 Okay, let me just share the notes again and go into it. Okay, so let's look at the life of the Lord Jesus and typically when we look at leadership and how he modeled it. Okay, so when we look at the Lord Jesus, his life, his teachings, the way he led by example, we see that he was someone who came to serve, okay? So he brought in that very radical teaching or concept of servant leadership. So it's not about my agenda or something that I personally want for myself or to be served, but I've come to serve. And that is something which really comes through in the life and the teaching of the Lord Jesus, okay? So we look at Matthew 20, Matthew chapter 20, 25 to 28. The Lord Jesus, but Jesus called them to himself and said, you know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them. And those who are great exercise authority over them. Yet it shall not be so among you, but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant. And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave. Just as the son of man did not come to be served, but to serve and give his life a ransom for many. Okay, let's read the next scripture also, John chapter 13, 12 to 15. So when he had washed their feet, taken his garments and sat down again, he said to them, do you know what I've done to you? You call me teacher and Lord, and you say, well, for so I am. If I then your teacher and Lord have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example that you should do as I have done to you. So literally and symbolically, the Lord Jesus conveying that all important truth that he has come to serve. He is the leader. He is Lord and master. He is the teacher. But he sets that example by this act of washing the disciples feet and stating that this is an example. So as I have done, so you should do also. So he modeled servant leadership to serve. So let's never forget that and implement that work that out in our roles as leaders, as spiritual leaders. Well, it could be that well, culturally or even in a Christian circles, church circles, the trend could be something else, right? The trend could be something else. The trend could be to, I don't know, not really do this, but we see that spiritually. This is what, if we want to follow the Lord and if we are called to lead like he leads, he continues to lead, then we are called to do this. But I think the struggle is always between doing it right. Now, we have roles, we have responsibilities, okay? Maybe in a formal setting, you have a role as a leader, you have a responsibility as a leader, maybe as a, let's say, as a CEO, you have a role, you have a responsibility, you have certain things defined, okay? This is what you need to do. And so how can you serve from that role? So that's the thing, right? With that role, how can you serve others? How can you lead like Jesus, okay? Or maybe your role is something else, but in that role, how can you be, how can you serve others? Now, that's the challenge, right? And the thing is to do it right without abdicating, without letting go of your responsibility as that CEO or as whatever, and doing it right, and doing it right. So I just wanted to maybe open it up for some thoughts from your side. How would you lead as a servant leader? How would you serve others in your role and position as a leader? How would one do it? You can just share from your maybe experience or from your learnings and maybe you have some questions, how does one do it? So I'll just open it up. You can spend a couple of minutes on that. Anyone? Yes, sir. I think I can, I've got an example. Yeah, go ahead, man. Got an example, but something to say. Thank you, Pastor. Since 2020, we've been working with a group of volunteers to just to run things that's our local church. And I found that's the best way to lead the group and the best way to get the results and the way that is profitable for everyone of us is to have to set up a goal or to have a target and then allow people to work in the best way they know how. Because if we try to impose our opinion and our ways of doing things, we end up creating conflict and things don't get done. Don't get done. So that's one. And the second one is creating an environment or preparing as a servant leader. So you could go before everyone, you prepare the way. If there's things that need to be done so that other people can come and do their work, you do that beforehand. So it's like you save them in order for them to come and save to do their job. Thanks. Thank you, Mangi. By serving and being an example of servant leadership, by being an example, by being accountable and diligent in our activities, okay? By being accountable, by being a person of integrity and being diligent in our activities, yeah. But typically with regard to servant leadership, yeah, I guess all this would apply. Like Mangi was saying, to prepare the way, meaning I think that's something what Kennedy is also sharing. Being diligent, being an example of servant leadership what Anita is sharing, shared here. Yeah, one of the things is that, okay, what has God graced you with? Okay, is it maybe the experience, the knowledge, the gifting? To think how can I use that to serve this person, right? So typically I'm using the