 But I'm going to start with a story. So this is George Washington. Now, if you've seen me speak at Word Camp Lehigh Valley before, you'll know that I have a little bit of a motif going here where I talk about the American Revolution or our founding fathers. And George Washington is one of the most interesting people to me, because not only was he perhaps the greatest general of the American Revolution, he was also our first president and America's first spy master. So he knew the importance of creating a kind of secret spy network to help us gather intelligence on the British and effectively communicate with his other generals and the troops throughout the colonies. He created something called the, oh man, I'm totally blanking on this. I haven't had my coffee. I'm going to pronounce it incorrectly, the calper, the calper ring, the calper ring. And this is a page from their code book. So this helped them, again, gather intelligence and write letters to each other without them being intercepted by the British. They would do it in ways such as coded and ciphered letters, invisible ink, and they would even write fake letters that they intended to get intercepted by the British. And this network, this spy ring, illustrates two things that George Washington knew for certain. He knew that getting information as early as possible would best serve the revolution, because if they got the information, the plans of the British, then they could better protect or foil those plans. And he knew the importance of effective communication, because he didn't want his plans getting intercepted by the British, because then they could not possibly win the war. So why am I talking about this? Getting information as early as possible and effective communication? Well, I'm not George Washington, but I do want to bring it back around to everybody's favorite topic at the moment, Gutenberg. With Gutenberg, using it as early as possible and getting that information as early as possible lets us effectively communicate with our clients about their websites and the potential changes that Gutenberg can bring. So that's what we're going to talk about today. We're gonna go over what is Gutenberg and some of the latest updates for those of you who are not sure what it is, but have kind of heard about it. We're gonna talk about how to bring this up with our clients. We're gonna talk about coming up with a plan and then some of the more practical things we can do for those of us who are theme or plugin developers to help us make sure our tools for our clients are Gutenberg ready. The current state of Gutenberg, 3.6.1 came out yesterday. So 3.6, yes. 3.6.2 also came out five hours later. Fantastic. Yeah. Things are happening so quickly that a slide I did last night is outdated. So, well, the major release 3.6 is out and Gutenberg at this point is considered feature complete. Right now they're focusing mostly on bug fixes and optimizations. Okay, a full feature set. You would do that by going to the WordPress plugin repository and searching for Gutenberg and installing it on your site. Yes. Don't be afraid of the reviews. Yeah. Too large because it's too much. Don't be afraid of the reviews. I mean, it's getting updated super frequently. They're on a major release. It also called to action in the latest version of WordPress. 4.9.8 came out. Some of you might have noticed this. There's a big banner that says, hey, the new editor is coming, you should try it. And my small advice on this is don't try it on a production site. You should not test anything on a production site. So, but since that the Gutenberg plugin, their downloads have exploded. I think 17% of all downloads happened the day after 4.9.8 came out. And the plugin itself has been out since like last, over a year it's been out. So, people are really starting to learn about Gutenberg. If your clients haven't asked about it yet and they're like, hey, what's this thing that I see? Should I do it? They probably will soon. And if you don't know what Gutenberg looks like, this is the classic editor. Oh, I guess it's probably too light for this laser point of the work. This is the classic editor. This is what we will be calling pre WordPress 5.0, the editor, yes? Which one's the editor? Which one's the editor? The guy on the left is the editor, yeah. So, again, Gutenberg is going to be the new editor in 5.0. This is what the editor looks like now. This is what it will look like if you install the plugin or when WordPress 5.0 comes out. It switches to more of a block interface. So, right now, when we create content, it's kind of a wall of text. We could put some images in there. If we want to do anything fancier than that, we need short codes or a page builder. With Gutenberg, every piece of content is a block. It's a lot more flexible. If I have 14 paragraphs and I'm like, oh, I want this to be three down, you can just drag that one paragraph and move it down. You can add tables and columns and different types of fun content. So, this is what Gutenberg looks like more or less. It'll change slightly until 5.0 comes out. And then this, this looks pretty small up here, but this is the content that Gutenberg produces, right? So, one of the big questions that I get is, will Gutenberg break my content? And we'll talk about this more in a bit, but the short answer is no, it barely changes the content. It adds HTML tags before and after each piece of content to let the editor know what kind of block it is. Those comments are removed before it gets pushed