 Okay, so how do we check in with Amherst media they're here. I can see them in the attendees now while we're getting things ready. I can't see the attendees. So they're there. Okay, so we assume they're recording. We're good to go. I'm recording to the cloud. So, okay, it's happening. All right. So welcome to the Amherst planning board meeting of October 7. 2020 based on Governor Baker's executive order suspending certain provisions of the open meeting law. GL 30 a section 20 is signed Thursday, March 12 2020 that this planning board meeting is being held virtually using the zoom platform my name is Jack jumpsack. And I chair the planning board. I'm calling this meeting to order at 632pm. And this meeting is being recorded and is available via Amherst media live stream minutes are being taken as normal. I will not take a roll call board members when you hear your name called unmute yourself, answer firmly and please place yourselves back on mute. So Maria child. Here. Tom Long here. Andrew McDougal here. Doug Marshall present. Janet McGowan here. Johanna Newman. Not here. I'm here. So board members of technical difficulties arise we may need to pause temporarily to rectify the problem, and then continue the meeting. If you do have technical issues. Please let Sean or Pam know. The discussion may be suspended while the technical technical issues are addressed in the minutes will note if a disconnection has occurred. Please use the raise hand function to ask or make a comment I see your raised hand and I'll call upon you to speak after speaking remember to read mute yourself. Opportunity for public comment will be provided during the general public comment period. If you wish to make a comment during a public comment period, you must join the meeting via the zoom teleconferencing link link is shown on the slide and can be entered into a search engine by typing that link. You can also listed on the meeting agenda which can be found on the town website. Through the calendar listing for this meeting, or you can go to the planning board webpage and click on the most recent agenda, which also lists the zoom link. So with regard to others going in. If you wish to make a comment by clicking the raise hand button when public comment is solicited if you have joined the zoom meeting is a telephone. Please indicate you wish to make a comment by pressing star nine on your telephone when called on please identify yourself by stating your full name address and put yourself back into mute when finished speaking. Thank you for your time to express their views for up to three minutes and at the discretion of the planning board chair, if a speaker does not comply with these guidelines or exceeds their lot of time their participation will be disconnected from the meeting. Moving on the slide will now show the meeting agenda. So we have the minutes from September 16, 2020. Any board discussion on these minutes. I'm sorry I was looking I didn't have my button up here. The only thing I would say it. Yeah, I'm Andrew. I didn't have my raise hand handy so sorry for interrupting you. The only thing I was going to say just on the on the minutes was this kind of confused me during the call but when we were talking about the tent at the Jones library that we said the sides would be white and not opaque. Is opaque so like I don't we just want to say the sides will be white in the minutes. It just that I found that a confusing point in the, in the discussion so so the minute currently opaque or white. It says the 40 foot 10 sides would be white and not opaque. I would just say let's strike and not opaque just the 40 foot 10 sides would be white. Okay. Yeah, I think that's what he said, right? I think he did say that. Yeah, he said with the, that's exactly what he said so they were captured correctly but I just. Thank you. Andrew and any other comments. Janet had a comment that she sent to me via email. It had to do with what she thought was a kind of a thin rendition of the Emmer still subdivision so. I mentioned that to Jack via an email and he suggested that maybe we come up with when it was discussed in the past so Pam has kindly gone through the agendas for the planning board and has discovered that it was discussed five times. In the last year since actually October 16 of 2019 so we can list those minutes as places where people can go to get more information if they want more as a footnote. Yeah, or just part of the sentence here. And maybe we can do it in brackets since it wasn't actually presented at the meeting. So we'll bracket it and say planning board minutes of ex dates will provide more information on this topic. Is that satisfactory. Yeah, I know some of the projects, you know they do have one but this one we're revisiting. After some time, you know, seems reasonable. Any other comments on the minutes. Any motions to approve. Sure, I'll move to approve. Okay, Doug, thank you. Second. Second. All right, Janet. And we'll do a roll call. Approve as amended. Approve as amended. And start with Maria. Approve and nice job on the minutes. I like the new formatting. I hope it didn't take more time than usual. Thanks, Pam. Yes, thank you, Pam. Janet. Janet. Approve. I'm sorry. Thank you. Andrew. Approve. And Tom. And Doug. Approve. And I'm approving. That's six zero with Johanna. Hopefully we'll hop on here shortly. Okay, so we have, I guess we just bounce into this hearing. I know I was communicating with, with, with Mandy about when this CRC. The, the, the, the, the, the sort of interface would take place. And I said to like, seven 15, whatever. So I guess we'll just jump into the Kestrel. Projected. It is a six 39 now. And Chris, you'd mentioned, you wanted to. I wanted to say it now or later. One, I could speak now. public comment period or mention it and then I'm so sorry let's do the public comment periods and so at this point those that are you know within the attendees or otherwise do we have any any comments that you'd like to offer at this time general comments and I don't see any hands raised so let's let's move on to that hearing then did you get your preamble I do I have that right in front of me okay so it's 640 in accordance with the provisions of MGL chapter 40a this public hearing has been duly advertised and notice thereof has been posted and is being held for the purpose of providing the opportunity for interested census citizens to be heard regarding SPR 2021-04 Kestrel land trust 37 Bay Road request site plan review approval to convert a single family home into an office for a non-profit institution under section 3.330.0 of the zoning bylaw including various site improvements on the lot which is map 25B parcel 20 it's FPC R-O and R-LD zoning district as well so are there any board member disclosures I see none the applicant presentation way will be provided by Tom Harmon yep that's correct how are you okay hi how you doing welcome you can go all right so you want me to go ahead and share my screen Pam you can I have some slides made to primarily what was available to the board in their packet and just the additional items that came today but you can go ahead and share yours that's that's fine or I will okay I got it I think here can you see mine I can see your screen there we go okay so let me move a couple things around here so good evening everyone my name is Tom Hartman I'm principal at CNH architects here in Amherst we're located above Hastings if you didn't know and happy to represent Kestrel Land Trust here the executive director Kristen DeBoer is my wife so we need to we just needs to go well for me just as a disclosure so the project is a change of use Kestrel purchased this property a couple years ago it's currently a single family home and there was a land deal done with the town so that the pond is actually now town property and so with the change of use obviously there's the site plan review there's building code issues there's conservation commission review and there's historic review as part of this process we did have a meeting with the conservation commission on September 23rd and received a favorable decision with a couple minor conditions such as notification of when the project starts and when the project ends and some wood chips and hay and seed on a pathway that I'm going to show you and we are scheduled to be with the historic commission next week for a demolition delay decision it's not a hearing it's whether they're going to have a hearing so the the schedule on this project is really driven by Kestrel Trust would like to move in in January that's that's the move-in period in terms of the work I'm going to show you the schedule that we're we're working against is when the asphalt plants close typically around Thanksgiving so there's a little bit of asphalt to be done the team involves Tiagno construction they're doing the work my firm and and let's so let me show you basically the project so it's 37 Bay Road there's a long driveway up up up a hill to the existing house I can show you pictures of the house if you like this hundred foot line is the offset from the pond there's also a 200 foot boundary from Plum Brook once it leaves the pond and again we we had a decision with the conservation commission so the scope of work includes an accessible public entrance which is required by the building code for any change of use it also includes and I'll go through this in some detail with you the removal of three sheds the removal of a set of wooden steps which are a little bit of a hazard right now the potential removal of the garage here which as you'll see would open up the site that most likely will not happen within the two-year period of this permit or site plan review but if it did we would certainly accept a condition to come back and review it with you Kestrel's deciding whether they want to do that or not but I doubt it there's also 11 parking spaces that we're providing including two within the garage and then there's in this area there's going to be a fire department turnaround so that the fire trucks when they come could back down into this area and turn around that's right where the dam is so the public property the town line is is right past where that turnaround is I should say that the reason we're looking at this turnaround is Commissioner Mora and Assistant Chief Olmsted we're very helpful working with me because when you do this change of use NFPA 1 comes into play and that requires a 20-foot wide driveway for driveways of this length and it's existing 14 feet so you can imagine the grading the complications of actually making that 20 foot wide would probably be over a hundred thousand dollars and disruptive to say the least so what they've done with me is to accept a compliance alternative to provide a fire alarm system which automatically notifies the fire department okay so with this change of use that's one of the requirements that comes along this is going to be trap rock gravel it will be plowed you know snow will get plowed over into here and it will be kept clear it will have signage that says fire department access no parking and then as we get closer up to the top up to the house what we're proposing to do is make an accessible walkway this asphalt and take some of the existing goshen stone and rebuild the patio so that this becomes our accessible entrance this is what it looks like now so this light fixture is going to be replaced and this door is going to be replaced and then that goshen patio will be brought up to the finish floor level the new door just so you can see it is going to look a little bit of glass there so it's a little lighter it's pretty dark in that hallway now and then that light fixture right here will be replaced with something smaller a globe so it's under a soft it so in terms of dark sky thinking I don't think there's a problem there at all just to show you the parking so we're going to take out about two feet of the the plantings that are there we'll put some trap rock gravel in there as a strip we're going to modify a wall here we've got five parking spaces that you pull into that are 10 feet by 18 feet two more down here that are I think they're nine foot by 20 feet two more here and then two in the garage this here is indicating the fire department area they gave me their specs to work with and then this space will be signed as visitor parking it's important to say you know there's seven staff people who are here there's board members who come but it's an office it's not typically open to the public and if there were an appointment with a person with disabilities kestra would know and this this spot would be available for them interestingly an accessible parking space is not required because there's left less than 15 parking spaces um we've reviewed the existing septic system and it appears to be adequate adequate for the change of use there is town water that comes up the driveway and I believe there's also a supplemental well there's a pressure tank in the basement lighting again at this front entrance will be under the soffit there's an existing pole light and then there's numerous floodlights around the property um and to just to note the office hours for kestra are typically between eight and five o'clock eight and six o'clock so they're not there late into the evening trash and recycling will be stored inside the building and taken to the transfer station by staff and then lastly down at the very end of the driveway here we're proposing to have a sign that does not exceed uh 12 square feet are there any questions i see andrew yes can you hear me yes great thanks tom appreciates presentation and good good seeing you again um one one question I I have and I'm just trying to kind of recall what what the answer would be but could you just remind me how the the the automated notice to the fire department translates into not needing a 20 foot driveway yes so um they have the authority to accept what's called a compliance alternative and so in this situation where number one the occupancy is very low um there you know the need for them to have a 20 foot driveway with such such uh low occupancy isn't really necessary and given the cost of doing that putting in a fire alarm system which is over and above what is required by the building code so you don't need to do this for the building code but putting that system in and as soon as a smoke detector a co-detector would go off they would get notified directly that that system had gone off and in their mind that's a that's a that's a good trade and that fire alarm is about $15,000 and I would actually argue provides superior coverage than the 20 foot driveway is it is the purpose of the 20 foot drive I guess kind of play this out so with the note with that early notification people could vacate and the fire truck doesn't need like is 20 foot requirements of fire trucks can get around existing cars yeah that's pretty much what it is that's a rationale okay yeah yep okay um that was my question thanks jack thank you andrew on dug sure um tom is this considered a public building from mass access board point of view it is and the only thing that is required is the public entrance that's just doesn't matter if you spend any money or not um the assessed value of the property is about 225,000 square foot so our 30 threshold is about $75,000 and if we cross that threshold then an accessible toilet room would be required but our cost of work is about $50,000 $60,000 is what we're looking at and so I've reviewed this and this will be in my building permit application to to rob more okay um I guess it's more of a conversation with rob but we had a similar instance at the university and ended up having to put in a accessible restroom and an accessible path to a meeting room and uh I don't see either of those indicated on your plans it's really not relevant to the planning board but just a heads up that uh at least in some situations you might have to do more work inside yes and I do have an accessible route from this entrance to the meeting rooms okay great yeah thank you so then it's just whether anybody needs to use the restroom while they're there I know and yes and and you know it's into to the part of the motivation of getting into this building quite honestly is to take what's being paid in rent right now and to reinvest that into the building kestrel does have the notion of doing a fuller renovation um at some time um and you know putting in that accessible toilet room could easily be done there's two bathrooms back to back it's it's a it's a cost issue right now and we're right under the requirement okay um thank you no further comments thank you Doug Janet um Mr. Hartman I have a question about the accessible pathway and the two parking spaces in front of it um I'm just wondering if there are two cars parked there and say somebody pulls up in parks and has a walker or has difficulty walking if that's going to be hard for them to get around it seems awkward to me to have two parking spaces right in front of an accessible pathway and and that's why we're we're designating this one as a visitor parking space again there's seven staff with 11 parking spaces and including the garage