 This is the generative commons call on Wednesday, August 25th, 2021. Hank, nice to see you. And brief aside, Hank, are you familiar with the vlogbrothers, John and Hank Green? No, I'm not. So they're one of my heroes in the world. They make countless videos. And now they've got a scishow and a bunch of others are doing science shows they're doing a bunch of other stuff. And they have this, this, this cliche, this routine they do where at the end of every one of their normal old fashioned calls, they say, Hank, I'll see you on Tuesday, or John, I'll see you on Tuesday. Right. And so when I when I greet you, I'm always thinking of John Green saying Hank, I'll see you on Tuesday. Exactly. So, so Stacy is talking about a game show. She is describing that would operate in this future that we're that we're envisioning and Stacy, I'm, I'm and I so what's interesting is that let me work backwards back into your idea. You've, you've heard me use the leaf cutter amp analogy before I think right. I kind of think I know what that is like. So, so if you haven't, I'm surprised because we've been on so many calls together that and I've been I've been bringing this up relatively often but so leaf cutter ants can't actually digest leaves. So why the hell are they up in trees, biting off chunks of leaves dropping them to the ground carrying them into the nest by the bazillions why what is what is going on. What happens is they carry them down into the into the ant nest into the anthill. And they hand them off to a subset of that genus and species of ant that is busy chewing up the leaves not eating them, chewing them up with their spit and then putting them on a fungus. And leaf cutter ants also known as farmer ants, they're one class of farmer ants. There's another class of farmer ants that farms a fids, believe it or not. They defend a fids and then squeeze the a fids who poop a nectar that the ants all eat. It's a very strange relationship. And then, and then they defend the a fids against spider attack beetle attack other animals that like a fence they defend them right because this is their food source. Anyway, back to the back to the ant hill. So in the middle of the anthill is this fungus, which is a mycelial kind of thing that they asked basically put put new leaves on and then, and then, and then they inject the new leaf matter with a little bit of the fungal mold, which grows and then this metabolizes the leaf matter and uses an actor that all the ants eat. In my 23 years of curating this brain thing, I feel like a lone ant at the fungus face. I'm busy like making the fungus bigger and trying to make it nutritious and putting and getting antibiotics and and and and like keep I keep bringing like leaves every day. And I would love, love a to be feeding the fungus alongside a whole bunch of other people. And I don't care if they're using the brain to feed the fungus or kumu or Rome or whatever. I want us to feed the same damned fungus. It's not that it's a uniform fungus, it's a fungus that preserves each of our points of view blah blah blah blah blah very og me kind of infrastructure for the ideas. But then, and that's like the base thought, but who cares fungus. Well, from that fungus to grow a whole variety of other fruiting bodies or organisms that one of which might look like a blog or a podcast. One of which might look like a game show, one of which might look like a book, one of which might look like a movie or or some kind of a game, you know, live action game or whatever. All of which would be connected through to the same fruiting, the same basically nourishing network of ideas, points of view facts elements, etc. And then, as each of these different entities was throwing off more episodes more questions more facts. And these just get woven into the big fungus. Right. And so and so your game show idea feels like a really great example of one of the kinds of things that ought to live on top of and nourishing the big fungus. Yeah, like so, like I see something like take classes project. Let's say there's a video about classes classes project. Now I have a small piece of something that I want to do with children that would be related. That could be a sprout because it happened like a recipe that I make in the morning happens to use five, you know, spinach and cheese that a local farmers market could, you know, put together. That could bring in a business person that wants to locally start boxing it and delivering it that connects the people. But if we can see it as shows in a clear way, not just going on YouTube and looking for something, but to have it organized to have our songs organized in the song library. You know, when I went on, I didn't know who your wife was until yesterday. I had no idea, but she sent out an email to OGM and I like to support people and it was your wife so I went. I'm like, why am I in Jerry's meeting? I should be in hers. Even coming on to like the songs. I've been working with a program where every day and meditate on a song and whatever song that is, that's the song that I do like it's like a physical fitness kind of thing. But, and I've been listening to change for play non stop in the background, and my mood, I definitely see a difference. Wow. You know, so I forgot why I brought that up but. Oh, yeah, go ahead. You should watch. You should join FMXC the flux mindset explorers club which is her mailing list, which is different from OGM it's not chatty like us. But but that way that way you'll stay in touch with what she's doing, you know, etc, etc. Yeah. I would love that because honestly, six years ago, I had that flux mindset, and I made a big decision. So that's really whatever she's doing I do want to get that information. I love that. I love that that's hilarious. And what you one of the things you just said really sticks in my head and also because the artifacts on the surface, whether it's a game show or a podcast, give people structure to look at this big thing and make it manageable, make it accessible, etc. So once they start peeking under the hood, they start seeing that oh crap, this actually leads to the other things and so on your episode on your episode where you do combat on you do look, you do a top organic chef episode where you have recipes, then that you could have a link that says hey, if you'd like to learn about healthy soil and try to make your soil healthy in your backyard. Here's a thread that goes over there, and it's more than just a hey here's some for additional reading it's actually connected through through the root system into that that that set of knowledge and communities and stuff like that. Or if you want to go into business, you know, create a open open a pop up restaurant using this recipe here's how to go do that and here's some resources and people etc. And another thing that's really important about this and I think I have to change the name, even if I call it a show game or something, because it really does sound very frivolous. But we keep talking about how