word serve, you know, how can I serve this person? So it could be to maybe equip that person, maybe train that person, maybe impart some skill into that person, you know, even in doing that, you're actually serving, right? You're serving that person, and it's taking something out of you, right? And especially if it is not something to do with, it's something to do with outside of, you know, your work environment, or to, which would actually require going out of the way to bring some learning, to bring some training into that person's life, and that would be a great way of serving that person as a leader, right? Maybe you notice some things that are, that the person is struggling with, right? That the person has challenges. So you know that the expectation is that the person needs to deliver, let's say deliver on time, deliver effectively, you know, deliver a piece of work, you know, do something. But you see the challenges, and maybe that person is not able to see those challenges themselves. And so to bring in that learning, to bring in that skill, to maybe to bring in that equipment, you know, that YouTube video, that resource that would, you know, help that person overcome and go beyond their challenges. Okay, so we have Beth sharing something here regarding servant leadership. Some people respond really well and step up when they see servant leadership and they follow in the same heart. But some just sit and watch and allow the leader to do it all, even if they are given a role, they will just do the bare bones to accomplish and usually leave by asking others to serve. Okay, so how does one mentor such people? Yeah, so yeah, so one is, I think the first step is to clearly define those roles, you know, even in a setting like a church or maybe in a volunteering kind of a, you know, situation. Let's say, you know, there are volunteers to define that, to clearly define that and say, okay, this is a role that this is the role that this particular task or this task requires this, okay? It could be to show up on time, it could be to carry these 10 things that this responsibility requires and to do it well. So it's basically a description of that task to ensure that the person or each person understands that. And, you know, as a servant leader, well, you know, it's like this, we are not, you know, the mistakes, I think many times we make, you know, others could also share. The mistakes sometimes we make is that we, you know, completely take over that other person's role. The person already has a role, already has a task defined. We do it for them, not just once, but consistently. You know, every time that person slacks off, he step in and do it because the task needs to be done and not really address or bring in correction, you know, not really address and say, okay, this is where this is the standard, but it's not been met. You know, can we talk about why it has not been met, right? So if we step in and rescue that person, well, once or twice is fine, right? So that person's unable to do it, you step in and you do it. What if the person like you described that, you know, if it's more to do with attitude and not really, you know, about skill or ability, it's not about ability or inability, but it's really attitude. Then that, addressing that is also serving, you know, being a servant leader, you know, like let's say, you know, you're a CEO and the toiletist needs cleaning. Well, as a servant leader, we should not hesitate to take the mop and clean, you know. Okay, go there and then it needs cleaning. I'll do it, no problem. You know, I don't see people around. The person who's supposed to do it is maybe not showed up today. No, I just roll up the sleeves and say, okay, let's get it done. Okay, but if that becomes a pattern, then we are, it is actually, you know, we're not really fulfilling our role. That CEO is not really fulfilling the role because the CEO also needs to, you know, see that everything is functioning well. The overall, you know, the organization is operating well. So, which means that this person who's tasked with this particular responsibility, who's getting paid for this particular responsibility is not doing it, you know, it becomes a pattern. So, in that sense, why, you know, is it inability for some particular reason? Is it attitude, right? So, servant leadership is really to help that person out in that way, right? If it's attitude, well, fixing attitude is a lot challenging, a lot difficult than fixing the, you know, the skill. Yeah, so mentoring such people would mean that one has to, you know, look at that. Look at that problem and say, and have a talk and say, this is a problem. This is not done and it needs to be done. Yeah, I hope that helps that. Another question from Kennedy. What did you take on churches that have electoral colleges which are time ushers and leaders who have some character flaws, hence leading to guru mentality? Okay, so that model in a church governance, sorry, or a church structure which has a leader, yeah, that's difficult, isn't it? Yeah, so one has to really pray. One has to pray for the second in position to that leader, that second in command or second in position will be able to bring in, you know, bring in