if someone was a visitor again kestrel would know they're coming and if they showed up unannounced um you know cars could be moved and and they would be facilitated um and the other question I have is why 11 spaces is that part of the requirement of no that's the most I could get with with the minimal amount of work essentially a little bit of a backhoe and some paint so we're we have to modify a stone wall here to get the turnaround in there but I was trying to get as many as I could because there will be board members who will come up and I don't know the count but um so that's just the most I could get the requirement I think um let me look in the application was was below that based on the square footage of the building Chris has her hand is that can you speak to that Chris yeah I think the um the application says that there were 11.3 parking spaces that would be required if this building were in the downtown area and were used as an office we really don't have specific parking requirements for an office in this um RLD zoning district so to get as close as possible we use the the downtown requirement so 11.3 would be rounded down to 11 and it looks like they meet that requirement of 11 thank you so the 11 is not required but it would be required if it was downtown is that right that's correct there's a sort of um uh I don't know how you would describe it but there's like a catchall phrase for um parking requirements that are not covered specifically and what it says is for all other permitted uses including lots of different uses um but adequate parking spaces to accommodate under normal conditions the cars of occupants employees members customers clients and visitors to the premises so that's sort of the catchall for things that are not specifically um outlined in beginning of section seven of the zoning bylaw but they are um complying with the requirement that would be true if this office were downtown okay so that's more clear and then I wondered Mr Hartman could just briefly um go through what the conservation commission is requiring him to do sure and I didn't I didn't actually speak to the steps yet so let me bring that okay um so there are three sheds that are being removed two are up here outside the hundred foot buffer there is a and I'll show you photographs of this um there's a shed right here down near the pond which is falling apart that's being removed there's a garden fence area that's being removed and we're proposing to remove these wooden steps so let me show you what that looks like um so down down the hill there's a little gazebo with the dock that's the garden that's being removed okay this is the shed that's being removed it's maybe I don't know eight feet by 12 feet something like that and then there's a set of wooden steps that go from that shed which you can see over here on the right and they it's a y shape and they go up to the house and they're starting to rot they're starting to fall apart and um so my recommendation to kestrel is to remove those um or rebuild them and put handrails in you know there's a gentler walk that you can take around to get to the pond via that garden anyhow and so one of the conditions from the conservation commission was to notify them when the project starts and when the project ends so that they can come out and kestrel is having some tree work done as well there's several dead trees that are going to be taken down um and once those are taken when the steps come out we're going to hay them and seed it tiagno is doing that work and then uh who is it's wood smiths is the contractors coming in after them and they're going to take down these these various trees and then they'll chip up those trees and spread that where the stairs were before okay thank you okay there might have been one other minor one um but nothing of significance uh tom hey Tom how are you thanks for your presentation um sorry i was unable to make the site visit so i just had a couple quick questions that i'm sure you could answer in a second um what i'm not seeing and what i probably would have seen on site is the topo lines so i'm not seeing any landscape here so i i'm having a hard time visualizing um i could see from your photo there is a slope down to the water which is where my thinking was coming from um is there any um requirement um for you to manage demo construction paving and runoff from that process to that pond um is that something that came up with the conservation group or is that something that you'll um are you in any proximity to have runoff into the water into the pond uh so let me see if i can show you find the right picture here i'll give you a little tour of the sound so i'm just gonna run you around ready so that's going towards the excessive new accessible entrance this is on the north side of the house there's a walkway those are the steps that's the front door and then bear with me so then we start to go around so this is on the west side of the house and basically there's a plateau where the septic system and everything is and then it drops off i would say probably 25 30 feet and it's all planted and and wooded um and then as you come around um a little bit more here the steps that go down to the pond are right here they go down so it's a very narrow um area so once all those steps come out again we'll hay it you know if we're concerned that's what i was going to run down there we'll we'll do bales or whatever we need to do but yeah that's the primary level uh area of disruption you can see the steps there again um but the you know what's what's gonna feed the that slope where we're disturbing there's not a real catchment of water that's coming from that area got it okay thank you sure thank you tom uh dug yeah i had a follow up question i don't know if it's for tom or for chris um i guess this is a residential zoning area and have has there been any resistance from any neighbors to the change from residential to uh essentially an office use in in the neighborhood may i answer that please yes go ahead chris we have not heard from any neighbors we did send out um a butter's notices to everybody who owns property within 300 feet and we haven't heard of any issues with this the section 3.330 of the zoning bylaw is um a nonprofit um what we call a nonprofit educational use it's a 501c3 corporation that is allowed to operate pretty much anywhere in any zone with a site plan review from the planning board so um i wanted to take this opportunity to apologize to you all for not giving you a development application report it's been a struggle to get um everything done recently we have so much work and things going on so normally we would provide you i'm telling this for the new people with a development application report that would outline what the section of the zoning bylaw is that this is allowed under and then would outline various dimensional requirements and parking requirements etc but we weren't able to do that but anyway this is a use that is allowed under that section of the bylaw nonprofit educational institution in any zoning district by site plan review and we have not gotten any negative uh well any any comments from anyone about this so um thank you chris i i realized i think i jumped the gun we should have the site visit report might be moot at this point but uh who was there and who can give a report i know i did not make it maria hi i was there i can give a really okay um basically um i think tom covered it all but we did start up at the house we stood in the parking area and saw that cutting back on the um berms would help with um car turnaround space but that very minimal amount of change was happening to the paved areas the most change was probably that walkway to the front door which we walked and we saw the roof overhangs were really deep and like tom said the front light is changing and he pointed out um he would get us cut sheets which he has um and then he showed us the dog fence area near the front that's being removed and how these large boulders would basically flank the the walkway to the front door um and then everywhere else on the site we walked it but there was very little change on if anything it was just the sheds are being removed um and like he said he has a very steep slope from the house down to the pond um but we walked it anyways was a great beautiful morning and um yeah so we saw the sheds we're gonna be removed and the steps the wood steps that were already rotting um actually a lot of the sheds were actually rotting too so um and then we did walk down to the turnaround area where the fire truck would back up and leave and um again very minimal is changing if anything it's just signage and some um yeah just clearing I think so um again we yeah we kind of saw the walkway and that literally is uh the the biggest impact to the site um and uh we were told that the sign would be located at the street behind the guardrail where there currently is a mailbox we didn't walk down there but as I was driving out I I took a look at it but um didn't look like it would be blocking uh site a line of sight to traffic um we didn't see all the lights that were there but the main one that was changing um I was told if it was already there and it wasn't compliant we don't have purview over but if whatever they are changing we do and the one that he is changing is under a very deep overhang so it um it would be compliant with the dark sky um thanks so I think that's it I think it was just me Andrew and Johanna who were there from the planning board okay yeah and then Chris was there of course I'm just checking out for Johanna is here yeah but I don't see her um so I uh Chris so I wanted to offer some information about lot coverage and building coverage I had asked Tom to provide this and and he did provide lot coverage for the entire lot um which I think was 11 but the way we usually calculate lot coverage and building coverage is based on the particular zone that is being looked at and Pam has um a map that shows the zoning district so if she brings that up that would be helpful but I wanted to mention that this project is compliant with regard to lot coverage and building coverage in the um the the northern part of the lot closer to Bay Road is in the RO zoning district and um you can see that in yellow here and 25 percent um lot coverage is allowed and the driveway encompasses about seven percent lot coverage and then in the lighter yellow area the RLD area um there is nine percent lot coverage and that includes the building and the driveway and parking and 15 percent is allowed and as far as building coverage goes it's estimated I estimated that's about four percent building coverage and 10 percent is allowed and um none of the um setback requirements are being um imposed upon so I just wanted to let you know that and uh again those are things that we would normally include in the development application report and we just didn't get a chance to do that so thank you. Thank you uh Andrew. Uh thanks Jack the I was just going to add on to what Maria said the only the only other things that I could think of we also we did mention snow removal and uh and Tom shared that that would be sort of pushed off the south side of the uh of the parking lot but it would it's it's well beyond the uh the buffer for the pond and then we had also talked about um public access to the to the to the pond and um we did mention that I believe the town has the ability to put a uh like a parking lot nearby that could be used for for residents who are wishing to to access the space but um Tom or Chris you could probably clarify that a little bit. Yeah I was corrected that the the easement is going to be written for maintenance on the dam that's how the easement is going to be written so the easement will not probably be written for public access although de facto it will no one's going to stop anyone from walking the 30 feet from the driveway to the to the dam that's the intent but Kristen made it clear to me that um it's a vehicle easement for acts for maintenance on the dam that's what it's it's going to be written as and I think she's working with Dave Zomek on that. So I actually had a question about you know the pond and uh where's the dam on the pond um I'm just who owns that property that the the pond is located on and I know that there is a trail from near where the rotary is that that leads to that to the pond so I'm just wondering whether it's relevant to the project or not but I'm just curious. Yeah the the dam and the pond are owned by the town and there was a conservation uh easement placed on the associated land that's not in the boundary of the property we just showed this was a much larger property before and there is a trail that connects from the rotary around past the dam and then all up through the hills and everything um so I walked it the other day with my daughter went across the dam and then ended up going up the range so it's very nice. Okay thank you and is this is this going to be you know Kestrel has I know an existing office is this going to be their main office or just a satellite office? No they're moving their office okay and and I should point out there is no residential component to this it's a business use from building code perspective it's changing from a house to a business use okay great Chris. I just wanted to mention that this all ties together with the property that's owned by Paul Cole the Vista Terrace or we know it as Applebrook subdivision which is along west street so Paul Cole is going to I believe donate I think that's the right word um about seven acres of property in his subdivision which connects to this trail that goes goes up over the mountain range and the upstream property also connects to that trail from the other side from the eastern side so it'll all be connected eventually and it'll be a really great asset to the town to be able to use that property. Thank you. Are there any other questions from the board Doug? Well I didn't have a question I was going to make a motion that we close the public hearing and or end discussion and vote on this application. I think we need public comment and then we can do that. Any other comments from the board? Okay we'll go back to you Doug and is there anybody from the public that wants to speak on this issue? Do you see anything Pam? Well Mr. Zomek was an attendee and he had his hand raised. I have moved him over to the panelists so I'm not sure if he wanted to make a comment or if he was letting us know that he was here for the um the other discussion. Can folks can folks hear me? Yes. Yeah no there was a series of questions about the larger property and Tom and Chris handled them well but yeah if there are any other questions about you know the the broader conservation initiative up there I'm happy to to answer those. Kristen DeBoer the executive director of Kestrel and I have been working on this project for a number of years. This was always part of the vision to have Kestrel cite their office at the house and you know it's exciting to see it coming to fruition. Eventually all of the trails as as was stated earlier will be connected to Bay Road and then out to the Applebrook development as Chris stated to the west allowing people to get up to the miles of trails on the Mount Hoyok Range. So we'll be adding kiosks and additional parking areas in the months ahead so it's it's a pretty exciting initiative. So happy to take any questions but don't want to prolong the hearing. Thanks. I guess I was I was curious Atkins has you know parking there what have they weighed in at all in terms of you know what what's the parking policy on Atkins and people borrowing their their parking area for for access? Well I'm sure Chris could say more about that but I'll just say that we are we have planned all along to have a modest parking lot in the Applebrook development to the west and then we'll be slightly expanding the parking area on Bay Road which is at the Sweet Alice conservation area right on the frontage of Bay Road. You know I think Atkins has always been open to people parking at their at their establishment but we certainly as the town don't want to encourage that. There's also no crosswalks from Atkins across 116 yet as far as I know. So perhaps that might come in the future but we're hoping the Village Center as it develops it'll become more of a destination for people to enjoy Atkins take a hike on the range go mountain biking go for a run go fishing etc etc. Thank you Dave and without any other public comments I think we can go back to the Dugs motion and I think we need a second Andrew. I'll second. Okay excuse me Yes Chris. Would you like to find that the application meets the criteria of section 11.24 and were there any conditions that you wanted to attach to this? Mr. Marshall? Yes I want to find that the application is in accordance with section 11.24. I guess your question about conditions do we need to do we need to add some conditions that if the use of the property gets more intense that we would want some conversation about the adequacy of the septic system? That would be fine yeah and there was one other condition that came up and I can't