 So I'm going to call the finance committee meeting of December 20, 2022 to order at 3pm. And this meeting is being held. Promotely pursuant to chapter 20 of the exit 2021 is extended. And all members of the public who wish to access the meeting, they do so via zoom only, or by telephone. Knowing person attendance of members of the public will be permitted. But every effort will be made to ensure that the public can be adequate can adequately access the proceedings in real time where technological means. And also want to remind everybody that this meeting is being recorded. So, with that, I'm going to just confirm that all members of the committee present. And we know that one member is not present and not going to be able to join us and that's Michelle Miller. But I'm going to check with everybody else to make sure that the connections are solid and you can hear and we can hear you. So, present. Present. Present Bernie present. Kathy. Yes, here. And Michelle. I'm sorry. Lisa present. And Michelle is not present and won't be present so we're here and I want to just start by pointing out what I pointed it pointed out several times before but for members of the public to make them to make everybody aware that there's a number of issues that were put into the agenda. And the reason that that happened. It's a very complete agenda, including some items that we do not need to discuss is that the timing was that since the last meeting was last Thursday at three o'clock which was exactly to business days before this meeting. It had to be posted before the beginning of the meeting. So we couldn't figure out what is going to be an essential matter. The important items. Obviously the budget guidelines were adopted last night. So that's therefore not being to be an issue. We want to talk a little bit further about the sewer regulations. We want to talk about the Hickory Ridge order. Those are the major items. And then we may want to talk a little bit about the special act on residential property transfer fees. So I'm going to focus, make that briefing process. The hope is is that we can conclude this meeting and the goal is an hour, sort of using the last night's council meeting as a model for how one can be efficient and running a meeting and getting it done in record time and thank you for that Lynn. I noticed that Amy is present. Let me just ask Sean one question and that is, is Dave Zomac attending. So I've reached out to Dave, I think he was planning to but I wasn't able to connect with him today. So if, if he's not here, I can speak to the Hickory Ridge agenda item but I'm going to try to see if I can get him here. Before we discuss that item. Okay, I did have several questions about the order that I did not ask last night because I wanted to just save those for the committee meeting. But let's start to just ask members of the public. If you wish to make any public comment public comment can be about any matter that is any relevance to the committee whatsoever because not that you need to be something that was listed on the agenda. Thank you for discussion, and we welcome public comment at every meeting so if there's anybody who's an attendee who would like to comment to the committee please raise your hand so we know and can bring you in. Seeing nobody has indicated that they wish to make a comment today. So let's proceed to the, the sewer regulation question and Amy Rasecki, who's the assistant superintendent is here. Hi Amy. So you are going to come back to us if there was any further information about insurance and whether insurance might modify your prior projections about rates. So, do I have that correct. Yeah, and I don't know Sean if you want to at least. Do you want me to start start and I'll fill in from there. Yeah, so. So we're working on a memo for the committee as requested last time that sort of summarizes the process today, and as a, you know, a better comparison of sort of pre implementation of regulations and post implementation of regulations. I think Kathy you asked for sort of a side by side chart that showed that so. So we have that pretty much together. We met with an insurance company last week that to talk about the issue of a townwide policy, not one for residents but one that the town would purchase on behalf of all residents. And when so we met with them. I think it was last Monday or Tuesday, maybe it was Tuesday. Amy I forget. And they were working to get us a quote before today's meeting, but unfortunately they did not get some follow up questions for Amy and Guilford which they've already responded to but we weren't able to get the quote for today. But when we did speak with them, they, they did say they do have some new programs that might be more along the lines of what we're looking at. Originally, you know they said their normal pilot program is that they ensure broken pipes, you know when something breaks they come in and they can pay for that but they did say that they have a couple cities that are doing a more proactive approach like what we might be looking for there's some regular amount of regular replacement each year or if we find you know when we do roads if we find, you know, lead pipes they would cover some of that replacement. So they were going to give us a couple different quotes for different tiers of programs that we would then incorporate into the memo that we're going to share with you. So apologize that we didn't have the information for today but we should have some additional information for the council to consider definitely before your next meeting. I'll put it all into that memo so you can see everything. The one thing I'll just say is, you know, at this point, even the numbers we share with you. Last time I just want to stress that they are still estimates we're not setting water and sewer rates right now. We won't set those until the spring we're really just trying to convey that the water and sewer rigs as currently drafted, they will likely have some significant financial impact on the enterprise funds that will boost up the rates. If we can find insurance program that is less expensive we will pursue that. And but just just want to make sure that you know that that's sort of an estimate at this point it will likely change by the time we come back to you with actual rates in the spring. But we will get that memo out to you soon as we have that information. And we thank you for for Bob in particular for sort of stressing, you know, some of these programs for us to look into. We're looking into it. Appreciate it. So, question that I have is the rates in would are being affected because of the change of who's responsible for repair of sewers sewer lines within the right of way. If we didn't make that change, then the, is there anything in the bylaw that really affects the, or the, or the regulations that affect the rates. I mean that's the largest part of the change right with within the sewer rags but within the water rags there are some other things that would have some impact on the rates correct. Yeah, I mean, as you're looking at the sewer rags the only thing that's really going to impact rate setting is that ownership issue because that's the one thing that's a change, you know a major change from what we're doing and what we have to comply with on a state and federal level anyway on the water side. The only other, you know, kind of major financial difference is the ownership of water meters where right now the town owns the smaller water meters and the larger ones we've had the customer own it. And now the problem with the customers owning it is just, you know, when it breaks sometimes they're really kind of drag their feet on getting a repair, and that sort of thing, or they're you know not as good at getting them calibrated on an annual basis that sort of thing. And so we just want to own all of them and then we can replace them when needed we can calibrate them on a regular basis and make sure that they're all operating. And