council, address character flaws, et cetera. Yeah, I see your point, Kennedy. It's not a, you know, it's not a packed solution, right? It's not an easy thing, it takes time and effort and sometimes it's not solved. Till the next election, right? Till that leader is replaced, it's not solved. But I'm sure there, you know, a church that has this kind of a structure, hopefully we'll also have some process to address the character flaws of the leaders, right? Some characters, some forum where these flaws can be mentioned, addressed, some accountability process maybe, I don't know. If that process is there, then that process can be followed. Okay, so addressing Beth's question, I was just thinking, like more from a volunteer kind of thing, so Tarun, if you're there, I mean, if you're, if you can, if did you face any such thing when it comes to a volunteer kind of thing? You know, in people, facing, yeah, that kind of. Reading the question, I'm sorry. Yeah, so Beth's question is like, you know, people who don't actually step up and do it and, okay, who sees the leader as being a servant leader and then I love that person to just carry out what they're doing. So I was just telling Beth that, yeah, one thing is to address the problem to say that this is the expectation, this needs to be done. But, you know, from a church, volunteering kind of environment, which you've been, you know, in for many years. So I just wanted to know. In fact, it's very unusual when it comes to volunteering because they want to volunteer, come and serve, they either serve being there or they are not there. But it happens in a corporate setting that if you are really playing the servant leader and you're taking up someone's role and doing that may not be a true servant leadership and what happens sometimes they just let go of the responsibilities and just live on being there. So there's a management formula that, you know, people typically use in the corporate leadership, they call it setting up for failure. Like you take away all the responsibilities and then make that role obsolete. And then they are no more in the organization. So that's a hard way of doing it. But otherwise the best way is like to check what they are actually motivated for and design some objectives that are aligned with their motivation as well. So that they get involved. The reason why they are not getting involved might be because they are into something else and they're in the wrong place. So redirect them to the right place. Yeah, thank you. I, yeah, that was helpful. I hope that helped Beth, you know. Okay, here's Sam shared something and also asked a question I think. Servant is someone who follows orders, directions and a leader is someone who orders or gives directions. The word servant leader is in some way an oxymoron and might be confusing, but I also see the word being misused. It's one thing to say on a servant leader and another to be one. But largely what is the true definition of a servant leader and how is it different from the true meaning of the word leader? Where does one draw a line of becoming a servant leader and just a leader? Well, yeah, Sam, so okay, we'll come back to Beth. Beth, you're responding to what Sam has written, I guess. A scenario of servant leader in our setting. The servant leader decides what to do, makes and orders, but he also might help out with following the order with the right attitude. Okay, okay, one of the thing is that, you know, the servant leader is not self-serving. You know, the servant leader is not feeding one's ego. A servant leader is not feeding one's position or, you know, bringing oneself to prominence. So a servant leader is not doing anything. A servant leader is an enabler, right? Enabler, being an influencer for good is also an enabler. So it means you empower the person, right? Now, this is theory, but I know that when it comes to actual work on the ground, you know, it's not a smooth sale, right? But the thing is this, that one is an enabler, enable the person to be able to do even better, go even further, right? And we see all this in a servant leader. But the thing is, a leader with a servant heart, you know, is what the Lord Jesus modeled for us. A leader with a servant, everywhere he went, he taught, he guided, he directed, but he also, you know, he just gave himself up for the cause of the kingdom. He gave himself, he was moved with compassion, he served, you know, physically it was draining, but he served and he helped people overcome, right? When we see overcoming sin, overcoming the oppression of Satan, overcoming, you know, all kinds of physical infirmities and sicknesses and so on. So he served in that sense, right? So we can draw from that, right? And so, yeah, so to respond to your question, Sand, you know, I think when we kind of differentiate and when we say a leader is someone who orders or gives direction, you know, I think we need to look at it in the right way in the sense, you know, a servant leader would also require to give directions, right? A servant leader is also required to give some mandates, to give some orders and say, okay, no, we will not do that, or yes, we will do it, right? So it's not two different things, right? A