to the front end. So, the comments are only for the Gutenberg editor to say, oh, this is a paragraph block. Oh, this is a columns block. This is an image block. And the nice thing about this is that your content will be completely intact. It didn't change the way content is stored. So, if you just turn on Gutenberg today, your content won't be affected at all. So, those are some of the basics, but you're all here because you wanna know how to talk to your clients about this stuff. Well, here's a few things about your clients. This also might be true of you. They'll need to be retrained on how to use WordPress. That's the big thing, right? Anytime there's a major change, there's some learning curve, okay? There's a whole theory behind major redesigns and how they're generally bad for a website because users knew how to use your website and now they don't. That's why if you look at Amazon.com, it's never been through a major redesign. It's just been through incremental changes because they want people to always know where the buy button is. This is a major redesign, right? So, they'll need to know, they'll need to be retrained. They'll also need to be prepared on why it's important to upgrade, right? People within the community are saying, why do I need 5.0? I'm gonna fork WordPress, Gutenberg is stupid. But, if you explain to them the importance of why 5.0 is a good thing and why they'll need to upgrade eventually anyway, that'll kind of ease the process, I think. And lastly, they'll have specific questions about their website and what they can expect, okay? So, yes, WordPress is changing. How does that affect me? We're gonna talk about all that. I've also broken the types of clients down into three categories based on the development cycle. There are clients who are completely new to WordPress. You're setting up a new website for them. They just came from competitor and they want a WordPress website. There are clients that you're currently working with. So, these are clients that you're actively developing for. You're halfway through and you're like, ah, Gutenberg's coming out, 5.0 is coming out, what do I do? And then there are clients that you've launched sites for or actively maintain their sites. And those are, the development is done and now there's this major change coming. So, how do we broach this topic with each of them? Well, those who are new to WordPress, that's the easiest. You're starting with a blank canvas, both for the website and for the user. They have no preconceived notions of how WordPress works. This is your best case scenario because I personally think that Gutenberg is easier for new users, right? Because right now, if a user says, how do I change the font color? Oh, well, you need to add this thing to TinyMCE. In Gutenberg, you just say, oh, well, there's a color picker over here that you can do that with. How do I, you know, I need to add a table. Oh, well, you need short codes for that. You don't need short codes for that with Gutenberg. So I think it's a little bit easier for new users. And you don't have like an archive of content that you need to test either. So this is your best case scenario. If a client comes to you today and says, I need a WordPress website, you are hired, you should start right out of the box with Gutenberg and the plugin installed. Clients you've launched sites for. This can be tough because based on the timeline, especially today, we're in mid-August, okay? The thing that is happening very soon that every website owner is gearing up for is Black Friday. They want their websites launched and ready and tested by like October at the latest. So if you come to them today and you say, hey, WordPress 5.0 is coming out probably right before Black Friday. And we should probably update your site. They're gonna say absolutely not. My site works now and I want it to continue to work until 2019. So since there's no active development here, you can explain some of their options. Okay, when 5.0 comes out, you should upgrade because it's probably going to include some security updates and bug fixes, but there is a plugin called the Classic Editor that will completely turn off Gutenberg for you. So for all intents and purposes, you can upgrade to 5.0, but it won't look like or function like the new editor. And encourage them to upgrade as soon as they can. I totally understand, right? I sell online courses and I don't want my website to break right before Black Friday, especially if I'm running a sale. So say I understand let's keep your website the way it is until January. Let's circle back and see what we can do. The other complexity here though is that they've launched their site and maybe they don't have a budget for these upgrades, right? So unless you want to upgrade their website for free, which I don't recommend, you're going to need to work with them and say, okay, this is probably going to take me like 10 to 15 or maybe 20 hours to upgrade and fully test everything. So let's try to find a place to work that into your budget with a proper timeline. Then you have your current clients. And this is the toughest because you just went through like a discovery process and you gave them a proposal and you have a budget and a timeline. And now you're like, hey, here's a giant wrench that I'm just going to throw into the middle of this. 5.0 is coming out and I don't want your website to be immediately outdated even before we launch maybe, okay? So again, you need to tell them what's happening. Communication is important