that's going to be directly reflected in the, the quarterly like rental fee that you pay for a meter. If that's not going to impact residential people it's going to be people with the larger diameter meters that will see a change a slight change in their meter rental rate to reflect the cost. Thank you. Kathy. Thanks. Andy actually asked most of what I was going to ask about this issue but I want to make sure when we get the estimates back from you, Amy and Sean that we keep this as a separate issue in case we want to go forward with all the rags except this ownership change. We want to wait a year so it's just, you know, identify it as separate. So my question is about a couple years ago during Bernie and I on behalf of the committee, actually after a presentation from you all from a consultant talked about going up on that quarterly rate for that was by meter size to be thinking of it it was prepayment for capital costs, and it was, we wanted to see if we could structure it in a way that it mainly hit large users, and in this case it would be the the colleges and universities, you know, and, and so it was a question that you were going to take a look at coming back up with some what ifs, you know, and I didn't know whether that went to a back burner because one of the issues what I remember is you didn't. You didn't have a data system that made it easy for you you were doing some manual things that allowed you to look at this so. And I don't think we should be doing this now but I would like to put that into the mix of how we are thinking about these rates. So again, I think, when we talked about it, if we were going to do anything we would have to do it. Announce it a year in advance so UMass, Amherst, Hampshire, you know the big users would know what was coming. So, first was keep it separate when we get them out and second was what happened to that other idea. So, so any okay if I jump in on that other idea, Amy and I have worked together on that. So we have the data, we have sort of the first piece of information that's needed for that. I think that we were calling it a water rate analysis and looking at our structure and seeing if we want to explore different structures. So we were able to pull out information that showed usage by account that we could total so we and the reason why that was important was that way we could say, you know, we could say if you use this much. During the year you build at this rate if you use this much will be built at a different rate and also apply different meter charges or fixed charges to those accounts so so we do have that initial data set to run different scenarios. So the one thing that I know Guilford was looking into was, and this might be from prior conversations. The thing we don't have is, you know, if we wanted to look at models where owner occupied properties paid a different rate than occupy residential properties. That type of information is not in the data set in a way that is reliable. So he was looking at some of those other pieces at working with Mike Warner and utilizing GIS and some other data sets to see if he could pull in that information. I don't know if at this point that's necessary I mean we may be able to just run some basic models to with what we have to see what it would do. So, so that's a conversation we can revisit when, you know, when we have time to do it as a group because I think we had a working group with, I think Bernie and Kathy you guys run the working group with us to look at that so we can reconvene Okay, and just for people who weren't, I can't remember who was there on what cycle, but I can find that memo again and we could just post it so what we were talking about because I think Bernie my memories we focused mainly on the quarterly rate less on the, the volume of use rate because we were told we're already low users, we were trying to shift. Yeah, looking at the quarterly rate, looking at I think the other thing we talked about was balancing the quarterly rates against meter size so that the larger users paid more and took some of the burden off the smaller user. And we were really trying to do it in a way that it was either neutral or saving for the smaller, you know, the small the small meter size folks. So in any case that was, it was a framework of thinking could we shift it, shift some of the capital costs actually prepaying some of our capital costs was part of the argument for this. Okay, I'm so I'll stop. Well and as I recall Kathy some of that was also just looking at right now like especially during the pandemic when all the water users left, all the sudden, our water rates being only based on how much water you use it meant that our revenues were really low for a couple years and so it was, you know, finding a system that, you know, we've got fixed costs how can we have a little more fixed income and have it less reliant on how much water the reality is cost isn't, you know, incremental to the amount of water that we produce. That was, that was a piece of it that will continue whether the, you know, we're in pandemic or right in America or not. So, yeah, trying to like, you know, so it gets these correct we're trying to prepay some of our capital costs, but also stabilize a revenue source some will never quite. I don't know what we could do that 100% but we could absorb a little bit of it. Andy Lynn. So, I'm feeling like this is starting to get even more complicated. Okay. Because it's rested with finance TSO and GLL. I think those are the three committees. When we get it all together, and we're ready to bring it to the council. We need to, I've said this before and we've started looking at when can we do this, we need to have a, I don't want to say public forum but a community forum, where we roll out the plan and the anticipated impact on residents. I just want our staff and the finance committee, as well as, you know, a couple of us, a couple of you, particularly Andy serves on TSO. While Michelle's not here she serves on GLL to think about what it is. We want to make sure is part of that presentation. And it's a presentation about the changes in the bylaw, the changes in the cost, and the timeframe for implementation. Okay, thank you. Yeah, I think. Yeah, this is caught up in committees plural. And while we're all taking some time to debate this, my concern and curiosity is, how's this impacting our keeping up with the requirements for Nipty's permit permits plural. Are you just asking how we're doing on the water and sewer side in terms of keeping up with permits. I mean, we're, we're fine, but you know we're maintaining permit but you know some of the stuff in these regs will give us a little more teeth to be able to, I guess do a better job with stuff like grease maintenance where yeah we're surviving but our guys are spending a lot of time doing, you know, maintaining the collection system because we don't have as much teeth right now to try to manage the grease is, you know, the grease problem, like we would like to. Okay, because what I, you know, again, if our discussion of fees is going to get in the way with our compliance with the EPA and state regs, that's, that's troublesome that could be costly and more ways than one. Can I follow up on that, Andy? I'm just on a, if there's a part of the same me that just should move forward that is not about this other issue, including grease. It seems to me, when it was what you were saying is the form is about the other bigger change but I think those are separable if we decide to separate them so it goes with Bernie's question there's a part of this that is just good management, and we need to make some of these changes, as opposed to the ownership change which is a big, it's got a cost consequence but it's also a big shift. It's not required to get the grease out of the traps, in the same way. I'm just thinking that even that form should be able to separate the two to say some of this could go on the books not tomorrow we have