 It looks like we're live, everybody. You are in for such a special treat today. I'm here with Dr. Corson and I'm gonna introduce her in just a moment here. She's a wonderful guest and we haven't known each other that long although we've been in the same circles for years. So I've known of her and have had the greatest respect for her work and the lecture she's just given recently about Fibrin. We're gonna dive into that in just a minute or two. But before we do, I wanna give you just a little background. You all know me, you've been here before. If you want any of the past interviews, you can see everything that I've recorded on my YouTube channel, it's all free. And there's like 60 plus hours of interviews with great experts like Dr. Corson here. And that's just on my YouTube channel under my name, Jill Carnahan. If you do go there and enjoy them, please subscribe so you stay updated on the new content. And this video, depending on where you're watching it, will either land on YouTube in a week or so or maybe you're watching live. Other background, if you want other information on blogs or things on my website, it's just jillcarnahan.com. And I don't often mention products, but if we do, you can find those on drjilhealth.com. So I am absolutely delighted to introduce Dr. Ann Folt Corson. She grew up in Southeastern Pennsylvania and obtained the Doctor of Medicine degree in 1982 from the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine in Philadelphia. She's been board certified in family medicine, just like me. Since 1983 and Integrative Holistic Medicine. So we have the same credentialing too. Integrative Family Medicine is a unique field that combines modern Western medical science, traditional herbal medicines and nutrition as informed by philosophies of ancient Chinese medicine. And again, we practice very similar too. What I'm sure with Dr. Corson and I both have seen is we have this wonderful foundation of Western science but then it's like our toolbox is bigger now that we're able to use all these other modalities as well to help people. And I don't know about you, Dr. Corson, but I find we need those tools, right? We need everything possible nowadays with a complex chronic illness. She approaches environmental, infectious, dietary, metabolic, biochemical, endocrine, immunological, structural, emotional and spiritual detriments to disease. And her practice focuses on identifying and addressing the root cause of each patient's illness. She has a solo practice in Philadelphia and we were both just saying before we got on here how gosh, the patients are coming out of the woodwork. It's actually really hard to keep up. I think that as COVID had people packed away, they're starting to come back out and realize how important health is. We're both just realizing the need to educate. And one of the things you'll find today, whether you're a clinician listening or a patient, this information is really, really important. She has so many awards, credentials, she's been speaking around the world. I won't read the rest of this here but you can find her and your website, Dr. Corson, where can they find you? AnnaCorsonandd.com, it's a very rudimentary website. So don't expect much from it at all. That's okay. Well, we are so delighted to have you here. So welcome and thanks for coming. And before we jump into the fuss about fiber and what this is all about, why it's so important to the people listening to if you're a practitioner or a patient. I would love to hear just a little bit about your journey is very, very parallel to mine with the family medicine and then the holistic integrative. And how did you get into medicine and how did you get into integrative medicine? Tell us a little bit about your story. Well, I come from a long line of doctors and for some reason it was my siblings, it was always me that was gonna be the doctor. Although at first I thought I was gonna be a neuroanatomist and so I sort of rebelled and went to graduate school neuroanatomy before turning around to go to medical school. But I just seemed to fall into that naturally. And the nervous system was my first love. So I was thinking neurology or something like that and I started out that way. But then I really found that that was very limiting. So I actually became an emergency physician and I practiced emergency medicine for close to 15 years, not quite. And then my only child got quite ill and it took me a couple of years to figure out what it was. And I remember complaining to a friend of mine one day, I can't figure out what's wrong with him. And he said, well, he's got Lyme disease. Look at the symptoms. I said, well, I've done the Eliza three times and it's come out negative, right? That's what the American Academy of Family Medicine really tells us to do. And so he gave me a flyer for a lecture that Dr. Joe Bristano was giving on the 3rd of May or the 8th of May. I can't remember quite, 2003 at the local high school here in Chester County, Pennsylvania. I went and I was just so enthralled. I learned more in that lecture than I had in years of going to medical meetings and whatnot. And so I realized that my son had Lyme disease in 2003. So I immediately, within just a little short time after that lecture asked Bristano if I could come visit him in his office because that's the way we learned things in medicine, he wanted to do one teach one, right? So he had to learn. And so he said, well, that's okay. No one's ever done that. I started the whole physician training program with ILADS. Wow. One to ever ask. And he said, you know, next week I've got somebody