 Okay, I welcome to the advocacy and outreach special interest group meeting to these December 19th, so we are still in the Christmas mode. We have four people on the call. So Markway, Tracy, Jacqueline from continuous delivery of the issue. And me. So, our today agenda is actually quite short. So we have one item proposed is about the Jenkins elections retrospective. So if you were not following the Jenkins project, we had elections which just finished. If you go to Jenkins website, there is a blog post these results. And one main thing about these elections, these elections actually first ever elections in the Jenkins project. So since it started in 2011, as Jenkins after the renaming, we had a board consisting of three members, we want to do elections but they have never happened. So finally, we have new board. So now the board is expanded to five people. So we have only half Alex and me joining the Jenkins board. We also have key key and color for a long time my Jenkins contributors and who will write us through all the board management processes and governance processes. And we also have a renewed list of officers. So we have five officers, Daniel Beck, Alisa, the status security and the men's officer, Olivier Verneen became an infrastructure officer. So before that, the position was empty. Tyler Croy was handling that but now Olivier becomes an officer. So we have more than one. Oliver Glonzer is a release officer working on Jenkins LCS releases, release candidate testing and basically release management. And Mark White, who is also on the call, he becomes a documentation officer. This is a new position which was just introduced this year. So to emphasize the importance of the documentation in the project, we introduced a new role which is aligned with the documentation specialist group. So that's the election results. And yeah, you can see some statistics there about number of officer elections. But what we basically got here, that we had around 97 eligible accounts and after all we got more than 300 votes. So you may see that it's less than one percent, it's small, but actually if you take a look at statistics from other elections like Apache Foundation or whatever, you can see that the numbers are approximately the same. So still 300 votes is a big number and thanks to everybody who voted, thanks to everybody who helped that happen, special thanks to Olivier and Tracy who have driven the election process to the end. So yeah, now we have everything running and there is a lot of things for the board to happen in the future like restoring governance boards, it's like meetings, whatever. So the things we really need for the project and to enable that the governance board will be able to help with it and obviously a lot of improvements, etc. Also depend on the board and the Jenkins community health. So I believe there will be a lot of communication between Jenkins board and advocacy and outreach seat so that we can go forward and respond to the community. Okay, so the agenda was Jenkins. Can you hear me? No, I was just going to say, yeah, congratulations to yourself, Mark, Alyssa and everyone who's involved and I think pretty momentous milestone for the community. So Oleg, you mentioned that the participation rate was not too far out of range so other boards and other communities see similarly, surprisingly to me anyway low percentages of people who have been somehow in contact with us but didn't bother to vote. So that's a relief, that's good. Yeah, so it was just one of the comments and perspectives and I addressed that we went through. So yeah, it's a pretty good number of vote and this basically it's not 10 people, it's not just candidates who voted. Yeah, there is a lot of active contributors who joined the elections or voted. So I believe that we can say that these elections are done. If we can get to three southern contributors in the next elections, just in one year, and it's great, but it's already good start. We've established a pattern, right, and the rules say that we will vote again in a year and do it again in another year, right, so we're going to get better at this. Thanks. Yeah, exactly. And in order to make it better, we actually need feedback from all the participants. So from our watches to this call, we need your feedback. There is a retrospective document which was created in order to gather some comments and this document is still open. I think it's just another way to discuss the feedback, maybe to define some action items and follow-ups, but if you want to add more comments to the agenda, please do so. Because yeah, this list basically it will continue growing. So any idea, any proposal or any concern you have, just please put it there so we can press it. If you want to communicate something in private, so for example, you didn't like something, but you want to communicate it to the board, and there is also a way to try to raise the things. So basically, there are two ways. One is to send a message to the jinkies board, there is a mailing list which is connected, or you can just contact Tracia. So Tracia was leading the process. So if you have some feedback, just use one of these channels for private feedback, if you need anything for whatever, please let us know. We could also organize that. Okay, so we have a lot of time today. We could spend some time to just go through this retrospective list and maybe to put some comments and feedback, or we could add other topics to the agenda. So what would be your preference? So for me at least I was hoping that we would go through the retrospective document, at least in a conversational mode and be sure that if there were things that were really hot, or anxiety generating in that document, we could discuss them. I