to vote it we just have to make sure the wording is right, and it doesn't have to swirl around committees all of this time. And the other is more significant change. So, as far as residents are concerned. I'm sure grease traps matter for restaurants. Yeah, I mean, this is actually also part of that is this more complicated and that is, you know as I was putting together material for the state of the town address. I think it was back over previous agendas and so forth and I think it was toward the middle, maybe summertime of 2021 that we passed to other bylaws that were related to water and sewer and we were asking questions then about their financial impact. I don't know whether they're acronyms or their correct names. Okay, yeah, but what my ask my question is, is, does any of this relate to impact that or get included in that. That's a good question and those are actually, those are separate so that was, believe it or not it was the other infrastructure in town it was storm water. Not water and wastewater and that is a, you know, federally mandated, you know by our nip dee's permit for storm water regulated and so those we had deadlines that they had to get passed by certain dates. The regs now the water and sewer regs as are before you. So some of it is just kind of codifying our current practices, and some of them are also saying here's all of these federal and state regulations that I'm being held to the water department and the sewer department are being held to that you know we need to make sure that the, the homeowners and the businesses are doing their part. Okay, at the end of the day we can still kind of because of the state regs we can still kind of hold people to stuff. But it's better to have it in one place because I want everyone to know what the expectations are not having to, you guys don't have to be water and sewer experts. But I know you want to do the right thing. It's all going to be written there. Thank you. We're trying to modernize the bylaws to make them both read as they should because they're quite old and they were, they've kind of been pasted together over a number of years and they're not a consistent code so they're hard to follow hard to find. And we want to make our regulations readable and findable by all. And that's an advantage there, whether most homeowners will think it's an advantage is a different question. And when they find out that there may be a penalty that's attached if they throw things into the toilet that clogs the system and their consequences for them for doing the wrong thing. They may not like that. The question that one customer in particular raised about the, the street and the expense that she was incurring which was, I think on the water side was really where we were what we've been doing a lot of time on this thinking about who's responsible and how the welfare is under the right of way. And, you know, people are going to have to pay a little bit more. It's kind of like buying insurance, except the insurer is the town, unless we pass it on to another insurer. But they're getting the benefit of not having to incur a potential cost that is high by paying a lower amount in their monthly bill that shifts the responsibility and how and whether that how they grabbed that I don't know. I don't think there is anything else we can do today or we on hold now for until we get more information on the insurance and how that might impact rates. I think we're on hold now but we do want to bring it back. Sort of as soon as we can so you know we probably won't meet again before the holidays but thinking about, you know, whatever that first meeting is that we would normally have in January. And having it ready to go because I know that there is urgency in the public works department to get these regulations through and moving forward so we don't want. We'll send up even if we don't have a meeting scheduled we'll send the memo out for people to review and process as soon as we have it ready. Okay. Anyone else that anyone wants to raise on this issue or ask Amy at this point. Seeing no hands going up. Amy, thank you very much. You've, as always been very informative and helpful and enjoy the holidays. Yeah, happy holidays to you guys and thanks as always for continuing to move this forward because this has been a pet project of mine for a long time, so I know. I want to get it done right. Yes. Bye guys. Hi. Okay, so Dave. So mech is here. I don't know for the benefit of our resident members of the finance committee who are not counselors and we're not at the meeting probably last night at the point where we had the presentation. I can't remember. Thanks, Bob Matt and Bernie were you there during the presentation regarding this. I don't know Dave if you want to just give a very brief summary of what was happening and then we can get into the, which then introduces the order. Very briefly. As part of the work we're doing to develop a gray ridge into a community resource trails have been consistently one of the main features that residents would like to see there. As the council knows I'm developing with my staff a comprehensive plan that will include a number of potential avenues we can go down for the development if you will, the utilization of Hickory Ridge solar is already underway there they will break ground on the solar in January this is amp energy, but the trails we we staff as we often do went out and began to look for funding outside of the town of Amherst. We're fortunate to have some funding for trails coming through CPA that's $120,000. And then we applied for what's called a park grant through the office of the EOEA the executive office of environmental affairs has an annual park grant application and we applied for funding through that office for $280,000 and we were successful in getting that. We've looked at the property, we've looked at the assets of the property the limitations of the property the opportunities we have there without compromising any of the future uses of the property including potentially a South Amherst fire station, affordable housing community center and the list goes on. So we identified a place on the western portion of the property for an accessible trail. The trail would be quite simple, it would take advantage of already existing trails that are there for the old golf cart the golf, excuse me the golf golf cart paths. And we would improve some of those with crushed stone benches, kiosks, signage, etc. Together this would be about a $400,000 project. We have to go through extensive permitting of course because it's close to the river and in resource areas. And we need to come before the Council for two reasons one is that when you receive a park grant you do need to designate a portion of the property you were improving for essentially passive recreation. That's the carrot in the stick. The state gives you money, but they would like you to make sure that the town doesn't do something else with that portion of the land in the future. And then the second part of that is to is to hold on one sec. I have this up is to transfer. I want to get the language right here is to appropriate and transfer the funds for this purpose. So the, the Council has already appropriated the $120,000 in CPA funds, and the other $280,000 is coming from a state grant so there is no new money involved in this project. The state wants to make sure through a town council vote that the packages complete that the town has committed all of the money to go toward this project. So those are the two steps outlined in the order. And if, if, if there are any questions I'm happy to take them. So let me divide the questions into two parts. One is about the project and the others about the order. And why don't we do the project if there are any project questions first to add to do those and then do while we're doing that Sean get ready to put the order on the screen. When we get to the second set of questions would be helpful to be looking at