coming from Wales. And so David Owens came the next week. So I spent time learning with him. I had gone back, I went first in July and then went back in September of 03. Then a couple of years later, I went and trained with Charles Ray Jones in Connecticut. But man, I just hit the floor running in the summer of 2003 with Lyme disease and just started my own treatment. I've been an ER doctor and I've done primary care in family practice offices and work in its comp situation. I've helped in the OR and I worked ER. So I had a lot of primary care clinical experience. And so, but I found that these were the most complicated patients you could imagine. And then in 2004, I was a local psychiatrist by the name of James Shaller that was sharing patients with me. And he said, you also have a mold problem, Ann. I said, what do you mean? So he gave me a pre-print copy of Mold Warriors. So I learned about mold in 2004. So I started treating mold in 2004. And then I had a patient come to me and she put a bottle of Toxics on my desk, which is a fecana product. And she says, I don't know what this stuff is, but this is really good. S blank, blank, blank. She says, I took two drops of it and I was sick for a day and a half. So I said, look, I looked this up. And so I looked up the company and I started exploring all of these natural remedies. And I learned about German biological medicine and I also just jumped right in the deep end. And I went to all these trainings by Gary and Rain Klepper and some of these other people and got into sort of that Northern California naturopath community. And I just found my tribe. And so that was in 2005. So I learned about hypercardiability way, way back in 2005 from Gary Klepper, who learned it from David Berg a couple of years prior. So I just, again, I just hit the floor running and kept going. And I've just found a wonderful armamentarium of medicines and things to use for my patients. And then just have been growing and growing and growing all these years. And it's just been a blast because it's so much fun to help whole families get better, you know. Oh, what a beautiful journey. And it's so driven by, same as my journey by this inquiring and curiosity, right? When we hit, again, we've got a great training background and I have all the respect in the world for our allopathic training and medical school. And yet we ran into limitations in our own lives and it's like, what else is possible? And then what else is out there? And then we start to realize, oh, there's a whole nother world of ability to treat and help. And I feel like it's just the best way to really combine Western allopathic medicine with all of these other things because they really add, like you, I learned so much from my naturopathic friends. So hypercoagulability, let's first define it. But I just wanna say my personal experience, I've known about this, I've known how it correlates with Lyme and complex chronic illness like mold and COVID. And so I want you to describe a little bit about what does that mean for people who are lay persons, vibrant and hypercoagulability. But I will say, I felt like this is one of those really missing links in a lot of practitioners toolboxes to really understand how much this affects so many of their chronic patients. So, yeah, go ahead. It's so true because the issue of hypercoagulability is really often overlooked even by the most experienced integrative practitioners. People will often come to me after being to many people that I respect greatly and it's one of the things that's not been looked at at all. But unfortunately it's really present to some degree or another in almost every chronic legal patient and is present in acutely ill patients as well. So think about it, everyone's had the flu, right? Everyone's had a fever, a headache, body aches and pains, fatigue, nausea, insomnia, right? A lot of those symptoms can be exacerbated by the hypercoagulability that happens when there's any inflammation in the body, right? So an acute inflammatory response from a flu can also drive, it also drives the hypercoagulable fibrin producing response in the body. So whenever we acquire it, we have a brisk innate immune system response. Then part of that innate immune system response activates the coagulation cascade, which is this domino effect where the body creates more soluble fiber. And so a lot of these symptoms can be attributed to that. And acute or chronic innate immune system activation, heavy metal toxins, mold toxins, chronic mass cell activation, percchimer reactions, inflammation of any kind can result in the generation of excess soluble fibrin. Now, so what's hypercoagulability? Well, the body maintains this wonderful balance, this seesaw balance, very delicate balance is very redundant of proteins that either encourage or discourage blood clotting, right? This is a very, very complex and redundant system and it's very, very important because after the injury to a blood vessel, we need to be able to immediately plug and stop that bleeding, but we also have to stop the formation of that clot so that we don't make so much clot that we block that blood vessel and damage tissues, right? The update, excuse me, I'm in the middle of a big thunderstorm here. So if I get interference in my internet connect, I'm on an ethernet cables, hopefully it'll be all right. So you've got to be able to either plug or thin clot or unclot all the time. Now, when this delicate seesaw is in balance due to a genetic factor, an environmental factor, a toxin infection, emotional stress, a physical stress like a physical trauma, a