 First question is going to be, Jim, did you pay for all the folio societies yourself? That answer would be no, because my in-laws bought me the first one. And then I had a Visa gift card that helped out as well. Okay, so well, everybody. How dare you come here? We are all drinking, which is why we are super on time and opening and know what we're saying. It's one after. We're good. So we are here to talk about Game of Thrones. I am impressed with myself that I own an addition that Jimmy doesn't. That's true. And yeah, this is a reread for all of us. I thought I was pretty sure it was. Thanks, Alex, for confirming. Yeah, I hadn't thought I hadn't read it before. Well, I just psyched myself out because I know that you also have said that, you know, like you've been catching up on everybody's like, you know, all of the series that everyone else has already read before. And I was like, wait, is this one of those for him? I don't think so, but maybe. I think me and Alex both have similar lineages to coming to Booktube and back to books that we both were a song of ice and fire fans and needed to find something to kind of fill the void. And I think if I'm not mistaken, right, Alex, that's. Please don't ever speak on my behalf again. Yes, that is very apt. After comparison. OK, so, you know, let's start off with a difficult question. What is a song of ice and fire? Well, here's the narrator of the audio book says the narrator of the audio book calls it a song of fire and ice. So whichever. Unacceptable. He was like, was there not a director in the room who could be like, let's do a second take and get the name right this time. Yeah, Roy had like executive privilege, because I guess George was like, yeah, no one else is doing this, but Roy and they're like, Roy's not very good. And he was like, don't care. Yeah. I mean, whether he's good or not is a matter of opinion, but saying the title of the series wrong is not a matter of opinion. It's up for interpretation. OK. Fire, ice, ice, fire. OK, so let's just address this right up in that for Eric. The rumor floating wins a winner releasing in 2023. I would like to point out that in 2019, he said that if it wasn't done by 2020 to lock him in the dungeon until he finishes, and that also didn't happen. So I was going to say maybe maybe we should let him out so he can finish the books. Right. So yeah, I don't think 2023 is even going to happen. And if it does, so let's get this out of the way right away. I don't think wins is even going to get published. And if it does, that series isn't going to be done because you saw the dream of spring. The series isn't going to finish because it needs more than two books. Anyway, let's let's talk about a game of thrones. So I mean, I have kept I kept sort of like semi jokingly saying that I wanted to reread Song of Ice and Fire to sort of get the taste of season eight out of my mouth. And I mean, honestly, rereading Game of Thrones was just just generally a week without specifics, any particular part of it. I felt very much like, oh, yeah, it really was good. Wasn't it? It was actually so good. It's so pretty like as terrible as like the world of Westeros is. Like it's such a comfort read to come back to you. And then like having watched the show, too, because like season one was pretty faithful overall to a game of thrones. It's like I so many of these scenes were like directly adapted down to I think it's already one of the most faithful adaptations of anything. Yeah, for sure. So I mean, it was definitely fun to come back to it. And they're like, oh, I remember that. It was great. Yeah, I think it's very much in a testament to how talented George is. And obviously his history of working in television on the twilight zone and Beauty and the Beast and things like that. Like I think it kind of shines through and maybe he couldn't help but to make it almost TVS, which is probably why it's so easy to follow the dialogue in the books. But the thing that kind of stood out to me like rereading this, obviously, I'm really happy to be back in Westeros. But also on top of that, it feels like I undersold how much stuff happens in book one. Like, obviously, I forgot how much happens in book one. George is so good at getting us to the end of the book while spring his side plots. It's something I think other authors actually struggle with when they write epics, he like, for instance, like Sansa, Sansa's wolf being killed, right? Like that is a very important scene that I I mean, I didn't forget about it. But you kind of forget the weight of it along the way. And then on top of that, like Jamie obviously having his men kill Ned's men and stuff like that. It's just like the way we got to the climax. Yeah, man, there's just so many little side things in this book's tight. It's really tight. You notice the little differences, too, because in my mind, like so many of the scenes from this book specifically are show scenes to me now just because it was more recent and I hadn't read a Game of Thrones so long. So like the scene outside of the brothel when Jamie and all the, you know, Kingsguard or not even Kingsguard, but just the Lannister soldiers come up to kill, you know, Ned's people, Jamie just rides away. Like in the show, they change it to make him more of a dick, basically. And like be directly in the fight. Like so noticing those differences or you run up Sansa and, you know, Lady getting killed, you're like, you don't sound like Sansa and Lady got killed. So yeah, I know you didn't finish your reread. But you don't listen. I know she's alive. Stop it. You don't get the scene in the show that the book shows you where then it's like a couple of days later and she gets up and like routine is like, come on, Lady and Lady's not there. And then you get that like settling in of like, oh, like, she's gone. Like, you don't even get that in the show. And that was a super impactful scene in the book just because you get to as much as I don't like this book, like you get that like, oh, poor kid, like your dog died and it's not fair. Yeah. I mean, that's totally relatable too, right? Like it's a good way to to build a little bit of empathy for Sansa because she can be a little bit grating at times because she just seems like so not there when it comes to these things happening around her. And fairness, she might get that from her father. Just like a different flavor of that because these two cannot read the room. She's totally different way. Yeah. She maybe she's listened to a few too many bards in their songs and very much Sansa is the lens of the typical fantasy reader in the 90s. I would say obviously not now, but, you know, it is interesting knowing that she is kind of the trope of the fantasy, you know, hero. Well, she's the girl version of it and that's the guy version of it. Yes, very much so. And the rules have changed. Can we talk about Ned for a second? We can talk about him for more than a second. You already know that, like, if you've watched season one of the show, which that was eye opening for me because, like, I had forgotten so much of the book that, like, when Ned gets beheaded at the end of the show, I'm like, wait, he's the main character. Like, you kind of get the feeling of that in the book, too. But it's like rereading it every single scene as soon as he like goes to King's Landing, I'm just like, dude, look around. Everyone is telling you, like, we're all terrible. You can't trust anybody. Your honor is not going to get you anywhere but in a grave. And he's just like, he's like, surprise Pikachu face. Like, he doesn't understand. Well, I mean, in particular, I don't get it. Like, what do you this is what has to happen? And they're just like, yeah, we don't play by those rules. He's like, I, I literally don't understand what's happening. I mean, he even has Littlefinger who's being like a pretty good friend to him. Being like, look, my dude, it is not helpful to me to do this thing. So I'm up front with you and tell you, if it's not in my interest to do it, I won't and I'm not even lying to you. I'm literally telling you and Ned's like dinner, I don't do the heroic thing. Like, what are you doing? Stannis, Ned needs to be King and Littlefinger is like, dude. Watch for why? Like, I will literally ruin your life if you do this. He's just like, but it's the right thing to do. And even there is saying, you know, like, I, you know, I want to make sure least amount of people die, you know, I actually do want to protect people. And even then that doesn't get through to Ned. Like, you'd think that argument would work on Ned or he'd be like, oh, actually, you know, the greater good of less carnage might be worth it. Oh, but he doesn't trust Varys because of who he is and what he is. And I think that that also shows that Ned being stuck in his old ways ultimately maybe have costed him his life. I wrote down this scene that I didn't realize happened. And it's an Eddard five, I think. And Peter is talking to him in his room. And he said, do you see the guy on the wall right there? And it just looks like a guard on the wall. He goes, that's Varys's guy. And I we never get confirmation that was Varys's watcher on the wall. Yeah. But man, I went, is that really Varys's guy? Or did Peter just make that up? Because it doesn't matter because, like, if that wasn't his guy, someone else is Varys's guy, like. Oh, for sure. And it is interesting that almost directly after that scene, Allerium and Varys are talking and Arya hears, right? And I'm a dungeon. Yes. And he's talking about how the line and the wolf are at each other's throats and all these things. And it's that very next chapter. And I believe in that conversation, you actually hear Varys say he doesn't want Ned to die. Like he kind of alludes to that. One, we're not ready. And two, it's going to be war. And Allerium is like, well, if it's war, it's war. This is perfect then. But the next scene after that. So you got Peter watcher on the wall. You got Varys talking in the dungeon. And then the next scene is when Varys tells Robert that Danny's pregnant. I think Varys's motivations behind telling Robert that Danny's pregnant. Because why would he do that? That actually goes against what him and Allerium are doing behind the scenes now that we know if you have the full content, right? I think it was specific because he knew Ned would be against it and that it would end up breaking them up. Maybe Ned goes home. Yeah, right? I mean, ultimately, that's what they wanted to break. They just wanted Ned to get out of the way. Like they didn't want him dead, but they were like, look, you're going to mess this up for everybody. Like you're too honorable and nice. And like, we got to play our games here and just get out. Because even Peter wanted the same thing. He was like, yeah, pretty much everywhere. They floated the idea of like maybe even Mormont at the Night's Watch was like, maybe they'll let him take the black and come here. It's like everybody around him is like, just just banish him, get him out of the way. And that's just like, no. I mean, even Robert picking him was like, OK, let's see, like maybe we can work with him. OK, we clearly cannot work with him. So he's nice. Let's just get him out. Yeah, I like Darius and Chetcha said, Nate, Ned was raised to be second. It's a critical lack in the way he thinks. He literally have been trained to follow, not to question, do what's right. That's actually a really good point. I mean, he was second to Brandon. He was second to Robert. And I mean, everyone in this world tells him, like, dude, you had everything there. You could have just taken it and done whatever you wanted with it. And he was just like, yeah, but but he's the air. And it's like, damn it, Ned. Let's get this, please. Well, it is, you know, that's another thing Grim does extraordinarily well in a game of thrones is he puts over these dead people like no other. Like, I know exactly what Brandon was about. I know that he had a love interest and I know that he stabbed Peter. Like he builds out like the legend of these dead people very, very well. And then you kind of at the end of it, you kind of think about. And you're like, was Brandon kind of a dick? Yeah. Well, he might have also met. Ned is like the shining star in a world of sadness. So. Like everyone around. I mean, in fairness, like Ned isn't. I mean, he's also kind of mopey and sad. So like that part, he's got the vibe. He's actually honorable. And you get all those little glimpses of, I mean, stuff that still hasn't yet to pay off in the books, but paid off in one way or another in the show, where who knows if it's actually how, but I also love just how, how often a thorn in the net is perfect armor is like John's existence and how often that nettles and how people are like, suffer that. And for some reason, he made an exception for that. And that over there is like, doesn't fit this thing. Why? But people people almost like don't question it enough, though. I think they're really 99.9. But he just like it presents this like unbreakable, always do the right thing that it's easy to forget. And then you're like, oh, yeah, there's that one over there. But everybody brings up proof that he's not that honorable. Like Cersei brings it up directly when he's like, look, you need to leave. Like, I know all about you and your bastards. And she's just like, oh, OK, what about yours, dude? He's just like, listen, I'm not talking about me right now. We're talking about you. You need to leave. She's like, no, like we're going to play the game and you wouldn't die. He's just like, I don't understand. Like, you need to leave. It's just like, yeah. Well, you know, and I think a lot of people are relieved the fact that Ned has a pastor, because if not, if he truly is dishonorable, which we know he is. Yeah. I mean, he really he really didn't have a chance. He didn't really didn't have a chance. And he's the kind of person that, you know, if he can be corrupted, anybody can be kind of there. Yeah. And it's like what Frey says, you know, he breaks when the Lannisters break when just like I do when I eat too many beans, which was a phenomenal one. I just laughed so hard at that. I just could now picture him blazing his addles. Isn't it interesting that our very first chapter with Bran and Ned, it's all about Ned talking about if you're going to pass the sentence, you must swing the sword. And we believe from chapter one, we think that that's how this world is. And the end of the book, Joffrey passes a sentence and does not swing the sword. Is that is everything because he's a little he's a really sense of Joffrey as the antithesis. Yeah, exactly. Yes. And I think little snot nose kid that came into power and he's just disgusting. And he doesn't even have the nerve to swing the sword. And I think it's also a very telling change of the land because Ned's been up in the north forever, right? Coming back into King's Landing 15 years later after this rebellion and you see that the transfer of power. I mean, it's not the same. It's not the same. I thought it was. Yeah. Society is definitely different. And things are allowed to happen that never before, you know, whenever he realizes how in debt the crown is to the Lannisters. I think that was a while. Yeah. Well, I mean, also what is so I tell what a cool detail. Like it's very specific. It is. It's great, too. Because they go like just deep enough to be like, OK, well, how is the crown three million in debt? He's like, it's actually six million, but who's counting? Right. It doesn't matter. He's just like, I don't believe this would ever be allowed to happen. And he's just, well, that's Robert. You don't really know him anymore. Yeah. Or did you ever know him counting coppers? He hates it. Yeah. And, and, dude, you know, talking about like Robert, like how good, by the way, I'm repping House Baratheon tonight. I got I got the scotch. I got the shirt. We're brown. I got it. I don't have a shirt and the scotch. The Westerosi Cowboys Cowboys. That's the Dothraki Dothraki. Robert and Ned's relationship is literally one of my favorite things in fantasy. I I adore it. Well, I mean, honestly, like when we're talking about, you know, being sad or being a shining star or whatever, but honestly, like Joy dies with Robert because he's actually the one who shows up and is just like, I'm king, we'll live it up. I'm going to do what I want. He's like, no, he's also kind of terrible, right? Like he's not a bad person necessarily, but like his not a good king. I mean, he certainly treats Cersei pretty bad. He does on the wedding night, mentioning Leanne his name. And like, he doesn't rule. And like, that's the whole thing. He's just like immediately tells Ned, like, I know you're going to hate me for this, but he's basically a frat boy who just was handed power. It's a big hammer, dude. Yeah. And so he's like the guy that, like, you know, you liked partying with because he was always like a laugh. And he'd be, you know, he'd be a good buddy, you know, he'd help you out or whatever. But like, don't put him in charge of any. That's why I love the show adaptation. First of all, it's fantastic. But I love just like even including like the breastplate stretcher scene and just like how he's too fat for his armor and just all the little like intricacies between him and Ned and like reminiscing and then constantly talking about Leanna. But then just like Ned really trying to be like, look, I'm not. You're not who I remember. You're kind of a crappy person now. Like what happened? And he's just like, this is what being a king is. He's like, that's why I brought you in. You're going to run the kingdom. He's just like. But like also all those times when it because there's so many chances for Ned to kind of figure it out. So many people honestly try to help him out like every other page. It's like, I mean, I just couldn't get red lights. I guess I just couldn't help but think of this like this quote from Kingdom of Heaven. Who knew that would be so relevant this year. You're bringing back with the Sun Eater Kingdom of Heaven. I remember you told me Sun Eater had a lot of Kingdom of Heaven stuff. Yes, it does. But I couldn't help thinking. I don't know if you've seen it. I mean, Alex has seen it. I don't know if Jimmy's seen it or anyone else has seen it. But there's a. But there's specifically this part where they're trying to convince Bailey and to do this thing. And it's very similar to Ned where they're trying to convince Bailey and to like do something that's like a little shady, but will ultimately like save a bunch of people. And he just refuses to do it because he's like Ned. And Seville is like one day will come when you will wish you had done a little evil to do a greater good. And I was like, yeah, like Ned needs this told to him. They literally like he can't see that tiny sacrifice because even like Peter lays it out. He's like, look, like when your kids to his like unite the realm, like everything will be fine. Just forgive. He's just like, but he killed my men. He's like, look, I'm spelling it out for you. Do this take power and then freaking proper of what's his name? I can't even think names right now. Robert's younger brother. Oh, Renly. Renly is just like offers him the truth right now. He's like, take control, take the throne. We got it. He's just like, but Stannis is the heir. He's just like. And no one even likes Stannis, by the way. I mean, they hate Stannis. I actually love Renly. When we get in the Clash of Kings, I'm going to go on a big Renly rent because I actually love Renly. Apparently you'll have all the Baratheons. I do. I'm a Baratheon loyalist. Listen, I saw me the other day. I think you're confusing the Baratheons with the Farsiers and those are different houses and it's not same. He wants Stannis on the throne. I would take Stannis out of the way. I mean, Stannis over Joffrey. No question, but. I put a shoe on the throne over Joffrey. Who cares? But you know what? We're really crapping on Ned and there's two really good moments with Ned that I think. One of the good moments with Ned. He's a dad. He's a good husband. Ned's a great character. He gets crapped on because it's like it's so obvious to the reader that like you are literally going to die in this world acting like this. Yeah, well, for sure. But a lot of other people will die as well, which is why Varys and Peter are also like, dude. Like seriously, listen to me. OK, like and he doesn't. But you know what? And this is how George saves him from being in my opinion, because I see a lot of people. We all call him that dumb and we laugh and we have a good time. And it's true. He's not dumb. He's stubborn. He makes a lot of bad decisions in this book. However, he makes the ultimate decision at the end to take. He's going to take the black. Like that is the agreement, obviously. Like we're under that. And I love the detail of Varys running across the court. And what are you doing? You know, and John, he's like, psych. At the end of it all. Ned betrays his honor. Ned finally lays down his honor and has his head removed. Yeah. And that is, in my opinion. The ultimate tragic moment for him. He finally gives in and it just doesn't matter. And this is too little too late. Yeah. Yeah. And this is the difference because I see people now, especially nowadays, right? Like this changed a lot of things in fantasy. But people talk about, oh, Girm just kills people. Like I hear that all the time. Girm just kills people. And that's why people like him. No, no, no, no, no. He doesn't. It's it's the way he gets to that point that is masterful, dude. And that's why the people that tend to kill off character nowadays. I don't think it gets as much of a reaction because they're missing little fundamental pieces along the way. I think when Ned gets his head chopped off, the scene I always think about is him holding Jory, which is much better in the books, by the way. Because it doesn't happen in the show. Exactly. And Jory in the books kind of has more of a role. Like we see him interact with Aria. We see him interact with songs. Multiple times. Almost every chapter until that point. Yes. He's there. When he dies in Ned's arms. Yeah. Oh, it hurts, man. And I think about that. And I said, God, damn, like this is a whole nation that loved Ned. I mean, Ned is the only ruler in the book that people like. Like his beat, his is. Sansa feels it. Because Sansa's like, why don't they go after Jamie? Like, didn't he kill Jory? And she's like, contemplating that. She's talking to Jane. And Jane's just kind of like, I'll lose about everything. But Sansa's sitting there just like, I don't understand. Like, shouldn't they go after him? And it's like. That's sweet. And Sansa, like Ned, Sansa lives long enough to grow up and realize what this world is about. And Ned never had that rude awakening. He just, you know, died. They got the rude awakening, but like immediately beheaded at the same time. Christian said, what would Bobby B say about that Targaryen banner in the background? Jimmy, disgraceful. You're not wrong. I mean, he would probably. I couldn't find a Baratheon one. Also, they don't make go because no one cares. Well, the red and black matches the Bobby B picture. So I had to, you know, aesthetics. I mean, the Targaryens probably should win