 Thank you very much all for joining us here today we're expecting some more people to trickle in but they will as as we go on. Let me introduce myself my name is Mohit Yusuf I am South Asia advisor here at USIP and I work on on Pakistan. Today's event just to give you a background USIP is an independent bipartisan institution and as we look at various issues in South Asia and specifically me in Pakistan we try and discuss various issues of intellectual but also policy importance and being an independent institution we try and put forth whichever views there are out there the whole spectrum of the views USIP being an independent thing that does not decide does not provide you any definitive words but it's panelists who come together and present their own views in their personal capacities as all of the panelists today would be doing on various issues. Today's topic Balochistan is interesting in the way that a lot is said about it but there is not enough if I may say intellectual capacity and research which has been done on this issue to understand just exactly what the ground situation is how Pakistan the province this province of Pakistan is situated and what its potential is in terms of both the region and for the state of Pakistan you know you hear often about turbulence in Balochistan nationalist movement violence and then there is also the positive aspect which is if you really want to see South Asia stabilize there is the energy corridor there is tremendous economic potential tying Afghanistan to Pakistan to India to perhaps even further east and so there are these you know two poles of visions and views for Balochistan ultimately as USIP as we see everything from a conflict resolution lens and the question becomes how do you bring peace to a region which has over one-fifth of the world's population how do you see people in the region grow and states prosper so with that background let me briefly introduce the panel to you we are going to have four speakers each speaking for about 10 to 12 minutes and then we'll open it up for questions our first speaker Sillig Harrison would unfortunately have to leave shortly after he speaks but the other three will be there to the end to answer questions let me also very briefly introduce all four of them in the beginning there are bios outside so I wouldn't go into the complete details but just to give everybody a sense not that any of them need any introduction Mrs. Sillig Harrison is the director of the Asia program at the Center for International Policy and the senior scholar at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars he specialized in South Asia and East Asia and has been working on the region for 50 years first as a journalist and also as a scholar and is an author of at least five books and he's worked on Balochistan extensively. Professor Marvin Weinborn and I do this in no particular order is a professor emeritus of political science at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign where he had a long and distinguished career as a professor and is also scholar in residence at the Middle East Institute previously worked at the State Department as well and if anybody studies South Asia especially Pakistan and Afghanistan you would not have missed his name. Shehzadi Beg is a barrister based in London with over 15 years of experience in criminal and human rights law in the United Kingdom. She has held various judicial positions in Britain and regularly sits as an immigration judge in the country. She has been she's been working on Pakistan's legal sector for a long long time and the reason I was desperate to get her on the panel is that she was in Balochistan as part of a fact-finding mission last year and spent some time in the province so has information from the ground. Finally Mr. Ijaz Haider who is a long-time journalist and a defense analyst contributing editor to the Friday Times was also the op-ed editor of the Daily Times which is one of the major papers. He's been a Ford scholar at the University of Illinois. He's been at the Brookings institution very well known both in Pakistan and here and again I want to stress that I know of no other person who spent more time intellectually analyzing Balochistan than Mr. Haider in the past year and a half. I don't exactly know but I think eight to ten visits and you know has gone across the province to see the situation. So we've got real ground-truthing knowledge here which is very rare for issues as contested as Balochistan. So let me without further ado turn to Mr. Harrison to have his opening comments. He indicated he would speak for about ten minutes and we'll take it from there. Thank you so much. Why does Balochistan matter to the United States? I will present four reasons. First because the six million of Baloch in Pakistan, Iraq or Iran are the victims of the worst human rights abuses since Mr. Pinochet's chili. In the past four months alone at least 90 activists, teachers, journalists, and lawyers have disappeared or been murdered in Balochistan according to Amnesty International. I suspect that's a reality of very well known. Second, because it is strategically located near the Arabian Ocean, Persian Gulf, and the Strait of Hormuz. Final artery for US oil supplies. An independent Balochistan would not be a threat to US interests because Baloch leaders have often declared their support for US strategic objectives in the Persian Gulf and have offered assurances repeatedly that the US Navy and US merchant shipping would have access to the modernized port facilities now being built at Wadar with Chinese help. I suppose it's more or less completed but we still weren't going on. It's critical to US interests to maintain ties with the Baloch that deny control of Gwadar's China. Third, since the Baloch practice the Zikri variant of Islam. The Balochistan is a bastion against the spread of Islamist forces now dominating the rest of Pakistan. Notwithstanding Islamabad's efforts to depict them as terrorists, Luch nationalist groups have avoided ties with Islamist forces in Pakistan and Afghanistan and have cooperated with secular Pashtun elements in areas of northern Balochistan where there are Pashtun enclaves. Fourth, because it is a treasure trove of natural resources especially oil, gas, and copper. Balochistan never wanted to be a part of Pakistan. Never wanted to be a part of Pakistan. It was nominally incorporated into it only after bloody struggles with the Pakistan army. Which I go into in some detail in my book in Afghanistan's shadow, Baloch nationalism and Soviet temptations. Now the army maintains control by suppressing the Baloch independent movement with ruthless persecution of Baloch activists. I feel strongly that a working relationship between the Baloch and the Pakistan central government would have been desirable. Whatever. And I strongly advocated measures to promote this objective in my book Pakistan, the State of the Union. That was the product of a study group of Marvin and George who we participated in. But the weakness of the Zardari government is promoting greater autonomy for Baloch and in preventing the ISI from persecuting Baloch leaders, as it consistently does, ruthlessly does, leading to the rights violations I discussed, have made the emergence of an independent Balochistan increasingly vibrant. Significantly, Baloch leaders have assured India and Iran that they would cooperate in the construction and operation of a projected Iran India gas pipeline that would traverse Balochistan. India would become an independent welcome and independent Balochistan. And I believe has given some covert help to Baloch groups with money and possibly with arms. Pakistan makes consistent charges to this effect. When you ask ISI friends to give you evidence, they say come to Islamabad for a brief, I can't hear that you're here in Washington. The United States, in my view, has nothing to fear of an independent Balochistan. Indeed, an independent Balochistan would reinforce a US South Asia policy oriented to India as a rising regional and global power and would give the US new leverage over Iran in protecting the US interests and the other limited passage ships, driven with the strength of others. Those are not prepared remarks. I might add one point that I think is terribly important. That is that the Baloch nationals movement, when I wrote that in my book, was tribally based, was narrowly based. But now we have a nationalist movement that is built around a politically conscious, educated youth and political activists in the towns and urban centers that have developed. So I simply believe it's a formidable force. