 Okay, hello. Good morning. Welcome to force around the world panel. My name is home food. Thank one of the organizers of false Asia The main objectives of false Asia somebody to bring people together From different communities different project across borders to share a change and collaborate We are here because we believe in the value of force and its impact on our life and the society In the panel today, we have four speaker coming from very different backgrounds We have two people represent the corporate side and two people here represent the community side and today We will find out how company and community can work together to scale and sustain open source projects around the world With that, I would like to start to briefly introduce our panelists. I I Would like to start with June O'Brien Who is the head of open source at indeed.com? He is passionate about enabling smart and meaningful Contribution to open source ecosystem by both developers and corporations Don't himself is a developer an archer coach a game tester a built engineer An automatic testing pacillist and he has been raising money for charity on and off for over 15 years Both as individual and as part of his job Actually, I heard about you from a lot of common connection between us I believe that we attended many conference together in the past but never get a chance to to meet in person You know, I Have the same sense that we have been in a lot of the same events But just have not managed to actually connect with each other So it was really nice to connect with you and be here across Asia Yes, thank you very much for for joining us to force Asia summit for the first time And I remembered it also your first time to Singapore. Yeah, it's my first time to Singapore as well So welcome to Singapore and to force Asia summit And my first impression about you what I would like to continue the conversation but I feel you are very approachable and Warm person so I can I feel that even though you work for a big company anyone from the audience So can just approach you easily and ask question and you really patient like try to sit down and explain to people How everything was so I'd really appreciate it and thank you very much for sharing and being here Thank you. I think it's important to share the information that we have from the company perspective and from our own Thank you. I'm going to need a hug later Haven't even gotten to you yet. It's okay Okay, it's next. I have very demerit Who is a system network administrator by day and a conference organizer by night just like myself He is one of the main organizer of force them the largest free and open source conference in Europe He has been involved in the organization of the events in 2005 He currently serve as the director of the not-for-profit behind the conference and Where as many other has within force them team So rarities not only our speaker. He also a volunteer here at force Asia summit Who has been very busy recording all the session here in this room the last few days for us? So thank you very much very it was an absolute pleasure to do so and welcome to Singapore and also Thank you. Indeed. It's my first time very happy to be here. Okay. Good. Very good Next I have Michael jang so Michael jang also where many other have He is He is a chain lawyer at raspberry by fanatic He currently supporting open sort program office at Facebook He is also a board member of open chain an initiative by the linux foundation to make open sort license Come lion similar and more consistent He is also a board member of the rap QL foundation But more interestingly you have a very international background Michael. You were born in Taiwan Great Currently based in the US spent over 10 years in China, Thailand Japan Myanmar Hong Kong What bring you everywhere? It's hard to say Maybe 10 years from now. I'll figure that answer out when I'm sitting in a therapist's office But I do like to travel so it is what it is. I actually just spoke at Fosdum a while back and Is it is probably my second time around the circuit? And so Dwayne and I just came from the open source leadership summit So I went to Fosdum. I went to a lot of other conferences. We went to the Linux Foundation open source and I came here and Yeah, we much we much prefer Fosdum Let's just put it that way Mike as compared to the open source leadership summit not yes. Yes, and and and this is This is completely off topic what you were asking me, but This feels much more like like home, you know the conferences like this right like at Fosdum They had the the bouncers at Delirium Cafe who'd asked you the questions and that was just the coolest thing ever, right? Which question did he get? so I Got I got the first three questions wrong and then they asked me Was the most what's what's the next stable release of Debian and I do raspberry pi stuff a lot So I knew that answers buster, right? But but the first three questions I got wrong because I'm not technical enough But at least at least I got it and it felt earned right it felt like I I belong Which was like like a very cool feeling So I think I first got into contact with you about two months before the boss I just remember when you said that Facebook is interested to find out more to learn about boss Asia and also the first time Facebook became one of our sponsors and I'd really like Michael in a way that when he communicate with us I don't feel that we talked to a sponsor So I feel that he'd like a community member so I can share with him anything I can tell him our difficulty and Talk openly about expectations. So this is