anyway because they have dragons. They got the new apparently. Dragons are really easy to kill. Have you seen season eight? Listen, listen, if you go by the book logic, that's bullshit to begin with, because unless you pierce their eye, they're not going down that easily. You can't just shoot a harpoon through their throat from 18 miles away. When I thought about season eight. You can, I saw them do it. And ultimately what actually led to the downfall of the dragons was the fact that they kind of neutered them and they locked them up, right? And they only get as big as you let them grow and they got complacent, man. And I think if there's ever been a definition of complacency in West Rose, it's Robert Baratheon. Right, before Alan. Hi, Alan. What's up, Alan? Alan, once you read The Time of Courage, go back and watch our live chat where we definitely don't talk about you at all or you're in characters. It definitely doesn't happen. Your love for HIL does not surprise me that you're also a team of Joffrey. So we'll just throw that up there. But no, the whole like Gern just kills people. One, after like three books, he doesn't really kill that many people. No, and all of them. We'll get to that later. But like in football. Well, I mean, that's one of the fundamental things that the screenwriter showed runners, whatever, misunderstand about everything. Cause it's not just me killing people is a form of shocking you, but it's not the only way to shock. It's not. And everything they do is just to subvert your expectations. But like, the thing is like, when George R. R. Martin is writing things, he's not writing like, well, I just write this whole plot where he seems to be here and everyone's going really, really well. And then for no reason, he dies because that's shocking. No, like we all watched this happen. And we were like, well, he's the hero. And like, you see it though. Like if you read the book and season one for its credit did it very well where you build up Ned, you build up the Starks. Like they, for all 10, you know, for all whatever, like they are the main characters rough. Like for the entire first season, first book, it's like, it's about the Starks, right? Like it's about the Targaryens too, but like they're kind of set up to be the bad guys. The Starks are like the good guys. And it's built up that Ned is this honorable person in this swamp of demons. And he should be, you know, like the good guy, right? And he dies at the end of it for that. And like his whole family starts taking losses left and right. And they should have did that very well, but then it's like, it devolves into a later point where whether it's, they didn't have book content or whatever it is, it's strictly shock value is shooting a dragon out of the sky from under a mountain where they should have seen them. And it's like, oh, just surprise. Like the dragon's dead. The book doesn't do that because like it's built up through the entire thing that like Ned's this honorable guy. King's Landing is a garbage pile. Here's all these shady people making deals, like wheeling and dealing with their enemies. And then he finally meets his demise and you see that affect everything because King's Landing is just a cesspool of like backstabbing and side deals. And it all builds up to that. When people say that, you know, the way that the show ends is because they were told that that's how the books would end. And I'm like, okay, maybe I could totally see that those end points could be the end points and you have to get us there. Well, yeah. And just to lightly touch on it, it didn't make sense for the show runners to use book end points when they took so many things out of the show that were in the books. I mean, they quite, I mean, if you- We're not even just taking things out necessarily, but they also just the characters ended up being slightly different people. Like they aren't exactly the same people that they are in the books. I wish they would have done their own ending. Yeah. This is the best thing I could say. And as we- There's a different story at that point. Yeah, and as we do this read-along, I think when we get in four and five, like we're all gonna look at this and go, oh, wow, this really is different. Like it is very- It's gonna be very different, but like if we ever get George's ending, like he's, let's just say for, he finishes the last two books and like the series is done. I don't think necessarily that ending, I mean, some certain things, but let's say like that season eight spoilers, if you haven't seen it, we've already been talking about it. If Danny burning King's Landing to the ground is what he has in mind, like his, you know, scouring of the shower moment. He'll get us there. If that's what he has in mind, that's fine, but make it make sense. The show didn't make it make sense. And that's the difference because George R.R. Martin is a much better writer for this world of these characters than Benny Off and Weiss will ever be. And that's- That's also the fact that they decided to just like cram story into like so few episodes. Like it takes time to see characters like come to a point where they do such a 180. That doesn't happen overnight. If it does, it's stupid. I can absolutely see the path that like Daenerys Targaryen would go down to get to that point, but it has to make sense. And I trusted it. If he ever writes the books, he'll make it make sense. I mean, let's talk. Oh, go ahead. I was going to say, but like going back to the book Game of Thrones, I feel like the point at which that I as a viewer or I as a reader, I think the moment when you realize that this world is different and that this is not going to be the same is when these seemingly almost like magically faded direwolf pups, that you feel like, whoa, well they're meant to have them. And this is meaningful. And like people die. Yes. But you know, this seems like a significant thing. And then lady dies almost immediately. And then you have to get like sent away and you're like, oh. Well, yeah. George is telling us all along that this is a dangerous world. That's why I pushed back. So I think I mean, like before Ned even, I think that's the moment you're like already like, oh, nothing is safe. Or knowing that Brandon and Ned's dad were burned and killed by a mad king. I mean, you know, and then the king was stabbed in the back by his king's car. I mean, this is, and honestly, we can also talk about the aging of characters. I'm sure. That's one of the, the strength is quickly to that point that like, that's one of the good moments too. Because Jamie, like as much as he set up to be a bad guy, that's a great example of like, he knew what needed to happen in that moment. Because obviously we learn more context later, but like even in a game of thrones, it's like you don't get the full grasp of like why Jamie did that, but he even knew then and there, like in this world, like you can't let that stand. And he immediately, you know, took action. And then again, that comes back to Ned, like Ned could have just grabbed that power right then and there, but he was like, no, I can't. Cause I'm too honorable. It's also super telling that Jamie was sitting on the throne and they talk about that. And you know, in Guerm's original trilogy outline, Jamie was supposed to become king. And as that would have been a nightmare. Dude, right? They're all stress. It is fascinating when you look at the original plot lines of what he wanted to do with the trilogy and you see the foreshadowing that he does in the game of thrones, obviously. And I think it's actually kind of awesome. He takes it and does other stuff with it, but it is cool because one of the things and people get very uncomfortable with this, but it's true. He was going to have Arya and Jon together. Yeah, I remember that. Now to be fair, how he leaned into it heavy in this book, like it's very, it could be broken. Jon is 14. They have a brother-sister relationship where they both kind of feel like they're bastardized and they're both kind of like loners because Jon gets that, you know, rude awakening of the world kind of sucks. Yeah. And I mean, you get Arya's point of view where it's very much parallel to the show where she just feels left out. She doesn't like sunset because she's, you know, pretty girl, wannabe princess. And the worst. She is the worst and Arya just doesn't fit in. And I mean, aside from Serio being bald in the books, like that whole plotline pretty much is like exactly what you see in the show. So like that's, they did a great job there too. Yeah. But you definitely get a feel for like each of these kids and the world that they live in and just how crappy it all is at times. And dude, how good is the scene where Arya throws Joffrey's sword in the water? We've all been kids, I assume. And do you remember like? I was born an adult. I'm Benjamin Buttoning it actually. I'm going reverse. It's not going well. I grew up with these Widow's Peaks. It's terrible. But you know what, when she throws that and that little scuffle, George wrote that. So do you remember having fights as kids? And you're like. Not with swords per se. Well, yes. But you're like, I'm in trouble. You're like, shit, I'm in trouble. And Arya went and hid. Do you remember hiding from your, I hid from my parents. Absolutely. She got her visit. She did. She won't even do something that's bad, but she'll think that it's bad. And I'm like, Elena, what'd you do? And she's just like, nothing. Like just just tell me what's wrong. She's like, you're trying to trick me. You're fine. Just tell me. It's like, just, just tell me. What have you done to traumatize her, Alex? I beat her on a daily basis, you know. Bag or rocks, just stop it. I'm telling you, he writes those kids so well. And one of the things of Sans that we over talking about. Yeah, they act like kids. And Sansa does something after all the beheading and everything that I think is really telling of her character and where it's going to go. She's been worried about Joffrey. She's been worried about how Cersei views her. In the last sentence of one of her, I think her last chapter, she said, and she realized at the end of the night that she had not thought of where Arya was. Like she had. It wasn't her last chapter. It was even before it was like 40 something. And it was like fourth or fifth chapter. I remember it because I read that yesterday. She's talking about all this stuff. I'm like, oh no, I love Joffrey. Like I'm Arya and blah, blah, blah, blah. And then it is the last sentence of that chapter. Like, oh shit, I forgot about Arya. Yeah, because you're so self-centered and worried about Mary to the young prince that even with everything else happening, like Joffrey being terrible, the Targaryens, the Lannisters being awful, like her dad being a traitor and all the stuff that they're feeding her and like the whole, just how tortured she actually ends up because it's kind of sad, right? Cause like Sansa is built up to be this annoying brat, like spoiled character, but you also have to feel bad for her. Cause she's like, she's surrounded by adults. I mean, she is really just tragically naive. She is. And she's surrounded by like Cersei and Varys and all these whore and the pie cell and all these terrible people. Pie cells are all bastards. The traitor is you can't let them breed because the son will be born a traitor. And she's like, no, I promise I'll be good. And then at the end of that, she's like, oh wait, I have a sister, where's she at? And also it is a commentary a bit, especially because we know it's based on, you know, the feudal times within England and whatnot. It is very much a commentary on the fact that we were putting kids in like, she was being betrothed. She shouldn't have been betrothed, you know? It still happens. And that's why people were able to be manipulated. That's why there was really a lot going on. It's not even like the patrolables. It's the what age you could inherit power. Yeah, absolutely. And it's the old guys calling the shots. You know what I mean? It's the reason. I mean, when we think about it, so like, I mean, all these Ned is, you know, like, oh, why won't you listen to these people? But like with Sansa, like, okay, she's a bit bratty. She's a bit self-centered. I give her money. She's naive, but she's being outmaneuvered by like the most manipulative people in the entire continent. Yeah, people that survive to adult age in Westeros, like, are there for a reason. And she is literally a child that doesn't know any better. From the north, where everyone is just like, you do the coming home. Literally isolated. And she always heard, and you know, she wanted to leave home. She always wanted to leave home. She wanted to go see the power hole all the time. High garden. She wanted to do the ultimate monkey's paw. And we all have that. You know, I left my hometown, but I know people who left the hometown as they came back and said, you know, James, it wasn't that great. I'm glad to be home. And I think Sansa, hopefully at one point. She will feel that at some point. Yes. We'll be happy to be home. And I think with Sansa, she obviously reminds me of Malta from Live Ships in a lot of ways. I've heard that, obviously. Malta's the most insufferable character of all time. Yeah, see, Aletta's got it. You see, like, she's insufferable when you rear, but like, if you sit down and think about how awful that would be to be in that position, like, you're just a spoiled kid that doesn't know any better, and then you're thrust into this world of psychopaths. She's not even that spoiled. She's actually the kid who's, like, less spoiled than her friends at school. And that's all she thinks about. She's like, well, why can't I do, like, what they do? Why do we have to be the lame ones? Why can't I be, like, the popular kids? But then the little prince of society comes in and wants to marry you. And it's like, oh, so I am just, like, the best. And it's like, it all goes immediately to her head. And then it's like a, like, complete 180-root awakening of, like, no, this is how the world actually works. And you're in for the worst time of the life. She's literally, like, Mia from Princess Diaries, who, like, finally gets to go on a date with, like, the jock that she had to crush on because she's the princess. She's, like, actually a dick. It's Carrie. She got invited to the prom by the Charmer, and it was all a ruse. And it's all, it has, and obviously this in point, it's about Winterfell, right? But it kind of does remind me of Carrie in some ways. Obviously, they're going to result in different things. I think A Clash of Kings is a great book for songs like. It might be as bloody as Carrie, though. It could be. It could be with George. But I think what we're getting at with all this deceit and manipulation of children and the death, and we were kind of talking about how Gorm does not just kill characters. That's a good point. He sets up the life expectancy here. It's so low. It's so low. So I believe the world is dangerous. Like, I truly believe that. Like, when I hear about going on the King's Road, I get a little claustrophobic. I get a little nervous when I hear someone's going to take the King. You know, Yoren is going to be taking the King's Road. I'm like, probably shouldn't do that, bro. You might not make it. Yeah, you might not make it. Spoiler, you might not make it. Also, Yoren, like, Gorm placing him at the right times. You know, I mean, that's just really good storytelling. We kind of took the casting for the show. Yoren was great. Yes. Yes. In fact, I mean, all the casting was good. It was. Yeah, pretty much. Like, the main reason I bring up the show so often is because I feel like Season 1 adapted the material so well. It was borderline page for page, like as close as any TV show, whatever. Like, quick side note, the one good thing that I think the show did over the books is give you true POVs of Littlefinger and Varys. And Rob. And Rob. And Rob. More so for me just because of, like, the maneuvering and stuff behind the scenes. Like, you only see Littlefinger and Varys through other people's eyes. And you hear whispers. So, like, it keeps them mysterious. But actually getting, like, those one-on-ones with Varys and Littlefinger and just the verbal battles between them, like, all of that for the show was perfect. Honestly, I feel like the weakest characterization in the books is Rob. And I think Rob is much more fluent with it. Irm actually regrets. He said he regrets not doing Rob POV. He's not doing it that much. So, like, OK, I'm not going to spoil it now in case anyone in the chat hasn't read any further. But, like, I spoiled a huge plot point for myself concerning Rob because I was googling, why isn't he a POV? And then accidentally found out information which I then also forgot about. And then it happened. And I was like, oh, I actually knew about this. Well, I did not remember. And it's a furthering on Catlin as a POV, in my opinion, because in the books, there's a switch from the show where she tells Ned to go out of her selfishness to wanting to know what happened to her sister Liza and her family. Cat's bad decisions arguably have worse ripples than Ned's because she's the reason why he went to King's Landing. And I think her entire character arc is kind of her, like, making bad decisions. And she has to face every one of them. I mean, she does make a good decision, though, in the beginning when she decides to stay in Bran's room. Yes. And it's there when the assassin shows up. I know she's making good decisions in between that, trying to get the wolves to be gone. And you're like, no, the wolves stay. But in that moment, she was there. And, again, a great thing that they put directly on screen is like, you're not supposed to be here, even down to, like, the way the guy talked. You're not supposed to be here. Exactly. Thank you. OK, but if she had just let the dire wolf stay with Bran, then everything also would have been fine. Well, she also flips on the wolves. Only because of that, yeah. Yeah, she didn't like the wolves. And then she turned. And then you got to ask yourself, I guess you're useful. Why couldn't she turn her opinion on Jon? Because her treatment of Jon pisses me off. Because Jon never came in and saved Bran's life. That's what you have to do. But in that moment, too, like, reliving that moment where Jon is just, like, trying to say bye to Bran and she's just sitting there just, like, seething, like, get out of here, you bastard. And he's like, look, I just want to say bye. I will literally never see him again. Like, lady, give me five. I'm going to just stand on the 10,000 foot ice wall and never see you again. Like, let me let me say bye. She's just like, like, you will never have to. Should have been you. It should have been you, Jon. That's so tough. So tough. Yeah. My wife hates me. It's a great point. It's like a character there, like, because everything beyond that, like, sneaking into King's Landing. Super risky, super dumb. Also, I love all the times when, like, when, like, Littlefinger helped Katlyn, right? And Ned refuses to believe that. Yep. I love that. But, like, trusting Littlefinger, again, terrible decision. Kidnapping. Which Littlefinger tells him is a terrible decision. He's quite honest. Kidnapping Tyrion, terrible decision. Taking her to Lysa, terrible decision. That worst decision, like, losing Tyrion. This is like everything is compounding. It's fumbled. But honestly, I think it's, I mean, the way that it's paralleling to Ned and Katlyn, both kind of approaching the world in ways that the world isn't, because Ned thought he wasn't doing it. Like, Katlyn's response to Tyrion. It's like very similar to what I do. Well, the Tullies, too, though, the Tullies say, we're going to call on Frey. And we're going to do all these things. I mean, in a lot of ways, you kind of see also that old age is a bit of a problem. Because Hoster Tully is basically dying, right? And he hasn't turned over. He hasn't given it over to Edmure, whoever, Blackfish, whoever he is. Yeah. So, you know, and he doesn't show up to these weddings and disenfranchises Walter Frey. And, like, him not being able to go and do the young man things actually put Tully in a very vulnerable position as well. And are you not the Tully Banner man? And, you know, and he's like, I don't give a shit. Like, I'm good. Sorry, I keep cussing on your channel, Leanna. But, like, I didn't. Yeah, I don't want you to get demonetized or anything. But the, just like the disrespect, you know, they take that as a slight. Everything's so petty among nobles. It kind of reminds me of a Baker quote that I just read in the second book of Prince of Nothing. He talks about how when a king and a king meet or a great and a great meet, they're either relieved that they can finally take off the facade or they feel threatened. And that balances the, between those two reactions, you either have war or you have peace. And, man, does that quote not just wrap up a song of ice and fire in a nice little bow? By the way. Everything's a power move. Yes. This is also, this is another one of the reasons why the later seasons don't work anymore, because, like, these types of situations are how these books go. Where you're like a, like a Tolkien-esque fantasy. You can do the speech about honor and everyone will rally and say, yes. And we've been shown a book after a book, season after season, that that's not how this world works. That if you try to make that cry for valor, people will be like, okay. You do make a cry for valor and everyone's like, yeah, this guy's a fucking idiot. Right, but then in the last season, suddenly we have people doing that, standing up and saying, well, we have to fight. And they're like, yes, you will be our leader. And you're like, what? Long story short, the last season of the show turned into an action movie with dumb logic. Like that's- It was a Michael Bay movie. And not what's gonna happen. They went for spectacle over story. And like, that's why the first couple of seasons of the show parallel so well to the books because they do capture that political machinations and maneuvering and all the little moving pieces and all of the heavy dialogue and everything that the book focuses on where it's a lot of conversations. And it's really a snail's pace. You can't even say that there's action in this book, right? There's like, you start off, you know, prologue, you get introduced to the others. And then you never see them again. Like you hear them talked about briefly with like old Nan and a couple of you, you hear all the stars saying like winter is coming. Like we know how that ended in the show. We don't know how that's gonna end in the books. And even the rest of the Game of Thrones, like if you're reading this on release, you don't even know beyond the prologue really like, what the hell is that? What it does do. I mean, it's another instance where like, it's if it was shown to you and then not even ever mentioned again, it might be annoying me, but because it does get mentioned enough to work. He just drops it back in old Nan. But when people will say it, like it's usually because it's clear that they don't take it seriously. And so the reader has been fed enough information to know they're wrong. And it creates tension