surgery, something like that, then it can result in too much soluble fiber being made and not being able to degrade it enough, right? So when you can't degrade it enough, you end up being sticky and that's the sort of the sticky side. And so you have an abundance of molecules that are encouraging the formation of fiber and blood clotting over blood thinning. And so these are many different causes that can precipitate us into it. Well, what is actually soluble fibering, okay? So the coagulation cascade proteins are a series of molecular reactions that result in the production of fibering. Fiber molecules can either be soluble and free-floating in the bloodstream or they can become insoluble and cross-length and that creates a clot. It takes a burst of thrombin to actually cross-length them and make them a clot. They're kind of like interlocking Lego toy pieces. Okay, that's the clot. But generally in the absence of a tear and a blood vessel wall, you don't actually get that cross-linking happening, that burst of local thrombin that causes the interlocking. So you generally just get excessive soluble fiber and produce, right, in the area. And that creates a sludgy layer on the surface of the endothelial lining of the blood vessels. And just one micron, which is one millionth of a meter, thick layer of soluble fiber along the inner lining of the capillary reduces the diffusion of oxygen molecules out of the blood into the tissues by 500% with resulting tissue hypoxia. And that was referenced in a, Nemerson had given a lecture at a 2003 meeting. I can't find the original article, but the information about Dr. Nemerson, I can give you, but Dr. David Berg references this in a lot of his lectures that he gave over the years about hyperquaggability and it's a wonderful picture of the capillary, which we can show if you'd like. But so even a small amount of soluble fibrin in the bloodstream and that sludging can create very significant clinical symptoms. And most allopathic medicine doesn't even think about it until you've got blood clot. Right. A DBT. Let's talk briefly about the symptoms, because that's where people listening, it always in that for me, that's been a big, what would a patient look like that had an issue with this? And it's probably gonna be very non-specific, right? Because there's lots of. Right, and then after that, I'd like to sort of talk about the different ways the body deals with coagulation because especially in our current era, we need to think about platelets as well as fiber formation. So the signs and symptoms of the hyperquaggability. Okay, if you wake up in the morning and you're stiff all over your body or you've been sitting for a while and you get up and you feel stiff, if you're nauseated upon awakening or if your appetite's very poor in the morning, sometimes painful teeth or a sensation of the teeth being loose, having very poor aerobic exercise tolerance where you have post-exertional fatigue short as a breath of exercise and exacerbation of pain with exercise where your muscles just get so painful. If you have other kind of fatigue and issues with insomnia, let me just see if I'm missing anything, hold on. Brain fog, irritability, anxiety is a big, huge one. I often will treat hyperquaggability with anxiety with fibrolytic enzymes. You can have depression, you can have mood swings, a fatigue, generalized pain that could be utterly debilitating, kind of like I just hurt everywhere. Every time you touch me, I hurt because the tissues are hypoxic. You can have painful numbness or pins and needles, sharks having shooting pains, deep aching pains, especially in the arms and legs. You have limbs that fall asleep really easily or inability to, as I say, tolerate aerobic exercise with worsening of pain and fatigue after exercise. So an insomnia can be included in that and as well as restless legs when you're laying down trying to go to sleep at night and you just can't get comfortable and you just got ants and pants in your pants and you're restless and your legs just can't get comfortable. Often that's hyperquaggability at night. So those are sort of the major symptoms that people will have with it. Now what about the physical? What about headaches and migraines? Would you put those in that class or not necessarily? They can. That is very good to add that, especially with some of the side effects that people are now seeing after being vaccinated. The headaches and migraines can be a sign of sludging as well as serious clotting in the brain vasculature. So yes, thank you for adding that. Good. And so you talked about fibrin. You got the sticky blood. You gave symptoms and that would probably include this whole hyperquaggability, hypoxic thing. And then you want to go on a playlist. I kind of interrupted you. Do you want to go? What I'd like to do is I'd like to talk about what the physical signs are because people can see these in themselves. Perfect. As well as the clinicians that are listening can see them in their patients. So you know how people sometimes get modeled skin when they're cold and especially as you see that in babies and infants? Well, if people have chronically modeled skin, they may be hyperquaggable. They have cold, clammy extremities but they're centrally warm. They have very prolonged capillary refill in their fingers and their toes. They can have a very pale swollen tongue with scalping of the tongue edges from indentation from the teeth. That's not just hypothyroidism. That can also be splenic congestion, hyperquaggability. And then you can have a very doughy abdomen when you examine someone's