find it now let's see if I can find it. They take down the garage. Come back and review the part the garage that's right. Do you want to review the garage if it is being taken down? I don't think we would need to review the garage demolition I think if something else were added we would want to review that. Do you want to grant the application approval to remove the garage or because if they take down the garage after two years they may need to file a new application with you but you could approve that removal now if you were so inclined. Would that kind of demolition require any more conservation commission review since there's now more land area and less building area? I don't think so. That's beyond the hundred foot well beyond and relatively level area as well. You could ask them to come back to tell you what they're going to do in the vicinity of the garage and at a public meeting if you wanted to do that. Okay I'm not sure I need to be the only one to respond to that. Does anybody else on the commission on the board have any thoughts about that? Jenna? I don't really have thoughts on the garage but I think that I think in the past we've often had a motion to close the hearing you know and then we had discussion and then we decided to be voted to approve the project and you know with conditions and then the conditions often came out during our discussion and obviously our original questioning so I think maybe collapsing those motions like the motion to do too many things might be what's kind of tripping us up a little bit so I thought we were just making a motion to close the hearing and then we were going to have a discussion and then so I'm happy to add a condition that they can remove the garage without coming back to us and if they want to build something new they should you know but do we know do we want to backtrack and yeah I'm happy to just move that we close the hearing. Okay so is there a second? I'll second. Okay Jenna and roll call. Janet? Yes. And Andrew? Yes. And Tom? Yes. Doug? Hi. Maria? Yes. And myself yes. So now we can discuss the conditions here in a little bit more formal format. The consensus is that the garage wouldn't require a review unless it's replaced by another structure. It's my understanding. Andrew you have your hand up? Yep. Yeah thanks Jack. The only thing I was going to say is I know that the the garage had some of the floodlights on it and so I think that would be something as if that were to come out we want to understand just how the the lighting would be managed relative to the parking spaces but I imagine that's a pretty quick and easy answer. Okay did you get that Chris? Yep. Okay. So there are two parking spaces proposed for the garage and I imagine that you would want those parking spaces to remain and they would be paved somehow. Is that correct? Is that a correct assumption? Andrew? Maybe Mr. Hartman could answer that. Yeah I mean the motivation for removing the garage would be to get more parking. It may mean re-striping the whole area. I don't I don't know what it means. I just know that it would free it up so I would think that it would have some modification of the parking layout and that's why I offered that we would come back and show you. So the question is do you want to come back at a public meeting or a public hearing? And that would be a question for the board. Do you want him to come back at a public hearing if he's going to be taking down the garage and redoing the parking there or is it enough to allow him to do that and then just have him come back at a public meeting to show you what he's doing? Yeah I mean I think impervious is impervious. I don't see why you know unless that's expanding in an area I don't know like we would want to review it other than just seeing it as you mentioned but Andrew? Oh Andrew you're muted. Oops I hit the lower hand instead of unmute. The only thing I would say is that you know if the garage is just replaced with natural landscaping that's fine. I'm just kind of recalling back the the parking space threshold and the ADA compliance of just you know we're at 11 I think you said if we got to 15 that would that would trigger need for ADA space so it might be worthwhile just to have a kind of formal acknowledgement of how many parking spaces there'll be here just to ensure that we're compliant with ADA regulations. Good point. Thank you. Janet? I'd like to add a simple condition that make that Kestrel ensure that handicap access to the pathway isn't impeded by the parking the two by the parking parking cars near there just kind of as an extra like keep it in mind thing. Sounds good and Doug? I guess enough people have brought up potential issues that might arise when when the garage was demolished that I'm wondering whether we should just be mute on that subject today and when and if the garage is demolished we'd treat it as any other project and have it come back. At a public hearing? Yes. Okay. Chris did you have your hand up? I do because I was responding to Mr. McDougal. There are two parking spaces that are proposed to be in the garage now so if the garage comes down there will be some space there and those two parking spaces can remain there but they have to be somehow reconfigured so I think I would recommend that you follow Mr. Marshall's proposal to be mute on the subject of the garage now. Does that make sense? Yes. So are there any other comments on the conditions and I guess you maybe want to roll with what you have Chris as a summary because we've been kind of going back and forth. I have to go back through let's see usually you say built according to plan and managed according to management plan so you probably want to say that and then condition regarding how the lights would be dealt with well that has to do with the garage so you don't need that anymore and Janet had a condition that Kestrel make sure or ensure that a handicapped access to the path is not impeded by parking parking cars in those in those two spaces so I think there would only be three conditions then build according to plan manage according to plan and don't allow the cars parked in those spaces to impede handicapped accessibility to the path is that correct and then if the garage would be taken down it would be coming before us again would be a new public hearing so I don't think you need to say anything about that good Doug yeah I guess I'd want to hear from Tom on whether he would he thinks his client would accept the condition for the uh accessible path or you know not obstructing the access to that path with the parking based on his description of the the scenarios and how they would manage that I would think you'd want to have that condition also say when needed since on a normal basis the parking might obstruct the you know the requirements for the four foot accessible route to the parking to the sidewalk but it sounds like through their management plan they would make sure that that was available and by moving cars out of the way when it's needed so I think that condition should either say when needed or we should have Tom's approval with it not being thus conditioned I'll accept the one needed okay any other comment on that uh Andrew you had you end up I I did it was um it was kind of related to what Doug was was proposing I think Doug's solution is actually nice and clean I I just I wasn't sure how exact that would be enforced and I think that if we can say it's within the management plan then that that would suffice thank you okay so um Tom Hartman do you have any other things in terms of wrapping up I do not thank you very much okay so uh and any final comments from the public um you see any I do not okay any no and then the applicant has spoken and the board any other board discussion okay well we have a motion to approve with the conditions stated and Chris helped me with the language here again um we've already closed the public hearing close the public hearing and approve the application um with the waivers and conditions as drafted the waivers are just listed in the application and I don't think we've gone through them but they would be erosion control um not lighting not signs um landscaping because they're not providing any landscaping and let's see the other one the fifth one um traffic traffic impact statement that's right so the waivers and conditions as drafted and requested and that the application meets the relevant requirements of section 11.24 of the zoning bylaw thank you Chris do we have a motion to accept those conditions that Chris is that Maria don't move all right and we have a second second Andrew second okay we'll do uh any discussion okay we'll do a roll call uh Janet yeah yes Andrew I Doug hi Maria yes and Tom approved and I am a yes yes so that's six zero and that closes Tom thank you very much thank you all have a great evening all right you too all right so we have waiting in the wings here Mandy Joe Haneke and Dave Zomac to uh further kind of present how the planning board may be of assistance to town council and the CRC moving forward um and then I guess we have a link to the uh the meeting that took place September 15th that Rob Moore presented but the basic we we asked Mandy and and Dave to come before us just because we're we're on a new new path here of how the planning board has been interact with the new form of town government um I thought Dave would be able to give a historic perspective uh on the zoning subcommittee um I don't know if you've been here longer than Chris restaurant but I thought that would be good to to get your perspective of of what you've seen from you know uh zoning subcommittee and obviously it you know over the years it just it really was interfacing with the you know town meeting uh etc so uh if it's reconstituted right now we have agreed that it's on kind of a hiatus stage but if it's reconstituted we want to know you know how um we would be able to assist uh the town in that respect and then obviously Mandy being the chair of the CRC um we just want to be able to you know ask you questions and and get feedback from you on this so uh Dave would you be able to kind of give us a rundown of what you know your historical perspective I hate to punt the first question but I might punt it to Chris because Chris I know history I was you know more gonna team up with Mandy to talk about I think where we're going from here but Chris certainly could give a thumbnail uh sketch of of where we've been through the years with the with the zoning subcommittee am I on that Chris or Jack may I speak Chris yes please so well the zoning subcommittee has been a subcommittee of the planning board as long as I've been here in town hall I've been here for 17 years and I think they were um they were probably existing before then um generally speaking um zoning amendments would be would come up from the zoning subcommittee the zoning subcommittee were was made up of members of the planning board and it varied between three and five members sometimes it was as low as two members um and they would you know recognize things that were uh troublesome during planning board meetings and planning board review of projects and also see that um certain things weren't working exactly right so they would recommend zoning amendments and they would bring those to the planning board um at various stages initial stages sometimes just when they thought about oh we really need to address this and they would there was a section on the planning board um agenda for the zoning subcommittee to present ideas and also to present um fully fleshed out zoning amendments the zoning subcommittee was usually the group that worked on uh final wording of zoning amendments before they were presented to the planning board for public hearings and then the planning board would make a recommendation to the town meeting about whether um whether an an amendment should be adopted by town meeting or not um and so the zoning subcommittee you know had had been meeting regularly and then I think it was probably in um sometime in the summer of 2019 they they had a brief time when they weren't meeting and then um started meeting again in September and then of course when uh COVID-19 came um they were considered to be a group that uh didn't have um quasi-judicial responsibilities and so the town manager made a decision to have only boards and committees that had quasi-judicial responsibilities to meet at the beginning um and and so the zoning subcommittee really hasn't met since I think since early March of 2020 but they were at that time I would say they were working on a number of things but it was um difficult for them to figure out what the pathway would be to bring something to town council um because the previous mechanism for doing that had had not been it hadn't been replaced but it hadn't been clarified either as to what would happen going forward and then uh the CRC um started to express interest in uh working on zoning amendments and so uh I think the issue became more uh more clouded and so that's I think where we are now trying to figure out where are we going forward is the zoning subcommittee still relevant does it still have a role um and um if not who's who's doing the work and uh I think that's probably as best as I can describe the current situation thank you um Janet so one of the confusions we had in the zoning subcommittee last fall was being told not to send things to town council because the town council wasn't ready but um so I just wanted to add that but I actually thought this was more of a meeting about how the town council CRC and planning board are going to work together and work on zoning and we know Rob Mora is already started his kind of rewrite um at the CRC meeting Ben Berger is it his name Gregor Gregor Gregor Gregor okay I'm sorry I was wrong so he's already they already have like a whole format that they're looking at to change the bylaw and then the CRC is trying to sort of set priorities and bring into the town council and I'm a little confused about who needs you know and so that's been kind of going on so I thought that that's what this agenda item was more focused on am I am I missing something or um that's what it's focused on yep okay but I was asked to give yeah I apologize if I didn't come across that was just kind of because I I know that we've talked about this issue at different meetings and Doug has said twice like why don't we just have someone from the CRC Andy Joe come in and talk to us and stuff like that about how they see all these different entities working together or what the next steps are so yeah I'm really sorry if I didn't come across in my presentation but thank you Janet for clarifying what we want to talk about here and so perhaps it's time for that Mandy can speak from uh as the CRC chair try and I hope I give you some information that you're actually looking for um yeah so you know for those members that are new um CRC has been working with the planning board for probably at least a year now or so on sort of how we can work together on zoning changes um and we've got a flow chart that's sort of been adopted we're working on following and figuring out we know it's got um probably some some changes that need to be made that that goes through and really sets forth just the required MGL and charter hearings and all of that for when something already gets to sort of the the almost finished stage that point where in what Chris just described of the prior process in a prior government when it hits the planning board for that hearing so everything after in that government when zoning subcommittee was done but now in in the new government planning board is not the only person that the only group that has to hold a hearing so does CRC um actually the council has to but the council is able to delegate it to a committee and that required hearing has been delegated to the CRC um and so we've got a a general flow chart on how all of that works with all of the different guidelines but but where we are you know where there's a lot of confusion and sort of just learning curve at this point now that we've kind of got that part at least set forth and how it might work on a regular basis is what to do before it's ready for those hearings um and and this gets a little more complicated because zoning bylaw revisions don't just have to come from the planning department or the zoning subcommittee um anymore it is highly likely that over the course of the next couple of years or regularly depending on the counselors that are elected that counselors will propose zoning by law amendments and so that that's a it starts a different way and so what what we've been which is one of the things that the flow chart is meant to deal with is figuring out no matter where it comes from what is that legally required process um but what we're dealing with now is um what happens when the planning department sees revisions that need made and wants to make those revisions you know the the planning board sees revisions or members of the planning board you know in all of your hearings encompass stuff and and encounter stuff and say hey maybe this needs revised or members of the CRC under their