every single time it's brought up because you're like, I know you're not taking this. You're used to me and I know you should. Old Nan talks about it as a story. Everybody says, you know, they've been dead for thousands of years. Tyrion's talking about Grumpkins and laughing about everything that the Knights of Washington- Children of the Forest. They're mentioned in book one. There's so much in book one that I forgot was mentioned in book one. Like the Tower of Joy. I painted you guys immediately when that happened. I was like, I did not remember the scene was literally in this book. That's like a season like five or six vision. Yes. And I was like, oh my God, I was literally in this book. And that's the thing. I'm sorry. No, I like what you're saying here because I think it's weird. So things go in waves, right? I think George's foreshadowing is the best in the genre for me personally, right? As long as it pays off. Yes. But also, let's be fair, some people latch on to things that are not things and then they give him credit for those things and we go with it. Well, when you go 10 years between releases, everyone's thought of everything. People don't have anything else to do. Well, of course, but I don't know about you guys, but when I was rereading this, I said, my God, George is a genius. Like he really does. Hey, Jimmy, are you a fan of A Song Ways and Fire? Just a little bit. There's so many of those moments though where you read it because like obviously we have hindsight. Like we've watched all the show, we've read the books, but now going back, you're like, oh my God, even if it's like some theories that are just probably gonna happen, you see those seeds planted in book one and you're just like, damn, like he really has thought of a ton of things. Not see super, people are agreeing with Supergames Bros, but I don't see him. I don't see him in the chat. Yeah, I see him. So I know who that is. That's Matt from Bender Knee, which is Matt of A Song Ways and Fire podcast. No, but so Matt from Bender Knee, Jimmy has even blocked. That's not true. For some reason, I can't explain. I don't know what happened. He doesn't like you. It's right there. All right, Brands Dreams makes it. Directly touch on the forums. Yeah, yeah. So this is Matt from Bender Knee. Bender Knee is one of the biggest song of A Song Ways and Fire podcast and they happen to be really great guys. They were in force, believe it or not. But I was wondering what they were saying because I see people mentioning, I've had this actually, he was in another live stream I was on and I couldn't see his comments. I don't know what's up. They have you blocked me. Maybe, maybe Matt hates me. You're too big a fan. Not fair. Stop it. It's not fair. Christian wants me to roll Cosplay's Girm next stream. Nice. I did do a really good point though. I mean, basically just a Santa Claus outfit. I pointed out to, like not that it necessarily matters, but realize how the show never adopted the term the others, they were always the white walkers. And I realized like a very early chapter when old Nate is talking to Brand. Yes. And almost like lets it slip. She like calls them the white walkers and I was like, and he goes, you mean the others, right? And I was just like, what? Yes. Dude, the term the others is used very significantly. It's almost 100% of the time and she calls them the white walkers and I'm just like, hold up. Hold up. I love it. Oh, God, great. Although I will say the show definitely did a good job of like having that moment where Nate starts telling the dark story and you're like, oh, it's not real. Well, one thing it captured and it's one thing that I think we can all agree with the prologue. This is fantasy, but George is clearly a Lovecraft and horror fan because it mixes a little bit of horror. Like honestly, the white attacking more in the books is pretty chilling. Yeah. The whole prologue is creepy. I mean, even just knowing like the some of the, I mean, if you read the illustrated editions it throws in that picture of the walkers riding giant spiders because it's part of like the old man. But it's like, there's some creepy shit in this man. That's why I said it was a perfect October read because there's literally zombies in it. It is. I just, I absolutely. The whole scene of John at the wall or when the dude stands up, the white stands up and you have to fight him off. Like, it's pretty chilling too. And it's weird because I've seen in the show but I've actually can see it in my head happening in a different way. Like a more horror sense, if that makes sense. You know what I mean? For sure. Like if it was directed by someone else. I mean, John is great in this book in my opinion. Yeah. Okay, but okay. I like John throughout all of the books. I hate him so much. You're not a fan. You're not a fan. And honestly, when you read the books. Earlier when I said all the casting was good, it's because my mind blocked out the existence of Kit Harington. Kit Harington is fine. The show did not give him enough to do as the seasons went on. That's my big issue with the show because he starts out a lot better. And as the series went on, they gave him less and less to do. Yeah, because they realized, oh, he sucks. So let's listen. Maybe he's not going to say that. But you know, you're not going to hit on all of them. Yeah, it's not always a hundred percent. Lustigary asked if there was an old Nan theory. I just want to say that it is almost confirmed that old Nan in Sir Dunk the Tall fornicated at some point. Just saying. Sir Dunk the Tall, hubba, hubba. Hubba, hubba. Old Nan is actually a time-traveling brand as the three-eyed girl is sort of this. I wish. I'm in. Honestly, I'm in. I just made that up on the spot. That's now Canon. Yeah, it's Canon. You could probably make a 45-minute video about it and use the show for it. Here's why this makes total sense. It's so obvious. I feel like this is instead of drunk history, it's a drunk song of ice and fire theories. Yeah, I'm going to say. Well, speaking of that, I'm empty, so I'm going to grab a drink and I'll. Go for it. Yeah, we'll just go. What is he wrong about that we could talk about while he's gone? No, that's great. I mean, I think. I can still hear you. You know, we're talking about John and Christian actually mentioned this in the chat. And I wanted to go over it a little bit because it's one thing, obviously, that's very exclusive to the books is when Tyrion and Girm actually has addressed this before, but Tyrion backflips off of the arches to land in front of John and they have this epic conversation. That was supposed to be the fact that Tyrion had spent time with like bumblers and fools at some point whenever he, I think he was, I'm forgetting the word, when you send your kid off, help me out. You know what I'm talking about? Oh, when fostering? Fostering, thank you. Yes, so he was. When you send your kid, I was like, oh, I'm sorry. I was like, I couldn't remember. But you know, Tyrion was supposed to foster. I think it is Uncle Kevin Lannisters or something like that. And he had a circus came and he learned acrobatics, Girm backed off of it. I think because he was going to have Tyrion maybe do a little bit different things. If you look at the plot lines where you get into the territory of like you have a dwarf character and you're going to make him be like, I think he realized he had more with Tyrion at that spot. I really do. And a lot of people quote that interaction in the multiple interactions that we have with John and Tyrion. Are you able to see this, Jimmy? If I use this account, Jimmy will probably be able to see my comments. Yeah, I actually can. Matt, I don't know why that's doing that, man. It's so weird. Because remember, we had that on another thing, most notably that she is Lady Ronan Webber who is a, yes, who is a character in the second Duggan X story, which is a series of stories that take place 100 years. Yes, old man is Lady Rohan Webber. If you look at all the connections, which we will when we do a Duncan X. You heard it here, folks. It's crazy, dude, Girm, I love this stuff, guys. I mean, this is why I created a booktube channel. And this is why I like, I started... You created a booktube channel so that you would never talk about a song or vice and fire. And I was like, hey, how about when you read them? And you're like, okay. Let's do it on the latest channel instead of mine. Let's just do that. Like, I'm like, I don't want it on my channel, but... Wait, why should I be drinking a glass of red wine to be Cersei? I mean, honestly. Excuse me. Also, real quick, can we just address it? And I'll continue on my John and Tyrion rant, but can we also address the fact that Cersei tried to sleep with Ned Stark in the book? You remember? She like having this conversation. She's like, oh, what do you want, Ned? And you're like, wait, are you about to do it in the garden? I mean, I feel like Cersei is, well, she's cut throat. Like, she'll do whatever it takes. She wanted it, he says. She did, man. I think everyone's a little curious what's going on with the dire wolf, you know? Oh. Yes, thank you, Dariot. It is way more awesome also, way tastier. Apparently, Ben the Knee did an episode on the old man and Rohan Weber. So that, I think, yeah, I just listened to it. Yeah. Ben the Knee has great, great stuff, guys. Their YouTube channel is phenomenal and they have a weekly podcast and they have been doing the reread one chapter a week so you get like super in-depth stuff and it's really great. And Alex is back, so I can continue my rant. Well, you better explain to him why he's wrong about Nan, because he missed it. What did I miss? We know who Nan is and you don't and maybe we shouldn't tell you. We'll just know it and you don't get to know. Old Nan is Rohan Weber from Dunkin' Egg book two. No, I said it was time traveling, I already established it. Yeah, I forgot. We're gonna have to have a serious debate about this. They're gonna have to do a new podcast episode with their like, sorry, guys, last week we had some misinformation. We're gonna update you now. It is time traveling, Brandon Stark, okay? It's clearly that, right? Read the book, please. Raffo, read and find out. So Tyrion does the tumble off the arc, lands in front of Jon, which was funny. But the thing about their combo and things that go beyond that is the very, well, one, it's really cool to see Tyrion and Jon be friends, by the way. Like I like that camaraderie quite a bit. So I mean, just in general, I love the part of Tyrion going to the wall and like doing the thing that no one else is really like bothered to do. Yeah, it shows the difference between him and his family, right? And we get some really important quotes from Tyrion here that I think foreshadowed the endgame for Tyrion. A lot of people correctly adapted to the show too. Yeah, because he says he actually admits that he had daydreamed when he was younger about burning his family members alive. Like that? Are we gonna go down the whole Targaryen? No, no, no, no, no. No, but I do think that it shows that Tyrion is not so like, obviously he likes being a Lannister, but like, and what that means. But I mean, in general, I mean, Tyrion's characterization in the books is a lot darker. He's, I mean, Peter Dinklage is just a lot more charming and likeable. Peter Dinklage is too pretty, honestly. He's a great little guy. He's just pretty though. He just has this like, he's just very like sympathetic and he like, he'll say hard things, but it'll be in a way where you're like, aw, but like you've got a heart of golden or there, don't you? The showmaterian, well, one Peter Dinklage is just awesome, but the showmaterian just like a cocky, like cool character, whereas like he is that in the books, but he's also like horribly deformed in like different colored eyes and like he looks more of like an imp that people call him rather than just like Peter Dinklage, who's just like a good looking guy. Yeah, he's charismatic and like, yeah. I think Tyrion's a villain. I think Tyrion, by the end of this series. He's a likable villain though. Yes, absolutely. I think people would be rooting for him. He's like a super interesting, fun to read kind of villain. I think he burns. He's like the kind of villain that, I mean, as much as you laugh at the idea of a villain having like a backstory that actually makes them sympathetic, but he's got that because like how it's been treated like. That whole story. Oh man, do we need to talk? Because that did the show. I don't think the show even got into it until like later season. Oh, about what his brother did with the. Yes. Yeah. I mean, they do talk about it in the show. Did he tell the story in season one? Yes, he does tell it in season one. I think he tells it to Shea, right? He tells it to Shea and Bron and Bron said, I would have killed the man. Oh yeah, when they're doing the. Oh yeah, Bron is also kind of better in the show. Well, yeah, Bron actually. Well, Bron's a character in the show. Yeah. Until he's a terrible character, but. Well, everyone became terrible by then. So yeah, the show did give Tyrion some of the dialogue from Donald Noy. Yes. But Donald Noy is so good in the books. That is true. The wall is very different in the books, in my opinion. I think it's a lot more fleshed out, which isn't surprising, right? But you can get more done. Exactly. And you get to dive into those details. And I think that with John and Tyrion's conversation at the wall and Tyrion specifically saying dragonfire to burn his family, it is my prediction. Okay, so are we going to the Targaryen thing again? No, no, but I think Tyrion's going to burn Casterly Rock. On what, a dragon? Maybe with Dany. Maybe with Dany. Is he a secret Targaryen? No, I mean, I do love that, if I'm being honest. You look like an extra crazy conspiracy theorist when you're like, so is he secretly a Targaryen? So how about this? It's one of the most well-known theories about the Song of Ways to Fight, right? Like. Well, there's a very interesting relationship between Aries and Tywin Lannister. Tywin Lannister only ever bent the knee to Aries. You know what I mean? And Aries was a deviant man. Like, I don't know. I mean, I don't think I subscribe to that theory if I'm being honest. It is interesting that he had dragon dreams, like canon. First of all, Jimmy has a Targaryen banner behind him. I don't buy it for his stuff. I'm biased. That he doesn't buy into all the secret Targaryen theories. Okay, I'm just going to throw that out there. Yeah, I am biased, right? Let's be fair. You know, speaking of Targaryens, we've managed to not talk at all about Dany. Well, yeah. And I was going to ask you guys. We managed to not talk about a lot of things. We talked, we spent like 45 minutes on that. I mean, we've stayed pretty much at like King's Landing and a little bit of Winterfell, but. Okay, so let's talk with Targaryens. Who do you want to talk about first? I would love to ask you. Lannisle. That's Lannister. I would love to ask you guys, how do you feel about Dany in book one? And do you see traits of the Mad King within her? No. So, okay. The way the book one, and again, they portrayed it rather well in the show. Book one, you get, you know, the Viserys and Dany dynamic. Her talking to Euryrio. Viserys is the worst. Viserys is just so bad. Jesus. Like, oh my God, he's the worst. Don't anger the dragon. But it's also, I mean, okay, but Viserys, I feel like if they try to make him, he's still whiny, but he's a little bit more sinister in the show, like a credible threat. But in the book, he's such a, you're like, can you shut? He's such a doofus. Please be quiet. First of all, in the show, in the book, I don't think he is ever coming across as a threat. Like, you know, like someone's gonna kill this guy because he's just too- I just feel like those moments where, like, is that actor, like when you'd get really up close to Amelia Park, he would look like a credibly, like threatening person in those scenes. Whereas in the book, you're just like, God, I hear you. He's also the narrator for Duncan Egg's audiobooks. Nice, that's cool. I mean, so, so Danny in the book. Oh, that actor is? I don't see, it's really good. Did you know that actor is a descendant of Dickens? Oh my God, I'm not even talking about anymore. Sorry, I'm talking about Viserys. We're still on topic, kind of. Is Dickens a family in Westeros? Yes, I like that. Didn't you know that Game of Thrones is actually a history of Europe? That's where I got my knowledge for all my exams. Where did the dragons go? Who knows, we'll talk about it later. Danny in the book though, I don't think, I don't really see any Mad King in her even more so than the show did. Like it portrays her still as a very like beaten down sort of under the control of her brother kind of character. She's also like 13. So yeah, I mean, elephant in the room. The show aged characters up for a good reason. I mean, if you think about the book directly as like how old some of these characters are, like she's, I'm sorry, Danny. I mean, honestly, like Ned should look like Rob. Because Ned's 33 or whatever. But I mean, Danny's character though, like, she kind of ends up accepting where she's at with the Dothraki and then like starts to take control and realize that she can sort of like be in command. And even at the, even in a biased Dothraki when she's eating the heart, like she's still like, it's disgusting, but she's still, she's not like a mad person because Viserys comes in drunk off his ass, like swinging a sword around and she's still like, no, please like chill, dude. Like I'll give you the eggs, like come, hang out, relax. Like she doesn't want him to go, but she realizes that he's like down that path. And then, you know, what happens, happens. She's just like, well, he wasn't dragon at the beginning of this. I mean, I feel like if there is- I can't burn dragon. So it's like, I don't say, I don't think anything until maybe that point where she's- Yeah, I was gonna say like if there's anything that's like an inkling of her being kind of- I can't burn a dragon. Like that moment is like, okay, she's kind of like accepting- It's a little sociopathic. Yeah. Well, I think that, that's the point where I said, okay. And we cheer, but I think it's very important. You're like, oh, you're cold as ice. It's the same thing in the show though, right? Cause like you cheer for all those moments because everyone that she kills like deserves it, right? It's perspective. That's what this- I feel like the thing about that scene that makes it chilling and makes it seem like, you know, foreshadowing for her being a mad dragon or whatever, is that because there's this difference between her ultimately feeling no remorse about her brother's death and her being like, well, he wasn't the dragon. And you're like, oh, that's a little crazy. Yeah, I think that- And she does have a moment of respite after the fact where she thinks about her brother and it's like an instant. She goes, oh, I feel bad. And then she moves on. Just get used to it. And I was like- Oh no. Yeah, it was very odd that she was able to justify it so fast. You can't really blame her though, too. Cause like- But so again, like if it was just her being like, I don't feel remorse for this terrible person being dead, but it's the whole like, well, he wasn't a dragon. You're like- Well, one, you get that angle, but you also have to remember like she's 13. Her brother was willing to literally tell her to her face. Like, I'll let the entire Dothraki horde have you and their horses if it gets me on my throne. Like she spent her whole life like away from home under the foot of her brother. And then he finally gets- They're selling banners for the Targaryens because they want us to come back. They're selling you banners in the darkness. They sing your praises. She even says that. She goes, like, home, what is home? Yeah, she doesn't know home. She doesn't know home. She doesn't know that. She doesn't know that. And it's a fairy tale that she's grown up with. Yeah. And it's fascinating to think about also the fact that in this circumstance, this would make, if Dany were to go down a mad dragon path, she would be a sociopath. Yes. Where Aries was a psychopath. And there's a distinct- I guess he was hearing voices and all that, you know. And he grew up rotten. I mean, from birth, something was wrong, probably due to the inbreeding, right? In the family. Oh, does inbreeding have an effect on that? Apparently, I heard it. So Fine Reeds brings up that point. Yes, there is. So the show did not, didn't really do it. After he, like, she stops the horde. He walks to the door. And Bissaris is like, how dare you? And she is like, take his horse. He can walk back. Like, just like, get behind the horde. Like, you're not shit here. And she immediately was just like, you get to walk home, bro. Yeah, and that's the first moment you kind of pump your fist a little bit, you go. Yeah. Because that's a little bit into like the, she's buying into like her role in the Dothraki. And like, oh, I actually have power. Like, let me test this out for a second. Yeah. And I also think that in the books, one of the things that's really well done, and this is something that George needs to be recognized for. And it's very evident in book one, but I think he also does in book five. When we get to that, I'll talk about it. But he is very good at getting over a culture and the way they operate and the way their politics works and the way they handle conflict in a very short amount of time. The Dothraki are extraordinarily flushed out in book one, where we expect things from Cal Drogo whenever he gets faced with the series of disrespect. We know what's going to happen, right? Oh, yeah. Danny is also way more ingrained in that culture in the books. And I think that her thought process, along with the childhood trauma, which by the way, I think Game of Thrones is all about childhood trauma. Listen to everything about childhood trauma ultimately. Absolutely, absolutely. That's actually a pretty good point. But I think her handling of issues later in the series is going to be largely based on the Dothraki culture. Well, for sure. Because all she is is a Targaryen by name. She doesn't know anything about it. I mean, she comes in being an amalgam of a bunch of influences because then she comes to know other cultures other than the Dothraki, but they're all foreign to Westeros. So she will come in very much as a foreign invader because her idea of how the world works is formed not just by the Dothraki, but by everywhere else that she's come into her power. I mean, her all ties to Westeros are Jorah, to be honest. I mean, Jorah's ex-communicated exile with Graham Westeros. Can we talk about Jorah? He's a real pissed about Ned Stark. Dude, Jorah's creepy as shit. I'm out of cultures. Yeah, I mean, that's what it looks like in the book, Alex. Tell us, what's he look like? He is very old. He's balding. He's ugly. They gave him the Tyrion Lannister glow-up in the show. He's very old. He's probably like 35 and a half, because very old in this world is like, I'm basically on my deathbed. He is certainly not old, bald, and ugly in the show. And Danny is not a 13-year-old child. So there's that. Jorah is not likable in the books. I