didn't see anything that caused me great anxiety, but I thought it would be useful here in this session. Tracy, did we lose Tracy? Yeah, Tracy is like at another meeting. Okay. Yeah, let's do it on our owner and yeah, the meeting is recorded so that Tracy can follow up later, and we can ensure that we have meeting calls. There are major follow-ups. Okay, so if anybody has any feedback, just put it here. Okay, so what went well? So first of all, the elections, elections not only for the board, but also officers, a lot of discussions, and actually we had adjustments in the process this year. For example, one of the major adjustments that we went to three board member votes instead of two, just to have five members so that there is no voting for the local whatever. So these changes we discussed in the community, we had governance meeting in September to vote with them. There was something like six amendments table in order to change the process, all the amendments were accepted. And before that, we discussed them in the mailing list, we discussed them at the advocacy and outreach meetings. So the process evolved and it keeps evolving. Moreover, we get updates, good updates and documentation. So as a part of our, let's say it's almost a crusade moving out of Jenkins Wiki to Jenkins IO. So we got all governance, the documents, et cetera, moved in parallel with voting so you can find the recent versions and update the version of all documents right on the side. You can find them easily without googling because before that, it was just in Wiki and from anywhere. And here, for example, we have election process which is documented is all the amendments we had. And we will follow this process next year, or unless we apply more amendments after the retrospective. So these are the documents like the government and documental services of governance board, which was all of the also dated. We are still waiting for buyers and avatars from some people, but yeah, this page also evolves. Okay, so it's great. We definitely got a lot of feedback from the developer, my name is when we started that. We got the account feedback in 2019 because we had iterations and attempts to make votes before, for example, in 2015 and 2016. So we feel that it was a huge number of discussions. Yeah, another, I'm not sure who did that, but basically, almost everybody was eligible to vote. If you had an account feed before September 2019. So basically, even you. That eligibility thing was for me at least was huge. If I'd submitted a bug, right, if I'd done anything that caused me to get an account on Jenkins.io, I became eligible to vote. Exactly. So, yeah, what else we have here. The elections are done. Actually, we had a lot of great candidates. I would say that everybody who was on the ballot was everybody well deserves to be on the Jenkins board. In the future, we could probably rotate as a part of elections or probably we could introduce additional roles, for example, shadow officers or whatever to have more people onboarded to the governance, for example, like Kubernetes community does. There are things like that in the feedback, so we couldn't facilitate that. Yeah, there is a lot of voters, there is a lot of candidates and there is a new voter registration application. So, yeah, one of the things we discover, which is aligned with this topic that there was no solution ready to handle this number of voters. The mode we selected because the Jenkins project they needed to have a voting system and obviously this number is beyond the number of active contributors numbers and I guess any community in the world. But since we were inclusive, we needed to make it possible. That's why we did a two-stage voting system with additional voter registration application which allowed us to collect contracts of people who applied for voting. And it also allowed us to work around issues, for example, is submitting data like emails to another voting system because it was not 100% if we believe whether we were able to do that. So this system actually allowed us to solve these concerns. And, yeah, last comment is that everything is actually vote variable. So we didn't really have any kind of problems during these elections, everything was handled well, everybody was positive. So, yeah, even if there were some delays in the process because of today, we got it done. Okay, and regarding negative part, yeah, there is a lot of, well, it's not negative part, it's something we could improve. So let's go through that. Yeah, a huge number of accounts, I believe we discussed that. I'm clear why we went to use Jenkins LAP accounts instead of GitHub. That one for me is not at all unclear. I'm a little surprised someone else did found it unclear. I don't know a way to take GitHub accounts and turn them into an email address. Do we have facilities to do that? Well, theoretically, yes. Practically, it's rather a problem of contributed definition. Because, yeah, we can say that everybody has a GitHub account in 2017, but it's not correct. And also, our definition of contributor is not committer. Right. If you write a blog post, your contributor, if you just provide a good issue, good feedback, you also contribute to the project. And that's why we decided to go with Jenkins LAP account, because historically it collects all contributors we have in the project. So if you edit content, for example, on Jenkins Wiki, if you create issues, if you do contributions, if you maintain plugins, then you have a Jenkins LAP account. So I believe that LAP was much more representative than GitHub, but obviously it posed particular issues. So certainly, I assume that the set is larger in LAP accounts than in GitHub, because submitting a bug doesn't require that I get a GitHub