the order, as we have the discussion is that do you have it available. Andy. Yeah, both. And I, Sean I noticed had to mute and put a screen up so, but I need somebody to let me be allow me to share my screen. I'm not sure if Athena or Sean can do that. You should be all set now. Thank you. Hold on. So the other question is about the project first. No, I was offering to just put them up if you wanted to. Bernie, is it about the, Yeah, I'm looking at the map and that Andy that you sent along and it seems pretty straightforward. There's an existing path that's going to be rehabbed is going to be some new construction of the trail. So it seems to me to be really, really pretty straightforward. Well, Dave's got all his bases covered and has the done. He's got the work plan on the dollars in hand. So the only question I would have is it bridge that's in there up in the upper left hand corner. Is that going to be part of the rehab or, or no. Good, good question, Bernie. Just if I could for those members who were not at the town council meeting or haven't heard about this, just, just to put an emphasis on, you know, I think you're familiar with Hickory Ridge. You can see in the lower right hand corner, you can see where the clubhouse is the former clubhouse the parking lot and the outbuilding is near where I don't know if that's lens or Athena's cursor. So what we wanted to do is still stay well aware away from that area because that is a likely area for redevelopment. If we put a fire station there that is where it would go. There are very few places on this property where development can go. So we don't want to dedicate a portion of the land for permanent passive recreation and somehow compromise our, our opportunities limit our opportunities later so that's why it's over to the to the West. And so in green, just so everyone knows, those are existing cart paths they're either paved or they're crushed stone they're in green, and they're pretty extensive. And then in yellow are the areas that we would add we will rehab the green areas if they're crushed stone and we will add the areas in yellow. And then Bernie's question. We are leaving that bridge which is in pink or that reddish pink color. We're leaving that for now. This grant does not rehab that bridge. That's one of those bridges there are five bridges over the Fort River that are that with the town owns, and we'll really have to decide which ones we want to keep and if there are bridges that go away, which ones are those we have not gotten to that point. We do by way of amp energy we have what's really great is they had to do an engineering study of all seven bridge all five bridges over the fort so we have the benefit of having that engineering study so we know what condition each one of the bridges are in that one's in fairly good condition will probably leave it for now. The grant does not pay for any improvements you can see in the upper left hand corner the Western array that's part of the Western array. And as I said that will be under construction in mid delay January, the arrays will we've arranged a pilot payment in lieu of taxes for the for the arrays that I believe is in the 65 to $70,000 range annually. So that is part of the, the equation out here and the comprehensive plan for Hickory. So, any other questions I'm happy to take. I'm happy about the map, and this came up last night and that is right now you park over here, where my pointer is, and this is built to be an accessible trail, but this area here is the developable land. So, at some point, can we still move, you know, some kind of parking into here, so that it's accessible to the trail and not compromise whatever we might do in this area. Absolutely Lynn and I think I alluded to this the other night but maybe I wasn't clear that, you know, for the time being, for the next couple of years, likely. We will not be breaking ground on anything is my guess in that area for a couple of years as we get, as we get all of our ducks in a row for the large capital projects. If we decide to put a fire station there, we would decide where it would go in the developable footprint. And so the limitations would only be on the area in the blue dotted acreage. It would not be outside of that so we can move the parking wherever we need to move it now keep in mind. To provide parking, this will be the only parking area that I can see for all of Hickory Ridge. So whatever we do with the developable area, it's got to provide more parking than just for this accessible trail. People need to be able to park here to access the entire 150 acres, because we won't have any other parking that is likely all will have because all the other land around it is privately owned and quite limited. So, so we will need to incorporate the parking for the resource within or make it complimentary to whatever municipal use we decide to have there be it affordable housing be it a community center be it a fire station or a combination and is all is all very doable we actually have a we have a landscape architect firm right now working on modeling for us. So they are modeling uses of the developable land where the clubhouse is now. So that'll all be part of the comprehensive plan so you'll be able to see how things can sit and move and what uses might be complimentary. For instance a fire station. You know I'm just throwing it out there fire station may not be complimentary to dense affordable housing, those two uses may not go well together for a variety of reasons. There's a fire station and a small say if we wanted a community center, those would go nicely together, or a fire station and less dense senior housing might go well together something like that. So, so we're doing modeling on where that would fit on the frontage now. And I do have one other question before we go from that. Dave, do you see, I mean, we've actually gone out and walked many of the trails, rough as they are. Do you see over time, trying to get park money for other trail development. Again, Lynn, great question. Absolutely we already have funding through the CDBG program. And, and I know everyone's, you know, balancing a lot of different projects and things we're all working on here staff. So we are already we already have a very well researched extensive trail network. We have a draft for the entire property which includes a north south connection, going all the way up to the brook and mill valley apartments to the north, as well as looping around both solar arrays. So, what we're in the process of doing we have I believe $180,000 in CDBG money to make that north south trail happen and then if all goes well with this ADA trail, we'd have $400,000 to make this trail happen. So, if all goes well with the council on this funding, we would put together what's called a comprehensive notice of intent to the conservation commission for both trails at the same time. Maybe it's better to bundle that as opposed to coming in oh we're going to do a notice of intent for the ADA trail oh now we're going to do a notice of intent for the, for the north south trail no we're going to bundle the whole thing together. Bring it before the conservation commission and needs to go through the commission, the Department of Environmental Protection, and the natural heritage program all at once. And the goal might be if all goes well that we hire one contractor to build the accessible trail, as well as the north south trail at the same time. Thank you. I'm just building on that Dave. I think the map that we're looking at, just as focusing on this part, as I'm remembering the developer that is true. There's more toward the West beyond that parking lot. There's, there's an area. So at some point I don't need it now but for me, I like to see the whole property as much as possible and then move down. And I know you're working on the other trail system but when you just rattled off possible options. Some of us have been thinking about that seven to eight acres you