mean, he is insofar like he does make the choice to save her life. And you're like, OK, you're on our team. Yeah. I guess he weirdly gets really close to her super quick, where he's so willing to just kind of toss Viserys to the side. But again, it goes back to this is the world that you're in. You realize who's worth sticking by and who's not for good or for bad. If it means you're a survival, and you know ultimately, Viserys is never going to be king, you can't trust this guy for shit. You're going to toss him to the side of the second. Someone point out, like, would you want Viserys to be king? And she's like, Jorah says that. Yeah, Jorah is pretty much. Jorah was like, could you see Viserys on the throne? And she's just like, no, I wouldn't trust him to fucking take me and sandwich. Like, he doesn't say that. Because that's not the lines of the books. Just in case you were wondering, you don't. Hey, sandwiches are invented in the heroes, not in a song about fire. Typically, you don't bake sandwiches either. Just throw them out there. But I mean, I don't know how you make sandwiches, Alex. I wasn't going to throw shit. I make them in the oven. Toaster up. No, just a regular ass up. Isn't it interesting that it's very consistent with Jorah's character, though? I mean, he's a guy who's willing. You know, he's talking. You know, he's essentially talking smack on his future king. Because at this point, we don't know he's going to die, right? But, you know, he also traded some slaves and he got caught. And it's like, man, Jorah is consistently just a little too much. Let's see the thing about that, though, is like, because Ned Stark is the honorable guy like, oh, you sold them into slavery, your exile. Like, you don't deserve to be here. But they were poachers. It's not like they were like good people, right? So, like, Jorah sold some poachers to some slavers. That's not good. But like neither were the poachers. But Ned, by the law, Jorah brings it up, though. He spits on the ground. He's like, ah, Stark, like, he's so mad. Just like, this is the reason I'm in here. Because, like, what Ned did was to, like, he didn't just, like, punish him. He, like, ruined his entire life. He's like, well, that's an overreaction. And it's going to be interesting to go into book two, because I don't remember. Obviously, information travels very differently in this time period, right? Which is one of the things I love. I think Danny doesn't even know that Robert Rathen is dead until- They don't have Twitter. Yeah, they're not on social media. Until season eight, when they can just, like, teleport. If well, yeah. That was also the traveling in this book is phenomenal, by the way. Well, so that's another thing there, right? Because if, just briefly, like, for a glimpse into the future of the books, like, initially George was going to do a five-year time jump between the last two, right? Yes. And he didn't. So from, like, a Game of Thrones to book five is, like, a two-and-a-half-year gap. So much stuff happens. So much happens, but not a lot of time passes. Yeah. So, like, I feel like if we go to wins, like, there's got to be a time jump somewhere. I hope there is. Because Brian is, like, seven. But I don't know what you were about to say about traveling in time, but I feel like he does a good, because, like, a lot of books that have traveling, he will be like, oh, there's that sloggy bit in the middle where they're traveling. And here, like, to be able to convey how great the distances are, but also not make you feel like, oh, we're traveling. Because you make it interesting by having interesting characters and strategically adding plot points and POVs in between that, so you don't just feel like you're on a wagon for 100 pages, where, like, you get those, like, 20 pages of great dialogue with, like, Robert and Ned as they're going to King's Landing. And then it's, like, oh, by the way, now we're in SS. Now here's Danny. And then you come back, and they're a little bit further. Not there yet, but, again, you get, and then you get those, like, tidbits of, you know, Ned calling back to, like, him thinking about Diana and, like, the promise, and, like, you're getting so many juicy bits, and then it cuts away, and then it comes back. It's not just, like, oh, here's page 76, and we're still on this G.D. wagon, like. And, and Girm flushes out every piece of traveling with landmarks and history. And that is reason. Yes, and that's it, right? And some of the landmarks he points out in the first three books show up in Dunkin' Egg. Yeah. And it's just one of those things where it could be a throwaway in some of the more throwaway lines, right? But that is one thing that Girm encapsulated from the Tolkien fantasy, because Tolkien's traveling, in my opinion, is also very, it can be a little much, but I do think it's, it's one of the But I mean, George R. R. Martin also, I mean, a lot of modern authors are better at this, although a lot are very bad at this, but finding more organic ways to, to give you information about the world instead of just stopping to, like, sing you a song about the history of the world. It's like, you know, there's a much, the information, I never feel like, ah, and we're getting dumped information about the, it never feels like that. Traveling is a skill to write, and Girm is maybe the best at it. But traveling isn't as impressive as just the amount of lore and history that you, and politics that you get dumped, but at the point that it's dumped. Yes, especially in this book one, Arya going down and listening to Illyrio, and then her, it's, it's the pit of dragons and she knows, I mean, it's just, man, it's, it's sort of like realizing where she is, and then like the context of the dragon skulls, and then coming back to Ned, and like a crappy game of telephone, because like she can't be coherent and tell him exactly what's going on. He's just like, like you know, you know as the reader, like, oh man, some, some shit's about to go down. But I feel like other books could have like given us like all of this information about each of these houses, has its own like animal symbol, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and you'd be like, I don't remember any of that. But when we get to Arya hearing them talking about the lion being like, you know, we know what they're talking about. If you talk about the wolf, we know what they're talking about. Like we're, we're up to speed. He's so smart about it. Yeah, it's not like they sit down in a classroom and they're like, now here's what the stark symbol stands for. And from chapter one, they play a role because this is something I forgot. The wolf that is dead, the wolf mother that birthed, the pups was killed by a stag's antler. Which I think the show did a good job of highlighting that without making it too corny and too- I forgot about it. They hold it, I mean, the book hits on it pretty hard. And then it comes back again later when like Ned's thinking about it, because he's like, oh, the dire wolves and the stag, like, he's thinking about it. Oh my God. Catalan thinks about it. She goes, oh, what an omen. Yeah. What foreshadowing. Oh, God damn. Oh, that's the best, man. It's the best. Great. It's all set up so well. I think of, and I was thinking about this the other day because someone pointed out to me, but Sanderson in Stormlight, I really like Stormlight a lot. I love it. But he doesn't do a lot of travel. Get some more to drink. Perfect. Good time, Leanna. Roshar, he actually doesn't do a lot of traveling. And Sanderson actually admits, he says, I don't do travel very well. And I've actually come to notice, and that's one of the things in Stormlight that I'm a little lukewarm on. Like, I wish there was more traveling. And I've come to notice that that's one thing as I've read more and more fantasy books trying to find like the next song of ice and fire is that there are just not a lot of authors that are great at mechanically doing travel. I would like to say before they are hanged. Oh, I love that. I just need to point out, we got to one hour and 11 minutes. This is a record. Before Leanna mentioned Joe Abercrombie, ladies and gentlemen. You have to mention Joe Abercrombie and Brandon Sanderson in every fantasy stream, actually. It's mandatory. But I usually like make it like five minutes before being like, so Joe Abercrombie does this thing where? Well, it's Joe Abercrombie wrote the forward to Game of Thrones Folio Society edition. And it was a joy to read. I wouldn't know. I don't have it. So you want to share with crowd? I mean, I can read it if you guys want. I'm a terrible narrator, especially after. Are you worse than the song of ice and fire narrator? Listen. I've heard that some of the audiobooks are good and some of them are terrible. The first three are better than the last two, for sure. But I think overall the quality is suspect. But here's the thing. Roy Detroit was a best friend of George R. R. Martin and he has passed away now. Is he like an old man reading much of like 13-year-old? The thing is, though, it's not the oldness. It's the heat. He can't even decide how he wants to pronounce anything. Instead of Peter, he just pronounces it any kind of way. I've been told that everyone sounds like they're chain smokers. It's just hilarious considering they're all like 13 and younger. But again, he could just sound like that, but the fact that he can't even decide how he wants... He could do it wrong, but consistently wrong. But he just, whatever he felt that day, like saying the name and you're like, it was different in the previous show. Okay, hold on. He's one of the pyromancers. Yes. Hold on. Is he like the crazy one that gives Cersei the... No, no. He's not explaining wildfire to me. Wildfire. Bron and what's his name? I think he's in the back shelving, but then the knee will be able to... They know every kind. So he's not the crazy old one that's just like, like when all the wildfire explodes, and he's just like, oh my God, my precious. Yeah, I... So Roy... That's pretty great, though. The history of Roy DeShreese and George R. R. Martin is they both are huge Shakespearean fans. Okay. And they worked on Beauty and the Beast together as a theatrical promotion within the UK. I would like to point out that that's not Shakespeare. Well, no, no, fair enough. But I'm saying it extends like that. Gaston is part of Shakespeare. Yes, Beauty and the Beast is clearly part of Shakespeare. Now, I really wish that I could have like a Shakespeare version of Beauty and the Beast. Is Beauty and the Beast like the cartoon or the god-awful, soulless reboot? I think it's a Broadway and UK show. Fair enough. Or maybe it was for the BBC. It could have been the BBC. Because they did it for Broadway of like the Disney version of Beauty and the Beast on Broadway. This was, I don't know. Chad says you're wrong. They said the 80s. There, okay. So Roy was on that with Gorm. And Gorm, uh, Gorm. That's a Gorm. I'm drunk. Gorm loved Roy. And they became best friends. And that's... And he demanded Roy do the... I agree. I definitely agree with that. I know that reference. Someone put up a GIF of... Cap, I understand that reference. That's the 80s Beauty show. Darry, give me a break. Geez. Geez. My patrons are brutal, man. Don't give him a break. They hate me. Annihilate him. I think we all learned tonight that Jimmy's a fake fan, but carry on telling us about... I don't think he's read... Confirmed. Fake fan. Hater. He's just been watching this Beauty and the Beast show and he's just on the basis of that. I thought it was Broadway. I didn't even know. Okay. So anyway, other than Jimmy being entirely incorrect about Beauty and the Beast, who have we not talked about character-wise? So we talked about... We haven't really talked about John other than me hating Kit Harington. So we'll talk about John, who I love very much. Kit Harington is fine. He's a lovely lad. He will live off his... I hate to view you. He will live off his Game of Thrones royalties forever. And so... He's an Eternals that launched today. Trash. So it's Rob Stark. Who put both of them in the Eternals? What is going on? See, now I'm getting off the topic. But Richard Bann is a phenomenon. I love Richard Bann. I love Richard Bann and Jimmy in the movie. Anyway, before we talk about Marvel rejects, let's talk about John in the book. John in the book is fantastic. He is fantastic. So let's talk about... And I feel like a lot of... So actually, John is the one that... I... Most is a lot because there's a lot of characters that are probably not thinking of everyone. But I most think of John when I think about the age difference between the book characters and the screen characters. And he's the one that least well transitioned to being older, if that makes sense. Where like, Danny, it's awkward that she's 13 even in the book. You're like, this seems older. And like... It's very awkward in the book for Danny because when you think about Cal DiRogo... And just like... But I mean, a lot of the characters act... I mean, Sansa, the way that she's in the show, that's... It's appropriate for her to act that way. Arya looks fine. Rob is fine because he already acts kind of very much older than his age. But John is the one who acts very mature for a 14-year-old, but still a 14-year-old. And then you have like, you know, 80-year-old looking Kit Harington playing this like, Mopey bastard. How old is this called? It doesn't work because like... He's fine in the first couple of seasons. And then they forget to give him lines. Like John's behavior is a bit childish. But for a 14-year-old is quite mature. But having somebody look as old as Kit Harington, it doesn't... You can't give it a pass and be like, you're mature for your age. You're like, you're so immature for your age. Grow the fuck up. But like the first season or two, I think it works. Like because you have to age... So first of all, you have to age everybody up for the show. So then they should have made him less immature in his behavior. It only works in the book because he's 14. But then that changes his character. You can't... You can't put a bunch of 13-year-olds getting raped by grown-ass Dothraki in the TV show. It's just one 13-year-old. It's not a bunch. Well, there's a lot of children in this story. We'll just put it that way. John... So in the show, I feel like they adapted John as a character pretty well in the first two seasons while aging him up a little bit. I understand your critique, but like, yes, it makes more sense in the book that he's more naive and kind of like a child because he's a... He's, what, 14? I mean like specifically the scene that totally works for me in the book, absolutely. And then I just... Is the genesis of my hatred in the show? Is when like he's training, right? At the wall... I need to go sit in like my psychiatrist chair and like talk to you about this. When he's training... Is the genesis of your hatred for Kim Harrington? He like hates them all for sucking and he's like beating them all and it's like a point of pride for him. And like it is pointed out to him, well, do you think they were ever trained? Do you think they ever had sword masters teaching them how to do this? Like, do you realize how rude you're being and how like they're doing the best that they can? And he's like, oh, yeah. But having Kit Harrington, who looks like he has a mortgage, being like, oh, yeah. No. Well, so, so hold on. Because first of all, actors and TV shows, even if they're playing 16, they're probably 23. So like... I mean, if it's Greece, then they're probably like 40. So he was already old, but like he's still... He's just playing like an older teen in that same role, as opposed to being like 12 or 13. What... I forget the ages in the books. How old is he in book one? 14. How old is Rob then? Because Rob's older, isn't he? 15. Rob is 15 turning 16 for his next name day, yeah. And you use name day because you're a dork. John is how old? 14. 14. Okay, so he's 14. So the show probably made him 17. Or 30. Yeah. He shaves. He doesn't have a beard. I'm just saying Rob Stark like totally works for me. And he's not really different from me as in the book. And part of it is that in the book, he's like, I have to be the leader now because Ned's gone. And so he's like already acting more mature. How can you... The immaturities of John make him a compelling character? How can you be okay with Rob's casting and character in the show when he's got a full beard and he acts like a grown-ass man with... But I'm saying like he already acts like a grown-ass man in the book when he really shouldn't, because he's a kid. And so that works that he's older now. 25-year-olds that act like children, Leanna. I know there's one I could say specifically that we talk about on a regular basis that acts like a 13-year-old child. So don't give me that. Yeah. Get him. I mean, it's just like... Brother's Creed out there. It should have... They should have done something to me. It's... It's part of what makes John though a really compelling character is because like similar to Sansa but not as egregious as Sansa, he's having a rude awakening of how many times he's taken for granted something, he's misunderstood something, he's learning his place in the world in a really rough way. And so like Sansa still looks quite young and dull-eyed and it's very believable that she's like having this rude awakening. And Kit simply doesn't. And it's just so hard for me to accept that this grown-ass man is like finally figuring out some life lessons. I think... I think John... John in the books also is a little bit less self-absorbed in the fact, even in the way he's written, because we get a lot from Tyrion through John's conversations, but we also get a lot from all the people at the... Like if you think about the responsibility of what the John POV brings to A Song of Ice and Fire of the Books, it brings every single person from the wall. It's actually really impressive with Alan Thorne, Donald Noy, Master Amen, who we find out is a Targaryen in book one, which is insane. Sam... Which is a fantastic conversation. Jimmy, you think... Which is another moment for John to realize his place in the world. Hold on. He just said Master. Oh, is that the Master? Master, it's the Master. I've had a few examples. I already told you Jimmy's a fake fan. You fake a Song of Ice and Fire fan. Anyway, please... He was trying to save himself with the Nameday thing, but you're not fooling anybody. Jimmy, you're a fake fan. I mean, yeah, you get the Master Amen bit. You get Sam, you get the... You get Benjen Stark. You get Benjen Stark, who is way bigger of a deal in the books, in my opinion. Yeah. Which is always the unfortunate thing. You get a better grasp of it. The show are really like the casting for Benjen Stark. I feel like the actor they chose was really good. The casting is great. But you get... I feel like the books do a better job of grasping how long Benjen's been missing. Yes. Been missing. Really. It's been half a year. It's been like six months he's been gone before they even find that... Before Ghost comes back with that hand. Yeah. Yeah, that's actually a good point too. I think that... And they also... Benjen missing is a huge deal because there's not that many Rangers at the Wall. And there's a whole lot less than there used to be. And... Let's think. So like at what... So because you don't get it in this book, right? So like speculative time, like all those towers on the Wall, like thousands of Night's Watch members, there's three castles that have anybody manned. You've got Eastwatch. You've got Castle Black. And the one no one cares about. Which is like the Edge Lord Castle. Castle Black. The Edge Lord Castle. So it's like you've got like nobody left. Your Rangers are starting to go missing. You've got Mance Raider, like gathering beyond the Wall. Like what... Like you're already, it's just from like a lower perspective like what the hell happened that like... And who is Mance Raider? Exactly. Like you really want it out. Well, which is why I think... Okay. So we talked before about how like that it opens, right? And so if you open your book with this, it has to be important with the White Walkers. And so you're planted the seed of like this is a real thing that we need to be concerned about. And so then every time they're mentioned like flippantly by anybody in the South, you're like no one should take this seriously. And then when you see how the state of what's going on at the Wall is, then you, more so than John, more so than like anybody who works there, you're like, no, you should be even more stressed. And that's why it's so frustrating, right? Because we see it. And that's the brilliance of the writing is like he drops that immediately and then like backs off, right? Yeah. Like he shows you like... But again, that's why it's not a situation where you're like, well, it'll pay off later. It's already paying off now because it's contextualizing so many scenes. No one else knows. And everyone thinks it's a joke, which the show totally crashes and burns with it. But the book... You mean it's season eight, not in season one. The book is like, here's the thing. It's going to be in the background forever that you're probably not going to hear much about until you need to. So every time it's brought up, they're just like, like the Night's Watch is like a joke, right? It's a bunch of rapists and murderers and thieves. Right, which is also a Tyrion is that rude awakening that it gives John. He's like, I don't think you know what you're signing yourself up for because you're honorable. Your super honorable dad didn't feel like cluing you in on the state of the world. The whole Ned being like, I'll tell you about your mother the next time we talk. Oh, by the way, go to this ice wall a million miles away from everybody and never speak to me again. But it was John's like, John wanted to do that. Because he has this perception of like, oh, my uncle is a straight stranger. Who gave him that restructuring at his dad who was like, oh, it's such a robe and tall. You're like, maybe you shouldn't be so dishonest. And maybe Ned thought this is just the best way to go. Like this is the less drama. Maybe that's the most simple life he could live if he goes to the wall and people forget him. But it's cruel to set him up with such like a false idea of what it is. Like what would have happened to John's character if he didn't go to the wall? Catlin would have murdered him. I think he would have been, well, let's be honest, he would have inherited Wernherfell. How? Because Rob would have just gone with Rob. Probably would have just gone to war with Rob, yeah. Yeah, he would have gone to war with Rob. But I'm just saying if Rob ends up where he's at, I mean, he probably would have been in the red wedding. Let's be honest. Even before that, Catlin would have been like, whoopsie, he died in battle. Oh no, what are that? We'll see this in the Clash of Kings. She worries about Rob's will and who he's going to leave it to. And we'd actually, and that is an unsolved mystery. We're going to talk about getting to their own streaming. No, you're right, actually. Ben Anise says, Mance Raiders mentioned in each of the first four chapters. That's interesting. So does Ned talk about