abdomen periumbilical fullness and tenderness. And you can see generalized sort of soft tissue congestion as if the tissues are just sort of body. They say, well, you know, it's like I used to be able to see my tendons in my hands and now I can't even see them anymore. Often the head and neck can be very red or ruddy in color upon laying down. And then the feet when people are sitting can be really red or purple or purple when they're sitting on the exam table and their feet are just hanging. And then there's often a very significant compromise of cognitive function, not only with irritability, but emotional liability. Excellent. Yeah, I'm sure when I feel listening with your clinician or patient or resonating, especially if you've dealt with Lyman mold, I really think, like I said, Dr. Corson, this is such an important piece of many, many of our chronic patients. And I mentioned COVID, but any virus, especially an inflammatory virus like COVID can also be in this pathway as well, correct? Yes, that's correct. It doesn't have to be, but we'll talk about that a little bit later. I don't want to get it into it right yet. Okay, so now, how does the blood coagulate? There are three main mechanisms. Number one, if your platelet behavior and whether platelets have been activated to clump, and that's separate from the protein cascades that either make fibrin or break down fibrin. So it's platelet behavior, fibrin formation and fibrin degradation. Got it. Those are the three main mechanisms that are controlling it. Now, platelets will aggregate and stick in response to trauma to the blood vessels, in response to immune system activation by toxins or infections. And one of the problems with the spike protein is that it activates platelets. Yeah, yeah. It also damages endothelial lining. That also stimulates the coagulation cascade. So you've got two things you have to think about in this scenario now, what we're currently dealing with with the spike protein, both in natural infection and vaccination, is not only platelet activation and also fibrin formation. So the treatment for that is going to be a little bit different than what we would do for just someone who's got hyperquaggability from maltoxins or heavy metal toxins or some other issue. So again, it's always this physiological balance between formation degradation. Normally platelet aggregation is pretty easy to deal with. You normally use high dose essential fatty acids, vitamin D and sometimes baby aspirin, things like that. Usually you think of platelets being pretty easy to deal with, but the intensity with platelets aggregate, given our current issues that we're dealing with in our country, we have to be very, very aggressive about that. But we have to buffer both the fibrin formation and platelet aggregation. Are you recommending anti-platelet therapy for patients who either had long-haul COVID or post-vaccination issues? Yes, but primarily very high dose vitamin essential fatty acids, I usually try to get between three to four grams a day of a very pure omega-3 and then at least 400 international units of vitamin E and depending on their symptomatology and what else they need maybe a baby aspirin a day. You really have to block platelet activation. And unfortunately, the blood test that we do to evaluate coagulation, we used to be able to get platelet activation testing, but when esoterics was bought by lab where they dropped that test. So initially David Berg had set up PMAX and then esoterics bought it and then lab core bought esoteric. So you can get these tests off your lab core, but they drop the ones that indicate whether the platelets have been activated. And that's a real problem because nowadays we really need to know what to do. Yeah, right. I've noticed that too. It's hard to get the information that we need. Yeah, it's very hard. You can get your information about your fibrin formation and degradation, your thrombin formation and degradation. And you can get some clue as to the genetic issues that people have, but it's very difficult to get information about platelets. So it's safer to treat them as if their platelets are going to be activated. Good question on that. Cause obviously with like Crohn's or colitis or some inflammatory disorders, we see thrombocytosis, which for those of you who don't know, it's excess platelet production, not necessarily how they behave would just thrombocytosis alone also contribute to issues or we have to be the activation of those excessive platelets. No, whenever you've got too many cells, of course it depends kind of how you get, you can get all kinds of sludging and blockage. Yeah. Just when you have abnormally shaped red blood cells and you've got salchemia or you have babesia and you have some other red blood cell inclusion and the red blood cells can't squeeze through the capillary beds, you're going to have some problems. Yeah. So we've talked about the symptoms of hypercrime ability. We talked about the physical signs of hypercrime ability. Again, a good way to start dealing with it is again to really help with your omega three to six ratio. Most people in this country need very high dose of omega threes for a prolonged period of time. You really need to optimize your liver detoxification pathways, but you're not going to do that until you've got dysbiosis and what I'm finding is that the vast majority of people, at least in this part of the country where we have a great deal of glyphosate used in our agricultural areas, very around all around South Eastern Pennsylvania is that their lactobacillus has been totally wiped out. It's