specially constructed, are supposed to commission sometime later this year. These are the two major entry points. But on foot, there are over a thousand entry points. Because when you look at the entire stretch of platoons, hills and mountains from the southern Cross River all the way to Tarabang, even going on to the track basin, you'll see how fully weathered there are so many entry points for these guys to cross. You'll hear tales of the questions of concerns, telling you how they spent. Some spent just eight hours to cross over from Kemiwuna into Nigeria. Some spent three days, four days at the case meeting. So it's really porous. In fact, majority of those who have been documented from those hours to over the years, they will tell you that when they cross, it was only when they got into Nigeria that the communities handed over to the police or the state emergency management agencies for the Nigerian immigration services to show you just how porous the borders are. But then again, where they have been camped, the Nigerian Army advised that they should become a minimum of 50 kilometers away from the border. But when you see that the policy of refugee management in the country has moved away from the campaign system and moved CO2 into the integration system where the people live amongst the members of the community. So you find Kenyans easily, who have been registered in the country operating very closely with the international border between Nigeria and Nigeria? So what you're saying is and over time, we've still not been able to fix these porous borders. And it's that easy to really just cross from one country to the other without any hindrance? Yes, yes, it is indeed very easy. Don't forget also that the Nigerian and Nigerian government after the signing of the Baxi Peninsula by the international accord of trust is signed in Green Street and we basically say that citizens of both countries can easily cross to the other and see up to 90 days without getting a visa stamp. So you find most traders, you know, micro-small enterprises that operate in both countries, they easily move between both countries. And because they don't see up to like this, most of them will have a passport. Some of them decree the passport or they just go there. They tell you they want to go buy maybe one item or the other and they cross back with you a couple of days. So these things continue over the time. The Nigerian government has not really taken time. It's even cheaper actually to get into Kerala than to get into Nigeria and we have experienced that before. But nonetheless, these are the recent attacks on the Manga Committee in Takum, Lukaku government area of Teraba State. I would say that I have some concern about the report that around that. Because one, from the report, you could see what it was, it's to Governor Darius Isyaku, Senator Manu Obocha, and I look at the government's chairman who came out to say, look, it was the ambasunia, the first forces that came out to attack our community. And it is strong because I wonder why the ambasunias who come to attack a community who see their own brothers, right? But meanwhile, there was not so much of a force in October when the Kerala Army invaded communities in Kumbhumi Lukaku government area of Teraba State, which is just neighboring to Takum, which was a few days ago. Now, of course, this has continued over time. We have seen that happen also in Kosovo, when the Kosovo achieve on top in the Bakasi Lukaku government area, to harass people who are using fishermen around the axis. So there's something not really right about that narrative, which I expect that will cause a proper investigation should be done about that. I don't even think that, you know, Takum actually owes the 93 Bakasi Lukaku of the Niger army. You begin to wonder how did these guys come into manga and then just leave immediately. Manga is less than 20 kilometers from the Kasimbila Dam. And to drive from Kasimbila to Takum town, you meet no fewer than six military checkpoints. Yes. And it is why that is so is because the existing routes into Takum from where you're coming in from Jali Gubali, Jatau to Takum, where you're coming from a certain Niger through Benwe, you go from Adiko or Gubu to Oguma. At Oguma Junction, the popular route was Oguma-Katsinala to Takum. But that very route, which is just some four kilometers long, is a story of a bandit attack kidnapping, head up from a splashes. So people now use the 130-something kilometer Oguma, Jatau-Akka, Moon, Kasimbila, manga to Takum route, which is much more, it is more popular with commercial motorists right now. So people wonder how these guys invaded manga community in the presence of the militia, despite the large presence of the militia, the Niger state battalion, and they just move away. And it's also a story. Jonathan, for the want of time, let's also look at the fact that it's going to be a two-in-one question. First of all, I know that you have been reporting around that axis. Now, what is your assessment of the relationship of these Cameroonian refugees with the host community? And what is your view of the security situation in Teraba state? Well, the relationship between the, like I said, that they prefer to be referred to as persons of concerns, not refugees anymore, and the host communities are improving in Osir, in Takum, in Bali, in Kashyatakumsili, in Kashyataka, and as well as in Saldana has been one that is very accordion. In fact, Teraba state is the only state hosting refugees and without the campsystem, they do a full intervention approach. As a matter of fact, Teraba is one of the largest number of undocumented persons of concerns from Kenyatta. And why this is true is because many people have their relatives who were in Kenyatta and like that, and vice versa. So, it has been quite a, it's a very cordial relationship, which is why I think they serve them. We need to really take people into this attack. And for the security situation in Teraba, of course, we all review, especially southern Teraba, where, in specificity, Takum, Takum is the home local government of Argentina. It's the headquarters of southern Teraba. And it's not a funny sight to go through Obuma to Takum, which is, like I said, something important that you meet a checkpoint almost 30 kilometers from. So, you're saying that there's a possibility that the Ambersonians, a warrior, are not the ones that kill these Nigerians in Teraba? There's a six-centre possibility for that to happen, yes. But