leader doing something and a servant leader, a servant leader, if you look at the Lord Jesus, you know, we will go now, you know, you go prepare. This is what we are going to do, you know, prepare the room, you will find this and he didn't think twice about, you know, telling Peter, Peter, go, you put in that hook in the water and you will find the fish, you pay the tax. Yeah, Rupa, just in a minute. So there's no difference there, right? So a servant leader is also, maybe, so sometimes we could be uncomfortable saying, you know, how can I ask that person to do something? How can I direct that person to do something? Well, it's fine, it's absolutely okay, you know, or even how can I correct that person? Well, as a servant leader, we don't hold back from any of these things, right? So a servant leader, but however, I think this is helpful, is not self-serving, okay? It's not feeding one's own ambitions and ego and so on. Even in the bigger picture of, you know, the organization's betterment, the organization's goals, or typically the weekly goals, or maybe sometimes daily goals, one also looks out for the welfare of the person, right? So I think that is where the servant leader differentiates oneself from a leader, like the one who said, who lords it over the people, right? Who lords it over the people, bossing over people, I say. You know, the servant leader would explain, hey, there are certain things that we need to do, why we need to do them, and go beyond it, is a compassionate leader, right? So yeah, I'll stop with that and ask Rupa, Rupa, you wanna share? Go ahead, please. Yeah, Rupa. So thank you. Most of it is, I wanted to share, it is shared by you. Only one thing I wanted to share is, it's about the heart, servant leader knows, it is his, it takes it as a privilege to serve people. And he wants the people who are under him to do it with all their heart. It's not just the ordering and getting the things done, but the people under him realizing the authority in him and respecting it and doing it with that respect and love. He's not worried about the things being done more than the attitude of the people who are under him. That's what I thought I have, the insight I got from the Lord's leadership. I'm sorry, can you repeat that, Rupa? The last thing that you said, it's not worried about- More than the, that's what I'm saying, the prioritization, more than the things being done. He wants the one who is doing it, with doing with the right attitude, giving him the Lordship and in the heart, within the heart, those who understand his Lordship and his authority over their lives and doing it willingly and happily. That's what the change the Lord brought over the disciples over the period. It's a journey, I don't say it's immediate, but it's a journey. Right. Thank you, sir. Right, thank you, thank you Rupa. Thank you. Sam, yeah, go ahead, please. Can you hear me faster? Yeah, sure, yeah. So Prasad, in fact, because it's one, so one way I'm very nice and pleased to be from his- I'm sorry, Sam, I think there's some noise. Yeah, tell me again, please. Can you hear me now? Yeah, yeah, it's clear. So Prasad, the confusion for me is like, I think something to do with trends, abilities. For example, I think one of the values, one value that I see of a leader is to be able to see the bigger picture. In one way, it's seeing the forest for the trees. You know, which way is there? So what does a tenure, where are we going as an organ? Or even anything like any project, what's the end result? Or even Jesus asking Peter to put the net down so Jesus can see something that Peter cannot. So in one way is a leader has something that probably the disciple or one who's not a leader does not have. I think the leader has the ability to see the bigger picture, see the deeper picture, see the entire truth. Whereas someone who's not in that position can only see what's in front of him. Right. So in that context, I see it more as a function. For example, in that earlier example where you gave, if the bathroom needs to be cleaned, probably and the person who was assigned to has not done it. Yes, the leader can step in, take on the attitude of a servant leader and do that. But that would not be the best use of his time. He would rather be doing something that is more aligned to his skills. Maybe he is explaining the vision to the people who need to hear it. Or is explaining the mysteries and the ones who don't have that skill that is. So each one to his calling, to his ability to his needs. So this whole, again, the whole idea of a leader trying to do everything, would that be the, yes, that would be the right attitude of a servant leader, but would that be the most effective or the best use of the leader's time? So I'm just tangling those thoughts. Yeah, so the thing is, yeah. So the thing is, again, the hard attitude is that, there's a task here. So my, I know my position. I know my position in the organization. I know, this is what I'm noticing. But I don't find this too demeaning. There's a need here and it needs to be done. Yeah, obviously, if there's something else that is pressing with regard to time and everything, I can get it done. But my perspective, my attitude is that it's