charge to review and make recommendations on matters dealing with planning and zoning um say hey this is what we've been hearing from our constituents what can we do and and that's where CRC and planning board for sort of a year have said well we've got a flow chart for the second half now let's figure out what to do with the first half and um one of the concern one of the things that CRC has been taken into account is staff time number one um but the other is we've got two bodies um that are tasked with dealing with zoning bylaw revisions which is the planning board and now CRC um and we really do want to work together with that um I think it depends on the type of revision that comes who might quote take a lead on that um what happened on September 15th at CRC really came about from the planning department saying hey we know the counselors have their own priorities and the council itself might have their priorities let's get some guidance and so that was the start of the process um that included surveying all the counselors and we've got a huge document I think it's about seven pages long or eight pages long that have just listings of priorities for counselors um there's 13 of us and that's a long document I have gone and combined that into what came up the most and at the last CRC meeting you know we're moving through this we're looking at for this portion of our thing um what you guys came up with because I know you guys talked about your own priorities so we we looked at that we looked at the planning department's priorities because they had their own and we looked at the counselor's priorities and we're we're still in discussions as to how to sadly another same word prioritize all of that um but but the things that came up was talking to the planning department as to you know COVID and responses there and what can get done um we haven't in CRC um and I don't think you know there's there's some things we would like to I know there are CRC members that would like to get really involved in the weeds on say language um but but most of our discussions have centered more around topics and so I think that's where the the collaboration between the planning board and CRC can probably best happen again it's a work in progress though where the planning boards probably much better suited for specific language um and CRC and the counselors are probably better suited for a little bit more of the priorities potentially and that's not to say that the planning board can't find a priority and say hey we really need to fix this you know um but um you know giving that guidance that the planning department wanted that's that's where we're focused right now and some of that conversation is focusing around um time restraints you know how much time it will take to get to some of these things that have been mentioned there was a list of let me see it's you know from the planning department it was a list of about nine things from the planning board you guys had three very broad things and the council had um three six ten items and there was not a huge amount of overlap between them there were some and so what what the CRC is now looking at um is trying to balance um the the time commitment between all of these um the sort of the bang for your buck um what are the most needed ones that would produce the best outcomes quickly um I mean I mean I got got a question sure because um so the written sort of comments that were presented were by the non-CRC members of town council and then I'm just wondering if there was a written CRC you know comments other than that that were provided during that uh September 15th they were provided during that meeting and then the document was updated for the September 29th CRC meeting which I can send to the whole plant well I can send to Chris to distribute to the planning board or you Jack to distribute to the planning board that's where we added the CRC priorities and then I did a summary that sort of um compiled the most between ever the ten councillors that have have priorities on there how many times was it mentioned for each councillor um and some were mentioned and and I had a threshold of three um if it was mentioned at least three times it ended up on this list of ten so we're we're now to the stage where we want to look at time commitment cost to get stuff done you know things that the planning department mentioned were things like a signed bylaw that will likely need um uh consultants versus something that maybe is a two or three line I'm not saying anything is as easy as two or three lines but something that might just be a small section that requires a couple of different things that don't need consultants and might only take a month to to prepare um or is almost already prepared as some of the planning department as Chris said at some of the meetings balancing all of that and seeing which ones are most needed to get Amherst out of COVID and position Amherst coming out of COVID pretty well so that's where we are at CRC we're not talking about you know there were some things that were specific but from counselor perspectives there was some specifics but most of it was like inclusionary zoning something you know or parking regulations something um you know there was a review the zoning map there wasn't this part needs changed or this one does it was much more from the counselors of broad based hey we think there's a problem but um what I see happening is if we get those priorities in some sort of order um it goes to the town council but then as the planning department's working on it the CRC will get some of that update but I am hoping that the planning board gets a whole lot of input into that and is probably one of the ones that's driving a lot of that revision more than potentially the CRC um because for something like zoning map you have a lot better idea than we as counselors do on on the uses that are coming or might be coming or might be needed or any changes that would make more sense than we as counselors may have so we would have some input but I think it would be mostly um from that point driven in terms of specific language through the planning board of course it'll be our first time going through a lot of this um from this stage so it's it's going to be sort of a trial and error on that I think so so your September 29th meeting is um that kind of pulled together the CRC topics in addition to the others is that in the minutes or it's in the document from the packet I basically updated the compiled document with the CRC items and added a summary Chris did we do we have that or do you know if you sent that out I missed it I received a document from Mandy Jo last week or maybe it was the beginning of this week um asking me to look at it and talk about um how we could work on these things going forward and I'm not sure if that's the document that Mandy Jo is referring to I will send you the actual word document that was a lot longer I included just the 10 items that had three or more counselors yeah okay all right good great thank you um Janet I I completely appreciate the difficulty of what you're doing and trying to sort this out between um all these entities is there some point where you're going to go to the public and sort of say here's what we're working on here's our ideas of priorities what do you think kind of is there is there a public outreach point because I know there's always public comment at meetings but I also know you know a lot of times we all operate in a little bit of obscurity and I just wondered is there like a time for going to the public and saying you know like I appreciate the idea of like okay you know we know we hope COVID will end and that you know we need to be in good position to keep moving forward or to you know help businesses or resuscitate them as it as it is but is there a time that you're going to go to the public with this package and say what do you think so CRC has not discussed that part specifically um certainly when it goes to the council um that that would certainly be another time for the public to be involved we have public comment at every meeting right now we're still in an information gathering stage without even trying to prioritize this over that that's the sort of document Chris was just referencing in terms of you know the next time we we have Chris and Rob at our meeting it will be just gathering more information things like how long would inclusionary zoning take what is a time frame on the recodification and if we're working on recodification where's where's the time what time is available to work on other things and how long might it take and so that's not something you know that's something where we're still trying to gather information before we try and say based on all of that where do we think we need to put the time from staff time or consultant time for the next year or three months and I think it's at that point that CRC um would likely try to get the word out a little bit better um I don't know whether we would do special meetings or anything I can't answer that right now because that would be a CRC decision as a whole um but it could be sort of it one of the things might be just um more dedicated time during a CRC meeting or changing the time of a CRC meeting because we know two to four is not always good for public participation um so we might look at a different time when we're getting to that specific type of discussion I don't expect that to happen till um probably mid to late November because we won't hear from uh Chris and Rob again until late October thank you um Tom may I just make a note excuse me Tom Chris excuse me I just wanted to announce that Johanna has arrived oh hi Johanna 752 hi everyone welcome so uh Tom yeah um Mandy Jo and Dave thanks for coming I think one of the questions I was having sort of reading through a bunch of these documents and the last few conversations again I'm new to the planning board um I'm still kind of learning some of this process but I don't know the 10 items that percolated to the top of your priorities but I'm wondering how those uh overlay with the master plan and whether the work going forward to realize these things is a burden whose burden that is and whether or not a master plan implementation committee is part of enacting some of these things so I guess I'm just curious where the where all those principles from the master plan go in relationship to the priorities set by CRC so so we haven't set priorities yet I will I don't want to get people confused on that there is a compiled list of um I'll read briefly through them for example on that when we surveyed all the counselors seven counselors mentioned something like design guidelines or form-based code either in specific parts of town or all over town or or things like that um another seven counselors talked about expanding the types of housing permitted throughout town whether it be ad use or duplexes or triplexes uh four counselors talked about incorporating climate action goals into land use permitting standards and zoning and building requirements four counselors talked about dealing with this design review board um interesting to note on that one there were opposite opposite desires on what to do with the design review board four counselors talked about the bl district requirements three apartment and mixed use building regulations um three talked about the bg district setbacks and heights three talked about inclusionary zoning three talked about parking regulations for new developments and another three talked about reviewing the zoning map so certainly a number of those directly relate to the master plan and its implementation um others maybe not as much um because the master plan was adopted 10 years ago and the climate action goals for example are a bit newer than that um so aren't necessarily fully addressed in the master plan um and so you know I I think that will be looked at as we look at the priorities um along with the how much time things and all will take god yeah I mean you could say that the in terms of the preview of the planning board the master plan is one thing but the zoning bylaws is an entirely different thing and you know planning board really need to be you know more hands-on with the master plan aspect of things and and that's a good question of how that merges uh you know with the zoning bylaw you know changes so I can say the the discussion at both the september 15th meeting that was attended by 10 counselors and at the september 29th meeting did mention which you know did talk about the the connection between the priorities and the master plan knowing that many of these are connected directly to master plan goals and um you know I guess policies or or things I forget the term terminology but what could be implemented to get to the goals of the master plan yes and in that vein I think we do have an item in much yes so in our in our old business D the planning boards is going to make a general recommend recommendation to the town council that's a different different item there so Maria please thank you manager for that that summary that really helps I now understand what you're doing so that's really helpful basically you're still gathering information to figure out where the priorities are going to be so for now you don't really need anything from the planning board as far as throwing more things at you it's more about you're just updating us on where you are and figuring out next you know I I was asked to update we are always happy you know we got the three items from the planning board that were very generalized um I will get the the compiled document from um from the council to chris for distribution and you know one thing I would say as chair is if planning board wants to look at those 10 that had at least three counselors mentioned them and say oh hey here's the like four or three or two of these 10 that we would love to see you know we would certainly take all of that into account as we're trying to gather information because it's all part of the gathering um and all so I I I would say if you if you've got time in a meeting and that's something you desire we would definitely love to hear which of those you are we did note in the CRC that the council's um sort of ideas about what's important in zoning revisions did not overlap much with the planning department's ideas um and and and we recognize that's probably because of the different roles we play um and so one of the things we know we have to be careful of is not to you know not to weigh say they came from counselors so they're more important than what came from the planning board or vice versa we're we're that's why we're still gathering information about timing and and all of that well yeah I would be interested in seeing both the CRC that the big compiled town council list as well as the planning department's list and then maybe there's a future planning board meeting where we can discuss those however many it is and just sort of distill what we think um are our sort of priorities to share because I think that um part of my motivation to to to put the ZSC on hiatus was that I was hoping the planning board members would actually give input because I think there's a lot of really good collective knowledge and backgrounds from the new members and existing members to all throw in their two cents rather than have yet another small group report to a bigger group report to another group so yeah I think that I'd be yeah I'd be a person I would take time out to look through all the various documents and um thank you for coming and clearing this up for us because we were kind of in a cloud like what's going on with everybody but um this has been really helpful so thanks thanks Maria uh Doug yeah I guess um I I would like to know if Mandy feels like um when priorities come from the CRC or town council whether in fact not it will not only be you should work on this particular subject but an indication of which way you want us to head on that subject because um you know the master plan has some conflicting objectives in it uh Mandy mentioned that you know more than one town counselor when they talked about the same subject they had different views about it and even within the planning board there are different views about uh particular subjects so um I guess my I'm I'm I'm urging Mandy to help corral the uh the horses such that we know which way we're all going to go rather than let's just all on the planning board uh talk about this particular subject and depending on which way we go it could be you know more or less acceptable to town council and the public thank you um yeah so um I I agree that that I I think that will happen uh we haven't necessarily we've tried to keep it to more general for now um and but we did get when when you see the document or if you've seen the the previous one the before CRC's priorities were in there there was a lot of specificity and so there's there's a lot of information there and yeah so something like design review board that got four or five when looking at priorities knowing that some of those completely conflicted with each other um will be part of a discussion as to whether