something that I'd really like I did not expect company like Facebook would be so Open and collaborative. So thank you very much for me for being here. Thank you Okay, so last but not least Roland Turner Who I have a personal relationship who is not only my very good friend My very good colleague who have been involved who've been working we are working together in the fourth Asia Summit since 2015 He is in his daytime. He is the chief Drive-Ace officer for trust field where he is Responsible for the company's information policy and practices He is also a founding member of the hackers base here in Singapore. He advised and support multiple Entrepreneurs in particular the stack up leadership Singapore chapter Jfdi accelerator program DBS and NUS social venture challenge Asia He is a amateur radio operator with a particular interest in space Do I miss anything Roland? I do a range of things Okay, so really have a very interesting panelist here for this section So before I start with my first question, I would like to encourage you To openly share and discuss among each other, so you don't have to wait for the question So please feel free to speak to each other. I understand for most of you This is the first time we get to know each other as well Okay, so to Kick things off. I love to ask each of your speaker here to tell us What brought you to open source in the first place? What is your current role and response? Disability in the false organization or project that you involve with and finally Please tell us some things that most people don't know about you Yeah, so how about let's start with very What brought you to force them? What are your mad responsibility now in the organization? well, I started off in With the network team in Folsom Someone said hey come and join this event help organize it. It will be fun It won't take too much of your time That was a lie a blatant lie I've moved on through the organization doing many different things just helping out where hands were needed and Finally, well the last few years. I've been very busy doing video because well The scale of our event really calls for a very specific solution But I've also been doing many other things within the organization. I Partially do sponsorships. I do General question answering I'm still part of the program committee for some bits of the program that we run So that's why I wrote that I wear many hats within the organization and Yeah, so your question what brought me into open source is I Have been using a computer since the mid 90s, I think And as every child of the mid 90s in a Western country, I was given a Windows computer And I felt very unsatisfied with what I was able to do. I broke the thing many many times and I was trying to understand how the computer actually worked, but I saw that I was more working with a specific operating system rather than Understanding how the computer was was actually working So I was looking for something new and then I stumbled up on Linux and installed pretty much all of the distributions and Fence them I liked and kept on using that and that's how it all started and it felt very comfortable And then I learned and it's only then that I learned about The the principles behind all of it the the idea the spirit And the community feeling and I was absolutely charmed by it all. So that's why I stayed Before we go on to the next thing I'd really like to call out the Value that the FOSDEM video team provides for the wider community If if a conference wanted to pay to have all of their talks recorded it would be prohibitively expensive and The amount of content that your team makes available to everyone through your efforts is is really a tremendous gift to the community Thank you. Oh, you're very welcome We think it's really important to not only get the content at the event itself and Available to to a limited number of people but to allow remote participation lots of people can't make it to your conference So it's actually great that people engaged with your attendees through remote participation even we have Hacker spaces all around the world setting up Streaming events to watch the FOSDEM live stream together for those who can't make it to the event I think that's absolutely fantastic to see So happy to see that it's a reality Sure If I I'll try to rewind all the Questions in order as I can think about it. I Was starting my tech career as Linux was kind of exploding and I was very young in my career and I did not come from a technical background I at best I I say I came from a liberal arts background actually went to a religious college and so I Spent maybe the first two-thirds of my career feeling like I was trying to catch up to a technology curve that was just out of my grasp and and kind of in the a Very typical like pre open-source contributor mindset of I'm not smart enough to do this I'm not there's nothing I can add to the community, right? So there were a lot of you know Long nights chasing through dependencies trying to get something to work in the garage and and a lot of struggling with things but overall my Like participation in the open-source community was was fairly limited There was a I Think pre bugzilla. There was a bug tracker called mantis that You remember mantis I think That was my first open-source contribution to add a flag to make it work If installed on Windows NT so that gives everybody kind of a framework for where I was in my career And I was always working On things that were you know using a lot of open-source technology or adjacent to other groups that were doing open-source work But it