account, right? I just don't have to have it. Yeah. And also, it's a problem of basically who you would take from GitHub, because yeah, you can go to Jenkins CI, you can see that there are 2,000 people here. But again, it doesn't map to everything because we have a lot of contributors who don't really remember of Jenkins CI GitHub organization, because they don't need that. To submit a pull request, you don't have to be a member. You would need to be a member if you were maintaining something. But that's it. I think we have other organizations like Jenkins, Infra, Jenkins CI, ZH for Chinese localization community. So yeah, we could have mentioned that, but again, it doesn't represent the community in the current state. Good. Okay. Thanks. Yeah, so how we do it in the next year, it's an open question, but yeah, all as long as all the LAP accounts approach course, I think it's fine. But if you want to participate in the next elections and if you don't have a Jenkins sold up account, probably you want to create one. And even if it wasn't inclusive enough, actually in our regional announcements by Tracy, there was explicit comment that if somebody wanted to participate in elections but didn't have a GitHub account, there was a way to raise it. So even so not having Jenkins sold up account was a blocker. They will use to solve it. As far as I know, nobody used this way, but it was documented. Okay, so registered accounts, we want to feel that for both accounts and some cases. Not only both accounts, but also team accounts, because in some cases we have teams registered as accounts. One of the cases which cause some internal discussions is Jenkins security team, because it's registered as a GitHub account for process reasons. And somebody applied subscribed for voting on behalf of this account, because we were sending hyperlinked streamings. Well, this account didn't fold, but yeah, this is a point. Unfortunately, right now our account doesn't allow filtering that there is no food for that. So, in the future, we need to do something about that. But yeah, right now, I guess it's just one of the filtering of voters because what we could do, we could apply manual filtering after this stage piece that just vote registration, because it's if it's about 400 it's perfectly possible to do it one of the, let's say one hour of these two sport check accounts and ensure that everybody is G to contribute to another group. So something we could do next time. Yeah, they're they're predictable patterns in in the naming of some things at least team or yeah. Okay. Yeah, I know that if I being the CD automation project is a manual, not everybody will enjoy that, but it's easy to create any kind of information for that. And cheaper, right, ultimately, it's spending an hour is not that much. Exactly. So what was deleted was no communication about the delay until after the official vote opening date. It's a valid comment. So it's something to take an account in our process and hopefully they will be no delays next time. This time it was quite unexpected. And there was some comments above, for example, significant see a Jenkins error failures, which actually be a limited bandwagon of the Jinx infrastructure team, which was instrumental for conducting this vote. And the elections are important, but all Jinx contribution has been enabled to deliver their changes. It's more important. So that's why there is some unfronted delays, as well as tooling and all these things which were not really fun. Okay. So, just let's do better next time, because yeah, this is a perfectly valid comment. It's not really acceptable. If you want, we want to think about elections. Let's try to improve. Yeah. In general, a lot of transparency around the implementation. No issues to watch. So, so, yeah, I, I, I wrestled with that one. I think it's valid. I think it's also valid. I'm not terribly concerned about it personally, because I think that there were there it's a natural outcome that we will be more transparent. Because we track things we do to this. This was a learning phase, we had to do things rapidly, and, and the, the speed at which they had to be done meant that we didn't use our typical created epic and track it with, with our usual project techniques. Yeah. But yeah, we definitely should do that. So, we had communications with, we had communications and advocacy and outreach channels, we had communications and the developer one increase. So it's not that it was computer or those other, but obviously communication. Well, and, and for me it was implementation was the concern here. And we had talked in depth about how should we do this, how should we approach it, but then the implementation progress there were times it just had to make quick progress. Exactly. So, okay. So the next point is about affiliation. So just to clarify it, basically, Mark is probably the main victim of that. So we have some rules which basically prevent any company of her from having more than 50% of seats. So, like, yeah. And what it means that even so after elections, if something doesn't go right, if, for example, there are two persons or three persons away, like from the same company or not eligible. Again, it was a case because this election results both me and Mark with formally elected to the boat. But due to this 50% cost we were not able to be on the boat because he also works for CalVis. So we, well, basically the process department here. That's why we need the complex election system like see so whatever so that we don't need to run the votes of such things happening. We don't want to have second rounds or whatever. And so, and one of the problems we had that we didn't really document the company affiliation on our statements. So if you go