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks very much for those comments. Since Mr. Aerson has to leave, unfortunately, we weren't having for questions at the end. But I wanted to ask the panelists, if any of you have any questions or comments on the remarks before we get to the next presentation. Does anybody? Sure. This would first require another entire sitting. But I just want to say one thing, if anyone in Washington actually takes this view seriously for this analysis, then I think Washington is in deep trouble vis-a-vis Pakistan not just on the basis of the various port lines that are already developing. But this one is going to be the last day in the coffin of this US Pakistan strategic partnership or whatever, tactical partnership or whatever it is. And I don't think, mercifully, that anyone would take this view seriously. And the thing about human rights abuses, worse since the time of Pinochet, no word about what the Balochist sub-nationalists have done to the settlers in Balochistar. And also, I also read Mr. Aerson's article, Free Balochistar, in this publication for the national interest, if you will. That indeed is the US national interest. The 6 million Balochist Sergents. I think that is a highly exaggerated view. 6 million Balochist. Yeah, well, your article says 6 million Balochist Sergents. I have it open together. Okay. Is there any other question here, Marvin? Anything for? Sir, could you, yeah, would you like that? A quick comment. Before you watch, I would like to ask a few questions. Please, please, let's, let's, let's. Unfortunately, the US government does not take this view seriously. The US government, as we all know, isn't bent with General Skiania and Fascha, trying to keep it a little bit independent the last few days. But I mean, you know, no, this is, this is the problem. The US government has put some people in the garagey consulate to watch this attention to them. But I, I certainly, I don't know what the problem is. The US is in bed with a government that is promoting Islamist forces that are a threat to India and that are a threat to the United States. Lashkaritiva talks about the same sort of thing the Times Square Bonner did. So there's far from a problem that the US government takes in my view to them. Just very quickly. I mean, if the US is in bed with General Fascha and General Kiania, then it's a very bad relationship that they have. They should be much more harmonious if they're in bed together. The relationship between the US and Pakistan has actually never been so bad. The whole position with the Pakistan and one of the key issues that I want to raise is that to actually support a movement for separatism is a very, very dangerous avenue to travel down in that region. It's dangerous in any region, but particularly dangerous in that region. One of the issues that Mr Harrison hasn't raised, but I know that it is in his report called State of the Union, is the whole situation with Iran. Give them a free hand. Why don't you? I mean, there is, there is actually a great deal to be said on that. I mean, I'm not going to raise it all now because I want to talk about that in just a moment. Okay. Unfortunately, I have a medical apartment as I explained to you. Yes, that's why I wanted to have it be 10th and I failed. So for that reason, I had sent from the beginning that I would have to run on and I enjoyed this very much. And thank you very much. Hope that we'll get a lot of good discussion going. Thank you for taking me. I actually have a chair and we'll pass it out. But we'll pass the map out. Yeah, we just prepared a map. I think it's very helpful in seeing it happen. Can you make any map of Azad Krishni? Excuse me. Can we please move on? I don't think we need to get to the floor at this point. I forgot to mention. Thank you. Thank you so much. I forgot to mention that we are webcasting this event live. So for the speakers, please speak as close to the mic as possible. Okay. Let me move then quickly to the speaker to give her remarks. I guess this is on. I'm going to speak from here. Being a lawyer, I'm much more comfortable on my feet than sitting down. Now, there are those who say, and we've just heard one opinion about that, that the Balotian Surgency, with its deep-seated grievances and history of rebellion, will eventually succeed in establishing an independent Balotistan. Well, I'm firmly of the view that that really is not the case if you look at the whole area and what's happening on the ground. The fact of the matter is that we're talking about a territory, Balotistan, which comprises of 43% of Pakistani land territory. You have army and air force garrisons located in a number of locations, including Kholu, Guadar, Sui, Dhirabukti, Sibi, and in other areas. You have 12 corps, which is present in Guadar, under Southern Command. And on my visit last year, I actually spent some time out talking to the army at Southern Command. Two divisions, 33 and 41, in protective deployment across the province. Then you have the Frontier Corps, a paramilitary force which has units across Balotistan. The traditional institution of the levees has been, which was replaced, in fact, under Mashurov. He did a plan, I believe, from 2003 to 2008, in which he took away the power of the levees at a cost, a staggering cost, of 10 million rupees and gave full powers to the police. This was important and this remains the key focus of what I want to talk about, which is the law and order situation. In 2009, the present government brought back the levees in a highly retrograde step, in my view, and did away with the police system. This has, of course, contributed in eroding further writ of the state. The archaic system of the levees was meant for simple societies. It was not meant for a complex modern structure of a modern state. The civil bureaucracy is also aware that there are huge opportunities for corruption. The conversion of what became known as A areas, A areas equals police. B areas equals levees is a tragedy, in my view, for all of those who want to see the rule of law strengthened in this province, which, as I say, comprises of almost half of Pakistan. To have no police in 95% of Balotistan means that there is a vast safe haven for al-Qaeda and the Taliban to operate. They probably can't believe the gift that's been handed to them by a civilian democratic government. The whole issue of the rule of law is, of course, being closely watched by the Chinese, who have invested quite considerably in Gwadar Port and have a stake in its future, including protecting Beijing's oil supply lines from the Middle East and to counter the U.S. presence in South and Central Asia. Balotistan is also a potential transit route for the Iran-Turk Menestan India pipeline. It has a wide range of natural resources, underdeveloped oil reserves, uranium and gold deposits, and it has significant gas reserves. Then, of course, there is Balotistan's strategic location. It commands 900 miles of the Arabian Sea coastline, close to the Persian Gulf and the Straits of Hormuz, which, as we've heard from Mr. Harrison, vital for U.S. oil supply. Balotia leaders have sought U.S. support for separatism. They have consistently offered future port facilities of Gwadar to the U.S. Navy. Balotia grievances can be summed up in four major areas, and I'll just talk very quickly about those. Natural resources. Balotistan has failed to benefit from gas deposits. There are tensions in relation to that issue. It's historical. It's been ongoing. The Balotis say that, you know, 30% of Pakistan's gas comes from this area, but we only consume 17% of it, and we don't get our fair share of the royalties. One very important issue that I ought to flag up on the horizon is RecoDick. I don't know how many of you have been following that. RecoDick is an area in which there are considerable deposits of gold and copper that have been found. There are several experts from Washington, actually, who went to Pakistan, gave an opinion about that and said that if these are properly mined, then this area could be richer than some of the Gulf states because the deposits are so huge. What happened with the RecoDick issue is that a contract worth 260 billion U.S. dollars was awarded to a Canadian Chilean conglomerate. At a deal which, if I perhaps put it in very well-mannered language, not at arm's length, there was huge kickbacks that were paid back, and there was prima facie evidence that all was not as it should be. That matter has now gone to the Supreme Court because there were allegations made by the provincial government. It's now subjudice, and there is a judgment due on that. Secondly, marginalization. The royalties have had only a minor role in the construction of the Guarda Port. The project has remained largely under central government and some of the complaints from the royalties is that they have found it difficult to obtain work on development projects. The government in Balochistan hasn't invested in