wasn't really until I took the role at PayPal running day-to-day operations of the open-source programs office where I was helping developers get their work approved by legal and sort of Serving as the The open-source concierge or the open-source service man, which is kind of where the jumpsuits came from Trying to solve other people's problems that I really started to grow into the role that I have now Which is head of open source that indeed where I manage everything from the sponsorships and involvement to policy and Designing initiatives to encourage people to get over that hesitation that I myself had in the beginning of making their first few Contributions and getting a taste for it Yeah So I guess I got out into open-source You know as a kid in the mid 90s right it I think I was I was sort of I Mostly weaponized computers against my parents so it was just like Just fun to do that In all sorts of ways, and so I think that got me got me really interested in in Well as part of as part of that I also dropped out of high school I did a lot of other stuff But but but one of the things one of the things the benefits about Being alive in the mid 90s is that you know network engineering was very much a very lucrative job back then So I got into Linux through doing sysadmin and a lot of sort of back end in for in for a stack, you know Maintenance and so so that that's that's where Probably one of some of my contribution had to do with back-end automation things to automate it stacks and things like that I think I've always always been Interested in and I always had this view of the community But I've it wasn't until I sort of had more of a legal role that I Sort of came to appreciate the the benefits that it would bring right and I think I I see it as This kind of very unique Sort of community that that that that is actually Where that where that where the values actually Are more important than the leverage, right? Because a lot of communities are actually based on the leverage of You know may not necessarily be the side of the company, but there's other things right maybe maybe the the the purity of the you know the The dogma or some other thing, right? But but I think here the community is mostly based on certain values of openness and inclusiveness, right and and and I think I Think the way that's sort of You know the legal the legal rule the sort of license the way, you know The role that licenses play within that I think is really, you know can be weaponized That in a way that that can be depth, you know harmful to the community or it can be beneficial, right? and you know one of the things that I became more interested in is is is figuring out a way to To use the law use legal tools to safeguard the community, which is something that I find is very compelling But do okay, that's more or less Stormans sort of innovation with the Copy of their licenses, which is like okay corporate exists it creates an opportunity for Developers where they individually or in a corporate context to exert power of others and then he finds that after the objectionable And so yes, it's like okay. Let's construct licenses that have the the reverse effect. So yeah, this is part of my own Connection to this absolutely Did you mention your special something that people don't know about you There are so many things people don't know about me Special things, you know, I Let me think about that and we'll give give Roland his Opportunity intro and maybe everyone So I was a teenager during the 80s. So it was sort of Apple twos and CPM machines and occasional IBM PC running DOS When I arrived at university university had a an arm-dull mainframe running Unix Took me about 15 minutes to just play Oh my god, this is this is the real thing and so Pretty quickly, of course, I mean there's a much more powerful environment than what I've been accustomed to BDSes were fun and that's great But the the stuff that the Unix allows is quite extraordinary compared to the much simpler operating systems Custom to Pretty quickly, of course because this was at the time My the university had one central mainframe in the school of the science haven't have a Sort of a big sun machine a bunch of externals, but of course in both cases admin access was clearly unavailable and that met a whole bunch of things that Unix were to do were unavailable to us and so With some help from a staff member of Interesting involvement. We set up a program in society Which to my continuing astonishment is not only still operating itself celebrate its 30th birthday yesterday party in Sydney And so Yeah, we had by various ways got our hands on Many computers, but it's mostly some equipment and then by about 90 to both Torvald's early Linux was out and Jawats had released three six PSD And so quite suddenly in about the same year right on two different paths. It was possible to Run a full Linux full Unix ish system on a PC and That was mind-blowing and so Yes, the ability to Study the code to improve the code on my machine to show that stuff that was Really important as a rationale for open-source being important But over time the other thing that I began to become aware of was Storm and constantly Sort of expressing his philosophy in a variety of different ways began to notice that some of what he was saying resonated but they these sort of potentially severe power imbalance between individuals and large organizations and or commercial or government concerns me a lot and so the My perspective is not exactly the same as Stormans, but certainly very heavily lean towards the F more than the O And for