people have to learn a new mindset. And to me, this is a way to train systems thinkers, how to behave like system thinkers, because we're, you know, we're not immune from what we've been socialized to think and do. Right. So again, I'm going to share the link to your show with Hank. Oh Hank Hank already is is, let me copy the link here and share with you again but you're already you already have access to the document. And I'll put it back in our chat so that you can go open if you'd like to. There we go. And there it is. Okay, okay. So, so just to just to show how topical we are being the big fungus is in the generative commons, and as an example of the generative commons and, and relative to the trust that you were referring to Stacy. To feed the fungus requires some acts of trust faith, whatever else because, because likely there will be predators, raiders, bad actors, other sorts of things, and a tiny, a tiny biological footnote. Biologists noticed that the subspecies event that was busy mulching up the leaves and feeding the fungus had like a white powder all over their thorax, and they went and scraped it off and looked at it. It's a bacterium that's like an antibiotic to keep the fungus from getting back you know diseases. So there's so there's a symbiotic relationship between that little bacterium and the ants and the fungus and everything else. And then there's probably many more layers of this kind of thing going on. There's a couple of things, because this whole idea is predicated on people would be doing it because it really is their passion anyway. So for the same reason that people show up to some of these calls, they'd actually be doing that there's a greater hope that they can receive more and that it could add to you know the benefit of the world. And if it didn't, it's the journey, and it's something they would want to do, because it's what they love. Now as far as bad actors. The point is, once you're involved in this when one succeeds we all succeed, because, again, we're building the commons bad actors coming in are going to be shut down by the culture by the society. So that's all I mean, bad actors are not that easily shut down so so the handling bad actors is really really important than a big deal, but it's not impossible but I guess we need examples, I guess we would have to come up with, you know, and I wish we would do more of that I wish we would, you know, have a quote where we take an hour and we say well let's say we were going to do this, where would we start how would we do it what what problems might come up like to do a little bit more role playing, I think might help push us along a little bit. But role playing would be good but I think I think maybe what you're saying is plan making, right, in the sense of Pete Kaminsky says everything is a plan. I think what we need is to turn your starting blueprint into a plan that has sub plans because it's a big idea. And so the big plan is like well here's the here's the big, here's the big broad brush. So let's look at what happens, but then here are small things that mean to happen, which is kind of why, why I asked a little bit earlier like so, so who's the host of this. Let me go back to the naming per second because we can brainstorm names and all that, but it might be cool to call it the show game at the end of the universe. I think that attracts attention something that like like show game translates back to game show in an interesting way it's a clearly an intentional reversal okay good, and something else that says, and it's, you know, cards against humanity is a very funny slightly blue game that's like what do you mean cards against humanity, but boy is that sticky. So you need so and I'm not saying show game at the end of the universe would stick with something like that something that that has that rings a little bell that's like hey this is like this is fun and irreverent but meaningful. It's funny when you ask who should you know, I think of Oz. I think of the way seriously the Wizard of Oz because it's almost like there had to and it parallels with God. It's like they're almost had to be a bigger secret, more powerful entity. Right. And for that being said, people did follow the pied piper. Right, you know when you see a few people going especially if they're key people, the rest will follow. And have you seen the three minute video on the first follower. Oh you're going to really like this. You're going to be in the supermarket though, and standing in line when there's a problem and everybody looking at each other and staring and then finally the first person says, can we get another cashier over here. Other people start speaking up or if it's a different problem you know kid crying. I mean I've, I've seen that for most of my life and usually I have to be the first one which is not fun. So play this video later I think it'll really resonate for you. Thank you. And yeah, Hank any thoughts on what we're saying. I'm just taking some notes for myself about the things that are being said. And at the same time, I'm just thinking that in a lot of the calls. We sort of go around in a spiral and every time things get a little clearer, but still things don't get done. So I like this idea of make a plan. A simple, a simple format or a template. We've the world. I think that's a very serious plan. Stacey's game is a serious plan. Claus's project is a serious plan as Claus is taking it extremely seriously. His template might be fuller than your templates at the moment. But if they have the same template. I mean I'm not sure if the things that are talked about here, and the things that are talked about in building OGM yesterday, and the things that are talked about in free Jerry's brain on Monday, or all aspects of the same thing of the aspects of several things. But once they get on paper, and I think yesterday he suggested a simple Google Docs which every model can can use. Then people can see are we talking about one thing or we're talking about four things that needed an umbrella or or fundamental something like that. So I've written on my list here OGM deliverables and that's maybe to business the other word leave the world. Find the best people for your team that's an absolute service that that you do now for free but you could offer it as a service. In the general comments, Claus is CFS project Stacey's project. I put on the list feed the fungus but I might just be a metaphor for these. And I think there are a few more that I take a lot of notes but I don't have straight at the moment. We sort of said, here's a simple format, not a business canvas like classes using, but, you know, maybe four things to fill out objectives, technology goal, people or something like that. And, you know, it was filled in. I think things would get a lot clearer. And you've, I liked it a lot and you just made me think that maybe we have a new role, a new guild, a new guild that's not a guild of fungus minders who are kind of, you know, underground weaving away at all the