schools or colleges and land has been sold at giveaway in prices below market value. Literacy level is very low amongst most of the ethnic groups including the Baloch and the Pashtun. Thirdly, Baloch nationalism, and this is of course the the big issue there. The resurgence as someone described has arisen not only because of Baloch grievances but because there is considerable international support to the insurgency. The two Baloch tribes, Mengel and Murray, have a history of tribal revolt and political debate on the rights of the Baloch people. I'm not going to go too much into all of that because I think the digiars is going to cover some of those issues relating to that. Successive governments have attempted to purchase tribal leaders to control a particular area under a particular Sada. The Sada themselves have ensured that the areas remain underdeveloped and believe you me some of the the Sadas I met there was a guy who you know he said it sort of almost as a joke a tongue in cheek he said well you know you see these peasants he said we use them as target practice that may have been said as a joke or maybe tongue in cheek but the reality remains that that is part of the thinking. Even those individuals who had you know contracts working for say Sui gas were often actually paid in cash by the Sadas and the money this is your wages was on the floor by the feet of the Sada so that you had to grovel effectively to pick it up. Challenging the authorities of the Sadas has been unthinkable by the locals for a very long time. Akbar Bhukti the man who was killed had up to 2,000 men at different times some of them were levy some of them were his own men and many of them were paid through the cash that had been given to the Sadas. Uneducated jobless politically divided frustrated people have persistently been exploited in the country and certainly from outside. Since the death of Akbar Bhukti some of the Baloch leaders have attempted to loosely sort of come together to deal with wider Baloch interests. A word about Afghan refugees volatile community some of them have been accused and I don't know really where the truth of this lies but some of them have been accused of harboring insurgents some of them have been accused of being involved in targeted killings. Most have never known stability and there continues to be an uncertain environment, uncertain future for them. Some of the teenage boys have been known to loot NATO supply trucks. NATO supply trucks that I saw when I went to the Kandahar German border you stand at the border and this is interesting actually because at the border you have very good security on the Pakistan side and you know there's a channel for people who are walking and a channel for different types of vehicles but as far as the eye can see there are NATO supply trucks that travel through they stay there there are arms being shipped through there's you know all kinds of supplies that are being shipped through and there is an issue that I wanted to to really flag up which perhaps I couldn't flag up now. I saw something very interesting I came to Washington actually not just to speak on this but to speak at another event on AFPAC soft power which the State Department was organizing and David Kilcullen was there and he talked about you know one of the big issues in Afghanistan being corruption. What absolutely astonished me was that when I was at the border some of the trucks that go through seem to have arms that are then distributed in Afghanistan and there was a guy by the name of General Rizak who I'd never heard of and I asked some of the people there I said you know who is this man is he a military man who does he work for and the response that I got was that actually he was a nobody I mean I think he was a vegetable seller when life started out for him but then life got considerably better because he went over the border he established something called the Baloch colony where he started training Balochis to carry out insurgent activities over the border in Balochistan and they blow up gas pipelines now this man is now so wealthy that he's got houses in Dubai and all over the place and he is supported by the Americans he's supported by the Indians and what he does and he's been photographed I mean there are you know satellite photographs of him handing out weapons and I was surprised that this man is allowed to operate what way in which he's made a lot of his money is that every vehicle that goes over the border has to pay a diesel tax you either pay in petrol or you pay in cash but pay you must and then you get a stamped receipt and that receipt is taken black economy massive corruption supported by the U.S. now I was alarmed about that when I came back to London I went to a briefing by RC South as it happens so I raised this and I said you know is this true or you know is this sort of propaganda what what is this and and I was told that yes this is absolutely true and yes we do pay a diesel diesel tax and yes the man is very wealthy and we are well aware that he has weapons but we but but he's he's our man you know he's anti-Taliban and therefore he must be okay was a response I got extremely dangerous situation the other matter that I want to raise up is and I'll talk very briefly about this disappeared persons it's a matter that constantly seems to be attached to particularly to Balochistan the press has been reporting that you know there have been scores of bodies riddled with bullets that have been found in Balochistan and that other people have simply disappeared provincial government set up a sell for the investigation and recovery of missing persons I'm not really sure what's happened with that but what I can tell you is that on one of my visits to Pakistan the supreme court which has for a long time taken up these issues took up the issue of missing persons and asked the head of the federal investigation agency which is the equivalent to your FBI it's it's a big position and the chief justice said to the director general you will be here nine o'clock tomorrow morning with this man because if this man who disappeared four years ago is not produced you will go to jail and the following morning nine o'clock in the morning the man was produced and the the cameras were all there and the press were there and they stuck a microphone under him and they said where have you been and he said well I was picked up from Punjab about four years ago on suspicion of being involved with terrorist groups I wasn't involved with them and they took me to Balochistan and I sat in a room and I had three meals a day for four years and he came out and the whole thing was very bizarre but I mean I only flag this up because it is an important issue it's a very emotive issue and there are lots of cases pending currently in the supreme court on this right I'll move very quickly I'll hope I'm all right for time I'll move very quickly to position with India important the state of Pakistan has of course been aware for a very long time that Baloch nationalists including the BLA have been trained and funded by foreigners including India successive chief ministers including John Muhammad Yusuf who was prime minister in 2004 is on record of saying that the Indian secret service have maintained and has maintained for some time scores of terrorist training camps in Balochistan Pakistan's last foreign minister Shah Mahmood Gureshi told his counterpart that the Indian passport that Bramdag Bhukti who was the grandson of Bhukti he holds an Indian passport that that should be cancelled since India opened its consulates in Afghanistan it has been consistently accused of sponsoring insurgent activity in Balochistan India is also seen as considering China's role in the construction of Guada port as a potential threat to its economic and strategic interests in the region Balochistan may yet become a bigger obstacle in Pakistan India relations then even Kashmir there then there are other international players amongst them the British the Americans the Iranians and the Afghans it should be in this audience a no-brainer that any external support to dissident groups will not only further destabilize the region but will actually provide a greater handle to Iran in regional affairs make no mistake about that Iran remains concerned about acts of terrorism on its border I'm going to miss a big chunk that I wanted to talk about because time is short safe to say that they have had terrorist attacks which they have blamed on Jandola which is a group that has been based periodically or at least functioning out of parts of Balochistan what about the U.S. Washington and its allies must be aware that they but they are aware that they could flame what is already a very grave situation that we now have they are aware that Balochian nationalists who