that should be a prioritized item because you know for anything to pass it needs nine votes on a council and so CRC I think will be looking at is this something that you know even if there's conflicting views that we think between planning boards discussion and it coming to CRC and it then going to a council that we can find some sort of agreement to get to nine votes to get it passed because I I do believe in CRC at least there's not a desire to send um planning board CRC and planning staff working on something that there's no hope of getting to nine that there's only five or six or seven um that that might support one direction and five or six or seven that would support going the other direction so I think that those discussions will come um they will likely more come towards the latter part again in November when maybe we go out to the public too um instead of when we're just trying to gather information um but I do think it'll come because if if we seven people mentioned design guidelines if we don't know what we want and four want you know a certain type and four want something else and three want something else we might not ever get to nine if it really is opposites um so so we'll need discussed but we're not there yet I'd like to hear from Dave thank you sure I'll be very brief I think this has been a great conversation and and I think this is you know I hope kind of exemplifies where we want to go I think I I can't tell you how many meetings I've been at over the last couple of years regarding master plan and zoning um and you know what what I think of working from the staff standpoint is really working with our council members working with the committees working with the planning board in a collaborative cooperative way um you know we're still we're all still getting to know this new form of government and I think this conversation um you know hopefully will form the basis for you know moving forward on zoning we know the relationship between zoning and and master plan helping to implement those broad goals and objectives that are outlined in the master plan you know we've had a lot of discussions over the last couple of months maybe maybe a year about the master plan and I think there's a general agreement that I hope that the master plan is in in pretty good shape and the hope is that we can move forward with zoning and I guess uh and zoning reform I guess I just wanted to kind of put a put a you know a bold point on moving forward with zoning because I think as we come out of the pandemic we need to be ready to be responsive on on climate on um on um working with our businesses working with our landowners working with on affordable housing and right now our zoning is really doesn't allow us to be flexible to be responsive in a lot of different ways so you know I think we all feel that urgency but I think 2021 and beyond um you know I meet with the bid and chamber with the town manager and others weekly and the urgency of of being being bold and and articulating where we want to be as a community when we come out of this pandemic and beyond is it's palpable on a lot of these calls I want to put my my my management hat on for a minute um and I don't want to get a sidetracked on the zoning subcommittee but I think I've been pretty clear that um I I am not supportive of of of having a zoning subcommittee and it's really from a management standpoint um I know how hard Chris Brestrup works I know how many committees and boards she supports and she is now working obviously closely with the planning board very closely with the the the CRC and a number of other committees and boards I really would would rather see close collaboration between you all as the planning board and the CRC than a subcommittee of you so I'll just put that out there I don't want to get you sidetracked I think we ought to try this system that that this uh this new way of of moving forward that the CRC and you all are talking about see how it works we can tweak it um I we can tweak it and adjust it and see how it goes um but I think we need to be bold and we need to be feel a sense of urgency because um it just it is uh urgent that we move forward on on all of these things we've heard so much about affordable housing uh the ECAC is working to articulate and has has articulated many goals for us as a community with regard to energy and climate and I think um you know uh we need to get moving and 2021 is a great time to do it so um I would advocate that we work together now and if we need the zoning subcommittee we can always resurrect it um later so thanks thanks Dave yeah I would just like that the meeting uh September 15th what struck me was the examples that were brought up how um you know many of the structures would not be able to be built in kind whether they'd be you know Steve Shriver's house um or something in the BL and and the rigidity of our our zoning bylaws when we have this housing crisis in town as I saw I read that there's a further decline in our school uh you know population I think a 3% decrease from this year you know from last you know maybe some of the charter schools are part of that but overall it's like a 20% decline in 10 years yeah so we have a lot of a lot of issues a lot of heavy lifting to solve and I think all of us on the planning board want to help um but one of the questions I have is like in terms of the process you take chunks you know you got a section that's going to be redone and will how is the whole change going to be implemented is it is it going to be we approve you know section by section but it's only in approved a name and then the entirety of the zoning bylaws will be approved by town council as as a as an entire document or you know how does it was that way too far down the road Mandy? I think that might be way too far down the road. What I was going to say is um I think there's there's a limit to the chunks um except you know when when the council came into being and the bylaw review committee reviewed both all of the general bylaws for conformance with the new charter and the zoning bylaws we did do a complete repeal and replace but that was for a specific purpose not all of us even read all 128 pages I will tell you that right now um or however many hundreds of pages the zoning bylaw is um there weren't any major substantive changes to that other than making short conformed with the charter and so when we're talking about the recodification if it really is just renumbering and that and some small fixes that can really be pointed out and explained then maybe that can be the huge chunk all at once um but anything else is probably in much smaller chunks but I I think that's something that the planning department will have to advise frankly both you guys and us on and you guys might have to advise us on on what you think is is a reasonable amount of chunk to take at a time um in terms of because you know all we've heard from see it from planning department is they're all interrelated so there's there's only you know you can't get too small um but at some point it's going to be too big and so I think that's too far down the line and it will depend on what's going on I know Maria probably could speak to this but you know the whole footnote I mean uh it's just like there's so many artifacts that that you know that hang out there because one change influences another one that wasn't spotted and but anyway Chris um and then Janet after Chris I just wanted to say I think that we're going to be working on two tracks and we're going to be working on the one track with the building commissioner um recodifying the bylaw and changing the numbering and changing you know the things that are really um that make the bylaw very difficult to work with on a day-to-day basis and then we're going to be working on another track where we're looking at substantive issues and I can think of you know many of them have been mentioned tonight like um signs or parking or flood maps and I just went to a webinar today attended a webinar about um how to write a zoning bylaw that relates to these new flood maps and it was really interesting and it's a lot less complicated and onerous than I imagined it would be but my point about this is that that would be a chunk that we could bring to CRC and town council to say look here's um a chapter of the zoning bylaw that we think is potentially ready to go and not the rest of the uh codification has to be done in order to accommodate that that piece so that's um just to say and to illustrate that we're really going to have to be working on two tracks on these um on these changes thank you uh jenna um I actually have two questions um one of them is about the ECAC and I can never remember what that stands for the energy energy and climate action committee thank you and I know that they were sort of um hiring a consultant they're doing their own process and hiring a consultant and they were talking about getting zoning bylaw changes or recommendations to us like last May and obviously no one would hold them to it given what's happened um this year does anyone have a sense of when they're going to come up with recommendations and how specific they are that's that's my first question and my other one is completely unrelated Chris can you answer that um well Dave may be the best person to answer that because um Stephanie Ciccarello works for him but she also communicates with me and she's been working with ECAC on this process I believe they're planning to have something finished by the end of the year they have a consultant that they've been working with and they're making progress um whether their um ideas are going to be threaded throughout the bylaw or whether there's going to be a section of the bylaw that deals with the things that they want to focus on I really don't know because I don't know enough about their specific work but they are continuing to work and they're making good progress and they should be done in a few months okay if I could just add you know I think they're a few months is the climate action plan they got the goals they've got someone to be and they're working on a full plan which would be the plan to get us to meet the goals within the timeframe that the goals have been adopted for it is my understanding when I was um dealing with compiling council priorities I also spoke with the vice chair or communicated with the vice chair of the energy and climate action committee and so it's my understanding that that committee is also talking about bylaw you know zoning types of changes um I don't know how specific those changes are um or whether they will be things like thread you know building standards or adopt I think Massachusetts has its own green energy building standards it might be something like have the council adopt that that might not go into a zoning bylaw I don't know how specific they will get but I know they've been talking about um building type standards and zoning type changes that can be threaded in to help meet climate action goals and the plan itself okay okay thank you and then my second question is um it is a little bit more related is so we have the master plan and then part of the master plan is the housing production plan and the mark the housing market study and I think the transportation plan is part of the master plan is that right chris so I did some investigation recently and I discovered that the transportation plan was incorporated into the master plan by a vote of the planning board on a certain date and that there was a statement on that date that there was an intention to incorporate the housing production plan the housing market study the open space and recreation plan the valley vision plan and maybe others um and there was an intention to do that at a future date I haven't been able to track down that those things actually happen so I know for a fact that the transportation plan was incorporated and um I will have to do some more investigation but I'm I'm thinking that the planning board may need to take that action um in the future to incorporate those plans into the master plan okay and so then my now related question is do you think that the energy and climate action plan would also be incorporated into the master plan I mean depending on if we liked it and things like that is that sort of the next step that would be my recommendation but I'm not sure um how the ECAC is going to feel about that okay well I'm sorry uh I think Johanna had her you know I lost my participant screen there but I think Johanna first of all all apologies for being wildly late tonight I'm really sorry um Chris my question well first of all I appreciate Dave's comments about kind of boldness and urgency I think there is an appetite for that um and my hope is that we know enough that we can act boldly and actually get it right um so but Chris I guess the question in my mind is the energy and climate action committee it's exciting that they're on this process it makes a ton of sense to be figuring out the plan to how to actually you know reach 100 renewable energy by 20 40 or whatever it is that we codified um and obviously there are going to be you know community changes not just kind of town government changes that need to happen in order to hit our climate goals um so but I'm a little bit concerned that we have parallel processes and that they're working on their plan and are going to make their recommendations and you know you're working on the zoning bylaw and they're kind of co-evolving separately and then the reintegration ends up being challenging because it's just not in the like their recommendations aren't in a form that's useful for you as you're working on the zoning bylaw and so I guess my question is is there how much communication has been with ECAC about the ideal form for recommendations so that they can be most useful and integrated most effectively. Mandy? You want me to answer that? I think Chris would be better. Okay all right so there there hasn't been much communication about how the ECAC would be incorporated or how their action plan would be incorporated into the zoning bylaw there has been discussion about how it could have been or would have been incorporated into the master plan and I think Janet just asked the question about you know incorporating it by a vote of the planning board so there needs to be some discussion and communication between either the planning board and ECAC or me and Stephanie to figure out you know whether what they are doing can be incorporated into the zoning bylaw it's not completely obvious to me that it can can be or should be incorporated into the zoning bylaw it may be that it's some other general bylaw that is not part of the zoning just like when we decided to adopt a zero and net zero energy for municipal buildings that is not part of the zoning bylaw so there may be things that like that that can be put into the general bylaw that don't necessarily have to be part of zoning but I'm certainly eager and willing and you know available to talk to Stephanie and perhaps I should make an appointment to talk to her about this but that that conversation hasn't happened with regard to the zoning bylaw yet I mean I would like to note that you know within our top three given we are all energy you know you know the sustainability you know very conscious of the the predicament we're in there it was not part of our top three and that you know it was more there's other bigger fish to fry in town but I do appreciate that I have an electric car and solar panels in my house and all that but no I feel I just hope I hope the you know the town council prioritizes things that are most urgent on a local level Doug yeah I was just looking at the town website and it doesn't look like ECAC has met since last April are we behind on posting the documents related to their activities or are they really have they been dormant for the last six months I can say they have been meeting um I know that much so it it must be a behind thing they they are a committee of the town council and they would be listed as a committee of the town council um no they're not a town council committee they're a committee of the town that the town council happened to form I'm sorry okay yeah I did find them on the website but you know the last agenda is from April hmm very good um any other questions for Dave or or Mandy it's 822 we're almost like two hours in here that's not bad not bad um I don't see any other hands raised so thank you very much Mandy and Dave for your time and all your work um thank you it was helpful and and uh you know more to be done like like Dave kind of sketched out there there's um gotta put our management hand or not us but someone and the planning department at the CRC has to put their management hand and just you know see how we are going to move forward and and and you know achieve the zoning bylaw changes that need to be made so thank you for having us and uh yeah there's plenty of work to be done but I think if we're all willing to roll up our sleeves a bit um it's nice to share the load and Chris is amazing and Rob Mora they're going to make a wonderful team working with you in the CRC and