things that that are the scaffolding for all these things and then. So all of this ties just beautifully back into one of my complaints for the last 10 years, at least 10 years. Have either of you heard me say that we are an amnesic society. So, so one of the lessons from 23 years of using the brain actually let me stop doing this share screen. Let's flop over to the brain. Let's go to lessons brain. And so I have a thought of course called lessons from my brain, whatever I learned from using the brain, and the most important one to me the biggest lesson for me is that we are an amnesic society. And because I've been feeding a memory for 23 years and very few people are. I have this experience. And in fact, I did a video sometime ago called sorry for the beach ball my computer is like wait a minute you're doing too many things. I did I did a video saying I have a hunch that nobody's having the information curating experience that I'm having. I'm having this very weird rare unusual experience of highly functional memory that lasts as long as my life will last. Yeah, right where it doesn't get worse it just sort of keeps getting better and more interesting. It's not comparable but not collaborative. Right. I can share it out but I, somebody has to send me an email that says hey you're missing this and then I go and I come in here and I edit it was like that's done. And that's why OGM exists partly is to sort of fix this problem, but, but I think part of what weaving the world and the big fungus and all that are about are creating this shared memory. And this shared memory lives in the generative commons it's not owned by anybody. We want to start it we want to create it we want to motivate other people to build their parts of it, including people who have completely different racist idiotic whatever neoliberal points of view. It's my best to match what they think and why they think and whatever in in the medium, but the medium needs to be separate from any individual tool. Yeah. So anyway, I just want to say that that our conversation right now and these calls about the generative commons are the generative commons is a remedy for the global amnesia. And I'm saying all this because when I raise this issue in the past. My hair has been on fire about this for 15 1015 years. Nobody else particularly gives a shit. And then, and then I get into conversations so last week I had a lovely hour was Corey Doctorow, the science fiction author, and we talked about a bunch of stuff that wasn't that but at the end like in the last 10 minutes I'm like oh and by the and I think this is just my own interpretation. I think at the beginning of the conversation it's furrowed brow like interesting but what, and then I hit a couple things and he was like, that's really important. Right. And that's where I get to it's like it's like the moment the coin drops and people because because I've been having this really weird experience curating the fungus. It makes me happy it's durable it actually works I can go back and keep making things better very few people have an experience of curating even a database that just gets better. Right, the Wikipedia seems to just get better so that's one of the few great examples we have on earth. And then, maybe these other things, but everything else we know is a stream flowing past us and, and, and this is another thread that I've been on for a long time is the difference between stocks and flows. So, a blog, a game show anything with episodes, even a web log that has blog posts, tweets all that, those are all flow, and they're all and we're drowning in the info torrent that's another, let me just, let me just go to that. So, we have a thought that says we're drowning in the info torrent. Right. We're drowning an email where everything is everything is flow nothing is stock. This thing is stock. Yeah, my brain and Wikipedia, for example, are my two favorite examples of stock. And there's a curated thing where when you go back to a page it's going to be more or less the same as it was it's not fresh content, but being made better slowly over time. And on Wikipedia where there's fresh content is the current events page or, you know, some new thing gets launched a new movie happens and somebody starts to the page, the new page for that movie. That's where new stuff happens but really Wikipedia is not at all about novelty, not at all. And so, and I'm going to link. I've made, as I do, I've made a link to this call. So here's the generative comments call. I'm linking it to these thoughts so that they're easy to find. Here's amnesic society. There we go. And, and so, for you guys benefit, every one of our generative comments calls is listed here under generative comments calls. And for every call. And some call some of these calls, we didn't here we go. So here's the last last week's generative comments call where we talked about democracy gardens and I talked about I talked about the documentary street gang about Sesame Street. Yeah, which is which I then I then during that conversation I connected it to the documentary about Mr Rogers called won't you be my neighbor, because these two are just really beautiful and they should be viewed together so I want, when somebody finds this one I want them to find this one and vice versa. Etc. Yeah, this is my act of weaving in real time. As we go through our conversations right I'm busy editing like this, and then usually at the end of a good call. I'll have five or six open tabs, and then I'll go harvest those tabs and add them to the, to the brain, I will then download the video from zoom upload the video to post that video link on top of you notice how this links doesn't have a YouTube video yet, but the other ones all. I go back to these, these all have a YouTube video link right, because I systematically post them to YouTube openly and add the link here so somebody could go back and watch the call. Now, and I'm sorry, I just keep riffing on different kinds of things but I'm making a kind of a loop to just warm up the territory. Now, what we're not doing is what he collab was doing a little bit what Max Harper did a little bit, which is take to take the transcript of these calls and, and my zoom account does not generate automatically any transcripts the Thursday calls we're doing still in the collaborative next zoom, and they have the corporate account which does do the order transcript which is great because then we get automatically already a transcript, which we're not doing anything with right now but at least we have it. We can pretty easily generate transcripts here, and then what if the transcript were step what if the timestamps in the transcript connected directly back into the video what if we had a nice way of taking a sentence and connecting it back to the snippet where people excitedly described the thing and you could, you could quickly go to the right place in the in the live event that was then stored properly in the big fungus kind of thing. And so that and then, and