that reason my work as a chief privacy officer my role is sorting out personal data protection issues compliance risk management and ethics in the context of analytics company that analyzes data about people in employment context and so I'm also talk later today about GDPR and how GDPR and software freedom are fairly closely aligned Remarkably close to that. So that's the pieces sort of fit together. But yeah, like most of us the path where it was going wasn't obvious until it happened What brought me to FOS Asia so Homebook and I guess Mario were running FOS Asia in neighboring countries Vietnam Cambodia. That's maybe yes And in late 2014 Hong Kong came to Singapore To explore the idea of running FOS Asia in Singapore you'd studied here, right? So she was familiar with the city, but Wanted to try running the conference here. And so she turned up at a weekly Networking open house, I think it's a better way of saying it at JFTLA which was a technology startup accelerator program that was running at the time Looking for people who are interested to support and we met. Yes, that's awesome. We definitely need to do that And of course this is for me an extension of having been part of the group that set up Hacker space here It's that same interest in being able to play The technology to sort of find people who enjoy doing that sort of thing and then to sort of encourage the normalization of that Events have overtaken us in 10 years of Hacker spaces operation The world has changed and Singapore has changed faster as usual And so it's less important to be sort of proselytizing that sort of approach, but the So the whole maker support Is sort of independent of Hacker space but there was nothing going on that was specifically pushing or encouraging development and understanding in both Prompt with the free and open source elements and so yeah, okay, this has fallen in my lab. How can I help and Yeah, the first bits of it were introducing Hong Kong to People who provide venues for the first year we ran we rented a Theater for the Friday track but within had a bunch of people at a box and we won just open their premises to us to Provide the breakout rooms. So I found I think all one of those Invited a minister to come and speak that was absolutely amazing Yeah, so Crawlin has also been a big supporter to other very important members in in the team So I know that whenever I have any problem the first person that we think of is rolling And you know that at one point we we talk and you say something that we never forget So I asked Roland why I use always like willing to have other people When do you get time for yourself? But even though he ran a lot of project himself and he told me that by helping other people I Can actually learn something new learn the new way to solve the problem in the more effective way So it's not for me. It's not a loss. So but it is again by helping other people and I never forget that So thank you very much to continue your support to to post Asia and the organization of the summit. You look And moving on it's always very fascinating to hear story of Everyone here. So I'm very curious. I try to talk to as many speakers as possible here for Asia But 200 people it's really not possible. So Michael and I yesterday. We thought about Let's sit now and and write together a book about people in open source So we hope that that will kick off in the next year or so Okay, so let's move on. Let us now talk about sustaining fossil projects So then the day before yesterday You have a talk about sustainable Project through sponsorship. I believe could you and I'd read something One article where you wrote the different the difference between corporate donors and corporate sponsor Yeah, so in the position of keeping our funding for the four projects Could you please explain a little bit about this and how what are your ideas or suggest open-source project? to sustain open-source project so for Context for people who weren't in the room for the talk that I gave a couple of days ago the sustaining fast projects talk centered around a thing that we're trying this year where The sponsorship dollars that we give to projects that we support are determined by people that indeed who make open source contributions So you make an open source contribution you vote on where the donation goes There's a lot more information about that. I'm happy to talk about it afterwards But it's it's really only Like a tiny piece of the problem, right if you look across all the conversations and all the The come the problems that have come up since Heartbleed and you know other projects in the intervening time that have expressed problems with the maintainer burnout and You know just a very small number of people who are doing a tremendous amount of work trying to keep core free and open source projects running Giving them money doesn't make more time. It doesn't reduce their burnout, right? And so the the long-term goal of the program that we're trying to build is Design we're trying to design the program that gets people inside the company more involved in the projects that we use right And contributing into those and helping pick up maintenance burden and so on there's a fascinating metaphor At least it's fascinating to me as I as I kind of look across the stage. There's there's two people from a corporate perspective There's our panel moderator and there's two people from the community and the corporate guys have two of the mics Right, so the community guys are sharing a mic between the two of them, right? And it's a it's a fascinating metaphor if you look