here. Let them find out about 5.0 from you before they find out from that blog post that's like Gutenberg is garbage and nobody should use it, okay? That will let you control the conversation. Be honest and try to help them mitigate the changes and say, look, since we're currently developing it with new content and we have to test some of the old content anyway, I think if we just add like 10 hours to the project and the budget and the timeline, maybe it'll take an extra week, your website will be ready. And I feel like, look, we absolutely, like I understand, but like that's too much money at this point and we really need to be ready by October at the latest. Say, I understand I would probably install the Gutenberg editor and then the classic editor anyway. Let them know that, like don't do that secretly and be like, look, this isn't going to affect anything I'm doing now, but at least we'll kind of have the scaffolding ready for January where maybe we can circle back and get your website up to date as soon as possible. Again, encourage them to update as soon as possible. So how do we do that? Well, there are some options for your clients. I just kind of talked to them. Well, the first one, this is, don't do that one. Continue on 4.x and don't upgrade to 5.0. There's a million reasons why you should not do that, okay? First, again, is security and maintenance. You don't want to give your clients a website that is susceptible to security flaws. So it's important to keep the website updated, especially if it's an active development, right? If it's an active development and then you update with like a deeply outdated website, it's like you're selling them a Chevy Cavalier when you wanted to give them a Chevy Cobalt. I only use Chevy because I know the Cavalier is not made anymore and I don't know anything about cars besides that. I bought my Ford Fusion because it had Bluetooth in 2011. I'm like, oh, what is, this is the safe, I don't care. What can talk to my phone without like a thing? So, I don't recommend that one. You can start the upgrade to 5.0. This is what I will recommend every time. Get your clients on the new editor as soon as possible, but that's not always feasible. And so the middle ground here is upgrade to 5.0 and install the classic editor plugin, which will disable Gutenberg for the time being, okay? There's also a super secret fourth option that's not on this slide. A plugin that was released by WordPress VIP for their clients. It's called Gutenberg Ramp and it's awesome. Their demo video is, I must say, very, very good. And the guy who made it is very good at what he does, in my opinion. Gutenberg Ramp is an awesome plugin though. It allows you to disable the Gutenberg editor based on post or post type. So if you're like, blogs are just like paragraphs with some images, Gutenberg is fine for this. You can turn it on for post. And if you're like, every page is built with a page builder or has like a bunch of custom fields, I don't know. I need to test this. You can just turn it off for pages. And so that's a nice like meet me in the middle kind of way, right? Yes. What do you need? Gutenberg Ramp. Ramp is in ramp. Ramp, R-A-M-P. Yes, like you're ramping up to Gutenberg. I hope nobody got a picture of that, that looked really awkward. I just felt that it looked awkward. So that's a fantastic plugin. And that'll let you completely enable Gutenberg to start. And then you can kind of turn it on for different parts of the site. Yes. Will they be able to go back and forth if they make the jump? I don't think they can go back. That's a great question. I'm going to address that later. So actually, I'm probably going to address a lot of questions so if we could save them until the end, I think that, no, no, no, no problem. That's, I'm calling on people. So pros of upgrading. First of all, it'll continue to be supported, right? If you upgrade to the latest version, the latest version will continue to be supported. At some point, 4.9 is not going to be supported anymore. Actually, at some point, the whole classic editor situation will not be supported anymore, right? So if you upgrade now, it'll be less pain later. You won't have to start from scratch or start from very close to scratch. Security and maintenance updates, that's the thing I keep saying, right? It's a more powerful editor. This is something that I think a lot of people gloss over because maybe they used the first version and it was garbage, or maybe they used the columns block, which still needs a little bit of work, but the team is, if you look at the update log for the plugin, it's like a mile long every time. I do a show with Zach Gordon where we go over the updates and I'm like, I don't have time to read this. It's like more in peace. So, but what a lot of people miss is that you're getting a more powerful editor. You don't have to explain about short codes. Short codes are still supported, but with blocks, you get a much better experience. For example, ninja forms and gravity forms, both support Gutenberg right now. So instead of saying, hey, you wanna add a form to your site, copy this thing that looks like code, even though it's not code, and then when you hit publish, then the form will appear. No, you could just drop in the form block and the form will appear on the page, okay? So there's that. You're using the system that will be adopted by other areas of WordPress in the coming years. It's not gonna be like, oh, well, the new editor has changed. See you guys later. We're good for