to the blog, if you go to the selection results, so here, I'm not sure how, yeah, and this nice ones here and are you looking for the personal statements. You're certainly correct. There wasn't, there wasn't a general purpose format for personal statements right it was, it was free form and therefore many did not disclose. Oh, I worked for this company or that company. Yeah, exactly. So if you go to our personal statements. So, I would rather say that nobody or most nobody specified the company affiliation. Right. At least I admit I didn't. And I did not. And I don't don't know that Alex did his either so yeah it's. It's something we could improve, because he definitely impacted the election results. Right, should do that. Okay, then candidates, you're not asked whether they willing to participate before announcing they can see. So yeah, this is a valid concern and actually. What happened. There were limitations submitted by contributors and some people nominated people. Well, that's what's the purpose. But I think that before announcing the candidates, there was no communication of these potential candidates and we ended up bringing some situations. We basically had people who didn't want to be elected to particular roles, but who were announced in the developer many pieces and it was a lot of confusion. So it's totally valid comment it's just not acceptable next time, and we need to take it into account. Right and the question that's asked there. I don't know what the what the question the answer is it's certainly more than four days. I don't know how big it is, but it's a good, good thing we agree. Yes, we, we, we would like to know there was a subtlety there that Tracy for instance chose to step back so that she could run the election process and I'm hoping that the next time. We won't have that heavy a burden on running the election process. So it would have been possible for her to, to, to still be part of it. Well, next year, we could have a thank you both during the elections. So the, oh right, right. Yeah, whoever is not running for the seat. And next year we'll have for people who are not running for the seat is definitely enough people to rev the elections. Great. Okay, let's go next voting emails, your recent to everyone after adding new voters. Yeah, basically just caused a lot of confusion but it wasn't, it didn't cause any issues. Because basically the votes have been already counted so nothing really changed there. Yeah, I don't know what to do with that one because that's, is that, is there a solution for that kind of thing. Yeah, so there is a command, actually a counter up already has a complete working voting feature. So something like two years ago, we implemented voting system. It's not an engine, but it is all the conditions required by the Jenkins project. We didn't use it this time because it wasn't finished and then taking all the infrastructure fires. There was no capacity to finish it. That's why we used to see for the next year, we can use it at six or we can use our counter. So yet to be seen. In this case, maybe we could just do voter registration inside the account up again, it would address this command. I'm sure we still need to send notification sometimes. Right. You can just post in Twitter. So, voting handled by some nominees, which seems to be a conflict of interest from market. Yeah, that's correct. Though, in this case, we basically needed to make the elections happen. Yeah, basically, what it meant that active contributors who wanted to change the things they were driving the elections. They're the same people were interested to be in the Jenkins board to change Jenkins. So that's why we got to this conflict. Yeah, particularly it was resolved by Tracy because Tracy stepped down. So at least there was no conflict on the board elections. Olivia was helping peace infrastructure and he was running for infrastructure officer position. Basically, it was uncontested. So I would, after a marquee stepped down. So I would say that it wasn't critical there as well. So, yeah, the point is valid. In the ideal world, we need different people running elections and participating in them. I'm not sure how it's going to happen for infrastructure officer because whomever is an infrastructure officer. It's a real action. But yeah, let's assume that once the link is done, it doesn't really require a lot of involvement from infrastructure. Who knows. For both, we can definitely prevent it going forward. Right, right. But you're right the info offer officer. Yes. Okay, so we can do something about it. But yeah, I think it's a topic for the next elections. Okay, we elected three instead of two board members and it's unclear how the future elections will look like. So how it looks like according to our government, we elect only one board member next year, unless somebody steps down or whatever. So if you read this, the process which is somewhere in these links, it's pretty straightforward there. Yes, it poses a problem because it's quite unbalanced. One year, one election, another year, three elections. It's still better than having for my board members in the case of deadlock. But you will need to think how we approach maybe somebody steps down by the next year and we do this question automatically. So the desirable mix that this is lobbying for is to to every year. And that's what was described in the government's document at one point but it's counter to the serve for a two year term right that's why it's three three one three one is because of the two year term cadence. Exactly. Okay, so we did that. It was discussed in the developer management was discussed in the governor's meeting. So the change was perfectly legit. Yeah, it would have been great if you didn't