and I'm here to support them and you so um and it's great working with Mandy as chair of CRC so we look forward to uh many more meetings and lots of discussion of zoning thank you yes thank you thank you see you bye bye okay so we have a couple of master plan items um and I guess you know the first one is the master plan implementation committee talk about that I actually have to I guess I have that table somewhere it wasn't in our packet but maybe Chris you can speak to the to that topic that was brought up by Mike Burt whistle as if I recall you know over a month ago uh was was a good one um um chapter 10 of the master plan is the um is all about implementation and um we have been implementing the master plan over the years but we haven't been keeping very close track of it we never had the master plan implementation committee actually formed there was a kind of what should I say an aborted um effort to form it back in 2011 2013 I think I sent you paperwork on that there were communications between the select board and the planning board about it um but there weren't any volunteers I think there was uh the way the charge of the master plan implementation committee read was that there was going to be one member from the um planning board did I send you those documents I think I did I think I yes the letter I have them to Chris yeah a letter from David Weber and a charge and um in any event uh it never actually got established and so um the planning board you know is in charge of the master plan the planning board could set up its own master plan implementation committee if it wanted to and start taking a close look at the implementation matrix and see which things have been accomplished in which things haven't been accomplished and then decide which things that the planning board would like to move forward with that I would be happy to work with them um anybody who's interested in being part of that I don't think it would be terribly difficult to try to track um what's what's happened and what still needs to happen um it's not a committee that is tasked with making things happen it's really a committee that's tasked with tracking and reporting on um on how the master plan is being implemented so I encourage you to look at the charge and then um think about whether you would like to establish a master plan implementation and I guess it would be the subcommittee a subcommittee of the planning board um which could meet you know periodically to talk about the implementation of the master plan is that something that interests members of the uh of the board I think Janet was the one who really brought this up Janet and um Michael Burt whistle yeah I'm I'm just looking at the master plan it's check I'm gonna pull it out and uh and it's okay I lost my participant screen here uh Andrew thanks jack um I I do have an interest um I am curious so when you mentioned that it's our choice whether or not implemented is it is it really our choice like I is it really our choice or is this something that we're just um the responsibility that we've we fail to do and we really need to set this up I think it was really a responsibility that fell through the cracks of the select board um the select board had many things on its plate and it never actually got around to establishing the master plan implementation committee as it was envisioned by the master plan document and so um I don't know if the town council would like to take this on I have the sense that it's probably and you might have a different feeling about it but I have a sense it's probably lower down on the on this priority list for the town council given all the other things that they're working on so bringing this to them may not make sense it may make more sense for the planning board to establish its own subcommittee and start um thinking about this and figuring out what's been what's happened and what hasn't happened so I wouldn't put it on the on the responsibility of the planning board that this didn't happen because it was really a select board that was supposed to appoint people there was supposed to have been one planning board volunteer and there was no planning board volunteer so um anyway that's that's kind of my point of view thank you um oh sorry Andrew you have more oh no I deferred it okay so it seems like um you know this this committee was envisioned as tracking steps that were accomplished toward the toward the uh implementation of the master plan but also doing a fair amount of public outreach um and it does seem like if you know whether it originates with us or with CRC or town council I think the conversation about zoning is likely to go better if there's wider public awareness of what the master plan calls for um so I think it would probably be beneficial if we somehow did enable that public outreach to happen and to raise the level of conversation about it in town I think many people haven't read the master plan many people don't know what it says and um think that it's the same as zoning so it would be a good idea to have some sort of public outreach and conversation about the master plan so if we if we had public outreach um would that be led by the planning board uh or the planning board uh subcommittee or would it be what level of support would the planning department be able to bring to a series of public meetings presenting what the master plan showed I mean are we really creating another management problem for our limited staff but it looks like that this the committee has stated on uh page 10.4 is it's a it's not the planning board it's a it's a mixture of it's under our purview but it's just it's just an ad hoc board created by the town manager but what do you think but there still needs to be some level of support in putting together presentations or uh you know somebody's got to do the work behind the scenes before the meeting that's all I really right and we know planning department is a little bit on their heels with a lot of heavy lifting COVID and zoning bylaw changes and and what else but um well depends on how much public input we're trying to achieve and you know there are probably different levels of intensity about this but one one thing is sure people don't really know which parts of the master plan have been implemented in which parts haven't been so that seems to be a fairly straightforward thing that the planning board could do with a subcommittee that wouldn't require a lot of work I agreed that holding public forums to inform members of the public about the master plan that would be work but that could be spread out over time um so I think what I'm thinking of is less intense than say the zoning subcommittee which is writing zoning it's more checkbox have we done this have we done this no we haven't done that we better figure out how we're going to do that or just meeting with the public to talk about what's in the master plan which I don't think is that hard because it's not creating something new it's already there so um it's it seems to me that that's such a committee if it is comprised of you know a planning board member a town council member members of the general public that it it could be quite useful because I from my observation the comments and criticisms of the master plan seem to be misguided by by those that are that that are coming forward and it's almost it could almost be like an education process just to have a committee and understand what what the master plan is and its purpose so I'm wondering it could be very helpful to get everybody on the same page but it's certainly the the urgency is not there but it will never be you know a high you know highest priority with everything going on right now but Janet so um I think so I can't remember who I was talking to I think it was somebody at the metropolitan area planning council or somebody or read it somewhere that if there's not an implementation committee for a master plan the master plan will never be implemented and you can sort of see why because it's covering so many areas and it has it has a big reach but it's also when you look at the implementation strategies in the appendix they are like really specific and there's so many you probably could never do them all so without an implementation committee to be working with the different boards and committees in towns like the farm committee you know um all these different committees like you know like even if it's like hey this is your part of the master plan these are the strategies you know the community has come up with um these are things you know the master plan says you should be working on and and how how does that fit for you and what did you do this year and how does it fit the master plan and kind of reporting it seems like a very dynamic committee that could get all the wheels moving towards the goals of the master plan um so I mean I think you know I I totally understand and completely believe in the public information piece of it and the community involvement piece because unless we set the table for changes um they're never going to happen if we don't involve the public and bring them on board for ideas that we think are good or zoning changes you know there's not there's going to be opposition and there should be we should be involving our community um so I think that um you know so my focus on I was really shocked that this whole thing had gotten so developed into this this level of detail in terms of the charge seems really well crafted the idea seemed really good I always thought when I was thinking about setting up the moped I think we started talking about this like in zoning subcommittee meetings when we were looking at the master plan you know seeing the need for that I always thought like maybe there's the planning board should have like a three person committee and you know get a board of advisors like one person from the farm committee one person from um you know different committees in town as a board of advisors and all kind of start collaborating but I also I also see that this met the the idea put together by the past planning board of having a broader committee in town also seems really valuable so I'm not I'm not sure what I think we should do next but I do think if we take the master plan seriously and all the effort we need to implement it and I think the master the moped would be the way to do it and it's not like a hundred percent clear to me what the path would be but we could also look to other implementing committees and other communities to see how it worked for them too so that's a lot of comments I'm not I'm not sure what structure or what form but I was kind of really surprised and you know like pleased by seeing these pieces of paper and it's I'm sorry that it got lost in the process you know seven years ago but I think this is maybe a moment and it's kind of a moment of pause too that maybe we can talk about it and try to figure out what we want to do with it so you know the the one thing that that you didn't mention Janet is like the economic factor maybe you know bid or you know chamber represented but we have no longer an economic uh director anymore and I'm not Chris what's yeah on there because I feel like we have a huge hole in our downtown with COVID and I'm concerned who is it Jeff Kravitz so what's happening with with his with that position is it going to be filled or what what's what's going on there the town manager is taking this opportunity to kind of reevaluate what is an economic development director and exactly what would that person be asked to do if we did hire such a person to fill Jeff Kravitz's role the town manager is also struggling with budget issues right now because you know he's looking at the potential for 2022 I guess FY 22 to be you know more challenging than FY 21 is with regard to staffing etc so um you know his general uh approach in the past has been if there's an empty position you want to save money don't fill the empty position so these things are going through his mind and and the other thing is is this an appropriate time to hire an economic development director even if we had one what would he do right now he can't really go out and meet with people he can certainly have zoom meetings but it's kind of an odd time when there's a need for economic development but there's the opportunity to make it happen is very limited I would say so anyway the town manager is evaluating that position and trying to figure out what do we do with it yeah well I think we are fortunate because you know the bid is strong and we have the chamber in town I think they're both well staffed and hopefully we can it seems like they would be part of this master plan implementation committee for sure Maria um I just want to say that the 14 page implementation matrix uh as Chris said actually a lot of it has been done it's not like because there wasn't a committee nothing is getting implemented um quite a bit has actually already been accomplished and the trick I see with creating this committee right now is it will take a lot of staff time not that it shouldn't happen but that you know in order to go through that 14 page matrix and say what's been done what's not been done and if it hasn't been done how does it get done that is not like someone off the street or someone from one committee or a film from one board can answer it's the planning staff so so there's a little bit of like how do we do this right now we need a planning department staff we I love the idea of bringing more general public especially I already have some people in mind who have been in the planning board or zoning subcommittee or different parts of um volunteer work where they have historical knowledge of what's been done and they had great ideas that just haven't been implemented yet or people who have been in town meetings so there are some key people who um would be great to you know share their ideas moving forward because um we don't really you know we have sort of like small committees where people can volunteer um so this would be a great one to sort of tap into our you know sort of our community of knowledge and reach out to people with good backgrounds and as well as town council I guess it's like we're doing we're trying to dissolve one committee and create another one so I just I just want to be careful about like um creating more work that may not go anywhere I know I sound like a Debbie down I keep saying this but um maybe if it doesn't have planning staff initially and it is just a group that just sort of brainstorms about okay let's take this matrix piece by piece and think about who are the key people we could talk to you know that might be a good first step but I think to then to initially have planning staff sit down yet another meeting and talk for most of the time because they're the ones with the sort of information um I I just want to be careful about creating that committee right away when we have town council and CRC and the zoning bylaw rewrite and a few other moving parts but maybe there's a sort of a smaller working group version that is just taking this you know on their own you know got the reins just take it where it can go without too much support from planning staff maybe I don't want to speak for you Chris or Pam but I'm just I'm kind of confused you know like how we we're trying to you know focus the needs the fires put out the fires and then we're talking about this master plan committee so um so that's where I am right now I just I think it's a great idea it's a good first step I just want to be careful about creating another more workload when we have a lot of things going on right now good point Maria I mean I mean each you know committee needs it like like the the housing committee has John Hornick which he drives that and if there was a person that was available that could drive it then that would take the pressure off of the planning department for sure or other town staff that have their hands full but thank you uh Andrew oh sorry uh Chris has her hands up so oh I just wanted to say it could be arranged that the committee could meet on its own and take its own minutes and produce its own minutes and produce an agenda and we could help to post the agenda and post the minutes so we don't necessarily have to be involved we could be a resource for information um but I I agree that it's you know it's hard to think about adding another um meeting that one of us needs to attend but if planning board members are interested in this maybe they would be willing to um you know take on the responsibility for coming up with an agenda doing minutes and then we would help with the posting thank you Andrew Chris you had you had me at it's not going to be very hard and then you lost me when you said that we'd have to take minutes and do around agenda I I think what I think what Jen said what Maria said I think they summed my thoughts up perfectly I think you know from from Janet's perspective like if we're not tracking this stuff like we're just we've opened the door to to lack of accountability um I when I look at this I actually see I see a a really compelling opportunity um as a as a new board member to to essentially on board right