just not growing at all in their school tests. So we need to make sure that we are fixing that gut dysbiosis by trying to restore the lactobacillus. The best way to do that is so far on finding is to really have as clean a diet as possible to bind to get rid of the glyphosate that you have in the body. You have to replace the manganese and other trace minerals because manganese is very essential for lack of the cellist to grow. And then I use a very high dose lack of the cellist in order to try to replace that along with your normal prebiotics or whatever you like to use for lactobacillus. Yeah, so one of the patients who are listeners who don't know, glyphosate was originally just a mineral chelator and they found it to have this anti-urbicite effect but the minerals that chelates is also in our gut. So when they do the studies on the cells they're like, oh, there's no problem but it has a massively profound detrimental effect to our gut because it preferentially will chelate those minerals that are lactobacillus and bifidobacter probiotics need to survive. So thanks for mentioning that because I see that all the time as well. Yeah, and it's really horrible and to try to reverse it can be difficult in a long process. So, you really have to deal with that because as long as you've got all this toxic dysbiosis in the gut, you're gonna have all this nasty stuff heading up into the liver and it's very hard to normalize your liver phase one, phase two and all your detoxification if all this nasty stuff keeps going up every time you eat. So you really have to start with the gut and that will help to reduce the inflammation in the body and lower your risk of hyperquietable responses to things. Because the lower your overall inflammation in your systemic inflammation, the easier it's gonna be for you to weather these kinds of stresses that you've come across. And again, cleaning up your extracellular matrix space that's the fluid that bathes every cell in the body with this pulsatile movement that comes from the primary respiratory mechanism eight times and 10 times a minute which is bathes and soothes every cell in the body. And the best way to do that is to make sure you have adequate cleaning up of your lymphatic fluid, of your blood, of your kidneys, your liver, if any of the drainage medicines that you prefer, clean eating is the best thing that you can do. And so these are the things, adequate antioxidants, supplements that you may need, appropriate physical exercise, keep your blood moving and stress reduction. We're all living in a time where unfortunately a lot of people are very caught in that fear cycle. And if you're caught in that fear cycle, you're gonna have really increased cortisol levels. That in and of itself can create hyperquietability. So you have to learn to let go of your fear. You have to recognize, step away from this PSYOP that we're being exposed to and realize that you can have control over your life and your family's life and start taking positive steps. And I do believe that having some connection to a higher power in a spiritual way and putting your faith in that higher power and realize that good always triumphs over evil. And it's just gonna take a certain tipping point for humanity to realize that they have to choose the side of good because things are really gonna change. I love that you mentioned that because such a foundation of my practices, we know the physical and we know all these things, but these complex chronic patients that we both see, I always want to make sure that they have some sort of connection to higher power or whatever their belief system is in that there is hope and there is, because sometimes it gets so, if you're watching the news for one, it gets so heavy and so to encourage people to think on a little bit different plane can be really helpful, otherwise it's dark and dreary. You have to turn off mainstream media because most of the propaganda anyway, so you can't allow that fear driven because you're never gonna get better until you do that. So for me, many years ago, I was exposed to the practice of fallen dotha and fallen dotha is a meditation system of mind and body whereas you improve your moral character and do simple exercises you ascend spiritually. It began in 1999 in China and is spread all over the world. And so if you align with the basic truths that support all of everything in the universe, number one being truth, number two being compassion and number three being tolerance and forbearance. And the closer we align with those and the more we understand that those will always prevail over anything that's negative, then we can always have hope and ascend to a higher level. And that's the way you get better because so much of your illness is really comes from your emotional and psychological state. Yeah. So what else do we have on the, so we talked about fiber and we've talked about platelets, talked about the symptoms clinically and... See what else is I wanted to talk about. Treatment for sure. We talked just briefly about platelets, but you may want to... Yeah, again, let's talk about some of the consequences that happen when you have excessive soluble fibrin in the blood vessels and why it's such an issue. Well, if you have this sludge that's lining the blood vessel, number one, you can't get oxygen out. You also can't get nutrients out. You also can't get wastes back in for elimination and the lymphatics out in the tissues get all congested and they can't dump stuff and they get sticky. So you've got intravascular inside the blood vessels and extravascular outside the blood