at this is what we have to do, right? No, no, we have to be more involved as Corporate citizens in making sure that we're getting the community the resources it needs and sometimes the Means making sure that they have funding to run events and sometimes that means they have funding to pay for infrastructure Or to buy hardware if they need it, but more importantly and much more importantly it means that We are allowing our employees to help lift the maintenance burden for projects kind of across the board That's my we had Mario asked me why sort of you're this part of it a week or two back and sort of off the top of my head variance of that the What I suspect is occurring. I think it's going will keep occurring is that the interests of Businesses generally a larger organizations in particular will increasingly Effect what's happening in open source part of it is The engineers are simply sitting in sort of Corporate environments at whose interests in having an efficient way to produce software well suited by having people in their teams Contribute to the sort of low-level non differentiating stuff rather than The whole multi-metered here problem and go and build a low-grade one internally that's more costly worse less reliable less capable, etc The other 63 or 4 but The other big one is that software is eating the world and That that don't know it will continue to shape various things for I would imagine a couple of decades at least That means that the demand for engineers within organizations is going up and particularly the demand for engineers time So this thing the point about money doesn't provide a solution to burn out What does is corporations being able to reshape job roles to allow those support functions? Maintenance particularly the drudge work that people would rather sort of just get done on a payroll than Forget that spend their weekends doing So partly it's here. Let's encourage Organizations to do it, but partly I suspect that the recruiting interests Corporations will encourage exactly that behavior and this I'm sort of as far back as the 2000s with Google hiring Andrew Morton And I asked him at the next conference right of that year So what are you doing at Google's as well pretty much the same thing I was doing before You know just cool Andrew Morton's a Google. Sorry Linux kernel antenna And so yeah, you're fixing code connecting people Occasionally doing a talk for Google, but mostly just doing the stuff he was doing and so that Google was doing a decade ago. I suspect that many more companies are now having to do Much lower down the sort of picking order be like simply because They need to you know, it's recruit I'm gonna hand the mic to you and stop talking the thing that I that I want to drive us toward as an entire industry is less thinking about hiring that that one Like really well-known open source engineer and more about getting all of the engineers Doing a little bit of work on all the things that they touch kind of all the time, right? I think the the net lift we can get that for it will be much more significant and much more beneficial to solve the problem But it's it's gonna be slow to get there. It's gonna take time But that's that sort of working down the picking order if you like that the what was ten years ago I sort of get a high-profile guy to demonstrate that Google was serious. It is now turning into help How do I get engineers to work for me? So that I think is happening Starting to happen by itself. It'll develop at the time So during this wasn't the script we agreed on when we were sitting in our back rooms with our cigars So I totally agree with with doing that For larger companies engagement really means bringing Anything and everything that a project needs, right? And I think that's what doing was saying right, which is not always money but deep organizational change, right and I think one of the things that My organization has been struggling with is how to equate like GitHub stars to Money that we pay our engineers, right? Because that's that's really putting your money where your mouth is, right? You can't you you're not actually incentivizing people to move up in the organization if you're not awarding them monetarily for For contributions, right, but figuring out a good way to do that figuring out a way to do that That's meaningful as much is very very challenging and not easy to game. Yeah, it's very easy to game And and and so that's that's something that we we would like to work on right to have full-time people work on open source and things like that but I think When I think about the sustainability problem, I'm actually very optimistic because I feel like I feel like there's a lot of Possible solutions out there, but I feel like I also feel like that, you know, and this is sort of what my talk was about but I feel like as Open source moves more into the mainstream. I think people that The overwhelming majority of companies don't do open source and people in the community engineers as we as we as we sort of train engineers to talk Talk more sort of to sell better sell open source I think I think I think there will be more adoption at a wider variety of companies And I think that's only I think that's biggest one of the biggest parts Sort of reservoirs of untapped potential to spread adoption right is to spread adoption of it You know in a way that that that sort of infects more of Sort of corporate corporate interests where we intertwine them with corporate interests But at the same time the key is of course maintaining our values while we're doing that So very so I want to