talked about as developable. And so just if we could get the, the full map, and then at some point when you've got the other trails, I'm just. Really different options you just ran off so just some sense of when we, I don't need it now for this issue at all, I'm fine with this but just for me to be able to think of what we're saying yes to and what's coming and when we're going to be making decisions about the other pieces. Right. Yeah, sure. As I said, this grant came up and we, you know, as we often do, we need to take advantage of it but all the elements of the comprehensive plan are not ready and they probably won't be ready till February maybe early March at this point with the loss of two planners and in my department. But I would think that by early March we could present a draft conceptual plan for the council and for the conservation commission and planning board any other committees and boards that'll show all of the different options. And that'll show trail options that'll show development options, ecological restoration options, an amphitheater, you know a number of things that could be done out there. So yeah, the answer is yes, Kathy all is that that is coming. I will say that the developable land you are looking at just about all the developable land if you make a, I think that's Lynn controlling that. So the developable land is right in this map and it is right in that area, as we've looked at this and this will all be covered in the comprehensive plan but it is other than the solar area which was developable for solar, but not for residential or other uses because whatever for for those uses, what you see is what you get for developable land for the most part right in there is the highest, the highest driest and land outside of estimated and priority habitat. So everything to the, my left of the blue line which now is going to be recreation, we're also protecting it for recreation. All of that land is undevelopable because of wetlands or rare species or floodplain. In fact, as you may recall from the council meeting the other night, some of this trail will flood. Yeah, this will flood a number of times in the year but if we design it correctly as a crushed on trail. It should be no worse for where. When the when the water recedes, we might take a tractor over it and rake it and off it goes. But that's why we don't want to put in a trail like get over at the Conti refuge, because you wouldn't want to put a pressure treated lumber trail in there because when you get five feet of water that pressure treated lumber is going to go downstream and you're going to lose thousands of dollars worth of investment. But yeah, we're happy. The short answer is yes, we're happy to share all of that in the next 45 to 60 days with with everybody Kathy. Okay, thank you. Yeah, so I said to Dave some time ago, you know, if you ask 100 people what they'd like to see in this property you're going to get 150 different responses so you know good luck with with trying to compile those. The, the small piece of develop a land that discussions pulling away from the project at the risk of continuing to do that. Our fire department tends to be very data driven. And for one and for two no matter where you want to put a firehouse people won't like. So, my question would be is before we say we could put a fire department here, if we talked to the, to the chief and his staff about what their data tells them in terms of a location and where they were the bulk of the responses are from for primarily for intelligence, because that's where the, the most business seems to be. I think that again the short answer there is. Yes, we have talked to the chief if you talk to the chief, he will say he would be fine with a station at at Hickory Ridge. You know, is it the 100% absolute ideal location, probably a little far south, but not out of the question at all. So I think, when when I move forward, you know, you know, bringing this before various committees and boards I always had in the back by mind that it could be a location for a fire station. And as we grapple with the four capital projects with TPW on, you know, on on South Pleasant Street and the limitations of that site and, and land values going through the roof and and the pandemic etc and inflationary factors. You know, we bought this for 520,000 and if we needed for a South Amherst fire station. Again, I think that's just value added to this bargain sale that we were able to pick up. And again, it's 65 to $70,000 a year in, in, in pilot payments that 520 comes back to us in very short order and, and then if we, we have a free fires, if you will not a free but a very low cost fire station site here. The fire station my understanding is it's about three acres is what a fire station three three and a half acres. Now again there's some topographic changes here we're looking at a flat aerial view here. So I don't want anybody to think if you if you're really curious take a look at the GIS and you'll see topo lines and floodlines and, and rare species habitat and all of that we've already done all that mapping so that's why we know where development can go here and we'll share that with you in the coming months. I, Dave, I think that all project land purchase and everything else is is very worthwhile and very, very well handled. My soul concern in terms of placing the fire station and this property would be, you know, is it going to have an adverse impact on response time response time totally get it. And I guess, which I said they're very sophisticated in terms of the use of data, if they feel that it's not going to have an adverse impact on the response times and it's suddenly a viable site and I agree with you that it would be a bargain. I know Lynn has worked on that issue as long if not longer than I have so happy to have other voices. I think it's maybe a little early but I just wanted to put it out there that it's certainly possible from a land use standpoint to fit a fire station here. Yeah. There's so many other factors involved but it's a viable site best site best available site I mean there's so that's fun, which one you pick from. Yeah, that's good. So that has to ask and then switch over to the order is what's on the screen after Matt introduces his question because we need to move to the order. Matt. Thanks Andy. Yeah Dave I want to echo what's been said it's really an exciting project and great value. I guess my, my question is, and I am toggling over to the larger map that's posted on the, on the site the Hickory Ridge website just to get my head around it a little bit so develop there is no, there is no develop a developable land. North of the rivers that correct. And the land that could be developed north of the river is being developed for solar. And it's important to keep in mind that we came into, we didn't structure the deal the way it is just as a reminder, solar was already planned before we got into the deal so the only reason we got the, the bargain sale of 520 was some of the value was already taken with those two solar arrays. So. And then my other question just, and I know that fire that, you know, generally this is the location that fire wants to be I think, is there an acreage. Do you have an acreage estimate for DPW yet and a sense for I mean, ruling this out for DPW. Yeah, that's a good question DPW the footprint for DPW is at least twice as large as, as fire. I have always said and I'll be consistent to say that the ecological sensitivity of this site. Procludes trying to move DPW from the edge of the Fort River upstream where we know DPW you know just by the nature of its operations it is an impactful operation and we all depend on it. But to move it down to this area. This is the developable area is very long thin and narrow here there's no depth to it. We're looking at sites around town where DPW would have kind of a rectangular squared a rectangular site that might be seven eight nine acres in shape and easily accessible