then all of which we're seeing right now through this weird little tool called the brain which is proprietary. What does the ogm platform actually look like what does this look like seen through Rome research in a way that's compatible with what's happening here. And then how does that all bubble back to the surface so that it looks like a game show. Right. Is that is that like way too much Stacy or is that like. No, not at all it's just so many other little pieces like back in 2019. When the group I was with was trying to figure out how to get people to actually go through this transcript. I wanted to use the idea of the game show exactly how you said, but it would be who said this. And like some sort of where you where people would be looking because they'd be looking for the clues and searching for the clues, like a trivia contest, trivia contest, I mean to me this has implications for education that that's where I'm really coming from. So the other fruiting body is is learning materials or whatever you want to call it and I am I'm a huge skeptic of ed tech ed, edutainment is a word I hate. It's because try not to hate it so much try to look at the other side of it, because everything has, you know, equal and opposite right. Yeah, exactly. So, yes, and also and but also any of the above are kind of cooptable to come feed the fungus, if we do this right. Right, because because the fungus can be fed from the outside of anything. If I can, if I can watch and if I can watch part of the problem with with infotainment or edutainment or whatever is that most of these things are closed apps with a proprietary attitude toward everything that doesn't offer no links to the inside. So things that you make build do when guests inside are just not connectable to the outside, which just pisses me off. I'm like, like, if you paid money to be educated to build something and then when you stop paying them at month money every month you can't take your data away, and it doesn't become a part of your own big fungus, like makes me mad. I just think that's theft. I agree. That's why I love the idea of the game. We would own it. It's ours. And but the game is also is designed to feed the generative comes that the game's results all go back into this shared asset that needs to be curated with care because because one of my other experiences from watching many of us man mapping and many different tools is that really rapidly it turns into just chaos. There's just info chaos on the ground where you have six different visualizations, none of which is particularly complete, all of which are kind of different and taking a very different approach toward the issue or the thing that that everybody thought they were talking about together, and worse, the tools are not easily connected to each other and we don't slow down the conversation enough to weave those connections and sort of make a collective sense out of what's happening. Instead, we're busy like, okay, next, what's the next thing. If I could just add one more thing. Part of what's different is, we wouldn't just be the creators, we would be the users. We're creating our own thing. And if we were to succeed and have this really great library of all information everything that is a lot of money goes into content marketing, we would be able to accept that money for them to have an airtime. There's nothing, there's nothing wrong with that. Again, it would be going to the Commons, but it would be taking money from the top instead of taking money from the bottom. So, a thought, the show game at the end of the universe, I'll just name it that for a second, could be a template for how to run a show game at the end of the universe. And when I asked who's the host, it could be that the template can be picked up by any host who wants to go do this, but that when they do so if they make any money it has to get pulled into the generative Commons or something like that. Okay, let me. So if we could just like switch thinking like, make your mind blank. It's not so much that there's one host. Everybody's their own host. Right. The central part would be OGM, which feeds all the other hosts. So it's like, you know, it's um. So I think I'm just coming around to your idea because what I just described was anybody could become a host, but but it's, but every participant, and this may just be a semantic difference. For me, every participant in the show game isn't necessarily a host for each episode. There is a host and there are a bunch of participants. So anybody who felt like standing up and saying, Oh, I want to run one of these myself would then become a host, they would then pick up the piece parts and go, Oh, this is how it works. Here are the moving parts which are open source, as long as I'm feeding the comments and as long as if I'm going to try to make any money it gets fed at some, this percentage gets fed back into the generative Commons we're good. Right. That would be cool. The thing is, it doesn't have to be one at a time, and that's a really important feature. It's a lot happening at once. Exactly. Totally. Cupcake Wars. I know you watch a lot of these. I think I watched an episode or two of Cupcake Wars because my nieces were heavily heavily into it a couple years ago. And so we sat with them and watched them. Okay, so at the end of Cupcake Wars. The winners get to tell tell the experts what it is they need and what it is they envision and the experts create what so it's almost like you're giving that the amateur with the passion. And it doesn't mean you have to be an amateur you could have a startup but I'm saying. It's going through going to the people that have already achieved what they want. It's going to the people that if they had, you know, unlimited time to work on their passion, what they'd be doing. It's giving it's really giving them the support so that they can go out and sprout new things and give it give other people support and keep paying it forward. And one last thing. Yeah, no, you don't need to say like 10, 10 things don't worry. You don't need to be programming to overcome. Exactly. Exactly. So using classes project as an example, it would be very interested to go interesting to go around the virtual room and say, how could what you're doing right now. What little piece could you give to that project or could you add on to everybody there, because to me, you should be able to give something right. Yeah, and if we if we started thinking that way. I think we would be a lot like I know sometimes when I've said something. People are conditioned to think, Oh, she wants it her way. No, no, no. It's thinking about how it will work for everyone and it happens in relationships to you know. No, no, no, nothing done. Enjoying this very lots. I enjoyed yesterday's build OGM call a ton. Yeah, it moved my brain forward a lot on how we actually stand up projects and see them because I had I was thinking okay how do we create a bunch of projects and mark down and put them in massive. And we started Mark on