oppose the Taliban can be used to exert pressure both on the Taliban and Iran there is of course very little love loss between the Mullahs and the Sardars and the Balochians sought to exploit the situation prevailing in Muziristan insurgents and and this was again part of my fact-finding mission from the tribal belt have been known to cross into the mountains of Balochistan and melt into some of the Bakdun population in Qweta and in Yemen what is clear is that there has been a free flow of arms in Balochistan for a very long time two years ago some of the Balochian leaders recognizing that without foreign support they could not prevail over a strong military and a determined central government made it known that they would be satisfied with a generous version of autonomy the government then announced at the end of 2009 and if anybody wants any more about this I can talk about this later the Baloch constitution package but much of that has yet been implemented um so far as Afghanistan is concerned has a long border with Balochistan and the terrain I mean this is this is quite important because the the terrain of course is so difficult that you know some of the areas can't even be negotiated with with donkeys but the fact remains that there are people that crisscross the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan the fact also remains that in Afghanistan you have a sizable Baloch population in places like Nimrod's Helmand and even Fura okay one minute left in conclusion I say this that with the end state negotiations in the pipeline as the U.S. drawdown begins in Afghanistan groundwork in my view must be laid for effective dialogue with insurgent leaders in Balochistan and civil society leaders there must be serious efforts at capacity building in the law enforcement and justice system and Pakistan needs help with its to restructure its governance structures the international community and this is really the the kind of key message if you like is that it needs to understand very clearly the correlation between an ineffective criminal justice system and the root causes of many of Balochistan's problems for there to be sustainable peace in Afghanistan there must be stability and the rule of law in Balochistan and it will take in my view leaders with vision to promote a conducive environment for building a lasting peace and it must be lasting and sustainable to all its neighbors thank you thank you very much Shazali for that elaborate presentation clearly your your ground experience comes out very very well in that may I now turn to Ijaz with the caveat that we are slightly behind time so 15 minutes and no more please thank you we it's always difficult to figure out where to start from when it comes to Balochistan it's become even more difficult to outsell on this being a very articulated presentation so let me just flag one point before we get to details that the irony of the current situation in Balochistan is that this Baloch unrest began somewhat early 2006 not because the federal government was trying to deprive Balochistan of something but because the federal government realized that it was in part some strategic interest to develop Balochistan this is one of the ironies that needs to be flagged out of which was born this Baloch sentiment that Gawadar and Pasmi and Jawani and these ports and the controlments and the building of the roads and are developing other infrastructure was once again an attempt by the central government Gawadar Gawadar to organize Balochistan so this fact needs to be flagged now there are in terms of the population there are essentially three broad groups you've got the Baloch and then you've got the Barawis and this is an interesting thing that the biggest type in Balochistan which is the non-questionable or the non-secret type are the Mangals and the Mangals are Barawis they're not Baloch although for the purposes of this Baloch movement the Barawis the Mangals consider themselves Baloch Mr. Harrison I talked about 6 million Baloch it's a very interesting thing that there has been this consideration of holding a census in Balochistan we exactly figure out what the population racial are and the one broad group that opposes that census are the Baloch so then you have the Pashtoot and then you have the settlers which are generally Punjabi and Hazaras and Hazaras is a small community mostly based in Kuwaita and also south of Kuwaita in Masno and these are primarily Ishiya and they they had they came from the Hadarajahs and they also came from parts of Afghanistan and settled there they are among the the other ethnic groups they are the most educated literate group socially upwardly mobile generally joined the army police civil services doctors engineers so they're broadly speaking the most educated groups so these are the ethnicities and the fort lines broadly speaking one fort line is the Baloch sub nationalism I won't flag this point that I do not describe this as Baloch nationalism there are sub nationalist groups and the reason I say that is that and this is something that I firmly believe in that the Baloch problem has to be dealt with politically to dialogue and un-pronitional dialogue but that dialogue has to be conducted within the federal framework for myself the United States fought its law of independence on the principle of segregation and then the north fought the south on the principle of integration so when states are there they do not allow parts to be received and the Pakistani state is no peculiar exception to this general principle so whatever needs to be done in Baloch is done and it must be done and urgently has to be done within the federal framework through an un-pronitional dialogue with all groups that won't participate in that dialogue the other fort line is the sectarian fort line and this is generally in Kuwaita and in Mustung and the target of this are the Hadar's Mosheer and they're targeted by the left-wing Changi which is a violent offshoot of Sebaiz Awa Pakistan but interestingly enough most of its carders in Balochistan are Baloch and generally the goods which are based in Mustung and an interesting fact about that is that in Mustung there is a lot of Iranian money that comes in and another private donkeys have generally begun to convert to shares so donkeys have been attacked and the Hadaras have been attacked in Kuwaita and the micro-trend in terms of for the number of violent deaths this particular fort line has claimed more people than any other fort line then we have the Afghan Taliban the Afghan Taliban of course can't go and ironically are the most peaceful group as far as the Pakistani state is concerned because there is no particular law and order any other problem emanating from these people as to why they should be able to come in and go back I was in Chaman about two months ago and I stood there and talked to the Afghan border guards and there should be the ID cards there Pakistani National ID cards two of them had been doing small businesses in Kuwaita before they joined the Afghan border security force I actually convinced them to let me go in I had no covered no passport no visa so I went to Weishman D.I. went to spend both the guy who was around here back talked to people who were moving back and forth met with this Pakistani guy from Chaman who has his shop and Weishman D.I. who was last 30 years when we placed the biometrics system there on the Chaman crossing it was attacked by the Afghans at the behest of the Afghan government destroyed the biometrics system so this border is not a border that you can and dramatically see against peoples coming and going across then we have Jandola and Jandola as the Iranians said to me and I convinced them this and there are some of you that that the Pakistani states state looks the other way while the Americans in the Saudis fund Jandola but the the trouble is Jandola is linking up with Lashkar-e-Jungi and some of the recent suicide bombings inside Sistan-Gonujistan have been carried out by the LJ activists so Jandola which is fighting the Shia state for the independence of Sistan-Gonujistan is Sumi links up with LJ which is Sumi and LJ provides support to them also and LJ is killing the Alhara in Kota also and then of course you've got the Eastern actors some of the actors this being mentioned let me also add that the dub stairs are also interested in destabilizing this particular part and which is why the trouble is to remove south and southwest from the heart of the money Bukhi migrant areas and going south we have is the below south nationalist groups go we've got the the BLA which is led by which is the Bari which is the Bari this group led by Habia Bari who sits on it and then we've got the BRA which is Bukhi based led by Brahmada Brahmada Mir Ali Bukhti and Shahzad Bukhti three