him? Well, here's the thing. Let's also remember Mance with future knowledge. Mance is at the feast. He's there. He's the Bard. Is he? He's in Game of Thrones. Yeah, he's there. All right. Yes. Did I? Oh my. Guys, goaded. Absolutely goaded is the series. Oh my goodness. What chapter was this in? Guys, I'm getting hype. Let's go. Which one? The feast? Which feast? Hold on. Whenever Benjin comes and visits and the king meets and Mance says. In Winterfell? Yeah. Hold on. He's there. Jimmy's too excited. Guys, I've been waiting to just yell about this shit for like two years. If you thought you were going to be yelling that I'm impressed by your restraint. Bro, hold on. Because I'm a dumb dumb and I don't remember this. How did he get in there with no one knowing? Like, do they not recognize him? It's a John chapter. Yeah. So who recognizes him though? Well, no. So he's not directly mentioned. But it's the later revealed that he's that. Yeah, they got it. Ben, then he's got it. What? Yes. And also. Did he sneak in? Well, think about it. Mance sneaks into Winterfell and a later date in the book we'll discuss in a few months. He sneaks in then too. First of all. Crazy. I've been drinking. But second of all, I've gotten so much of the books because so much of my knowledge now is from the show. Show, right? Yeah. Makes no sense anymore because as I read in the book, I'm like, oh, this was never in the show. This never paid off. I think. Right. Jimmy and I experienced the books in the show like the same way, right? Where we both saw the first season of Game of Thrones, then we stopped, read all of the books, and then watched the show from there on. Yeah. That's so good though, because I don't remember any kind of like what the payoff is there, but the fact that he's there, like, what does that say about? Mance is important. Like. Just that he's just the fact that he's there. Like that just. It's wild, dude. It shows you that wildlings are way more capable than what their soul is being. Oh, stop. Okay. Are we going to go down the road of everyone's a goddamn party? Well, there is a rumor and I actually used to be a big fan. One of the biggest A Song of Ice and Fire theories, because trust me, I've poured over countless hours. You've been in your master's study? Of A Song of Ice and Fire's theories between YouTube and Reddit for years, is that everyone is a secret Targaryen, and I hate it. It's so fun. I hate it. Well, man, it's like everyone in Star Wars is actually a Skywalker. Every character like sees a fire and they're like, does that mean he's a dragon? No, it doesn't. So I won't. Well, because I mean, there's a whole nother fire element brought into it later in the later. But Light of the Seven. I will wait. No, I mean, what's her name? Red-haired lady. Well, Milisandre. Yeah, Milisandre. That fire situation. Did you see the Clash of Kings art for her? Did I show it? Here, I'll show it. Yes. It's insane. From which edition? Look at those shorts. Everybody please pay attention to Jimmy's thighs. He works out. He does not skip leg day. Oh, hey, Jimmy. We weren't talking about you. Oh, never. Dude, look at that art. She looks like Art Phoenix. Inside the sea. Yeah, she does. It's all four sides. And it's just so sad. Is that her Game of Thrones or Clash of Kings? This is the Clash of Kings. Yeah, she's not in Game of Thrones. So you'd be like, what's this? I know that. Thank you. Fake fan hater. Listen, people buying Folio Society have probably read the books. Oh, I thought you were going to shit on me for it. Either that or they just have money to burn. Like, these look cool. And they have billionaires. Oh, what is this? What is this? What is this song? And why is it fire for $215? Let me buy this. No, that's a fan buying that book. Oh, yeah, Dairy actually has it. Correct. He didn't sneak in. He joined the trail behind the the free riders behind Robert. And Robert actually mentions that they had a bunch of free riders with them. I mean, he basically snuck in though, because they know who Mansa is. It's still the cement. It's still sneaking in, right? It's sneaking in in the sense that, like, they know who Mansa Raider is. So if he was there, they probably would have said something if they knew who he was, like, that he was there. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. So also through John, we didn't even talk. I mean, all the wildling information we get is pretty much through John as well. Like, John is such a a condo for exposition. John and Danny do the books to, like, represent entire locations. And it's impressive, man. It is very impressive, I think. And I think George gets better at it, too, as Danny goes through different places in SO, so I think he actually gets better at it. Let's talk about Tyrion a little bit, because Tyrion is excellent at this book, I think. We already talked about Tyrion. Well, we didn't talk about the best part. When Tyrion is in a battle, remember when Tyrion is in battle and he takes his horned helmet and spears it through a horse's stomach and the intestines fall on his head? What? Excuse me? I think that's the best thing that Tyrion has to offer, is that scene? All the scenes with Tywin and Kevin at the table there in the tent is pretty good, too, I think. Tyrion is, like, one of the greatest characters ever. Let's just put that to rest. Well, he's also the most portable character. He is, but that's because he's so well-written. He is very well-written. And the fact that Jordan R. Martin created this fantastic character that's an outcast of his own family, but also understood, like, one... Like, when he's talking to Jon early on about why he reads books, he's like, well, if you look like me, you've got to be smart, right? Like, the fact that he knows what he looks like, he knows how he's represented in society, so he has to outwit people. He has to outsmart people. But he also knows in the back of his mind that he's a Targaryen, he's a Targaryen. Jesus Christ. There it is! There it is! No, it's not there! It's firm, boy. It's firm! Kevin, that he's a Lannister, and he knows when he gets certain positions in his story that, like, my dad hates me, but I'm also a Lannister, and my dad would hate anything more than to be embarrassed on behalf of himself. So it's like... All doors are bastards in their father's eyes. Yes. Yeah, but he's also still a Lannister, which does open doors, and his father will protect the family name if nothing else. Yeah, later we'll see what happens as Tyrion loses being a Lannister. Yeah. And then... Would you be kidding me? We're here to talk about Game of Thrones! I'm sorry. No, you're right. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Because we haven't been bringing up later stuff at all. At all. Maddie says, listening past 10 minutes of this convo made me realize I remember nothing from the books. Yeah, I think it all... It happens on a reread, because I, like, go through our Instagram chats, like, every time I got it. They can't, but that's a great offer, Alex. Listen. Vienna. Okay. As I was rereading this book, there were so many times it came up that I was like, I forgot this happened in this book. Like, there's so many great moments that I'm just like, holy shit. It's like when we go back to, real quick, just the last thing about Ned, like the Tower of Joy. Yeah. Bam. I don't remember what season of the show that Bran sees that as the Three-Eyed Raven, which I don't know why they change that to Three-Eyed Crow, to Three-Eyed Raven, whatever. But he's in that scene of the Tower of Joy, and you get the whole, you know, like the Battle of Trivans happening, and you even get down to the line of like, so like, so it begins, he's like, no, now it ends. Like that whole conversation, down to a T is there. And I was like, oh my God, this was in book one. Like the entire Tower of Joy mystery was in book one. I mean, can we also talk about how much mystery is in these books? I mean, so much. Well, I think that's what also like, I mean, when you have an epic saga with multiple POVs and so much politics and lore and all that, the thing that keeps people wanting to sift through that and wanting to pay attention to all of that is a mystery. That's correct. If you don't have a mystery, then everyone's gonna be like, oh, floor, whatever. Okay, I guess that's enough. There's enough there to theorycraft and speculate. And then you have years in between books and everyone on the internet is just like, what does this mean? Yes. Although actually, I was, I mean, earlier we were talking about Ned, and I was just thinking about how like, it's Ned seems a little less stupid in the book because that the whole Joffrey is a Lannister first and he's not actually a Baratheon that is so flipping obvious when you see what he looks like. And in a book, like, yes, it's described when he's blonde and you're like, okay, he's blonde. He's a Peter Perkins prince, whatever. But it's like, when you see it, you're like, Ned, Ned, how are you surprised that he is? Yeah, he realizes it. And again, he doesn't know how to play the game of this world. So in his mind, he's like, I'm going to protect them from Robert. I'm going to tell him, I'm going to send them away. I'm going to give them, you know. But then it takes him that long to figure it out. Like in the book, you're like, oh, case piecing it together. But in the show, you're like, you can see it. When he doesn't see Gendry, when he sees Gendry at the Blacksmith, he's just like, hold on. Hold on. He's like, wait a second. Calculating Calculating. Hold on. Wait, hold, wait. And all of the time, it's like the book that John Aaron was reading, and he was like, oh. You know, and he did that really well in the show, though. That's another mystery. He did that well in the show. When he's flipped it through the book and he's just like blonde to pear. They did it well. It's just the fact that it's so obvious. And then he's like black to pear. He's just like, black of hair, black of hair. I don't know what that was. Nah, I don't know either. But I think that was the original narrator of Game of Thrones. I'll get you a Danny chapter. But we talk about mysteries. So we have the mysteries of the others straight from the Polok, which also describes Valyrian steel in the prologue. But really quick, I would really like a version of King of the Hill that's about Joffrey, based on that. But I'll tell you what, yeah. Kind of like Joffrey, but like as Bobby. Bobby is Joffrey. For some reason, I describe this Cartman. It's a prologue, Valyrian steel. Valyrian steel. So we're automatically asking, oh, there's magical sword, or there's a creation of swords. What is this? So we have the mystery of the others, or the white walkers, as Nan calls them. We have the mystery of who killed John Air, which we think is solved. We think might be solved. We're not sure. It's set up where all you really know, unless I'm forgetting something, is that everyone is convinced that it's the Lannisters. Because. When it's outplayed in the Lannisters. Yes. I mean, they're kind of awful and responsible for me. But I mean, okay, but I do love that, like, when Tyrion points out to Katelyn, how dumb do you think, you know a lot about me. The one thing you know about me is that I'm not stupid. You think I'm stupid enough to give him my dagger? Like, come on. And I don't bet because of my family. But, so she doubts it, but on the way to the veil, she's thinking about it. She's like, hold on. I've gone too far. He said he didn't do it. Like, does this make sense? But he's, she's like, but like the other roads way over there, like to go back would take forever. Like, I'm just going to go through this. But like. And then Liza. Go to the veil and figure it out. Poco pops and everything. And you got a little, you got a little sweet, sweet baby veil of air and just like. Also. And then his mom is. They can fly, mommy. Yeah. I want to see the bad man fly. Everyone breaks the cringe. Liza's description is that she smells like soured milk. Because she's still breastfeeding at like they did that really well in the show, which they did great in the show, but that's where aging it up made it even creepier because he was like 14. Now, now also we've talked about traveling. Guys, how ridiculously amazing are the descriptions of the riverlands and of the valley? Hell, yeah. Get into the veil. There's also, it's not just the descriptions. I mean, like, I think once again, it's just like traveling is something that you could easily bore a reader with. It's really easy to bore a reader with like how the geography plays into battle tactics. And George R. R. Martin doesn't make it boring. Because he does it so well in very few words. It's a couple of sentences describing like what the veil of Aaron looks like. And yeah. And like, you don't feel like, oh, I need to go back to the map and be like, so what's the strategy? Like, you get it. The description of the veil. Like trying to get to the veil and like the buddy gate and everything to do with it. Which again. It is very clear to the reader why the phrase are important too when it comes to like. Because they can show the bridge. You have to go through the phrase. I mean, so that's again, credit we're friends do. The show did a fantastic job of adapting. But I mean, again, a show can show you like what this all looks like and a book can't. It has to rely on you. And George describing that to you is great. And just like the whole, just everything that he described, it's, it's so like. One paragraph from Peter Baylisch and a Game of Thrones is the first lords of the veil didn't have much, but they had these mountains and they knew how to use them. And the fortress they built here has never been overcome. Not once in 1000 years. Yeah. Because why is that is like we're good here. Think about it. You're like, you're encased by mountains. You've got a castle up here. Your gates down here. How else do you get to it? The Knights of the veil. Oh my God. It's so good. It's so good. The descriptions of them pulling up. And also, if maybe even better than that, the Riverlands description of Catlin coming home and reminiscing of herself as an adolescence is one of the most beautiful things I've read in fiction. I, I freaking love it. I really do. I mean, it's just, it's incredible, man. I mean, I love this shit. But the Targaryens also flew to Dorn and we're just like, hey, by the way, like I have dragons. Yeah. This is like, I just flew here on a dragon. Dude, I can't wait till we get to Fire and Blood. And we talk about that shit. It's going to be so good. There's so many. We're going to have to talk about the World of Ice and Fire too, aren't we? I'm in. I'm down. We're going to have to. Dude, I'll do this with you guys. Even though it's a literal insight. It's a day of the week. We're going to have to. But yeah. I'm in. How did they lose? They had dragons. You know what, Dairy actually does it. I think Grim Provide does provide details, but Grim does great broad strokes and he lets us as readers fill in the fine details. And we are the life of Westeros. It's partly that. It's also just that he's very good at. Okay. So go with me on this. So like the thing that I always say what that I love about Neil Gaiman is that he'll tell you like one sentence about a character or about a person and you have an image of who they are based on this one sentence. And he does it through like zeroing in and that key detail is so illustrative of what they are like that you really, that's all you need. And so George R. R. Barton similarly is really good at zeroing in on these key details. Just these touch points that those are all you need to piece the rest of this together. Yes. And it feels lived in and it feels real. Like you can tell George lives in this world in this head. And I don't know how much like. Well, maybe we should wake them up and you can stop living it and start writing it. You know what, and maybe this is cheesy, but he definitely does have issues with letting go of characters. Like he's talked about how emotional he gets killing off characters and how he he doesn't actually look. Yeah, exactly. Like we know what he does, but he says it really legitimately takes a lot out of him when he writes those chapters. I think it was the red wedding. He said that he took him months. I mean, in essence, though, I mean, I guess if you do it right, I mean, every character is like a fragment of yourself as an author. And so then you are killing a piece of yourself every time you kill a character. So if you're doing it right, that should be painful. And Girm strikes me as a guy who is very down to earth. Like the dude, he got a bazillion dollars and the first thing he did was build a train track and a moat. You know what I mean? Like this is a guy who does live in these worlds. And I mean, Kobe Bryant built a volcano. I don't think that makes them down to earth. Rip Kobe, Rip Kobe. I didn't have Girm out living Kobe on my bingo card. Is that morbid? That's morbid. I low key forgot Kobe Bryant was dead because that seems so unreal to me. That's why I won't take a helicopter ride. Everyone keeps telling me to take a helicopter ride. The main reason I won't take a helicopter ride is because that's not a thing that is a thing in my life that I ever had to make a decision on. I'm going to drink and y'all are talking about Kobe and a helicopter ride. Rip Kobe. He was a brat. It's not like on a day-to-day basis where I'm like, well, I'm just refusing so many helicopter rides because... Matt said, he's great at branding and the world building you can do with that. Yes, I agree. He's great at writing history and fantasy. The only person I've ever seen come close to history and fantasy. I think Robert Jordan gets pretty close and I also think Stephen Erickson does a very phenomenal job. Robyn Hobbs? Of history, no. I actually don't think Robyn Hobbs does a very... And that doesn't do a very good job. She doesn't highlight it. Do you know what I mean? Tell what? History. I guess I was thinking in terms of like having houses with sigils that are recognizable and recognizable political connections that just exist. Piebalds. Piebalds is a good example of that for Robyn Hobbs. I don't think I know the thousand-year history of Bucky. Well, no one's published it. Oh, you're fair. I mean, hey, listen. I'm a Robyn Hobbs stan at this point. I have her tatted on my back, but I don't really... Just her face? Yeah, it's just Robyn Hobbs. That's a choice. Doing planting and shit. I don't know. We know you're a fake Game of Thrones fan. You're just a Hobbs stan. I am a Hobbs fan. I do have my realm of overwhelming books are above my Game of Thrones books, just saying. I think it's because then the Game of Thrones will be in frame. I mean, one thing that these two both do is sell me on their characters. And Alex, I'm actually kind of curious because again, we and you kind of came from the same lineage of... Starting with the Song of Ice Fire and Branching. Coming back to this, are you impressed by Girm's character work? Because the thing that's jogged my memory is when I make top five lists in my head, I seem to leave out Girm's characters and now going back to a Game of Thrones, I'm like, oh, like Tyrion legitimately is one of the best characters in fiction. Well, I don't... So since the question was directed at me, Leanna... Well, I want to hear Leanna too, but yeah. I was just choosing as a female to ignore the fact that once again, females are being cut out conversation videos, leaning in. Well, first of all... The Tyrion. Tyrion. Once again, hammering in the fact that you're a fake fan. Forgetting about Girm's characters. So I said it before, coming back to this book as terrible as they are to each other in text, it's comforting to come back to this and recognize all these things that are happening and pick up on things that I've either mixed up between the show and the books or just that I forgot. And especially with the characters, Tyrion is a great character. One of the best in fantasy, or he's just so interesting. He's so smart and witty without trying to just be outward comedic. He's incredibly intelligent and knows his shortcomings and knows how to overcome them. He's a great character. There's so many great characters in these books and they all fit the role that they're supposed to. Incredibly well. Sansa's a really well-written character. She's meant to be annoying in the sense that because she's an immature child, whereas some other characters lift, I don't like. I understand that she's supposed to be an immature child, but it bothers me the way that she's written. Sansa is irritating, but I can also... Can you make references that I understand, Alan, since it's really rude? I can also... Stop it. I can sit back and understand why she is the way that she is and then also feel bad for her. So I think he's really... That's honestly why these books are so interesting because there's a lot of action in the game of Thrones. There's not. In general. And actually... The series does not have a lot of action, which is what the show devolves into. Well, speaking of action, the other kind of action also isn't actually that much. As much as people like to make... So all of the sex that's in... Yeah. If there isn't... Like it's described the way that a feast is described. We're like, it is occurring. Here are the pieces that are involved. This is how they feel about it. Let's move on. It's not like a sex scene. First of all, Gary points out, I said shortcomings and no one thought it was funny. So please clap. Anyway... So the whole point about the sex appeal and stuff of the show, that's an HBO Oh, stop. That's an HBO thing. If you watch any HBO show, the first season or two is nothing but tits. And then it goes as the season... Hey, there's some wieners. There are. As the season... Odor. Stop. We know. We saw... But I mean people do talk about the books having it. And like it is like... When people... Oh, there's so much like sexual violence and whatever. It's not a focus. It's not... Even then when it does occur, it's described again like the way that a feast would be. It's kind of like... It has occurred. This is what happened. It's the same thing. So like Girm does battles the same way too. Because like when you get to later books, it's kind of like the thing happened, let's move on. Like spoiler for later books, Hard Home, you don't even see it. Correct. Right? Correct. The show did a great thing. Of course, it's a big spectacle. And I appreciated it was super cool to see it on screen. But like Hard Home wasn't like a thing that happens in the books. Like it's literally just like that happened and now we're here. The show like spends an entire episode. Like here's what happened in Hard Home because that's a spectacle thing, right? Like you want to see these big battles and Lord of the Rings kind of does it in a way too where a lot of these battles like it happens and you move on because it's not the focus of the text. So like A Song of Ice and Fire is a lot more about the political maneuverings and the conversation. All out. Yeah. And all the human on human like mental things that are happening and not just the battle. Like it's not a John Gwyn novel where John Gwyn focuses. Well, I mean, it's about the battle in terms of what the cost of the