from two sides so. So that's kind of the lenses by which we're looking at DPW so we've never, you know, we looked preliminarily at this site and ruled it out fairly quickly as a site for DPW, but early on said fire would fit nicely and it would be a compatible use. Yeah, we are working on some other sites for DPW. Yeah. All right and no part I mean there's okay and the other my other question I think you answered already there is no other parking option than the current existing spot for it. No. Yeah that's basically true so. So we will make connections to this property via, as I said via the Brook condominiums Mill Valley apartments where we're dialoguing with both the leadership of the Brook and Mill Valley. We, we also will make a connection out to West Street, so that people can walk and bike from the neighborhoods to the north of Hickory over to Mission Cantina El Comolito, etc. Over in the Village Center, but we don't have parking we don't have public land in either site that would be conducive to parking. So most of the parking will be here. Right now just to give you a sense, I think there are about 115 to 120 parking spaces in that parking lot right that you see on the screen. We need 100 parking spaces for conservation, open space, recreation interests at Hickory Ridge. No we do not. So in scope and scale we clearly do not need that much square footage for a parking to support the recreation and conservation uses. So I think that gives you a little sense here that that you could have a fire station you could have a community center you could have some housing whatever, but also have a modest public gateway to the land in a smaller parking lot. So, yeah, even where the cursor is for instance, potentially there. Or you might frankly that might be where your fire station is I don't want to preclude anything at this point because there's some topographic and other issues there there's a couple of streams that even come in. So think of the if you've been over to the Conti refuge over on Moody Bridge Road. That's a very popular spot they get over 50,000 visitors a year use that trail. Their parking lot. Maybe 25 cars, maybe. So just to give you a sense. We're probably looking at a, you know, a 2025 car parkings a lot. That's a sense Matt does that answer your question. Well that's really good context but the size of a lot too I didn't realize it was that big so that that's a game changer and I think it's a really cool idea I mean there's a lot of, you know, we can always do more mixed use and mix access things and so you know a trailhead that goes past the fire station I think is wonderful, you know it's great. You know, and again really important that context that is a huge parking lot. The fact we're using it right now to help Caracas construction stage for the Pomeroy Village Center so you get an idea. When you drive by there and you kind of go, oh, that's over 100 cars. We do not need a trailhead parking for 100 cars this isn't a national parkers. You know, we're even the notch visitor center, you know, when you go up to the notch visitor visitor center sometimes you see that that place packed. I don't think we'll ever need something that large. This is not going to be that big of a destination. That's great thank you. Anybody object to switching to having the order on the screen now and being able to talk about it and then we can get towards a conclusion of today is planned. I'm going to start with one thing that has been on my mind for a little while, and that is I looked back on the order for the CPA. And if I've got the correct order it is actually in 2307 a that allocated $150,000 of CPA funds for Hickory Ridge trail improvements. So, I need Sean to confirm it eventually that I have that correct. But if it is then there's, it needs to be listed consistent with what's in on the website where Athena puts all of the orders. Andy, what are you questioning. I think it was in a that it's if I, because I looked earlier in the day was 20. It's counsel order 23 dash oh seven you're saying it might be 23 a dash oh seven or 23. 2307 was broken out into ABC, or there was multiple parts to it. Yeah, I'll double check. But I think it was $150,000 was allocated in 20 in that order for Hickory Ridge trail improvements. Yeah, it was 150, but Dave is not requiring all that for this for this match. Right, we're just saying we need we need 120 of the 150 to make this match happen the other 30 is is on on diff, you know on unattached not attached to this trail that that 30,000 can still be used on other trails at Hickory. Do you follow that I would can combine with CDBG money that you otherwise described. Correct. Yes. Take care of the north south trail and any other trail improvements that are necessary. Correct. So we'll get the order and order 23 of its part a we'll we'll add whatever Sean and Sonya determine on. At the end 2307 a. Okay, thank you. Thank you, Athena. I think that you've already answered. Most of my other questions that I had without realizing you were. So, as far as Sonya everything else that you have is adjusted for one and I, I may have one other question that I'm going to go to Matt and Bob whose hands are up. And if they haven't gotten to the thing that I was trying to frame a question around to come back. Bob. Matt, that was first. It met hand. It was a relic. Sorry. Bob was next and I saw that. Alicia's hand was up briefly. So see if she isn't but go ahead. Alicia had to leave. So the record should show that she's lucky. I had a few questions about sort of qualifying or just make sure I understand. In paragraph a here. You refer to map 19 d parcel 10. Is that exactly the area that's delineated on the map. Or is it larger than or smaller than that particular area. Um, I'm sorry, Matt, you were asking whether. Whether you, you know, the map that you showed with the dotted lines around the. Oh, yes, I got you now. Yes. Yeah, parcel 10. So the language is important here. It says the care custody and control of a portion of Hickory Ridge. It says the existing of the land. So parcel, uh, assessment map 19 D parcel 10 is the entire. 150 acres. So we are simply saying a portion of that containing 17 acres is transferred from the town manager to the Recreation Commission. Recreation purposes. Okay. I just was, it was a little confusing. The other question is, is there a zoning change that's required for this? No zoning, no zoning doesn't affect zoning in the least. The zoning is a outlying residential. It's not a very, you know, yeah, it's outlying residential, but there's no zoning impact whatsoever for this. I should say that the actions in part a are very similar. We did a very similar thing when we accepted the park grant at. Park and Kendrick Park. We again, carrot and stick. The state says we'll give you this money, but you town of Amherst have to make sure you dedicate that land so that you don't change your mind five years from now and turn that park into a. Whatever a school site or a wastewater treatment plant or a parking lot or whatever. So. I understood. Will there be any delineation on the ground of where this parcel begins or where this area is preserved begins and where it ends. No, but we, there won't be any real delineation on the ground, but we will need to survey this and record it at the registry of deeds. So it will go in. And be recorded so that in perpetuity, people will know that 100 years from now the town, you know, I don't know 100 years from now the Fort River dries up and doesn't flood there anymore in the town wants to do X, Y, Z there. The town will need to keep it for passive and outdoor recreation purposes. So there will be a there will be a survey that goes on record with this. It might be worth considering like it's just a signage at the beginning of, you know, the cart path, you know, you're entering a conservation area or something like that, when the time comes. Yeah, we will have to have on the kiosk both the reference to the park