Tom took us directly a totally different direction but toward the same kind of thing. And, and Pete was like yep yep we can sort of like do that in the middle. And I'm excited because it, you know, it looks like a bunch of stuff could materialize. And once, and once we start figuring out where to put stuff and how to describe it in a relatively uniform way. But every project plan isn't like a mysterious new thing we have a new document we have to untangle, but rather follows a format that we can understand. Then, people who are interested and have a skill can come in and find their way to help, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, like, then we can start actually building these things up right right now the fungus is mostly, you know, an imaginary thing and I've got a little starter. I don't know if you've ever heard data project of the export of my fungus, but the bigger thing just doesn't doesn't actually even really exist. Although you could say that all the stuff on GitHub and in Wikipedia and all the loose on loosely or unconnected data that's already in the comments that's really useful are in fact, different completely different unconnected species of generative information. And one of the projects of OGM is to go from juicy pocket of nourishing commons goodies to pocket of commons goodies and connect them weave them make them more useful etc. So, so one of the projects I want to do early is to go to the Tom Attlee and the, the wise democracy pattern language and to go to the peer, peer agagy folks and hard wrangle, and say hey, let's weave this into the generative commons in a different way from its current manifestation, and then let's instrument it in a way where it's really easy for people for muggles who are trying to run a better meeting or make a better decision to find and use. And to me that that's, we're rapidly getting into corporate knowledge management when we do that, which is another realm, we should be transforming. Right. So, so Stacy what you said about education completely brings for me, I'm like yep yep yep, we could we could help reinvent education because, because it's you learn a ton from being one of the fungus Right from from being at the fungus face and trying to figure out what is this fit, how does it work, who else can use it, who just used it, how do I put it here, that's absolutely a part of education it's a part of collective sense making. Right, which is what we're trying to do. And that just takes me back to we're an in music society. We've been having trouble making sense of the world because we keep turning up the volume on the info torrent. We get more and more and more and more flood, and we don't have tools to connect it and weave it into something that makes sense to us. And the other language I was using that's not as exciting. I don't know how exciting fungus is but at least as memorable was the big quilt, because for me, a patchwork quilt is another great different metaphor for a beautiful hopefully a beautiful in the end constructed useful artifact made by different people from different patches like in a good patchwork quilt, you know, the individual patches are beautiful but the but the work as a whole is really good. Sadly, while searching for patchwork quilt images on the web, most of the ones I found have not been very beautiful they've been just like function kind of functional and folksy, but but very few really sort of are snapping to that level of beauty. Anyway, that was a little frustration like two weeks ago when I was like okay the big quilt how do I illustrate the big quilt. And I looked and I looked and I looked and I turned over a lot of rocks and I was like, I'm just having a hard time illustrating the big quilt. And then Pete likes the big quilt because it's a human activity that makes a quilt, and the big fungus is, you know, ants together at the fungus face. And I kind of agree with that, but I'm still, and again I'm still searching for naming and metaphors that that will light people's brains on fire so they understand what these different moving parts are. And one of the reasons I love the fungus is that this above ground and below ground thing works for me well where above ground it looks like an apple or a mushroom, a game show or a podcast ball low ground, there's this world there's the there's the rhizomal network, there's the fungus, these are all interlaced, there are nutrients running back and forth. And if per chance this little underground above ground thing is in the estuarial region where there's like a mix of salt water and fresh. Yeah, there you go. There's your quilt. And if per chance this this below ground or rich kind of exchange of nutrients was happening in an estuary where above ground also there's this rich exchange, then we're just like rock him. Right. And then metaphorically we map the components of nature to the components of the communities that are coming in the people who want to play. And then anybody can get a simple taste of it by playing with the things that are above ground. Everybody can enjoy those and do those and participate and watch just watch them. If all they want to do is like watch the series, rockin. But then diving below ground is easily accessible and there are a bunch of people around going. Come on down and play with us, you know at the fungus face. I might not find this interesting, but about a year ago. So, again, always with the mindset of many different shows going on at once. Yeah, I pitched tonight. Do you know Jim White Scarver. I've heard is, yes, I've been on a couple calls with him. Yeah, thank you. I think he was on the team that developed HTML. Well, anyway, so I like him very much but he and I have very different political views. So I went to him with this idea for this would be a show for muggles. And it was sort of like a we the people kind of also was, you know, coming with your best ideas and the idea I came to him was it had to do with. It was citizens would own the post office I can't think of the right words, but I pitched in this whole idea, and he really liked the idea of not have the show I pitched him I said what do you think of this idea, because I wanted to see if completely different political beliefs as I would think it was as good idea the way that I did. He really loved it couldn't find anything wrong with it. Why am I bringing this up. Oh, because this was a way to engage the muggles. And I thought that as creating part of the show, there would be lessons built in because you have to explain what the problem is before you ask the audience to come up with their best solution. And this was a way smaller version of what I'm thinking now and it was just one little arm of something that could happen. But again, I was always thinking how do we create jobs, jobs that are creative jobs. So, I don't want to lose that. And I'm trying to figure out how do people make a living on all different moving parts of this thing without resorting to advertising which basically means skulking