like 15 years now. Gutenberg, I fully suspect, will be used to modify the widget areas and it'll make its way into the customizer. And at some point, most of WordPress will be Gutenberg powered, right? And then there's the ability potentially, I don't wanna promise this, but you could potentially drop premium plugins all together thanks to 5.0, right? If you paid for like the best table plugin that does fancy things for the editor, you don't need to pay for that anymore, right? Or if you were using a page builder just to like make the blog posts a little bit fancier, you don't need that anymore. I don't know how many people use the page builder for like every blog post, but if you are doing it that way, you don't need to pay for that anymore. And this is a native solution, right? You're no longer depending on an outside thing to do what I believe should be core functionality. So those are the pros of upgrading. But I am not a talking head on your least favorite news network, so I'm not gonna show you just the stuff I support or the good stuff. There are cons to upgrading, right? There's cost involved, time and money, okay? So again, you need to have that conversation with your clients. This is happening, it's gonna cost some money, it'll be better in the long run. Your site could break, your content could break, your theme could break, your plugins can break. Well, there's a whole part of this talk about that. Many plugins won't be compatible with 5.0 or the new editor on the day it comes out. And maybe that doesn't matter, like maybe there's just an area that doesn't have anything to do with the editor, that's fine, right? Or a plugin that adds a custom post type, but you don't need the Gutenberg editor for it. That's fine, okay? But just be mindful of that, that when you upgrade to 5.0, you'll still need to do a little bit of testing. And many plugins will likely, I shouldn't say will anymore, but could potentially turn off Gutenberg for a short period while they get everything up to date, right? Cause there are people who are waiting for the final or close to final release to update. So those are some of the cons of upgrading. What should you do? Well, it should be on a case by case basis. For smaller sites that are blogs or informational sites, I think you could just go to Gutenberg today, probably. My website is like 14 or 15 years old at this point. I've got over a decade of content on it. But it's pretty much just a blog. So I upgraded to Gutenberg on Casablanca.org on a staging site, I haven't moved into production yet, but it was a pretty easy move. And I'm using Beaver Builder as a page builder too, but none of my content broke. Everything worked fine. I was very happy with the results. If you have, but if you do have a page builder that powers a lot of the site, or if everything is like ACF driven, maybe you should wait or have that conversation again. Let your clients take it for a spin. I'll get to the questions at the end. Let your clients take it for a spin, set up a staging site for them and let them try it out. Or there's a website called Frontenberg where they can just try it out there and say like, hey, this could be you in just a few short weeks. So I think that's probably a good plan. Now, I've got about 10 minutes left and a bunch of content, so I want to adjust these. These are the most important things. These slides and more resources are available. There'll be a URL on the last slide so you can go download the slides and PDFs and stuff. The most common questions I get are, what happens to my current content? Will plugin I love work? Do I have to upgrade? What happens to my theme? Can't I just use the classic editor plugin forever? For questions three and five, yes and no. Yes, you have to upgrade for the reasons we talked about. No, you can't just use the classic editor plugin forever because at some point it won't be supported anymore and the site will break. For the other three questions, what happens to my current content? In order for your content to change at all with Gutenberg, three things have to happen. You have to enable the plugin. Nothing happens to your content at that point. So if you never touch your content again, if you have a blog post that just kills it in SEO and you're like, why break a good thing, that'll stay the same forever. If you see a post with a typo and you're like, ah, I just upgraded to Gutenberg, will this break my site? Open up the post and there's a classic editor block that your content is in. Fix the typo, save it, fine. Everything is still fine. The highest potential for breakage is when you click the more options to the right of the block and say convert to blocks. But Gutenberg is pretty smart at this point. It's very good at converting HTML to blocks. So three things, three very deliberate things need to happen for your content to break. World Plugin, I love work. I don't know, you should ask the developer, but the most common ones I hear, ACF, Beaver Builder Elementor or Divi and the Forms plugins. Most Forms plugins are great. They're supporting Gutenberg right now. I only use Beaver Builder and that completely supports Gutenberg. Like it ignores it. Divi does the same thing. Great, I didn't know about Divi. So Divi does the same thing. I'm sure Elementor does the same thing. Don't take my word for that, because I have no idea. ACF, ACF just released a fantastic thing where not only will they support Gutenberg, but they'll also make it easy for you to spin up your own custom blocks. So