have to do so but otherwise we would have had one board member who is not actually active in the project at the moment. So I think we'll just pick your poison situation. Now I have not read the interim. If a board member steps down. There is an interim process described I haven't read it so I'll need to go read it. Is there a short summary that you know of Oleg to. Yeah, so basically it's just one sentence. Okay, it's an appointment. It's just one member to fulfill the remainder of the term subject to this meeting. So basically common community process. I need to fix that in. I'm not sure why, but I still points to the big key. We'll move to the gym. They think that. Yeah, we didn't have it before. So let's figure it out when it happens if it happens. Yeah. Still, at least now we have five people in the board and the old five. So it gives us opportunity and power to make changes in the project, which was then go. Great. That's quite long. But for me, that's that's a governance question. I propose we just skip it for this, this exercise is it is that's more governance than it is election process. Right. So for us, elections, we are way to implement the governance process which we already agreed on. One of the key steps is to actually build the governance model. We already have special interest groups, we already have officers. For example, in my statement, I say that I want to have technical student committee or torque is straight. And to define a road map for the project. But all of that are the next steps. And it's a good time to provide feedback and input. So it's not something which went wrong. It went as it was designed, but now we have resources to change this process and to improve the situation in the community. So something like that. So if you have any feedback about the governance, etc, just drop it to the developer menu please. Currently, even if it's called developer menu please actually it's for developers and for the government's purposes. Yeah, it's documented here. So please don't hesitate to drop your proposals or whatever so that we can discuss them. I have some proposals and drafts. So you won't be the only one proposing changes. And it's open to everyone. So just do that. Currently, there are no way for Jenkins account to be deleted without asking a Jenkins administrator. So seven or three people asking for that. And that's when I don't quite understand. So what I saw the phrase unsubscribed earlier what what is what does that mean it means that they replied to our email and said please unsubscribe me. Yeah, so when you send this and read, basically you can ask to be unsubscribed from your account or whatever. I'm not sure how this magic happens because we upload it to the entire list. So what is our list is when we re-upload the list for example in one year, we can add people who unsubscribed back to the list. But yeah, this is something for infrastructure team to figure out. There's no real way of collecting the number 700 came from somewhere it came from Sendgrid. And that means there's a list of those 700 email addresses, but the next time we generate, unless we take specific steps those 700 requests unsubscribed will be ignored and we'll send to them again. Yeah, that's my understanding. But again, it's an infrastructure matter. Yeah, this, you can take it and count it in the next elections. And yeah, regarding the first part, there is no way for James upon to be without Jane Austin, Jake, this admin. Yeah, it's a feature request or whatever. So we could do it in our counter. So it's a matter of what exactly delete to be means because you can just delete the account but keep whatever ghost instance in Jira in a week. Yeah, that's the problem because you cannot just delete account you have to retain the data or somebody may want to the data to be deleted and then it goes to completely different space. Right, right. It's, this is, this is the same class of problem that even the Linux vendors have, when I delete the account I created, I have an option to delete all my data and that may harvest my entire disk drive and wipe me out completely and yeah that's that's a whole problem. I don't think we want to solve. We may have eventually return to this topic. So someone may demand it right it may they may say legally you must but for now it's not a problem for us to solve. Yeah, right. Wow. And basically that's all. Thank you all and thanks for going through that. So, we have a bunch of next steps, but one main step is to add your feedback here. Because, for example, I abstained from putting feedback for now because it was directly involved in the process and I want to see feedback from others first. So, if you still want to provide some feedback and it's not in the beast, then you can add it. So, maybe we have some feedback from Lisa or Jackie. No, I don't have any specific feedback. Oh, like I think, I think this is a really good start. I mean, we can only improve from going forward from here but I am really impressed with with the process that was that that took place for this election. Yeah, this is just more education for me than anything else. So, thank you so much for doing this. Thank you. Obviously, you'll have more elections soon. So that was a low discussion about voting for the best changes. Yeah, it's a important topic need to discover and if somebody wants to improve voting system, etc, you have use cases to test on. Hey, yeah, that'd be that would be a fun one. That is a Choose your favorite low or vote the vote your priority order of logos because CIVS very much encourages a prioritization. Sort them by your preference. That's nice. Yeah, we just to explore the limit of candidates. Okay. So yeah. So speaking seriously, yeah, there is a lot of things can