vessels spaces that are compromised and stuck and swollen and can't move things, it can't move toxins, it can't move nutrients, vitamins, growth factors, necessary minerals. And so you get organ and tissue compromised and that's why you have a lot of these symptomatology because especially your brain is very compromised. Also, when the vessels have that sludge, they become rigid and they can't respond to the autonomic nervous systems, constriction or dilatation orders that the autonomic nervous system is always given. So what happens when you have rigid blood vessels, you have alterations in your autonomic responses and control of blood pressure. So either these people have high blood pressure, they have difficulty controlling or they have what's called POTS, right? Because their blood vessels are stuck open and when they lay down, they're okay and they go to get up quickly and they faint because their blood vessels can't constrict rapidly to get blood to the head. So almost all of the patients that I see who've been diagnosed previously with POSCEL or the Alpha Static Tax Party Syndrome are mold patients who are hypercragable. Absolutely. Now does histamine play into the form, any sort of the coagulation cascades or any correlation with excess mast cell stuff with this or are they sort of two separate issues? I think that they are, don't ask me to tell you the biochemistry how they're connected because I don't know that but mast cell activation creates inflammation releases a tremendous amount of cytokines. That's also going to stimulate the coagulation cascade. So it's sharing too. Is exactly how is probably prostaglandin related or something because it's a perfect sense. I mean, we've been treating mast cell activation, Jill probably for years longer for anybody called it that because it was part of, it's part of the whole syndrome of inflammation that we've been seeing for years in those incredibly sensitive patients that can't take anything that'll explode anytime you try to do something with them, right? Right. The other thing that I wanted to have everyone know is that when you go to treat hypercragability you must take it low and slow because what's happened is when that fibrin has developed on the, let's put up one slide. I have, I can hit share screen. Can I view, I can do that. Let me pick what I want to use. I wanna pick a window. There we go. Okay, 22 slide 23. And I'll make sure that you have this. Okay. Now let's just, this is the way the blood's going down through it. Now this is that soluble fibrin is on the layer of the blood vessel wall, right? This is the endothelial cell here, okay? Now this is a real tight formation here of soluble fibrin and you've got all kinds of things stuck in here. So when you actually go to start releasing this all of these big bad boys like these pathogens and toxins and things down in here are gonna be released. So you're gonna have to be ready to deal with them as they're released. Also though, what can get trapped in here is thrombin. So thrombin itself can get trapped here in this fibrin sludge layer. There's no cross-link fibrin. This is all soluble fibrin but it gets locked down pretty tight. And so sometimes as you go to release this if you release it too quickly that thrombin will cause a paradoxical dramatic increase in the amount of fibrin formation that is made. So you've got to really take your time and do this slowly and just eat away at this as it depends upon how long people have been ill and whether they're, how much sort of gunk they've got and how many problems they have. Also, just to show you, this is the slide from the presentation from this Dr. Nemerson and I've adapted it from one of the lectures from Dr. Berg's permission. So here's the inside of the anethylial cell, the capillary bed. So a red blood cell is seven microns, right? So if you've got this fibrin which is only one micron here on the layer of the anethylial cell, it goes from two seconds per oxygen to go across in the absence of any fibrin to over five minutes if there's just one micron of fibrin there. So that's really a dramatic change in the time it takes for oxygen. And this is why people have pain in their muscles. This is why people can't exercise. There's a lot going on here. And this is in addition, you can stop the sharing now. You can stop, do I have to stop the sharing? There we go. Yeah, if you could stop it, I'll try it. Yeah, there we go. Okay, you got it? Yeah, perfect. Okay, we can see you again. It's another reason, not only do we have all of the mitochondrial problems because the mold toxins just stop the ribosomes and the mitochondria, the mold toxins also stop the ribosomes in all of the dividing cells that suppresses bone marrow function is all this stuff. You also have to worry about what the hyperquagability has done. So we've got all these different layers of problems that we have to deal with. When you go to detoxify somebody, say you're starting to detoxify mold, you're starting to take the toxins out of the body using the gut, getting into sweat a lot if they're able to, doing a lot of glutathione, or if you're using lipids or whatever you're doing. If you start to mobilize a lot of these stored toxins rapidly, you're going to stimulate a tremendous amount of hyperquagable response. A lot of the Hirksheimer reaction is actually people getting hyperquagable. Same thing with heavy metals. Heavy metals are just really badly toxins. And as you start to mobilize them from where they're stored, the matrix out in tissues, then it moved them through the bloodstream to the liver and