ACF, fantastic. And then what happens to my theme? Well, let's get to that. Testing Gutenberg, review of things that can break from least to most likely. Your content, content generated from plugins, customized editors or page builders, your theme. Your theme is the most likely thing that will break because Gutenberg is adding new elements that your theme doesn't support yet because there was no reason to support them. This is a test plan. It's very hard to read, but there's a PDF on the resources site. This is your test plan very quickly. I know I'm throwing a lot of information at you. Create a stage of site with your host. That's the first thing. Don't do this live, okay? Don't be like Bill O'Reilly. That's like a 30 year old reference at this point. You can't explain that, right? The bread goes in, toast comes out. You can't explain that. Install the Gutenberg plugin. That's a reference only me and my brother get. Install any betas of important plugins. That's an important thing too. The plugin that you have now might not support Gutenberg, but the beta does. So check your developer sites for that. Inventory all of your content, page templates, posts, custom post types, and test all of those things. Create a kitchen sink plugin with all the blocks to see what they look like in your theme. Conduct tests, document everything. Offer feedback to both the Gutenberg team and the plugin developers and fix what you can. So what can you fix? You can fix things in your theme or a plugin that you've created. New types of content with minimal styles that affect the front end. That's what Gutenberg's all about. The columns block adds literally the least amount of CSS it has to to make columns work full width. Okay, so they don't even work on small screens. The cover image, you need to add some support for that. If you have any custom editor styles, if you've changed the font to make it match the front end a little bit better, you'll have to fix those probably. And if a page template's not full width, if it uses sidebars, it's not going to take advantage of everything that Gutenberg has to offer. So you might have to fix some of the page templates too. And then for your plugin, if you're doing things that affect the front end, you'll have the same issues that you see in themes. If you're adding CSS to certain things, you might have to fix that. If you add meta boxes or short codes, those will still work, but you might want to convert your short code to a block to make it easier to use for your users. And if you have a custom post type, make sure this line is enabled. It has to have rest support because Gutenberg is fully JavaScript powered and this turns the Gutenberg editor on for your custom post type. Again, this is all in the resources if you need it for reference later. So some of the things that you can do for each add CSS for new blocks, create some generic classes because you can add CSS classes to every block. So Gutenberg makes it very easier to do, very easier, very easy to do that. You can add theme support for wide and full width images for custom color palettes and things like that. That's a whole other talk. And then you can test every template. And for themes, test it as much as possible and take stock of all your functionality. You'll have to probably run your plugins through a full test now just to make sure that nothing breaks. All right, well, so that's everything I got. I'm sure you guys have a lot of questions. If you want the slides and other resources, you can go to casabona.org slash WCLV18. I didn't include the PA. So that's WordCamp, Las Vegas, 18. Again, that's casabona.org slash WCLV18. And there'll be links and the slides and lots of other resources, a full like upgrade checklist. You can download a PDF of a checklist I came up with with a test plan and all that. So I think we have some time for questions. Yes. So when you said people build their ignored Gutenberg, is that a good thing? Yes. Yeah, so. For functionality, but things going forward. Ah. Because they might be doing a thing. Oh no, no, that's a really good, that's a very good clarification, right? What happens in the current iteration of Beaver Builder, right, is you have two tabs on the editor screen, like classic editor or original editor, whatever it says, and page builder. The same thing is going to happen moving forward with Gutenberg and the plugin already supports that. So you'll see like Gutenberg editor and page builder. If you choose page builder, Beaver Builder stores its stuff a certain way anyway. And then if you convert back to Gutenberg, the same thing happens if you disable Beaver Builder where the content will just fall into the editor without any of Beaver Builder styles. Yeah. Did you have a question? Yeah. That's a really good question. So the question was for a multi-site, can you enable Gutenberg on a site by site basis? And I believe the answer while it's still a plugin is yes, right? Because you can enable and disable any plugin on a site by site basis. When 5.0 comes out, I don't know if that will be the case. So what I would recommend doing is upgrade to 5.0 and install the classic editor plugin for every site, right, like site-wide. And then you can go and test each site, disable it as you need to. Any other questions? Yeah. Yeah, that's a really good question too. So I mean if you have, I think that you should have a full-width template. So even if the default template has the sidebar, because that's like where some other important content is, if you just