grant, as well as a reference to CPA dollars were used in this process. And then the final question I have about the order is, it's actually in. Oh, it's in be the $400,000 is that only for this parcel or is that for the entire Hickory Ridge 150 acres. No, that is the 120 from the CPA and the 280 from the grant is only for this trail. Okay, so the 400,000 is is that it's the for the 120 plus the 280. Correct. Okay, thank you. Just need that clarification. This is a great project. Thank you. Yeah, while you were mentioning needing to get a recording of the specifying exactly the land being transferred. Does that description or should that description actually go in the order. This order was approved by both our town attorney and the administrator for the park grant program Andy so at this point, if neither one of those experts feels like we need to do that, then I do not really want to go down that path. So we will, you know, they will get record the park grant program will get record that we, if the town council takes this action that they took this that action on, hopefully on January 9. And we will record a certified copy of the vote and a survey of the 17 acres. And we will have met the grant requirements. It's sure who reviewed it. Yes. I don't know. I might want to ask that you asked your in that question just to be sure. Andy what can you repeat what you're proposing to. The question is that I don't what necessarily the answer I just want to make sure that we've done it right. Whether the description of the land, the actual what we're transferring the set, the 17 acres and how in needs to be more fully described in the order. I don't know whether this. I think that's it. I will ask her we what we may do is adds some language such as as per a plan recorded in the Hampshire County registry of deeds something like that. We don't want to get into putting we never get into putting a description, you know, a surveyor's description of the land in an order. We have never done that. So I just want to avoid setting some sort of very detailed precedent about that. I did write the order as I mentioned before. Actually, I guess Sonya and Sharon wrote the order together so yeah I guess that I just refer that somebody had asked her in and she said no no I'm fine with this the way it is. She did review, she did review this review it with that question that's the only thing. Unfortunately, I'm a, I have a habit of times of thinking like a lawyer myself. And then I ask the appropriate lawyer KB lawn, they either agree or disagree. I'm happy to send it to Sharon right now. There's one other question I have about the order but I want to get Kathy's question questions first. I'll come back to my other. Any mind mind actually goes with yours. We're looking at a picture and a map. Could we attach it to this order. So we all know what we're looking at as, and it, you know, I know it's not precise things, but it's, we've got a visual. The intention that this is a package that it goes with the order the map goes with the order, and then we would have a survey of the map the 17 acres be done and then record it as a package. Yes. So to me that then is answering both Bob's first question is that what we're talking about just the 17, you know, the map so if Sharon is double reviewing this, that knowing that the map is attached to me is we have to serve that that piece but we don't know what the piece we're talking about. It's, it shows pretty where it starts and where it ends. So I'm adding it as a, if the map is attached is that enough so to, I'm just building on Andy's question and I'm fine with it so. Yeah, Andy can I just quickly say I'll just insert the, the Sonya common refrain that it's all in the memo. If the memo includes the map and includes the order. The order of goes along with the order so you know we can ask her in those questions but it all is together in the memo packet for this order. Yeah, my other question and I see Bernie's hands up with it Bernie if you don't mind. So at the very end of the order. It says that, however, no funds shall be expanded until the town has received a grant commitment. We also need to be saying in that section, and the land has been transferred to the recreation department. So this order transfers the land doesn't it. It gives authority to transfer the land. It's doing two things. Because it's authorizing the transfer the land, and then it's setting up the expenditure of the funds and the commitments to go with that. The last phrase sets the condition that says that no, no grand anticipation note. No funds will be issued no funds will be expended until certain things happen. Because one of those two things have to be in addition to the grant commitment. Does there have to be a second one that says the transfer has been made to satisfy the grant requirement. I guess. I'll say one thing and then I'll ask a question Andy one is, I'll say this the grant administrator who has been doing this a long time, didn't think that statement at the end was necessary it was it's fine to put it in there but she did think it was required to put in there because in fact, normally this vote would be happening months ago but because of delays in getting the grants out and whatnot. We already know we got the grant so so the town has already received a grant commitment in the amount of $280,000 to to some degree. That is a little redundant that last sentence I don't think it does any harm. But I guess the other thing I would say is that if we're thinking about what the state needs, the state has already reviewed this multiple times and they feel as though the language, and they do this you know they I don't know how many park grants are not statewide but dozens and dozens and they, they review this and said this meets our requirement so. So, you know, I think part a and part B meet their requirement and again they said well you know that that last sentence is a little superfluous at this point, because you've already received official notification from the executive department of environmental affairs that you got the $280,000 grant. So, so I don't know. Okay, no that's I think they're sad, I think they're satisfied that that's a helpful response. But I will send you know whether we need to add some reference to a plan, you know, recorded in the Hampshire County register of deeds or something like that to accompany the order does make some sense to me. So the second point that I just raised, I think that you've answered if we have, because the way this reads, it isn't obvious that we have received the written commitment from the state yet. But we, but since you say that we have that changes it. So it's probably you're right it's probably not necessary if we've got that written commitment. Let's see who is next in order. Hey Ernie I think I have a feeling you're probably going to say what I was going to say, but thanks I just just to a couple of points I'm always happy to benefit from our chairs thinking like a lawyer, which he's really good at, and I appreciate it. I think the boundaries still is boundaries are set. And so I would think for our friends in the park, doing the park grants and the like. This, this diagram would be more than sufficient. I don't know that you need to do meets and bounds and all like it's one and for two I do agree that that sentence about we don't get the $280,000 you can't do anything. That's unnecessary because someone you would would refuse to to sign any, any, any papers regarding this project if she didn't know that there was funding for it. So she can. So that's, that's just my little couple of little comments thank you. That's not notwithstanding the Sonya loves my projects. I know that Bernie did Dave we most of us love your projects. I just find it hilarious because of some of the discussions that you and I have had that we have a project here where we may have too much parking. Is Sonya on this call I don't think she is. But Sean, Sean knows how much she loves my complex complicated projects with 20 moving parts, or 120. Those are another question I think was Matt you had your hand up and then don't. I'm just a time I'm good. Okay, so I'm trying to think. I think emotions in order. Yeah, and I was going to say that I was going to move to recommend to the town council. Approval of order of council order. 