battle is. Yes. But he doesn't like spend 100 pages going through an actual battle. Right. So I mean it's. But so going back to characters, Jimmy, can I answer your question? Yeah, of course. Come on. No. Come on now. It was directed at me. Please be quiet. I am of course kidding. I am of course kidding. Was it your question, Alex? You don't get to silence me. Only Jimmy can silence me. Alex, you're on the bottom row, bro. Yeah, child. Be quiet. So I'm at the kids table. But I think for characters. So OK, I think it's like on a spectrum in terms of how close the narration is to the character. And I think Wes compared to Tolkien. George R. R. Martin is a much closer to the character. But as compared to a lot of modern writers, he's not that close. It feels more arms length. And so I feel like when we think about character, character writers, even I mean, Joe Abercrombie is not that much later than. But he still is closer in terms of like really being in this character's head and even Robin Hobb much more in their head. And so like when you look at what they're like, what you know about them, they are great characters. They are fleshed out. But you as a reader never feel that close to them. And I think that's why that's not, doesn't make those lists. You don't think of it as like a character book. Yeah. I also think people think it's the easy way out. You know what I mean? Like I think. I don't know what you mean. Well, I think that as readers, we like to attach to things that we feel are very personal to ourselves. And so many people have read a song about it. We almost all know Tyrion's a great character, right? We all know Cersei is a great character. You're not allowed to say Tyrion's your favorite because that's like, oh, you're so basic. Yeah, yeah. Who she is. And whether we want to admit or not, that is something that we do. I mean, that is just facts. Everyone's a little bit of a hipster. I absolutely gravitate towards side characters in books. I really do. Because I'm like. Usually they get the chance to be interesting because they don't have to move the plot forward. They just get to like do their own thing. And we get to make up headcannon about them. You know, I mean, I think that that's like, honestly, I'm glad that Ben Denny pointed out Dona Noi because Dona Noi is a big character in the books. And Dona Noi is so fun because we don't know his past as much as, say, John or even Samwell Tarly, right? Which got Samwell such a good character in the books. I can't wait to get a little bit later down in the series so we can talk about him. I would just quickly like to say that Glenn Moranghi is better if I carry on. Listen, I'm starting with this. OK, next live stream, I'll have something else. OK. Well, will you jump on the trend and have Alex? Alex, why don't you drive up here and I'll give you some and we'll do it from the same location and we'll chat with Leanna. That would be sweet. That would be sweet. Why am I being excluded again? Because we're in LA. I just wanted to be asked. I'm not driving to LA. I just wanted to be asked. I can drive to LA. I would say no, but I wanted to be asked. Me and Alex only live like an hour from each other. Exactly. If we want to talk about like how well Girm does traveling, it would be a much longer trip for me to drive across country to Los Angeles. And it will probably be on fire by the time I get there. But it's always OK. Because this is where the Targaryens live. They basically live in. Maddie said, is there game there's Game of Thrones? Yes, they released actually two different releases. The last one very cleverly. They released a Six Kingdoms edition since the North succeeded from the Union. He means succeeded. I was going to say, but I didn't want to point it out. But I don't know like succeeded. This mean girl is showing. I was going to. Let's stop. We got to get back to the books. English languages and my thing. Yes, there are. Westerosi. You see the common tongue. OK, I have to. That is my pet pee. Fly Leanna in to this. Let's book it. We're all just going to cram together on one couch and try to do a live. First of all, that would be hilarious and awesome. But genius is now putting the bill for her plane ticket. So. Also, Lawson Discovery said, good point about side characters. I think that's why Alex's favorite characters lift. Listen. Ah, Christian, just because you stop making YouTube videos does not mean you get to come in here and start trouble. OK. Hey, Christian has nothing to lose at this point. He says it's terrible. It's terrible. It's terrible. Lift is a phenomenon. I hate lift. Lift is terrible. I mean, basically having heard Alex rant about lift and my predisposition to hate anything Sanderson related, I'm on it's still like it's sadly one of my most viewed videos. So a book I didn't know how that feels. And the character I don't like is one of my most viewed videos. And as recently as two days ago, I got a comment saying I just don't understand how complex lift is. And I wanted to hit myself. Well, Alex, I still get comments on my way of King videos that say that they don't understand why I don't like fake swearing in books. They go to the 19-year-old. No, Christian, you can come out of the hole. It's OK. It's OK. Christian's a good lad. To Hannah's point, why is everyone drinking whiskey when the books, they all drink wine? The Arbor Gold. I don't know what to tell you. I don't have a good one for that. My wife is drinking wine. Did they do a game of Drone's Wine release? They did. They had wine and beer. Yeah. I don't have any. I think I have one wine bottle. I have all the beers. Amanda. Amanda hitting with the five spot. This is towards Leanna's flight. Thank you very much. Amanda is the goat. Amanda is one of my patrons, and she is phenomenal. She's great. You stop flexing your patrons on Leanna's channel. I don't know. It sounds like she's on my team now. Amanda's phenomenal. Amanda is actually one of the people that I know that are going to the Game of Thrones Convention, by the way, that is in February and Las Vegas, if you're interested. How much are they paying you to plug that? Because you can take that money and fund my flight. No, I'm a Mark and I'm going just to enjoy. If anyone is going, yeah, I'm going. If anyone is going to be in Vegas. You have to ask Alex. When is this? February 18th through the 20th. It will be the official. It's the first official Game of Thrones Convention season eight, and I think they're going to play the House of the Dragon trailer. And there's a rumor. So is this entirely like the show? Or is it like? It is the show because it's HBO. But they are going to have. Is Gurm going to be there and answer questions about why he's not writing the book? That's the rumor is that girl might be there. That's the rumor. So I will be there if you guys want to say hi. I will be there. So Ben, the knee is going to be there. You all need to think up and film something. And it's Sir Matt's bachelor party. Sick. I will be there in spirit because I have young children that I probably can't leave for three days to go to Vegas. By Game of Thrones ages, they're like 30. I'd be in the grave then, if that was the case. Leanna, you're close. You look excellent for the undead. I can leave them in charge of the cake them, right? Is that how we work things down? My three-year-old can just run the household. I think that is. I think she's the heir to the throne. I mean, as long as your child is a male, if it's a girl, sorry. I'm my son's only one, so. You know what we haven't really talked about? We haven't talked about the heir of the only Stark left in Winterfell by the end of this book. Not the only actually, there's Rickon, but screw Rickon. I was about to say, you're going to say he's Rickon because he's like three and no one cares. No, Rickon doesn't even matter. I think Gurm literally forgot he used this. Shaggy dog. Shaggy dog. No one cares. Literally no one cares about Rickon. Now, what about Bran, though? What about Bran? Bran the Broke. I? No one has a better story than Bran the Broke. We're not talking about the ending of season eight. He's certainly in a dinklage. I honestly really like the Bran chapters here. They're more interesting than the show. Oh, for sure. Just to be clear, they are more interesting than the show. I think it's interesting. The thing that's interesting about the Bran chapters is that Gurm says they're the hardest to write because he didn't know how to get into a. He said he didn't remember what it was to be seven or eight years old again as a boy. I thought he was like 115 or any of these books. Poor George in his little conductor hat. He's a good lad. Why am I getting I get bullied in my own discord? I totally was. In the song of my fire show. They're just giving back as good as you give. What did I give? I have been nothing but pleasant. This is my last poor as we talk about the three eyed raven. Okay, so Bran. Why do you get to decide the last thing we talk about? No, no, no. I said last poor. Poor. Because Leanna. I would never do that to you, Leanna. Come on now. Come on now. You would just entirely exclude me from a line of questioning. That's all. Because he's a Barathean at heart, but it's Hargarian in public. Oh, dude. When Robert punches Turkey. Are you going to smack me and tell him and then when I tell you I wear a badge of honor, he'll say as well where it is silenced, or I'll honor you again. Or I'll honor you again. Listen, I am not about abuse. Line. Line. First of all, Jimmy is good at plastic abuse. But line for line. Book to screen. Yeah, he literally does that. The fact that he smacks her and says I'll honor you again. Honestly though, like credit where it's due, Mark Atty is such a good Robert, because he makes that character still quite likable and also believably like a drunk fat ass who's like past his prime. I would kill for a Robert's Rebellion TV show. I would kill for that. Oh, yes. Ben Denny, do you like my shirt? This is a Ben Denny official Robert Barathean shirt. This is actually there. Are you getting paid for these plugs? No, I love Ben Denny. I would just like to say that that looks like a Christmas shirt and that looks like a really sort of. Every day's Christmas when you're a GERM fan because we get so many but oh wait. Looks like a very impotent reindeer. I feel like there's some weird back, back deal. Hush child. No, dude. Ben Denny. So actually, I mean, to be honest with you, I found the Ben Denny in season eight and they were the only podcast and they were big at the time. Like, and they're still big. They have thousands of downloads, but I think and then they can confirm. I think they had a million downloads at during season eight. Dude, are you here to plug Ben Denny? Dude, they're legitimately like two of my best friends. How much is he paying you? Dude, I love Matt Nez. They're good dudes, man. A fun fact. First episode ever with chatting with nuts was with Sir Matt. Now he's plugging it in the panel. Don't be sad. He's plugging it in the heart of it. Patriot was in the general description. The more I talk about it, the harder he plugs it. I love this guy. What are we going to do with this? Yeah. 1.8 million during season eight. It's crazy. Dude, do I have to drive to Maryland right now? I would love if you drove here. I would love if you drove here. Only you're invited, Alex. Leanna, you can come on a VWI. It's 10 minutes for me. I shouldn't say that I'm doxing myself. VWI is 10 minutes for me. You can fly in anytime. Oh, I did. I was like, is that the name of the airport? I was like, what is that? It is, in fact, the name of the airport. It's a very nice airport. It's cute that you think I know the name of your local airport. Wow. Crab cakes fall in Barathean loyalists. That's what Maryland's all about. Do you hear the West Coast elitism out here? I'm just saying, I think it's reasonable to think that people know what LAX is, but not whatever the string of letters you just gave me was. Everyone knows LAX. It's still evolving into chatting with us. I feel like it's still evolving. I feel like we're learning a lot about Leanna. The more she drinks, the more West Coast elite she becomes. She's going to say brah and Rick. Honestly, I have a very Tyrion Lancer attitude about living in LA. Like, I hate living in LA, but I wear it like armor. But no one else can talk bad about it. Oh, they can talk bad about it, but I also get to lord it over people because I know even though I hated, other people are envious of it for some reason. So great. That's the Lancer in there. That's who a game of thrones. I love that we've been talking for two hours and derailed 18 different times. So who have we legitimately not talked about? Graham was the last one, I think. Jamie. We haven't talked about him yet, which is disappointing. Yeah, it is disappointing. So we don't get a lot of him. We don't get a lot. But what we do get of him, you kind of understand that he's kind of a dick. Like he shows a child. He does try to kill a child. And he's also a child out of the window. He's deemed a title that he never gets again. And do you guys know what that is? So what did you say? He gets deemed a title that never happens again. No. The Warden of the West. But that was like in passing, though. He's not actually given that title. Well, no, he is. He's called the Warden of the West. And Girm dropped. Well, this is interesting. Because I thought they said that like as he would be. And John Aaron was. So this is the interesting thing about the Wardens. And this is how they set up Jamie to become the. John Aaron is called the Warden of the East. And Jamie is called the Warden of the West. When John Aaron dies, Robert Baratheon says, I'm giving it to Jamie. And Ned says, no, you can't do that. It's too much power for the landscape. What am I supposed to do? And it's because he's in debt. The crown is in debt to the Lannisters. So it's a very it's actually really interesting. But Girm actually abandoned the Warden title after. Let me stop. I don't like this whole Ben and the Jimmy bromance is happening. This is my voice, man. It's my voice. But I mean, to their point, we have not talked about the hound. And I was actually like earlier when we were talking about Sansa about how I mean, I do appreciate from early on the hound is. Like, while Littlefinger is speaking and various are speaking real, but mainly Littlefinger speaking real truth to Ned, the hound is speaking real truth to Sansa. Jim, wow. I almost got to you on a new job. Chris, book is cultured. Congrats on your new job. I'm sorry, Leanna. Please carry on. Don't know what just happened. Just ignore me. I'm an idiot. But yeah. So the hound discuss. The hound luckily did not have some of the cringe worthy lines that they gave him in the show. Well, that comes late. He has a very key moment, though, when he kneels in front of Sansa. He kneels and he wipes off her bloody lip. Yeah. From was it was it blout, what, blunt or blout? I can't remember. The knight that does smack Sansa twice across the face. Boom, boom, boom. Joffrey can't even do that. Is that not Mary and Trent? Is it? Yeah, you might be right. I might be complaining the show with the book, but it's Mary and Trent in the show. I think you're right, actually. No, I think you're right. Trent's also the one that shows up to kill Sirio. Well, kill Sirio, because who knows in the books, but when Boris Blunt, that sounds made up. Okay, that sounds like two on the nose. It's alliteration, so I believe it. I actually believe it because it's alliteration and girmal. So the change is to Mary and Trent for the show. Okay, that's fine, because no one knows who. I don't think Blunt even exists in the show. But no, the hound's great. And we also get the great moment when Tyrion slaps the shit out of Joffrey. Every one of us were like, he's going to remember that. He's like, I hope he does. Yeah, I did. That's the moment you fall in love with Tyrion and then from there on out, you're like, yeah, he's my dude. I don't care what he does. I think there's a very significant connection between Sans and the hound. And I think it begins in this book because if you notice, hound doesn't want to be a knight. He doesn't abide by any. And he calls him Sir. And she calls him Sir. Who said because he does the courtesy of actually telling her the truth. And he kneels before her. He doesn't do any of the... Okay, the truth is a bigger deal than kneeling. Well, no, no, I'm saying all of this. Because he pushes back so hard on being a knight and being called the Sir, but then still acts like a knight in that moment. And then also tells her something that he doesn't tell anybody about how the mountain burned his face. And then he's just like, oh, by the way, if you ever tell anybody, I'll literally end your life. Yeah, it's a moment of vulnerability that you don't expect to see from that character, especially what we see in the yard at Winterfell. Man, the hound is such a good character. Goddamn. What a good character. Maybe he was cast by... Making you grow up real quick. Yeah, you either grow up or you die. Is that what I'm saying, guys? I think if it doesn't, it should, right? That was what she said to Ned. You either grow up or you die, bro. Also, one thing I did want to bring up, and maybe I'd like to hear all of your favorite moments, but my favorite moment from this entire book... Maybe he'd like to hear it. He's not sure. You got to watch your words, man. These spiders around here. Barristan Selmy throwing his sword at the feet and saying, put it with the rest of them. And Barristan Selmy threw a... I believe it's actually in a Danny chapter. It is told. Maybe, you know, I know what it was. It was Sora... Sora, the guy who came in for her. Commander Mormont from The Night's Watch says that Barristan killed two men unarmed while walking out of the Red Keep. How cool is that? Because Barristan's a badass. Barristan is the greatest. But I mean, I feel like the scene. Why? It's such a problem in the show when he dies in a hallway full of doofuses wearing gold masks. But that's the... He gets, you know, a d-cloak or whatever and he throws his sword. I mean, you really... Even though he's not a POV character, George R. R. Martin has done enough to like make you understand what's at stake, make you understand what the position of this person is and how they are regarded, how they regard themselves. So even though they are not the POV, you feel his pain and you feel it keenly. Yeah. And Jamie respects him, which goes a long way because, obviously, we tell that Jamie plays by his own rules and he respects Barristan. And so does Ned. Ned actually talks about Barristan. Everybody does. Yeah. There's one of those people that like, when he's in the room, it's like, you know that he's the guy that like... He's legit. Like, you can't really question anything about him. And he said, without a sword, I'm better than five of you right now. And they don't move on him. And they're just like... Because they believe it. Like, they're like, is this guy punking me out right now? He has great hair and he's punking. He has great hair in West Coast. It's not worth it. I mean, the fact that then Mormont talks about, oh, apparently he killed two guys and now he's missing, it's like... He's like Jason Voorhees in Westeros. Like, you're like, what is Barristan doing? And then we have Barrick Dondarian running around serving out the King's Justice delivered by Ned. Oh, that's such a good scene. Also, really cool moment with Ned on the throne. The local... He's sitting on the chair. When he's sitting on the chair and a really cool thing happens, one of the townspeople do not recognize him. And they think he's Robert. And the reason why that's interesting is because false identity is a big theme in a song of ice and fire. And this proves that those things can be viable. Like, some of the theories that we have about false identity absolutely can be valid because we have people coming out from the outskirts... We'll say the suburbs or farms outside of the... I mean, you don't have Twitter. Yes, you don't have Twitter, right? They're not posting selfies every day. So these people are coming in and they don't even know what the King looks like. Well, why would they? They've never seen them. So maybe... Maybe they have this Facebook page and they're like, oh, there's the King. All right, that's what it looks like. Yeah, I mean, maybe Corn Half-Hand is Arthur Dane. I'm just saying. So it's... Maybe. We'll find out in a book, too. We'll find out. Maybe. Brand Three Chapter. What's the Brand Three Chapter, Ben-Deney? Oh, Jimmy's a fake fan. He doesn't immediately know. Brand Three, hold on. Song of... Nope, nope. I'm with your friends. I'm going to... Everybody be quiet, please. I'll be right back. Okay. Yes, you're just trying to escape the fact that you don't know what Brand Three is and you're like, oh, this is awkward. Listen, I fully credit everybody that has studied this text more than I. Brand Three, the dream. Okay, so when he's falling, he never falls. Oh, when he starts to fly. Yep. I know that. Because I remember that happening. Let's see. There's a lot in the stream, though. Oh, my God. Does he really... Does he foreshadow zombie mountain? Are you shitting me right now? Is that what's happening? Is that what we're getting at? Bullet Shroud Eye is larger mountain? Yeah, that's definitely zombie mountain because he's going to come back with... Zombie mountain. What else are you going to call him? I mean, I don't know what you're talking about, but it's still funny. Clegane Bowl. Let's go. The show was so dumb, first of all. Anyway, it'll be better in the books, but that's wild. Well, the books won't even have a Clegane Bowl. Why not? Why would they? What do you mean? Okay, so future spoilers for the books, absolutely the hounds coming back. Yeah, but I mean, like having this like random ass final showdown thing in the middle of the apocalypse. No. Okay. It's not going to happen. It's not going to happen like the show. The straight-up D&D patrolling the Osama Vice of Fire would read it and was just like, what should we do? That's why it's this, though. Clegane Bowl, no. Let's have them fight on the stairs because why not? And then fall in the fire. It's not going to happen that way, but it's definitely going to happen. In some former fashion, absolutely Clegane Bowl is going to be a thing. Did we figure out what brand three was, by the way? Red Eyes, The Mountain in brand three, which is like super early in the book. Wait, what? He has a dream. Let me see. What's the exact text? Jimmy's mind has been blown. I mean, I didn't know this. I forgot about it, too, and I just fucking read the book. It's definitely going to happen for real. Yeah. First of all, anybody just joining this, whatever the show told you, there may be plot points that happen. Grom's going to do it way better if he ever actually writes the books. It's going to be way better than the show did it. Okay, just first of all, because the show makes no goddamn sense. But let me see what this does. Cal Drogozen is probably my favorite, very emotional chapter. Yeah, Cal Drogozen is very emotional grant. Drogozen is great. Drogozen is phenomenal, dude. He's so good. Another good casting. Just to make that character not be at all, to