not anything demeaning. So it needs to be done and there's no one around to do it. And so, as a leader, let me do it. But also, to fix the solution, to fix the problem, the solution would be to obviously see what went wrong or who is in charge for that and how they can correct it. So the best way for me to serve in that scenario is to do both. I can do this for the time being as a fix immediately. But in the long run, I would obviously, one would look at it. So yeah, so it's both and actually, right? It's not shirking away saying, hey, I'm the CEO, how can I even do this? That is not servant leadership, right? So to know what we are called to do, but also to step in and serve where required, right? Okay, so thanks, Sam, for that. Taking decisions, this is from Prabhakar, taking decisions not based on temporary solutions, but on longer permanent solutions, yeah. So that is, I think that's what we were looking at. But sometimes, we need to step in in the immediate and do it, but also, look at the permanent, longer long-term solutions, yes, very true, right? Okay, any other thoughts, any other questions on practically living out this thing as, or this, or being a servant leader practically, you know. Can I say shares, Pastor? Sure, sure, go ahead. Well, I just want to share about my church in Delhi where I was attending. The pioneer of the church, he's a senior man, 80 years old, and he would sometimes come to the church when he would be in the city. Otherwise, he would go around evangelizing. So one morning when I was, we had this church on the third floor and there was a shoe rack outside the church and inside the church service was being conducted. So morning when we were, I went up the stairs, I saw this pioneer, the person who was been pioneering this church, 80 years old, he was putting all the shoes in the rack because people had just left the shoe on the floor, not on the shelf. And they had started the service inside, they were like morning worship was going on. So I saw him doing it one by one, keeping every slipper on the shelf, then washing his hands and going in. And he didn't complain, he didn't say anything. At the end of the service, he just requested that, please make sure that next time when you come in, so this is how this example, I saw him doing it and that taught me as well as, I could feel immense respect for his leadership and he has thousands of churches in India and he chose to do that by his own hand. So that was one example I remember when we are talking about servant leadership, like he would do it first and then requested the people to follow the same. Right, thank you. Thank you for sharing that, Amin. Thank you. Yeah, so Tarun, go ahead. Tarun and after that, Chris, yeah. Okay, Pastor, just a thought, I see a series of questions from Sam on the same thought. I just wanted to add one good example of servant leadership from the industry. One is on the Toyota protection system. In fact, when Ford was really doing well in U.S. when Japanese wanted to actually compete with Ford, the Toyota protection system was entirely built on such leadership where when you walk into a Ford office, you can clearly know that there is a glass case to building which is built for leaders and the workers are separately working in a building. But if you enter a Toyota production system, you don't know who is a leader, who is a staff because everybody is in the same uniform. And oftentimes, the one who is a leader or a supervisor is the one who is more dirty than the front line because they really get in and do the work. More than just doing the work, it is the knowledge that they carry, apart from the power and authority, they also know the things inside out so much that people respect them. They are more than a head. They are more like a foundation out there. They stand and hold the entire enterprise up being there on the ground. So that actually marks is a better definition for servant leadership because it's not just doing the task but you are so knowledgeable in that that when you step in to do, they know that you know the entire intrinsics of it. I've seen a lot of very highly skilled technical support people in the corporate world, like with 40 plus certifications in technologies, they just step in when there is an issue and work on something really small, which everyone can do. And when they do that, others will see that, you know, they are humble, although they have so much power and authority. Right. Thank you. Thanks, Taran. Yeah. So Chris, yeah. Please go ahead. Yes, Foster. So I just wanted to give you also a little bit of perspective to this, you know, this phrase that, you know, we use that is used, you know, called self-serving. It's just a perspective. I think many times it is the people who have, you know, made, you know, the person who has become a lot more bigger, you know, maybe in a church or has, you know, made bigger churches, more churches. It is the people who are in that church who have made this person appear to be, you know, more self-serving. I think many a time there is also, the person is, may not have, may still be, may still be, may still be, you know, you know, have humility and, you know, exhibit that, you know, that level