23 dash 20 a to final review by the town attorney. Just leave it at that. I won't say what that final review is but I think we know that it's the question that I posed earlier. I don't think we need to be more specific, because if we just could. If we hear that Sharon or somebody else it can't be lost and yep we answer that question it's done. So, again, motion that I seconded. Okay, then the motion I'm going to read one more time is moved to recommend to the town council approval of council order 23 dash 20 a subject to final review by the town attorney. I've been made and seconded and Andy I'd like to have it say council order FY 23 dash 20 a Hickory Ridge property. So I'm just amending it to add in the FY and the title Hickory Ridge property. Okay, got it. So the motion should read as suggested by Lynn I because I'm the maker of the motion she was a seconder. So it's moved to recommend the town council approval of council order. FY 23 dash 23 dash. Hickory Ridge property to final review by the town attorney. Kathy has her hand up Kathy. Andy, we added an a on order 2307 a can we just assume that Sean has the word copy and he's adding the a so we don't have to say as amended because we actually made that one small change in the order. Make the change but I, I, I took a screenshot of this that I will send to Sean and David and Athena. So I'm fine with it I'm just saying that we added an ace and I don't want to make that motion longer I'm just assuming that change is already in it is what I'm what I'm voting on that changes in it. Lynn is, I think it's fine because someone is going to make sure that fun. That's the order that we're approving is as without using words as amended. Yeah, I didn't want to say a minute I just want to make sure we're approving an order with that a unit so mentally I can make that leap. Sean is still not with us. I'm here. I'm here. Yeah, we'll make sure that the order that goes to the council has it as the a and okay. So, unless I see hands going up on the start calling for vote from members present and I do not see no hands so, Lynn. Excuse me, I have to unmute. Oh, I mean, I, in favor. And Bob before and Matt support. Bernie support. Michelle is absent Kathy. Yes. I am a yes and Michelle is absent. I was just absent. So, we are three in favor. None opposed to counselors absent and three members and support. And so the motion carries. And David, thank you. Good. Thank you all very much for your questions and I've already put it out to share in the question that that Andy posed about including more specific reference to the to a plan in there. And yeah, and I, I knew that when we when we brought this forward it would we're sticking our toes in the Hickory Ridge pond here and it elicits all these questions well what's coming what's coming oh boy we so I totally get that and we're all excited and as I said that we will work on the comprehensive plan to get to all of you and various other boards and committees in the next 60 days or so we have lost two planners in the last four weeks so we're still grappling with that a little bit. I'm glad that Ben Breger who was working on this project is no longer with the town so that was quite a little punch in the stomach for for me because he was kind of my right hand person so we'll get there, but thank you all. Thank you and we're not sticking our toes in the pond. It's just it's a river actually river. Oh, there are some bonds out there too so. Anyway, thank you all. Happy holidays. You too. Bye bye now. So, a few things really that I hope can be really quick. I was thinking that we could think about information that we need to develop to have answered in our next meeting when we're going to get back to having a substantial conversation, again about residential property tax fee. Other than try and brainstorm it as a group. I was wondering if I could just ask the members of the committee and I will send this out as a memo also send questions through me and then I will assemble any questions I receive and forward them to this co sponsors and to Sean to see that we can then form the conversation next time. And if that's an acceptable way to proceed then we don't need to spend any more time today talking about it. Kathy. I think that sounds fine. Could you do me a big favor and attach it what we're looking supposed to be looking at because I. It's not in today's packet. I just don't know which packet to look at so if you were just my understanding is we're just talking about the special legislation document, which I think is appropriate and I understand why. So, if you would just attach it it would be great. Okay, I will do that. Anything else on this topic, if not, then the other thing that I wanted to do two quick things. One is about minutes. I had hoped I would get further with minutes but didn't but I did spend about an hour on one set which is September 13 2022. And I now have it complete so I would move that if it's agreeable to the group to accept the minutes of September 13 2022 as amended. So moved. In second, I second. Okay. So just do a real quick vote so we can have a vote on the minutes. And then I have one last thing and we can be done. So, for the minutes. Lynn. I Bob. Matt support. Bernie support. Michelle is absent Kathy. Yes. And I'm yes, and so we're back to three to zero two members absent of the council members and the support of the three resident members. We don't have a date set for further meetings and I was going to ask we had been in agreement for the fall meeting on the day following council meetings. So there would be Tuesdays, the day after council meetings. At 3pm. And if we have agreement to that. We should just do it. I actually have a conflict with that date at three o'clock. I have a conflict with that date at three o'clock. And which one? On January 10th. On January 10th. It's from three o'clock on, I have a conflict. Is that just that day? It's just that day. It's a very odd situation. Where, and it's something I can't change. I could meet earlier that day or I could meet Thursday. I'm not with two members absent. I'm either have to myself or through Athena send out a poll to make sure that the Thursday that three is acceptable. So anybody present to would not be available if we can do it on the Thursday. You know, I'm both, I'm fine with that. And I'm also fine with meeting earlier on Tuesday. So I think it was Michelle. And I know Matt had issues in terms of what happens with that Tuesday afternoon. Alicia seems to be able to seize an hour. So I'm just saying that I, I'm fine with both. Is there any objection to asking about both possibilities? I would really like that because it turns out I also have a conflict of four o'clock on Thursday. Sorry. One would think that my schedule wouldn't be this jammed already, but it is. So why don't we put out there under the circumstances then. Tuesday one and Thursday two. This is the 10th and the 12th Andy. Yes. Yes, it would be the 10th would be at one and the 12th would be two. Okay. So I'll compass it all in one single memo. So with that, I have no further business nothing that is in the unanticipated category. We did not have on the agenda to talk today about the regional school funding and the meeting that was the four town meeting. I'm not sure that it was an essential item. We may want to schedule a time to talk about it before the next four town meeting. So I will try and bear that in mind. So is there anybody else? So is anything and if not, I wish everybody a happy holiday and declare ourselves adjourned. Thank you. Happy holiday. Thank you. Thank you, Athena. Thanks everybody.