be like a two-dimensional character. He's a good character. Bran vs. Rika. But let's just forget in the book how creepy it is for a second, because it's real sus. It's his first crowdream. If you remember that Danny's 13 in the books, and I posted, I put it in my Discord. I don't know if I put it in Instagram, to you guys. There's a scene right after the whole heart eating when she's pregnant, and she like bathes in the lake, and then Drogo comes up and she's like talking about his manhood, and I'm just like, 13, 13, and he, sorry. Jurits even says he picks her up as if she was a child, and I'm like, bro, she is. Yeah, you said that, and I said, yep. So that's a little weird. Man, this Bran thinks crazy. Bran 3, though, is when the three-eyed crow tells Bran that he must choose fly or die. So that immediately sparks the whole like you're going to be a three-eyed crow, you're eventually going to fly, which totally doesn't pay off in the show because the showrunners are morons, and they forgot. What are you trying about? It totally pays off. He becomes king. Yeah. When in season eight, episode three, he just fucks off in a nowhere land and never comes back. Yeah, that was great. I don't see this exact thing, but I'm sure Ben the Knee knows, and they could tell us exactly what he's talking about, but I don't remember the exact thing that he was talking about because there's a ton of foreshadowing. Well, I mean, that's almost the entire purpose of a lot of what Bran does. Right. He doesn't have a whole lot going on, but what's going on with him is like peeks into the future. Yeah, and Bran has a lot of dreams about being a knight and riding a horse, and one of the best scenes in this entire book, and I think it's whenever you start to root for Tyrion a little bit more than just wondering what's up with him, is whenever he gives Bran the saddle and Rob treats him like shit, and Rob even knows he did it, Rob kind of like said, well, actually you can stay here, Tyrion, and Tyrion said, I know when I'm not welcome, I'll stay at the inn, and then that's when he gets captured by Catlin. Yeah. Which makes you sure. Thanks, Mom. Yeah, thanks, Mom. Geez. It makes you sure. By the way, here's these stirrups that he can ride in because I know what it's like to be an outcast and treat it like shit, Rob. Yeah, and he's like, spare me your false courtesies, I think is what he says. Because he's like, oh, the hospitality, Winterfellows, whatever he says, it's just like this all. Well said, Alex, well said. I couldn't have said it better to be honest. I've stumbled over a few words myself tonight. Over them both loomed a giant and armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside, but darkness and thick black blood. That is some mountain reincarnate foreshadowing. Jesus. And here's the thing. So I know we give Graham a lot of shit and we talk about him not finishing the books and that's all valid. I think every individual can make a decision on how big of an impact that has, but can we appreciate like just in general? It's so good. Like the experience of the books that we have are so untouchable, at least for me, they're untouchable. It's so good. But they really are like top tier storytelling and he inspired a whole generation. Like Joe Abercrombie is very inspired, right? Like I don't know if we would have the Joe Abercrombie we have today without Joe. We absolutely would not. Or at least, I mean, it would take someone, if not George, then someone like cluing Joe into the effect that fantasy doesn't have to be Tolkien. Yeah, I appreciate your patrons calling me drunk. Okay. Daria has a mind of her. She's also an Alan patron, so we can we can shift it over to him. I just have to blame Alan for all of my scribes. It's so good though for I mean, if we never get a win to winter and or a dream of spring, like these books are fantastic. Everything, I mean, we've been talking for two hours plus already. About one book. Mostly. One book. That's generally how I feel like King Killer too when people are like, well, book three is never happening, so why would I read it? I'm like, because what we do have is phenomenal. Yeah. And we have to, you know, in a lot of ways, the song by some fire and bodies this, but like in life, we don't always have neat endings. We don't always are. We aren't guaranteed anything, right? I feel like we're sitting at the feet of Grandpa and he's giving us some life lessons. You know, but I just think about these things. There was a very talented kid I went to high school with. And funniest guy I've ever met. And he passed away in a car accident last year. And I thought about that in a lot of senses because I've always wanted to see what he would do. Matt was a really good dude. And I could think about how much of a shame it was that we didn't get to see his full potential. But I think of all the things that Matt and I got to do whenever he was around. And I think about like the impact he had on me. And I think about that a lot of the way with the authors that we see, like there's a lot of different authors, not just George. Like Scott Lynch is another one that people bring up a lot of the times. And sure, we can be disappointed. And I think it does matter when we rank them with the greatest of all time. But in a personal situation- Wait, when you say disappointed about it, just not being finished. Yes, not being finished. Yes, I'm sorry. Because there's like three or four more books that he has to write. And that's been forever. And those mean a lot to a lot of people, right? So I think there is a general weight that comes with finishing a series that a lot of people will not be able to forgive. But I do think about the first time I read a storm of swords and my heart pounding. I don't know if I'll ever read a book that does that to me again. Because now I'm two in the know, right? I've read so many books that I kind of see things happening as it comes. But do you remember being a sweet summer child and not thinking Ned would die? I was born cynical, so. Right? Well, fair. I'm pretty dead inside, so. But I think about these things and I think about like when George passes or Robert Jordan passed on, right? And I imagine that was a dark day for like a lot of people, but no one ever questioned what they felt at the end of Eye of the World or Shadow Rising or The Great Hunt or things like that. And I think that we can obviously meme about George and we can joke about George. But at the end of the day, George has provided us, not just us, but the genre was something that changed a lot about what we think about storytelling. And at the end of the day, like a Game of Thrones rereading this with you guys has been excellent, obviously. But it also reminded me of how much of a game changer it was. It is. Like, especially in the time period it was written. Well, I feel like Game of Thrones, like a Song of Vice and Fire has done in the modern day, but we often kind of have to remind ourselves about other older classics. So when you read something like Frankenstein, you're like, well, it seems trite now. Some of the themes you're like, oh, like, or even Dune, you're like, oh, I mean, like I've seen this done. I've seen this done a whole bunch. And then you have to remind yourself, well, it's been done so much because they did it. And so like when you read, when you think of Song of Vice and Fire, like, oh, so like so basic, so cliche. So like obviously a Song of Vice and Fire. We were like, no, but I mean, a Song of Vice and Fire, because like that's literally what spawned everything that came after it. So no credit where it's due. Yeah, I think we have a lot to appreciate. For sure. I think it's pretty excellent. Chris is talking about John, which Chris put in the chat, if that's what you're talking about. I'm looking through literally the chapter summary of brand three from Game of Thrones. I can't believe that I even glossed over some of this, that how much is in this chapter? He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea to the free cities, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to a shy by the shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise. He foreshadowed the ending of Game of Thrones. He foreshadows the three-eyed crow and everything. Like, Brand looks down again. He can see the whole realm and everything in it. Like, he sees everything. It is the goat. He sees the mother complicating a bloodstained knife aboard a ship sailing on the bite, and his father pleading with the king near the trident. He sees Sansa crying herself to sleep and Arya holding secrets in her heart. There is so much in this book that George is like, y'all don't know what's about to happen. And Brand is just a little baby. And also when we're talking about the legacy of an author, I feel like there are so many authors that also try to take the easy way and the quick way where they'll have something like that, you know, where someone has a prophetic dream. And then they never actually pay that off and they don't actually know where that's going. And they're like, I'll figure it out when I get there. Or it's so on the nose. We need, this is why we need the books to finish this because all we have right now is five books with an unfinished series and the show with potentially some of the things that Girm had in mind. Like read this. So this, it's a summary of the chapter, right? But when you look at in the, so this is chapter 17 of book one of A Game of Thrones. Brand is sitting in the Far East. Brand sees dragons staring in the fable shadow lands, which you just mentioned. Brand turns north to the wall where he sees John sleeping alone and growing cold and hard. You see that happening. Then Brand looks beyond the wall. Okay, so we're already beyond the wall. And beyond the curtain of light at the edge of the world into what he calls the heart of winter. There's the others or the white walkers, whatever you want to call them. What he sees there makes them cry. So like totally, like you don't even know like what he's exactly looking at. Is it the white walkers getting like the baby sacrifices? Is it the end of season eight? And that's why he's crying because it's terrible. Is it the white walkers storming Winterfell in terrible lighting? Who knows? The Crow tells Brand that now he knows why he must live because winter is coming. Like book one, 17 chapters in. So like 200 pages probably because I don't remember exactly how short the chapters are. He's already setting up this entirety of like here come the others. All this other shit doesn't even matter because here's like what this, what is to come? Yeah. And like you don't even think about it at the time of reading this. Like imagine reading this upon release before you even, you only have a game of Thrones. You're just like, oh this shit mean. And there's all this speculation. Now like we have hindsight. We have the books to look back on. We have the show. It's so obvious he's talking about. And we see it though. And you're still just like, holy shit. Yeah, the foreshadowing is honestly, it's wild. It's pretty wild. And I like what Chris said and Chatty said, I find George's foreshadowing particularly impressive given he's a self-admitted planter rather than a plotter and being able to take those general foreshadowing. And we know that he had an outline that definitely did a lot of different things. And to be able to repurpose those things is pretty impressive. Pretty impressive. And at the very end of the chapter, he chooses to, because the crew tells me you either fly or you die. And he chooses to fly. And that's when he wakes up. So people say ride or die. Is that also like a fly? Epic moment. So literally though, it's like Bran, that's the moment where he's almost subconsciously giving in to the three-eyed crow. And he doesn't even know that yet. But that's like he's choosing to fly in that moment. Yeah, it's interesting. And he doesn't even understand it yet. I think that Bran and Daenerys both have Paul feels from Dune in a way. Yeah. You know what I mean? There is a desert, so. Yeah, it's true. And she happens to have a, she doesn't know it yet, but she's going to have a nuclear bomb at the end of the books. Also, the end of the books are phenomenal. For the first time in whatever, what is it? Centuries, I think he says. Dragons flew across the sky. The sound difference again. Which again, so because we have to credit the show, right? Y'all remember how every single intro to the show, the theme was always the same, but the credits were different. And like the building of King's Landing and like what was going on was different. Oh my God, I never let anybody skip the opening credits. I was like, they're different. It was super early on in season one, the shadow of the dragon flying over King's Landing. Like so good. Just that little plant. You know, George told me. But also in the show, her hair didn't burn off because that would be ugly. Yeah. That makes sense though, right? Like she, her hair is not fireproof. It should be bald. It is stood in a pyre. Do you guys find it interesting that John burns his hand when he tries to kill the other? Interesting in what way? Because he's supposed to be a Targaryen. Like are we, again, are we going down the, everyone's a Targaryen? Well, I think we all agree that John is at least half Targaryen. Maybe he's not full Targaryen. That's why it is one. Okay. So if we're buying into the R plus L equals J theory, which makes sense, it would make sense that grabbing a literal fire would hurt him because he's only half. But also, also, we know that Viserys is full but a Targaryen and he was still burned. So it might not guarantee. He was not full on. Viserys was not burned. He had melted gold poured over his head. That is not burning. So you think he suffocated? But it's still heat. He literally had melted metal poured over his brain. Like that's not, he wasn't putting the fire. I figured he would have suffocated. That's kind of what I took from that. But I do think, and Chris said, I don't think Targaryen's are just fire proof. Except for Daenerys because she literally stands on fire and comes out fire. Well, that's what I'm saying. Daenerys seems to be special in that regard, right? Well, which is why I almost regarded it as, this is a thing. It kind of like in Hobb, when being witted or having the gifts like this, it doesn't just because you have it maybe in your family and you might get it. It doesn't mean every single person in the family gets it. If you have even like the smallest drop of blood, like this is a thing that happens in this family a lot. That they tend to have this trait, but you may not get it. It might be recessive. So you need to have both, like, you know. Yeah, and Chris brings that. He said also, Dany is in fire proof all the time and death paid for life. So I do want, like, you know, obviously there's some sorcery going on. Well, sure. Because they burn the witch. Yeah. So that's really interesting as well. That Dany kind of let murder go through, you know? But God. She met well. You know, we talk about Ned's tragic death. I mean, come on. Please let him catch you. My moon and stars like you dumbass. That was some wish master stuff, right? Yeah. Like she made a wish and it didn't come out. Like George is very much about the classics. Like he really enjoys. Yes. I mean, the whole series is predicated off of the fact that Prince Charming lost. And that's Rhaegar Targaryen. He lost to the big bully Robert Baratheon. And that's what kick starts Game of Thrones, right? Did he, though? Maybe he floated down where he became Rance. We don't know. But I think we know. I think we know Rhaegar is dead. So Christian's point real quick about the Starks being wargs. Yeah. That's a much bigger thing in the books than in the show. The show kind of abandoned that. But the whole concept of warging in the books plays a much bigger role. It's a really old new brand that's like, that that's a thing within the show. Yeah, it's the old John in book five, though, potentially. I'm saying in the show. The show, it's really just brand warging. No one else really plays into it at all. But yet it's just the wilder in the show, which is much bigger in the books. And it plays a more important role because of the foreshadowing in book one, where John is like, look, you guys are Starks. Your house schedule is the dire wolf. Like you're meant to have these wolves. And then, oh yeah, by the way, like you all have magic powers that you can like work into your wolves, which again, we'll get to it in books to come about Rob. In book three with Arya, yeah. Yeah, there's some moments that if you, if you bind to the whole like warging as a thing with the Starks, like it hits hard. And yes, and Dary has a good point in chat. Arya in particular, though, with her senses borrowed from the cats with the scenes with the cats, with Illyrio having them trained. Or chasing the cats, yeah. Yes. Through Kings Landing. Yes. And also, if you remember, there is a Sir Pounce very, it's an interesting theory. How it's got. Yeah, it's very interesting. I think it gets explained a little bit more in Clash of Kings or maybe it wasn't a Game of Thrones. I can't remember. The cats have an interesting role in Kings Landing. That's cool. Yeah. Arya is definitely, I think, second most magical behind brand. Like she, or... Well, I mean her plot like where it goes since we're clearly not just sticking to Game of Thrones. I mean, like when she goes on... Yeah, we read. It's going to be impossible to not just like talk about future stuff. And also, I mean, we just read the shortest books and we are almost, you know, two and a half hours and we've stuck pretty good, I think, to book one. Can you imagine the details we've forgotten from a Clash of Kings, Storm of Swords, Feast for Growers? Especially... Well, you know, you've forgotten nothing, Jimmy, because you're... No. I'm a fake king. You want to confirm. I hate her. The Pounce is a Targaryen. Exactly. The Pounce is actually a dragon just caught in a cat's body. Common has no idea what's in store. Things just going to burst into a dragon at any moment. Yeah, I mean, have we... Because I know we're at two and a half hours, but have we missed any like really important characters that we want to talk about? We talked about Tyrion. We briefed... So like from like who's in the book the most? We've spoken about most of the Starks, as far as I'm concerned. We've been touched on the first year of Tywin. Seriously. But so Tywin's like not in it that much though. Yeah, Tywin is really... I mean, Cersei also actually like... The existence of her is important, but she doesn't actually do that much. So again, I think in the show, the show did a great job of introducing Tywin and making Charles dance just the most imposing thing ever. Exactly, Gerson. Correct. Cersei was, you know, Lena Heady fully embodies that role in the show. But again, like in the books, you don't... You get a little bit of Cersei. But mostly, Charles dance is Tywin. Yeah. But like you get Cersei in Winterfell. You get a little bit of Cersei in her interactions with Robert. And then her interaction with Ned. And then again with Ned, when she's sitting on the throne... And with Sansel. With Joffrey. Immediately after that. So like you get the whole scene where like Ned thinks that he's got it in the bag. He's taking, you know, the little finger. Have we... Have we not talked about Peter? We did a little bit. I mean, we did it, but we just talked about kind of him in relation to Ned. Okay. So real quick on Cersei though. So like the biggest Cersei moments are Ned's one-on-one with Cersei in the garden when he calls her there. And she's like, why are we meeting here? And he's like, oh, I'm sorry, Robert. Smack you in the face, you dumbass. And then it's just like, was like, please take a bodyguard and like leave because I'm going to tell him everything. She's just like, you have no idea how this world works to you. Like that whole scene is great. And it's almost like verbatim for the show, right? It's great too because even though you're in Ned's POV, you're like, I see the truth here. Why don't you? And then when he marches into the keep and they're sitting there and just they, you know, introduce Joffrey. And she's sitting there like, oh, what is this piece of paper? Like, this means nothing. And he's just like... What are you going to do, bitch? And then the whole little finger like, I told you not to trust me. Like that whole scene was fantastic. So like we get, like that's the most Cersei that we get is like through Robert's eyes, through Ned's eyes. Through Brown's eyes, briefly. Yeah. And I mean, Tywin, you don't get a lot of in general. I mean, you get some pretty key interactions between him and Tyrion. But you immediately know how he feels about Tyrion. And not just how he feels about Tyrion. I mean, I feel like it's a grid because Tywin gets talked about, you know, as being the sort of head of House Lannister. And when you meet him, you're like, no, he really is everything they say about him, where he lives up to the legend. And yes, Charles dance like fully and wholly embodies everything about Tywin Lannister. Like, I don't, that is the perfect casting for that character. He's so good. He's phenomenal, dude. Oh yeah. Charles dance narrating the books would be way better. Just throw that out. That would just be too sexy, wouldn't it? Roy is good. Wait, have you seen Charles dance reading 50 Shades of Grey? Yes, I have. I have. Because he basically sits in the chair that you have behind you. I know. Imagine I'm Tywin Lannister just sitting there reading a Game of Thrones that's sitting right there. Or 50 Shades of Grey. It'd be phenomenal. But so Ben, the niece of Littlefinger. So what else do we need to say about Peter Baelish? I think one of the show. Well, his history with Catlin is already so well developed, even though it's not really info dumped at you. It's just hinted at enough to where you've got a pretty solid idea of what that history is and how that's affected. And they talk about his scar. Yes, so one of the best things about the show before we get into Book Littlefinger, I love the fact that the show beyond, Theon's barely in the book. What are you talking about? Yeah, he's really not. Exactly. And he becomes later important because of veins and reeds. I love the fact that the show really gave you a full POV of Peter Baelish because it really makes you. And Varys. And Varys. Because those two characters, you only see sporadically through other people's eyes. So having their full POVs in the show was fantastic. And I think a great, fantastic change from the book to the show. On the show too, you see Jamie and Cersei a lot more completely from the beginning. But I mean, Baelish, you already know immediately from the go, you're like, what is this guy's game? What is he really after? Also great casting. Perfect. Like, you know he likes Cat. You know he wants Cat. You know he loves Sansa. Like. Because she looks like Cat. I'm a stand-in for Cat. You know. I think the most. If I can't have the mother, I will take the daughter. One of the most telling lines in the book is whenever Varys says that Peter Baelish should be the king of ashes if it meant that he could be king. Yep. And I think the whole