and like to to really get very familiar with how the plan is constructed and you know what some of the historical priorities are and and how we've chosen to tackle those right like if we didn't have a plan we had some mechanism of pride like and we've accomplished some of this right um we've had some mechanism of prioritizing that whether it was by design or not so I think it's I think it's kind of a fascinating opportunity um again one that that I'd be interested in to be able to on board um but then you know when Maria brings up the point like how do you have time for this and maybe you know you answered it that that short remark I don't know how I would even begin to be able to answer some of these questions without you know calling you or another staff member for for every part because I haven't been here to to know what what that is um I will say also just you know personally I in my job I run our our program management office and so like I have an interest in kind of how we develop processes and manage those and report those and track those and I again kind of echo what Janet was saying before that if we're not if we're not tracking this it it almost seems like um you know we're negligent to is far too strong of a word but it seems like uh we're not fulfilling the the town is not fulfilling its responsibility of ensuring that we follow the plan as as we put it out there it's it's almost like it wasn't even worth putting it there if we're not going to bother to look whether and and and understand if we've if we tracked it or not in addition to not only did we check the box but did it work right like so maybe we did that thing but should we have done that thing can is there anything we could have learned from that thing that we did um is there anything that we want to roll into our thought process moving forward that might be applicable not only within the master plan but other aspects of town government um so anyway that's kind of my thoughts I I will I will say again that you know I I think that I do have some interest but but um I've more than some interest but I don't know how I'd be able to uh to to do that without a significant amount of support from from staff thanks jack thank you Andrew the really uh tied it tied it together there um uh chris so what about if something like this were established and it didn't meet twice a month you know what if it meant met once a month um and again the the board the committee took on the responsibility of creating the agenda and taking the minutes and publishing the minutes and the staff person were there to be kind of an advisor or a resource or an institutional knowledge about what has happened what hasn't happened what's worked and what hasn't worked um you know possibly that could work I mean I can imagine instead of going to tech meetings I could go to MPIC meetings once a month and that might actually be more useful because I'm not sure that I'm very useful at the tech meetings no is there a difference like instead of calling the committee kind of like calling it a task force or something that takes the pressure off the planning department at a different level that whatever it is it has to have if it's a public body it has to have um its agenda posted and it has to have minutes taken other than that you know it's really up to the members as to what they what they do or don't do um but it would put it would put more more pressure on the members to do the work rather than relying on staff if it I could be available as I said as I said as a resource to tell Andrew yes we did that back in 2015 and here's where you can go to find the information so if it's that level of involvement of staff I think that we could provide that but if we have to be you know writing reports and memos and minutes and and sort of coming up with the agenda and all of that I think that would tax us but just to be available as a resource I think that's that's probably realistic okay uh I see uh Doug and Johanna's hands up Doug so I have a question for Chris um earlier this evening I thought you said that it wouldn't be too much of a burden to go through the matrix and and indicate what has been done um if that's about it yeah I I could talk to you about it I could sit down and I could tell you as we went through the matrix oh yeah we did that we didn't do that we said we didn't want to do that so that would be something that I could do yes so if so if you and I made a made an appointment we could have that conversation and I could type it up and at the next meeting we could have that as just here's the report on what we think we is done yeah yes we could do that okay so you know as a first step without creating a new committee um you know I could I could commit to doing that with Chris over the next say six weeks and then we'd have something that we could start with and decide whether we needed a committee to uh do additional monitoring or where to go with it so I guess it seemed like that might be a first step um so that everybody can see kind of what where we stand before we figure out where to go next mm-hmm thank you Doug um that'd be great um Johanna the way I see it is there kind of two products that we're talking about one product is the formation of a committee and we think that that would have I don't know value because it would have broader stakeholder engagement those people would then be more inclined to activate their people maybe you get more information um but that would be one product the second product is yeah just the report so what Doug is saying like sit down with Chris do an interview figure out what do we do what haven't we done on the master plan and that's the other product my inclination right now is to hold off on the committee product and focus on the report product but then come up with a robust marketing plan of that product so that we get the public education benefit of it and raise the awareness of the master plan and raise awareness of um you know kind of what Amherst has done to date and what there is left to do so you know again this is me kind of as an advocate there might be stuff here that a town board wouldn't do but I'm thinking like we could do a report card we could do an op-ed in the paper we could do presentations to some of the other key committees we could actually do a video interview and put it up on social media with Chris and you know um but there are ways that we could kind of get the word out about it that um are just ample of like yeah it's marketing and less of substance or new product creation yeah it's interesting because I know Chris you you've gone through that master plan presentation but twice a year or at least once and sometimes you just got to you know take a different look at it I mean I I'm thinking of the 40 r presentation that's going to be next week and I'm like I I'm a little bit mystified of like oh my god I don't because it but changing things up like Johanna said it's public you know wants to speak and they need to get involved and it's like we really should be doing things different uh to to to uh to get people involved and and get their input and because I just very good points very good points uh Tom yeah I just wanted to say like one quick perspective on this is I feel like when we look at the master plan I think um you know I I think uh you guys for committing to working on this committee and even going through this checklist of what's been accomplished but I think that happens that there's there's something at a macro level and something at a micro level right so there's a sense that there are certain philosophies that are embedded in the master plan and that those can be enacted uh in a broader way there's a committee that's doing x y and z or vetting x y and z but then you know on some level we as a planning board maybe are more on the hook for saying here's a project coming to us and has the opportunity to potentially do x y and z can we hold that project accountable to meet certain criteria from the master plan as well so I mean I think there's a way in which doing our research and understanding what's been done is important but I also think there's a kind of um these things are happening all the time people are making changes to their own property or you know things are coming through the planning board that we can you know once we have a better understanding hold those businesses or property owners accountable to make the changes that will affect the or that will support the the master plan in a much more robust way a more cohesive way that nobody I don't we might be the only people that are looking at those things and comparing these kinds of daily actions that need to be approved with the actual guidelines of the master plan itself so anyway just just a thought that there's a macro level and a micro level and we probably want to be thinking about both of those so top can you kind of like I'm I like the terminology of the big and small that you mentioned and what are what's the macro versus the micro that your well you know like there are things like we want to maintain the character of the community and you know there's a whole set of sub lines underneath that but what is the big macro principle and how do we hold all of these different new projects accountable for maintaining the you know the quality of our community or a character of our community so I think that's a macro level principle there are micro level versions of that like does this sign adhere to x y and z principle or whatnot right so I just think I think there's minutiae that we tend to get bogged down in but I think there's a moment where we can stop and say hey does this project actually do this also right so not that kestrel trust is doing something incorrect but saying is that project does it have an opportunity provide something positive to the community based on these macro principles from the master plan can we recommend that change based on x y and z by definition with the master plan really be looking at micro or excuse me macro and the micro being more like in the zoning bylaw type in the codes and stuff like that so separating the two and being aware of it as a part of our role on the planning board and making sure you know maybe it's something again we need to do some research and have discussions to group about how we how we work through that but you know we now that we have an obligation to do it but we do have the opportunity to encourage people to you know address some of these issues in their in their individual projects again I haven't seen any come across the board that are doing that but I'm guessing that they may down the down the pipeline so anyway it's just a good distinction thank you Chris I wanted to say two things one is that I think what you're talking about is really a good preparation for starting a master plan process in 2025 or whenever the town decides to start the process it takes about five years to really do a good job on a master plan at least that's how much it took us last time and by looking at what we've got now and what we've done what we've accomplished and what we haven't accomplished I think that would sort of set the groundwork for talking about you know how do we want to approach the master plan that we need to have in place where we need to present it to town council in 2030 so that's one thing the other thing is I think that working on the zoning bylaw we're supposed to make a a statement in fact when when the planning staff writes the planning board's report to town council now it used to be to town meeting we're supposed to make a statement that what this what we're being proposed what zoning bylaw change is being proposed comports or does not is not out of conformance with the master plan it's some kind of convoluted language like that but it's essentially to say what we're proposing here is in conforming with the master plan and that's a statement that we always have to make at the at the bottom of our report so this would help us to focus on what's in the master plan when we're going through the zoning amendment changes so those are those are just the two things I wanted to say all right we're getting on nine o'clock here two and a half hours in probably should wrap this up we do need to take a vote recommending the adoption of the master plan as presented for the town council which I feel like we've already done but we have done that and I just wanted to know Mandy Joe has asked me for or no Lynn has asked me for a memo from the planning board and stating what your position is on the master plan so I gave you all an email that I had sent to Mandy Joe stating what your position was it says dear Mandy Joe at the July 1st 2020 meeting of the planning board Christine Gray Mullen moved that the planning board recommended town council that they consider adopting the approved master plan as is for now and focus the town's attention and resources on the zoning bylaw changes including establishing design guidelines and revisit the issue of the master plan at a later date David Levin steen seconded and after discussion the vote was seven to zero and supported the motion so I could send that to her I've already sent it to her is there more that you would like to say about this to include in a memo or should I work with Jack to come up with some language how do you want to handle this I mean I I feel like we've we're okay with continuance of the master plan as written knowing it needs an update um I see Janet's hand I have a very small thing addition I would just be clear about what other plans are part of the master plan like that's so I think you know if the town council decides to adopt the master plan but doesn't know that that also includes the transportation plan and anywhere from one to three other ones I think they they have to know what the what it is and so I thought I actually thought that the planning board had adopted the housing study and the market plan so I was so I'll stop saying they thought they had to find evidence of that in the um in the agendas so yeah I can look again so um or maybe talk to Rob crowner or somebody who has the memory but I think it's important just to say what the master plan is because there are like extra pieces to it some of them are quite lengthy you know but I also think the more reading and the more information is better but I think the town councilors would like to know what that means may I ask a question would you all like an opportunity to vote to incorporate these plans into the master plan um perhaps at your next meeting I mean I don't know if you've had a chance to look at these or think about them um is our next meeting prior to when town council is taking this up because I thought it was coming up pretty darn quick there's a lot to read yeah there's a lot to read so you probably don't want to do that yeah I mean I would be good with just like you know acknowledging all these other plans that they written and and and and they should you know accompany consideration when the master plan plan is is being you know reviewed and considered but yeah I think there's like a half dozen plans that that came up I mean I just from a logistical kind of standpoint I think we should recognize those and I'm sure the town council would want that as well but other than that I'll provide you with a list and links or copies yeah but in concept if we should we approve the master plan as is with the addendum of the additional plans that have been prepared by the town subsequent I would not go so far as to say that you'd want the town council to adopt those plans I think that you recognize we recognize their existence make reference to them that yeah make reference right so I'll add that language to this um you know I won't add the language to the boat but I'll say that tonight's meeting um tonight being october 7th that you um asked to have reference made to the subsequent plans that have been written is that decent is that a good yes okay and then I'll list any uh exception to that I don't know that we need to take a vote but any hands uh Doug yeah I had one little wordsmith on the email language that that Chris made bold um don't we want to recommend that town council adopt the approved master plan and not that they consider adopting it well this is the language that was given to me by Christine gray mullen that you voted on on july 1st so if you want to take another vote then that would be fine and I will take down what you want to say so I don't I don't need to trip us into a whole another you know a parliamentary process but just seemed like it's a little bit less direct than we might really have intended so if if if we're going to issue some additional statement I would take out the consider part but if we're not then that's fine I'll I'll withdraw my comment you could take a vote on a statement that the planning board recommends to town council that they adopt the approved master plan as written and recognize and refer to the additional plans that are I think the crc has has listed so do you want to take a vote on that and I don't have that list but it's just I think that's what they were looking when with when you were looking at doing