out, you are gonna have a lot of issues with regulation being stimulated by those bad toxins as they're going through the bloodstream. That's why whenever you are treating Hirksheimer reactions, you need to include enzymes and not just fibrolytic enzymes, but also often proteases. Proteolytic, mm-hmm. Let's talk, we have about a good 10 minutes left. Let's maybe go a little bit to treatments and what we can do about this. This is so fascinating. And really, I'm sure the listeners and myself, and it's covering such a spectrum of our patients. I mean, I wonder if there isn't, if there is a patient that doesn't have some issue with this because it's inflammation, infection, toxin related. And I think that's all of my population. Yeah, I think almost all of my patients are on some kind of enzyme. That's the hole that I see in the vast majority of the patients that come to me from other practitioners. I agree, and I want to just again, because I'm so glad to have you here in your expertise and I have been doing this 20 years and there's many, many, many of our colleagues that don't really treat or understand this piece of it and it's critical, absolutely critical. Yeah, it really is. So there are two main fibrolytic enzymes. One is Navicinase and the other is Lumbrokinase. And unfortunately, there are many brands out there, but there are only a few that actually really work. And I don't know whether you want me to name those or not name those or tell you. Because this is all commercially free, if it doesn't matter, we can say what. All right, and I have no commercial arrangements with these companies at all, so it's not me. Really, I was taught this by Gary Klepper years ago and he's right. The Navicinase from Allergy Research Group, the soft gels, they have 36 and they have 100. I think they're discontinuing the 36, I wish they wouldn't. But there's soft. I start those people on that low dose, isn't it? Yeah, especially the kids sometimes it's bad. They, for some reason, are more effective. And I don't know what it's the way that soft gel is dissolved in the lower on in the gastrointestinal tract or not, but any of those Navicinases that come in capsules, they're just not worth their time. Now, there are some kids that have been too young to swallow even the small little football of the Navicinase. And so I'll use sometimes a combination, Natocerezyme, something like that, from like Designs for Health, or I'll use a capsule one and applesauce but use a much higher dose and hoping that I get it through the stomach, right? At least enough. Of the Lumbicinases, I'm terribly sorry, but only the Canada RNA brand named Blue Works. Agreed, totally. It's only when I blue kiss it. And I've been doing this for a long time. I started treating hypercrigibility in 2005, which is 16 years ago. I've had patients, and I've had a substantiated, I have a patient in England who had tried because it was hard to get, and she tried both the doctor's best and the algae research group, Lumbicinases. And she goes to see a good cranial osteopath. Well, each time she went off the brand named Blue and went to one of these other brands, the osteopath would say, your mechanism's all sticky. This is bad, right? So I've had other people substantiating. That's not the only example, but I've had other, you know, substantiation of the fact that, you know, that one particular Japanese made Blue is the only one that really works. So think about, well, how do they work? The narrow kinase works primarily inside blood cells. So that's gonna be really helpful now with our problems that we have with spike protein damaging anothelial cells, right? The Blue works both inside and outside the blood vessels and it's said to be significantly stronger. I don't know, there's times for me now, a kinase tends to work best and sometimes I use just Blue, sometimes I use both of them at the same time. The Blue, only about 10% of it is said to be absorbed through the gut. So I gave both of these on an empty stomach. Way back, you know, Klepper taught that, you know, these are hard on the gut. I rarely see anybody have any trouble with them taking them on an empty stomach. I would agree that I've had not at any issues and I have a lot of issues with gut issues, so. Yeah, and then people always wigged out, well, I don't know it, the natto kinase is derived from soy. Well, there's so little of any kind of soy protein in the natto kinase. I have not had any problems with people who are either an anaphylacid or allergic to soy, not having trouble with the natto kinase from the allergy research group. I just haven't, you know, I was worried about it and I say, well, you know, you know, I really like you just to give it a try and they just haven't had problems with it. Now, there are other seropeptivases. There are really good lots and lots of different brands of seropeptivases and things and things that you can use for hyperquietability. One that I really like is imported by Marco Pharma in Oregon is called Marcozymes, M-A-R-C-O-Z-Y-N-E-S. It's got some bromelain and other things in it, but for me, taking high doses of that several times a day for people who have been exposed to COVID, who have been exposed to vaccinated people and are worried about transmission of the spike protein to them, that shedding of the spike protein that a lot of us are worried about or the actual people who've had the vaccine itself that realize that maybe they did something they shouldn't have done. The Marcozymes seem to help to break up that spike protein as it's circulating if it's in the bloodstream. I don't have any proof