ask a little bit about the Fossum conference. It's been around almost 20 years Yeah, how do you sustain? the conference and see there any Challenges that we could share with our partner here that we could they could support you in the future so How does Fossum sustain itself? We have Two well two major sources of income one is of course sponsorship So if Facebook would want to sponsor you'd be very welcome to you Just putting that there And the other one is the one that we really really value the most because it is By our community we ask for donations Voluntary donations and you get a t-shirt in return for your kind donation, of course but About half of the of the income of Fossum is Made by the community the conference is completely free to attend. It's completely open. There is no registration You just show up walk into a room attend the talk be there engage with people holding a stand We don't care who you are or where you come from Just be there and enjoy yourself and Getting donations from the community is really important for us in as it Really shows how much people value what we're doing and what we're providing and We try to well run a very tight show So we try to spend well every year that we spend we look at it twice before we actually do it We're entirely volunteer based and no one gets paid to to organize Fossum Which obviously reduces cost So that is that that is how we how we work The most challenging parts of it all is actually Trying to Convince sponsors of the value of Fossum because one of the things that we do what we do tell our sponsors is that We're sorry. We're grateful for your contribution, but we cannot offer you any anything in terms of content there is No sponsored talks at Fossum a sponsor can have a talk But that is completely unrelated to to them being a sponsor the program committee and the sponsorship team are There's an air gap between them and that's it's there for a reason Sponsor people do not talk to the program team as to not influence anything Same goes for stands We offer sponsors The most visibility we can without intruding into the content So we'll go as far as you know showing your logo saying thank you in the opening talk and in the closing talk but that's pretty much it and We see that the sponsors that we get Actually get that message and truly want to want to support the community and They don't really care about Being present with five or six recruiters and you know talking to people to you to find jobs No, they want their engineers to attend and their engineers to enjoy a conference with great content and Participate in that way Druling, how about our situation here at Foss Asia? so within This is a permanent discussion with variety of trade-offs One of our bugbears has been catering We don't have we have either no registration or free registration. We can't cater to it. We don't know Actually, how do you do that? Just go to the cafe yourself or what's the so we don't provide catering on-site? So I mean I'm amazed by the abundance of food everywhere almost everywhere I walk I walk into has some kind of drinks or food or whatever It's pretty cool to see but no we don't provide food to our attendees So we have a we invites food vendors street vendors Okay, so that that might also be part of the sort of expectations here Our schedule also very nice so we try to make it as convenient if possible to the attendees Which also depends on the financial situation of each year So when we get more supported we try to offer the maximum convenience for the people And those I want to roll into explain a little bit between the trap between business and community. So we Running for a show. We want to have the image of we want to welcome not only the developer Of course, so we've become but also enterprise. So that's the idea to bring people from different fields together so So that's a conscious choice that the That's just the engagement with the diamond The most extraordinary form of that so far And perhaps it's part of your Pursuing corporate adoption, but it is we're dealing with responses not merely as sources of cash or that's pretty damn important But also as a very of my other comments that the the progression Certainly the next decade or two for open source Quite about free software is going to mean deeper engagement with With large corporations because that's where the money is that's where the jobs are that's where the engineers are going to end up being for most of their careers and so there's everything from the very light interaction we're having with Facebook this year to the Multiple sessions a consultation and a separate dinner that occurred with time of clientele For two years actually ahead of them forming an internal open source division which for an old-world manufacturing company is a bit of a change in culture So, yes within Fossager there's a conscious drive to engage with corporates as Partners and almost targets if that's the right word but as because these it is partners not in something involuntarily, but it's to Directly assist in that program that process that I think the state that we need to or want to get to is to To stop thinking about The the corporation in the community and start thinking about the community Corporations don't join a community people in a corporation join a community, right? Corporations don't sponsor events people write checks to sponsor events and so on and as long as we continue to To frame the thinking around, you know, there's the people from the corporate world, and then there's the community It maintains that division Where we can think