around stealing our information pitching a stuff we don't want etc. Which then means okay. So other business models then would be patronage, which is perfectly legit patronage is great. But also being paid for services rendered and and you know, doing useful work with these tools in this environment for the benefit of for the mutual benefit of some entity some organization and the generative Commons. You know, and as long as there's like mutual benefit. I think that works really well but but but rethinking how people make a living is a really important part of this as well. There's just a lot of things all at once a and and it needs to work in a way where it's relatively intuitive to understand. I'm Ambrose Beers in the devil's dictionary his definition of self evident is evident only to oneself. This has to actually sort of be self explanatory, but also, there should be people sort of everywhere, who are in the collaborative frame of mind, who have the intention of the generative Commons, which which is how people used to learn unix back in like, you didn't want to sit down and read the unix manual which you did was you sat down and you turn to the dude, usually the dude next to you in the computer lab. You're like, how do I do this. He was like, okay, here's the, you know, use a question mark which will give you all the commands and then here's how you do the command line for here are the the different options for what the rep command will can do. And then suddenly you're a middling rep expert and you can teach the next person. So we just need to do that that works that works just fine social learning learning. Most learning is social. The best, I think it's how I contextual learning social learning. When there's a mission in mind which is which we call project based learning but then what we make kids do is pick a fake project. Like, oh, today you're going to do ants even though the kids not like not that interested in ants but now you're now you're doing project based learning. And to me it's like, figure out what the kids actually curious about. If it's witchcraft okay go crazy. If it's, if it's if it's, why does a flower have pedals and an arrangement. That is the path straight path the mathematics and art. Like, God, why do we separate all this stuff so much. Because we don't want to create healthy productive people we want to create people that will feed the labor force. Actually she pull. Yes, exactly. She pull is an unfortunate the great term that came up in the last couple of decades. Okay, so how do we make this happen. I'll go back to what I was posting earlier and what I said earlier. I think a simple one page template so that everyone who was involved in these calls can fill it out in a few minutes. I suggested four or five. Boxes I love. I love in the box I hate out of box purpose, what why benefit stuff like that people who was involved. No, not about customers not about the finances but who wants to do this processes are there methods that help us do it technology because it's going to be tech driven. And what makes it special unique should be easy to fill that out. And if we take all of these different things like I put a little earlier the OGM deliverals we've the world find the best people from the team. Join a generative comments global amnesia community food services. Stacy your game project the big quilt the big fungus different other services. I mean, some of them you could fill all of them out Jerry but Stacy you could probably fill half of them out that interest you I could fill a few out. Pete could fill all of them out mark on from maybe the half. And then we've got lots and lots of stuff which can be shifted through and see where the inspiration emerges and see also where a lot of the overlaps are which is part of my mission part of my mission in the next project is to is to illustrate somehow the big the mosaic that came up in conversation yesterday. Yeah, like what does that mosaic look like. And so for me, the mosaic turns out to be another good metaphor because the mosaic is made a little pieces of tile, either broken or shaped but but each tile is like this little independent entity. And for me, each project idea that's each micro or tiny project idea is like a mosaic piece. And many of the more we can make the mosaic pieces serve many different projects the better. Yeah. So a mosaic piece gets more valuable. The more different things it serves. Yeah. Right. And that's that's a that's a measure of the value of a product is like this is really eminently reusable. This is this is like a linchpin in the middle it's a lubricant for for five different components we've been trying to solve this little mosaic piece will solve that that's a fabulous thing let's fund, let's fund that and then and then outside of this we need some we need funders who have a map of their most of their mosaic that then says just pour money into the fund investor, rather than making your way through the project plans and doing things individually you're welcome to do that. Yeah, go go crazy you know fill those buckets if you want to. You've got like a view over this whole thing and there's a bunch of different funders sitting around this community with grant funding in this case, as opposed to funding of you know, being paid for services, but that works really well. Coincidentally have in. In obsidian, I coincidentally so obsidian is the markdown editor with which it's pretty easy to edit massive wiki. Right. Stacey, have you ever seen this. No. Okay, so, so markdown is a very, very, very simple form of hypertext mark up. The worldwide web is built using HTML. Are you at all familiar with HTML. Okay, so the hyper, so the hypertext markup language, HTML is a simple version of a different thing called HTML, the standard generalized markup language and markup languages are things where I put I put these two pound signs in front of the word status in mark down that means make this a second level headline. Okay, so if I go to view mode here. See, now I have a first level headline weaving the world a second level headline and bold but smaller text called status, and I don't and I've got bullets down here. Fill lead Jerry, if I go back to edit mode. Now you'll see that the bullets are dashes and the third level. Here's a third level headline is these three things. Markdown is a very simplified version of HTML, which is a very simplified version of HTML. And these are all called kind of markup languages because what they do is you leave little marks in the middle of text. Okay, massive. You're welcome. That massive wiki is a wiki that says, let's just use the simplest possible exchange format for information, which is marked down. Markdown files so these these files that don't have a lot of, they don't have markdown doesn't have anywhere near the semantic richness or the expressive richness of markup of hypertext markup language markup language that's why markdown markup. But, but this little markdown file dot md is the extension on