be improved and the effect if you have one. Okay, so I guess that's it for elections. I tend to be at it another topic about for them. So, yeah, we discussed it with previous topics. So would you like to spend some time. That sounds good. So I took so specifically for me I took Monday to Wednesday off this week so I don't really have any specific new updates. The only the new update the only new update I have is that the the venue that I was working on. Before I left for for holiday. I, it was a really good prospect, but then I was told that they gave that slot away to somebody else. So it's for contributors I'm afraid. It's for the contributor summit as well as for the two Jenkins trainings the Jenkins pipeline training in the Jenkins X training. So I did so while I was out on holiday I did ask telly to look into our second option and a third possible option. So I need to review what was sent to me. And then I will let you guys know. Okay. Yeah. So keys for the contributor summit and this for trainings as well we can look for alternate venues, because Jenkins and Jenkins X training so he basically Jenkins meetups. So we can find a sponsor for them. Simple contributor summit, but the definitely all of that can happen after Christmas because now it's just that season. Yeah. It might be a bit short notice but I'm confident that we can figure out something. I hope so it's it's it's on a high priority list for me to get this knocked out. Yeah, thank you very much for working on it. Yeah. There is also many list threat about the agenda. So, yeah, basically this threat is about what we actually do. Okay, now we have information about a separate stands. And we are looking for information about who's going to participate. So Olivia has created one document for for them to start on 20. And this is one. And we need to understand who's going to be there and this yourself if you're going to follow them. And is the link to this document in the in the meeting notes. Oh, like, I don't know that I've got it yet. So I need to get myself listed. Oh, it's it's in the it was in a mailing list. Okay. Yeah. Great. Thank you. So, yeah, basically we have stands. We also have CCD room. So I guess only we is going to be busy on Sunday. Yeah, that's just one stand, right? Yeah, it's one stand and the CCD room. But the CCD room is just about Jenkins or Jenkins X. It's for any project. For Jenkins and Jenkins X talks about it all. But yes, then he is on Saturday and Sunday, as it used to be. And, and Olivia has already selected the topics for the for the dev room right the he had 45 or 50 submissions for what would be a much smaller number of slots and so we already has made that choice good. Yeah, I'm not sure whether it's published already. But you have agenda is there. So, the creation and continuous deployment. So I can find the link but it's somewhere on the photo website. There is a list of talks available there. Great. Yeah, I guess it's somewhere here. I'm just going to so big so the application you can do anything. So, yeah, here is a list of talks. But yeah, you can see that there is Jenkins X talk from Carlos, I believe. Yeah, progressive delivery. And then there's talk from Victor falsely about which will go to reference of Jenkins and Jenkins X. I'm not sure there is a top tick tone. And then I guess there was something about Jenkins. Yeah, a small journey to another skill and environment based on Jenkins. So, yeah, that's what we have now. I guess we don't have speed in here in the least. Maybe next year. Yeah, we'll just put it to the link. Yeah, it's ultimately possible that we will have more talks about Jenkins and other things because in previous years, even before the ACD track, we had something quite four to five talks about Jenkins. So, even if you just look like that, so you can see that right now, one, two, three. Yeah, you can see that. Yeah, basically it's just in our room. But yeah, there might be other rooms soon. Because not everybody published the agenda so far. Okay. So what else do we have for course them. All I have for me. Jackie, so I'm going to be reaching out to you. If you can send me the, the vendor for the, for the way you ordered the socks. Oh yeah. Yeah, I can do that. That'd be great. Yeah, and that was what I was going to follow up with was also, I don't know how much swag we should order. The CD innovation sponsor, some for the Jenkins. Okay. While we're there so. Yeah, yeah, you and I we can chat about that. Yeah, let me know. Do you have any events? So the only one that I think we usually do like is the La Croix dinner on Friday evening. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. That's the name of the restaurant. Okay, I'll find it out and put it there. Yeah. So, yeah, on Saturday, they will be Google summer of coat gathering on the evening. So I will be busy on Saturday and probably other contributors because you had a lot of contributors from Europe this year. But yeah, maybe somebody gets together, you can use to this time. I guess that's it for now. Okay, so next meeting. Yeah, next meeting is December 2nd right or January 2nd. Do we feel optimistic enough about having this meeting or do we just console it. I might need it for for them planning. Yeah, I intend to be here for the January 2nd meeting and we'll be running the platform, say meeting that morning. So I think I'm at least hopeful that both those will be useful. I have no idea what's holding the calendar. I'll be working. Okay, so let's see, but yeah, since Mark there, I'll probably join as well. Yeah, let's just give it a general second. Okay. Oh, again, it will be likely Christmas mode. So just few people on the call. Okay. Any other topics to cover. Thanks everybody. Thank you. Bye everybody.