of that. This is a purely clinical observation. So, and it's only one doctor's experience. So, you really have to take it with a grain of salt. But that seems to be helpful. Now, sometimes you need to use pepperon and I found that either the subcutaneous lobenox or an intravenous pepperon has always been far superior to any of the sublinguals. I know the naturopaths like the sublinguals because they don't have access in many states to injectable medications. Some states will do. Then there are a lot of other homeopathic herbs that work. Of course, I talked about the omega fats helping. They also help the blood vessels, the vitamin E, the phospholipids. The phospholipids can be incredibly healing to the blood vessels and again, really aligning. As well as certain herbs, there are herbs that help. Don Shen is a wonderful herb that helps with the coagulation issues. So, these are all things that you can use as well as the things such as a clean diet, lowering their insulin resistance, fixing their gut dysbiosis, fixing liver detoxification pathways, adequately hydrating themselves, appropriate exercising, reducing stress and all those things. Now, there are other herbs that can help. Ginkgo can sometimes help. Other anti-inflammatories and antioxidant types of herbs can help and there's so many that it's not worth trying to name them. Now, again, if the platelets are really activated, then sometimes you will need to use, I would use an 81 milligram baby aspirin a day with the high dose essential fatty acids. Now, some of the caveats to that are, someone has to undergo surgery. You really need to stop your omegas, your vitamin E and your aspirin or NSAIDs a good two weeks prior to surgery and you can restart them as soon as there's hemostasis at their surgery, like 48 hours if there's no bleeding or usually I have to listen to you the extraction, you wait till all of the oozing is brown in color and then they can restart those. I generally will stop the fibrinolidic enzymes only 48 hours before surgery and I've never had any problem with bleeding during surgery. Even if people have to go into surgery acutely and they're on these enzymes, then you just have to let the surgeon know so they may just have to hold a little longer but they'll still clot. What's really dangerous if their platelets are fully blocked by high dose NSAIDs or high dose aspirin and that's a problem. Yeah, no, I totally agree. I have not had issues and I usually just recommend patient stop before and there's no problem at all. Yeah, and they stop 48 hours before with the fibrinolidic enzymes and restart them again 48 hours later or if they have a drain, once the drain's removed or once the wisdom teeth, the drainage become brown and they really don't have any trouble at all with it. So do you keep patients on these for months or years or forever or just during the acute inflammatory phase or what kind of a timeframe are they looking at? Because I found you need them in chronic issues. They often stay on them for quite a while. They feel better. Yes, quite a while. And then if they do have one of the genetic snips, one in four people are really susceptible to mold problems. One in five are susceptible to getting hypercragable under stress of any kind. And the most common are protein S deficiencies, high lipoprotein A's, high alpha two anti-plasmids, protein C's. So if they have a significant genetic weakness which becomes obvious when you treat them, you recheck them and they still have a really low protein S, then you know that that's a genetic weakness and they may need to stay or they have a high pi one, plasma engine activation inhibitor one. They may need to stay on fibrinative enzyme to whole lives. Or they may need to always know to take them during periods of stress, any kind of stress, illness, injury, emotional stress, physical stress, those kinds of things. So it just depends. Some patients will need to always be on them in order to stay healthy. Some people will need to like, when people get a mold hit, they always have to get the enzyme because if they get over that, as quickly as they would if they don't use their enzyme. So killing the gut with things like restore and using your enzymes are as important as your things to reduce inflammatory cytokine and to bind the toxin to get them out of the body. So, you know, that's always in my mold hit protocol. So people need to understand it when to use them and that's part of what I teach my patients. Well, Dr. Corson, this has just been loaded with such great information and I just appreciate your work and being on here to get the information out. Because like I said, this is actually not common that not only our colleagues, but even patients understand. And this could be one of the most important things that we're missing. I really feel like this is so critical. And just thank you for your inquisitive nature, your curiosity, your willingness to continue to learn and grow like we all do. And just for coming here and bringing this great information today. So, so, so important. So much for asking me. I was very honored. I've been a mire of your work as well. So it's a mutual admiration society. We sort of work it, we are in the same circle. So absolutely. Yeah, and we all need each other. I always learn from my colleagues and friends with you too. You're from the same tribe. Yeah, yeah. Oh, thank you. Well, thank you so much. And everybody, I know this information has been really useful. I'll be sure and include links and link to Dr. Corson's site as well. And thank you so much for joining us on this Tuesday afternoon.