a markdown file is readable by just zillions and zillions and zillions of apps out there is easily exchanged and it's the reason why Pete loves it is that is that it has this frangibility transactability exchangeability interoperability that's fabulous. He we then he then created an ogm wiki so there is a wiki for ogm in which, and this is kind of the file directory of the ogm wiki wiki shouldn't really have a file directory which is a different conversation to have but there are some templates, and he created some different kinds of templates and one of the templates which I think I don't see here was a project plan and what I did was some days ago actually it's not the moment I thought of weaving the world, I went and opened up the template and saved it as weaving the world project plan. So, and all of that explanation Hank is to show you that this is the framework that he had for Pete's original project plan. And if we meld that with the five five points that you were just talking about, we can sort of you know be on our way. But you know, what is the current status the project, who is handling the standard project roles what are they responsible for who is the sponsor of the project, who's actually the manager who's on the team, what are their goals, what do they need. I don't know how this is different from the people above. What approach are they taking to do this, what is their work plan timeline. Yeah, how are they communicating. So are they using like a matter most channel and some email when how often do they meet that kind of thing notes and then sub projects what else what else is related to this. Yeah. Right. So, so, so what we can do is we can create a Google Doc template that we can then improve over time, which lets us. Let's us then just pick one up make a template, put it in the right place, and then we need to have a couple different kinds of conversations. One conversation is around each project plan to make it good. Another conversation is the level above to try to rationalize the different project plans and where there's duplication say well. Are these two the same project are they different, make them turn them into more mosaics tiles that would fit into the mosaic. Right. Right. But that but that then helps us build this whole artifact. Yeah, right. Does that make sense. Stacy was that too much. No. To me, to me it makes sense. And what I was suggesting is simple enough that you could put it out to all of GM if you want to all the people who show up regularly on the different calls it's a smaller subset. And it's simple enough to do. I mean people probably spent hours making that plan you said you and be together. I'm thinking of something people can do in a couple of minutes. And before they posted on the Google Docs, maybe have a glass of wine and vino veritas and come back to it and post it the next morning. But I mean it doesn't take a long time. But that's the way I work. I'm a type of nerdy guy which is different than a tech nerd. I'm a process nerd, and I get inspiration from from from associating with words. So I saw words in there and I can associate with them and I get new ideas. Other people are other have other of those skills or, or, or, or talents. So some people are visible so I mean maybe a fourth, a fifth, a sixth box should be put your logo on or something like that and then can associate that way. And then it can get get out to all the people who are willing to get involved. And since, as Tracy, as Stacy said, earlier, GM is both the owners and the users and it's creating this thing that everyone can get benefit from. So it's a happy surprising number of people who don't show up for the calls. But we're interested in joining it. Yeah. That would be my, my logic to it. Thank you. And, and my vision, my, my visual for this is that there are a whole bunch of attractive easy to understand things that live above the surface. We're trying to frame the blog the etc. And then we are kind of trying to entice people to join us metaphorically underground, weaving together these things and building the artifacts and making making the gender of Commons, making the shared nutrient fungus work better, feed us better. Right. Yeah, because because we've been starving. Like, like, if I, if I mash up the fungus metaphor with the, we're with the amnesia metaphor that we have no memory, no collective memory. We've been starving for decades because we're being fed stupid media. And we're not able to sort of make this all work together. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Cool. So one of my big frustrations in OGM has been wanting to get to the point where we can share out hey, let's get practical let's go build stuff and do stuff. And every time we get kind of close, we're not really close enough to go open the doors and invite everybody in that much. Recently, the closest we got was, I just showed you obsidian, which I mean, to set up obsidian and understand how to save documents to the repository on GitHub, where the documents are all being hosted and all that. As Pete said yesterday, it's kind of still not transparent and easy. It requires, you know, it's not nearly as easy as cranking up a new document in Google Docs, unfortunately. So every time we get to the point where it's kind of almost ready for the bigger group to just jump in and start playing with, it's not quite enough. So what I'd love to do is figure out what's that what's our quickest path to just start iterating on these things, which may mean a shared directory on Google Docs that starts having this, you know, similar templates, and we just replicate Pete's template over into a Google Doc, marry that up with what you were thinking about, you know, improve that a couple times so that we're happy with the template, and then start copying that out to make project plans for the show game for etc etc. That would make sense and then then we can invite other people to come pick up a template and go do it. The danger then is that we get we wind up drowning in proposals or pitches. So a lot of pent up energy. I mean, we've been doing this for, I don't know, 16 or 18 months now. I think people who really want to get things done have stepped out of the conversation a lot, because you know we were we were frustrating we're just kind of kicking around talking a lot. But they might actually come back in if we start showing that we were building stuff. And then Stacy, I'm trying to figure out. So this is really kind of for the project plan to turn your written blueprint into more of a project plan to start thinking about. Okay. How do we make this a replicable thing that, you know, what is the instruction kit that we point people to this as here's how to set up the show game for you. It might need a name and a logo and a focus and a rhythm and whatever, like, like, you know, Pete likes to say that a project is a project one has a people who are devoted to it. Communication rhythm, meaning we meet here on these dates and times. A URL or a name