grandsons Nawab Bukhti Mir Ali Bukhti has recently been thrown out of Dera Bukhti Shahzad has been trying to get in and reclaim the Bukhti from Brahmada Bukhti obviously considers that he is the man who has to lead Bukhti and so there is this these sport lines intra Bukhti sport lines as far as Dera Bukhti at this particular Bukhti area is concerned Nawab Akbar Bukhti at where his ties was the interior minister of Pakistan the governor of Rajasthan the chief minister of Rajasthan took a lot of money from OGDC and the governor of Pakistan as a kind of rent for the Soviet fields and the other mineral borders that there are in Dera Bukhti but according to the human development index Dera Bukhti is the worst district in Pakistan in terms of Nishnian so the point that was being was making about Sardars actually not allowing the areas to develop and this is where the problem lay and we got it as a legacy of the British Raj because when Pakistan was formed what all they did was and this is what successive governments kept doing both civilian hand narrative that you go to the Balaar you find the biggest tent you make a deal with the guy who sits in the tent and let him deal with the rest of the Balaar and that's what what was happening constantly and it was one Sardar someone else is giving trouble so you give money to one and so on and so forth and that kind of created this system where the federal government never had a real outreach to the people of the Balaar people of Balochistan i.e the Baloch because let's not forget that there is a Baloch problem because Balochistan is not just Baloch that I said that there's a bit when you are you know population of the Pashtun which is absolutely no issue with the federation so to speak and the Halaar was of course completely impeded in the infrastructure system and most of them actually have a stake in within the federal and in the religious system currently there is a provincial government there is a national finance commission award which had been hanging fire for 17 years and which was worked out among the four fed rating units primarily on the basis of the formula that Balochistan wanted and it it has been flagged as a major achievement of the current government so that is very important there is also rights of Balochistan package which has 29 point center some of that has started happening a lot of it still needs to happen especially in the discourse where the money is at elevated to Balochistan as far as the Baloch youth is concerned in combination with the Balochistan government the army began a project for educating Baloch youth and focuses exclusively on the Baloch so there is a system through which they select wise and girls 15th and wise 15th and girls which are placed in various private and public schools across Balochistan and the tuition fees and you know board and launch and movement and everything is paid for to a fund which is to which the Balochistan government also continues similarly purely on the on the army side the army has started a program recruiting the Baloch into the army and they have a function now recruited about 10,000 troops which are exclusively Baloch from the Balochian areas they have for the officer guarder they have actually brought down some of those benchmarks required for entry into the Baxan military territory so this is what the army is trying to do for the Balochian and it will give them a sense of ownership and for them to be part of the the recognition the record day can sender can the Casa my marble mine field and all that this thing is talked about but let me tell you something very interesting and and this was this this game as a as a strange surprise to me also the Baloch always invokes the hidden wealth but the Baloch will never become a miner he will never go into the inner reaches of all the mining is carried out by Pashtun from Deer and Swarth the Baloch outside of the mine are prepared to provide security and to we and to you know have these small businesses with the infrastructure like tea stalls and the rest of it but not even on pair of deaths is he going to enter a mine don't ask me why but when I ask these people so I didn't raise this comment sir sir can we can we can we try very recently no can we please finish before before we have any questions go ahead I'm just getting something you say have that can you please continue with your with your presentation sir please so when I went to the Chamanang old mines I actually because I was meeting with the with the maris and the loonies and I was also talking to the other Baloch and I asked them I said is there any Baloch that actually goes into the mine fleet and they said no we'll provide security but this is not something that we are prepared to do because for some reason they it's like for instance I will not go into the mine I'm not a Baloch I'm not a Prashanam I will not go into the mine it's maybe because I feel claustrophobic maybe I have some some fear that I don't want to go into the inner region of the earth so the miners are all Prashanam and that is that is something that I found very strange so in any case as far as the mining part of it is concerned you're unlikely to get Baloch to go into the mine so you'll have to have people mostly from Kavukka Kavukka to come and manage these these mines finally because it's just two minutes left this is this is a this is a problem that needs to be dealt with as I said a dialogue needs to start the those points in the rights of the Ritisal package that have not been dealt with as yet need to be dealt with something needs to be done very very quickly about human rights abuses that are being alleged and for which there is some evidence also although I must say that there are strange narratives on all sides of the the more life and we can discuss those when the floor is open to questions but there is no insurgency going on in the world to start the struggle but no insurgency we have a thriving insurgency already in the friendly industry triangle areas and I think given that we don't need to have another insurgency and other problems but yes there is a little bit of of last year and a little bit of of last year but no sustained insurgency in the in the global areas thank you thank you Marvin if I could directly move to you yes you sorry you really do have a tough challenge because if I may say so I haven't absorbed this much this much well that's that that's exactly where I wanted to start because we've had such a detailed portrait here that I certainly couldn't add to to what we've heard but what I can I hope talk about is a little bit about the American perspective on this and whether we're going to call it a beluch insurgency or struggle I'll leave that up to others it is a challenge nevertheless to the Pakistan state and but that it's read differently in the U.S. for many Pakistanis so the beluch nationalists are terrorists a militant militant nationalists terrorists but as we view it in the United States for the most part this is a domestic issue to some extent it gets attention here because there are human rights issues which arise particularly with the identification of targeted killings and the disappearance of beluch nationalists which has become quite quite a an issue recently mutilated bodies abducted militants presumably there's also a lack of concern about the the struggle if you will because we view this essentially as a as a secular movement there's no evidence that I'm aware of that these ethnically beluch fighters have aligned with international terrorists or particularly the Pashtun Pakistani Taliban now having said that if it's if it's not the insurgency just the same we have a strategic important strategic interest I believe in beluchistan and of course that relates mainly at the moment because we have a war going on in Afghanistan and it's from this province that at least a good number of the Afghan insurgents are launched particularly those going into the southern provinces this is the where the main line of the forces challenging the U.S. as I say infiltrating and whether Mullah Omar is there or he's somewhere in Karachi which many believe and nevertheless it remains an important command center very probably Al-Qaeda has a presence in northern beluchistan although we generally tend to see it as having its base in north Waziristan it's long been the site of course ever since the Taliban left Afghanistan or pushed out of Afghanistan in 01 it's been the source of presence which we call the quite assure and we know for many years that its leaders could move around freely in the city and they remain under the protection if not fully the control of Pakistan's ISI in any event many of us look at this as the neglected front in the encounter insurgency now the U.S. continues with drone attacks and we often note the