the master plan update it was to incorporate the master plan with all those new plans and that just was more complicated than anyone realized but do we need to say the list of those plans um Andrew yeah I was going to ask I I don't know whether I just missed something but I I'm not sure what the other plans are that we're talking about or where to find those you know there's uh so yeah to answer your question jack I would love to spell that out specifically yeah when's your next meeting your next meeting is 14 days from today which is October 21st so you could um take another vote on October 21st you want to do that and I can have the list of subsequent plans ready by then but I was just thinking that town council is is moving before that or not I don't have my um I don't have that with me at this very moment yeah let me look at me just like I apologize if I was unprepared for this I can certainly abstain from a vote if if that's the move but I wouldn't I feel like I need to to know more about what what that is before I feel comfortable voting for it so well they're really asking for a memo so I can write the memo I can um use the words that were in this email that I sent to Mandy Joe and then I can uh report on the other plans that um have been done subsequently and I don't think the planning board needs to take a vote on that I can just report on it okay so I'm just looking at an email by Lynn and she just wanted from us a very brief report on the planning board's recommendation that to town council pass the master plan as is and suspend updates please include the date of the meeting motion the vote count and a brief summary of the discussion including any minority viewpoints that's was Lynn's email on Monday well you did take this vote on July 1st so do you want to go with that vote or that vote and I can yeah all right and I will just elaborate on it based on the minutes of July 1st how's that okay and I will run it by I guess I can send it to everybody if you want me to okay I'll do that yep they're meeting the 19th okay so so I don't know that we have time to we don't have time for another vote yeah we'll report on the vote of July 1st and flesh it out a bit more with the discussion that occurred that night how's that okay unless the um plans that have been done subsequent I think that's gonna that'll do it right do the trick yes okay um and then uh so if we can move on to oh Janet okay so we're gonna move on to discussion of minutes I do I like the revised version that that Pam or Chris came up with it seems you know more to the point and again it's it's I'm again we're trying to take a load off of of the planning department I think there's evidence due to the passage of time that the minutes are have been more of an effort than than they need to be because of the it's taking months to do that and so that discussion I brought up um the last meeting was what can we do to make the minutes you know back to where they're more summaries you don't want to skip anything but we don't want to go verbatim there's some guidelines here and again I do like what what Pam did I don't I don't know how I would quantify it or qualify you know what exactly you did different but for the September 15 minutes but we can have a discussion amongst the board in terms of what our you know targets are and goals for the minutes are so maybe we don't need to discuss everybody happy okay hey it's your hand up who Janet oh Janet sorry so my goal is to make sure we're meeting the legal requirement and so my goal would be there's enough information that somebody who was not the meeting could understand the discussion like what people said it doesn't have to be every single statement um and I did think these minutes were a little thin like you wouldn't even understand what Amherst Hill's dispute was about and so I'd hope we'd have more flesh on the bones I don't want to become like the minutes Nazi you know but I also feel like I want to make sure like pros and cons in different points of view are included and when we were reading the CRC minutes of that the meeting which we just got for the other you know that literally was I think almost verbatim what happened at that meeting because I attended that meeting and I was like wow you know like um I think it's um Athena really just typed out you know her notes and that was it and so that is very comprehensive that might be faster than a summary and sort of analyzing it so I would just ask for sort of more flesh on the bones more discussion the back and forth people's points of views but it doesn't have to be a transcript so I'm gonna leave that to Chris and Pam to kind of sort out so well the comment with the guard Amherst Hill's that's we didn't really go into because we had knowledge of the of the of the case and then trying to project whether someone reading the minutes needed more background I mean I think that's on them um and it's an example of you know just you know trying to trying to keep things simple as all but anyway Pam whatever you did I think for for the 15 notes worked and it looks like we're not really going to have much discussion on this so that's great and Janet I do appreciate your attention to detail there's I'm just just putting that out there but um Doug yeah I guess uh you know when I look at the the minutes from the CRC meeting and I look at the minutes that of our last meeting I agree with Janet they're quite different and um um so you know it sounds like Janet would prefer to have more robust uh minutes than was done for our last meeting and so I think we should actually talk a little more about that and try to give some clear direction to Chris and Pam so that we don't have to keep talking about this and you know have uh you know addendums added and and you know kind of an ongoing difference of opinion about how the minutes should read um you know I I'm fine with either format myself but I think you know I I want to be respectful of Janet's opinion and her uh you know her her perhaps her more attention to the uh the the description in the mass general laws than I would be um you know I my guess is that that Pam and Chris just want want clear direction from us on what to do so they can do it once and we can approve it and move on so I feel like at the moment we haven't given them clear direction and uh if you know if Janet has a preference for more uh meat on the bones as she put it um and nobody else has any objection then I guess we should give that direction to Pam and Chris thank you uh Andrew thanks Jack um I I I feel pretty comfortable with the minutes as they're formulated for this last go round I do though think I think the way you summarize Janet I can't remember exactly what you used about just describing the pros and cons or just the the capturing the crux of the discussion I do think that's an important part I think it can be done with brevity though um and that's ultimately what we're striving for it's just how can we how can we get to that those critical ideas and you know without the need to have a full transcript and it does seem like it seems like I didn't have any problems with with these minutes at all um but I you know I could see them perhaps going a little bit deeper from time to time but it seems like for for the the amount of materials we covered um the decisions we had the discussions we had I I feel like I was very happy with this format so yeah I mean I I I did a little bit of research and that we really are we are on our own when it comes to the exactly you know the the the the structure of the minutes and you know here we have the public body checklist for creating improving minutes and then the the MGL law minutes of meetings I mean it's there and it's like it's there's not much direction other than summarizing so um I I guess we just keep that in mind and I don't know that we can really sculpt you know the exact um you know uh architecture of the minutes but just I just feel like the planning board is is struggling with trying to get all the detail in there that they probably don't need and again there's a question of well well if you just provide a transcript maybe that's just easier and then but we have to read the darn thing and then just like watch the video um Maria um I wasn't gonna say anything because I'm so tired time on minutes but Doug all right Doug I want to say what I want to say because I can't just let the suggestion go I I think the minutes were fine I what I want to avoid is having a 20 pages of minutes that you know show up three months later I think it's really useful by that point and so I hope that Pam or Chris whoever read the minutes uh it wasn't a big burden to do this other version and um if they ever came to a lawsuit I think the video would have every single word captured so really the minutes are for um people I guess who want to summary but don't want to watch the video so I think at this point with uh all the other things going on it's a better use of time to just do them a bridge version and maybe later if you do feel like okay we gotta put more uh substance in the minutes when it's not such a hectic time fine but like many people said there is a video to get everything in case a horrible thing like a lawsuit were ever to come up but um that's my two cents I I I appreciate the shortened a bridge version so for the second time it is 9 20 I mean we can we can touch upon this you know the next meeting and we'll be looking forward to the next version of the minutes I'm and I are gonna walk a fine line right and so uh topics not reasonably anticipated 48 hours prior to the meeting for for old business none okay new business uh we have planning board officers authorization the same plans for subdivision control law you want to talk about that yeah so um every time the planning board votes in a new slate of officers um we need to send a document to the um registry of uh deeds in northampton and to the land court in boston indicating that the planning board as the whole has voted to authorize the officers to sign documents having to do with subdivision control so this would it be anything like an a and r plan or a definitive subdivision plan or a preliminary subdivision plan anything having to do with subdivision control law um we they have to have a document on uh on in their registry that says that the planning board has given authorization to the people who are signing so I would ask you to vote to um I don't know if you had those letters before you but vote to authorize um jack gempsick um Doug Marshall and Maria chow to sign um documents that fall into that category any discussion okay make a a motion to to prove uh the proposal that chris just stated yep so moved yohana okay second anyone second okay uh roll call or more discussion none okay andrew proof dog hi maria prove tom approve yohana hi janet hi and myself hi so i'm gonna need to have you some sign these so um i'll send out an email tomorrow about times when i might get together with you and i can either drive by your house which i've done in some cases and you could meet me here okay um i'll try to take care of that tomorrow but thank you for uh doing that vote andrew you have your hand up yeah just super fast like do we need wet signatures for the stuff or can we use docusign just given where we are well i think registry requires um wet signatures okay and then how about just for other like the documents we signed earlier this week is um i haven't i'd like getting out of the house but i yeah it also just seems like so i've asked the question of the town clerk and she prefers wet signatures and i haven't asked the question of the registry of deeds but they're the ones who actually get the document that you signed and then they record it give it back to the owner so i think there's still not a full acceptance we accept electronic signatures on building permit applications now which we never did before but for things that have to go to the town clerk and the registry i'm reluctant to say that that's okay we can't explore that as a possibility but i just just soon drive by your house if you know rather than yeah that makes sense anyway for the time being that's what i'll do or have ask you next time you're in town you know stop tell me when you're gonna stop by the parking lot i'm never not in town anymore so but we will explore the possibility electronic but i don't i don't know how that's gonna look so under new business topics not reasonably anticipated for the hours prior to the meeting anything else chris no no i'm sorry okay uh form a in our subdivision applications upcoming zba applications i actually reached out to the zba staff and they have a few things that are possibly brewing in the pot but nothing has been formally submitted okay uh upcoming spp spr and uh sub applications so the playing board is uh has received an application from the emily dickinson museum to do um some lighting and some pathway work and i don't know if i told you that a month ago when we met um so it's really going to be uh lighting their facade and um doing some ground lighting and also providing a pathway to connect the homestead and the evergreens and lighting along the path as well it's going to be very well i shouldn't i shouldn't prejudice you but pictures i've seen make it look good thank you um regarding uh committee and liaison reports minor valley planning commission uh we're meeting you know the general commissioners uh are meeting uh tomorrow and i i have to say monica moran i don't know if anybody knows her but she's an amherst south amherst resident but she's going to be speaking about uh domestic violence she she has a role their manager domestic violence prevention and should be interesting i know covet has not been easy on families um and there's some other economic impacts of covet we're going to talk about tomorrow on uh top 100 high crash intersections in the piner valley so you all want to know where those um there's got her driver's license her promise please tell me uh yeah so there's just you know other items too but um yeah the community preservation act committee i don't know what's the status of folks being not approved did you get your appointment letter um andrew i did none none that i have seen okay i've also not seen any activity for the actually well dug you may know but i've not seen any any activity for the c-pack um anyway so i would i would attend the meetings if i saw them but i don't recall seeing any on them right and the ad commission dug have you received any letter of appointment no i have not right and tom no okay and and then rhea and janet um zoning subcommittee which light lifting what's that a light lift right now a light lift okay so uh reported chair i just want to keep amherst hills in our in our focus winter's coming we we got i'm glad that janet brought that up but gave him a heads up a month ago but another email checking in yeah i think he had something from the um from erin um the wetlands administrator she was answering oh that right yeah that yeah what happened because i they were going to review the lot you know a few of the lots there that might be compromised due to yeah wetlands in terms of the billability she says to me that october 14th i expect to have an update on the vernal pool peer review so they've asked for a peer review on the issue of the vernal pool is it there how big is it um how many lots does it have an impact on and so after the 14th which is next wednesday we should be able to know some more about that but as i recall they they weren't the developer wasn't showing up to the conservation committee meetings i think the developer showed up last time which was on the 23rd of september okay go up and okay so they made a little progress all right so um that's all i have reported staff i don't have any report um but it certainly is exciting working here i must say there's a lot going on and uh we can adjourn oh oh maybe i do have a report and i'm not sure if i told you this but the town we planning department received uh the town received we got the money for them though um 129 000 or 130 000 for um doing various things in the downtown to support our local businesses and our local restaurants and it includes heaters for outdoor dining um it includes restriping part of the roadway it includes plantings and it's going to be really nice unfortunately we're moving into the cold season so we're not going to be able to enjoy it for that long but once the spring comes i think that outdoor dining will be a very lovely experience as a result of this and you'll probably see something in the newspaper about this in the next day or so that's from the cares act nope that's actually from the mass department of transportation if you can believe that um it's a marked streets and smart streets and shared streets or something i can't remember exactly but anyway that was something that we were very happy about and we're going to be working with the bid to um to make that reality great well thanks everyone good meeting uh and we meet what in two weeks two weeks the 21st all right thank you good good everyone have a good evening thanks thank you all night thanks pam thank you pam thank you pam