or something like that and a couple other things. Yeah, go ahead, Stacy. I'm thinking of something smaller that I'm doing that might be better for this because I don't see the project game as like one person's project. It's actually just the opposite. It's more of a house where the projects go inside of it. So I don't, I don't know how that would work. It's a different approach. It's more like, what would be the elements of this, like there would have to be a music library, there would have to be a directory of experts and what their expertise is in. So how do the, how do the libraries you're describing fit into the show games. Once you have participants, they would go, let's say they're putting together their show, because this is when everybody becomes their own producer. They go into the library and get whatever music they're going to use that music gets recorded so that people working on, like, all those different ideas to give musicians credit. They can use that data for their own projects, they can do whatever they want has nothing. What one person does has really nothing to do with what somebody else does, but they're working together without even realizing it. So I may be misunderstanding your project a bit because what you just described sounds more like a whole bunch of people curating their own playlists. Of stuff they like and when you say game show. I'm actually envisioning the reason I keep coming back to the word host is that I'm thinking Monty Hall and the prices right and or cards into humanity or name your favorite game so when you say game show and we flip it to show game. I'm not thinking that this is a bunch of curated lists at all. Yes. Okay, so my project is really about the pre game show. So the idea is, yes, that's what we're looking to create, but the project is actually in the creating. For both of these ideas, I think that the making the doing the creating is is like the fun and the project. But for me, there's already like millions of people who have playlists on Spotify, for example, because Spotify seems to have eaten the music world or on iMusic or iTunes except Apple is holding those for ransom because those stay inside of you know their software. And so there's all the already bazillion of playlists of good music. But this is about putting it together, like in one place, but there's more which is why I think I'm going to. If you don't mind I'm going to send you this other project which I think maybe April would be interested in. And it started out as like a writing slash healing project and it's really more geared, I think it's more geared to women, only because we tend to write out our stories more. I send it to you because so I was thinking of it in terms of education, like I thought it was a great writing thing a great reading comprehension thing, but a better way for kids to express themselves. So I've been using my own diary to express myself so it's a little bit revealing but I used it as a sample to show how this project would work. And it's also it also ties into other people like you'll read at the end of my writing where somebody I mentioned, there's a link. And it goes to her page and when I spoke to her she's very excited about not just adding her page, but her own writing and then her sprouts. So it was a few different ideas all connected into one that I thought technology people would be interested in because you know and people interested in collective intelligence would be interested, but then regular people that are just interested in reading and writing and healing and mental health. They'd be interested. I'm going to send you that. Okay, thank you. And what you're talking about right now makes me realize also that an important part of what this could be is as we could really really really maybe be helpful with sexism racism xenophobia, etc. In that, when people are journaling their journaling their personal experiences and we can weave that into the larger context of historically, why is this been so shitty for so long and who's been trying to fix it and how do the laws fit into this and whatever I even if what this becomes is like enhanced journaling. Right. It was about building empathy that was at the that was at the core of it was build empathy and it starts by stories. Exactly. And well what's nice about journals is the personal and they attract empathy. Right by their nature. So that I like that. Okay, so I need to I need to step back a little bit from my assumptions about what you mean by by the game show game game show. Send me the document. We are over this call time but this has been again super fruitful and juicy one one one more thing Jerry let me invite you to step back from your assumptions about when it's ready. One of my favorite stories about prototyping is that the original prototype value in front of you just holding in front of you that there is right and see what it is. Well, there's a matter. It's your smartphone in a leather wallet. It's a black box. I was going to say, yeah. Just a second. Many years ago but Hold it right in front of you. The first version ever made of the first smartphone ever made was a piece of balsa wood, which had people from ideal painted on it, a couple of buttons and saw a bit of a screen, and they gave it to people and they said, keep this in your pocket or your purse for a week. Take it out every once in a while and put your fingers on the so called buttons and tell us are there too many buttons are they too close together do you think the screen is big enough. The prototype is is an iterative thing that that's good enough right at the beginning, but has to go through 100 iterative processes. So that's what I mean I didn't want to bring that into the conversation yesterday because was it Monday, because they were talking about such tech key stuff. The Monday calls or their geekiest calls and yeah, I could only have understand the stuff. But I mean, all the stuff that Pete and Mark and some of the others are talking about are much more advanced versions of the first prototype of balsa wood. But metaphor, they're operating at a semantic geeky whatever layer, but some of the stuff that they're talking about is very prototyping as well. Famously, famously also Jeff Hawkins, who was the engineer of the first palm pilot, and the first palm pilot was also a wooden mockup. It may have been the same project because I think ideal probably had some of the design. I think it was the first palm pilot. Someone is reading the doorbell so I'm going to have to leave. Okay, if you keep going on I'll catch it on the recording. Sounds great. I think very inspiring call. I think we should wrap because I have to unload my brain now. I put in the chat, the smaller project that I was talking about. I clicked on the link and I had to request access because you didn't have it shared out so you, you will receive a little ping from me saying oops please grant me access. All right, and thank you for taking a look at it. Cool. Hey, thank you. Have a great season.