fact that despite of what I've just said the beluch targets are entirely excluded the U.S. has not had approval for these strikes from the government of Pakistan in any case it would be much more difficult to employ the drones if especially if we think that the command centers are located in urban Quetta now there has been some level of cooperation with Pakistan's security forces joint operations with the ISI we know about this I guess the Mullah Bharata incident demonstrates this it also demonstrates a good many other things which we won't go into now but the ISI at times does put clamps on the Quetta Shura just to remind them who's in control the leaders families residing as they are in Pakistan gives Pakistan gives the ISI considerable leverage but in the end I don't believe and I don't think they believe that they can dictate to the Afghan Taliban now the U.S. gets implicated in this because we're seen here as in our actions in Afghanistan as providing the cover the creating the conditions under which India is able to metal in in Pakistan and particularly in the Balochistan struggle that now there are many of us who think that India's interest here is essentially an interest because of the emergence of regional terrorism but of course Pakistan still believes that this is part of some larger geostrategic problem that they have it's interesting of course given the history of India's involvement there in the 1970s and and at other times you could understand some of Pakistan's obsession with this but the level of Indian assistance with money and perhaps weapons is to my mind very unclear it too often it smacks of the same kind of conspiracy theories that one hears when relating to our the supposed Indian involvement and American for that matter with the TTP now maybe these are separate maybe in one case it is conspiracy theory in fantasy and maybe in the other case it's real but the fact is that it's interesting that Pakistan has never come out with hard evidence of Indian involvement now that doesn't mean it's not taking place but it's always struck me the fact that whereas India of course was anxious to build a case in Mumbai Pakistan has not at all now there may be reasons that you can share with me why that's the case I don't know now we have a great deal of interest here also because our supply routes to Afghanistan at least one of them major one the one that goes through through Chaman passes through Balochistan now there's another interest too because going the other way is the route for drugs and as we concerned about drug trafficking in Afghanistan that means the flow into Balochistan of a good portion of the drugs that's leaving Afghanistan Afghanistan we've heard already about Guadarport and here of course the concern here is that there's a possibility of a future Chinese presence we've heard about it being major shipping lanes makes it important we do know that China has an economic state now in Pakistan which goes beyond its strategic geostrategic calculations Balochistan comes into play and we've also heard this because of the Jandula fighters operation and their operations in Iran whether there's some level of U.S. involvement and this is alleged is again still to be demonstrated it certainly fits our scheme of things perhaps but it is important for Pakistan certainly because it affects its relations with them now I want to return before I finish here to the Baloch uprising that began I guess in 03 or so the U.S. I think has an interest in Islamabad succeeding in dealing with the Baloch separates in spite of the fact that I say that this is marginal for us as nationalists they have they do have an intense in-tipathy toward the state especially the Punjabis who they accuse of looting their resources and repressing them it's I believe and I don't agree with Selik Harrison here I believe it's not it's not in our interest to see Pakistan fragment in any way along certainly along ethnic and provincial lines which would make it even less a strategic partner the U.S. interest in Pakistan government resolving its differences with the nationalists I think is is to see that come about in a peaceful and I stress equitable fashion and that's unlikely to happen I think we agree without an investment in the province's development and a greater being greater attuned to questions of equity and perhaps the the devolution process which is on the way in Pakistan here can make some progress in that development I'd like to include on a positive note I guess I don't have to fully because we were concerned we might we might have yeah that we've heard about the mineral wealth the Sui reserves here the possibly major mineral reserves this is an ideal port water for international trade going into central Asia gas and oil pipelines that are going to have to cross Balochistan whether they're coming from Afghanistan or they're coming from Iran they're going to have to cross Balochistan and that means that if there is going to be that that development which could have such an important role in in bringing these countries in the area bringing them together in terms of their convergent interests should it happen and I wouldn't invest in it at this moment because I I think the finances on it are still very questionable but nevertheless the trans shipment from either place is going to require a more secure environment in Balochistan I think it's important that we see that the this secure environment is not going to happen through a achieve through a military solution that's very clear so the question I leave you with the idea that that Balochistan's future is in Pakistan and Pakistan's future I think to a large extent here particularly in terms of its economic potential lies in Balochistan the question is whether either side is going to realize that potential thank you thank you thanks once again Marvin always informative and eloquent I'm going to give one minute each and no more to the three panelists if they want to respond to anything anybody else has said if there is anything but one minute because then we want to ask if there are the questions I just want to comment on a couple of things that are Marvin which he said one was about India's involvement she said this is still in the fairyland of conspiracy theories I said there was no evidence I said I wanted to see him part evidence I said without that it falls into the concerns but you know Marvin you know that this you know that this is in recent years in very recent times been commented on for example for John McChrystal I was there when he made that comment at a session in London I'm not allowed to attribute comments to the conference that you and I were at just two days ago where there was acceptance by people who held official positions in the U.S. that yes there has been support funding arming training by India to providing surgeons so that you know that is there I'm not sure but it's very helpful to then go back and say well you know there is still no part evidence the second matter is that yes actually this is linked when you were saying that you know Pakistan has not built his case Pakistan's never good at building his case which is the problem I mean we have a report from the White House to Congress talking about your sentences such as you know that Al Qaeda is still present that there is a global threat from Al Qaeda being based in Pakistan I mean they're never good for example at giving an assessment of the war so far never good at giving an assessment of this is the solid baseline that we're talking about that doesn't mean that it isn't out there I just don't think that they're very good at responding and what you often have is the army saying now here is the PowerPoint presentation you know let's look at these numbers one two and three it's it's not what should be out there and I sometimes get the impression on my troubles and frankly speaking he who can talk good can write clearly shouts the loudest tends to get the lead not always based on evidence one very last point which is that you talked about you know Kretah Shorah I don't know if there's a Kretah Shorah you know I have heard about that there is no I don't know what what I the point I wanted to make I don't know Marvin I'm sure I don't know any more than you know but what I'm aware of course that there are no drone attacks in Kretah but what I'm also aware about is that there have been special operations going on we hear something about that now but they have been going on for some time yes it is one addition there is also evidence it is very difficult to produce evidence of intelligence operations on a board of law and make the giant step but there is evidence and when I asked my sources why this evidence was not put out I was told that the Indians have been shown this evidence do recall that and Shamu Sheikh