about like we are members of a community now There are good reasons that the community sometimes looks at, you know corporate decisions or corporate participants with skepticism Companies do not always act in the best interests of the community. They often act in their own best interests And I think it's the responsibility of people who run open-source program offices of who share knowledge with each other To make sure that their companies are showing up as good members of the community and most of the people that I Know that are involved in those efforts have that very much on their mind. It hasn't always been the case You talked about how sponsors for for posthum they don't get special, you know Treatment as far as getting, you know talks placed and everything else. We've had that here this year one of the one of the sponsors was Pressing for what was very clearly a product pitch for a closed-source product like that. That's no, right? That's I don't think that's good behavior on on the back on the behalf of the company, right? But not everyone in the company in any given company kind of gets it and there's if you look at like So the closest thing probably a typical corporate events team has to Think about When looking at the community events in posthum and posse Asia and freedom source events It's trade shows and it's more normal at something like a trade show that you write a big check and you get some time Right, of course We always end up talking to marketing because it looks like a trade show exactly and it takes a lot of education to Get people there. So You know For people who run programs or involved in open source programs Continuing to do advocacy for the community that is a key part of the role And it's something that you're leaving out of your role then Thank you, so I think that we only have a few minutes left I would like to open the floor to the audience if you have any question for our panelists About open source how to sustain open source Projects conference, especially questions from Michael who doesn't want to take the microphone No, okay, so Then I would like to Get back to the panelists for the final questions. So what would be the one action? Every person here in the audience can take away when they leave For Asia today I'll jump right in and give everybody a time to time to think about it There is something that you can do today to make a difference for a conference for an open-source project for a community event for community space that you've been You might not even have even recognized it But you may have recognized it and felt like it was outside your reach and maybe that's going back to your company and Just asking someone for the first time. Hey, I think we should sponsor this or Maybe it's finding that project that you use all the time that you've you've never opened an issue on or never gone and tried To participate in the thing. There is something everyone in the room is capable of doing That they may have been hesitant today There's the only thing that is stopping you from doing that is sort of your own hesitation I encourage you to find those if you can't find them come find us and we'll help you find opportunities to get I Would like to you know tag on to that Many of you have probably written some software I have been guilty of that too And thought that it was not really relevant for other people. It may not be, you know Very special or it may be very specific to do a task But just you know consider releasing it as open source. I mean it may be sitting in your Backer on your backup drive somewhere doing nothing, but it may be of interest to someone So don't be shy and just you know publish it. Don't wait until you think it's perfect It is much much more important to release it as soon as possible so other people can you know, maybe Help you find your way and improve your project as you go Sort of very into those and came up with a friend in Cindy who's a bit sort of bummed that he's realized That what he's trying to do was too complicated before we can't get it done sometimes the hesitance Arises just because you've set the scope too big And then this is with starting anything at all. Okay, fine. You can't jump across a canyon in one step what Start with a small or subset Eat one piece of the elephant at a time so if it's if you're in that situation just pick something a little bit smaller and get it done whether it's a Conversation with a colleague or a quest for an employer or a bug fix or bug report or documentation collection or whatever it is Pick a small thing and do it and then you Don't have anything really unique to say But yeah, I think I like what was said about not differentiating between The community and the corporate in the same way we spend so much of our lives at work Right, so I think that the one the one thing on top of everything, you know I think I think the action is to do something but I think I Think beyond that I think it One thing that I would think would be really helpful is to take the energy and the community that we have here right and in a sort of Kind of a creepy way start spreading it at at work, right? Where we're you know look at the people at work as people yet to be converted, right? and And start there right because there's a lot of people there who who who could be interested, right? And we spend so much time there and that that's what I think It starts with one of the actions that we talked about here. Okay, so that is all the time that we have Thank you very much for your participation Thank you audience for joining this action Enjoy the rest of your