idea behind Littlefinger is that it doesn't matter what happens. He'd love. I mean. Unlike Varys who really does kind of want to keep the peace. I mean, I think Varys definitely had like, obviously he's going to, anyone that's going to be in a position. For the realm. Yeah. Anything that's for the realm could result in disaster for somebody. Yeah. Whereas I believe Peter Baelish. He wants his, his goal is the least amount of disaster. Peter Baelish is a vengeful nerd. That is the story. Yes, the letter, sir. I mean, they call Varys the spider, but Littlefinger is a spider. And speaking of Theon in book one, I think Theon is really set up really well in book one because he's such a pompous ass in book one. He's just barely in it. Yeah. He's just great pompous. Once you get past it, like unless I'm completely wrong, like the scene with Bran and them in the woods when, when, you know, Asha and the wildings come up to that, like it's not even in it much after that. Well, he talks back to Lady Stark, whatever they're talking about, how to get through the neck. They're, he's, he's saying, let's just siege it. And they're all just like Theon, shut up. You can't siege the neck, you moron. Yeah. They're like, they're like, by the time he did that, the lannisters would come around back and they, you know, they, you know, but like, because that's the most impactful thing that sticks out to me at Theon is that moment when he pulls the bow and just shoots the wildling and Rob's like, what if you would hit Bran? And he's like, I just saved his life, dude. And he's just like, yeah, but I didn't tell you to use like, where do you get off on trying to be a hero? And he's just like, because I just saved his life. Yeah. It kind of shows that there's a little descent between the Starks and Theon. And then Theon being a captive. Yeah. And I think that was obviously planned out for book two, right? Because Theon gets way more fleshed out as we go into books two and three. Well, so I mean, what it does, it does enough to establish existing tension and doesn't really need to be more than that. Like Theon you get is kind of like, there is some friction, but that's really it. Because they tell you like they put down the rebellion, they set the Iron Islands in their place and then they took him as a war. Honestly, like when I was reading the books, I was just the Iron Islands was one of the things that I found the most fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. You don't know a lot about them either. Other than they rebelled and they got put down. No, but I mean, like when I first read the books, like when we got like everything else felt so, you know, medieval Europe, like whatever. But like the Iron Islands, I was like, oh, this is fascinating. Until you learn more about them and like the Kingsmoot and everything. And then it's really cool that they didn't include the show because it was terrible. So, somebody said it's so Ben Lannis is Sir Alistair Thorne. Alistair Thorne. Alistair Thorne's interest, obviously, he's the antagonist for Tron. I love that casting in the show too. He was such a dick. Yeah. And he's just, I mean, that's who he is, right? And I think one of the reasons why, and it's kind of a commentary on The Night's Watch becoming a joke, is that Sir Alistair Thorne, right? He's a knight? Yes, he's one of the last noble people to join. Yes, sir. You have Mormons. You have the Thorns. But then after that, you get some more. You have Bear Island. You've got knights. And then you got this, that doofus Sam that's like, I know, I knew. You mean Guerm, right? Because that was him writing himself in the story. He said, yeah. 100%. Of course. I mean, so out, I mean. Again, Sam's casting was also really good because it'd be so easy to make that character be a caricature. Yeah. Oh, he played that really well. I mean, I think the whole, everything about The Night's Watch, I think translated well. Alistair in books. Except for John. Stop. Alistair in book and show was great. He played that, you know. And Mormons is perfect casting. Mormons, great. So that's where like, I appreciated the aging above characters because Mormons and the show, you really get the feel of like, he's been through this. Like he's been there for a while. Yeah. If you think about it. Amon Targaryen. Exactly. He's been there a few decades. If you just take the books, ages at face value, like they're all really young. So it's like, were you all doing this when you were 15? Like you've been veterans for 20 years and now you're 35 when you're an old man. It makes more sense to like a general audience that no, he's like 60. Like that makes more sense of like, oh, he's been around for a while. Like this is ancient history. And Thorn is just like, as much of a dick as he is, he's got a point. Because like The Night's Watch is in shambles. And all they're getting of the worst of the worst. And then you bring this clown that can't even fight. He's an outcast of his own family. They don't want him. So they just send him here to die. And Alistair's like, okay, y'all can protect him if you want. But the second that you need to rely on him to protect you, like that's your ass. So he's like, you totally get where he's coming from. Even though he's a dick. You completely understand that mentality. Because he knows what's at stake. So like you can't help it. Almost simp about it. Which is why again, as a young lad, John being like, well, he can be useful. And this is how and this is what you should do. And here comes the kid Harrington casting hate. I mean, it's great. I love John in the books. I really do. Who wants the kid Harrington hate? I was going to say nothing about it. I think that just as long as I keep saying in the book, John, in the book this scene. Yeah. And I guess I did, Thorn was a Targaryen loyalist, which is interesting because John ultimately. Again, I think I've covered this. That's interesting. You know, and also Mormont, the one of the coolest things about Mormont is that he ties us to Essos with Jorah. Yeah. And he has Ned Stark's, you know, his son was sent off by Ned Stark. And now he has Ned Stark's bastard. So it's not taking. And he's being kind to him. Yeah. And if you think about 1996, you know, and we don't have a clash of kings, right? I'm not six. Are you thinking in your head if you're reading this as it releases, are you thinking, is Jorah really looking out for John or is he not letting him go defend his father because he holds a grudge? I mean, given the conversation he has with. Well, he does give him long call. Which is huge. I mean, we see, you know, we see. I mean, I think it's less to do, well, I mean, humans are infinitely complicated as other characters. So it's not necessarily one motivation, one motivation only governs the decision to make multiple factors. But I think more so. I mean, like when Sam's like, oh, you know, he's grooming you for leadership or whatever. But I think, I mean, that is it. Like he's like, you are useful here. You're useful to me. You're useful here. And I don't want to lose you to some other fight that I know you feel invested in. And there's other reasons for your own self that you shouldn't do this thing. So I'm not being entirely selfish because this is also true. But also you are valuable here to me. So he's kind of the successor. Like he'll take over the night's watch when Mormon falls. Yeah. And also, I mean, Valerian Steel Sword being handed off is a huge deal because in the prologue, the very first thing to come in handy. Yeah. They mentioned Valerian Steel in the prologue and all the boys in the night's watch are like, can we see it? Yeah. People don't even like John. They say, can we see it, dude? It's like when you get the Pokemon card, you know, when you I was thinking more like that when Harry gets the Firebolt. Sure. I mean, yeah. Great. That's phenomenal. Oh, my God. You have a Nimbus 2000. Wait till your rival gets the Nimbus 2001. They're always making new phones, you know, hard to bond. The Littlefinger replica. Oh, yeah. Timmy has that. It's back here. As you can see. It's right. The cat's paw. I'm pointing at it, but. Yeah. It's here. You can see it. It's right in the middle of this. I guess I should have had ice out rather than appropriate. You have ice, too. I have ice, long claw and needle. It's not a dork. I am a dork, bro. Is it like actually legit? Like a long sword, though? Bro, the ice is 20 pounds. And did the two when I hold it, like it's hard. It's hard to hold, man. Where is it? Ellen Payne had a good stroke on him, man. So maybe I won't come over because I don't fancy being beheaded. Well, you know, it's a risky run. Don't don't don't commit treason. Tim's going to get a little bit too uncared or do, but be slick about it. Yes. Yes. It all depends. Oh, man, this is dope. Oh, my God, no. No, we're not going to be real. This is a Harry Potter discussion. So who who have we not talked about? Have we missed any like major characters that we need to talk about? I think we've talked about pretty much. Again, like there are people that become major later on, but for Game of Thrones. I think we touched on pretty much. Talk about Arya that much. We haven't. And we also did. We talked about her being an outcast and about her with the cats and about how she's painted as being this bastard in her own family, just like John. That was like an hour and a half ago. Oh, in the last hour. No, we haven't talked about Arya. Well, we talked to Smidge. You know what they never foreshadow in Game of Thrones is that she's going to kill the Night King. Because who would have known that she would have become an actual ninja with 25 feet ups where she could just leap bounds over whites and white walkers and stab the eyes. And you know what? One thing that is foreshadowed we already know in a third party way is that Arya reminds Ned of Lyanna and in the way that she looks. And then they say that John looks like Arya because he's long in the face just like Arya. It's like a link to a link to say. Well, that's one of the things that bothered me the most about casting even though I thought even though I thought the casting was like very brilliant. Sean Bean has kind of reddish hair and so when they keep talking about how Rob looks like Catlin and John looks like Ned that's not true in the show. Yeah, listen. Stop focusing so much on the casting. The casting is irrelevant to what's happening here. We know you hate Kit Harrington. I like Sean Bean and Richard Matt. He's got a lovely wife. He married his wildling. They're having kids be happy for him. Back to the book. It's set up so early. It has to be a thing, right? What? Liana giving birth to John and being the target. Oh, for sure. Nothing else makes sense there, right? Is there anyone that doesn't think that that's the thing? Well, there actually is. And there is. There is actually another theory that does make some sense. And that is a Shara Dane in Ned had a baby. And we can talk about that. Would you actually buy into that though in Ned actually? If we didn't have the show, if we didn't have the show, if I'm being honest, if we didn't have the show, I would say I would be like a 70, 30, 70 being for RL plus L equals J. When we get to, I think it's a storm of swords, we should go over that theory because it's actually really interesting. Sure, we'll talk about it every live stream. Well, Ned loved the Shara Dane, but he married Catlin out of duty. Yeah. I mean, he says that right off the bat. Yeah. It's fascinating. And he even says it like they learned. Well, there's no reason for him to be secretive about that. Exactly. So again, everything about, because all roads with Ned, everything about Ned, he's honorable, right? True, true. He married Cat out of duty because Brandon was dead. Neither of them really wanted to marry each other. They married, they eventually fell in love over time. He comes home with his basket. He's, by all sense of the words, is the most honorable person in this entire book. Yeah. Series. To a fault. But he has this bastard, but he's never willing to talk to anybody about it. Even Robert. Not even Robert or John. He will not talk to anybody about it. And when he's finally like, look, John, when we meet again, we'll talk about it. Yeah. Of course, they never meet again, right? Because we all know that. But what does Ned think about? Constantly, his sister dying. He always, so that's what the book hammers that point home. Yeah, it's right in your face, doesn't it? He thinks about Liana and the promise me Ned. Promise me Ned. And you get the Tower of Joy. You get the Targaryens guarding that tower where she clearly gave birth in no other context, but it's like it constantly hits home. Like you are protecting this child from Robert and his wrath. Like the only sensible thing is that she and Rhaegar had a child and he is protecting that. That's why he never speaks of the mom. He never speaks of anything beyond. He has a bastard. He's to his grave protective of that child because he knows what's at stake. But then sends him to the wall. Yeah. So, super protection. Maybe that's to keep him safe. Where else? I mean, had he gone to King's Landing, he probably dies. How do you say in Winterfell? No, where is safe in Winterfell? Maybe he goes to war. At least at the wall, he's out of everyone's, you know, thought in mind. But then again, it's like, if he's for sure, the Azor Ahai or he's, you know, R plus L equals J, like, he's at the wall. He's got, oh, so he has to, in less, I'm getting way ahead of myself. Because again, it's foreshadowed in the book one, right? So when we get to book five, we know how that ends. We know what the show did, and then sort of abandon the plot line, but also trying to have the plot line exist, but then like forgetting the plot line. The books clearly set that up as like, here's this thing that's gonna happen. Book five, when we get to it, like we'll talk about it. Like we know where that ends for John. Like that's got to come around at some point. Hopefully in the wins of winner, if and when we ever get it, that pays off, but like, come on. Can I defend myself real quick? From what? Dairy is saying that there's no context for Ned and Ashara having a thing together, and that's not true. Barristan actually thinks about that in, I think, a dance with dragons, and he talks about maybe if he hadn't been a part of the Kingsguard that maybe Ashara wouldn't have looked towards Ned. We also know that after Sir Arthur Dane died, that Ned took the star, took the sword, morning star, backed the dawn of whatever star fell, whatever it is. For sure. And he went and visited Ashara, which Ashara then threw herself off a cliff and killed herself. Yeah. And he also danced with her. After she caught a baby. Yes, who knows. And he also danced with her at the, I believe, the tourney of Heron Hall. I could be wrong about that portion of it, but it is absolutely foreshadowed in a game. It's there. It's per se. Yes. And then on top of that, Barristan's also, he was thinking about it. I believe Arya also remembers hearing a story about it or something like that, and then Meryl Reed talks about it with Bran at one point. So while we never get Ned's thing, You didn't ask her, did they show Forgot About? And you went for real. But I mean, if you're telling me that no, Ned ever said, I love Ashara, that is true, but it is not true to say that there wasn't absolute foreshadowing that Ashara and Ned had a bit of a attraction to each other. That is totally true. It is, it is in the facts. As Dominique says, it's not quite as fleshed out as a series. And to be clear, R plus L equals Shea. I'm not telling you that. If I don't believe that he planted all of that to subvert that when it's like, it's there. And the only reason that there's this much speculation is because it's been so long since the other books have been out that like nothing else makes sense. Because I mean, the very first time you would game of thrones, you're not like, well, R plus L equals J. Because you wouldn't have any idea what you're talking about. Like that's not a thing that would exist in your mind at that point. It seems on the nose now, but that's only because you have knowledge. Like it's not actually on the nose. It's very subtle. Yeah, yeah. And there's definitely like, you know, promise me Ned, like I should have been able to realize that when I read it, right? But I didn't because I was trying to keep up with all the names and the houses and because it's so rich and dense. So like pretend that our R plus L equals J is not a thing. What else even makes sense in that context? Like what else is she saying? Promise me that like you're not going to reveal to everybody. Yeah, yeah, exactly. What else in world in context would even make sense in that? Yeah, for sure. For sure. Whether she like was a Pokemon collector like this. It's very clear R plus L equals J. She plays D&D in her spare time. Like there's only like what else because she had been hiding that he takes to his grave, that he is not willing to speak to anybody. Yeah, it's definitely R plus L equals J. So I'm glad that tonight we could confirm that R plus L equals J. The theory is that's what this is all been building for. Pretty much presented by everyone for like 15 years. We are reconfirming here. Yes. We came up with it tonight. We confirmed it tonight. You heard it here folks. I absolutely caught on the first read. That's impressive. I definitely didn't catch on to it. Also, Catlin Marry's Ned out of duty. She was supposed to marry Brandon. So to think that Ned wouldn't have had, especially after everyone assuming that him and Nishara got it on at the turn of her and all. To think that Ned may not have had his own interest, I think is naive. Also, Catlin loved her and all. Like how many people were at that? Turning of Heron Hall is the catalyst. I mean, it's the catalyst for everything, right? Also, I don't know if everybody knows this, but Guerm is writing a Broadway play for the attorney of Heron Hall, which does not have time for this. Well, that's fine. He's on contract for it. But here's the thing, Leanna. He has time for everything, but the series that he needs to finish. So that's the best rate. But he said he's going to tell us what happened at the turning of Heron Hall. So we will know about the Night of the Laughing Tree. We will know why Rhaegar picked Leanna. Everything. We're going to know. But we're going to know that through a Broadway play. I'll be front row. Hey, look, Joel is in chat. Let's ban him. Because there's a child. I didn't know we were talking about that. That decided to join three hours into the series. I mean, it is three hours anyway. So shall we have some closing thoughts? I'm surprised it took that long to get a troll, to be honest. I think that if there's anything to get out of this three hour stream about a Game of Thrones is the fact that we got a three hour stream about a book that's 30 years old that has been talked about to death and we're still finding things to rant about. And we've had almost 40 people this entire time. And I think it's just, it's all, I mean, it's great. It's one of the best. But who's counting? Me. I mean, I certainly have had a great time at rereading Game of Thrones, and I'm excited to reread the rest of Song of Ice and Fire with you. Lovely lads. That's been amazing. So what are we doing the next one though? Are we shooting for like the end of the next month? Yeah, I think so. Didn't we talk about this? I don't know. I think the end of every month is fine. But so I mean with Thanksgiving being a problem, like, I think I- What do you have against Thanksgiving? I don't think we can do this on Thanksgiving. You just in general have a problem with Thanksgiving? So I mean Thanksgiving is like the last weekend of November, so. But Monday and Tuesday nights at the end of November? I mean, we could do like the 27th or like- I don't think we have to even commit to anything right now, right? No, you do. You do we? Right here, right now. The end of November. Bounce it to the world. That's what we're committing to. Someone said they wanted to see a Song of Ice and Fire adapted in Muppets. There's actually two characters that are named after Muppets in a Song of Ice and Fire, and it's Tullies. There's a Kermit Muppet, and I can't remember the other one. That's because the Tullies are literally Muppets. Elmo. There's Elmo, Kermit, and Oscar Tullie. Those are all the jit names, and Girm confirmed it's because he's a huge fan of the Muppets. So I think it's funny that you suggested that. First week of the following up? No. We will not be talking about the Clash of Pings in a week. I think she means December. I think end of November is fine. K plus V equals G. Kermit plus Piggy. That's what I want to know. I like this. Let's get down this road. So it's been a lovely evening. We got to log off, guys. We'll be in contact with the next one, but everyone start Clash tomorrow. And it's going to be on Alex. It doesn't matter, Jimmy. It's on Alex's channel, officially. Who knows? He said his name first. Okay, I'll do it. So that's we're flying to Alex's house. He has to go to Jimmy's Fire and Blood on his channel. I get Storm of Swords, which is actually the bigger deal, right? Congratulations. You can have it. You can have it. So we'll do it on my channel. Yeah, honestly, we can do them all on your channel. It's fine. Regardless, by the end of this, we're going to finally realize, again, that the wins of winner is still nowhere to be found, even though... Maybe the final live show will be us, in real time. Reading the preview chapters? No, co-writing wins of winter, just how loud or ultradition. We will exhaust every avenue. We will go through all of this. We will read it. Night of the Seven Kingdoms. We will read the Fire and Blood. We will read the World of Ice and Fire. We'll do a podcast for three and a half years and hope that the Winstainer somehow happens between now and then, when Girm is like 79 years old. He's already almost there. Isn't he like 74? How old is he? He is 74. In Game of Thrones years. In Game of Thrones years, he's Walter Frey, ancient demon. Hey, Walter Frey can still get it, so... Apparently, he's not shooting blanks yet. Okay. Which is like low key the grossest thing in the book. We're going to start talking about Walter Frey's sperm count. I think the stream has ended. Well, as I said, it's been lovely reading, lovely chatting. That's definitely the best thing to add on. I'm so glad that that's where we reached that. That's the one character we didn't really talk about in case you knew you were asking who we didn't talk about. We didn't talk about Walter Frey. It took us three hours midnight east coast to bring up Walter Frey's sperm count. But Jimmy, being the hero that he is, decided to bring it up. Yeah, I think we did cover by every inch. And the 11th hour. I'm proud. All right. Well, I mean, it is pretty early here in LA, where I live, you know, but um... Ask Willie Rock over there. Christian did say we can do it on his channel. He does have a ton of subs. He'll just host it. Dude, I'd be down. It's just us. See ya, Chris. All right. So good night, everybody. And we'll see you next time on some channel, on some day, at some time. Check out that community tab, boy. Wow.