of humbleness and also attributed that, you know, that these are, this growth in a church has really, you know, comes from God. Because there are, I mean, I think, as I said, you know, the people themselves may have made this person much bigger and, you know, much more sort of, you know, like, you know, like a sort of, you know, like a guru or, you know, a very much... Celebrity, celebrity, can you think? Celebrity, exactly. And of course, there are some inherent risks over there, you know, the person may, may, you know, develop that sense of, you know, pride and, you know, become unapproachable also. But I think that is one part of it. The other side of it is that as people, whether in a marketplace or in a church environment, as they become more, you know, become more, I mean, strengthened in and become bigger in, you know, what they do, I don't necessarily see that, you know, that is a problem, you know. I think people in the outside world will, you know, just point out that, you know, now he's much become so much bigger, now he, you know, we don't... We think that he is, you know, he is self-suffering. But I think that that is a natural progression that has happened because of God's, you know, part in this, where he has made that person or that church much, much, much more bigger. So I think we have to be... These are things that can happen and we cannot just be judgmental and not really know what really has happened. And God's, I mean, God finally looks at the heart and, you know, some of these people may just be, you know, as, you know, maybe really doing some sort of leadership within the community and, you know, but it's viewed differently within the, within their own church and also, you know, outside world. It's just a perspective that I just wanted to bring about here. Yeah, thank you, Chris. Yeah, so, yeah, we don't know all the details. We see what is on the outside and definitely, yeah, there could be a person, could be a servant leader and probably he or she is doing their best and it can be viewed differently because of the prominence and the influence that God brings in, right? But I also want to add that, you know, as a leader, we can intentionally take some steps to protect ourselves, you know, especially when people, you know, like you said, you know, people make, people put people on pedestals or people cause that kind of a celebrity kind of, you know, thing around them and as leaders, we can intentionally take some steps, right? Whatever practical steps to really, you know, not go with that to really dismantle those things. I guess, you know, we could do that also. Yeah, but yeah, what you're saying is right. We can't be judgmental. You know, just by looking at the, you know, the things, the paraphernalia surrounding everything and today especially, you know, in today's time with media and everything, you know, you can, it can actually communicate something else but also the need for being careful in that, right? Okay. Some good thoughts. Thank you. So, so Sam's question was on, you know, certain leadership will it be bordering on micromanaging? Yeah, it can, Sam. You know, it can become that unless the leader is discerning enough to understand his or her role and also understand, you know, that certain things, I mean, understand delegation. One is, you know, one's own role and the other's role. And also when it comes to correction, when it comes to course correction, when it comes to, you know, bring in change, not really, you know, micromanage, leave room for improvement, leave room for growth. And yeah, so especially when it comes to adhering to, you know, standards and expectations and all, you know, there can be, you know, perfectionist and there can be a temptation to micromanage things and say, at each and every step. And I, you know, unknowingly, I might set the trend, you know, set the expectation also, where the person comes to me for each and everything and say, okay, is this okay, is this okay? So, yeah, it is possible, not just, you know, for any leader to be, it is possible to set that trend, but I guess we need to be intentional about not giving into that. Yeah. Leading, rather leading by example versus micromanaging. Would you like to explain that, Dharan? Yeah, I think like micromanaging is out of fear that you micromanage to ensure things are done right. But leading by example is like you step in and do things that people could follow and learn from. So you don't hesitate to step in and show things. But in micromanagement, you expect things to happen in a specific way and it goes on repetitions, but you are not stepping in. Right. Yeah, so that's the difference. Yeah, thank you. Hey, that's all we have time for today. Some great discussions. We are still on introduction, page one, but yeah, we will make progress as we go along. Yeah. Okay. Thanks, Kennedy, sharing that. Okay, so we'll wind up today's class. We'll meet again next Friday. Yeah, God bless. Have a great, for sooner than usual, really. Oh. Interaction-wise. Interaction-wise, I know, I know. Good. It is good. I learned quite a bit. Thank you so much. Thanks to all those who shared and asked questions. Thank you. Okay. Okay, see you guys. Bye-bye. God bless.