add a template for full-width, I think that'll be good. And then that won't have any sidebars. But what you're doing is giving your clients for yourself the flexibility to take advantage of the entire page and maybe add their own column. A caveat with that and a bug, well not a bug, but something I hope they add is that the columns blocks only distribute evenly. So you can't say I want the left column to be 70% and the right column to be 30%. I hope they change that, but at this point, that's not the case. Yeah, oh yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah, so can you jump back and forth between the Gutenberg editor and the classic editor? Theoretically, yes. As of 3.5, I don't know if they fixed this in 3.6. There was a bug where you, if you went to the Gutenberg editor, it was fine. And if you went back to the classic editor, it was fine. But then if you went back to the Gutenberg editor, it broke the blocks. I don't know if they fixed this, so I would maybe test that or proceed with caution if you're going to just switch back and forth a bunch. In the current plugin, the Gutenberg plugin, you can still use the classic editor. So if you click add new or edit, it'll automatically open in the Gutenberg editor. But if you hover over a page or post, you'll see a link for the classic editor and you just click and edit from there if you're concerned about kind of running both at the same time. Yes, there is. There's a cog in the top right corner. And if you click on that, it'll say visual or code and code is the text editor. So, and that's the view that I showed early on. That's what you'll see there. There's also an HTML block. So like if you're using custom HTML, you just drop the HTML block in and it'll like color code it and stuff like that, like syntax highlighting, it's very nice. I think that's the case, right? I didn't just lie to everybody there. I'm pretty sure it's the same. So, yes. I hope the answer is probably depends, but I'm gonna ask it anyway. For testing purposes, what's a good time period to kind of lock out and let your clients know here's approximately, so anywhere from a nice easy site that's just generic to when it gets more complicated? Yeah, that's a really great question. So the question is how long for testing? Maybe best case scenario, everything works and worst case scenario where it's a dumpster fire. That's my wording, no. So, my friend Brian Richards from WP Session says that you should never a lot less than three hours for any task because of the cognitive load that it takes to switch and then switch back. So, I'm gonna say at minimum, everything works perfectly. It's a brand new blog and you only have blog posts, three hours, absolute minimum. Even if you just turn Gutenberg on and everything works. I generally a lot like a couple of hours for what I'll call discovery, I'll audit the site and I'll say this plugin is in use, WooCommerce is being used, like my creator courses website, I'm kind of like dreading that upgrade because I've got WooCommerce, I've got Learn Dash, I've got BB Press, I've got affiliate WP, I've got just like, it's too many plugins. And then I'm using a studio press theme. So, I'm dreading that because that's probably going to take like 30 to 40 hours to test because I'm gonna need to test products and variations on products and then my lessons and do the forums work and stuff like that. So, yeah, it does depend but I think best case, you're looking at three hours minimum. Average, I'm gonna say like 15 to 20 hours because you're gonna wanna create that staging site, you're gonna wanna enable it, you're gonna wanna test, you're probably going to find some bugs, like everything's not gonna be super easy. Some of those bugs might just be updating the theme or the plugin. Or it could be just like writing a helper CSS file to style some of the new blocks, right? So like the columns block, maybe you're gonna wanna write some CSS to make sure it's responsive or you're gonna wanna add a theme support to support wide and full with images, stuff like that. Any other questions, comments, concerns about this? Life, yes. Yeah. So the themes don't but Gutenberg, the editor is taking the same route that the classic editor takes where it's not adding any styles, right? If you do something in the editor, it doesn't apply CSS to make it look like what you see in the editor and the same thing kind of goes for Gutenberg, right? So for columns or new elements that aren't just straight HTML, like paragraphs or headings, you're going to need to add some CSS to make those work properly within your theme. But themes are not like disabling Gutenberg by default. So, right, you'll need to add styles for the columns block. You can still use the theme, it's just not gonna look. So, so. Well, what I'm getting at is at some point there's gotta be some kind of compatibility between the themes and the. And that's completely up to the theme developer. Right. Right. There is discussion within the Gutenberg team about should we add some minimum response of CSS for columns. I'm of the opinion as a theme developer, as like a front-end developer myself, I don't like when things make those decisions for me but I think that it should be there and easily overwriteable and here's why. Cause people are gonna find a theme, the columns are gonna be there and then the columns aren't gonna work out of the box. And I think that if Gutenberg's adding functionality, I'm like pontificating here. If Gutenberg's gonna add functionality, it should