joint declaration India accepted the Pakistani point of Orochizan and Orochizan please the other issue was that they said that because relations with Tazai have moved towards the positive side we do not want to come up with something in public which would embarrass and since I have written this in black and white yet we also say this here that in October 2009 when I was meeting this region on charge in a Virginia office who also there I think in that region and he said that we had an explanation that Tazai's brother was running the answer to the Orochizan it would be so I I don't know what kind of evidence we are asking for because if we want to work you know patient as like done with our trial and go to jury maybe we won't let the case so oh it's okay this is a side issue I brought it up only because it involves us really not the central issue there's no question that India has an interest here I do get I do get the feeling of exaggeration when what happens is if India has a hospital somewhere this becomes a consulate and so you hear about 15 consulates and so on if India has a road crew that's another now consulates are there to collect as collectionary there's no consulate that doesn't have on as a means so that no that's not so the real issue is whether that makes a difference here whether the Indian involvement to whatever level it is makes a difference in perpetuating this insurgency my information tells me that the overwhelming support for the blue struggle comes from the blue the iceberg coming like it is coming for for others it's coming from the gospel so we may say this but whether that in itself is an important fact or not my question all right thank you I think one of you would agree that this is probably the most absorbing and informative discussion that that we've had in a long time on on this subject we have a few minutes to have questions and what I'll do is I'll just acknowledge you and then there'll be a mic that comes to you please hold it very close so that the the webcast can can take off and I'll just in the order I saw them can I go to you sir I'm not sir actually from Balochistan but I'm not a Balochian Pashtun first of all I would say I really find this ironic that this conflict is a conflict between an occupying nation and occupied nation Punjab as occupier and Balochistan as and Baloch as occupied nation and I find this really ironic that there's no one representing Baloch in this panel I mean entire North America I couldn't find any single Baloch I mean there's three of you sitting representing Punjab but anyways I'm not actually but well you all represent the center of the Punjab anyway can we get a question the question my question is first question is from Shahzadi you said if there's insurgency in Balochistan it will destabilize Afghanistan further and this can't be stability in Afghanistan if there's insurgency in Balochistan there was no insurgency in the Pashtun Huan Heber Pashtun Hua and the parts of Pashtuns and there is no insurgency from Pashtun nationalists but Taliban found sanctuary and they are protected and we hear this day and night and every day in the international media they are protected by Pakistani intelligence agencies and Pakistani army so how can you say that Baloch nationalism and Baloch insurgency will further help that and I have second questions from can we just go one at a time because there are a lot of hands if there is time I'll come back to you thank you very much so that would you like to it's as simple as this instability in one area which joins another area makes that area unstable we know that from what's happened in KPK on the KPK issue I mean you know that's a that's a huge issue I really you know would need another whole seminar to deal with that you don't really want to believe everything that you read in the media that's the first thing second thing is that this was an issue that came up actually in the conference that I mentioned that you were talking about that Marvin and I were at with this constant push about North Waziristan everything that's going on is going on in North Waziristan and the point that I made there is the simple one which is that almost half of the zones if not more that are actually currently targeting the Fata areas are actually targeting North Waziristan places like that that feel have been bond to the stone age continue to be bond so it's not as if there's actually not it's not as if there's actually nothing going on there you know there is but the whole issue about what's going on in the parliament is a big question okay um let me I've seen all hands I will come to you just let me take it in order and please make it questions we're only you know very very short of time here Dennis Dennis Cooks from the Woodrow Wilson Center I wonder if you if all the panel would address what seems to me is a key issue how well is the federal government doing in patching things up with the Balooch in other words there's a problem you've given varying degrees of assessments of what the problem is but there clearly is a problem and how is the government of Pakistan doing question mark I apologize you keep on hearing weird noises in this room we are new to this building so I also have no clue what's happening who would like to take this they're trying to do certain things but my problem with their approach is that I think they need to pull in the uh the sub nationalist groups BLA, BRA, BLE, where you know the uh Raskarae, Naroj Hussar all of these groups should be pulled in I will have any criticisms for talks now of course Dr. Rala Nallar I didn't interview him many times just about I think couple of days ago he says very clearly that he's not prepared to talk as the session is the only option now that's the kind of thing that the federal government will face the provincial government will face but that's precisely the challenge that they need to take up politically and then of course as far as the security part of it is concerned no state would allow itself to be undermined this way but that in and of itself should not prevent the federal or the provincial government from taking political measures to pull in these people and talk to them he wanted to see me afterwards what I can do what I was going to say was that what I have here which may interest you and probably to some extent to answer your question is the whole list of what the constitutional package for Balochistan was all about for the government announced a huge transfer and said that you may have an all party parliamentary committee that has dealt with that we've built the consensus and here is the package that is going to address all those issues what I can tell you and maybe Sherry Ramon the minister is here this morning although that was that was off the record but you might have been able to say you know how far the government's got on this how what do you think do you like to get your opinions on how well the government is working on this can I get very briefly this this government isn't doing anything well so that it can handle this problem along with the others I think speaks for itself but perhaps a longer discussion later yeah my name is Kami but I write for the Pakistani spectator I agree with Harrison that since the inception of Pakistan Pakistani army is brutalizing no no but okay my question is it's really injustice that you do not have any Indian friend or musty Khan my brother here because they are the people who represent look India has as much concern about Balochistan as Pakistan has about Kashmir army Kashmiri I think India should get its part out of Kashmir and Pakistan should get its part out of Balochistan okay my question is why don't you have somebody from India why don't you have musty Khan who who has devoted his life why don't you have some Ra's person people understand what is Ra it's like ISI and and see I hear Ra is supporting Balochistan because what's your question I'll answer this in my closing remark thanks I think Ra gave very little money I think I've got your question sir please my name is Andrew I my name is my name is Andrew Iva I was formerly the director of the Federation for American Afghan Action Mr. Hyder said there is no insurgency there's trouble in Balochistan I would just like Shahzadees and Marvin's assessment whether there is an insurgency or not okay okay Marvin it's you know Marvin might because there are people Andrew I think we're talking about some athletes here you know depending on how you view the comfort you've got a different term for so I don't think there's an answer to that I don't really have much to add with that you have insurgent groups some people call it an insurgency some people say you know it's I mean I agree with Marvin I wasn't the authority was very quickly but I'm going to say yes the government very