of course, we would like a deeper investigation into this very issue. And that's what I was going to get to now. What would you say should be the Nigerian government's response to this? Eleven lives have been taken. Of course, we've heard of larger numbers before from the bandits and from ISWAP and the likes, but it's still 11 Nigerians that, of course, questions need to be asked about. So what would you say should be the Nigerian government's response? I think for once we have to go deeper. I'm part of a group that we usually call for in-depth investigation for every atrocious killing that goes on. In Nigeria, what we normally see is, okay, 11 Nigerians have been killed, unfortunately so. And then people condemn the ads and call for an investigation. But after two weeks, the whole thing just dies down. And nobody remembers. And these people become, unfortunately, part of a very unfortunate statistic. Now, if deep in-depth investigation is conducted into this, I would like the Niger Police, the Niger Army, to delve deeper into this and fish out the people involved. If possible, there's some sort of a bi-national commission with the Republic of Kenya. So get the Kenyans government of what, as well. There's this tradition that was on between communities in Nigeria and in Kenya, who were part of the Eastern Nigeria House of Kids, where if there's a crime allegedly committed by a community in Nigeria, you'll write to them and you'll fish out these people. And if there's a crime committed by Nigerians in Kenya, the community has to write to Nigeria and you'll fish out these people for them. Okay, so let's quickly. We are working with that commonality, that commonality, our connection. Okay, so quickly, let's share your thoughts on, you know, the Senate's reaction to this. They are saying that this is actually an affront on sovereignty of the country, an invasion for that matter. What's your thought? I mean, seeing that it's not like they were helpless at this point in time. From your perspective and assessment, is the fact that our borders are very porous and the Senate is saying, hey, this is an attack on our sovereignty. What are your thoughts? Well, of course, the Senate is entirely correct, but we'll see the situations that, I remember in the past, when the Niger Army made an encroach on it into Kenberunan territory, the Niger Army came out to say that, oh, it was a tactical maneuver. But of course, your position then said that the morale of the army was low and that they ran basically into a six-year time from Kenberun. Now, this encroach was in Niger territory, it did not start today. The Niger government has been very relaxed in its attitude towards it. If Nigeria, as we believe, is the giant of Africa, what were expected, President Mohamed Uwalu put a call directly to President Borvia of Kenberun to ask him, hey, what the hell is going on? And we are getting reports of the journalists and the rest of them coming into Trabah, coming to Trabah, coming to Mandar, Otakum and Gengu in Trabah, and what have you. What is going on? You summoned the Temurian ambassador to Nigeria to explain all of this. So when this, of course, international politics is all about I'm too sick, whether you like it or not, that's the business for it. So when this thing's happening, because we are just the international leaders calling for an investigation, let's see some diplomatic action. We saw what Nigeria dreamed with the UAE, the airline, over their rapid antigen tests on Nigerians who are traveling out of our country. See the diplomatic that is going on. UAE is retaliated by not renewing work permits of Nigerians in the UAE. We can't think around this that the diplomatic lines to see how to get these reports to stop, whether from the Kenrinan government forces or from the Amazonia defense forces. All right. It's a really, really shocking conversation. I remember also that the Nigerian government at some point was saying that some of the fighters, some of the Boko Haram fighters or the bandits or whatnot, fighters from other countries, and they are mercenaries that have joined, the Boko Haram have joined ISWAP, which basically still meant that foreigners were in Nigeria, killing Nigerians, and not very much was done after that. So I'm not sure what will be different with this one. I want you to talk about what must be done with regards closing up our porous borders. Is it an infrastructure thing, or is it a security thing? How can we close up those borders? I know there's thousands of them across the country, but what must be done to close up those borders? It's an orientation and sensitization thing for me, because if you're talking about infrastructure, let's think at the United States, the United States economy will for instance, even the past president, Mr. Donald Trump, said he was going to build a wall across the U.S. border with Mexico. Did that happen? No, that did not happen. This country was nearly trillion dollars in defense budget, but that still did not work. So to even imagine that there will be a physical border, like a wall or something, like the wall of Jericho or the great world of China, as the case may be, across the Niger-Canada border, there will be, to think quite elephantially, as it were, or to even imagine seeing a unicorn in a thousand years. So for me, it's a thing of orientation and sensitization of the border communities, to get them to understand the importance of, if we see something, say something. But of course, we think our security architecture, especially at the border lines, where you move across most of the communities, there's hardly any government present. You have to find hospitals, schools, and what have you. They're talklets of security infrastructure, such as police divisions or stations or army units or customs or invasions, as the case may be. You have to find any of these. And in the absence of these, where these spaces are, let on patrol or on security, they are told to be involved in the diving pool, coming back in and coming in for themselves. So for me, it's sensitization and orientation strategy. All border communities, the government at all levels, the local, the state, and the federal government, have to come together to advise the means to let community leaders, the youth, the women, the chiefs, the key rights and what have you. The associations, the unions, across all of them, to understand the need to defend Nigeria's territorial integrity. If that is not done, we'll be wasting our time