work out of the box no matter what the theme is. But it'll probably still look pretty bad. It'll just not look completely broken. So, does that answer your question? Yes or no? I think, so I mean, it does depend on the theme, but I. Right. Yeah, the theme is absolutely, like the theme is absolutely gonna break. But the nice thing is that like the Gutenberg blocks are pretty easy to style. In my course, I actually show the students like in the new video. If you've already taken my course, a new version's coming out. And in the new version for columns, I actually show you how to add a little bit of CSS to make things look nice. And they'll be like a helper file. But that's really gonna depend on your theme anyway. So, yeah, that's where the most headache's gonna come in. If you're using a third-party theme, hopefully they'll add support beforehand. Here and then here, yeah. Okay, well, who related to that? I was only in that case, there's a lot of columns and a lot of columns. Yeah. So, then you can follow the Gutenberg and you can create a full-width template. So, then you can be able to do a full-width template. So, then you can create a full-width template. Totally, yeah, so if you're, let's say you're using a full-width template, you want the columns to be controlled by Gutenberg. You can add a CSS class to the columns block. And then you could basically say the first child of the column should be 70% and the last child or the second column should be 30%. Unless it changed in the last update, I couldn't find a way to target the individual columns because it's only in the same element. Yeah, so, oh, that's really interesting. It's using Flexbox now, though. It's switched from grid to Flexbox. No, yes, even with Flexbox, it's just... Interesting. I couldn't see a way to add a class for an individual column. No, no, so I don't think you can, but you can add a class to the entire columns block and then target the children because there still needs to be a container for each column. Yeah, yeah, but you can't just say like wide column and narrow column. Does that make sense? Yeah, that makes sense. Talking code is very hard. Is there another question here? Yeah, so for... No, Gutenberg, well, that's a good question. If you open it in the Gutenberg editor and then convert it to blocks, it will not be converted to an HTML block. So the question is, if you have a page that's driven totally by code, if you, like, so you have HTML in the editor that's styling everything, right? PHP. Oh, PHP, so PHP within WordPress? Okay. So my recommendation for that... It's not gonna do anything. Right. If you're drawing the PHP page, it's not gonna be opened in the editor and so therefore Gutenberg is not a problem. Right, so are you managing content in the editor? Or you just have a, oh, yeah, no, anything that's not opened in the editor at all won't be affected by Gutenberg. Yeah, okay. I thought you were saying, I thought you were saying that you had PHP in the editor and I'm like, you really shouldn't do that. But no, if you, yeah, if you're not, Gutenberg at this point only affects the editor. So, like, if you have widget areas, they're fine. If you have, like, hard-coded headers and footers, they're fine. It's only gonna be basically what's replaced by the template tag of the content. Yeah, cool. Thank you for that clarification. Anything else? Yes. What are your thoughts on the future of all these traditional page readers? No, I don't think so. I think the long view is web development is fundamentally changing. Things like Squarespace. I'm gonna be, it's a hot mic, right? I've recommended Squarespace to a lot of people who wanna do it themselves because it's easier to edit everything. People who are in the, I shouldn't, I don't wanna play explain, but I've heard WordPress is very easy. WordPress isn't that easy. I think Gutenberg is gonna make it easier. So WordPress is playing a little bit of catch-up, I think. And there's a lot of friction for that catch-up because we've got a 15-year-old ecosystem that we need to take account for. But in the long run, this will be better. And I think that, yes, we're going to see a lot more tools like Squarespace, Wix, like Gutenberg and other areas. And so people who just want a simple informational site may not need to hire a web designer, right? A lot more people, I believe, and I'm building my business on this, that's how much I believe it, are moving towards just kind of being site builders and using WordPress and plugins to put together a site. Creator courses, my online course site, I was able to make a full LMS e-commerce solution with this much code. Just because the template didn't do exactly what I wanted, I'm like, I can do this. But I didn't need to, it's just what I wanted to do. So I think we're going to start to see more website builders thanks to these more advanced tools and then more heavy development, like heavier and JavaScript and PHP, to do some of that custom stuff that you can't just kind of build right out of the box. So I don't think I reiterated the question, but it was, what do I think about these more visual editors and page builders? Are they going to continue to persist or die out in a year? And I think they'll be around for the long run. Yeah, cool. Well, if anybody has any other questions, I'll be around for a little bit. I'm here, I'm Jay Casabona on most social networks, most notably Twitter. And so come say hello or tweet me or whatever, I'm happy to answer any questions that you have. Thanks everybody.