much do you want to say something on insurgency since you're the culprit here yeah century about the nature of the conflict itself and frankly in terms I mean it's a strange way of putting it but it is about how much the the anti-strait adversary can do it's about quantity it's about frequency it's about the lethality of what the other side can do which would perhaps allow someone to put a tag on it in terms of whether it's an insurgency or whether it's it's on trouble whether it is sporadic terrorist attacks in some ways yes I would agree with Marvin that it is about semantics but one also needs to put some kind of quantity and some kind of lethality or to figure out whether what is going on and what it is are essentially an insurgency and and perhaps what could compare it with what is happening in the type of conflict or to figure out whether which one of the two conflicts can actually be we call it an insurgency okay thank you yeah hi my name is Madhya I'm a graduate student and Pakistani and I do agree that Pakistan needs to be united rather than separated as we can see even here there's a lot of he's such he said he said going on so I was going to ask this dialogue that you've suggested would there be any kind of advocacy or any kind of you know thing done to unite Pakistan to talk about maybe more development side you know Who would like to take this? Mr. Ather is busy with his life very much I'm going to pass this over to each other in a moment but I see it really that you feel what way dialogue talking is always good you can't achieve anything unless you talk but talking has to deal with the four key areas under development and it's huge it's so huge that some areas frankly speaking when my travels looked to me as if it was you know 12th century Arabia it's we're talking that level of under development criminal justice system as I said in my remarks absolutely central you have to be on top of the normal situation foreign interference these issues will revolve we've seen some arrays here very important and lastly to actually address the grievances and human rights issues there are multiple fault lines this is not the only one and as a matter of fact when it comes to governments there are vacuums even in the banyan in urban areas even in the city of Lava for instance you work the small local chains which work very nicely but they also benefits the absence of governance at one end and whether is there some kind of way in which those local chains can actually subsume into the larger national chains is an issue that of course is being debated there are too many questions but very few answers I want a last show of hands I have two I have two people here is there anybody else I'm going to tap it here because we are running out of time okay sir and then the gentleman can we get a microphone here and we just need one minute questions because we're almost out of time I am Balooch and I'm from Baloochistan my humble request to the USIP please don't invite Pakistanis to talk on Baloochistan my question is to Mr. Marvin Weinbaum Mr. Weinbaum I would like to request you the United States is supporting the rebels in Libya quote unquote rebels the West has supported the rebels in Ivory Coast will the United States and the West please realize the gravity of the human rights situation in Baloochistan and support our independence okay thank you can we get the question sure my name is Wilson Lee I'm with the National Endowment for Democracy everyone sort of mentioned the need for a political solution but I was struck by the fact that no one talked about political parties or the the government provincial government in Baloochistan they talked about the insurgents and the military sort of the armed factions and I was just wondering if I can get your assessment about whether you know the nationalist parties who didn't contest the last elections but still remain a viable political platform for mobilization whether they have any role in this I want to go in reverse order from there the two questions and anything else you want to add the last word so I did I did mention that I did mention that there is interest in this country and not great interest but it's been some best coverage of atrocities but whether the U.S. has a strategic a vital strategic interest in the Balooch struggle insurgency whatever I started off by saying no thought I'd give some reasons to why I might be the case you want to do two questions and ask what it is but 30 seconds please yeah well this is not exactly the kind of a road sentiment that I was talking about which which makes it difficult to dialogue with the Balooch why won't I sir can please you should have it there man that is just okay can can we please finish this I will answer your question I've already said that but which is exactly the kind of challenge that has to be taken up and and addressed which is precisely why I said that these groups need to be pulled in as far as sir your question about the political parties yes there are mainstream political parties which are part of the the which is the possibly party and the evil cube and the other other parties the J.Y.S some of the the Balooch parties did not participate as in B.K.M the Baku Bapu Yama B.K.M party and others we are likely to have next elections my own assessment is March but it kind of onwards there will be the elections and hopefully those parties will contest the elections and to be a part of the process within the provincial parties and also also the federal parties I'm not sure why you think that the Balooch are not supported internationally they certainly are and I've probably had enough arms before he was killed to arms small African state okay may I say that this has been a tough one for me I don't know about the panelists and and the audience but but I think I partly expected this let me just sum up by by saying a couple of things first of all I think one thing that comes out of this to my mind at least as as an analyst is again and again there is no substitute for ground knowledge and you know there's so little of that unfortunately we've talked so much about this region but if you really get down to the nitty gritty in some ways has you know even lost me somewhere and I think I know this country so I want to thank the panelists for really bringing out all four of you something something new today as far as this idea of what to do and how to move forward I think to me if I summarize this it becomes fairly clear that the way to move forward is political dialogue which is something at least on paper that the government has put and while I think there is of course a clear disagreement Mr. Harrison took the other line I think the other three were of the opinion that the Federation of Pakistan it's in their interest and the interest of others to see this region stabilize as quickly as possible and so all forces need to move in that direction and perhaps much quicker than than they have on this question of why we have this panel and not others let me tell you there's if this job was tough my last week was tougher and it's very interesting that this is one of the events where no side is had no single side is had everybody has come back to me with a complaint some even official so I just want to say USIP to be very clear is an independent thing that we do more events perhaps than anybody in town and you can go back and look in the past year we've had all sorts of people come here and present perspectives and a lot of you have attended events and would know this let me also add that I am not here to say that we when I say we have a diverse view every time that we cover all views right I mean the it's it's impossible and so I am going to upset people so if I you know there are certain things which of course one needs to improve on one can talk about more I have nothing wrong with that but please sir please okay please understand that when I or USIP or anything tank is putting together something there are various things that we are reaching out to looking at and if you say Pakistan is overrepresented I'm sorry but in my mind and I let me just say one that's right my friend that is that is you should have sir part of Pakistan okay sir therefore Mr. just just mean you should have Mr. Qumar there who said can I just finish 16 to kill in no sense I'm sorry I'm sorry I cannot am I right Mr. Qumar Mr. Qumar can I please finish the point here is very simple I am not there's if anybody is offended I'm sorry I thought this was a fairly good panel there were people who had been there they're people who are known who've written extensively if there is somebody who doesn't agree with this that's exactly what I think is on I I hope somebody else does another event good luck to them but I thought this was a great panel please join me in thanking you