because you can't comment how many soldiers you have, how many policemen you have. You can't have all of them, only the borders. Other internal security situations that are of course demand their attention. How much more diplomatic, I'm not sure what the word is here, but how much more diplomatic strength does Nigeria have? I'm asking this because it seems like Nigeria is continuously disrespected by other neighboring countries in Africa. If you remember also, I'm sure you must have also followed the Itunuba Balala story and how she unfortunately passed on in Côte d'Ivoire. But Nigeria doesn't seem to really care as a country. The Côte d'Ivoire government doesn't also seem to be bothered that, oh, we must do something to ensure that there's justice here. There doesn't seem to be any fear of the giant of Africa in any way. And I want you to compare this with, yes, unfortunately we use the United States as an example. And I keep sharing the story of a journalist, I can't remember his first name, but his last name was Fenster, who was arrested in Myanmar and was sentenced to jail. But of course the United States government stepped in, and it was released a couple of days ago without even spending a week in prison. Why don't we have the same respect for the Nigerian government and for Nigerian people in countries surrounding Nigeria here? Okay, there's a whole lot of issues, a whole lot of issues that have created this problem and it does not just have to be. You look at Nigeria trusting to pull out of the common world themes over issues like some 20-30 years ago, and you'll see how the queen of people are stepping in to say, okay, let's do that. And then you begin to imagine what is happening right now. Now, most of these issues started from our own internal security institutions and our own internal politics. So you find people who are willing to undermine the Nigerian sovereignty for several other reasons and allow these guys to come in and do whatever they want to do. So those guys give us certain vital information to their countries who are able to strategically place themselves in a way that they can easily undermine Nigeria. Let's take a look at that. Now, you have up until some 10 plus years ago, when 90 initiatives started, you know, the strapping measures to transmit the initiatives started, you still find that today most of the extractive sector companies operating in the extractive sector that are not of Nigerian origin, they don't publish their contractual obligations, but they publish in their own countries. So you have companies want to pay UK, Canada, and what that means. If you want to get details about some extractive companies in Nigeria, you have to go to, you know, the companies, the country of origins reports to be able to get this information. And it's because we have been very relaxed with our laws and the judiciary has not helped matters as well. So to find us deals that do not have really helped us. You see Nigeria every time washing muzzles as the big product. Okay, there is a problem with Mali. You send in forces there, some of our brothers and sisters, they die over there and they come back and there is no, there's no, you know, what we call it, you know, you broke out to ensure that Nigerians bring the feet by sending Nigerians to Mali. The U.S. will never set in foot their foot on any soil if it is not going to benefit them in one way or the other. Many people believe that the U.S. lost the war in Afghanistan, but because the defense industries, you know, they made so much money. Then from behind the scenes, you have the opium trade that was going on and what have you and despite that, the war are going on. In Nigeria, we just sent forces everywhere for peacekeeping and at the end of the day, nothing. So you go to a country that you see that is rich in gold, rich in gold, or what have you, and they don't carry your business for a long time. They say for a lot to send our forces down there and look at some point in time, two or three Nigerian companies will step in to mine as some of your... As we cost the down, let me just chip this in and I'm hoping that you are able to, you know, in a few seconds answer that. What can be done in the interim? I mean, I know the fact that you have mentioned that we need to dig further to ensure that the attack was actually carried out by the Ambazonian warriors, all right? So, but what can be done in the interim so we don't have a repeat? We have too many Nigerians in the Kingdom, so many Nigerians. And of course, I respect that the defense intelligence agency and the national intelligence agency as well as the state security services, I would definitely have one or two spies in the Republic of Kingdom. So it's for them to call, make findings, what is going on there. And in the interim, if it was the Kenyans government that sanctioned it, if it was the Kenyans armed forces, which a military general was involved, some of the Kenyans ambassador to the presidency said, look, this is what we have discovered. Either you produce this person or we'll put you out of the country. We'll put the consular general in Calabar out of the country as well. It starts at a risk of death. And then of course, follow up with media propaganda, which is what many people feel to realize that the media at some point in time is also a tool, is a veritable tool in what they call international diplomatic relations. So when you pick up these thoughts about the Kenyans government, the French government would definitely want to find out what is actually going on. And sometimes to in order to get into the room, if you target the modern country, which is France, and do something or the other, and to France, then they are called in order. We'll see that happening in a couple of times in the situation as it were. So the Niger government has to really go tough on this. But we have to be smart in the rooms we're making as a country as well. Because at the end of the, you may just kick us off and then you'll see us at the end of the day. Jonathan Abang, thank you so much for joining us this morning. I truly enjoyed this conversation. Looking forward to speaking with you again. Thank you. And this is where we say goodbye on the breakfast. Thanks for joining us. If you missed out, remember where to catch up. It's simply a plus TV Africa on Facebook, Instagram, and same with our YouTube channel. Same. And also with a plus TV Africa lifestyle. I am Osao Guy, Au Bon. And I am Merci beaucoup. Do have a great day.